Knights of the Blazing Sun?

[Steel*Faith]

I'm curious why Mythic decided to make the "Knight" class of the Empire dedicated to the Knightly Order of the Blazing Sun (Templars of Myrmidia)? They worship a deity named Myrmidia. Generally Empire citizens do not like the worship of foreign deities, but the Kotbs are respected for their service.

I thought Mythic was trying to portray the Empire as a realm all about "Praising Sigmar". Who really cares about the worship of "Myrmidia", when there's many awesome knightly orders all about praising Sigmar. Not that I don't like the other knightly orders, but it would make more sense to keep the Empire in WAR centered on one important theme, just as Chaos is and the rest.

Good choices for Knightly Orders that worship Sigmar:

THE GRAND ORDER OF THE REIKSGUARD
THE KNIGHTS GRIFFON
THE ORDER OF THE GOLD LION
THE ORDER OF THE HAMMERS OF SIGMAR
THE KNIGHTS OF SIGMAR'S BLOOD

So am I the only one who has thought about this, or are any of you thinking the same, or perhaps you like the Blazing Sun?

[Flegler]

Actually I'm glad that a god other than Sigmar is getting some representation. The Empire's quite tolerant of any cult that isn't overtly evil, you know.

I still think it's outright stupid to have a Knight class dedicated to a single Order though.

[Krulltak]

Knights of Morr would be much more interesting, and REALLY show the lore newbies the dark side of the Empire.

But I like the special forces-esqe Blazing Suns with their fancy spies and "dirty" tactics.

[Petzen]

I think the reason will be more obvious when Mythic tells us a bit more about the class and more about the war between Empire and Chaos. Maybe KOTBS was the only knightly order willing to fight ? who knows what storyline they are working on :)

But atm I have to agree that the choice seems a bit odd.

[Steel*Faith]

I still think it's outright stupid to have a Knight class dedicated to a single Order though.

Yea I agree with. I think they should make it a single knight class, and let you choose a cosmetic knightly theme to serve the order you wish at least. If they are going to have any kind of choice of deity it should be Ulric not anyone else, since Ulric and Sigmar are the primary two dieties. Like I said who cares about Myrmidia, i'm sure most TT players and Lore fans follow or prefer Ulric or Sigmar.

I know they are tolerant of other deities, but obviously Sigmar is the primary diety and it doesn't make a lot of sense to have a class dedicated to Myrmidia when I doubt there will be much of anything to do with her in WAR. I'm sure Empire cities and Churches will all be dedicated to the worship of Sigmar, as it should be IMO.

[Steel*Faith]

Knights of Morr would be much more interesting, and REALLY show the lore newbies the dark side of the Empire.

But I like the special forces-esqe Blazing Suns with their fancy spies and "dirty" tactics.

But we already have a tank that focuses on "dirty tactics", the Black Orc. Not sure if we really need another tank class that fights "dirty". Anyhow when you think of the iconic knight of the Empire, it is human dedicated to the honorable combat in the name of Sigmar or Ulric.

I'm sure you'd agree Sigmar or Ulric based knights are a lot cooler than Myrmidian Temlars lol. I think it would be cool to see Knights of Ulric (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/n4/n24303.jpg) at least with animal furs ect, that would be a nice change from the traditional empire theme.

[Krulltak]

But we already have a tank that focuses on "dirty tactics", the Black Orc. Not sure if we really need another tank class that fights "dirty". Anyhow when you think of the iconic knight of the Empire, it is human dedicated to the honorable combat in the name of Sigmar or Ulric.

I'm sure you'd agree Sigmar or Ulric based knights are a lot cooler than Myrmidian Temlars lol. I think it would be cool to see Knights of Ulric (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/n4/n24303.jpg) at least with animal furs ect, that would be a nice change from the traditional empire theme.


Yesh. Ulric is plain awesome...my favorate Imperial god. But I just can't help thinking he would not work out well in the WAR setting.

[Flegler]

I like Ulric myself but I'm not too keen on the White Wolves, I'd rather have the classic knight with sword and lance.

And two out of four Empire classes are already dedicated to Sigmar! We certainly don't need an order of Sigmarite knights as well.

So the Blazing Suns are as good as any other order, and they can look quite stylish in their black and gold. Still not as cool as a Free Lance though, or a choose-your-order type class...

[Steel*Faith]

And two out of four Empire classes are already dedicated to Sigmar! We certainly don't need an order of Sigmarite knights as well.

Yes we do... the more praising of Sigmar the better.

What Empire doesn't need is false gods that have no real impact on anything pertaining to WAR. Unless the Wars of Araby are going to have any importance in WAR.

A Knightly order in WAR should be an order that is dedicated to serving the Emperor and Sigmar since that is the central theme Mythic is using for WAR's Empire. Maybe the Kotbs of WAR won't have anything to do with Myrmidia worship, that would be great then.

I still don't see why they can't use give players custom color scheme to color their armor, and knightly mount for guilds ect. Hopefully they are doing that though.

[Ruinx]

I don't think it's stupid at all, in fact, I think it's downright smart of Mythic, if they want people to actually, y'know, PLAY the Empire. Sigmar is boring. This is a fact. Sigmar is one of the dullest gods in history of fantasy religion. Lore-fanatics may screech that he's the main Empire god, but he is NOT the only one.

We already have TWO classes dedicated the worship of Sigmar (Warrior Priests and Witch-hunters), one of whom wears plate and represents a quasi-Knightly archetype. Anyone who is truly obsessed with smiting in the name of Sigmar would be off playing a WP anyway.

The idea that "all" Empire churches are dedicated to the worship of Sigmar is dead wrong, that's just a plain lack of setting knowledge right there, so I won't argue any further.

Basically, if they made the Empire all about Sigmar, they'd make it duller, and smaller, intellectually. The Empire is a lot more than just SigmarSigmarSigmar. The Knights of the Blazing Sun show how BROAD the Empire is, show how far-reaching it is, and show, importantly, that Sigmar is not the only god (Ulric might as well be Sigmar, he's so similar, by the way).

As a bonus, they're female-player friendly (it's impossible to deny that there have been female KotBS, unlike other knightly orders, and you have a goddess, instead of a god), which will help the Empire's population, and importantly, they have a very distinct and original look, unlike most of the Knightly Orders proposed.

On top of that, they're not standard, yawnsome "blood and honour!" knights, they're a more meritocratic, tricky bunch, as someone said, almost "special forces"-like. This is important because it means there is much more room for Bretonnia in the long-run.

As for one set of "Knights" and you picking the order? Silly idea, because they'd have to do 5x as much work to just get as much lore etc. as every other class in the game. As for you "not caring about Myrmidia", just because you're willfully ignorant about the setting, doesn't mean you have a point! Really, the KotBS show how original and smart Mythic have been when it comes to creating classes for WAR. It's one of the best decisions they've ever made. It's certainly made me WANT to play the KotBS, when I would have ignored any Sigmarite or Ulric-based order, because they send me to sleep.

PS - You realize this is a GAME right, in a SETTING, Black*Orc? Sigmar is not real, and your ignorance about the setting doesn't justify you apparently making proclaimations like he is.

[Steel*Faith]

Ruinx i'm happy you like the Kotbs, but your wrong Sigmar isn't boring and the majority of Empire fans obviously love Ulric or Sigmar.

Not to mention the Lore is what makes Warhammer great, so I don't see why you have to be a"lore fanatic" to appreciate Sigmar and the many awesome knightly orders serving and worshiping him, for this stupid cult that worships a false god, because a stature fell and killed some Araby king and his guard lol.

Bow before Sigmar.

[Ruinx]

Ruinx i'm happy you like the Kotbs, but your wrong Sigmar isn't boring and the majority of Empire fans obviously love Ulric or Sigmar.

Not to mention the Lore is what makes Warhammer great, so I don't see why you have to be a"lore fanatic" to appreciate Sigmar and the many awesome knightly orders serving and worshiping him, for this stupid cult that worships a false god, because a stature fell and killed some Araby king and his guard lol.

Bow before Sigmar.

You have to be a lore fanatic to say things like "Bow before Sigmar", as well as little mentally unbalanced ;)

Sigmar is incredibly boring. He has no personality whatsoever, ill-defined spheres of influence, and even most Imperials do not regard him as "the only true god", that's just ignorant, which makes you a lore fanatic who doesn't even know the lore! Good grief!

[Krulltak]

Ruinx has spoken, and according to me, Ruinx is now the all-mighty god of saying somthing really smart and never getting a wrong answer.

Therefore, all hail Ruinx and agree with the obviously correct facts that he speaks.

He is right, Sigmar is boring, and GENERIC!

A god of justice, and the destruction of evil. SOUND FAMILIAR?! Like every other "generic anti-evil god #x" we see in every other fantasy setting? HMMMMMmmmmmmmmm?!:???:

I rest my case. For such a unique setting Warhammer still has it's generic themes like drunk dwarfs or generic "anti-evil paladin gods" for a human nation.

[Fusko]

I would've enjoyed Knights Encarmine or Knights of Morr, something a little different from the rest. Knights of the Blazing Sun was a decent choice though. :)

[Steel*Faith]

You have to be a lore fanatic to say things like "Bow before Sigmar", as well as little mentally unbalanced ;)

LoL... Confess! (It's hard to be sarcastic/funny on the net sometimes)

Seriously though, you don't have to be a lore fanatic to love Sigmar and his history. You claim that he is boring, blah blah, I find your reasoning to be boring. How is a Man that is like a combination of Thor, Conan, and Charlemagne a "boring" character? He forged an Empire against vast armies of Chaos, Greenkins, as well other enemies and that's boring?

Your being biased toward your own view, but the vast majority of Empire fans enjoy the traditional Sigmarmarite side of the Empire, and that's why Mythic is basing the Empire in WAR around him.

He is the very foundation of the empire, and there wouldn't be any Empire to serve, regardless of your religious belief, if it wasn't for the mighty God Emperor Sigmar Heldenhammer.

Lastly you don't need to get too personal and serious and start calling people unbalanced over a Kotbs discussion.

[Dustandpolos]

I think the point was more about you calling Myrmidia a stupid false god. I'm going to risk causing a lot of offense here and suggest that, in real life, all Warhammer Gods are fictional. In the lore, Myrmidia isn't a false god; some hardcore Sigmarites might want people to worship Sigmar alone and think Myrmidia or Ulric are rivals for worship, but its accepted these gods do actually exist. Its impossible to be monotheistic when Tzeench, Khorne, Nurgle and Slaanesh are overrunning your lands with daemons. So either way, it doesn't make a lot of sense to call Myrmidia "false". As to stupid, we'll just have to see how much benefit she can be to her followers in-game.

There's no need to get personal though, its clearly just a misunderstanding of lore, not mental imbalance as I'm sure is obvious to everyone.

I think KotBS were agood choice. They add some variety from Sigmarites while still fitting in the the general Empire fire theme (Bright Wizards, burny-burny confession-extorting Witch Hunters, I'd imagine holy fire of Sigmar's vengeance for Warrior Priests). More than that, they are a 'good' knight with divine support, but not a typical paladin class. That's the Warrior Priest. Not a crazy loves-killing berserker-type - that's DPS class. For tank, people want a more pragmatic character, a down-to-earth possibly mercenary-type. Of course, no player character mercenaries in WAR and in a world like this everyone worships gods, but KotBS are as close as you can get to a fight-to-win professional soldier, and Sigmarites can still be portrayed as religious fanatics.

Knights of Morr would be perhaps a little dark in colour - I mean with black armour and images of death everywhere they might look a bit evil to fit with the image. Plus, they're knights of the god of death. Warcraft players might confuse them with Death Knights, who are evil. Other people might think they were in some way related to necromancy, also evil, even though Knight of Morr are actually the avowed enemies of all necromancers. In short, I think they have an image problem just like Slaanesh or Nurgle.

Knights of the White Wolf have this a little; they have a slightly north-german-barbarian look about them. Which is a great look, but they really need to distinguish every faction, and they are a little like better armoured, less chaosy marauders. They don't and can't have shields, which is a big problem for a tank class, and they use hammers. This, imo, was the main problem, as we already have Dwarf Hammerers and Warrior Priests with hammers, so another human hammer class would make them look too similar to Warrior Priests and deny people the right to use a simple sword-and-shield character. I'd like to see Knights of the White Wolf but in an expansion with Middenland included.

[Seldaren]

In one of Paul's vids right around the time the Warrior Priest was announced, I believe he said something to the effect that GW told Mythic not to the Empire all about Sigmar. That they had to include other gods and make sure not to portray the Empire as seemingly unified under the worship of a single god.

Which is a good thing, because the Empire is not united in worship. There's a wide variety of Gods and Goddesses. Sigmar is basically the Patron God of the Empire, since the mortal Sigmar founded the Empire.

The Empire is a very diverse place, and it's people are very diverse too.

As for choosing a specific Knightly Order. How could they not? Making it a generic "Knight" class would've been just that, generic and boring.
And it's not how things work in Warhammer. You don't start out as a generic Knight, and then apply to a Knightly Order. Many of the Knightly Orders are noble-only, so you're basically born into it.
Some of the Knightly Orders are not noble only (like the Blazing Sun), and accept all comers. But again, when you want to be a Knight you apply directly. You don't run around as a patron-less Knight.

Putting in a specific Knightly Order allows for the Lore and Background in-game to be much more detailed, as it can be tailored specifically. That should make it much more interesting and fun to experience.

As for why the Knights of the Blazing Sun... well,
- they're non-Sigmar.
- They follow a goddess of Warfare (specifically Tactical Warfare).
- They are based in Talabheim (Talabecland being a zone in WAR).
- They are not exclusively noble born.

[Steel*Faith]

Making it a generic "Knight" class would've been just that, generic and boring.

In your opinion.

I didn't mean a generic Knight class, I meant a knight class that let's you choose your order when you start the game. This way you could choose your color scheme, or later change your colors the same as your guild instead of black & gold.

My main gripe with Myrmidia is, what has she done for the Empire really? She helped the Knightly orders the final battle in the Crusade in Araby. The way she helped them though seemed to suggest to me that it could have been a divine intervention, or just a natural disaster.

During the fierce street fighting around the temple of Myrmidia, a group of knights found themselves surrounded by the dreaded Black Scimitar Guard led by Emir Wasr the Cruel. Just as the Arabians closed in a sudden earth tremor shook the temple, dislodging a huge bronze statue of Myrmidia riding a pegasus which was fixed on its topmost steeple. The statue plummeted to the ground below, smashing into a thousand fragments and crushing the Emir and his troops.

It just seems to me worship to her is not as significant as Sigmar. He sends down living incarnations of himself to actually help fight the enemies of the Empire. He also inspires great prophets to lead the Empire. So overral Sigmar is much more important to the Empire than Myrmidia, worship of her is not going to win or loose battles against Chaos, worship in Sigmar wins battles and is the only reason they have survived countless invasions.

I don't have a problem with other Empire dieties being represented. It just seems like Myrmidia hasn't played a significant role in Warhammer so far, so maybe Mythic will develop her in WAR. I still feel Ulric deserved a player class over Myrmidia.

[Steel*Faith]

I also want to take a quote from Aster on the forums. i never read Black library books yet so I wasn't aware of these things, yet I still thought Sigmar was amazing already.

Originally Posted by Astner
You forgot adding:
Sigmar also slayed Moknir (A Everchosen, far greater than Archaon) in a war and left the battlefield unharmed, even though he was bare-chested, no armor of any kind.

He enslaved some greenskin tribes as well.

Beat up a Bloodthister so bad it fleed into a portal.--Remember, Bloodthisters are immortal, but he actually put fear in what is supose to be a creature immune to fear.

He also wounded one of those bad- immortal dragons, Abraxes was his name I belive.

Here's a picture of Sigmar.
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/9...riginalpn9.gif

End of discussion. If that's "boring", i'd like to know what's better than that?

[Flegler]

As for choosing a specific Knightly Order. How could they not? Making it a generic "Knight" class would've been just that, generic and boring.


Sir, you are outstandingly wrong. A generic "Empire Knight" class is not at all the same thing as a generic "Human Warrior" class. What other MMO has ever had a 15th century knight in it?

Making all the knights be of one order is going too far in the opposite direction and being pointlessly specific. The WFB unit is a generic "Knightly Orders". The WFRP career is simply a generic "Knight". Why make it any different for WAR? Every order fights the same way, matters of dress and background ought to be up to the individual player.

End of discussion. If that's "boring", i'd like to know what's better than that?
By those criteria Superman must be the best character ever created. Look, Sigmar is all well and good in his way, but the barbarian god-king trope gets a bit tiresome. Myrmidia makes a good foil to Sigmar: they have a lot in common as once-mortal gods of war, while Myrmidia's love of reason and strategy balances Sigmar's demand for zeal and fury.

[Steel*Faith]

Yea I understand what your saying Flegler, I just don't want to be forced to play one knightly order, with one color scheme, when there are so many great ones.

I have my opinion about Kotbs, I think I have plenty of justifications for why I feel the way I do, but it doesn't make me completely right. It's just stupid to see a class that has potential for a lot of customization being locked into one Knightly Order. Especially since this is the first Mounted Knight Class ever for a MMO; and one of the best parts about being a Knight is riding into battle flying the colors of your guild or order you serve.

[Seldaren]

Making all the knights be of one order is going too far in the opposite direction and being pointlessly specific.

Pointless specific? how is that a bad thing?

By being specific, it allows Mythic to tailor the content to a single Knightly Order, instead of having to create content for all of them.

All the Orders have a hierarchy of some kind, and they don't necessarily play well together. A Knight of Morr is not going to do quests for a Knight of Ulric. That would make no sense at all.

So what we'll have is the organization and structure of the Blazing Sun Knights in the game. The NPCs that they report to for quests and other assorted things will all be Blazing Sun Knights.
That doesn't mean other Knightly Orders won't be represented though, they just won't be serving as the Commanders and Captains that players will be reporting to.

It also allows Mythic to tailor the equipment and armor to the Blazing Sun Knights. No Order dresses the same. They all wear different armor, and it goes wayyyy beyond just colors.
Just look at the examples on GW's site: http://uk.games-workshop.com/empire/knights-chapters/2/

The heraldry is all different, the design of the armor is different. To incorporate another Knightly Order is to double that amount of art assets that have to be created.
Incorporating another Knightly Order is also asking create a Quest System for them as well. As the jobs and duties different from Order to Order.

Basically, a single Knightly Order is the way to go. To do otherwise is to take on a massive amount of work, and make the game more complex than is necessary at this stage.

Also, the other Knightly Orders are perfect for expansion Careers later down the road. Knights of the White Wolf and the Knights of Morr being some of the more obvious choices IMO, as they are different enough.

[Vikingkingq]

In your opinion.

I didn't mean a generic Knight class, I meant a knight class that let's you choose your order when you start the game. This way you could choose your color scheme, or later change your colors the same as your guild instead of black & gold.

The problem with that is that it limits the expression of the different Orders to just cosmetics - you couldn't limit Templars of the White Wolf to hammers, etc. And that's a lot of work to program in all the different armor sets, since it's not just color - it's also coats of arms, specific decorations (panther pelts for the Knights Panther, Laurel Wreaths for the Reiksguard, etc.

Giving a single Order its own class allows that class to be distinctively of that Order - a Knight of the Burning Sun is going to fight differently from, say, a Knight Panther (if one was added in an expansion), have a unique set of abilities and tactics, etc.

[Amelung]

Actually I'm glad that a god other than Sigmar is getting some representation. The Empire's quite tolerant of any cult that isn't overtly evil, you know.

I still think it's outright stupid to have a Knight class dedicated to a single Order though.
I hope really for expansions. Then more choices for the four 'classes'. Four classes are surely enough, really, but if only specialists of specialists, then there must be more than one possibility.

Its sure we need only one class 'knights' for empire, but then different choices, (its clear not for release, but later also not only a second, there must be a real splitting 'tree' for the class knight) really again my hopes for expansions. My favourites were everytime the Reiksguard in warhammer, because i like them, and sure now its not possible for a warhammer online game to play the also for miniatures best known and most standart knights.
@Flegler, this discussion was also in other threads topic :), but its clear, for warhammerfans that discussion will never be stopped if you are only able to play special specialists. Warhammer has one advantage and fun for also the tabletopgame. Hundreds of different 'models', also different models of absolutely same 'classes'.

I am also not against specialists, but the player is not able to play known warhammerwarriors. Not able to play a halberdier, to play a musketeer or swordman, not able to play any warhammer 'soldier'. Its also something warhammer stands for, soldiers, not only special heroes. And now we are not able to play all entire possible heroes, only really 'one' possibility for one possible 'elite'. Its few if you like entire warhammer gaming.

Factly all in WAR called classes are very specialists of a possible class. Thats not bad, but sure with later really mucmuch expansions and more choices. Its something i await. Warhammer stands for all war-possibilities and not only for specials. And any knight is also not a musketeer, not a artillerist, never an archer, he is only knight with his equipped for warfare, not more.

Also crafting, there are dicussions how much crafting your char can do. For any knight or priest its impossible to be a crafter, he only acts as warrior.
We will have a game for specialsists, here elite warriors, they never craft equipment, should be fact.
If crafting, then seperated from the men on the front. A KotBs dont make his armour, dont make his sword, dont bake his bread. Its for common crafters (for 'servants' ;)), but not for elitesoldiers.

Also a tpoic should never discussed for warhammer, only presented as fact.

So finally i will say, i want also not more classes or first new nations, more much more possibilities of the existing gameplay, and then 'blow' up the world ;)

[Romple-WHA]

I'd wager it's mostly due to the name. Knights of the Blazing Sun just sounds better than the other orders. You can argue all you want about deities and cults but i get a feeling the argument never got that deep in EA Mythic headquarters.

[Dustandpolos]

Hah! Too true...

[Flegler]

An eloquent refutation.
Frankly I think you overestimate the work that would be involved in making a class with a broader scope, though if any EA Mythic cubicle-serfs are reading this thread they're probably scoffing at my words right now. But anyway, point by point:

A Knight of Morr is not going to do quests for a Knight of Ulric.
I expect the vast majority of quests will be available to all classes, considering the amount of classes in the game. A non-order specific class like Knight-Captain or Free Lance could still have flavourful quests. A Knight class that let you choose your order would probably want a quest for joining each one, but that's still not a vast amount of extra content. Look how many class quests warlocks got in WoW compared to mages: nobody really complained of favouritism as a result.

It also allows Mythic to tailor the equipment and armor to the Blazing Sun Knights. No Order dresses the same. They all wear different armor, and it goes wayyyy beyond just colors.
Just look at the examples on GW's site:
The examples on the website are intended to showcase the most unusual or noteworthy orders of the Empire and encourage conversion. Most Knightly Orders, the kind you can build with a standard-issue box of plastic miniature parts, do use the same equipment. The main difference is in the colour of their armour, their heraldry, and one or two accessories.

Armour: Let each piece of plate you put on take on the colours of your regiment. Not hard to implement.

Heraldry: all this requires is a single symbol per order suitable for sticking on a shield, banner or horse's arse. Other games have provided similar features for guild heraldry.

Accessories: laurel wreaths, panther skins, blazing sun headdress - this does admittedly take a bit more effort. But we're assured there will be a variety of things to put in our character's accessory slots, and each order would only need one piece of signature gear. Also quite feasible.

Also, the other Knightly Orders are perfect for expansion Careers later down the road. Knights of the White Wolf and the Knights of Morr being some of the more obvious choices IMO, as they are different enough.
This is never likely to happen. A new Empire Knight career would be barely distinguishable from the existing one, and there are far too many other options for interesting and diverse classes. It would take far less effort in the long run to deal with Imperial chivalry in a single, comprehensive career.

- Der Flegler, driving people away from game design debates with nitpicking walls of text since 2006

P.S.
Nah, Reiksguard sounds elite and I like the germanic name, it fits well with the Empire theme of Medieval germany.
Reiksguard would be a good fit if we don't get mounted combat, and they are more representative of the Empire, so you have a point there.

Knights of the Blazing sun is centered around Araby which doesn't have much to do with WAR most likely.
That's just not true, they're unique to the Empire. They were formed by Imperial knights whe were fighting in Araby, which is perhaps where you're getting the misconception.

We haven't heard much from Mythic about the Kobts, but it's possible they are changing the Lore and might make Kotbs a Sigmar worshipping order.
They're not, because that would be silly. If they wanted a Sigmar worshipping order they would have used one. Enough bloody Sigmar already!

[Steel*Faith]

I'd wager it's mostly due to the name. Knights of the Blazing Sun just sounds better than the other orders.

Nah, Reiksguard sounds elite and I like the germanic name, it fits well with the Empire theme of Medieval germany. Knights of the Blazing sun is centered around Araby which doesn't have much to do with WAR most likely.

We haven't heard much from Mythic about the Kobts, but it's possible they are changing the Lore and might make Kotbs a Sigmar worshipping order.

[Devastation]

Hi, I've been following WARonline for quite awhile now - Honestly I don't know very much about the LORE. I know bits and pieces from reading the forums and reading the write up on the warhammeronline.com webpage.

However, as far as how lore plays out in game - I'm not too sure.

Granted, I haven't finished reading this thread yet but with the amount of lore talks happening here this may be the right place to ask.

Does the lore behind these Knights (not praising sigmar and all of that) really matter all that much in game? Like, does it have ANY effect what so ever to anything, aside from story purposes?

Now, I'm not saying that as a bad thing, I'm just asking in general, does the fact that these guys don't praise Sigmar have any actual effect on the gameplay?

[Krulltak]

Hi, I've been following WARonline for quite awhile now - Honestly I don't know very much about the LORE. I know bits and pieces from reading the forums and reading the write up on the warhammeronline.com webpage.

However, as far as how lore plays out in game - I'm not too sure.

Granted, I haven't finished reading this thread yet but with the amount of lore talks happening here this may be the right place to ask.

Does the lore behind these Knights (not praising sigmar and all of that) really matter all that much in game? Like, does it have ANY effect what so ever to anything, aside from story purposes?

Now, I'm not saying that as a bad thing, I'm just asking in general, does the fact that these guys don't praise Sigmar have any actual effect on the gameplay?


The different Knightly Orders operate in different ways as well as occupy different locations, so yes it would effect gameplay. Some knightly orders have specific tasks that would problably not work to well in WAR while others are more free.

The religion of the knights would not make that much of an impact in WAR though, except for maybe special god powers.

[Grimald]

I think those who are against Knights of the Blazing Sun fail to realise mythic has a story in mind for how things work exactly like Mark of Chaos you have to be that specific province.

Knights of the Blazing Sun are very neutral in what they are and how they act. They were once dedicated to Sigmar, it was only after the crusades in araby that they chose the godddess as their specific deity. Yet they still returned to the empire instead of heading to Tilea which is the largest area which worships her as the prime Deity.

Now adays they are the sworn defenders of the artillery train of nuln and the most ready to help out any elector counts that call for their aid.

Its not only empire that is stuck to a spercific god, look at Chaos they can only ever have Tzeetnch. I think mythic wanted to make a point that chaos is forced into the service of this god but the people of the empire are free to choose what ever god they wish.

[Amelung]

Im absolutely not against KotBS, but as i wrote in other threads i hope there will be for expansions more possibilities. Everyone who plays warhammer is knowing there are many different orders, factly in armybooks is written you can design your own. Thats not something i want to play!!!!!, really, beacuse there would be only curious 'guilds', (orders).

But so, if there is a discussion which 'single' knight is playable then please also discussions about organisations. Such knights never be in guilds with all sorts of 'friends'.
If warhammer is quoted for content, argumentation 'for' KotBS, then there must also be organisations like orders and not common playercommunities. If knights regiments, then knights regiments, or discussion about special orders are as sensefull as about 'guilds' for warhammer.
So if there will be a playerorganisation, not only 'not' called guild it should never be organised like such playercommunities, not fitting to warhammer. I read about Reiksguards not fitting to planned WAR, but i say also no playerguild fitting to any warhammer. So if there are folks who want consequences for warhammer, then not only in small details, then also in warhammer itself.

[Grandmaster]

This discussion is all nice and everything, but like most, pointless.;)
The decission is made by Mythic and it will be executed that way and we will probably (hopefully) get more info on the kotBs in this month`s newsletter.


If I had the chance to chose my order, it would have probably been the KotBs anyway ... only thing I don`t like, is seeing so many look-alikes of me on the battlefield, but that`s true for every class. ;)

[Grimald]

Im absolutely not against KotBS, but as i wrote in other threads i hope there will be for expansions more possibilities. Everyone who plays warhammer is knowing there are many different orders, factly in armybooks is written you can design your own. Thats not something i want to play!!!!!, really, beacuse there would be only curious 'guilds', (orders).

But so, if there is a discussion which 'single' knight is playable then please also discussions about organisations. Such knights never be in guilds with all sorts of 'friends'.
If warhammer is quoted for content, argumentation 'for' KotBS, then there must also be organisations like orders and not common playercommunities. If knights regiments, then knights regiments, or discussion about special orders are as sensefull as about 'guilds' for warhammer.
So if there will be a playerorganisation, not only 'not' called guild it should never be organised like such playercommunities, not fitting to warhammer. I read about Reiksguards not fitting to planned WAR, but i say also no playerguild fitting to any warhammer. So if there are folks who want consequences for warhammer, then not only in small details, then also in warhammer itself.

According to Mythic the word "guild" will not be included so they will have a different way of organising people.

[Seldaren]

This is never likely to happen. A new Empire Knight career would be barely distinguishable from the existing one, and there are far too many other options for interesting and diverse classes. It would take far less effort in the long run to deal with Imperial chivalry in a single, comprehensive career.

I'm not so sure about that.
The Knights of Morr and Knights of Ulric are quite a bit different from the Blazing Sun guys.

Especially if they added one of the Undead Races in an xpack, that would almost require the addition of the Knights of Morr to the Empire :) . Everything dealing with the dead is the domain of Morr, and bringing the dead back to life is one way to reallllly piss off his Knights.

And if they ever include the actual city of Middenheim, then adding the Knights of Ulric would be a logical sort of thing.

The current thinking is that xpacks will be new Racial Pairings. Well, I think if they add new Pairings, they'll have to add something new to the existing pairings. Whether it's in the form of new careers, new zones, new quest lines... just something new.
You are right though, many of the well known Orders are rather similar. But there are some that are quite a bit different.

[Amelung]

But one point is sure, at release we will have the KotBS :).
Another point is perhaps similar or more important for me than only playing one possibility of knights....i will be able to act like a warhammer knight, means mounted combat, not only as alibi-content, really with advantages and disadvantages. Especially for later expansions it would be fine, if also only 'one' first knight would be nearly perfectly warhammer-designed.

@But Seldaren you are right, also i dont need every possible order of knights realised in the game.
I think, Mark Jacobs (or another dev) will act as the emperor and he will ride beside us with his Reiksguard ;) (not seriously)
Then we will see those.

[Steel*Faith]

Its not only empire that is stuck to a spercific god, look at Chaos they can only ever have Tzeetnch. I think mythic wanted to make a point that chaos is forced into the service of this god but the people of the empire are free to choose what ever god they wish.

Good point. That does make it fit into perspective more for WAR. Although it makes me want to play destruction more than order for different reasons.

[Ashnari Doomsong]

But that doesn't make sense at all! Chaos does not equate to oppression unless someone got it wrong again...

[Ruinx]

But that doesn't make sense at all! Chaos does not equate to oppression unless someone got it wrong again...

Chaos does equate to killing people who don't worship the same Chaos god as you, though. Worshipping the wrong god won't get you killed in the Empire unless you go VERY wrong. Being a Chaos Warrior of Slaanesh and saying "Hellooooo boys!" to a bunch of Khornate Berserkers is only going to end one way in any situation other than the extremely rare "Chaos Undivided" armies.

[Ashnari Doomsong]

Yeah, well, true. But nobody's trying to convert you if you're another faith; they're just trying to kill you.
Hell, in-fighting among the god's own forces is common, too. In-fighting and Chaos go hand in hand - saying it's religious oppression rather than an unhealthy degree of competition is exaggarating, I think.

EDIT: Also, food for thought: D'you reckon an Arabyan's gods, for example, would be reckoned heretical in the Empire? I do...

[Vikingkingq]

Yeah, well, true. But nobody's trying to convert you if you're another faith; they're just trying to kill you.
Hell, in-fighting among the god's own forces is common, too. In-fighting and Chaos go hand in hand - saying it's religious oppression rather than an unhealthy degree of competition is exaggarating, I think.

EDIT: Also, food for thought: D'you reckon an Arabyan's gods, for example, would be reckoned heretical in the Empire? I do...

I disagree. Chaosites actively try to convert people - that's how Chaos cults form. Even more than killing people, what Chaos wants to do is corrupt people into serving them "willingly." When Chaosites sweep through a town who convert are given the blessings of Chaos, those who refuse are killed either as sacrifices to the Gods or as fodder for the Hellcannons - that's religious intolerance right there.

Arabyan gods would be considered heathen, foreign, etc. However, they're only considered heretical in Estalia, due to the efforts of the Inquisition there. In the Empire, they would most likely be denigrated as less powerful than the Gods of the Empire/Bretonnia/Estalia/Tilea/etc, because the invasion failed and the Crusaders pursued them into their own country to enact justice. However, they wouldn't be banned or subject to the Order of the Templars of Sigmar - only those who truck with Chaos are.

[Ruinx]

Arabyan gods would be considered heathen, foreign, etc. However, they're only considered heretical in Estalia, due to the efforts of the Inquisition there. In the Empire, they would most likely be denigrated as less powerful than the Gods of the Empire/Bretonnia/Estalia/Tilea/etc, because the invasion failed and the Crusaders pursued them into their own country to enact justice. However, they wouldn't be banned or subject to the Order of the Templars of Sigmar - only those who truck with Chaos are.

Precisely, and this is because the Empire is The Empire, and virtually without exception, all successful empires (from the Persian to the British) practice a strong degree of religious tolerance so long as the religions that aren't the main one remain small and non-threatening. It's when they get popular that the purges and inquisitions start. Given that Sigmar isn't as popular or dominant in the Empire, as say, Christ/Christianity was in the Holy Roman Empire, too, tolerance is likely to be even higher, especially as all non-Chaos religions are to a strong degree united in their opposition to Chaos religions. With a very real-seeming "external" threat, internal divisions tend to seem more petty and are generally disregarded until they become even larger threats.

[Bobble]

I think they ultimately made the choice because of the role they wanted knights to fill. Should they have chosen to leave your order choice open or chosen some of the othe rmore cool orders, the beginning balance would be off and the Empire would be more versatile as a realm than the others. The classes currently have their roles pretty obviously set. Theres a melee damager, a ranged dmger, a healer and a tank. It's clearly that way with all 4 realms that we know all the classes for atm. If the Empire's knight could choose an order that might allow him the option of diff. abilities, he may no longer classify as just a tank, but as more or maybe just something diff. and that would throw the balance slightly off. At least that's what I think the logic behidn their choice is. Cuold be just that they wanted to go for the iconic image of KoTBS with their bright glowy armor coupled with Warrior Priests giving the Empire some inspiration.

[Ashnari Doomsong]

When the Chaos Warriors sack a town, anyone who doesn't help them is killed. Yes.
So? The Dark Elves, for example, offer no such choice, and *they* are religiously intolerant. Do you think that, when the Empire enters a village of one of the Norse tribes, they try to convert them? No. They kill them all for belonging to the wrong faith - unless they turn and help the Imperial forces, in which case they will have some chance(IMO, I have no real evidence to support this - they might simply just kill them all, suspecting the enemy of decieving them). Basically, the Chaos procedure is, again IMO: Kill anyone that doesn't co-operate. If they want to co-operate, we must assume they are friendly to our faction. Other gods are not friendly to our faction. Ergo, they will worship the same god that our faction does. If they do not, they are not friendly to our faction, and will have to die.

To elaborate on my view of Arabyan gods, I would think that, in the Empire(where there is at least one concrete example of a banned cult which is not affiliated with Chaos, that of Ahalt the Drinker), open worship of them is punishable by death. However, I do not believe that the Witch Hunters are as ardent in their pursuit of them as they are in searching for necromancers or Chaos cultists; after all, the Arabyans have an entirely different pantheon than the Empire, and what is foreign is generally distrusted in the grim world of Warhammer; and let's face it, relations between Arabya and the Empire are not good. They have few cultural connections, and their greatest amount of interaction came through the Crusades - a religious war. This says to me that worshipping Arabyan gods is a no-no in the Empire. Once more, this is IMO.

So, basically, I think that while a Witch Hunter would be quite happy to light up a pyre with a passing Arabyan, said Witch Hunter will not go out of his way to root out Arabyan worship, simply because there are greater evils to take down.

EDIT: Add to that that the worship of Ulric has, on occasion, undoubtedly resulted in blood spilt between it and that of Sigmar(it has *almost* done so several times), and I'd say that no, religious tolerance is not high in the Empire beyond its known pantheon. The Lady of the Lake is probably seen as some lurid superstition on the part of Bretonnia.

[Ruinx]

Ashnari - "I would think", as in, everything you say is baseless and entirely made up? Not to mention not making sense.

The reason, as I explained, that Ulric's cult has had scuffles with Sigmars, is not "religious intolerance" of a generic kind, but rather Ulric's cult is large and popular enough to genuinely threaten Sigmar's, and thus Sigmar's primacy needs to be asserted or there's the potential of further religions in-fighting. However, the fact that Ulric's cult still exists above-ground indicates an extreme degree of "tolerance", even if it's only due to "greater threats". In RL history, any cult or sect or religion that significant tended to provoke either massive religious wars, or was wiped out entirely.

I'm not saying the Empire are some bunch of hippies, by the way, just that they're sensible, and even Witch-Hunters have to pick their fights and choose their ground. As you've got no evidence of the persecution of Arabyan gods, then you're just making it up to suggest that it happens.

I've looked up Ahalt's cult, and it's extremely bloodthirsty and violent, and downright physically dangerous! That's why it's banned. I'm sure any other cult of a similar nature would be equally frowned upon, but anything non-threatening? Unlikely. Ahalt may even be Khaine!

You're seriously crazy is you think Chaos is "tolerant" of other religions. It has a zero-tolerance policy of not worshipping Chaos, whereas the Empire has a zero-tolerance policy for worshipping Chaos, but a fair degree of tolerance for other religions (as clearly illustrated by the hundreds of faiths practiced in the Empire).

Chaos is not just "the wrong religion", either, it's an incredibly powerful world-rending force that exists directly in opposition to the majority of mankind. You either kneel before it, or fight it, those are the only choices. It's not "omg the Empire r like the Nazis and Chaos r like the jewz!" or some nonsense. The followers of Chaos are not "innocently practicing a religion that hurts no-one" like most persecuted religions in RL history. They're worshipping bloody, demonic gods who support the violent and destructive overthrow of human society! Get your facts straight! As for sword-point conversion - That's not "niceness" as you try to make out, that's practicality. Chaos wants more power, which means more worshippers, willing or not! Hell, they'll be willing soon enough, what with Chaos' warping effects.

[Ashnari Doomsong]

RuinX. Quit the petty insults and word-twisting. It was bad enough with Abraiel or whatever he was called. I will not tolerate it further in discussions in these boards. I raise a point, I say why I think my point is valid, you raise yours, but we do it in a civilized manner from now on, yes? Thank you.

Now, for your first point:
Yes, the Cult of Ulric still exists, and yet it can be portrayed as barbaric and savage, just like Ahalt's worship(if less extreme). It was, after all, Sigmar's own religion, and, as you say, there are other, greater threats in the world than the Cult of Ulric. However, lo and behold! For the Cult of Ulric *is* bitter and a bit jealous of other gods(primarily Sigmar, but also Myrmidia recently). Extremists within the Cult even deny Sigmar's divinity.
As stated, Ulric was Sigmar's religion, so wiping it out would be difficult - not to mention completely alienate one of the most powerful provinces in the Empire as well as several less powerful ones.

My "evidence", or should I say rationale, for claiming that Arabyan gods are persecuted in the Empire is this:
The Crusades, an at least semi- religious war(or series thereof), was launched against that country, meaning that it attained some qualities of Faith vs. Faith, meaning again that in a superstitious nation such as the Empire, the Arabyan faith will have been I HATE YOU!-ified. Also, there is clear evidence that non-chaotic cults are banned. Thus leading me to the conclusion: Arabyan gods are illegal in the Empire.

As for your suggestion that Ahalt might be Khaine, I find it ulikely given the nature of the gods. For one, Ahalt's background quite clearly states that he was a God of the Harvest who was persecuted by Taal's followers(at which point, it should be made clear, Ahalt was apparently far more benign than he is now), and who went underground to brood.

And no. I do not believe that Chaos is tolerant of non-Chaos religions. I believe that their intolerance is not out of any desire to force people towards the same faith that they practice, but rather from a paranoia that everyone not practicing their faith is out to get them. It amounts to the same thing, eventually(that is killing everyone involved), but its underlying motivations are different. That's my point. Get it?

As for Chaos, it's not entirely black, as you seem to make out, just as the Empire is not entirely white. Sigmar's Heirs even mentions this: A mother may call upon Nurgle to spare her pox-infested child when Shallya has given up. A soldier exhausted beyond all reason may invoke the name of Khorne when he desperately needs an extra boost to come back to his family. A sorcerer might, in a moment of utter desperation, turn to Tzeentch to ward off the effects of the latter's curse. Would you claim that these are guilty of some great sin and deserving of burning at the stake? And if so, why?
Of course Chaos is darker than the Empire and Ulthuan. Of course Chaos on a whole is not a nice thing. However, it is not mono-coloured EVIL EVIL EVIL.

However, you do admit that Chaos does allow sword-point conversion whereas the Old World dieties do not? Ergo, Chaos is, in this respect, actually nicer than the Old World dieties.

Nothing's black and white. That's real life, and that's Warhammer.

[Tauren]

Just curious, is the reason said chaos groups go against each other because each chaos god or "entity" if you will is out for their own, they are all warp creatures in the end and their followers bring them life force... so basically...

*throws a chunk of meat out into the dog pen*

"Have fun guys, thats all you are getting for today" type deal?

As an addition I always personally believed that in extreme purity you find impurity, thusly those who seek to become completely law and order oriented tend to reach their own level of corruption in a sense, same goes for chaos, while those who fall into a middle group well they are more "normal" in a sense.

I kinda see it as this, any "god" or "outside force", be it demonic or other wise tends to have a purpose, bring followers to its cause is just a means to having its power exist in a world where it does not. Same goes for an avatar of a god, its a sign of power. Just some more broad thoughts.

[Flegler]

The Crusades, an at least semi- religious war(or series thereof), was launched against that country, meaning that it attained some qualities of Faith vs. Faith, meaning again that in a superstitious nation such as the Empire, the Arabyan faith will have been I HATE YOU!-ified. Also, there is clear evidence that non-chaotic cults are banned. Thus leading me to the conclusion: Arabyan gods are illegal in the Empire.
I doubt Arabyan cults have enough of a presence in the Empire for anyone to consider banning them. In any case, you're speculating quite wildly when you say that Arabyan and Old Worlder faiths were at odds. There's no indication that the Crusade in Warhammer was a religious conflict: its whole intention was to depose an Arabyan dictator who'd invaded Estalia. We know nothing about Araby, its gods or its relations with the Empire in the 'modern day' of Warhammer.

As for Chaos, it's not entirely black, as you seem to make out, just as the Empire is not entirely white. Sigmar's Heirs even mentions this: A mother may call upon Nurgle to spare her pox-infested child when Shallya has given up. A soldier exhausted beyond all reason may invoke the name of Khorne when he desperately needs an extra boost to come back to his family.
This is only proof of the insidious nature of Chaos: just so are the first steps taken to damnation.

However, you do admit that Chaos does allow sword-point conversion whereas the Old World dieties do not? Ergo, Chaos is, in this respect, actually nicer than the Old World dieties.
Both sides act from necessity. Chaos needs worshippers, of course, and non-Chaos worshippers cannot allow the taint of Chaos to survive. Aenarion 'rescued' a maiden from a Chaos warband and she went on to bring the worship of Slaanesh to Ulthuan, and through her son incite a bloody, millennia-long war.

[Ashnari Doomsong]

Flegler: Actually, we do - somewhat. Warseer's made up a list of Arabyan dieties, and they are different to the Imperial ones. Also, crusade implies holy war - at least to me. Of course, you're free to think otherwise, given that my evidence is sketchy at best. I find religious persecution of Arabyans in keeping with my vision of the Empire. Others will not. It's not been stated conclusively either way, but I prefer to interpret the hints that way. Hence "I'd say that..."

On another point, the Chaos gods don't need worshippers more than, say, Sigmar - they've got plenty in the Wastes, after all, and pretty much anything anyone does or feels fuels one of them. In fact, their need for worship is less than that of Sigmar, since they have so much already. But they still give people a choice: Convert("redeem yourself") or die. Sigmar's people give no such choice. Is this not a kindness on the part of the Chaos worshippers?

[Vikingkingq]

Ashnari - "I would think", as in, everything you say is baseless and entirely made up? Not to mention not making sense.

The reason, as I explained, that Ulric's cult has had scuffles with Sigmars, is not "religious intolerance" of a generic kind, but rather Ulric's cult is large and popular enough to genuinely threaten Sigmar's, and thus Sigmar's primacy needs to be asserted or there's the potential of further religions in-fighting. However, the fact that Ulric's cult still exists above-ground indicates an extreme degree of "tolerance", even if it's only due to "greater threats". In RL history, any cult or sect or religion that significant tended to provoke either massive religious wars, or was wiped out entirely.

I'm not saying the Empire are some bunch of hippies, by the way, just that they're sensible, and even Witch-Hunters have to pick their fights and choose their ground. As you've got no evidence of the persecution of Arabyan gods, then you're just making it up to suggest that it happens.

I've looked up Ahalt's cult, and it's extremely bloodthirsty and violent, and downright physically dangerous! That's why it's banned. I'm sure any other cult of a similar nature would be equally frowned upon, but anything non-threatening? Unlikely. Ahalt may even be Khaine!

You're seriously crazy is you think Chaos is "tolerant" of other religions. It has a zero-tolerance policy of not worshipping Chaos, whereas the Empire has a zero-tolerance policy for worshipping Chaos, but a fair degree of tolerance for other religions (as clearly illustrated by the hundreds of faiths practiced in the Empire).

Chaos is not just "the wrong religion", either, it's an incredibly powerful world-rending force that exists directly in opposition to the majority of mankind. You either kneel before it, or fight it, those are the only choices. It's not "omg the Empire r like the Nazis and Chaos r like the jewz!" or some nonsense. The followers of Chaos are not "innocently practicing a religion that hurts no-one" like most persecuted religions in RL history. They're worshipping bloody, demonic gods who support the violent and destructive overthrow of human society! Get your facts straight! As for sword-point conversion - That's not "niceness" as you try to make out, that's practicality. Chaos wants more power, which means more worshippers, willing or not! Hell, they'll be willing soon enough, what with Chaos' warping effects.

Here, here.

I would just add that the Crusades in Warhammer were NOT based on religion. The sultan of Araby was bribed by Skaven into attacking Estalia, and the nations of Bretonnia and the Empire responded to the geostrategic threat by counter-attacking, driving the Arabyeans out of Estalia, and then pursuing them into Araby to defeat the Sultan himself. Notably, they did not conquer Araby or try to convert the Arabyeans.

It is true that there is anti-Arab prejudice IN ESTALIA, with their Inquisition and laws against Arabyean religions. These laws are thoroughly scorned by the peoples of other nations, who are shown to not follow the same pattern.

As for the Ulricite faith, they dominate an entire province of the Empire, and their Head Priest is an Elector. There is no more visible sign of its secure position in the Empire than that. Do the two cults get along? No. But they tolerate each other, accepting the principle that the other's right to exist is legitimate.

[Ashnari Doomsong]

...did I ever state anything contrary to what you just said?
I said: The word "Crusade" bears some religious implications, otherwise it might as well just have been called the Arabyan Wars or something like that. At any rate, the Arabyans have a completely different pantheon than the Empire, and since we do not know much about Arabyan relations with the Empire other than that they fought against each other in the Empire's crusades, I must assume that at least on some level, Imperials don't like Arabyans, culture an'all - since it's so different, and since it is not necessary for them to remain on decent terms with them(like is with the Bretonnians, who additionally share most of their pantheon with the Empire). In fact, because we know so little other than the Crusades despite their relative proximity, I'd say that relations are very, very bad. Follow my reasoning? Now, as stated before, I am speculating here with very weak evidence. That, however, does not mean that I am a complete idiot. But given what we do know(Witch Hunters seek out and relentlessly pursue Chaos in its many guises and aren't too remorseful when they wack an innocent, Empire/Araby relations aren't the best, Araby has a different pantheon than the Empire), I could easily see any Arabyans practicing their faith being persecuted by said Witch Hunters. The common folk would definately throw a couple of stones; they do on Elves, with whom the Empire is on relatively good terms.

See my basis for argument now? Witch Hunters are out to get Chaos. They're often paranoid. Arabyan religion is very strange. It might very concievably be Chaos worship in disguise! Arabyan religion is wrong!
See what I mean?

[Vikingkingq]

...did I ever state anything contrary to what you just said?
I said: The word "Crusade" bears some religious implications, otherwise it might as well just have been called the Arabyan Wars or something like that. At any rate, the Arabyans have a completely different pantheon than the Empire, and since we do not know much about Arabyan relations with the Empire other than that they fought against each other in the Empire's crusades, I must assume that at least on some level, Imperials don't like Arabyans, culture an'all - since it's so different, and since it is not necessary for them to remain on decent terms with them(like is with the Bretonnians, who additionally share most of their pantheon with the Empire). In fact, because we know so little other than the Crusades despite their relative proximity, I'd say that relations are very, very bad. Follow my reasoning? Now, as stated before, I am speculating here with very weak evidence. That, however, does not mean that I am a complete idiot. But given what we do know(Witch Hunters seek out and relentlessly pursue Chaos in its many guises and aren't too remorseful when they wack an innocent, Empire/Araby relations aren't the best, Araby has a different pantheon than the Empire), I could easily see any Arabyans practicing their faith being persecuted by said Witch Hunters. The common folk would definately throw a couple of stones; they do on Elves, with whom the Empire is on relatively good terms.

See my basis for argument now? Witch Hunters are out to get Chaos. They're often paranoid. Arabyan religion is very strange. It might very concievably be Chaos worship in disguise! Arabyan religion is wrong!
See what I mean?

Holy crow, man. In our world, the word has that connotation. In the world of Warhammer, it didn't, and the Arabyean religion was not the issue of the Crusades, control of Estalia was. The Empire came, it fought, it left. It doesn't have strong connections with the country because they don't share a border - Tilea and the Border Princes are in the way; it's doubtful that anything more than a handful of Arabyeans even make it to the Empire, so there isn't much in the way of relations at all, good or bad. Moreover, it's clear from the lore that persecution of Arabyean religion is restricted to the Estalian Inquisition and that other countries don't agree with Estalian policy on the issue. Witch Hunters are experienced enough to know the difference between different religions and Chaos worship, and they can get along with other faiths - the Order is known for its close ties to the Church of Morr, for example.

[Ashnari Doomsong]

Again, the *word* philologically has religious connotations. Also, I am well aware of the reason for the Crusades - however, I believe that the war had a religious aspect as well, due to the word employed.

The Church of Morr is one of the Old World cults. The Arabyans don't worship any of the Old World gods - they worship different ones. So the understanding of different religions part only(in my mind) applies to sanctioned cults - by default, if a religion is not legal, it is illegal. Of course, this is all my vision of the Empire, and if you disagree with it, we'll have to agree to differ.

Your point about relations is well made, but again - with the relatively short distance from the Empire to Araby, you'd think they had more in the way of contact. They don't, so I assume that they're not friendly.

Of course, if you're of another conviction, we'll again have to agree to differ.

[heavyhebrew]

*puts on flame retardant nuclear power pants*

From a lore perspective, the religion of Araby is the only monotheistic one in the Warhammer setting. There are various tribes which might practice 'cult' worship but according to the accounts in several novels, Realms of Sorcery and other various bits and pieces they worship 'the God'. It allows them to seal 'Djinns' (demons) into bottles and bury them in the desert. The way I read it it seemed as if their god was more aligned with Law than with Good.
There was also a nice bit about the gods of the Old World that listed them as the 'city' gods and 'rural' gods.
As an old WHFRP player, I loved Myrmidia, my Duellist was devoted to her worship.

Chaos always seemed to be different in the many iterations of it from GW. Sometimes it was made to seem as a world spanning intelligence bent on cosmic destruction, then as a reflection of the weakness in spirit of Man, then sometimes to seem as an almost viral force i.e foot soldier gets hit with a piece of shrapnel from the destruction of a chaos shrine then becomes chaos spawn.
Either way, it isn't what I would call a religion but more a way of life. Either you serve chaos or you die.
Personally, I would have gone with Chaos Undivided but that always seemed more a WH40K thing.

I did like Krulltak's idea of someday having the Templars of Morr brought out, as part of an expansion involving the Undead. The annual convocation of the Raven Knights would be fun to play.

Oh and I take everything Ruinx says as pure gospel;)

[Ruinx]

As for Chaos, it's not entirely black, as you seem to make out, just as the Empire is not entirely white. Sigmar's Heirs even mentions this: A mother may call upon Nurgle to spare her pox-infested child when Shallya has given up. A soldier exhausted beyond all reason may invoke the name of Khorne when he desperately needs an extra boost to come back to his family. A sorcerer might, in a moment of utter desperation, turn to Tzeentch to ward off the effects of the latter's curse. Would you claim that these are guilty of some great sin and deserving of burning at the stake? And if so, why?

I don't buy this at all. I've never heard of Nurgle sparing anyone because they prayed to him, except so that they could further spread disease and decay. Similarly, Khrone doesn't give two shakes of a lamb's tail about your family - if that warrior does get his boon, he'll probably get some kind of tainted battle-madness with it, and likely end up slaughtering that family. The sorcerer will not be granted his boon unless it furthers the inscrutable will of Tzeentch, either.

Why are they guilty of a great sin? Because they're storing up trouble. Chaos gives NOTHING without the promise of future servitude - There are what, a tiny handful of individuals in the whole of Warhammer history who have used Chaos magic or been granted boons by Chaos yet not been twisted by it? If that.

These people are only human, and weak, and that's not a reason to burn them or otherwise kill them - That they are tainted and will spread the taint further is.

Of course, I don't see Chaos as a "pure religion". I've read Warhammer stuff for decades now, and Chaos has never been a matter of "belief". Others have described it as a "viral force" and a "way of life", and that seems much more accurate - Once you let Chaos in, you cannot, unless possessed of superhuman attributes, get it out again, and all evidence suggests that, unless you accept Chaos and live with it, in it's constant shadow, you'll be crushed by it.

The Empire may not offer sword-point conversions to Chaos-worshippers, but that is not because they are "evil" or "mean" but because they know the fact that in virtually all cases, the Chaos taint is irreversible. I mean, you can't be physically tainted by Sigmar, can you? Yet Chaos CAN physically taint you, warp you, change even the violently unwilling into it's slaves. It's more than "a religion", it's an amazingly powerful magical force.

I do agree that Chaos can embody positive aspects - Change can be good, and Tzeentch also embodies optimism, for example. However, the Chaos gods themselves are utterly selfish and demand utter servitude in a way even Sigmar does not.

The idea that Chaos worshippers kill out of "fear" is a hilarious and bizarre rationalisation. You think people fight against Khorne-worship because they're mean-spirited or something? That they destroy Temples of Nurgle because they're religiously intolerant? That's nuts. Nurgle's very presence and being is antithetical to continued human life, similarly Khorne. Slaaneesh and Tzeentch a bit different, which is precisely why their cults have been so successful in penetrating society, but ultimately, they want to rip open the warp-gate and fill the world with change-magic, which is unlikely to be good for humanity.

The other problem with Chaos, which really undermines any "good", is it's Daemons, most of whom seem to exist SOLELY to kill, maim and torment living creatures. If the Warp-Gates were opened, humanity would be rapidly swamped by these creatures - any promise of a "better world" offered by Chaos is thus rendered false.

[Ashnari Doomsong]

Then that is your view, and you subscribe to that. I maintain that Chaos is not subject to any constants, even the concepts of good or evil, and I still do this despite your arguments to the contrary, just as you will stick to your view pretty much no matter what I say for mine. I realize that I may not be correct, but I still maintain my view. However, we have dragged this topic rather off course, I believe.

Knights of the Blazing Sun! I, personally, think they're a pretty good choice for a knightly order, given their proven pragmatism in battle.

[Ruinx]

:P

I'd still like to hear about Nurgle kindly straight-up curing a disease with the person he cured it on in no way going on to either:

A) Spread the disease (or another disease to others).

B) Become a servant of Nurgle.

or

C) Act as an important part of some unusually complex Nurgulian plot.

I don't think it's just "my opinion" in this specific case, I think it's how GW protrays Chaos. To claim otherwise seems to run against that portrayal.

You can start a thread about it in the Chaos section if you like.

[Ashnari Doomsong]

Well, people wouldn't be mentioned specifically doing it unless it worked, right? So Nurgle spares the wee kiddo from disease, and in return the Grandfather gets a little more worship. And so the plague of belief spreads slooooowly, but surely across the lands, one worried mother and her child at a time.

Plus, he also takes away some of Shallya's power base, which is always a good thing, I suspect. Essentially, he can convert people by being the good grandfather as well as by being an advocate of horrible death for the populace.

Now, I'm not going to go further in trying to consider the motivations a divine being, a manifestation of Chaos no less, might be - but I am reasonably sure that it won't be exactly rational.

[Vikingkingq]

Again, the *word* philologically has religious connotations. Also, I am well aware of the reason for the Crusades - however, I believe that the war had a religious aspect as well, due to the word employed.

The Church of Morr is one of the Old World cults. The Arabyans don't worship any of the Old World gods - they worship different ones. So the understanding of different religions part only(in my mind) applies to sanctioned cults - by default, if a religion is not legal, it is illegal. Of course, this is all my vision of the Empire, and if you disagree with it, we'll have to agree to differ.

Your point about relations is well made, but again - with the relatively short distance from the Empire to Araby, you'd think they had more in the way of contact. They don't, so I assume that they're not friendly.

Of course, if you're of another conviction, we'll again have to agree to differ.

Philology be damned, that's not what happened. You can't believe that it happened a certain way when GW's own materials say it happened a different way. They're the authors, they set canon.

Once again, the only illegal religions are the worship of the Ruinous Powers.

And it's not a short distance, it's hundreds of miles across several countries where the only direct access is through Black Fire Pass, which is infested with Greenskins.

[AlienOverlord]

The philosophical differences of the Warhammer orders are interesting but I think it came down to something basic like what Dustandpolos pointed out:

They add some variety from Sigmarites while still fitting in the the general Empire fire theme (Bright Wizards, burny-burny confession-extorting Witch Hunters, I'd imagine holy fire of Sigmar's vengeance for Warrior Priests).

There will be many people coming into WAR who will not be as familiar with the lore. Mythic might have wanted to pick a class that fit with this identifying theme of the Empire = Fire - which you could argue is also the fundamental basis of civilization, which is what the Empire is fighting to preserve. It reminds us that they are in an epic struggle to defend not just the Empire but civilization itself.

Or they might have picked the order that they felt was the most visually striking or interesting. That would have been a judgement call on the designer's part, all Warhammer characters are cool in their own way.

All of the orders are part of the lore afterall, they were all open as choices and I personally think Mythic's decision was probably based more on game design aspects for what would make the best, most approachable game as opposed to regard for which knightly order was most philosophically typical for the Empire.

[Ashnari Doomsong]

This is the last reply I will offer on the issue in this thread. Anything further comments, I feel, should be resolved on PM.

Philology be damned, that's not what happened. You can't believe that it happened a certain way when GW's own materials say it happened a different way. They're the authors, they set canon.
So they do. I merely build on that canon. We know that "crusades" were sprung, we know that a large amount of Templar orders were involved, and we know that more Templar orders sprung up due to apparent divine intervention.
All this hints "Smite the Heathens" to me, but I can understand if it doesn't to you. However, the people at GW have not directly contradicted, nor even hinted against (to my knowledge), that there was a "Deus Vult" aspect to the Crusades.

Once again, the only illegal religions are the worship of the Ruinous Powers. Sorry, this is simply not true. Ahalt the Drinker, a specifically mentioned God in Sigmar's Heirs, is mentioned as banned. He is not a Chaos God. Ergo, there are other banned religions in the Empire than the Chaos Gods.

And it's not a short distance, it's hundreds of miles across several countries where the only direct access is through Black Fire Pass, which is infested with Greenskins.Note the "relatively". We know almost as much about Cathay as we know of Araby, and Cathay is far more removed. It stands to reason that some contact, at least, would crop up.

EDIT:
Aye, but the Blazing Sun have got precious little to do with fire. If they'd wanted a non-Sigmarite fire order, they'd have gone with the Knights of the White Wolf and their connection with the great fire in Middenheim, methinks.

[Vikingkingq]

This is the last reply I will offer on the issue in this thread. Anything further comments, I feel, should be resolved on PM.

So they do. I merely build on that canon. We know that "crusades" were sprung, we know that a large amount of Templar orders were involved, and we know that more Templar orders sprung up due to apparent divine intervention.
All this hints "Smite the Heathens" to me, but I can understand if it doesn't to you. However, the people at GW have not directly contradicted, nor even hinted against (to my knowledge), that there was a "Deus Vult" aspect to the Crusades.

I get that you're adding on here, but I'm saying that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - just cause they didn't say it didn't happen doesn't mean it did. The Crusades were called to "free Estalia from the evil Sultan Jaffar", they pursued the Arabyeans back to "[make] sure he never troubled the Old World again,", and then stopped. Crucially, they weren't called for religious purposes (since Bretonnia and the Empire have different religious systems), they didn't try to conquer Araby, like the real-world Crusaders did, and they didn't try to establish their faiths in Araby, which the Crusaders did. It's a different phenomenon altogether.


Sorry, this is simply not true. Ahalt the Drinker, a specifically mentioned God in Sigmar's Heirs, is mentioned as banned. He is not a Chaos God. Ergo, there are other banned religions in the Empire than the Chaos Gods.

Note the "relatively". We know almost as much about Cathay as we know of Araby, and Cathay is far more removed. It stands to reason that some contact, at least, would crop up.
.

First, Ahalt's the exception that proves the rule. He was banned because his religion demanded blood sacrifice from human victims. Barring that, the Empire does not ban other religions than the Chaos Gods.

Second, we know much more about Araby. It's mentioned in several army books, we have very detailed maps (both from the Crusades supplement and in the Tomb Kings book I believe), it has its own army list for Warmaster, etc.

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~dpken/warhammer/WH_Araby.pdf - Araby Army Book
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=301059&orignav=300815&GameNav=
- Araby store

The only contact I could find between the people of Araby and the Empire besides the crusades are some trading vessels in Marienberg, a now-destroyed Imperial outpost in Araby, etc. Whatever contact happens is rather fleeting - travel is much more expensive and rare in Warhammer than it is today, and people don't immigrate very often if at all.

[Tea TIme With Death]

Love the helmet. wtf are people thinking?

[ScottyM]

My "evidence", or should I say rationale, for claiming that Arabyan gods are persecuted in the Empire is this:
The Crusades, an at least semi- religious war(or series thereof), was launched against that country, meaning that it attained some qualities of Faith vs. Faith, meaning again that in a superstitious nation such as the Empire, the Arabyan faith will have been I HATE YOU!-ified. Also, there is clear evidence that non-chaotic cults are banned. Thus leading me to the conclusion: Arabyan gods are illegal in the Empire.

Now, I don't know if it's just me... but IF Arabyan gods were in fact illegal, wouldn't it be safe to assume that the Knights of the Blazing Sun would simply not exist in the Empire? And since they do, and openly, doesn't that refute this entire claim?

[Axxar]

Maybe they got a note from their mom?

[Dudds]

IMO

The Knights of the Blazing Sun is an obvious choice over all of the others, it's pure cosmetics. All the classes need to have their own individual look and at the same time give a true reflection of the . On one side you have these hulking Chosen in massive plate, heavily decorated with the symbols of Tzeentch, the natural comparison to this is the Blazing Sun with their Exotically decorated indistinguishable unique armour patterns adorned with symbols and colours, the brightness and colour they wear is a complete contrast to the dark twisted nature of chaos. The armour of the other orders imo is too similar to other classes or just too basic they don't stand out, other orders like Morr are too dark sided for a war agaisnt chaos and for gamers who's only real experience of the Warhammer world is Mark of Chaos they're a recognisable feature within the Empire.

As for the "first mounted class in MMO history" i think they'll employ some artistic licensing for that, the Reiksguard field both dismounted and mounted knights so i think we'll see that here. Also cavalry is only useful in formation don't expect to be running around on a horse with a lance, if anything expect to see something similar to what they're trying to implement in Age of Conan.

Lastly the Lore with Myrmidia. Myrmidia is vital to be shown in the game within the Empire. Throughout the Empire not just the Blazing Suns, professional soldiers especially gunners consider Myrmidia the patron of modern warfare, if you're going to have witch hunters with hand guns she needs to be represented to show all sides of the empire. Also Myrmidia has never been a threat to Sigmar so it's not viewed as a seperatist cult or something to undermine Sigmar, the only resistance to myrmidia is from followers of Ulric because of their opposing view on how to conduct war.

It seems that the storyline will be central to WAR and hopefully the story will justify their choice more but i honestly think that they've made a good choice. All these views are my opinion and i understand that not everyone will agree and my understanding of the lore is not amazing so feel free to set me right on anything you see as inacurate.

[Barundin162]

I think KotBS was done to appeal to Bretonnian fans also since they are not playble. It may not be THE lady but hey its A lady. Buts thats my 2 copper coins

[Jonas]

I forget where, but it has been said that KotBS were chosen because:

1) They favour tactical smarts over honour and glory. Ergo, players can act 'smart' by running away from fights or ambushing opponents and hitting them from behind. Other knightly orders are too classically front and centre, do or die.

2) They're known for operating alone, away from large regiments of their Order, unlike most other Knightly Orders.

That being said, the crusades discussion in this thread is interesting reading :)

[Eltair Shadowblade]

That being said, the crusades discussion in this thread is interesting reading :)
+1, hope they carry on, as i like reading it:p

[Estalian KOBS]

2) They're known for operating alone, away from large regiments of their Order, unlike most other Knightly Orders.

:)

Took the words right out of my mouth! I think that is it more than anything.

While naturally a generic "Empire Knight" class with customizable Knightly Order skin would have been the best, the KOBS is a fine, fine choice. As a veteran WHFB player I originally thought the KOBS were boring, but I decided to look into them a bit deeper once they were chosen as a class for this game out of sheer curiosity. Turns out I love them so much now, and their fluff suits right to the end! Who would have known? Thanks Mythic for opeing my eyes to Myrmidia! I just sold my Dwarf army on Ebay and am now in the process of builing an Empire army with a Grand Master of the Knights of thw Blazing Sun as my general. So, in effect I will be a KOBS in the "real" version of Warhammer as well! Few W.A.R KOBS players will be able to boast that I think! (Many won't care or think that's lame, but I think it's neat :p)

[BallsOfSteel]

I still think it's outright stupid to have a Knight class dedicated to a single Order though.
Hey, us Chaos are being restricted to Tzeentch. Having a cool Order is nothing to be angry about, lol. The Blazing Sun sounds tight as crap. From Warhammer's TT official site: "A relatively small order, the Knights of the Blazing Sun are also known as the Templars of Myrmidia because of their devotion to the Estalian warrior deity Myrmidia. Largely unknown in the lands of the Empire, it was only through the strangest of chances that the Order’s worship of her began at all.

During the wars against Araby, threescore Knights from the Empire lent their aid toward the recapturing of the temple of Myrmidia in Margritta, the southern seaport of Estalia. During the fierce fighting around the temple, a violent earth tremor shook the building and dislodged the vast bronze statue of Myrmidia that was fixed on its topmost steeple. The statue fell to the ground, smashed into a thousand fragments, and flattened Emir Wazir the Cruel and his Black Scimitar Guard. With their leader slain, the Arabian hordes abandoned the temple and left it in the hands of the Knights. Whether this incident was actually divine intervention has been widely disputed, but to those Knights who fought in the temple, it was unquestionably Myrmidia herself who intervened. Upon returning to the Empire, the veterans of that battle founded the Order of the Blazing Sun and built a shrine to Myrmidia in the heart of Talabheim. Though many folk mistrust them for courting strange foreign deities, the Knights of the Blazing Sun have unceasingly fought with distinction against the enemies of the Empire and are held as a prized ally by many Elector Counts."
Nothing wrong with that!

[Teljor]

as long as i can still chose what ever dye i want, its cool with me. i like the idea of a knight who fights smart, instead of with stupid devotion to a code of conduct no one else follows. why face the meanest chaos warrior ever one on one when you can strike him down while hes tided up with a few of your meat sheilds, and get the same result saving tons of lives and yours, because god knows if you faced him one on one and died as you most likely would your army woudl break and be cut down.


and to the discusion of the tolerance of non sigmarite religions and the basis of the arabian wars, it really didnt look like the crusades were religious. crusades can really mean any long journy battle or quest (though most woudl think holy war, actuly the closest to holy war is a jihad, since the romans and nazis often refered to there conquest as a crusade, be it the romans crusades to rid the world of the uncivilized nation, or the nazis on a crusade to rid the world of there non northern europeans perticuarly jews) they moved in kicked out the oppresors and chased them back to there lands to make sure they didnt come back. it was never mentioned they once tryed to force the religion or convert at sword point. the basicly did what america did in WW2, they moved in free europe and defeated the sorce at its home, was there anythign religious about that?

on another note the comment about chaos not being evil, it being gray. thats a bit ridiculous. chaos never dose anything good without having an equaly and mostly more insideous plan behind it. sure you helped the old woman carry the bags of food to her car, but in the procese you stole a credit card form her and racked up 1000s of dollars of indentity theft money. now on the outside it looked like a good deed but deep down it was something worse, this is the nature of chaos as described by warhammer books everywhere. its like hard drugs, sure the crack distracts you from the pain your feelin makes you happy but you slowly get addicted more and more where you take more and buy more, and eventualy start to act eractic and there is a good chance something really bad will happen.

[GreyWarlord]

Heh. Yeah, that Chaos Crack. It's called powdered warpstone.

[Salekith]

actually im happy they picked KoTBS they are really unique compared to other orders and they dont run away from fighting dirty

[Kaiser]

...

...Also, the other Knightly Orders are perfect for expansion Careers later down the road. Knights of the White Wolf and the Knights of Morr being some of the more obvious choices IMO, as they are different enough.

My "problem" is that I dont want to play KotBS just to have the Expantion to include the White Wolves or Moor. I would love to follow Ulric, but seeing as thats not posible, im stuck between KotBS and Chosen. Whats going to "make or break" this is how the knights shouts work. If its simmilar to WoWs paladin auras, thats great, but if its more like the warriors shouts...not so much. I would hate to refresh shouts every 30 seconds...but thats neither here nor there, this is about Blazing Suns.
As the empire is based on Germany, I dont see why I should follow some Araby Goddess. I know i wont get to play under Ulric (I LOVE wolves and the cold, perfect combo for me) but why include them later? It would be nice to have them, unless I started out as a tank and then the class i want to play happens to be the same... not much fun.

[Konrad Siegesruf]

Myrmidia is not an Araby goddess, but a Tilean and Estalian goddess.

[Kaiser]

Myrmidia is not an Araby goddess, but a Tilean and Estalian goddess.

What nations do they represent?

[Okri]

What nations do they represent?

Italy and Spain, respectively. I believe that Myrmydia is primarily worshipped in Estalia though.

[GreyWarlord]

Both countries worship her. The question of whether she was born in Tilea or Estalia is just one more thing for the two countries to fight over.