What would be a better use of audio?

[Garthilk]

Lots of people I talk to about MMO’s tell me they turn the game sounds off and listen to CDs/MP3s during their play sessions and I’ve done this from time to time. Personally I feel sounds and music are as important to maximizing immersion as graphics and storyline.

I’ve been spending a lot of time thinking on this subject and have developed some ideas on how to make better use sounds and music. Now I'd like to get some ideas from you guys.

Questions:

1) What sorts of things could developers do to get players to want to listen to in game audio instead of turning it off and listening to CDs/MP3s? (Besides making sure the music isn’t repetitive and doesn’t suck)

2) What uses for audio would increase your feeling of immersion in the game world?

3) In what ways do you think audio could be used to add to the gameplay of an MMO?

[Rayado]

1. In opinion menu allow for players to choose music preference. This will allow people to choice the type of game music they want to hear. Face it, A 60 year old woman doesn't want to listen to the same genre of music as a 16 year old boy. Add music style to match the player then make that style if the game. Like both classical music and Rock music have fast and slow pace music. Assign the fast pace to match with combat with slow pace for more town settings.

2. Need sound effects for EVERYTHING. more the better. One of the best ways to tell what is going on off camera is to listen to the sound effects. If a large enemy group is approaching from behide make armor rattling sounds effects. Have them start out soft for far away and get louder as the distance decreases.

3. See #2.

[Rabbitman]

Use sound to let players know what is going on around them so that the world isn't only "my monitor width" in size, but make them differing SFX so that they don't get annoying or repetitive. (Or both.)

Realistic voices when players and NPCs talk is great, but the option for subtitles is a nessesity, as some accents are too hard to hear, and some players are still suffering from eardrum damage from that party they just came home from.

basically, if the world actually sounds like different people and different places, then it will be mroe immersive, and will add to the gameplay.

Don't do SFX for the sake of it, and if you make that fact known, the one time you DO hear a wolf howl when you're alone in the woods, you WILL yourself.

[Gamut]

I'd like to be able to switch off various sounds and keep others. I'n not keen on arbitrary background noise that's irrelevant to the location you are in. I'd also like to be able to change the sounds so I only hear the important audio cues. Other than that, the ability to turn off music and such, like all games.

To me, immersion is nice while solo or while doing something new in PVE. On the other hand I don't want music blasted at me every time I enter a fight and pointless sounds when I'm trying to hear my team-mates in voice-comms.

EDIT: missed some words out.

[Grimjakk]

Personally, I'm a real fan of the ambient music from DAOC... when done right, it really adds to the feel of the game.

But there should definitely be an option to turn it off and substitute your own music without losing the rest of the environmental sounds.

[Siegmen]

I like sound cues and mood setting but it is hard to do 'right'.

Make all sounds be for a reason. If im in the sewers its ok to hear water dripping in the background at the begining but it should fade to nothing as I continue on in the zone (just as continuous noises get 'tuned out' IRL) repetitave noises are annoying. Please don't key sound events to a location on the floor...nothing worse then knowing 'ok, go left two times, hit the scream intersection, then head north, and you'll find the room.'

I agree with hearing of footsteps/armor/various noises from approaching enemies.

In the end, the general player base only uses what gives them an advantage. If you play a game over the years then the 'same-old same-old' will get old. The more the sound effects gameplay and provides advantage, the more people will want to listen to the game sounds.

[Kaitos]

Let the sound play a purpose. While you don't want to make it overly frustrating for a character, if they're not paying attention to the sounds of a creature running at them from behind then they should be take considerable damage, if not be outright killed. As was said, if a wolf howls, let that mean there's some in the area. Maybe not outright make the sound come from the wolf, but say you ONLY hear the sound if wolves are within a certain radius of you. And in increments it can get louder, perhaps. Bird songs are nice as well, with variations for morning, noon, evening, and such. Crickets chirping, and everything.

As for music. I'll be playing with it on, but have it be an option to turn off. Perhaps the player will turn the music off and put their CD in, but leave the sound effects on. Hopefully not, but also offer a variety of music for different areas. I'm not sure how much of the world will be included just yet, but for example. If I'm in Reikland, I should hear music with Germanic influences. If I'm in Brettonia, I should hear music with French influences and such. I'm not so sure about the rock music idea, as I'm not sure if it could be incorporated, but if it is... in my personal opinion, I'd love to hear original pieces. I think it could have it's place, a battle starts and suddenly you get dueling guitar solos and... yeah... haha.

Ambience is key, it should fit the mood of the place, possibly varying throughout the day so it's not repetitive, and also be long enough that I'm not hearing the same piece every five minutes.

Okay, that's more for my preferences of the game. But I think variation and well written music would be key to hooking different audiences. Also, perhaps you could have two or three options for types of music overall. Though then the size of the game devoted to sounds would be HUGE.

[JonesyMan]

Assign the fast pace to match with combat with slow pace for more town settings.




Most MMO's do this already.

Sometimes no sound at all can make for a nice experience. Say if your deep inside a dungeon, no light except your torch, and only the muffled sound of you and your comrades foot steps is all you can hear (ok some sound). Then, the dreaded black beast of catle AAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!! attacks from the bowls of the darkness. Very scary.
Sound should be a very big part of the game, not just filler or fluff.

[Gamut]

Proper surround sound support would be nice aswell, rather than every sound coming from the centre.

[Garthilk]

You know surround sound is something that I don't think has been used to a great effect either. It would be nice to see something like this added. Good point.

[Sonofathel]

yeah we should see (or hear should I say) surrond sound. I said it in another thread, I was so annoyed when I unwrapped and plugged in my brand new surrond sound speakers, looking forward to playing WoW with them. The finding out it doesn't support surrond really annoyed me. I want to actually hear that wolf from behind my pc chair, not from all the speakers around me, unless I'm surronded of course lol.

[Garthilk]

I know all sound is overhead in the memory. But here's hoping that the sound in WAR rocks.

[Commentaris]

1) What sorts of things could developers do to get players to want to listen to in game audio instead of turning it off and listening to CDs/MP3s? (Besides making sure the music isn’t repetitive and doesn’t suck)
nothing i'm afraid. musical tastes vary to greatly to please everybody with just 1 soundstrack.

possible solution: multiple soundtracks, ranging from 'happy and upbeat' to "dark and sinister' to 'calm and serene'.

2) What uses for audio would increase your feeling of immersion in the game world?

non-looped audio. instead linear and random would do it for me.

example: i 'm standing near a busy road, i hear the sound of cars and people alking by talking. this isn't constant, there are lulls in traffic, but these lulls dont come at the same time every time. it's more or less random. if i move away from the road, the traffic noise is still there, but faint, and perhaps a new noise has become more prominent.


3) In what ways do you think audio could be used to add to the gameplay of an MMO?

difficult. i can't see how really. audio should be pretty low-key, else it becomes damn annoying. any sound when heard repeatedly becomes annoying...well to me anyways.

[Hyrus]

1.) This is an inevitability. However, music that's varied, with multiple tracks per themed area goes a longer way than a simple, one track per minor area.

2.) Footsteps. Ambience (rain, birds, wild animals, eruptions - depending on the environment). Hearing birds in a forest, a friend run by or the chaotic explosions of magma spewing fissures in the distance do a lot for me.

3.) Not much that I can think of that hasn't already been done. As I said in another post, battle music that is the same, exact song that fades in with the normal with more emphasis on drums and bass would be less "breaking" then stand alone tracks that we've been hearing since EverQuest.

[LiquidShaDow]

I can't really define in my own words what works. The ambient music must create a mood without being intrusive. What worked for me well, was Diablo and Diablo2. They were great.

[Ruinx]

Questions:

1) What sorts of things could developers do to get players to want to listen to in game audio instead of turning it off and listening to CDs/MP3s? (Besides making sure the music isn’t repetitive and doesn’t suck)

2) What uses for audio would increase your feeling of immersion in the game world?

3) In what ways do you think audio could be used to add to the gameplay of an MMO?

1) First off, they need to make the music, good, original, and recognizable, but at the same time, they need to make it fade into the background enough that it's not annoying. A tricky balance, but certainly one Guild Wars managed.

Secondly, they need to grow some balls and realize many people will turn the music off no matter how good it is, and incorporate MP3 player/CD-player controls into the game interface, and make it you can control the music volume *in-game*, see tracklists (at least to some degree) *in-game* and so on. If they don't want people alt-tabbing a lot, if they want people immersed, this is important. Controlling the volume of outside-game music in-game would also allow players to easily keep it so they could still hear sound effects.

2) Atmospherics are vital. I'd like some sharper and more varied atmospheric noises than previous games, where they always seem to be a bit fuzzy. Still, progress is somewhat inevitable there. Footstep noises should exist and reflect what material you're moving on. I'd also REALLY like to hear them reflect how fast you were moving and how large/heavy your character was. WoW does a nice subtle thing where you can hear what armour-type you're wearing too.

NPC voices, even if just greetings and the like would be nice. I'd personally really like to NOT see the "third-wall breaking" stuff of WoW where if you click a lot they get angry, that always broke my immersion, personally.

3) I really want the sound to tell me what's going on. I violently dislike games where the sound is there as a sort of "trimming" rather than to provide actual information. Especially in combat, the noises I hear should tell me a story. There should also, ideally, be a variety of non-identical but recognisably similar noises for the same effect (a shield block with a mainly wood or leather shield should have 2-3 different "thunk" or "whunk" noises for when it's hit). This is especially true of games where reactional-type attacks take place. Dodges and Parries in WoW have annoyingly indistinct sounds (they don't penetrate the brain) and I'd like to see things more like the distinct parry "clang" in DAoC.

One thing I'd personally like is a NOISE when you come into range with a spell or bow. I bloody hate having to stare at a bar or modify my UI so I can see when I come into range for something (DAoC's "edging forwards casting" is even worse). My wife made us a UI mod which does this in WoW, and it's an excellent piece of kit, saves a lot of bar-staring and provides useful info. Such a thing should have an on/off toggle, of course.

Overally, I want to see sound as INFORMATION, not just "trimmings". The eyes should not be the only source of information-gain in an MMO.

[Snorri]

NPC voices would keep people more focused on the enviroment, as would battle cries and monster's blood curdling screams.

Maybe even like in Oblivion, where random civilians would walk up to each other an begin chatting. That may be too tricky/laggy to do though... I have no idea :D.

Audible battle cries would be awsome in massive battles though, as large groups of players rush towards each other.... could be overused however.
Good ambience music to add to the enviroment, etc, etc.


Ultimatly though, people will still use their own music when going on killing sprees or making their PvP videos :)

[darkblade_the_Great]

If you would like people to use the in game sound more make it matter. Not just background music and birds chirping. Make it so that it effects game play. You can hear enemies coming, mosters sneaking up, ect. Maybe make it so that moving/sneaking slowly doesn't make a lot of noise, but a giant orc running at full speed in plate with skulls hanging everywhere makes a lot of noise. Then people will have a reason to keep the in game sound on(so they know how loud they are being, or can hear others). Other wise no matter how good the music is(if that is all that is there), a lot of people are going to turn it off because after 2 years it will get old.

[Velns]

NPC voices, even if just greetings and the like would be nice. I'd personally really like to NOT see the "third-wall breaking" stuff of WoW where if you click a lot they get angry, that always broke my immersion, personally.


Okay, I have to object to this one. If you're going to have such, make sure it's not a single piece of looping babble. Especially if it is something triggered by player approach. If it's a bit of jabber they say whenever you appear, they'd better use it infreqently.

I cannot explain the fury that develops after a year or two of getting 'HEY! WANNA BUY SOME FISH!?!?" 5-6 times a day, whenever I pass a fishmonger in EQ2. stabstabstab.

As far as music goes, I agree that there needs to be a functional mp3 player involved. In every mmo I usually go with in game sounds for a few months, then kill the music and swap to a 3rd party audio app.

A different solution, of course, would be to include a robust music configuration tool that allows players to customize the default songs into something else. I cannot convey how nice it would be to select my own music to auto-play for different game segments. Heck, I was tickled pink when I managed to hack into WoW far enough just to change the overly loud and brassy login music.

[Oddin]

Well I have to add that most important sounds in game is definently Ambient sounds..Yes game music tend to go off after couple month's and replaced by some own music. But Ambient sounds really make places live and I've seen it many times that i tend to keep it on. Sound effect's can be good too, but like in daoc, playing a buffer/healer for some time I had to take them off too (some of you might know what I mean ;) ) So I really hope mythic saves a nice chunk of money to get a good sound crew to boost up war.

[Tae]

Basically in relation to actual music Mythic have two choices.

1. They can accept that people will turn it off and so not bother putting any effort into it.

2. They can accept that people will turn it off, but put some effort into it so that this takes much longer and happens much more infrequently than other games.

People need to move away from the idea that there is some kind of Holy Grail of MMO soundtracks, whereby everyone will listen to it. There isn't and they wont. People will always turn the music off because it will always grow stale. Having accepted this I would hope that they then decide to make WAR's music as diverse, as dynamic and as non-repetative as possible.

As for sound effects, as other people have suggested, I'd like them to be more dynamic. I want to hear a wolf howl and know there's one near, not that I've simply gone into some woods at night. This applies to the music as well (as previously stated). If I go into a PvP area, I don't want the 'battle music' to start if there's no one fighting there. I liked the way NWN did it - that the 'battle music' only began when combat actually started. I think this would be an excellent addition to battlefields in terms of both music and ambient sounds.

If I go onto a battlefield and hear screams of the dying, clanging blades and 'magic' noises I want to know that there's combat going on. I don't want to hear all of the above only to spend the nxt 15 minutes running around the area trying to find the fight happening only to discover that there's no one there.

[Lynx]

Ambient Sound doesn't matter in an MMO im sorry to say.

My advice is not to waste dev time or money on composers. Whatever happens players will listen to their own music. Single player games use music to set a scene and bring out emotion and action. In MMOs everything is created by the player, including the playlist.

If anything, just get some royalty free classics like mozart, beethoven and handel and just insert where applicable.

[Ruinx]

Okay, I have to object to this one. If you're going to have such, make sure it's not a single piece of looping babble. Especially if it is something triggered by player approach. If it's a bit of jabber they say whenever you appear, they'd better use it infreqently.

I don't know what you're objecting to, but it's not anything actually in my post... Got your quote wrong? NPCs in WoW don't jabber at you like those freaks in EQ2.

Ambient Sound doesn't matter in an MMO im sorry to say.

I'm "sorry to say" that that's just your strange little opinion, not a fact as you seem to be presenting it. Not only is it a wild opinion running around, it's completely unsupported by any kind of facts, logic, or even an anecdote. Every MMO of the last five years has had ambient sound, and in all the ones I played, it made the game feel more real. Not having ambient sound in a modern game would make it feel as unfinished as not having shadows or the like.

[Velns]

I don't know what you're objecting to, but it's not anything actually in my post... Got your quote wrong? NPCs in WoW don't jabber at you like those freaks in EQ2.

I'm objecting to your request. You asked for NPC voices, but not 'third-wall breaking', like in WoW. I pointed out that NPC voices, as you are asking for, can be absolutely horrible and can causes you to avoid any npc that speaks.

As such, I further requested that any voices given to NPCs for greetings and the like (as you did request in that quote) be infrequent and not looped.

I thought this was clear, but it is apparent that it was not.

[Ruinx]

So you don't think there should be NPC voices at all, just stony silence from all NPCs a la the older generation of MMOs?

[Soss]

Having true surround sound would be great in all environments, but i think more so in the outdoor areas and pvp areas. A player SHOULD hear another enemy approaching, unless of course that person is wearing leather/cloth with some sneaky type abilities. Otherwise they shouldn't just appear out of nowhere suprising you with mail/plate on. It just doesn't make sense, and there should be advantages/disadvantages to certain play styles in the game.

I think voice overs would be great. And i hope that there are voice overs for the characters, and a pleuthora of sounds for the characters; but they have to be distinct. It would be great to queue voice commands if you're in trouble, need a heal, follow, etc etc. I hate typing while I'm in pvp, and prefer something like ventrilo. But if Mythic decides to go against an integrated VoIP deal for WAR, then they should make in game communications during battle as easy as possible.

[Axxar]

I don't like the idea of multiple sound track to appeal to everyones' tastes. People will play the game because they, among other things, are going to like the world of Warhammer. You want music that feels like it belongs in that world. Warhammer Online isn't some generic game that tries to appeal to everyone. It's a fantasy war RPG and the music should be dictated by that, or it will become a mixed, incoherent package.

[Goreth]

Excellent point Gar. Personally, I listen to MP3 music whilst playing MMO's now-a-days.

But I wouldn't like to with warhammer. Imagine listening to classical music or pop or rnb while sieging a castle and reaping havoc. Somehow... it just doesn't fit .

I think music themes should be long, looped and exaggerated. Exaggerated in a way that people really get into the music, and feel travelling to a so and so location is necessary just to listen to that wonderful track!

- It should set of certain emotions
- It shouldn't just be there to fill in space
- It should be looked at and integrated with as much delicacy as graphics

eg. Metal Gear Solid 1/2/3 are my favourites examples of good emotional music that fits the games theme and mood.

[Ruinx]

eg. Metal Gear Solid 1/2/3 are my favourites examples of good emotional music that fits the games theme and mood.

I think from this example, you're not actually thinking about what it's like to play an MMO for weeks, months, and years. The more the music is "emotional" the more the music is "exaggerated", the faster it becomes old, the faster it becomes annoying. It's very simple and clear. Subtle music like that of GW = never gets turned off. Bombastic music like WoW = gets turned off w/in days/weeks of starting playing. It's a simple equation that works across pretty much every MMO. Subtle stays on, bombastic (which is precisely what you're asking for) goes off.

MGS has great music, but think now, how long do you play MGS for? I don't know about you, but I finished MGS1 and 2 in around 12hrs, and I didn't go back and play them again a lot. In total, I probably played the games for less than 24 hours each, and relatively little of MGS1 & 2 actually has music, mostly it's atmospherics or "alert music".

24 hours in an MMO is how long it takes to get to level 20 (in WoW, at least, more like 35 in DAoC nowdays but anyway). It takes most players 240 hours to reach level 60 in WoW. You can bet you if they'd been listening to something along the lines of the MGS soundtrack, it'd been off since 72 hours or earlier.

In short, I think you have it in exact reverse, because you're thinking of games that are the exact opposite of PvP MMOs (entirely pre-scripted single-player games with an extremely linear path and heavy story elements).

[Goreth]

I think from this example, you're not actually thinking about what it's like to play an MMO for weeks, months, and years. The more the music is "emotional" the more the music is "exaggerated", the faster it becomes old, the faster it becomes annoying. It's very simple and clear. Subtle music like that of GW = never gets turned off. Bombastic music like WoW = gets turned off w/in days/weeks of starting playing. It's a simple equation that works across pretty much every MMO. Subtle stays on, bombastic (which is precisely what you're asking for) goes off.

MGS has great music, but think now, how long do you play MGS for? I don't know about you, but I finished MGS1 and 2 in around 12hrs, and I didn't go back and play them again a lot. In total, I probably played the games for less than 24 hours each, and relatively little of MGS1 & 2 actually has music, mostly it's atmospherics or "alert music".

24 hours in an MMO is how long it takes to get to level 20 (in WoW, at least, more like 35 in DAoC nowdays but anyway). It takes most players 240 hours to reach level 60 in WoW. You can bet you if they'd been listening to something along the lines of the MGS soundtrack, it'd been off since 72 hours or earlier.

In short, I think you have it in exact reverse, because you're thinking of games that are the exact opposite of PvP MMOs (entirely pre-scripted single-player games with an extremely linear path and heavy story elements).

Nice point. However, I referred to MGS for it's heavy emotional impact on the player.

I wouldn't expect the same theme of music to be played out in the entire game. I just mean each track in WAR should fit the games location perfectly and well enough to create a bond with the player when they play. So it pumps up their adrenaline or calms them down, or prepares them for war.

The music should be full of variety and played with different instruments, but played with that expertise the player will fall in love with whereever they go.

But everything you said is 100% agreeable.

[Ruinx]

Nice point. However, I referred to MGS for it's heavy emotional impact on the player.

I was going to argue that repetition reduces the emotional impact of music, and it does, but truly well-written and atmospheric music will continue to produce moods and the like, just not quite as intensely.

I just think that music is more likely to work well in the "background" rather than in "foreground". Quiet music which inspires a mood is more likely to be continually effective and to stay turned on than loud or powerful music, I suspect.

Talking about this and thinking about some of the screenshots we've seen does make me pretty excited about WAR in a way I've not been before, glad you made me think about it.