There NOT Paladins!

[Captain Amerika]

I know there are many people who havent done such but here it is. Stop comparing warriorpriests to paldains in warcraft, infact please stop comparing WAR to WoW. I've seen many complaints that people say that they hope the warriorpriest does not end up like the paladins in WoW and I can guarantee that the chance of that happening will decrease if you stop comparing the warriorpriests to paladins or that horrible game that spawned them.

PS: I know this seems like a rant but I just wanted to let it out.

[Duty]

Many other games have had paladins, the paladin archetype has been around a lot longer then WoW. WPs do fit a paladin archetype: melee guy that casts holy magic and buffs his allies, and most likely wears heavier armor.

[Bobble]

This is true, both valid points. People need to stop judging MMOs by WoW. WoW had its run but it was always a shallow and easy fanboy MMO. WoW's PVP blows and thus PVEing has no real point other than to own easily at that crappy PVP just by having better gear than the next guy, that or to PVE more effectively as you run your pve ratrace.

But at the same time, Warrior-priest falls into the paladin archetype and thus can easily be compared to paladins in WoW aside from the fact that in WoW they wear heaviest armor and use mana. Fundamentally WP is similar to any class that could heal itself and melee efficiently, like wardens or valks in DAoC or Paladins in WoW and/or most other hybrid healer classes from an rpg/mmo. The basic similarities are there, but what makes WP cool is that they're almost a mix of 2 archetypes. The paladin and the berserker/warrior kinda archetype. In lots of RPGs and MMOs warriors have had to land hits or be hit to be able to dish out damage in the form of strikes or use other abilities. Paladins usually used magic power of smoe sort to heal themselves and others or buff themselves and others. Put them together and you kinda have a WP. Dealing moderate damage, main healing and buffing, endless supply of power so long as you're alive and able to swing your hammer. I think it's a nice take on them.

[Captain Amerika]

Many other games have had paladins, the paladin archetype has been around a lot longer then WoW. WPs do fit a paladin archetype: melee guy that casts holy magic and buffs his allies, and most likely wears heavier armor.

Yeah I know, when I hear paladin I think of the knight-like class in D&D though I think many people are reffering to those wretched things in WoW.

Plus I think the WP seems more like a cleric in D&D then anything else.

[Kruez]

Plus I think the WP seems more like a cleric in D&D then anything else.

Exactly. If one is going to compare the Warrior-Priest to a fantasy archetype, it's much more similar to the cleric. Restricted to blunt weapons and an ordained member of the clergy make it much more similar to a cleric than a paladin, who is usually a crusader or holy warrior, but not an ordained member of the church, and the longsword is the archetypical paladin weapon, not a hammer or mace.

Their are similarties, sure, but, like you, I wish the comparisons would stop.

[inquisitor Roo]

Yeah I know, when I hear paladin I think of the knight-like class in D&D though I think many people are reffering to those wretched things in WoW.

Plus I think the WP seems more like a cleric in D&D then anything else.

In EQ2, the archetype is also a paladin. one who fights, leads a group into battle, and is able to heal and maintain their group's ability to be inspried and continue the figtht. it is a tough role to play, if done well. I cannot say in WoW how efficiently they made this role, but the EQ2 role by the same name is fairly well respected, if not their counterparts, the shadowknight.

Now, I'm not one to compare them to a Warrior priest. A warrior priest is one who first inspires their followers, convicts their enemies, and unleashes the rage of their faith on the battlefield. By all accounts, it seems too early to tell that there is a relationship there: if anything, a paladin archetype would align more with the knights of the Sun, in terms of chivarly, honour, and faithfulness to their calling.

[sonofsigmar]

i think its a very sad thing what world of warcraft has done to the image of paladins as historical figures and to the meaning of "paladin" as a word.
from wikipedia, dictionary.com or any other source of European history, paladins were the twelve "peers" or equals of Charlemagne's court, callled so because well, go find out. but back then upto when wow was released, paladin was a really special and worthy designation to a person.
in modern english, paladin we know means anything from crusader, holy warrior, defender, champion, hero etc. its even more tragic to find people comparing wow's paladins to WAR's WP's and saying "dont make them like paladins, paladins suck."

what i can say is take a warrior priest in the literal sense, somebody who fights courageously for the sake of the church, this is in the simplest terms of course. also, take the paladin in the historical sense, just like you would take the words warrior, sorcerer or mage, even from other MMO's, but simply forget the paladin of wow, who is the most bastardized, fake and contorted disfigurement of any historical career in todays games..

we cant be angry at blizzard for doing this, because paladins are in EQ and so on, but blizzard are just stupid, and we cant include Mythic in the same bracket by bringing into WAR a definition that doesnt belong here.

[heavyhebrew]

The Game That Shall Not Be Named kind of ruined the image of the 'paladin' in the minds of a lot of MMO players. The devs for TGTSNBN really screwed the pooch on an otherwise popular class archetype.

I have faith that Mythic will finally put the holy warrior class where it belongs. In the front, smashing the life from heretics with the Hammer of Righteousness.

[sonofsigmar]

TGTSNBN, sweet im gonna be using this from now on, thanks alot heavyhebrew!!!! becasue we all know TGTSNBN is the greatest MMO to date and whichever comparisons we want to make or areas we want to improve on, we cannot avoid it, it stalks us every day, everywhere we turn, every class we see, every bug we despise, simply because TGTSNBN has virtually no contender for MMO king. i hope that changes with AoC, WAR and maybe a retake on Vanguard, anything to see that something challenges the status quo.

that said, yes the holy warrior is an archetype that must exist in any MMO, it simply must, too bad TGTSNBN took the name "paladin", the best and greatest name to bestow upon any holy/divine/knightly champion class and took a crap on it, just sad.

[Dustandpolos]

I have no great love for WoW, but it did nothing that hadn't been done before. A paladin has been a fighter class with less straight forward physical combat strength but divine powers since at least D&D - which was the single most generic thing ever to be invented, deliberately so people could make their own stories from it.

You may not like the WoW paladin, but it did not destroy the archetype. Before WoW D&D had a character identicle in image, except trimmings such as prefered weapon and deity. Before that there were King Arthur's Knights and St. George, who all fight and are granted victory in God's name, and for whom piety was fundamental to their strength. In 10 years WoW will be relegated to the history books and people who never played it will be looking at a different paladin in a different game.

A warrior-priest is a paladin. Ok, the focus is slightly more on the divine than the fighter, but in TT as in all the lore a Warrior Priest is a front line fighter with worse stats than a comparable pure melee class but divine magic to make up the difference. I very much doubt a WAR warrior-priest will play in the same way as a WoW paladin, but the comparison is absolutely justified and I'm not surprised people ask the question if WoW paladin is what they know and can relate to.

[Vaelin]

In the eyes of many, TGTSNBN ultimately failed because its "paladin" - a class which leveled up entirely as a melee fighter with divine trimmings - ended up being a caster that did very little meleeing at all (if you wanted to be at all supportive up to your full potential). TGTSNBN's "paladin" ultimately becomes a caster class with a limited toolbox and heavy armor.

Whatever else the Warrior Priest will end up doing, at every point along the way and in the end it will bash things. The bashing of things will continue well into and through endgame. In endgame, the Warrior Priest will still be bashing things. However many ways you want to put it, the Warrior Priest will - with regard to consistent playstyle - be much more in tune with the divinely augmented melee fighter archetype than TGTSNBN's "paladin" will ever be.

Remember, the Empire as a whole is being designed to operate at full potential in a group, offensively. The Dwarves, by contrast, are being designed to best function in a group and defensively. This is why the Warrior Priest will be up front bashing things, while the Rune Priest will be engaging the fight in less direct ways.

[heavyhebrew]

Good point Dustandpolos. I never played the Fantasy Battle so I am not familiar with the Warrior Priest stats on the Army list. I am a 40k player, go figure. The closest I have to an idea for the warrior priest would be from Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay.

I think Mythic would probably go with what is on the Army List as that would make more sense from a development point of view.

Now I am going to have to go buy that damn Empire Army book....

[sonofsigmar]

In the eyes of many, TGTSNBN ultimately failed because its "paladin" - a class which leveled up entirely as a melee fighter with divine trimmings - ended up being a caster that did very little meleeing at all (if you wanted to be at all supportive up to your full potential). TGTSNBN's "paladin" ultimately becomes a caster class with a limited toolbox and heavy armor.

Whatever else the Warrior Priest will end up doing, at every point along the way and in the end it will bash things. The bashing of things will continue well into and through endgame. In endgame, the Warrior Priest will still be bashing things. However many ways you want to put it, the Warrior Priest will - with regard to consistent playstyle - be much more in tune with the divinely augmented melee fighter archetype than TGTSNBN's "paladin" will ever be.



what vaelin said

in addition, it is practical to compare both the paladin archetype and the WP, because of TGTSNBN's success, period not for any other reason. if you are still playing that MMO like I am, you cannot claim that it is a functional class, and since im an avid poster in both forums, i usually dont like or support such claims. why is this?

it is a general consensus that majority of paladins over there are dissatisfied and will eagerly jump onto this game like i am, for reasons purely relating lore and general understanding with actual gameplay. now i wont go into how that other game has flouted all these in regards to the holy warrior archetype, i wont even belabour the fact that 75% of its current paladin base dont like it, what i will say however is that Mythic has the right idea, and its commendable.

this being a general truth, it is my further intention to say that comparing both classes battle-field significance is as incongrous as comparing stupidity and genius, obsoletion and functionality. this understood, i would favor that the WP have actually none of the combat and functional associations that the TGTSNBN's has. from what we know, the WP is a deadly melee fighter, a tactical master of battle, radiates heals, and has mechanisms in place to synergize face-smashing glee with group-encouraging buffs and life-giving restoration, seamlessly and in a non-disruptive way. those of us who know the latest paladin archetype know that a paladin cant do this, thats why i say when it comes to purpose on the battlefield, the paladin and the WP are as alike as an orc and an elf, and i want it to stay that way.

[Bobble]

LoL This should really not even be on this forum, but Paladins in WoW are a functioning class...lol, fact of the matter is there's an incoming heal nerf because they're as viable as healers (esp. endurance fights) as priests. Ret is still a decent PVP build and Prot is a viable tanking build even if it's not as good as warrior yet. Anyways, whether or not it fails wouldn't matter either way. Paladin was around before WoW. People need to stop acting like WoW created the genre. DAoC has wardens and valks and paladins and it's way older than WoW. Sure it's the most popular MMO now but that is by no means a reason to pretend it innovated/created/founded the genre or the archetypes in it. It's been done a billion times, each time they're diff. but been done. Whether it's tnak type paladins, damage type paladins, doesn't matter. It's all the traditional paladin archetype with the creators' spin on it.

I've also not seen a WP radiate heals, from the vids I've seen of it in action, the heals are casted. And you're being extreme. Are wardens in DAoC not like WP because they cast their heals? The paladin archetype is simply this: A capable (not necessarily focused on this aspect) melee fighter with moderate to heavy armor and the ability to cast support abilities/heals. Opposed by the typical dark knight archetype which is an accomplished melee fighter that can cast debuffs and/or nukes. Doesn't matter if they're named differently or they work differently or one can life tap and the other can't. They're built around the same role, melee dmg with some casting functionality.

[sonofsigmar]

LoL This should really not even be on this forum, but Paladins in WoW are a functioning class...lol, fact of the matter is there's an incoming heal nerf because they're as viable as healers (esp. endurance fights) as priests. Ret is still a decent PVP build and Prot is a viable tanking build even if it's not as good as warrior yet. Anyways, whether or not it fails wouldn't matter either way. Paladin was around before WoW. People need to stop acting like WoW created the genre. DAoC has wardens and valks and paladins and it's way older than WoW. Sure it's the most popular MMO now but that is by no means a reason to pretend it innovated/created/founded the genre or the archetypes in it. It's been done a billion times, each time they're diff. but been done. Whether it's tnak type paladins, damage type paladins, doesn't matter. It's all the traditional paladin archetype with the creators' spin on it.

I've also not seen a WP radiate heals, from the vids I've seen of it in action, the heals are casted. And you're being extreme. Are wardens in DAoC not like WP because they cast their heals? The paladin archetype is simply this: A capable (not necessarily focused on this aspect) melee fighter with moderate to heavy armor and the ability to cast support abilities/heals. Opposed by the typical dark knight archetype which is an accomplished melee fighter that can cast debuffs and/or nukes. Doesn't matter if they're named differently or they work differently or one can life tap and the other can't. They're built around the same role, melee dmg with some casting functionality.

i agree, but if you have a paladin, the point is in that particular game's case, the lore and class description does not fit with actual gameplay. the character does not play as was first advertized, and the longer you have played it, the more you will know, no one said WoW invented the paladin, the consensus is they bastardized it. if in doubt i suggest you walk over to their forums and see it for yourself; as i said, i still play it.

this being the major source conflict, i'll be damned if i pick a WP only to have him play differently even a million patches later. this is why people, a good number of them paladins, are leaving WoW. because including all its other issues, they dont recognize the paladins they rolled. if you think im making this up, i suggest you stop thinking that from now on, as a casual visit to the paladin forums will reveal to you, this is exactly what is going on there, and you wont be surprised to find Warhammer is cited among paladins more than any other class in that game.

that is fact my friend.

[Bobble]

i agree, but if you have a paladin, the point is in that particular game's case, the lore and class description does not fit with actual gameplay. the character does not play as was first advertized, and the longer you have played it, the more you will know, no one said WoW invented the paladin, the consensus is they bastardized it. if in doubt i suggest you walk over to their forums and see it for yourself; as i said, i still play it.

this being the major source conflict, i'll be damned if i pick a WP only to have him play differently even a million patches later. this is why people, a good number of them paladins, are leaving WoW. because including all its other issues, they dont recognize the paladins they rolled. if you think im making this up, i suggest you stop thinking that from now on, as a casual visit to the paladin forums will reveal to you, this is exactly what is going on there, and you wont be surprised to find Warhammer is cited among paladins more than any other class in that game.

that is fact my friend.

You assume I don't play WoW and assume that I don't have a 70 pally. Both are false assumptions. It's true that they bastardized the pally, changed their core multiple times...that's cause Blizz just fails at balancing classes intelligently for pvp. My point was not to knock those who were aroudn to see how paladin got fuxxored time and time again in WoW, but to the people who talk about WoW paladins like they were a new class type. I honestly don't care if the WP doesn't play the same patches later, so long as it's enjoyable. Lets break it down to the simplest fact, we play for fun. So long as it's fun (and useful to an extent), that's all that should matter. Play the class till you don't enjoy playing it anymore.

[Harken]

that's cause Blizz just fails at balancing classes intelligently for pvp.

You honestly think that Kalgan cares about balancing the classes?

[nWe]

I'm preaty sure they will be like paladins but with more dps and less healing.

Btw: They're Not There

[sonofsigmar]

Lets break it down to the simplest fact, we play for fun. So long as it's fun (and useful to an extent), that's all that should matter. Play the class till you don't enjoy playing it anymore.

you are right i guess, but all the same......

There are different definitions of fun, and we cannot assume that all players play to "enjoy" their classes to that extent. some choose classes that just seem to have the best edge at beating everyone else. some like me, take classes based on lore and set archetypes, such that no matter which game im playing, im either the good guy, the holy warrior, or the defender of the weak thing we're all familiar with.
Yes Blizzard may have failed about balancing classes, but they may not give a damn as long as their subscriber base keeps growing. In this light, I wanted to point out that we all play for our different reasons, and it doesnt matter that we dont enjoy it, because for some (pointing at some hardcores) these games have less to do with fun and more with facing challenge and defeating all set goals to get a sense of achievement (which to me is admrable) other gamers dont care about.

So basically, I dont think the paladin as an archetype has been well done in that game because to many it doesnt fit what a holy warrior actually is, or even was presented when they first played. bear in mind that to blizzard, whatever they do to affect game play is not subject to question by the majority of players, simply put, they dont care.

this is what im trying to say in this thread, that mythic should not in any way even attempt to mimic blizzard design or attitude, and so far as we can see, they havent. if te WP does this in patch A, by patch Z he should be doing the same thing, and if this changes not only should we know about it, but we should have time to say exactly why we do or do not like it. thats why so many other threads say in bold :

1. This is not WoW
2. Witch-hunters are not rogues, and most likely do not play like them (No stealth)
3. Dont bring anything from WoW into WAR.
4. squig hunters are not shorter hunters from WoW, and like the OP said
5. They're not paladins

these all entertain us, but i think the message is serious. nobody wants the foolishness and dysfunctionality of wow in here, especially that of the unfortunate wow paladins.

[Captain Amerika]

Btw: They're Not There

Wow, I did spell that wrong. I don think I can change it now though...

Anyways, I know that the WP is very similar to the actualy defination of a paladin. But my original post is focus on how many people have taken stuff from TGTSNBN and apply it to other games and other things in the world. For example: someone I know who plays TGTSNBN at my school over heard me talk to a friend about WAR. He asked me what will the max level be in the game. I said "I don't know, why should it matter? What if I said it was 10?". He then replied with somthing like "That's lame and a waste of time" obviously comparing it to TGTSNBN since level 10 in that game is not much of anything. But what if level 10 takes a year to accomplish? What if it's realy, realy, realy hard to just gain a single level? That's basicaly what I'm trying to say here, but mainly focused more on WPs then levels and other generic stuff that people compare WAR and TGTSNBN with.

[King Luke]

I'm sure that Mythic are doing everything they can to make Warhammer Online as different as they can to World of Warcraft.

Saying that, the generalised descriptions of a paladin-archetype can put both WoW's paladin and WAR's Warrior Priest into the same box.

Personally, I believe (and hope to god) that they will play completly differently. In WoW, to kill a Paladin it takes a lot of firepower, but then it takes a million Paladins to kill anything.
I'd like to think that in WAR, the Warrior Priest is going to kick absolute butt! As far as I see it, Big Hammers + Big Buffs = Big, Big Damage and someone to Fear. Not someone to just run past and ignore.

Either way, I have confidence that Mythic will pull this off, and make all classes brilliant to play.

[heavyhebrew]

From a Lore POV; sitting back and casting heals is NOT what a Warrior Priest of Sigmar would do. It would be equivalent of a Knight of the White Wolf hosting a tea party. For those not familiar with the lore, Sigmar and Ulric (White Wolves) are WARRIOR gods. They delight in their followers going right up to their enemy and smacking them in the face with a Hammer. Not standing in the background in support.

From a Dev POV; Paul Barnett and others have done everything up to but not including hitting us all up side the head with a steel bat on the issue of buffbots and healbots. It just will not happen in this game. I have seen other classes have their own heals under Morale and Tactical abilities. That sort of 'spreading the heal love' will go a long ways to killing the calls "Heal me, ^&%$#(!".
Go look on the Dwarf and Orc forums for the ability lists, very interesting reads and VERY instructional as to how they are designing the classes. A lot can be inferred from just these tidbit morsels of yum-yum WAR goodness. Class design will be interesting and complex if not down right unique.

Now if you will excuse me, I have a heretic scourging at 4.

[luy22]

Many other games have had paladins, the paladin archetype has been around a lot longer then WoW. WPs do fit a paladin archetype: melee guy that casts holy magic and buffs his allies, and most likely wears heavier armor.

But Warrior Priests are NOT paladins! Paladins are Bretonnian, NOT Empire...

[OOmachinaOO]

I have faith that Mythic will finally put the holy warrior class where it belongs. In the front, smashing the life from heretics with the Hammer of Righteousness.

Hairs on my neck stood up when I read that. I have a lvl 70 Paladin in WoW and it's nothing compared to the concept of the Warrior Priest to be honest. The design seems more intelligent and fun to play.

I'll be up the front with you dude lol.

[Dustandpolos]

@ luy22

Brettonia may have a class called the Paladin, but that doesn't mean Warrior-Priests aren't paladins as well - its a wide catagory for any holy/divinely strengthened warrior class. It's like saying High Elf Shadow Warriors aren't Scouts, just because there is an Empire unit of that name.

Warrior-Priests are paladins.
What they are not is WoW paladins - as far as we can tell at this stage.

[sonofsigmar]

Warrior-Priests are paladins.


lol, what if i say wow paladins are disenfranchised Warrior Priests?

[Kruez]

Warrior-Priests are paladins.


No, they aren't. They are Warrior-Priests and that's all they are. Never once have they ever been called paladins by GW or any official source. So clearly, they are not paladins.
You can say they're SIMILAR to paladins, but that's as far as you can go.

Being a holy warrior alone does not make one a paladin. In fact, paladins, a fantasy archetype that originates in D&D, are NOT priests and are more akin to holy knights in most games. Warrior-priests, however, are ordained clergy of the church.

So if you really want to match up warrior-priests to fantasy archetypes for some reason, the warrior-priest is much closer to a cleric than to a paladin.

But I don't know why we can't just call them Warrior-Priests and be done with it.

[Captain Amerika]

No, they aren't. They are Warrior-Priests and that's all they are.

He's got a point, paladins are mostly described as a noble knight or commander of an army of some sort which is why the Bretonnians have them. But it is TGTSNBN that tried to attach a poorly crafted cleric-like class with that name. Now many people think that any holy warrior is a paladin which usualy only applies to TGTSNBN.

[SwaY]

WoW is always involved because most people know it and it set the bar for MMO, BUT that does not mean people should throw things about like "Warrior Priest = Paladin" because it's not, as most have already stated Paladin means Holy warrior or champion, the third crusade one of the higher officers was a Paladin, not because he ran around the battlefront with his bubble on screaming "wtf lal pwnz0r owns joo" but simply to the fact he was a man of religeon. Now people really should stop comparing the two games WAR isn't WoW and WoW isn't WAR. WAR came first it's like the chicken and the egg, similar theme v diff background. Paladin was a heavily clad healer with little DPS. WP is a DPS tank with some heals.

[Rofllove]

People like paladins and since there are not any they will roll warrior priests and pretend to be. In many ways they are paladins by gaming standards.

Plate armor- check
healing- check
melee- check
buffs- check

Close enough for me, and with the popularity of paladins people will roll priest warriors and pretend to be paladins. Get used to it.

[OOmachinaOO]

People like paladins and since there are not any they will roll warrior priests and pretend to be. In many ways they are paladins by gaming standards.

Plate armor- check
healing- check
melee- check
buffs- check

Close enough for me, and with the popularity of paladins people will roll priest warriors and pretend to be paladins. Get used to it.

Paladins off WoW:

Ability to melee effectively - uncheck
Ability to role as a pvp class - uncheck
Do we get to smash the life from things? - uncheck

I made this statement because so many Paladin references will come from WoW.

All you have to do is look at the name 'Warrior Priest' to realise the immediate difference between the two. 'Warrior'. Any element of 'Warrior' was stripped from Blizzards representation of the Paladin.

I'm rolling a Warrior Priest because I can use my faith as a means to support my mates, but to also destroy that in front of me. Something I simply cannot do with my Paladin.

[Vaelin]

If WoW has set the standard for "Paladin" for future RPG's, then I hope to God the Warrior Priest is NOT a Paladin.

[Brtoher Alexius]

Hey all ,it's very simple - when making Warcraft, Blizzard stole the idea for the Paladin from the Sigmarite Warrior Priest. In fact, I've seen many things in Warcraft and other Blizzard creations that look stolen from Warhammer - anyways, it's older than Blizzard's work. Like the Zerg - they're almost identical to 40k Tyranids, but Tyranids are older as a concept, thus - Zerg are stolen. Same's with the Warrior Priest and the Paladin - just Blizzard released WoW earlier.

[RangerSix]

Al right, I've played with paladins in games ever since I played Hexen II and I have to say no, WP's are not paladins.
Don't get me wrong, even though there are alot of similarities the warrior priest lacks abit too much "warrior" to be a paladin. A paladin is a warrior with priestlike influences while the WP is walking a line right in between them, making the WP a cleric.

*BUT!* this does not change that the WP is more of a Paladin than the Paladin of WoW is at the current moment.

[Firann]

The true thread name should not be They are not paladins but rather:

WoW PALADINS ARE CLERICS NOT PALADINS.

Warrior priests play as a paladin, even their description implies a paladin. A warrior devoted to his god, that stands in the front lines leading his army, fighting and buffing them along the way.

HOWEVER they have one fundamental difference than a TRUE paladin. A paladin is a KNIGHT first and foremost. He is the protector of the kings palace (hence the name paladin) He is a tank first and foremost (in terms of game mechanics). Paladins have altered from initial descritption to what is now known as the core paladin class. A knight blessed by his god with divine magic that can help buff his allies and provide some heals.

Taking the original concept of a paladin he should have no heals. He should just be a leader, commander. Should be in the front of the fight doing dmg, fighting along his comrades and provide buffs to his group through great leadership. THAT IS A PALADIN and at that is why Brittonians have the TRUE PALADINS.

Warrior priests are the NEW game developed paladins. Warriors that can heal and buff their allies while provideing dmg in the front ends.

End conclusion: There are two types of paladins. The original concept of the Leader role model and the game made paladin which is a warrior/priest hybrid.

[Rofllove]

Paladins off WoW:

Ability to melee effectively - uncheck
Ability to role as a pvp class - uncheck
Do we get to smash the life from things? - uncheck

I made this statement because so many Paladin references will come from WoW.

All you have to do is look at the name 'Warrior Priest' to realise the immediate difference between the two. 'Warrior'. Any element of 'Warrior' was stripped from Blizzards representation of the Paladin.

I'm rolling a Warrior Priest because I can use my faith as a means to support my mates, but to also destroy that in front of me. Something I simply cannot do with my Paladin.

Because WoW invented paladins and it is the only thing I could be referring to? Leave your hate for that game out of this.

[sonofsigmar]

The true thread name should not be They are not paladins but rather:

WoW PALADINS ARE CLERICS NOT PALADINS.

Warrior priests play as a paladin, even their description implies a paladin. A warrior devoted to his god, that stands in the front lines leading his army, fighting and buffing them along the way.

HOWEVER they have one fundamental difference than a TRUE paladin. A paladin is a KNIGHT first and foremost. He is the protector of the kings palace (hence the name paladin) He is a tank first and foremost (in terms of game mechanics). Paladins have altered from initial descritption to what is now known as the core paladin class. A knight blessed by his god with divine magic that can help buff his allies and provide some heals.

Taking the original concept of a paladin he should have no heals. He should just be a leader, commander. Should be in the front of the fight doing dmg, fighting along his comrades and provide buffs to his group through great leadership. THAT IS A PALADIN and at that is why Brittonians have the TRUE PALADINS.

Warrior priests are the NEW game developed paladins. Warriors that can heal and buff their allies while provideing dmg in the front ends.

End conclusion: There are two types of paladins. The original concept of the Leader role model and the game made paladin which is a warrior/priest hybrid.

this is indeed very true, is there any link to the Brettonian Paladins? This would be so so so very much easier if everybody reversed their thinking about paladins being products of wow. the first paladins existed ages before and are precisely, accurately, and to the point what this guy says they are. one point of contention though, even if original paladins should be pure warriors, i think the heals came in due to the fact that a paladin cannot be separated from the divine, or religion as you may have it. and the logic is, if he can buff because he has powers from his deity, it follows naturally that this deity should give him healing powers. what kind of deity has no healing powers? thats what makes healing and buffing part of paladins.

this i think is where WAR can actually create a paladin later maybe and be realistic, but then again he would have the same function as a WP or KoTBS, thats why i think atm there are no paladins. Blizzards egregious error was allowing paladins to have priest like heals that can sustain a whole group when that is very anti-lore and stupid considering the IP belongs to Games Workshop and the like. IMHO, i think paladins should have been able to heal themselves only and have very good buffs, or have the heal on such a cooldown that it could not be relied on to heal 4 people, maybe just the paladin, and he could toss it to save one life, not one million. But still, im not making the games, i cant say what should or should not be, but it is still a ridiculous thing that such an outstanding unit in lore and other games is the equivalent of a ballerina in others, its wrong any way you look at it.

[Woehstan]

I think what people are trying to say is that the WP will play a lot like paladins. No, TGTSNBN completely butchered the design philosophy behind a pally. Being a DAoC vet who played his pally, Its my belief that mythic will model the class around that type of pally. Melee oriented class that provides support to his groupmates.

I have full confidence in mythics ability to provide a melee oriented hybrid, whether its called the WP or pally.

[Oasis]

Because WoW invented paladins and it is the only thing I could be referring to? Leave your hate for that game out of this.
actually...a lot more games and mmo's have made paladins before WoW ever did

warriorpriests>paladins, paladins=priests(well in WoW)

[Rofllove]

actually...a lot more games and mmo's have made paladins before WoW ever did

warriorpriests>paladins, paladins=priests(well in WoW)

:rolleyes: Your sarcasm detector needs fresh batteries.

[Steel*Faith]

Paladins off WoW:

Ability to melee effectively - uncheck
Ability to role as a pvp class - uncheck
Do we get to smash the life from things? - uncheck

Except Warrior Priests will be more effective in melee obviously, but paladins in WoW can too, but in WoW you have to have really good gear to do it, and use the right seals/judgments at the right times.

[Engel]

Well, to the above comment. Clerics in Warcraft were later rallied after being wiped out in the first war as Paladins or Battle-Clerics. My concept of a Paladin is a 'holy' warrior, nothing to do with World of Warcraft. People need to stop making posts about how they dread that WAR will be like World of Warcraft, post something more interesting. It gets repetitive to see this.

I had two level sixty Paladins in World of Warcraft, a majority of the people assume about the class and see it as clear facts that they suck or something.

(I think I saw my first versions of the Paladin in Ogre Battle 64 for the N64, such a fun game.)

[RangerSix]

Well, to the above comment. Clerics in Warcraft were later rallied after being wiped out in the first war as Paladins or Battle-Clerics.

Clerics and knights !

[SwaY]

Right for starters it's THEIR and Paladins are not a new concept, Blizz have just made a spun off, read up on the third crusade, a PALADIN was a knight or great warrior with holy or clerical beliefs, and the high commanders of armies were also known as PALADINS for their heroism and undieing passion for their holy lands.

[Kharnath]

SwaY's right but he also forgot that in times of peace the count palatines were also the tax collectors...now thats something I'd wanna see in a game...not WAR though..maybe blizz could make it to give me a good laugh...

[Draugh]

Diablo 2's Paladin was a real Paladin. A tough, heavily armored fighter with martial (Zeal) and divine (Fist of the Heavens) abilities and passive group enhancements for all situations, easily able to stand on the front lines, with a well rounded arsenal.

It's a riot that where Diablo 2 created basically the perfect Paladin, WoW failed at it. Any game that does a Paladin class should look at D2 for inspiration.

[Twip]

Acts like a paladin... looks like a paladin... smells like a paladin... so..

[heavyhebrew]

Acts like a paladin... looks like a paladin... smells like a paladin... so..

When you burn for your heresy, will you scream? :skull:

[Falkos]

honestly, people need to get over the whole paladin vs WP class

they "feel" the same way but the lore behind them is differant, the idea of them being similiar to paladins is here to stay do not get offended by comparisons

how you would RP a pally vs WP would be completely differant however, so save thsoe arguements for those situations.

[Rotgut_Eadsmasha]

All I gotta say is when someone one calls my Warrior Priest alt a "Pally" asking for healing is going to be very disappointed when I tell them good luck finding one.

The may act alike but in the Warhammer universe they're called Warrior Priests.

[Arijharn]

3. Dont bring anything from WoW into WAR.


I hope I'm not quoting you out of context, but if WoW had something that was useful, then why shouldn't Mythic implement it? Because Blizzard thought of it first?

I'm not saying bring things in from WoW 'just because', that's just plain silly, but otherwise it seems moronic to 'shoot yourself in the foot' by not bringing in things that are well... good.

For all of WoW's woes in regards to class balance, their core stuff is actually pretty good and well designed. Stuff like the quest system for example and how you can put it on your hud and be automatically updated. I'm sure there are others as well, but that's all I can think of at the moment.

To ignore good design principles just because it's the biggest, baddest mmo at market currently seems so backwards it has more to do with disparagers ego's than 'because it doesn't fit.'

[cmstophe]

Hey all ,it's very simple - when making Warcraft, Blizzard stole the idea for the Paladin from the Sigmarite Warrior Priest. In fact, I've seen many things in Warcraft and other Blizzard creations that look stolen from Warhammer - anyways, it's older than Blizzard's work. Like the Zerg - they're almost identical to 40k Tyranids, but Tyranids are older as a concept, thus - Zerg are stolen. Same's with the Warrior Priest and the Paladin - just Blizzard released WoW earlier.

Boy, is that some screwed up logic. Especially on the zerg being *identical* to tyranids. ROFL.

[Heresy]

The Warrior Priest is the Paladin of Warhammer, don't delude yourself.
That said, the holy warrior/paladin archetype is quite alot older than the Warcraft franchise ...

However, a comparison between the WP and the WoWadin isn't all that valid.
The Warcraft Paladin was boring in the franchise, WoW just made them worse.
Warrior Priests are nothing like them fluff-wise, and I pray to Sigmar their playstyle will be nothing like the Warcraft ones in either of the games.

They stem from the same archetype yes, but sit at opposite sides of the holy warrior spectrum.

A Warrior Priest is the incarnation of righteous fury, a Warcraft Paladin couldn't smite anything if his life depended on it.

[Sune]

My main in WoW is a Paladin. Just starting with that :D
But first of all, I wouldn't say that Wow's take on the Paladin was always totally different from what we understand the Warrior-Priest to be. Over time the Wowadin has evolved away from what in the understandable sense a Paladin should be. It really is indicative of one of the major flaws of WoW. The developers took the lazy option. Instead of taking the time and putting in the effort to get a workable mechanic for the wow Paladin, they took the easy option and let the class evolve into how the hard-core pve'rs had found the paladin to be effective in that context - flash heal spammers. So rather than standing by their fluff and actually putting thought into how they wanted the game to turn out, they took the easy option.
Put shortly(ish), in my opinion they took what worked in the game - the technical - and changed the concept of the Paladin to fit that, rather than starting off with a concept and designing the technical to realise that concept. It was supposed to be a role-playing game - i.e. the concept, story, flavour behind the classes being the foundation of the gameplay. Imo they took a completely wrong approach.
Also, a defensive class in a purely offensive game is rediculous. They can't compete meaningfully in pvp unless they look at a group-level competition and heal - and that is BORING.

So what I'm saying is, while you have every right to get annoyed about people comparing/discussing the Warrior-Priest with relation to the WoW Paladin, be slightly sympathetic. These players enjoy the concept of what a paladin should be, and they are pretty interested with how the Warhammer equivalent of a hammer-swinging holy warrior will turn out. Blizzard let them down with the Paladin class, and they're just hoping that EA-Mythic gets it right :D

And before the flames come that the Warrior-Priest is different from the wow Paladin, thats exactly my point - the fact is the way that the Warrior-Priest is being designed is how we would have liked the Paladin to be all along!

Sorry about the long post.

[sonofsigmar]

I hope I'm not quoting you out of context, but if WoW had something that was useful, then why shouldn't Mythic implement it? Because Blizzard thought of it first?

I'm not saying bring things in from WoW 'just because', that's just plain silly, but otherwise it seems moronic to 'shoot yourself in the foot' by not bringing in things that are well... good.

For all of WoW's woes in regards to class balance, their core stuff is actually pretty good and well designed. Stuff like the quest system for example and how you can put it on your hud and be automatically updated. I'm sure there are others as well, but that's all I can think of at the moment.

To ignore good design principles just because it's the biggest, baddest mmo at market currently seems so backwards it has more to do with disparagers ego's than 'because it doesn't fit.'

i think youre on point but veering slighly off. when i say dont bring anything from wow into war i mean none of the unique characteristics that make wow what it is, not what makes wow an mmo. i mean, intuitive HUD, streamlined quest system and all that are what any decent mmo should have.
my quarrel was with people who want to make a direct wowesque comparison, by saying since paladins in wow do this, the WPs should be the same or different. in trying to come up with ideas for the WP i wanted it to be forgotten that wow exists as a badass mmo and just any ordinary mmorpg. do you find anyone comparing WPs to a class in Lineage, Guild Wars or RFO? No, you dont or at least not very often, i want the same thing done in reference to wow.

so in conclusion lets look at warhammer for what its trying to do, which is revolutionalize the mmorpg, not perfect or throw out concepts from wow. i know for a fact the mythic devs and many other players dont like it being said "this could be the wow killer"
no one cares about wow, why should we?

[Crooked]

Diablo 2's Paladin was a real Paladin.

That is a pretty bold statement. Maybe D&D and other games have corrupted me over time, but I usually associate with healing, laying on hands, curing diseases and so on. As well as the might/magic combo that you mentioned. Diablo's paladin was great and all.. but saying it is perfect is a big step.

I've always seen paladins, in whatever setting as the ultimate beacons of 'good', as well as a vanguard against evil.

[Der_Eisenhans]

That is a pretty bold statement. Maybe D&D and other games have corrupted me over time, but I usually associate with healing, laying on hands, curing diseases and so on. As well as the might/magic combo that you mentioned. Diablo's paladin was great and all.. but saying it is perfect is a big step.

I've always seen paladins, in whatever setting as the ultimate beacons of 'good', as well as a vanguard against evil.

Well, actually, the D&D Paladin didn't have much healing at all. He had a very weak lay on hands (which was more like an emergency small heal) and couldn't cure diseases (but he was immune to them).
In later levels, he could learn priest spells, but it was up to you if you wanted to go the healing route or the buff/damage route.

And who says that the ultimate beacon of goodness and justice can't go around killing evil monsters? European folklore is ripe with "holy" knights and saints killing monsters, dragons and stuff.

Personally, I've never seen the paladin and similar classes as a tank, but as a - from a modern perspective- crazed zealot (ie, damage and very few heals/buff), only barely understood by the common folk and "earthly" society (since he seeks heavenly justice, not mundane justice, most people would think he's a dangerous murderer, because they "cannot hear the voice that he hears").
I understand that most people associate "good" with "tank" though, but for me, this doesn't make much sense. I think more of Christian crusaders, insane Hermits or Jewish Zealots, when I say "Paladin".

[Heresy]

Well, actually, the D&D Paladin didn't have much healing at all. He had a very weak lay on hands (which was more like an emergency small heal) and couldn't cure diseases (but he was immune to them).
In later levels, he could learn priest spells, but it was up to you if you wanted to go the healing route or the buff/damage route.

And who says that the ultimate beacon of goodness and justice can't go around killing evil monsters? European folklore is ripe with "holy" knights and saints killing monsters, dragons and stuff.

Personally, I've never seen the paladin and similar classes as a tank, but as a - from a modern perspective- crazed zealot (ie, damage and very few heals/buff), only barely understood by the common folk and "earthly" society (since he seeks heavenly justice, not mundane justice, most people would think he's a dangerous murderer, because they "cannot hear the voice that he hears").
I understand that most people associate "good" with "tank" though, but for me, this doesn't make much sense. I think more of Christian crusaders, insane Hermits or Jewish Zealots, when I say "Paladin".

Well put, my good man, and quoted for truth.

[Sangradedio]

You dont want for warrior priest class to do 50% in melee and 50% in healing... "hey look my attacks got the enemy down to 40% hp and when I try to heal a friend it wasnt efficient enough to keep him alive"

And then players will go wtf??? No matter what I do I cant dps on par with others and I cant heal on par with others even if I am wearing elite dps gear or elite healing gear.

Designer him self said: "When you see a player in combat you'll know exactly what they can do and its straight forward" Meh the promised looks faint already.

Why can the hybrids in leading mmorpg do any any of 3 things (healing/dps/tanking) if spec properly and geared properly? because thats what keeps people paying for their subscription. Hey if I want to sit back and chain heal black orcs and dwarf warrriors for next 15 hours I can do so, if I want to dps and I am sick of healing for next few weeks I can do that too.

If WAR will introduce shaman/warrior-priest/runepriest as a permanent 1 profession (developing your character only around healing or only around dps PERMANENTLY) then people will get sick of it and will simply go back to their old mmorpg.

[Duty]

Can't believe this thread is still going :p


Paladin conjures up the thought of a person who is of a knightly order ordained by a church. They usually combine the traits of a heavy tanker class and a heal/buffer class. Usually they lean more toward the buff side on the support issue. These things sound like a Warrior-Priest (crap, it's in the class title...Warrior + Priest).

Keep in mind that heavy tanks still can do respectable dps, so when I say they have the traits of a heavy tanker, it includes this. Those of you excepting to do Choppa-like dps will have to look somewhere else, however. Expect the WP to be tough as nails (tougher then a heavy tank in solo situations possibly), and able to put out some dps in melee. Don't expect an offensive juggernaut, as that's the job for your Witch Hunters. Mythic is saying this class will fulfill the support role for the Empire, but as with all support classes, you're going to have an offensive function as well.

I'm just saying this to be honest. It's big, and I repeat myself, that people go into this not expecting to be offensive juggernauts, that's not what a tank(even if light tank)/heal hybrid does best. You're going to last long enough to take all his offensive measures and survive, then finish him off with a glorious show of righteous fury!

[heavyhebrew]

Well, actually, the D&D Paladin didn't have much healing at all. He had a very weak lay on hands (which was more like an emergency small heal) and couldn't cure diseases (but he was immune to them).
In later levels, he could learn priest spells, but it was up to you if you wanted to go the healing route or the buff/damage route.

And who says that the ultimate beacon of goodness and justice can't go around killing evil monsters? European folklore is ripe with "holy" knights and saints killing monsters, dragons and stuff.

Personally, I've never seen the paladin and similar classes as a tank, but as a - from a modern perspective- crazed zealot (ie, damage and very few heals/buff), only barely understood by the common folk and "earthly" society (since he seeks heavenly justice, not mundane justice, most people would think he's a dangerous murderer, because they "cannot hear the voice that he hears").
I understand that most people associate "good" with "tank" though, but for me, this doesn't make much sense. I think more of Christian crusaders, insane Hermits or Jewish Zealots, when I say "Paladin".

That kind of honest and frank evaluations are refreshing! Thank You!

You dont want for warrior priest class to do 50% in melee and 50% in healing... "hey look my attacks got the enemy down to 40% hp and when I try to heal a friend it wasnt efficient enough to keep him alive"

And then players will go wtf??? No matter what I do I cant dps on par with others and I cant heal on par with others even if I am wearing elite dps gear or elite healing gear.

Designer him self said: "When you see a player in combat you'll know exactly what they can do and its straight forward" Meh the promised looks faint already.

Why can the hybrids in leading mmorpg do any any of 3 things (healing/dps/tanking) if spec properly and geared properly? because thats what keeps people paying for their subscription. Hey if I want to sit back and chain heal black orcs and dwarf warrriors for next 15 hours I can do so, if I want to dps and I am sick of healing for next few weeks I can do that too.

If WAR will introduce shaman/warrior-priest/runepriest as a permanent 1 profession (developing your character only around healing or only around dps PERMANENTLY) then people will get sick of it and will simply go back to their old mmorpg.

The faithful of Holy Sigmar shall have their cake AND eat it too. We get heals that happen as we attack, we get heals that get more effective with more Righteous Fury. We get attacks that slow, attacks that stun, we get to throw our frickin' hammer!
This ain't not jack of all trades, master of none class.
This is the kick your greenskin, dainty S&M elf fanboi, Chaos Iwannabeindethklok worshiping butt class. Oh, and we can heal pretty good too while we do it.
It is this way because Sigmar and his highest holy priests, the Dev team, will it so.:)

[Der_Eisenhans]

Can't believe this thread is still going :p
Paladin conjures up the thought of a person who is of a knightly order ordained by a church.

Nope. A paladin was and is a Holy Warrior. It doesn't even have to do anything with organized religion, churches, whatever (depends on the campaign setting, obviously). A Paladin is chosen by his God (ie. Paladins are born, not made).
This is the classical approach to it - to roughly paraphrase 2nd Edition D&D: "Even a farmer that takes up his scythe to fight the forces of darkness can be a Paladin, if his God so chooses."

They usually combine the traits of a heavy tanker class and a heal/buffer class. Usually they lean more toward the buff side on the support issue. These things sound like a Warrior-Priest (crap, it's in the class title...Warrior + Priest).

Nope. It's not even usual for paladins to combine healing/buffing and tanking - you're talking about clerics here.
The first game that went into that was TGTSNBN. In NO other game you have completely passive paladins (even in FF XI you could dual class them with a Ninja and become a damage dealer) - There's always a DD build for paladins, and the tank/buffer job normally goes to priests or clerics.

Keep in mind that heavy tanks still can do respectable dps, so when I say they have the traits of a heavy tanker, it includes this. Those of you excepting to do Choppa-like dps will have to look somewhere else, however. Expect the WP to be tough as nails (tougher then a heavy tank in solo situations possibly), and able to put out some dps in melee. Don't expect an offensive juggernaut, as that's the job for your Witch Hunters. Mythic is saying this class will fulfill the support role for the Empire, but as with all support classes, you're going to have an offensive function as well.

Of course, no one expects to do the most damage in all the Empire. What we want and hope for is to do respectable damage, while at the same time (literally) giving support to our comrades with heals and buffs - the more damage we do, the stronger we and our allies get. This would be invaluable on the battlefield, as long as we get enough protection from our party (which will be the case).
It'd be kind of a symbiosis - we keep them strong and alive, while they protect us, and we both do damage.

A pure cleric would be too easily killed, kited, CC'ed (see TGTSNBN) - it's unlucky design in TGTSNBN's case, though it works in others (Ragnarok Online's Priest is pretty formidable as a buffer/tanker, even in 1:1 PvP).

I'm just saying this to be honest. It's big, and I repeat myself, that people go into this not expecting to be offensive juggernauts, that's not what a tank(even if light tank)/heal hybrid does best. You're going to last long enough to take all his offensive measures and survive, then finish him off with a glorious show of righteous fury!

I always wonder why people say this. On the official TGTSNBN's forums, it's the same.
Understand: We don't want to be #1 DPS and #1 Healing and #1 Buffing and #1 Tanking.
We want to be viable enough to be in the thick of things, supporting the group. Not juggernauts. We want to be the glue that keeps the offense together, all while doing our own share in the first line.

For some, it's also a RP thing: If you are faithful to your god, would you keep back and heal? No, you would be in the first line fighting, because you trust in Sigmar to protect and strengthen you and your friends.
It's no coincidence that Paladins in that other game are ridiculed - it looks like their "Light" has almost completely forsaken them and they are weak.

[Duty]

Nope. A paladin was and is a Holy Warrior. It doesn't even have to do anything with organized religion, churches, whatever (depends on the campaign setting, obviously). A Paladin is chosen by his God (ie. Paladins are born, not made).
This is the classical approach to it - to roughly paraphrase 2nd Edition D&D: "Even a farmer that takes up his scythe to fight the forces of darkness can be a Paladin, if his God so chooses."

Then why do D&D paladins earn experience and better their abilities? You aren't just a super hero in D&D the moment your god deems it. You say they're a holy warrior, which isexactly what I'm saying, but you have to remember the holy part. Smiting enemies is part of it, but helping the injured and protecting the weaker faithful is just as part of a paladin's job...hmm, sounds awfully knightly to me ;)

Nope. It's not even usual for paladins to combine healing/buffing and tanking - you're talking about clerics here.
The first game that went into that was TGTSNBN. In NO other game you have completely passive paladins (even in FF XI you could dual class them with a Ninja and become a damage dealer) - There's always a DD build for paladins, and the tank/buffer job normally goes to priests or clerics.

First, I never said anything about passive paladins. Paladins are anything but passive, they should be the first to lead the charge, as their faith is that strong. You can't be on the front line without a hefty amount of defensive capability, or support. Since you ARE the support as a Warrior-Priest, you have to have that hefty amount of defensive capability. Auras have always been a big part of paladins, in D&D to DAoC to WoW to WAR. Auras are buffs. Paladins wear heavy, usually the heaviest, armor in the game, and have at least some healing capability. The tank/buffer job is a paladin's job, traditionally with more emphasis on the tank part. Clerics are not tanks. Tanks deal melee damage in respectable amounts, clerics do no such thing. Clerics usually are the heavily armored/protected pure defensive specialists, including healing, buffing and curing.

Of course, no one expects to do the most damage in all the Empire. What we want and hope for is to do respectable damage, while at the same time (literally) giving support to our comrades with heals and buffs - the more damage we do, the stronger we and our allies get. This would be invaluable on the battlefield, as long as we get enough protection from our party (which will be the case).
It'd be kind of a symbiosis - we keep them strong and alive, while they protect us, and we both do damage.

Of course, completely agreed, but there are always the noobs out there that think that because they can't do as much damage as a Witch Hunter, their class sucks. WPs are the Empire's support role, and I feel I may save someone months of work into a WP when they get frustrated being that support. I can see the same with Chosen, people will complain because Marauders do more damage, but OMG the CHOSEN is so much more L33T LOOKING and should do L33T MORE DAMAGE!

I always wonder why people say this. On the official TGTSNBN's forums, it's the same.
Understand: We don't want to be #1 DPS and #1 Healing and #1 Buffing and #1 Tanking.
We want to be viable enough to be in the thick of things, supporting the group. Not juggernauts. We want to be the glue that keeps the offense together, all while doing our own share in the first line.

See the paragraph above. WPs are closely related to their (properly done) paladin cousins from other games, maybe even having a little more of the clerical side in them from being the Emp's primary healer.

[Der_Eisenhans]

Then why do D&D paladins earn experience and better their abilities? You aren't just a super hero in D&D the moment your god deems it. You say they're a holy warrior, which isexactly what I'm saying, but you have to remember the holy part. Smiting enemies is part of it, but helping the injured and protecting the weaker faithful is just as part of a paladin's job...hmm, sounds awfully knightly to me ;)

The "chosen" part is taken care of by D&D's extreme ability requirements. Of course, fluff-wise, Paladins would be the bomb even at level 1, being chosen ones and all - but fluff and game mechanics are two different things.
Helping the injured is a Priest's job - Paladin's are their god's soldiers/warriors.
Of course, protecting the weak is a Paladin's duty, but you can protect people by either shielding them (tank) or destroying the attackers (damage) - you have to choose as a game designer.
I'd go for damage, because, quite frankly, I had it with these "political correct" Holy Warriors who don't do damage primarily (because good guys can't fight, amirite?).

And helping the injured doesn't sound knightly at all - Traditionally, knights were to protect the weak and destroy evil. If anything, a historical knight would be a DD/Tank class with no healing/buffing at all.

You could, however, say that famous Knights "buffed" the morale of their army (although that was more of a preacher's job also - reciting prayers and sermons to incite hate against the enemy).

First, I never said anything about passive paladins. Paladins are anything but passive, they should be the first to lead the charge, as their faith is that strong. You can't be on the front line without a hefty amount of defensive capability, or support.

If you say Heal/Tank hybrid, then, sorry, it's passive. Of course, you can include active abilities, but Healing and Tanking are by nature reactive - you know the old sayings about the sea and the mountain.

Since you ARE the support as a Warrior-Priest, you have to have that hefty amount of defensive capability. Auras have always been a big part of paladins, in D&D to DAoC to WoW to WAR.

In actuality, Auras came up with Diablo 2 - D&D's Paladin had no Aura per se, just a small AoE-debuff to evil entities at a higher level.
And being support by being OFFENSIVE is what WP's apparently will be, so while primarily defensive abilities in the front line are surely useful, it's completely different in nature from what Mythic apparently is planning.

You're talking about a mountain of metal that gives out support and is standing in the middle of the fight, I'm talking about a guy that inspires by doing damage and thus, Sigmar smiles upon him and give shim power to smite and support.

Completely different philosophies, and while both work - you're talking about a passive role, imho.
I hope this was understandable :(

Auras are buffs. Paladins wear heavy, usually the heaviest, armor in the game, and have at least some healing capability.

So do warriors and they aren't really what i would call reactive in most games. Of course, warriors don't have healing, that's why they do more damage.

The tank/buffer job is a paladin's job, traditionally with more emphasis on the tank part. Clerics are not tanks. Tanks deal melee damage in respectable amounts, clerics do no such thing. Clerics usually are the heavily armored/protected pure defensive specialists, including healing, buffing and curing.

I see you never played The Bard's Tale or D&D 3.5..... Clerics ARE the tanker/buffers in most games, even Asian ones.

Of course, completely agreed, but there are always the noobs out there that think that because they can't do as much damage as a Witch Hunter, their class sucks. WPs are the Empire's support role, and I feel I may save someone months of work into a WP when they get frustrated being that support. I can see the same with Chosen, people will complain because Marauders do more damage, but OMG the CHOSEN is so much more L33T LOOKING and should do L33T MORE DAMAGE!

Of course. But the majority wants to do support though damage.
This doesn't mean OMG DPS! but instead VIABLE (!!) dps, with aoe buffs and heals included.
As long as the DPS is viable, no one will cry (well except the enemies perhaps). YOu see, Mythic, with all their genius, obviously wants to do away with the old, passive healing spec and instead do an active healing spec where your healing is proportional with the damage you do.

Isn't that a good thing? I think it is.

See the paragraph above. WPs are closely related to their (properly done) paladin cousins from other games, maybe even having a little more of the clerical side in them from being the Emp's primary healer.

What you forget, is that apparently every class can heal itself (for a bit at least) - so while being the primary healer may mean "support or die!" in other games, in WAR, it seems different.

"If you only want to heal, this game is not for you."
Mythic wants to give us another view on supporting and for this, I salute them.

[Duty]

These long posts, although fun, are getting to be a drain on my DAoC time :p

D&D isn't the all out source for what a paladin is, and you seem to take it as the authority on such a matter. They may have invented the RPG genre and even the class, but that doesn't mean other games can do it different. What do players want out of a paladin-like class such as the Warrior-Priest? Before you answer you have to consider some other things that players are going to want: there has to be a primary support class somewhere, it has to be balanced (can't have high support, high survivablity, medium dps when the caster next to you has medium support capability, low survivability, and high dps). So, you have to give up support, survivability or dps. If you give up support, your team is left without a good healer. If you give up survivability, you're a squishy healer and you'll be trained, and dead, before you can make any impact (no one to heal if you're first target, except yourself, and if you have low survivability, you won't last long enough to do anything). The last option is to give up some dps.

Maybe specs should allow you to choose what to give up? I have a feeling that most noobs would give up the support part, and then people would complain they can never find healers, and WH's would complain that groups just want them to spec heals...etc. I have another post on this already (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12047&page=3 post number 37), and I disagree with implementing this option in such a manner, as the repeat of many games past would haunt WAR. The post above mine in the above link also says a lot.

"Paladin," like every word in any language, is a human constructed idea. I guess our arguing is inane as the definition of such a thing is going to be different from person to person. I guess you could argue that it has an "agreed definition" somewhere, but it still is a (at the very least, slightly) objective thing. I'll say my thought of a paladin is someone in heavy armor, plus some supplementary buffing, plus some supplementary healing, plus some supplementary dps, plus high survivability, minus the mitigation of a pure tank, minus the best support of a cleric or priest type, minus the raw dps of a wizard type. They're supplementary in most things they do, yet all those supplementary things add up to make them a highly valued, even necessary, part of a group.

[Der_Eisenhans]

These long posts, although fun, are getting to be a drain on my DAoC time :p

Oh noes! :( I'll try to keep it short. And give your enemies a good spanking from me :)

D&D isn't the all out source for what a paladin is, and you seem to take it as the authority on such a matter. They may have invented the RPG genre and even the class, but that doesn't mean other games can do it different.

That goes without saying. Yet, it's something most people know and can relate to. Alternatively, I could go on and on about historical "Holy Warriors" and most people wouldn't know wtf....
And actually, many, many (most?) games base their Paladins (and most other classes) more or less on D&D... so it isn't the worst example, imho.

What do players want out of a paladin-like class such as the Warrior-Priest? Before you answer you have to consider some other things that players are going to want: there has to be a primary support class somewhere, it has to be balanced (can't have high support, high survivablity, medium dps when the caster next to you has medium support capability, low survivability, and high dps). So, you have to give up support, survivability or dps. If you give up support, your team is left without a good healer. If you give up survivability, you're a squishy healer and you'll be trained, and dead, before you can make any impact (no one to heal if you're first target, except yourself, and if you have low survivability, you won't last long enough to do anything). The last option is to give up some dps.

That's the theoretical approach, but it sometimes doesn't work in practice. See TGTSNBN.....
For example, if your DPS is very high, you survivability isn't very important, v´because you kill 'em before they kill you. With high survivability, your DPS isn't as important, because you can "sit it out".
And so on. What's better? Depends on the game.

You shouldn't see this so conservative - you can change a lot by using different specs (Battle Priest in RO, anyone?) and as long as the balance is there, no one will have any problems, even if it means your WP will become a DPS monster that only heals once in a BG. It depends on the game system, really, and how much you get pigeonholed.
Theory != Practice.

I guess we will have to trust the Devs in this - Balancing is difficult and no one wants to be the gimped healer Paladin, ála "That other game" or the Son Goku class (because both is just boring).

"Paladin," like every word in any language, is a human constructed idea. I guess our arguing is inane as the definition of such a thing is going to be different from person to person. I guess you could argue that it has an "agreed definition" somewhere, but it still is a (at the very least, slightly) objective thing. I'll say my thought of a paladin is someone in heavy armor, plus some supplementary buffing, plus some supplementary healing, plus some supplementary dps, plus high survivability, minus the mitigation of a pure tank, minus the best support of a cleric or priest type, minus the raw dps of a wizard type. They're supplementary in most things they do, yet all those supplementary things add up to make them a highly valued, even necessary, part of a group.

This MAY work, of course (it's just not what I have in mind for a paladin, but this is getting off-topic more and more). It may go completely awry (see TGTSNBN's Paladins and Druids pre-TBC) - Really depends on how it's implemented.

So we may have to agree to disagree ;) The best case would be that you can spec in many different way, so I get my Warmonger and you get your Defender.

[Montague]

It's a Duty post, thus I feel compelled to respond... :D

These long posts, although fun, are getting to be a drain on my DAoC time :p

D&D isn't the all out source for what a paladin is, and you seem to take it as the authority on such a matter. They may have invented the RPG genre and even the class, but that doesn't mean other games can do it different. What do players want out of a paladin-like class such as the Warrior-Priest? Before you answer you have to consider some other things that players are going to want: there has to be a primary support class somewhere, it has to be balanced (can't have high support, high survivablity, medium dps when the caster next to you has medium support capability, low survivability, and high dps). So, you have to give up support, survivability or dps. If you give up support, your team is left without a good healer. If you give up survivability, you're a squishy healer and you'll be trained, and dead, before you can make any impact (no one to heal if you're first target, except yourself, and if you have low survivability, you won't last long enough to do anything). The last option is to give up some dps.

DIKU-based balance schemes are also not the all out source for class balance and definition. That being said it's not raw DPS that most frustrated paladins are after, it's combat effectiveness when doing something other than just sitting back and healing. They want enough DPS to be effective, and their survivability to be actually effective instead of meaning that they're the last to die, or that it just takes the DPS classes a few extra seconds to kill them (and then complain incessantly on the boards about it).


Maybe specs should allow you to choose what to give up? I have a feeling that most noobs would give up the support part, and then people would complain they can never find healers, and WH's would complain that groups just want them to spec heals...etc. I have another post on this already (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12047&page=3 post number 37), and I disagree with implementing this option in such a manner, as the repeat of many games past would haunt WAR. The post above mine in the above link also says a lot.

Please leave the Retnoob insinuations for the WoW forums. Ret paladins in WoW gimp their healing and mana pools only because of the retarded design of the tree that works against the baseline of the class rather than with it. Ret paladins are forced to stack attack power and melee crit at the expense of support in order to be just halfway decent in battle. What these paladins want is to be a force to be reckoned with in their own right, and not have to gimp their support abilities in order to do it. WAR seems to offer this, hence why all the interest.

"Paladin," like every word in any language, is a human constructed idea. I guess our arguing is inane as the definition of such a thing is going to be different from person to person. I guess you could argue that it has an "agreed definition" somewhere, but it still is a (at the very least, slightly) objective thing. I'll say my thought of a paladin is someone in heavy armor, plus some supplementary buffing, plus some supplementary healing, plus some supplementary dps, plus high survivability, minus the mitigation of a pure tank, minus the best support of a cleric or priest type, minus the raw dps of a wizard type. They're supplementary in most things they do, yet all those supplementary things add up to make them a highly valued, even necessary, part of a group.

That's one view of a paladin, and it's not invalid. However, there is a large segment of the player base that views the paladin as a heavily armored crusader actively smiting the infidel, not always supporting somebody else smiting for him. The Knights Templar were the most feared Christian force during the Crusades, and it wasn't because they were combat medics.

[Ruinx]

I'll say my thought of a paladin is someone in heavy armor, plus some supplementary buffing, plus some supplementary healing, plus some supplementary dps, plus high survivability, minus the mitigation of a pure tank, minus the best support of a cleric or priest type, minus the raw dps of a wizard type. They're supplementary in most things they do, yet all those supplementary things add up to make them a highly valued, even necessary, part of a group.

That's a wildly overcomplicated and apparently entirely and utterly MMORPG-based view of what "Paladin" consitutes. WoW's Paladin is very near D&D's Cleric, for example, yet for you they "lack the best support of a cleric or priest type" - So perhaps you're think of EQ-style Paladins?

Really good grief, though, you seem to be extremely narrow-minded on this issue with such over-detailed wording as "some supplementary buffing" (I guess WoW Paladins have "too much" buffing for you, because it's clearly not just supplementary, eh?). God forbid Paladins were primary buffers, or had no buffs at all, eh?

[Rofllove]

If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck then its a duck. Sorry guys, Warrior Priests are, pretty much, paladins with a different title. They have all the same basic tactics and back grounds. Weather you die hard warhammer fans want to admit it or not:

warrior priest= paladin

[Duty]

That's a wildly overcomplicated and apparently entirely and utterly MMORPG-based view of what "Paladin" consitutes. WoW's Paladin is very near D&D's Cleric, for example, yet for you they "lack the best support of a cleric or priest type" - So perhaps you're think of EQ-style Paladins?

Really good grief, though, you seem to be extremely narrow-minded on this issue with such over-detailed wording as "some supplementary buffing" (I guess WoW Paladins have "too much" buffing for you, because it's clearly not just supplementary, eh?). God forbid Paladins were primary buffers, or had no buffs at all, eh?

You didn't read the things I said before this post. I wasn't describing WoW's paladin, I was describing what a "paladin" brings to mind when someone says the word. Yes, it is an RPG-based view of what a paladin is, since we're talking about MMO paladins and how they should be implemented in WAR.

My point was that paladins have buffing, but clerics in most games tend to have better buffs, or more needed buffs, or buffs that have a greater effect.

Let's not start a flamefest either, this wasn't necessary.

That's one view of a paladin, and it's not invalid. However, there is a large segment of the player base that views the paladin as a heavily armored crusader actively smiting the infidel, not always supporting somebody else smiting for him. The Knights Templar were the most feared Christian force during the Crusades, and it wasn't because they were combat medics.

Armor + front line dps = fighter/warrior/armsman. Knights Templar were fighters, they didn't have holy powers, they were warriors. RPG paladins have heals, buffs, etc, and so they have to give up some dps. It doesn't mean their dps is outright gimp, it just means for balance sake, they have to give some up.

Please leave the Retnoob insinuations for the WoW forums. Ret paladins in WoW gimp their healing and mana pools only because of the retarded design of the tree that works against the baseline of the class rather than with it. Ret paladins are forced to stack attack power and melee crit at the expense of support in order to be just halfway decent in battle. What these paladins want is to be a force to be reckoned with in their own right, and not have to gimp their support abilities in order to do it. WAR seems to offer this, hence why all the interest.

Yes, please leave the retnoob insinuations out. I didn't target ret paladins from WoW, I targeted all those players from multiple games that complain that everyone wants them to spec heals. You can't have great dps + armor + great support abilities, it makes for an overpowered class. If you have ok dps + armor + ok support abilities, I can see it happening, and I think you guys are agreeing with me and not seeing it. I don't want WPs to be healbots, I don't want anyone to be a healbot (I played a priest in WoW, and a monk/nec in GW, no game needs more stupid boring healbots). It's just you can't expect to top all 3 areas, that's it.

That's the theoretical approach, but it sometimes doesn't work in practice. See TGTSNBN.....

It depends on the game system, really, and how much you get pigeonholed.
Theory != Practice.

I guess we will have to trust the Devs in this - Balancing is difficult and no one wants to be the gimped healer Paladin, ála "That other game" or the Son Goku class (because both is just boring).

Of course, this is why we have beta and patches to balance. Since I've not even played the game yet, all I can do is theorize. I just don't want to see dps on par with WoW's warrior, and support abilities on par with GW's Monk.

What I'm truly hoping for this class, and every other WAR support class, is that healing just isn't THAT important. Every class should be a little more self-supportive then in other games, to make up for it. If you don't get heals, then you aren't going to just flop over and die (see WoW's warrior). So you WPs could have your smite-fest, throw a heal just in emergencies, and have your allies and yourself buffed to extremes with auras. If you just don't need the support, then you can effectively spec out of it and be fine...I hope that for you guys.

Oh noes! :( I'll try to keep it short. And give your enemies a good spanking from me :)

Heh, 102-18 for the day on my thid BD, I'd say mission accomplished.

[Montague]

Armor + front line dps = fighter/warrior/armsman. Knights Templar were fighters, they didn't have holy powers, they were warriors. RPG paladins have heals, buffs, etc, and so they have to give up some dps. It doesn't mean their dps is outright gimp, it just means for balance sake, they have to give some up.



Yes, please leave the retnoob insinuations out. I didn't target ret paladins from WoW, I targeted all those players from multiple games that complain that everyone wants them to spec heals. You can't have great dps + armor + great support abilities, it makes for an overpowered class. If you have ok dps + armor + ok support abilities, I can see it happening, and I think you guys are agreeing with me and not seeing it. I don't want WPs to be healbots, I don't want anyone to be a healbot (I played a priest in WoW, and a monk/nec in GW, no game needs more stupid boring healbots). It's just you can't expect to top all 3 areas, that's it.



Heh, 102-18 for the day on my thid BD, I'd say mission accomplished.

I think you're right, we are agreeing more than disagreeing. No paladin/hybrid player in his right mind expects to do the sheer damage of let's say a wizard/dedicated melee DPS class. The point of contention I think is how close a WP should be allowed to get. Too far and it can be overpowered, too low and you have the Order Of The Rubber Mace paladins from WoW. I think what the issue is that some (like myself) don't feel that the ability to heal and support is as valuable on the balance scale as others may think. I don't feel that a class that is able to heal and support should automatically be relegated to mediocre (read: crappy) DPS simply because they can heal and support. Don't make them battlemages of course, but don't play the NO DPS FOR YOU! card simply because of the existence of healing/support abilities.

[sonofsigmar]

the class description already answers the questions for you.

dedicated healer = runepriest

this guy is a dedicated healer, and a badass in survivability with his runes up. a runepriest might even be the last guy standing after healing everyone else and zapping some orcs here and there. this guy is a living hospital, a WP is not.

the WPs job is to CHARGE headfirst without thinking of danger or flinching, and wreak havoc on the enemy by stunning, rooting and debuffing and the awesome bonus of facemelting WHILE doing his healing. the WP is not a dedicated healer, and neither is the shaman, they cant sit back and tap "heal"

now as WPs our jobs are simple, rack up the debuffs, get the snares in, bludgeon people to death and summon enough righteous fury to hit another button that smacks face and heals everyone within our heal radius. i mean, the arguments should stop here, it gets no better. do your damage, because it heals at the same time. you cant do as much dps as the witch-hunter, but your entire group will appreciate when you crit an enemy with wave of righteousness that brings down his health and heals everyone near enough to hear your words.

dont get confused by other games. this is different. heals and buffs are radiated and some are cast. WPs are group rallying points, whose buffs are so good, the group needs to keep them alive because every second the WP is alive the more badass he becomes, much like the shaman. and for those who say WP dps should be sacrificed, im sorry for you. a WP or shaman at the peak of his power is the most devastating thing on a battlefield, because all that energy can greatly heal or greatly dispatch.

Thank God for Warhammer, this is a game where everyone is dangerous on the field.

[Duty]

Sigh...

I wish people would read things before posting a ton of assumptions.

This is WAR, we know that. I've been around this place for over a year if you count the lurking I did before I registered. I know perfectly well, and am glad of this concept, that healers aren't just sit back and cast heals on everyone. What you fail to understand is the discussion at hand. It's about balance. I'm going to use a basic model so as not to get overcomplicated with this.

Say you have a fight that lasts 1 minute. Black Orc vs Warrior-Priest. Let's say that the Black Orc has 10 seconds worth of stuns, and the Warrior-Priest, because he's just the smiting thing he is, does the same damage as the Black Orc. Now lets say the Black Orc wears slightly heavier armor and the Warrior-Priest can heal himself for a total of 100% of his max hp over that one minute (100% is QUITE low, consider healers in other games, that heal you for 100% of your max hp within seconds, not a whole minute).

Ok, 10 seconds worth of stuns should bring the WP's effective dps down to 50 seconds from that 1 minute. Let's say the BO has 10% more mitigation, so take 10% from 50 and you have 45 seconds worth of dps. The Black Orc is still at 60 seconds of dps. Once you factor in that 100% heal, which is effectively cutting the BO's damage in half, the BO now has 30 seconds worth of dps. The WP's damage:damage taken ratio would be astronomically higher once we figure in the actual healing ratio. I bet they can heal more then just 100% of their max hp per minute, and protectively buff themselves, and if they have any stuns themselves...you get the picture.

So, I honestly think it's funny how people are going to think they're going to be doing great damage numbers. I doubt we'll see abysmal dps, and in fact, I'd be the WPs dps will be pretty good. But something is going to give, you can't have it all otherwise there's little reason to bring along anything but WPs. A group of 6 WPs that can buff each other, heal each other (gl killing them all), and now focus fire and kill things extremely quickly, all while wearing good armor and being very difficult to focus fire down themselves...it's too much.

[Der_Eisenhans]

Sigh...

I wish people would read things before posting a ton of assumptions.

This is WAR, we know that. I've been around this place for over a year if you count the lurking I did before I registered. I know perfectly well, and am glad of this concept, that healers aren't just sit back and cast heals on everyone. What you fail to understand is the discussion at hand. It's about balance. I'm going to use a basic model so as not to get overcomplicated with this.

Say you have a fight that lasts 1 minute. Black Orc vs Warrior-Priest. Let's say that the Black Orc has 10 seconds worth of stuns, and the Warrior-Priest, because he's just the smiting thing he is, does the same damage as the Black Orc. Now lets say the Black Orc wears slightly heavier armor and the Warrior-Priest can heal himself for a total of 100% of his max hp over that one minute (100% is QUITE low, consider healers in other games, that heal you for 100% of your max hp within seconds, not a whole minute).

Ok, 10 seconds worth of stuns should bring the WP's effective dps down to 50 seconds from that 1 minute. Let's say the BO has 10% more mitigation, so take 10% from 50 and you have 45 seconds worth of dps. The Black Orc is still at 60 seconds of dps. Once you factor in that 100% heal, which is effectively cutting the BO's damage in half, the BO now has 30 seconds worth of dps. The WP's damage:damage taken ratio would be astronomically higher once we figure in the actual healing ratio. I bet they can heal more then just 100% of their max hp per minute, and protectively buff themselves, and if they have any stuns themselves...you get the picture.

So, I honestly think it's funny how people are going to think they're going to be doing great damage numbers. I doubt we'll see abysmal dps, and in fact, I'd be the WPs dps will be pretty good. But something is going to give, you can't have it all otherwise there's little reason to bring along anything but WPs. A group of 6 WPs that can buff each other, heal each other (gl killing them all), and now focus fire and kill things extremely quickly, all while wearing good armor and being very difficult to focus fire down themselves...it's too much.

You're aware that you have to choose only a few tactics for any given fight. Not to mention using Righteous Fury for healing AND damage AND buffs, right?

What you're doing is blind theorycrafting, calculating theoretical numbers in theoretical situations with theoretical enemies.
You're aware this is what "that company" obviously does for balancing and that it just doesn't work this way, right?

As I said: Theory != Practice.

Not to mention that we don't have any hard numbers on the healing, buffs, or damage. What if the WP only gives out minimal healing and more DPS? We don't know right now.

In TGTSNBN, the Paladin's damage is non-existant (except if overgeared), because of healing and survivability (which only exists on paper, as there are too many ways around it). Would it be OP if he got damage?

No, of course not. While on paper, it may seem extremely imba, in practice you have to specialise, so it balances out in the end (if you spec and gear for damage, ie. retribution, you can't tank and your heals are so small and few it won't make a difference).

TL;DR: Too many unknowns for any calculations to be viable.

[Montague]

Sigh...

Say you have a fight that lasts 1 minute. Black Orc vs Warrior-Priest. Let's say that the Black Orc has 10 seconds worth of stuns, and the Warrior-Priest, because he's just the smiting thing he is, does the same damage as the Black Orc. Now lets say the Black Orc wears slightly heavier armor and the Warrior-Priest can heal himself for a total of 100% of his max hp over that one minute (100% is QUITE low, consider healers in other games, that heal you for 100% of your max hp within seconds, not a whole minute).

Ok, 10 seconds worth of stuns should bring the WP's effective dps down to 50 seconds from that 1 minute. Let's say the BO has 10% more mitigation, so take 10% from 50 and you have 45 seconds worth of dps. The Black Orc is still at 60 seconds of dps. Once you factor in that 100% heal, which is effectively cutting the BO's damage in half, the BO now has 30 seconds worth of dps. The WP's damage:damage taken ratio would be astronomically higher once we figure in the actual healing ratio. I bet they can heal more then just 100% of their max hp per minute, and protectively buff themselves, and if they have any stuns themselves...you get the picture.



As I'm sure you're aware Duty, I'm no fan of 1v1 balance but that's for another thread. Let's go with your assumption.

The Black Orc is a tank/DPS class. Let's assume that the tank has 10% more base life than the WP, which is being generous compared to the WoW paradigm. Using your math, and assuming that the WP can maintain as steep a gain of life as a tank class given equal gear, that brings the WP down to 40 seconds of DPS.

Now then, how much time does the Warrior Priest need to heal? Is he blowing one big instant heal? or several small ones? Is he healing AND dpsing at the same time (that's huge)? Let's say the WP needs 3 heals to heal 100%: 1 big heal, 1 medium heal, 1 heal over time. We'll assume that the WP plays perfectly or that the BO is stupid and the WP never gets interrupted. Assume a 1.5 second global cooldown/cast time for each heal and that's -4.5 seconds on the WP. That brings him down to 35.5 seconds of DPS.

Given that the Orc's debuffs and morale cancel out the WP's buffs and morale, we need a Black Orc DPSing with a two-hander to do 18% more damage to balance out, given some very generous assumptions (no spell interruptions, a tank class only having 10% more life given equal gear).

Should the WP's damage be less? I would say yes, but not nearly as severely as you're making it out.

[Duty]

Cmon guys, it's an example to illustrate a point, not a hard set of numbers.

Maybe this is diving too deep into 1v1 balance without considering group balance, I've thought about this as well.

What does a Black Orc do in a group? He's a protector. When a caster is being focused, the healer is his primary saver, but what happens when the healer gets focused and can't cast? That's when the tank steps in with taunts, guard, and stuns. Your primary task is to keep your healers (and casters to a lesser extent, as the healer shouldn't have much trouble keeping them up when he's unharassed) alive and well.

Do Black Orcs really rely on their dps with this role? Not really, they rely on their taunts, armor, hp, run speed, stuns, and weapon speed (when trying to interrupt a caster). The job of dps is more up to the Choppas and Squiggies on his team.

So far my comparison, dps wise, has been with heavy tanks. Ok, sorry, but WPs and no other healer is going to do as much dps as Choppas, Hammerers, Maguses (correct plural? Magi, Maguses?), etc, without giving up a lot of something else. But there probably isn't much wrong if their dps is up to a Black Orc's, or other heavy tank. I'm hoping for this. I'm hoping heavy tank sword/board dps isn't crap like it is in so many other games (Now den, some times what da boyz need is a lad what can take a beating, and beat back!). Nah, this game is revolutionary in this approach, and to make up for it, and keep classes balanced, they need to make support class's support capabilities lower, and at the same time make everyone else's self-sustainability higher. It makes everyone happy, as WPs get to smash things, and not have to spec for just healing, and everyone else gets to stay alive a decent amount of time (not to mention it's the ideal model for 1v1 balance as well). It also saves me the frustration of auto-losing when a healer comes over the hill and heals the person I've been fighting the past 45 seconds to full instantly.

It's a genius revolution in the genre. Support and tank classes have been boring (and in the case of tanks, often useless as tanks in PvP) in nearly every game I've played. People like to get a killing blow, and earn it (not just happen to get the final blow coming into a fight, but doing 60% of the dps and interrupting their heal perfectly to get it), they don't like to sit back and say, "Now you all go have fun and I'll make sure you don't die!"

[Wisdom]

Hi,

Sorry to move away from an indepth, detailed, hypothetical fight but here's kinda a different point but not really (and I hope it was already said in the 6 pages of posts before this...) but, I'm excited to see what playing a Warrior Priest will be like!

It looks like EA Mythic is definately trying to take all of "hate" towards TGTSNBN and the failed class... and using it as constructive critism. I don't think the Warrior Priest is going to be a "Paladin". I've read the Empire army book by GW that EA Mythic is working with; these guys get stronger the more they fight! (Watch the Mark of Chaos open cinamatics...just gives me chills!) Plus, there's links and descriptions of Warrior Priest all over the place for WAR.

Personally, I loved my Palidin (and my Druid for that matter) in Diablo 2 when Blizzard had it right... and that could be just me. Why they changed it, I'll never understand...moving on...

My point is, I agree, They're Not Paladins, and I don't think we have to fear them turning into one. My $.02

[Oasis]

They seem so boring like Paladin in WoW though..all you do is hit and hit and hit until you notice you can do a spell and use it..then hit and hit and hit. Kinda the reason why i didnt like paladins...well i liked retibution spec but thats it.

[Duty]

Personally, I loved my Palidin (and my Druid for that matter) in Diablo 2 when Blizzard had it right... and that could be just me. Why they changed it, I'll never understand...moving on...

Considering D2 was a game where healing was totally unnecessary...

How do you get a class that is expected to heal in a game that requires it right...I think WAR will be that game.

[Dracnye]

I can guarantee that the chance of that happening will decrease if you stop comparing the warriorpriests to paladins or that horrible game that spawned them.

So by the horrible game that spawned Paladins, I hope you mean Dungeons and Dragons, cause WoW doesn't have an original idea in that game whatsoever, it's just a cheap imitation of the Warhammer World, combined with Dungeons and Dragons.

[sonofsigmar]

welli think this thread is trying to say that WP's are not paladins, and so doing getting us to put forth our ideas that would differentiate the two.

what needs to happen is this game should make sure that damage is just as important as support and healing is just as necessary as timely interruption/taunts/stuns etc. then make sure every class can do its job as described, and lastly that every good player can do this job well.

thats all Mythic need to do IMO, because in other games, you pick a healing class then find out that it sucks compared to say another or two other healers. if you pick a support class, no one notices your fantastic on-time heals, life-saving stuns or mezzes and shielding and the star of the show is the dps-class. this happens alot, but if WAR can make sure that everyone can do a good job, and that numbers dont determine everything, this game will be just fine.

the balance issue is covered in another thread, but i dont think its a big deal as long as the design team play tests every single class and can tell the client base without a doubt that every class is performing as expected, then leaving the matter at that: without excessive buff/nerfing cycles.

if that can be done, then this game will not only be great, but unique because i know for a fact that almost all other games suffer from such pitfalls in class performance which will inevitably spill over to class balance.

[heavyhebrew]

They seem so boring like Paladin in WoW though..all you do is hit and hit and hit until you notice you can do a spell and use it..then hit and hit and hit. Kinda the reason why i didnt like paladins...well i liked retibution spec but thats it.

retnoob. :p

[Der_Eisenhans]

retnoob. :p

Ret 4 Lyfe. :cool:

Edit: Everytime I think of Ret-Pallies, I think of that Hooligan Motto "You don't like us - we don't care" ;)

[Jamuset]

I admit that I haven't read this thread all the way through (Got to about 3/4 through 3rd page) but I'd like to post a question.

First, backstory to build the basis of the question: I started MMO's with FFXI, and fell in live with the Paladin class. I really loved to tank, but I also really liked the whole totally moral, chivalry-above-all-else backstory with the divine religious powers. Since then I've played Paladins in WoW(in which "pallies" were not the "pallies" I loved) and Vanguard:SoH(a game whose heart was in the right place but whose brain never caught up)

Now, finally, the question: I am totally torn between rolling WP and KOTBS! On one hand, I get to tank and be chivalrous. On the other, WP's are more like the Paladin Archetype that i love. Any advice?

So yeah, sorry for the text but there it is.

PS: The reason why this question is in this thread is because this thread involves discussions about the nature of the Warrior Preist class, how it falls (or doesn't fall) into the Paladin archetype, and also discusses Empire Knights as possibly being closer to Paladins than WP's (this is all from a few pages back).

[Volcano Mentality]

You dont want for warrior priest class to do 50% in melee and 50% in healing... "hey look my attacks got the enemy down to 40% hp and when I try to heal a friend it wasnt efficient enough to keep him alive"

And then players will go wtf??? No matter what I do I cant dps on par with others and I cant heal on par with others even if I am wearing elite dps gear or elite healing gear.

Designer him self said: "When you see a player in combat you'll know exactly what they can do and its straight forward" Meh the promised looks faint already.

Why can the hybrids in leading mmorpg do any any of 3 things (healing/dps/tanking) if spec properly and geared properly? because thats what keeps people paying for their subscription. Hey if I want to sit back and chain heal black orcs and dwarf warrriors for next 15 hours I can do so, if I want to dps and I am sick of healing for next few weeks I can do that too.

If WAR will introduce shaman/warrior-priest/runepriest as a permanent 1 profession (developing your character only around healing or only around dps PERMANENTLY) then people will get sick of it and will simply go back to their old mmorpg.

I agree with your last line to a certain degree. People may get tired of playing the same thing all the time, but that's not guarateed. I intend to play the WP because it's what I've always wanted to be; a melee fighter that can heal and buff to keep himself and his buddies alive through hard spots. I doubt I'll be getting tired of it any time soon. I'm hoping to find a balance spec that allows me to be a magically-powered melee master, and if there is one I will never get tired of it.

The main problem IMO is the fact that people might force you into being a heal-spec WP, so that THEY stay alive and have fun while leaving you to be their support. This is trying to be stopped with the RF system, so I feel entirely confident that I will NEVER be a healbot.

I highly doubt that you'll be "inefficient" with healing, as the WP is the ONLY Empire healer. You're the sole provider of survival and buffs for the Empire race, and as such your spells MUST be effective (there's no way in my mind the producers will me dumb enough to make the elves better healers, and so have everyone rely on them).

I also doubt that you'll be a poor dps fighter as well, as everyone can dps, and the WP MUST bash a few heads before he can do anything else, leading to the point that you can't have one without the other, thus a 50-50 split baseline.

((Sorry about this post being unorganized, I'm a little bit scattered today:)))

[snapmaster]

@volcano and Sangradedio



There's three package areas, what we're currently calling Core, Specialization, and Secondary (and those names probably will change).

So, for example, as a Shaman my core skills are the skills that every Shaman will learn. I have choice in when I learn the skills, but I don't have choice in what skills I learn. If you're a Shaman and I'm a Shaman, by the end of our Career, we'll know the same Core skills. Ok? That's what makes me a Shaman and that's what makes you a Shaman.

For Specialization and Secondary, though, you have a limited number of points to spend in Specialization and Secondary points. This is where you get diversity. So this is probably 20-25% of your character will be different from other Shaman, in how you spend your points in Secondary and Specialization skills. So this is, different heals, different nukes, different types of abilities - you name it.


I think these specialization and secondary skills are the skills where you'll be able to either strengthen you're healing or dps abilities.

Just thought i'd point that out. it seemed relevant to the discussion.

[Volcano Mentality]

I admit that I haven't read this thread all the way through (Got to about 3/4 through 3rd page) but I'd like to post a question.

First, backstory to build the basis of the question: I started MMO's with FFXI, and fell in live with the Paladin class. I really loved to tank, but I also really liked the whole totally moral, chivalry-above-all-else backstory with the divine religious powers. Since then I've played Paladins in WoW(in which "pallies" were not the "pallies" I loved) and Vanguard:SoH(a game whose heart was in the right place but whose brain never caught up)

Now, finally, the question: I am totally torn between rolling WP and KOTBS! On one hand, I get to tank and be chivalrous. On the other, WP's are more like the Paladin Archetype that i love. Any advice?

So yeah, sorry for the text but there it is.

PS: The reason why this question is in this thread is because this thread involves discussions about the nature of the Warrior Preist class, how it falls (or doesn't fall) into the Paladin archetype, and also discusses Empire Knights as possibly being closer to Paladins than WP's (this is all from a few pages back).









I understand your dilema. I too started with FFXI and fell in love with their Paladin class as well, but I also found that I loved the Dark Knight class (wierd, I know, what with them being near-polar opposites). I tried combining them, as a Dark Knight/Paladin, and found that it didn't work too well in that game, but it was a good idea in general; a dps character who could heal and buff in tight spots. That's basically what I see the Warrior Priest to be.

So now your choice comes down to this; what do you like better? Tanking, holding to a code of chivalry, and protecting your friends by taking their damage for them(the KotBS); or killing things in your god's name, healing and buffing, and protecting your friends by soothing their pains?

The WP is the best fit into the Paladin archetype, and the KotBS is the best fit into the "Knight in Shining Armor" archetype.

[Volcano Mentality]

They seem so boring like Paladin in WoW though..all you do is hit and hit and hit until you notice you can do a spell and use it..then hit and hit and hit. Kinda the reason why i didnt like paladins...well i liked retibution spec but thats it.

The Warrior Priest will have offensive abilities that generate Rightous Fury, so they'll be more like a mix between an Arms Warrior and a Retribution Paladin. Definately fun IMO.

[Volcano Mentality]

So by the horrible game that spawned Paladins, I hope you mean Dungeons and Dragons, cause WoW doesn't have an original idea in that game whatsoever, it's just a cheap imitation of the Warhammer World, combined with Dungeons and Dragons.

Damn straight.

The big problem with these threads is that people say "Warrior Priest is NOT a Paladin" because everyone knows the WoW Paladin, but not the original Paladin, which is just as much a destroyer of evil as a defender of good. What we SHOULD be saying is "Warrior Priest is the ORIGINAL Paladin."

[Jamuset]

So now your choice comes down to this; what do you like better? Tanking, holding to a code of chivalry, and protecting your friends by taking their damage for them(the KotBS); or killing things in your god's name, healing and buffing, and protecting your friends by soothing their pains?

The WP is the best fit into the Paladin archetype, and the KotBS is the best fit into the "Knight in Shining Armor" archetype.

I guess you're right, WP really isn't as much in line with chivalry as it is with divine retribution and such. Which makes me lean towards KOTBS, thing is, how will soaking up damage for others be implemented in PvP I wonder

[Norick13]

I wish people would stop comparing WoW to this game.
Yes they are both MMOs
Yes they are "fantasy" based
No they are not the same thing

[Blackmoore]

Asking people to not compare the two is pointless and futile. When WoW came out, it was compared to EQ, which was the biggest thing on the block.

I would think that people should welcome the comparrison -- if only so WAR does not make the same mistakes that WoW made (and they made a ton).

The Warhammer Warrior Priests are very paladin-like in the generic sense of that word -- EQ paladins, D&D Paladins, etc. If Warrior Priests are craptastic like WoW Paladins, I'll never play one. WoW has probably sullied the name Paladin for ever and no MMO will call their character Paladin out of fear of association.

[Remnant]

WoW has probably sullied the name Paladin for ever and no MMO will call their character Paladin out of fear of association.

Yeah, Blizzard did a number on what the class originally was. I feel for all the WPs out there, because all the fat-head idiots from WoW who love to tell everyone else how to play, but would never play that way themselves will be flopping their ignorant jaws all over the place for at least a little while.

[sonofsigmar]

well to answer Jamusen, taunting will be used to soak up damage in pvp and i think its an ability exclusively available to tanks.

what this means is that as a KoTBS, among other things you can taunt a player and reduce all damage they do to your friends by upto 50% thus forcing them to attack YOU first until the taunt debuff wears off. and with collision detection, a tank an actually get in the way of an enemy and shield his weaker friend. these two, taunting, and collision detection are works of genius if you ask me, because they can actually save lives in pvp instead of making tanks useless pieces of metal clanking all over a battleground before a caster class puts them out of their misery.

and as for paladins if WoW was not as big as it was, the term "paladin" would still retain its original meaning. but i trust not everyone is so moronic as to associate EVERYTHING in the real world with WoW, but if a game has a paladin class they will have alot of PR work to do to convince clients that their paladin is not anywhere near Blizzards stupid design.

as one poster put it, there is no way the comparison will stop, wishing for it wont help because its everywhere you go, and not only WP/Paladin comparison. people will compare server stability, customer service, class design, balance, graphics, music, quest system. in short, every damn thing from WoW will be compared to its counterpart in WAR because both are MMOs and nothing will change.

back to WPs, just make them effective, whether at healing or damage if they choose. and the decision should be respected, because at core level WPs are buffers and healers, thats why we exist and NO ONE else in Empire can heal or buff. but we can specialize to do damage and get secondary talents to do further damage, or mix things up and make our buffing better than damage or healing.

all im saying is Mythic should give choices then respect them, once a toon's chosen path is respected by Mythic, then everyone else will do the same, and WAR can never turn into WoW from that point on.

[Volcano Mentality]

I guess you're right, WP really isn't as much in line with chivalry as it is with divine retribution and such. Which makes me lean towards KOTBS, thing is, how will soaking up damage for others be implemented in PvP I wonder

There will be tanks, like the KotBS, so if you wanna do that, go KotBS I say. If you wanna kill things as a profession and heal people as you do it, go Warrior Priest.

EDIT: I agree completely with what the above post says.

There will always be a comparison between the two games. Deal with it.

The KotBS will work exactly that way from all that I've read.

The WP will work exactly that way from all that I've read, and so long as the player's choice is respected for their specialization, I agree that this will never become WoW.

[sonofsigmar]

There will be tanks, like the KotBS, so if you wanna do that, go KotBS I say. If you wanna kill things as a profession and heal people as you do it, go Warrior Priest.

EDIT: I agree completely with what the above post says.

There will always be a comparison between the two games. Deal with it.

The KotBS will work exactly that way from all that I've read.

The WP will work exactly that way from all that I've read, and so long as the player's choice is respected for their specialization, I agree that this will never become WoW.

haha dude, did you play a paladin in WoW? i did and it was a good experience at first then they messed up, and i regret it but i had no choice, i will always play the crusader-against-evil archetype, whichever game it is i play.

thats why im going with WP, something to do with erasing evil from the face of the earth by completely kicking , healing and buffing my buddies so they are even more badass. revered by the good, feared by the wicked. that is the true path.

i hope for us both Mythic doesnt mess up with this game and make it a Vanguard, much less a WoW.

[Paragon]

You have to keep in mind that Warcraft's interpretation of the Paladin is their own just as the Warrior from WoW is in no way relative to the Warrior of EQ or the Warrior of DAoC other than they can generally take the most damage. While these classes are all similarly named they are created and played entirely different than one another.

Judging from DAoC I forsee the WAR classes being no different from those of Camelot. They will be diverse and original and I doubt anyone will have a problem finding their niche. The one thing we should really be wondering is will all this diversity and originality cause a mess of balancing issues the way it did with DAoC? Blizzard decided to take the 'easy' way out and give each realm the same classes, virtually giving up on the balance and destroying the lore to appease the technical aspects of the game. Mythic doesn't have that option/convenience here so they need to get it right, hopefully sooner than later.

[Volcano Mentality]

haha dude, did you play a paladin in WoW? i did and it was a good experience at first then they messed up, and i regret it but i had no choice, i will always play the crusader-against-evil archetype, whichever game it is i play.

thats why im going with WP, something to do with erasing evil from the face of the earth by completely kicking , healing and buffing my buddies so they are even more badass. revered by the good, feared by the wicked. that is the true path.

i hope for us both Mythic doesnt mess up with this game and make it a Vanguard, much less a WoW.

Haha, yes I did, and still do, play a Paladin (Retribution, of course). :D

It was a good experience until I started getting into parties and got yelled at every time I melee'd.:(

I'm just like you; I will forever be the crusader-against-evil archetype no matter what. In fact, my WP's name will be "Dante the Crusader" (named Dante because I love it and because he's not the average WP, therefore not quite fittingly named). 8-)

I salute you, brother, and toast to the hopes and prayers that Warhammer Online will NEVER become like Vanguard or WoW. :-)

[Oasis]

retnoob. :p
holynoob:D

[sonofsigmar]

Haha, yes I did, and still do, play a Paladin (Retribution, of course). :D

It was a good experience until I started getting into parties and got yelled at every time I melee'd.:(

I'm just like you; I will forever be the crusader-against-evil archetype no matter what. In fact, my WP's name will be "Dante the Crusader" (named Dante because I love it and because he's not the average WP, therefore not quite fittingly named). 8-)

I salute you, brother, and toast to the hopes and prayers that Warhammer Online will NEVER become like Vanguard or WoW. :-)

/salute man

[RockpapperWaagh]

I currently play a prot pali.

My hope is that WP plays somewhat like a trispec pali only usefull.

Beat on a maurader for a few moments, sigmar thinks im awsome, pop my tank a heal, go back to beating on a maurader.

All with a shaven head

[Dorian]

The true thread name should not be They are not paladins but rather:

WoW PALADINS ARE CLERICS NOT PALADINS.



Uhh.. Not really. If you believe that WoW Paladin's are even remotely similar to Clerics then your concept of a Cleric is obviously fogged. If anything the Warrior-Priest class of WarHammer most closely resembles a Cleric from a DnD perspective. Which I repeat, is very far from a WoW Paladin.

[Volcano Mentality]

/salute to SonOfSigmar, Paragon, and RockPaperWaaagh. GO PALADINS!

[Oasis]

Boo paladins suck. Watch as my chosen beat the crap out of every single warrior priest because they ate my cookie from my cookie jar.:mad:

[sonofsigmar]

Boo paladins suck. Watch as my chosen beat the crap out of every single warrior priest because they ate my cookie from my cookie jar.:mad:

are you serious?

wait, dont answer that

[Vaelin]

It seems like a lot of the Chosen fanatics are expecting their class to be an all-out, balls to the wall DPS monster that will always destroy Warrior Priests (because it's what happened in the cinematic!) and pretty much anything else. I think they're in for as much of a reality check as those who think the Warrior Priest will never have to throw a heal. Granted, both classes will be a lot of fun and do plenty of meleeing, but probably won't play to their full potential unless the player utilizes every facet of the class.

Just as Warrior Priests will have some healing potency, the Chosen will excel in damage absorption. In a way, they're both very similar in that while they'll probably do decent damage, success in battle will depend more on outlasting their opponent by restoring health or not taking as much damage to begin with. The trade off will be that they'll almost certainly have fewer directly offensive combat options than classes like the Witch Hunter, Marauder, Orc Choppa, or Hammerer.

EAMythic isn't completely eliminating the traditionally boring "chore" roles of healer/tank. Rather they're intending to make them fun and interactive, and largely secondary to everybody's primary role - to beat the #@*& out of each other. WAR has the flexibility to do this, because the endgame won't consist exclusively of massive scale care bear raids that demand min/maxing and extreme specialization (including requiring massive amounts of continuous heal-spam and maximizing tank mitigation even if it means hitting like a wet noodle).

[Volcano Mentality]

It seems like a lot of the Chosen fanatics are expecting their class to be an all-out, balls to the wall DPS monster that will always destroy Warrior Priests (because it's what happened in the cinematic!) and pretty much anything else. I think they're in for as much of a reality check as those who think the Warrior Priest will never have to throw a heal. Granted, both classes will be a lot of fun and do plenty of meleeing, but probably won't play to their full potential unless the player utilizes every facet of the class.

Just as Warrior Priests will have some healing potency, the Chosen will excel in damage absorption. In a way, they're both very similar in that while they'll probably do decent damage, success in battle will depend more on outlasting their opponent by restoring health or not taking as much damage to begin with. The trade off will be that they'll almost certainly have fewer directly offensive combat options than classes like the Witch Hunter, Marauder, Orc Choppa, or Hammerer.

EAMythic isn't completely eliminating the traditionally boring "chore" roles of healer/tank. Rather they're intending to make them fun and interactive, and largely secondary to everybody's primary role - to beat the #@*& out of each other. WAR has the flexibility to do this, because the endgame won't consist exclusively of massive scale care bear raids that demand min/maxing and extreme specialization (including requiring massive amounts of continuous heal-spam and maximizing tank mitigation even if it means hitting like a wet noodle).

Very well put! :)

I never said that I'd never heal as a Warrior Priest, just that, as you said, it would be secondary to kicking Chaos butt if I so chose.

About the Chosen fantics; Damn straight! Just because your boy got a lucky cheapshot on the Warrior Priest in the cinematic doesn't mean your gonna be killing us very often (if at all IMO :p:cool:).

I will fall to my knees, crying tears of joy, if your prediction of PvE comes true.

[sonofsigmar]

well i really dont mind what the chosen think, because whether or not they think they can give everyone a default beating, i know for a fact this is false. any player that has half a brain and the ability to heal himself/herself has very little to worry about in balanced situations. moreover, who says this game will compose majority 1v1 situations? no, no way, if a chosen thinks they can rush priests in a packed battlefield, they'll just be cannon fodder for the engineers and wizards. thats the fun aspect of this game, the better you can play as a team the more invincible you become.

another surprising thing is in a video of some scenario pvp, the final screen showed the RUNEPRIEST had the highest dps in the group. i laughed and double-checked. it was exclusively a dwarf/orc encounter, and among the dwarfs the healer did the highest damage. this does not mean the priest was uber, because throughout the video, no one was attacking him, he just kept zapping the poor orcs to death and healing his tank without a scratch. this was in footage from Toronto gamesday, amazing job by Kilrogg. http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11897 (video)
http://coattails.net/WAR/images/bela_lieke.png (actual page)
what does this mean? this game is more team-oriented than a solo thing. it makes me sigh to read of over-the-top WPs who may think they wont have to heal again. but if you ever saw the above mentioned video, if the priest did not ever heal, his tank would be dead in seconds and he would die in even less time. we musnt forget, our purpose is to build up RF to do three things in order of priority

1. provide greater and more powerful buffs to our allies (WPs have some of the best buffs in WAR)
2. heal our allies
3. smash face

if a WP is busy killing when his friend is at the threshold of death, then he isnt doing much, and will probably die sooner and lose even more often.
the thing is people might be haunted by WoW's over-emmphasis on healing. the problem was as a damage dealing melee hybrid such as a paladin, there was no way to synergize healing and damage. and if one chose to heal exclusively, their damage became crap. if they chose to deal damage and became really good at it, then asking them for heals was like asking for blood from a stone, because of a really limited mana pool, which could only be useful for damage.

how is this different from WAR? well at the peak of one's power/morale not only do power heals get more potent, they also have a reduced casting time if any. and any HoTs or AoE heals get more effective the longer you are alive and most importantly, the longer you ARE IN COMBAT. therefore, letting friends die is in direct detriment to both you and them, and as a WP, you will NEVER see any of your more spectacular abilities if you or your friends keep dying.

well, and as for our softer, healing side, i think Mythic did a fantastic job of making it really secondary.look at this fellow http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8236/untitled41cn.jpg

does he look like he even wants to heal you?

[Vaelin]

I deliberated a bit longer on this topic, and wrote up a semi-lengthy blog post. Current and former WoW players will find it of particular interest, as I link to WoW census data (graphs!) indicating a marked decline in Paladin popularity relative to other WoW classes.

Hammer of Sigmar (http://hammerofsigmar.com) <-- My blog

In a nutshell, I point out why I think the B******d Paladin sucks, and thus why threads like this one just won't go away - nobody wants a repeat of that horrible mistake.

[Volcano Mentality]

Nice blog!

Oh yea, and I almost forgot:

/salute to Vaelin. I eagerly await the day that I shall have the honor of fighting beside you. :p

[Ravana]

We warrior priests will have to stick together and look out for eachother, lest the chaos psychotic freaks hunt us down and pick us apart one by one.

[sonofsigmar]

as much as i think youre right, have you seen the videos? i think we're more psychotic than the chaos dudes are.

1. we are on foot leading armies on horseback, charging opposing armies with some on horseback
2. we wear limited armor fighting fully armored freaks and huge daemons
3. we dont wear helmets

i think as a WP, i should live upto my reputation as the most reckless, crazy, psychotic and suicidal sociopath on the battlefield. but no one needs to worry, i'll watch their back as well.

[heavyhebrew]

Chosen players have to rave about how uber they are or people will notice the tentacle where their jibblies used to be.;)

I can't wait for this game to be released.
I am so excited about all the things that keep popping up about this game's mechanics.
I get the feeling that this game will reward solid teamplay over TGTSNBN's gear zerg.
That video confirms it. The RP just kept casting, healing and buffing while his tanks and DPS did their jobs. Did I mention I can't wait for release?


A melee attack that heals...... so nice.

Vaelin, great blog by the way.

[Volcano Mentality]

as much as i think youre right, have you seen the videos? i think we're more psychotic than the chaos dudes are.

1. we are on foot leading armies on horseback, charging opposing armies with some on horseback
2. we wear limited armor fighting fully armored freaks and huge daemons
3. we dont wear helmets

i think as a WP, i should live upto my reputation as the most reckless, crazy, psychotic and suicidal sociopath on the battlefield. but no one needs to worry, i'll watch their back as well.

Haha, good point. Though I gotta say, Heavy's got a point about the tentacle jibblies thing... who other than a complete psychopath would want to live like that?!

Agreed, we are complete idiots. I mean, come on, charging a mounted knight on foot? I doubt Sigmar, no matter how loving a god he is, would even BOTHER saving our arse if we're THAT dumb. ;)

[sonofsigmar]

Haha, good point. Though I gotta say, Heavy's got a point about the tentacle jibblies thing... who other than a complete psychopath would want to live like that?!

Agreed, we are complete idiots. I mean, come on, charging a mounted knight on foot? I doubt Sigmar, no matter how loving a god he is, would even BOTHER saving our arse if we're THAT dumb. ;)

yeah you are right about that. i think thats why Sigmar smiles upon the WP and gives him greater blessings when he accomplishes such feats no one else would be capable of. now im not a lore buff, but i did look into some warhammer history, and this guy called Luthor Huss was a complete nutcase. if you thought Chaos was hardcore, this guy had lead in his veins.

i think it was such insanity that inspired the regular dudes to fight because chaos had cowered them so badly. why is it we are always at the front? its because, as i admit, chaos guys especially chosen, are scary. this man went into a dark foreboding forest by himself and killed all the undead in it before coming out, accomplishing something a whole village militia was scared to do. after this the guys got worked up and tossed aside their fear, seeing that a crazy, bald and practically unarmored dude could go in there and come out spattered in blood but unscathed.

it is even said of us that we can inspire entire armies to battle even when the most illustrious of marshalls and generals have been defied by the worried men. and when i saw a WP running towards a chaos army (one of the warhammer 40k videos) leading an imperial army on horseback, i knew the bald suckers were the class for me. only someone that insane, without any care for personal safety is able to inspire and lead armies in crushing chaos. and look, we can heal and resurrect them!! i cant wait to play, and rip chaos apart, tentacle from tentacle, mutation after mutation, damning their souls or redeeeming them in Sigmar's name.

i think this is the kind of mentality the WPs have lore-wise. maybe this kind of insanity isnt encouraged in gameplay, but im sure everyone out there will be damn scared of the chosen, and i think we are the only guys who shouldnt be afraid. look, no helmets!!!

[Volcano Mentality]

yeah you are right about that. i think thats why Sigmar smiles upon the WP and gives him greater blessings when he accomplishes such feats no one else would be capable of. now im not a lore buff, but i did look into some warhammer history, and this guy called Luthor Huss was a complete nutcase. if you thought Chaos was hardcore, this guy had lead in his veins.

i think it was such insanity that inspired the regular dudes to fight because chaos had cowered them so badly. why is it we are always at the front? its because, as i admit, chaos guys especially chosen, are scary. this man went into a dark foreboding forest by himself and killed all the undead in it before coming out, accomplishing something a whole village militia was scared to do. after this the guys got worked up and tossed aside their fear, seeing that a crazy, bald and practically unarmored dude could go in there and come out spattered in blood but unscathed.

i think this is the kind of mentality the WPs have lore-wise. maybe this kind of insanity isnt encouraged in gameplay, but im sure everyone out there will be damn scared of the chosen, and i think we are the only guys who shouldnt be afraid. look, no helmets!!!
I remember Huss! He was a TOTAL badass! I see your meaning now; we should inspire our friends in not only words, but in actions as well (albeit insane actions that no average man would dare to attempt). I'm looking forward to RPing an insane WP. Sounds frighteningly fun!

[sonofsigmar]

i just edited the above post.

it would be a shame if we were turned into a wand-waving fairy in future through the nerf/buff cycle that every game seems to have. i DESPERATELY hope mythic wont touch this ideology, as games workshop does tell us we may be weaker in strength, weaker in number but us WPs are infinitely stronger in faith, and that keeps the chaos back every time.

[Volcano Mentality]

i just edited the above post.

it would be a shame if we were turned into a wand-waving fairy in future through the nerf/buff cycle that every game seems to have. i DESPERATELY hope mythic wont touch this ideology, as games workshop does tell us we may be weaker in strength, weaker in number but us WPs are infinitely stronger in faith, and that keeps the chaos back every time.
Edit makes it better indefinately. I will be SO pissed off if we become priests with armor.

[RockpapperWaagh]

on topic

i would like to say a few simple words, just so we are all clear.....

The warrior-priest IS a paladin
i repeat
The warrior-priest IS a paladin

Its a paladin done right, a holy warrior that brings a big blunt object down atop his foes head while muttering prayers for strength and to fortifiy his allies.

He is in fact, the greatest paladin concept to date.

he could not be named a paladin in fear that WoW rejects would confuse the WP with WoWs much less usefull, mildly amusing to watch attempt something version of what a paladin is.

So............ the WP is in fact a paladin, the name change is so that the abomination of said name in other games doesn't carry over into this one.

[sonofsigmar]

on topic

i would like to say a few simple words, just so we are all clear.....

The warrior-priest IS a paladin
i repeat
The warrior-priest IS a paladin

Its a paladin done right, a holy warrior that brings a big blunt object down atop his foes head while muttering prayers for strength and to fortifiy his allies.

He is in fact, the greatest paladin concept to date.

he could not be named a paladin in fear that WoW rejects would confuse the WP with WoWs much less usefull, mildly amusing to watch attempt something version of what a paladin is.

So............ the WP is in fact a paladin, the name change is so that the abomination of said name in other games doesn't carry over into this one.

lets see, Warhammer existed long before Warcraft. the rights to most of the these creatures, such as green orcs were borrowed by other games from Games Workshop. in short, what you just said was fallacious, wrong and ill-concieved because as far as we all know, warrior-priests of Sigmar, chaos, and all those things were in existence not only before Warcraft, but before Everquest, Asherons Call, Diablo and all those other RPGs.

No single creature concept in WoW is original to Blizzard, and its nothing they or we should be ashamed of. they did a fantastic job of picking up all those things and adaping them into a good game, and they are enjoying their success. to say however, that something in warhammer, is a rendition of something existing in WoW is simply misguided. i cant even count how many posters have made this clear.

their playstyle may be similar, but dont forget, paladins existed as an archetype in many games before WoW, games where you had a character that could heal and deal damage. lets understand that, no game has refused to name their character a paladin out of fear of association yet, that is still to be seen.

[Duty]

Its a paladin done right, a holy warrior that brings a big blunt object down atop his foes head while muttering prayers for strength and to fortifiy his allies.

He is in fact, the greatest paladin concept to date.


Only part of your post I agree with :p

Every support class they're doing is support done right, it really is refreshing to not have healbots. Maybe support classes won't be totally rare (or absolutely essential on top of that) and people can play what they like instead of having to reroll a healbot for a guild. *Sniffle* a man can dream.

[Rotgut_Eadsmasha]

So............ the WP is in fact a paladin, the name change is so that the abomination of said name in other games doesn't carry over into this one.

What name change? They've been called Warrior Priests since the beginning of the Warhammer Universe.

[RockpapperWaagh]

*sigh*

1. I know the warhammer IP existed before the warcraft IP and that warcraft in fact took alot of its stuff from warhammer.

2. I in no way said that WoW was the all inventing god of the world.

I was stating that WoW RUINED the word paladin. No game in its right mind will call its version of paladin a paladin for a few years to come. So of course its called Warrior-priest. But we all know thats just code talk for a paladin.

If you have played as many hours on a WoW pali as I have, you know that between day 1 and now, they have butchered and mutilated the class so far from its original concept its disgusting.



To the comment about refreshing about not being a healbot, aye I agree its pretty impossible to even have a healbot with how the game mechanics are set up.


Also to sonofsigmar

Warhammer did not invent green orcs, sorry. You seem to think that the invention of the video game means all fantasy took from warhammer. well warhammer took from plenty of other sources. In no way is warhammer 100% original. Its a great IP, but it took most of its sources from PnP games and fairy tales. Mind you real fairy tales, not disney.

So my statement still stands that a warrior-priest is and always will be a paladin.

[Volcano Mentality]

A big problem I'm seeing here is that almost NO ONE realizes that a lot of the gamers are LITTLE KIDS. Not everyone is a Warhammer Lore fan (I've yet to read any lore aside from the backstory to Age of Reckoning), and for many WoW is their first fantasy MMO, so to flame people for using WoW in such a manner is like saying; "You're too young to talk!"

My first image of a Paladin was the FFXI version, which was purely a defender, with some healing on the side. My next image of the Paladin was the WoW version, a weak healbot that wears plate armor. The first was kinda cool, the second sucked, and I've only now found a third, which is by FAR the coolest I've seen. A true HOLY WARRIOR. I can't wait to play it.

In short, don't rag on people for being too young to know the history of the Paladin; it's just not right.

[sonofsigmar]

dude, rockpaper dont misunderstand me.

green orcs were invented first in Warhammer Lore BY GAMES WORKSHOP is what i meant. in other words, green orcs were first seen in the warhammer lore before the TT games and other games. they were a work of someones imagination in warhammer. pay attention to the fact that in JRR Tolkiens Lord of the Rings, orcs arent green. furthering the proof that green orcs first appeared in the warhammer world.

same for warrior priests. the word does not denote a code, it existed as a relevant class even before all these other classes called "paladin" in other games even existed. it should be obvious that once the concept was borrowed from Games Workshop, it was renamed to paladin and given a slightly different role.

yes paladins existed long before warhammer. but where do we first see hammer wielding holy men working on behalf of the church, some religion or deity? again from warhammer. real paladins worked in the kings court as body guards or something and had very little ties with the church if any. also, they swore to the king or emperor, not a deity.

thats what the OP and so many other posters were trying to say, and actually i learned from them. naturally i guessed Blizzard came up with all this fantasy we know, starting with Diablo. but i was wrong, and now i know Games Workshop and Tolkien invented everything we know. in Warhammer, their fighter-healers were called Warrior-Priests, to say that these people, who were actually the pioneers, are a code name or alias for a concept that infact came AFTER they did, is strange to me.

[RockpapperWaagh]

dude, rockpaper dont misunderstand me.

green orcs were invented first in Warhammer Lore BY GAMES WORKSHOP is what i meant. in other words, green orcs were first seen in the warhammer lore before the TT games and other games. they were a work of someones imagination in warhammer. pay attention to the fact that in JRR Tolkiens Lord of the Rings, orcs arent green. furthering the proof that green orcs first appeared in the warhammer world.

same for warrior priests. the word does not denote a code, it existed as a relevant class even before all these other classes called "paladin" in other games even existed. it should be obvious that once the concept was borrowed from Games Workshop, it was renamed to paladin and given a slightly different role.

yes paladins existed long before warhammer. but where do we first see hammer wielding holy men working on behalf of the church, some religion or deity? again from warhammer. real paladins worked in the kings court as body guards or something and had very little ties with the church if any. also, they swore to the king or emperor, not a deity.

thats what the OP and so many other posters were trying to say, and actually i learned from them. naturally i guessed Blizzard came up with all this fantasy we know, starting with Diablo. but i was wrong, and now i know Games Workshop and Tolkien invented everything we know. in Warhammer, their fighter-healers were called Warrior-Priests, to say that these people, who were actually the pioneers, are a code name or alias for a concept that infact came AFTER they did, is strange to me.

Hope you got your knickers on mate, its time to get taken to school..........


Are you honestly attempting to say orcs that are green came about because of warhammer? Try again. D+D is older than Warhammer featuring orcs that were gray-green in color. So you are very wrong, and I never once mentioned Tolken.

Same goes for the paladin class. Sorry existed pre warhammer. the warrior priest is just a paladin with a different name.

Blizzard came up with exactly 0% of the fantasy I know. Ive been involved in fantasy for the last *thinks* 15 years constantly. So while i am not older than the Warhammer IP I have played games that are. Which included paladins, and green orcs, and 80% of what you see in games. It was just all done on paper, with stats, and dice.


I really hate to burst your bubble, I love the warrior priest because its EXACTLY like the paladins I played on pen and paper. Warhammer is bringing NOTHING new to the table. They are fixing bugs, taking a great IP that has borrowed much of its humble beginnings from all sorts of older lore and are going to make a fun game.

Warhammer did not invent the wheel despite how much we wish they did, because then the wheel wouldnt be used on cars, it would be used only to crush and kill and maim things.

I repeat, Tolken and Games Workshop did not invent fantasy. Did they hep bring it out into the lime light, yes, did they invent it, no, never, sorry go directly to jail do not collect 200 dollars.

Oh and the first monopoly board was a circle.

[GrandOne]

Oh and the first monopoly board was a circle.

For real? :shock:
And no fantasy writer invented Paladins (Holy Warriors), they were for real

[RockpapperWaagh]

For real? :shock:
And no fantasy writer invented Paladins (Holy Warriors), they were for real

this man is correct.

[sonofsigmar]

Hope you got your knickers on mate, its time to get taken to school..........


Are you honestly attempting to say orcs that are green came about because of warhammer? Try again. D+D is older than Warhammer featuring orcs that were gray-green in color. So you are very wrong, and I never once mentioned Tolken.

Same goes for the paladin class. Sorry existed pre warhammer. the warrior priest is just a paladin with a different name.

Blizzard came up with exactly 0% of the fantasy I know. Ive been involved in fantasy for the last *thinks* 15 years constantly. So while i am not older than the Warhammer IP I have played games that are. Which included paladins, and green orcs, and 80% of what you see in games. It was just all done on paper, with stats, and dice.


I really hate to burst your bubble, I love the warrior priest because its EXACTLY like the paladins I played on pen and paper. Warhammer is bringing NOTHING new to the table. They are fixing bugs, taking a great IP that has borrowed much of its humble beginnings from all sorts of older lore and are going to make a fun game.

Warhammer did not invent the wheel despite how much we wish they did, because then the wheel wouldnt be used on cars, it would be used only to crush and kill and maim things.

I repeat, Tolken and Games Workshop did not invent fantasy. Did they hep bring it out into the lime light, yes, did they invent it, no, never, sorry go directly to jail do not collect 200 dollars.

Oh and the first monopoly board was a circle.

Gygax, maker of DnD, actually borrowed most if not all his creatures from Tolkien's Lord of the Rings and included these races to draw on LoTRs existing popularity. and since Tolkien's Orcs we're not green, but gray to be exact as you can see in movies or books, DnD orcs were of the same color.

i can attest to millions of posts and off-forum sources that can explain very well that the GREEN ORCS of WoW and subsequent games are actually part of the Games Workshop IP. Games Workshop did not invent orcs, that was Tolkien, however, when you think of an orc then paint it green, that was Games Workshop's idea.You can look up DnD and Warhammer on the net for evidence of this, as well as in-forum posts. green orcs are warhammer IP based. Infact i'll spare you:

In the 1980s another orc archetype was introduced by the table-top miniature war games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wargaming) Warhammer Fantasy Battle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_Fantasy_Battle) and Warhammer 40,000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40%2C000); a heavily-muscled, green-skinned barbarian with exaggerated tusks, brow, and lower jaw. This is the first instance of an Orc being green. This style of orc has since become popular in a vast number of fantasy settings and games, including a signature of the Warcraft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warcraft) series of computer games and spin-offs.

i stand corrected on the paladin issue though, they were DnD creations. thanks for the enlightenment, i owe my entire RPG career to DnD i see, though i havent played a single DnD game in my life.

[RockpapperWaagh]

Considering this is about paladins not orcs I am still correct, the WP = Paladin.


Now if you want to say that Warhammer was the first to color their orcs green thats fine, go ahead. However I HIGHLY doubt this since orcs have been written about ever since beowulf (sp) Tehy wer ealso written about alot in the 17th century ect. Now you are saying in hundreds of years no one ever made their orc green? Thats silly. Mind you at the time stuff was being translated and what not orc and ogre were generally the same critter, and if you put them side by side its easy to say they have the same roots.

I am sur ei can find info that warhammer did not do the first green orcs, ,but i dont care about orcs, ,i care about paladins, and the warrior priest is a paladin.

[Volcano Mentality]

Considering this is about paladins not orcs I am still correct, the WP = Paladin.


Now if you want to say that Warhammer was the first to color their orcs green thats fine, go ahead. However I HIGHLY doubt this since orcs have been written about ever since beowulf (sp) Tehy wer ealso written about alot in the 17th century ect. Now you are saying in hundreds of years no one ever made their orc green? Thats silly. Mind you at the time stuff was being translated and what not orc and ogre were generally the same critter, and if you put them side by side its easy to say they have the same roots.

I am sur ei can find info that warhammer did not do the first green orcs, ,but i dont care about orcs, ,i care about paladins, and the warrior priest is a paladin.
You guys really need to tone down your attitudes here. SO WHAT if you're right about who invented orcs or paladins first? Does it REALLY matter all that much? This whole discussion is for those who know of the WoW Paladin, and see that the WP is very close to it; not for you guys who obsess over the ancient history (to some) of fantasy origins.

[Arijharn]

I know you guys aren't asking for this, but just bear with my musings.

I would be slightly pissed if a warrior priest can heal and do as much dps as me, if and only if, healing will play a large factor. To me, that doesn't seem balanced at all. Of course, if Dark Favour works as a self heal as well then I wouldn't mind, and it'd be pure skill vs. pure skill, which can only be a good thing.

Despite the opening cinematic, I think a warrior priest and a chosen going head to head will be rather interesting and the closest to as even a match up in the game, and I enjoyed the cinematic because of it's... cinematic appeal, not because it presents a 'reliable outcome.' Any chosen who does is quite frankly a moron.

As an aside, if healing does play a large factor, then I hope that as a Warrior Priest, you could not defeat me without having to at least heal yourself once during combat.

[sonofsigmar]

your concern is valid and i think WPs will have to heal as they just cant take in damage indefinitely. the problem is skill and gear level. the problem with such a preconception that a WP should not beat you without healing is that if a really really good WP beats you without healing once, thats what leads people to start screaming "OP, OP" "nerf, nerf WPs"

all the same, we should hope balancing is done right by release.

[Remnant]

Part of it is, while healing is often a powerful ability, self healing is invariably overrated, save for perhaps instant heals.

Any heals that have a cast time have to outpace incoming damage to be worth casting, and typically open up the caster to all sorts of nastiness while they are going off.

The problem is, people see "plate + heals" and start screaming "they can't do anything or they'll be overpowered!"

Nothing that simple is overpowered out of hand. Casting interrpution, other forms of crowd control, and the fact that the person healing isn't doing damage while they are healing are all factors that tend to get overlooked. I've played non-healers in games which have greater survivability than armored healers, just because they had good control tools and the armored healers were beaten so heavily by the more ignorant complaining that they wound up getting manhandled.

Its a big part of why I'm steering well clear of any class with a healing spell in WAR, at least until the dust settles and I can get a better look at balance.

Once burned twice sh... well, to be more accurate?

Thrice burned, now shy.

[RockpapperWaagh]

it ahas allready been stated a WP will NOT do as much damange as the pure damage classes. However the Tank is NOT a pure damage class, the tank can build up steam to do alot of damage but they are the linemen they hit pretty hard but for the most part they are a bit slow. The hardest hitters will be the mauraders and choppas. Expect to see chosen dps just slightly higher than WP but not nearly as high as the maurader.

Also with the WP builds, a WP can forgo all healing for pure damage abilities that use up his RF, expect these guys to hit as hard as you, since they really dont heal.

[Zirconium]

I've been playing a Paladin for a long time in Lineage2, and they are most definately not Warrior-Priests, although they may bare some similarity in role.

Warrior-Priests would need to be carrying a long sword and a heavy shield, and be fully plated. I think that just about annihilates the idea they could be refered to as Paladins.


Btw, whoever has been saying WoW invented Paladins. Excuse me, but Lineage has been around a LOT longer than WoW. And Diablo was around a lot earlier than that.

[Petit-Trot]

Warrior Priests are paladins.

[ODDBALL]

Btw, whoever has been saying WoW invented Paladins. Excuse me, but Lineage has been around a LOT longer than WoW. And Diablo was around a lot earlier than that.

Paladins have been part of warcraft lore since warcraft 1 was released in the early 90's, well before lineage and diablo.

But im afriad D&D beats out just about everyone when it comes to inventing paladins.

[Remnant]

Real life inlfuence for paladins:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paladin

"Paladin as a word referring to a champion or warrior of the European Middle Ages is often used to describe Charlemagne's legendary retainers."


In addition to D&D, who used the term back when everyone was playing Pong, the term has been been ressurected from it's less modern meaning several times, including even:

A TV show who's protagonist was named paladin, airing in the 50s:
http://www.hgwt.com/

As well as a howitzer artillery piece:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m109a6.htm

(Howitzer- that's DPS. Suck it blizz. Suck it hard. XP )

[Najarati]

I've been lurking and keeping an eye on this game, but this topic called out loudly enough to me that I set up an account in order to respond.

In my opintion, the World of Warcraft Paladin is an anomaly in terms of what I view as the "true" paladin. Blizzard's implementation felt far too much like a cleric (and not a particularly good one) and not enough like a warrior or fighter. I despised having so much of my damage left to chance in additional to the healer role I was pushed into when it came to raiding. Most of my reference comes from the Dungeons and Dragons' idea of a paladin and therefore the one featured in WoW was one of the worst implementations I've played.

When I envision a paladin I see someone who is an accomplished martial expert (one of the best as far as lore is concerned) who fights for (what he believes to be) a righteous cause. He is both a protector and vindicator, a champion of his deity should he have one, and through such strong conviction has been granted abilities that are divine in nature. He seeks to preserve what is good and destroy what is evil in his (and his deity's) eyes. I've never pictured the paladin as being particularly strong in the ways of healing--support, leadership, and combat, yes, but not healing. I've never really bought into the "arrogant" or "stupid-good alignment" stereotype. I imagine them to be far more grim and determined in nature, inspiring and sociable when the situation calls for it, but fierce and intimidating on the battlefield.

The following are games outside Dungeons and Dragons that I think have done a good job implementing the paladin:

Diablo II -- I really liked the feel of the paladin in this game and it's a shame Blizzard did not bring it to WoW; it was my favorite class. This holy man had very little healing, but was a force to be reckoned with with his excellent blend of melee attacks, spells, and auras. I felt confident and never weak when playing this paladin and fully capable of battling the very legions of Hell.

Vanguard -- Say what you will of the game as a whole, but Sigil--although, not perfect--did a very respectable job implementing the paladin both lore-wise and mechanics-wise. First and foremost, the paladin was a tank. He could absorb damage like a champ and was the best at rescuing his team mates. He could debuff his enemies with Judgments and buff his allies with Blessings; he also had some minor healing abilities. The Vanguard paladin could also deal extreme amounts of damage for a short time if he was willing to spend his Virtue Points for it. Lore-wise, the paladin was a protector, judicator, and punisher.

Everquest 2 -- Although this class was, unfortunately, not raid-tank material back when I played, it was a lot of fun to play up until maximum level (which was 50 at the time.) The paladin had a nice blend of spells and melee attacks and (in my opinion) did a suprising amount of damage for a class that was deemed defensive. He had some healing abilities, but they were nothing major.

The following are games that I felt did a poor job of implementing the paladin class:

World of Warcraft -- Billed as a tank and melee fighter, this class certainly did not end up that way in the end-game. I also found combat with this paladin to be dreadfully boring as it mainly consisted of auto-hitting. The revamped judgments helped a bit, but it wasn't the flavor or playstyle for which I was looking. This class was also mis-named; these were clerics.

Dark Age of Camelot -- Ironically, I did not like the way Mythic went about designing the paladin for this game. The biggest problem was the twisting of chants, I found it to be a pain as well as needlessly taxing on my wrists. I also never felt strong enough as a melee combantant; this was probably due to the whole double-spec'ing deal with two-handed weapons, which I thought was a horrible design-decision.

As for Warhammer, so far I'm torn between playing a Knight of the Blazing Sun and a Warrior Priest. They both sound like fine classes to me.

[sonofsigmar]

well, you want to play the WP as the KoTBS abilities may not be so divine as being ordinary knightly abilities.
the main difference is the WP isnt a knight, but from what i can see he is all the rest. a "holy man" the most steadfast and grim-faced character of the empire. his abilities are almost all melee with divine boosts.
he is the leader of his team (auras of healing and buffs) he is their rallying point, and is tasked with keeping them alive and strong by chanting from his Deus Sigmar.

like paladins of old, he is the worst enemy of the undead (divine + undead = not so good for undead) the worst and most tireless enemy of chaos and any abomination upon the face of the world and their determination and endurance is shown by their willingness to roam the empire preaching Sigmar's name, killing chaos and undead who threaten the people's faith in the empire.

as a support class, he fits what a paladin is meant to be, a rescuer. he can help any class and whats more, he augments everyones capabilities and is a badass all by himself.

i like controlling things from the sidelines and helping my group do better. i guess i like being the last hope and someone everybody can rely on. thats why the WP is for me.

[Cypryss]

Does he wear plate? Does he hold a 2her? Does he fight for a higher power that being a god and can heal with Holy power or Righteous power ? Then it's a Paladin or another cool name for it a Warrior-priest. People compare cause of those factors you just got to accept it. When you think of a Mage you think of a Wizard and same goes with a Assassin and a Rogue. It's just a image and that's what people are relating too it's nothing personal toward WAR, WOW or EQ or any other game that has these hybrid in it. It's what people relate themselves too . No one should take it to heart.

[Arijharn]

Does he wear plate? Does he hold a 2her? Does he fight for a higher power that being a god and can heal with Holy power or Righteous power ? Then it's a Paladin or another cool name for it a Warrior-priest. People compare cause of those factors you just got to except it.

While I totally agree with you that when you break things down, paladins are warrior-priests. That is an absolute horrid argument to make.

Saying you just have to accept something because of the majority also believes it is like saying that humanity never discovered that the Sun was the centre of the solar system and continued to believe that the Earth was because "everyone thought it."

[GhostMessiah]

Saying you just have to accept something because of the majority also believes it is like saying that humanity never discovered that the Sun was the centre of the galaxy and continued to believe that the Earth was because "everyone thought it."

Nice reply.

Anyway, when i think of a pally i like D2's implementation and that seems to be very similar to what Mythics interpretation is going to be. WP is, at the very least, the closest thing to a pally ur gona see in WAR.

[Pugslah]

Warrior-priests are worshippers of the Warrior-god Sigmar.
a Pally is just a pally.


A pally would ask the wrongdoer to surrender, and convert.

A Warrior-Priest would gladly take his Warhammer to the skull of anyone who speaks ill of Sigmar.

[heavyhebrew]

;)Well....if you want to get technical...a Warrior-Priest is a Cleric...
It would be cool to use a sword, ala pally, but it just isn't in the cards.

[Vaelin]

Personally, you call it a Lightly Frosted Sugarplum Fairy and I wouldn't care as long as it's capable of whooping some .

Just like Paul said - "FUN you F***ERS!"

(And for the especially thick-headed pacifists out there, healbotting isn't fun.)

[Eisen Faust]

Warrior Priests and Paladins may seem similar is subtle or big ways but that is just due to the fact that they're in the same ball field. Most MMO's create their own classes or use the same class names like so many others use. Yet they follow archetypes ex: Warrior, Caster, DPS, Range, and Healer. But what time has shown us that game designers like to tweak classes to get variety within the game. So most of the base archetypes are still played but with few or alot of hybrid archetypes. The holy warrior archetype has had many variations over the years with MMO's and RPG's alike. Warrior-Preists are a class different and similar to a paladin. While they both fight for their holy and noble causes they have different styles of combat and support. While one may focus on protecting and the other on combat itself they're still derived from the the Holy Warrior archetype.

[Selendor]

Don't forget Chaos Chosen! They're damage dealers too!

*runs out*

[Cypryss]

When i said you just got to accept it, it is that people have different opinions on what a Warrior-Priest is and it doesn't make them right or wrong cause it's their own opinion and what history and video games has projected as the image of this roll.

If i am hearing you guys correctly what most of you believe is
A cleric is a healer
A paladin is a protector
A Warrior-Priest is an offensive damage dealer that uses both melee and spell damage and can heal ?

Yet one or two for you are summing it up to be a Holy Warrior?

A Valiant Knight, Holy Knight and Warrior monk etc.... is summed up to be one thing,
A Paladin cause a paladin isn't either a just a Cleric or a protector he also go off on the offensive and is the vengeance hand of a god's judgment. In other words all of these titles that would make them a Cherub. The physical action of a god rather then the proclaimers that speak the word of a god. Speaker of the word of a god would be a Priest for example .Then again Cherubs are angels so take it how you like. I use Paladin because of it's well know name but i am starting to also recognize Holy Warriors as also being Warrior-Priests.

Well that's the way i look at it. The Warrior-Priest or w.e title you choose to give it will be one fun class if they don't bash it with a whole bunch of changes.

[Arijharn]

Don't forget Chaos Chosen! They're damage dealers too!

*runs out*

male or female? heh, I'm going to burn for that one!

[Tro]

warrior priest are paladins. most of us from WoW look at them as warcraft paladin. defender of the weak,leader and chapion. WoW paladins are compaired to warrior priest cause to us we feel that they are what we should have been in the first place. aslo knowing WoW rep, we dont want to turn out making another cleric healbot that is advertised as a melee fighter. no lay it cool on the WoW people. we just dont want this to happen again.
btw paladins are holy warriors in WoW. they were once clerics and once warriors and once honored they become paladins

[Jonas]

Quoting because I really can't be bothered to write it all again.

The Warrior Priest is a Healer class. Let me emphasise that: It is the only healer class from the Empire faction. Please think that one through. It has been put into the game with enough healing power to main heal any group. Does this mean that it needs to "heal and heal and heal and heal"? No. Does it mean that Warrior Priest players get to DPS and Heal when in a group? Yes. Does it mean that I will /ignore Warrior Priests who refuse to heal outright. Yes.

I will be blunt. I am seeing a lot of 'Ret Pallies' coming across from WoW who want to "finally be able to play the class they always wanted to play in WoW". I personally think that a lot of you are going to be horribly disappointed. If you rolled a "Ret Pally" in WoW and then got upset because when you got to 60/70 it wasn't a DPS machine, I am sorry, but I am pretty sure that you will not get that from a Warrior Priest either. What you will get from a Warrior Priest is going to be around the lowest DPS in WAR. This doesn't mean that it is "low dps" but it's like.. you can either have HIGH DPS or OMGAREYOUINSANE DPS. Tanks and Healers do not get OMGAREYOUINSANE DPS. You may notice that I plan to roll a KotBS, personally I am okay with this.

BUT. Neither of the classes will be taken into groups for a pure DPS role. Of the Empire classes, that is what the Witch Hunter and Bright Wizard are for. Do not try and force a class which is not suited to the role into the role or you will be disappointed again.

If you want to be pure dps, roll Witch Hunter. Please Please Please, for the sake of my sanity and because I don't want to hear for the next 2-5 years about how no-one wants you to DPS and only wants you to heal. Yes, you will be able to do some dps AND heal with a WP, further, the game mechanics support you doing both in a group environment. For this, I applaud the designers of Warhammer. But, the class is a healing class, you will be wanted for your healing more often than your dps. If you don't want this, avoid it now and find another class you'd rather play.

[jkdfhk]

All WoW paladins now are Priests in a solid metal case. The only use anybody wanted them for .... not really the holy warrior if you ask me.
I played a palidin in WoW and i wont mind trying out the WP in WAR .... but first its a CHOSEN!

[Hatemonger]

All I know, is that my Warrior Priest better be able to one-shot Choppas and Marauders, while casually throwing out a 2000+ heal every now and then.

[Thoden Firehammer]

All I know, is that my Warrior Priest better be able to one-shot Choppas and Marauders, while casually throwing out a 2000+ heal every now and then.


Ohh, and don't forget your Warrior Priest's leet cannon, you know for thoes pesky buggers that try to run away XD

[Uhlic von Roehn]

All I know, is that my Warrior Priest better be able to one-shot Choppas and Marauders, while casually throwing out a 2000+ heal every now and then.
Ya good luck with that.

[Ranti]

Quoting because I really can't be bothered to write it all again.

the one key thing you fail to point out is that they MUST dps in order to heal well, unlike WoW paladins where it is optimal to sit WAY back (farther away than most ranged dps actually at 40 yards instead of 30 or 36 -- albeit some ranged dps could sit at 41 yards)
and heal, buff, heal, buff, and heal. A WP must stay up close to constantly melee, both to gain RF, but also so they will be in range for there auras to affect there party, which range better be closer than WoW paladins 30-40 yard auras. Furthermore, unlike WoW, WAR Is a more focused pvp game. Hybrids suffer in pve because of forced specs and forced sole roles (ONLY HEALING, or ONLY TANKING), but in pvp they can multi-task and be playing optimally.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Ya good luck with that.

You realize he was being sarcastic right?

[kingsword]

There were many half-wit people who didn't even bother to heal themselves and those still play. However I think warrior priests will shine for people who DPS and heal seamlessly, putting the potential of the class to best use. I used to play like that in WoW but its mechanics made gearing/speccing for pure healing and standing back, full time healing a far more profitable choice to the point that there was an insane gap. It's still the same to this day and mind you, WoW paladins are currently the only hybrids who suffer this fate.

So I think that people with some sense (who actually knows that healing is a powerful complementary and is how they 'defend the weak') would be relieved that they can play the game over such a mechanic that staying back isn't more profitable.

[jkdfhk]

Come to think of it KOtBS sound more like what a Paladin is suppose to be like. The enspiring chapmion on the battle field with commanding aruas and what not.
I agree that the WP is more like a Cleric from D&D

[Der_Eisenhans]

Quoting because I really can't be bothered to write it all again.


Translation: "I want to have a healbot! Now STFU and heal me!"

[Jonas]

Translation: "I want to have a healbot! Now STFU and heal me!"

You really need to work on your trolling there.

[Atekimogus]

Come to think of it KOtBS sound more like what a Paladin is suppose to be like. The enspiring chapmion on the battle field with commanding aruas and what not.


Yes, I really am curious how that will work out. Tank/buffer is a combination which didn't work that well with the warcraft-paladin (not that he ever was a tank overall...;))imho.



I personally think that a lot of you are going to be horribly disappointed. If you rolled a "Ret Pally" in WoW and then got upset because when you got to 60/70 it wasn't a DPS machine, I am sorry, but I am pretty sure that you will not get that from a Warrior Priest either.


Jonas, please do not accuse others of trolling while you yourself are throwing around generalisations. Not all Retribution Paladins are/were 3 years old who wanted mega-dps there are quite a few who are just disappointed how a highly effective and fun way to play a class was gradually made obsolete.

For the WP I do not care what dps he gets, as long as he is as effective as the other classes and that could also be achieved via special abilities, cc, debuffs.... (The AoE knockback of the runepriest for example. Knocking down 3 charging black orcs sounds a lot more fun than some imaginary number over their heads...but thats just me;))

[kingsword]

I would guess that KotBS would have more damage than a WP as he cannot heal, no matter the buffs. Healing power itself is potentially more powerful than just wearing plate.

[Montague]

I would guess that KotBS would have more damage than a WP as he cannot heal, no matter the buffs. Healing power itself is potentially more powerful than just wearing plate.

That depends on the damage scale and the mitigation available. Last we heard from Paul was that there were some positional attacks, so likely some burst damage attacks if an enemy is beating on someone else. But then this a WP forum so I'll just shaddap but I thought I'd answer you with what I know :D

[Hiran]

Just a comment on the OP. I find it completely appropriate to compare games of a genre. I compare FPS's to each other, and RTS's to each other, MMO is just another Genre with games to compare.

[Jonas]

Yes, I really am curious how that will work out. Tank/buffer is a combination which didn't work that well with the warcraft-paladin (not that he ever was a tank overall...;))imho.


He had healing as well, which diluted it all. I think the KotBS will work well.


Jonas, please do not accuse others of trolling while you yourself are throwing around generalisations. Not all Retribution Paladins are/were 3 years old who wanted mega-dps there are quite a few who are just disappointed how a highly effective and fun way to play a class was gradually made obsolete.


Um, no?
I back up my position regularly which has consistently been: "Don't roll this class if you only want to dps because you'll be disappointed and then cry and I don't want to hear the crying." Which is different from "Hahah QQ more noob, stfu and heal me". Anyone who suggests that I am saying such is either a) not terribly bright or b) trying to get a response out of me; I'm being generous in suggesting that he is a troll. Pretty much every single one of my posts has suggested that I approve of all the support classes healing AND dpsing.

[Warning, WoW anecdote]
I can sympathise to a degree with a lot of the ret paladins from wow, because I rolled a paladin myself initially to be a warrior with some heals (for myself). However, the more I played, the more I started to appreciate group play more and the more I realised that the character wasn't what I wanted - so I rerolled warrior and was happy ever after. Then, when I ran into ret paladins throughout the game, I often asked them "is that your first character?" and commonly it was. That's why I believe that Ret Paladin players are more interested in playing their idea of what they want the character to be than what the character is.
[ / WoW anecdote]

Anyway, thanks for doing the troll's job for him and getting me to arc up, I'm sure he appreciates it.

[Atekimogus]

"Don't roll this class if you only want to dps because you'll be disappointed and then cry and I don't want to hear the crying."


I get that, I just have not read a thing here about people who want to play a warrior priest actually SAYING that they want only to do DPS, that they do NOT want to heal ANYBODY and thats where you are a bit confused imho.

All they are saying is: "Yes I want to heal and support my group but I do NOT want any disadvantages others have NOT only because I love playing the care-bear. I want to be as competitive as all the other classes regardless of single/multi-pvp/pve and want to have the SAME rewarding game experience. And if this can only be achieved via dps, yes than a competitive amount of dps should be included."

Is that to much to aks I wonder?

[Jonas]

I get that, I just have not read a thing here about people who want to play a warrior priest actually SAYING that they want only to do DPS, that they do NOT want to heal ANYBODY and thats where you are a bit confused imho.


Not in the least.

eg:

No, I don't expect to do quite as much damage as a pure DPS class, but I do hope that properly spec'ed as combat oriented, and using my RF for attacks and minimal heals, I can get pretty damned close.

I could find others where people talk about only using their RF for attacks and not for heals, but right now I'm not interested in doing so. These are the same arguments I heard time and again from ret paladins who were unhappy with their class in WoW; yet, the kept on playing the class.

The only *real* way that hybrid classes can effectively raise their dps to dps class levels is if they can spec entirely out of healing. As long as they have baseline healing skills, they are strong. From what I understand of the classes in WAR, no healer is going to be able to 'spec out of healing' in the manner that I suggest; they may be able to increase their dps through tactics, which will afford more fun solo play but the primary class role in a group is healing and support - as far as I understand it.

I disagree strongly with your assertion that healing was weak in WoW. The simplest way to win any pvp encounter is to receive heals and to protect the healers; HPS far out paces DPS (possibly not in the high end arena, but given that the 'cookie cutter' team has 3 classes with healing capacity in it - Warrior/DPS/Shaman/Priest/Paladin fyi. - I expect that it is still important there ). But this is not WoW. It is obvious that people have had bad experiences with WoW, which stems from 2 things.

1. Non interactive and 'boring' gameplay for healers. I've played my friend's holy priest enough to realise this.
2. People who are too stubborn to change their class - for whatever reason, that they don't want to level up again, don't want to stop raiding, guild needs them, whatever. Alot of people find that a class doesn't suit them and want the game to change, rather than themselves.

From what I have seen of the recent videos, WAR has done alot to make healer game play fun and interesting, either from an interactive CC standpoint (running around and debuffing/rooting/knockbacking enemies) or from a dps viewpoint (more, viable nukes available). Importantly, if you watch their class presentation from the community information day, you can get an idea of what role they currently perceive healers as having.
The second, I am trying to help prevent. I am emphasising that the W-P belongs to the same meta class as all the Healer/Support classes, and as such will be just as good a healer as any of them. There's obviously going to be people who will roll W-Ps, find it not what they wanted and complain; but at least I will have tried.

Anyway, it's all speculation at the moment, we really have to wait for a W-P pvp vid. (Although, I'd much prefer a KotBS one personally :D )

[Crow]

My Dad owned the first D&D game that came out, and when I was very little, he explained to me how it worked, being a graphic artist and lover of all the lore and Art that goes along with it, I have had this solid base of what different classes are suppose to have as abilities, and their characteristics.
Diablo II was much closer with their Paladin than WOW, so I can only think that, the guys that use to be with Blizzard, that are now working on "Hells Gate", took with them their knowledge of Paladins. People would get so mad at me in WOW when I would compare WOW Paladins to D&D Paladins.
Lets face it though, all these games base their characters off of D&D. How long has D&D been around? Why is it a continued success in the gaming world? Why? Because they started with a solid base, if it wasn't working it would have been changed years ago.
The Paladin is a Holy Knight, always Lawful good. The Cleric is a Priest Fighter, much different.
In the End, I believe watching all the videos and write ups about WarHammer Online, I think these guys are going to stick with a more traditional image of what classes were originally ment to be like, and I like that. These guys get it.
I however, will not be on the good side when WAR begins.
All Shall Be Slain by the Hand of Chaos!

[Atekimogus]

Originally Posted by von Zuse http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/images/WHA/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?p=420167#post420167)
No, I don't expect to do quite as much damage as a pure DPS class, but I do hope that properly spec'ed as combat oriented, and using my RF for attacks and minimal heals, I can get pretty damned close.



I could find others where people talk about only using their RF for attacks and not for heals, but right now I'm not interested in doing so. These are the same arguments I heard time and again from ret paladins who were unhappy with their class in WoW; yet, the kept on playing the class.


Jonas the above quote could be interpreted in two ways. Sure you can say that op obviously plans on spend all his rightous fury only for attacks, never for heals and is under the strange assumption that he will compare to dps classes.

All that I read from the quote is that he wants a certain flexibility, something that IS in the class description of the warrior-priest. (There are abilities which increase the damage and decrease healing by 5% afaik). I mean he wants to come "pretty damn close" to dps classes. Thats obviously 99,99% for you but could also be 70% for example, it depends on your point of view.

Also if you need to spend ALL your RF to come "pretty damn close" I say really really good job mythic because than he isn't able to heal effectivly anymore and thats balance AND flexibility right there. (and makes a fearsome and unpredictable opponent)

If I am filled with rightous fury up to my hearless skull and my group is at full health I want to contribute something meaningfull, spending it for token attacks with no impact would be just a waste of RF. Standing in the back and waiting until my RF is needed for heals is not something that is in the class description.

[Tro]

paladin
1.any knightly or heroic champion. 2.any determined advocate or defender of a noble cause.

warrior priest
A Warrior Priest of Sigmar is a fearsome master of battle and tireless defender of the faith. These holy warriors are the hammer of the church, serving in both defense of the Empire and the furtherance of the church’s goals. A deadly melee fighter, the Warrior Priest relies on the blessings of his god to protect him in combat

[Parn]

I personally agree with those that said that the WP is a Cleric instead of a Paladin... The Paladin and the Cleric are similar in the D&D World but also really different:

The Paladin is a warrior... In fact both the Fighter and the Paladin classes are labelled as "Warriors". Why? Cause both are first line fighters... The difference is that the Fighter's offensive or defensive power comes from his study of war... While the Paladin's come both from the study of war and from divine sources (of course less martial maneuvers to balance the divine ones)... Some could say the pally is a bit more defensive than the Fighter, cause of the bonus to save throws etc etc... But actually if used in the same way they could provide the same amount of around of damage, or around the same... Cause the pally had offensive powers and offensive feats too (maybe from divine sources tho). So both classes could be either defensive or offensive with around the same result...

The Cleric is a healer/buffer with some melee abilities... Both him and the Pally are defenders of the faith and of their divinity... And the Cleric, if Lawful Good, etc, is a defender of the weaks... Except that the pally has few weak heals, no buffs except for like remove diseases, and is a warrior while as I said the Cleric is a healer with some melee abilities that fits exactly the description of the Warrior Priest... I'm not sure that if WAR had been made prior to WOW, so many would have associated the WP to the Paladin... Probably many do it because of the Holy tree in WOW...

In other games, stories, etc etc (An example is Diablo 2), or in the Warcraft world itself prior to WOW, the pally had always (or almost always) been a warrior... In fact the beta paladin was like the best DPSer around (maybe a bit overpowered I'm not sure, but that was his role)... It was when the real makes of WOW left that Mr. K. transformed it into a buff/heal bot and stole some of his abilities and gave them to his warrior (a warrior with 3 immunities to fear and the pally none... yeah right)...

In the end, yes the WP can be associated with the Paladin and that wouldn't be wrong, but I think the WP resembles more a Cleric, but that's just many opinion, of course...

[Jarrran]

People like paladins and since there are not any they will roll warrior priests and pretend to be. In many ways they are paladins by gaming standards.

Plate armor- check
healing- check
melee- check
buffs- check

Close enough for me, and with the popularity of paladins people will roll priest warriors and pretend to be paladins. Get used to it.

sounds like a paladin to me also....now when i say paladin...i dont mean wow pally. just paladins you see in old book about heroes doing great deeds

[Zacharius]

Er...


http://www.freewebs.com/cortlesteeze/pix/ThreadNecro.jpg

Its bad!

[Kohak]

Only if the paladins they pretend to play are the those insane members of the scarlet crusade. That's a bit closer to this. I've said this before but.

Paladin = Holy Knight - Shiny Plate Armor, Gleaming Valiant Swords, a Knightly way. That is the typical image of a Paladin, although there are variants that are closer to what the warrior priest is, which is:

Warrior-Priest = Holy Berserker, Battle ready clergy robes/armor, Big- warhammer, faith with no boundry and no mercy for heretics, really zealous warriors.

I see how some of you can confuse those too, but let me assure you, Warrior-Priest is not your Knight in Shining Armor, that's the KotBS although even they are not quite that either, I believe the Reiksgard are that.

Hey you never know, maybe they'll release Bretonnia as a playable race in an expansion with it's Grail Knights and what not, Im sure you can find your paladins among them.

Edit: Oh I've just noticed, look at my sig. Then go watch an episode of hellsing, episode 3 of the TV series or episode 1 of the OVA, and look at Father Alexander Anderson, that is the image of a warrior-priest, just replace his blades with a hammer.

[Mapex]

Combat style wise, Paladins and WP are the same; they both aggressively and zealously attack and maim their foes. But Warhammer being the twisted, grimy universe it is has a very radical version of the Paladin.

A Paladin ideally does good and protects the innocent and weak and all that jazz, but they still zealously slay their enemies, especially undead, in the name of their God. However, if a situation of redemption or salvation arises, or an act of mercy can be done, the Paladin will chose to do this instead of land a killing blow on his enemy.

A WP isn't as focused on the protection part, although he believes he is protecting his Empire from daemonic and undead corruption and plague, and will relentlessly combat his foes without any question and any remorse.

Like Kohak and many others have said in this reanimated, undying thread, a Paladin is more your goodie two shoes knight in shining armor, but if the situation asks he will slay his enemies with divine fury, whereas a WP kills first and asks questions later, caring little about what is good or bad but instead making sure that demonic filth cannot infest the people who also believe in Sigmar.

[MHDShogun]

Many other games have had paladins, the paladin archetype has been around a lot longer then WoW. WPs do fit a paladin archetype: melee guy that casts holy magic and buffs his allies, and most likely wears heavier armor.

This explanation = Win, the shortest explanation for this best because the Paladin class is in so many different games, and in every single one, it is a class that can fight in melee and (unless it isn't a fantasy game) has divine powers, usually including healing. Therefore, the Warrior Priest is very comparable to Paladins and falls within the "Paladin Archetype".

Edit: Also, even though in D&D the cleric is more like the WP, since clerics can fight very well in melee as well, in many other games, Clerics tend to be much more like WOW priests, sometimes being not offensive at all, or being offensive with spells rather than melee.

[Parn]

The reasons you people explained are right... But for me, and in most (if not all) of the games I played, the paladin is not a healer... The Warrior Priest is mainly a healer with some melee skills... So yes maybe RP wise they are similar (but not the same) to a Paladin... But gameplay-wise they are very different if the WP's focus is really mainly on heals as it seems... The Paladin has never been a healer, only in WOW he was made such...

In D&D as I said he is a Warrior with some divine spells (and pratically no heals, cause he has a few useless heals, too weak to use in combat, except of course for lay on hands once per day).
In D2 he is a powerful warrior too... With some heals... But nonetheless his main focus is on fighting...
In Ragnarok Online he is warrior... With 1 strong heal (if specced right)... But a strong warrior, really hard to kill...
In Ultima Online he is a warrior with divine spells...

And so on...

As I said I can understand that some of you think of the WP as a Paladin, in fact he is probably the most paladin-like char in Warhammer (tho the KOTBS is similar to a Paladin too in some of his gameplay aspects but he is very different himself in terms of RP)...

My worry tho is that seeing as how WOW turned paladins into healers, and it is a really successful game, many more games will follow Blizzard's way and turn paladins into healers and supporters... PS: With this I'm surely not referring to Warhammer, I'm talking in general, cause the WP class existed in the WAR universe way before WOW was even created...

PS: But as I said I can understand you comparing the WP to the Paladin even tho they are, for me, quite different... Cause the WP (and partially the KOTBS) is the class resembling the Paladin the most... In fact I could end up playing a WP myself, cause I'm really curious to see how they implemented the heals while melee fighting, etc... xD

[Archangelus]

WoW stinks bad. I play a Holy Paladin there. I have fun only when all my friends are online and we go raiding, but the rest of the time, both PvP and PvE, it's just a dull, boring, stupid, noobish game.

The only thing is that, as I wrote in another post, all WoW players (especially paladins) are suffering from anxiety because of what they had to bear playing that foul game. Sorry, but we cannot help worrying about WAR being like WoW until the game is released and all our fears wiped away. I hope you can be patient with us.

Moreover, I have been playing Warhammer Fantasy Battle (and 40k too) since 1989. If this game is not excellent I will be deeply disappointed.

[danix]

The Game That Shall Not Be Named kind of ruined the image of the 'paladin' in the minds of a lot of MMO players. The devs for TGTSNBN really screwed the pooch on an otherwise popular class archetype.

I have faith that Mythic will finally put the holy warrior class where it belongs. In the front, smashing the life from heretics with the Hammer of Righteousness.


this ^^

also, i think paladins in fantasy games should be yes holy knights/warriors, and i do understand Warrior Priest won't be like in wow, but remember people, we aren't just priests, we will be WARRIOR priest.

remember WARRIOR priest.

[Kaeldor]

This explanation = Win, the shortest explanation for this best because the Paladin class is in so many different games, and in every single one, it is a class that can fight in melee and (unless it isn't a fantasy game) has divine powers, usually including healing. Therefore, the Warrior Priest is very comparable to Paladins and falls within the "Paladin Archetype".

Edit: Also, even though in D&D the cleric is more like the WP, since clerics can fight very well in melee as well, in many other games, Clerics tend to be much more like WOW priests, sometimes being not offensive at all, or being offensive with spells rather than melee.

I'd think of them more of a cleric actually. Paladins are a knightly order, WPs are not. They are also not in full plate armor, which your Paladins usually are. The traditional weapon of a Paladin is a sword.

I really think they are very similar to D&D cleric, because they are basically priests, not knights.

[Kohak]

I agree. We are priests first, warriors second, knights never.

[Dagoth]

Edit: Oh I've just noticed, look at my sig. Then go watch an episode of hellsing, episode 3 of the TV series or episode 1 of the OVA, and look at Father Alexander Anderson, that is the image of a warrior-priest, just replace his blades with a hammer.

This is curious, you say first that paladins must not be confused with warrior-priest, then you say that Anderson is an example of a Warrior-Priest. But you know that he is actually called "Paladin Alexander Anderson" right?

Not to say you are wrong, just found it funny.

[Kohak]

This is curious, you say first that paladins must not be confused with warrior-priest, then you say that Anderson is an example of a Warrior-Priest. But you know that he is actually called "Paladin Alexander Anderson" right?

Not to say you are wrong, just found it funny.

Well in his case it is just a title. I actually think he is the only one with that title in the Hellsing universe. He is in fact a Priest.

What I was trying to express though, is that the Warrior-Priest, fit's the gameplay style of a holy warrior, as CAN a Paladin.

What I wanted to differentiate was that, Your typical RPG Paladins, WoW, DAoC, FFXI, EQ, Vanguard, basically whatever MMORPG you can think of. Those devout Knights in Shining Armor, that fight to protect people from evil in the name of their deity, they are not what the WP is.

If you look at Anderson, he does not slay evil to protect the people, he approaches evil with and EXTREME prejudice and kills it because he deems it to be something that opposes god. That is the feeling I get from a Warrior-Priest.

[Aughiris]

Really, there are more than one description for a 'paladin.' There isn't one type of paladin. You have the badass warrior-with-twohanded-sword type of zealot, you have the devout cleric/priest-like two-handed-hammer-wielding devotee, you have the righteous knightly avater of all that is good, etc.

So yes, for some the Warrior-Priest may be a 'paladin,' yet for others it may seem more as a cleric or a priest. It's a matter of interpretation.

[haryana]

I can guarantee that the chance of that happening will decrease if you stop comparing the warriorpriests to paladins or that horrible game that spawned them.

Are you on the dev team?

[Deathgrind]

You guys are splitting hairs by saying they aren't of the paladin archetype. And I don't mean any specefic paladin (WoW or D&D), I mean the general fantasy template. Every IP has it's own paladin flavor, and so does the Warrior Priest.

[danix]

I agree. We are priests first, warriors second, knights never.

Warrior priest.. :-P warrior comes first xD

but don't blame us all, most of us like to be holy warriors, do not say we're clerigs ^^

WoW fail =/ you don't get the feel of warcraft. after all there's no war.. bgs are places to farm honor.. ops i'll stop here, but remember.

warrior priest are our hope remember it ;)

[Parn]

Really, there are more than one description for a 'paladin.' There isn't one type of paladin. You have the badass warrior-with-twohanded-sword type of zealot, you have the devout cleric/priest-like two-handed-hammer-wielding devotee, you have the righteous knightly avater of all that is good, etc.

So yes, for some the Warrior-Priest may be a 'paladin,' yet for others it may seem more as a cleric or a priest. It's a matter of interpretation.
I can agree with what you say... But prior to WOW I had NEVER seen a Paladin associated to a Priest or a Cleric... xD Almost always to a Warrior or Knight or Crusader or Templar, etc... But never a priest or cleric... xD And personally I disliked the image of the Paladin as a Priest or Cleric in WOW... =P I personally considered it an abomination of every other image of the Pally I had ever seen or loved, even in the warcraft universe itself for example... Not because I dislike the Cleric or the Priest but those are the Cleric and the Priest, the paladin has always been very different... ^^ Just my opinion of course. ^^

But the Paladin has always fit an image, just like the warrior has, and that is that of a knight in a shining armor fighting evil with some divine powers... Of course some, like Blizz, can change that image (even going against its own lore), but that's not a Paladin for me. XD They should have renamed it to Cleric. XD

[Under_World]

Forgive me for saying this, because I know there's no way I can make you believe me, but you are all setting yourselves up to be disappointed.

If you want an up front melee fighter, that wears heavy armor and cracks heads with a big weapon... they have classes that do that. They're categorized as MDPS and Tanks.

Don't roll a Healer thinking you're getting to get a MDPS or Tank class. You are going to get Healer.

I'm kicking a dead horse here but I can't help myself. This is a drama that plays out in every MMO I've been in ~ there are people to this day rolling WoW Paladins thinking they're going to go Ret and be Warriors with Healing. I'm sure two years after WAR's release WP boards will be filled with huge dramatic posts about how Wrath needs to be buffed and verbally lynching the DEVs for this tricking them into rolling one.

/wrists

[Parn]

I'm kicking a dead horse here but I can't help myself. This is a drama that plays out in every MMO I've been in ~ there are people to this day rolling WoW Paladins thinking they're going to go Ret and be Warriors with Healing. I'm sure two years after WAR's release WP boards will be filled with huge dramatic posts about how Wrath needs to be buffed and verbally lynching the DEVs for this tricking them into rolling one.
Don't compare WOW to Warhammer please... The part where you say that it could happen that the Warrior Priests are meant to be healers and not competitive melee fighters I can agree... But about WOW, that's another matter... The Beta WOW Paladins were indeed melee warriors with some healing skills... It's when the original WOW creators left, that a group of new developpers (some say they were pally-haters I don't really know about this, tho the balance dev plays with a warrior and in fact it's a strong class), changed it from a melee fighter to a heal/buff bot... So! If you tell me warrior priests are meant to be primarily healers I agree and some could be disappointed, I said so myself, but don't even compare them to that horrible thing known as WOW Paladins... Paladins are meant to be melee fighters with a few heals and divine powers... And in fact they were that during WOW's Alpha and Beta... It's when the Dev Team changed that they destroyed an otherwise good class, turning it into a weak priest in plate... So yes people playing Wow's paladin will be disappointed in the fact that they won't play a competitive melee fighter with some heals/divine powers, but not because, the paladin is not meant to be that (because that's what they are, and have always been in every other game I played, where the devs weren't biased and/or clueless), but because the devs either don't want to fix the class or don't know how to... Seems like they didn't want to so far tho, since they take the suggestions made by paladins and give them to other classes, or skills that are meant to be of the Pally and give them to others...

This said, I'm pretty sure the Warrior Priest can't anyway be as bad as the Paladin melee-wise... I don't consider the WP a paladin as I said many times, but I like the concept and I hope whoever plays it enjoys it...

[Fognar]

Since a few posters in this thread have been referring to the 'original' meaning of the word 'paladin' (and getting it wrong), I thought I would interject:

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, which is, as you probably know, the authority on this issue, the word 'paladin' first came into the English language from French in the 16th century. It essentially meant '[someone] belonging to a palace' (OED s.v. paladin).

In time, the word 'paladin' came to be used in modern Charlemagne romances to refer to 'One of the Twelve Peers or famous warriors of Charlemagne's court', specifically Count Palatine (OED s.v. paladin).

Thereafter, the word came to mean 'knightly hero, renowned champion, knight errant' (OED s.v. paladin).

You will notice that nowhere in the early history of the word is there any indication that the paladin was a priest, that the paladin was a crusader, or that the paladin was a healer. Those definitions of a paladin come from modern writers (including those who work for gaming companies) who have defined the paladin in ways that best suited their artistic needs.

In modern games, the heavily armored warrior who can also buff and heal is a popular archetype. Individual game designers, whether they are working on a pen-and-paper RPG or an MMO, take that well-known archetype, tweak it to suit their needs, and apply a label to it. In Warhammer lore, the tweaked version of that archetype is called a 'Warrior Priest'.

But 'a rose by any other name...' Well, you get the idea.

[Parn]

What you said is completely right! ^^ I think everyone knows already that the original meaning of the Paladin concept didn't involve any divine power or such, etc etc...

In fact I always referred (and I mentioned more than once that I was referring to that) to what a Paladin has always been considered in RPGs up to now, not to the original meaning of the word, else the Pally wouldn't have spells. In fact I always mentioned the Paladin as a Warrior... and in RPGs up to now with divine powers too... I was simply comparing the RPGs' archetipe of the Paladin (and partly the original concept) to what Blizzard made... A melee warrior with divine powers... VS a weak priest in plate. What's closer to the RPGs' archetipe seen up to now? And what's closer to the original concept? xD Surely the "melee warrior with divine powers"! XD

[Khomeini]

I'm not gonna go back and read 11 pages, I just thought I'd put this out there though: Atleast in terms of Dungeons and Dragons Warrior-Priests are Clerics, not paladins. Clerics are wall-armored, hammer wielding holy men who channel their god to heal and fight.

Paladins have full plate, clerics and Warrior-Priests do not. Paladins are knight figures, clerics and Warrior-Priests are not, etc. etc.

[Stigus]

I'm not gonna go back and read 11 pages, I just thought I'd put this out there though: Atleast in terms of Dungeons and Dragons Warrior-Priests are Clerics, not paladins. Clerics are wall-armored, hammer wielding holy men who channel their god to heal and fight.

Paladins have full plate, clerics and Warrior-Priests do not. Paladins are knight figures, clerics and Warrior-Priests are not, etc. etc.


Blizzard totally screwed up the Paladin class in WoW anyway, so TBH anyone whose only exposure to the Paladin class was WoW is going to have a totally skewed and distorted perception of it.

[Tal]

Blizzard totally screwed up the Paladin class in WoW anyway, so TBH anyone whose only exposure to the Paladin class was WoW is going to have a totally skewed and distorted perception of it.

Yes they did. Its even worse when you consider that Warcraft 3 paladins where more like watered down D&D paladin's in many ways then they ever where clerics.

This tread was dead and should have stayed that way. Warrior priests are not paladins nor are they cleric's. They are Warrior priests it doesn't matter how similar they are to those other things in WAR those things either don't exist or are very different from the standard archetype.

Although messing with archetypes could be fun Final Fantasy Online for example. In that game paladins where awesome tanks with a little white magic for cures. It was a fun class to be. However changing your subjob from warrior which you needed for tanking to ninja a class which was a paladin's rival tank class made for some interesting game play. You get a character that is hard to kill dual wields knightswords wears dps gear and uses a fair amount of offensive, defensive and curative magics and ninjutsu it was tons of fun. its practicality however is well open for debate.:mrgreen:

[Asrael]

The Game That Shall Not Be Named kind of ruined the image of the 'paladin' in the minds of a lot of MMO players. The devs for TGTSNBN really screwed the pooch on an otherwise popular class archetype.

I have faith that Mythic will finally put the holy warrior class where it belongs. In the front, smashing the life from heretics with the Hammer of Righteousness.

I agree completely. This is why I have a 1 year and going boycott on the company that produced TGTSNBN. Ill never buy another title the produce! lol Which is unfortunate because I really did like Starcraft. Anyways, Mythic seems to be an awesome job so far, and im really looking forward to my WP :)

[SorrowingDarkened]

Umm.. ok.. plz explain to me why we should not compare war with wow.. since wow is the biggest mmo out there atm, why shouldn't we want to compare and contrast them? :-?


Also... the developers even do it themselves in videos, even if its just for a moment of a few seconds.. so dont tell me to not compare the biggest mmo ever made with one that i'm hoping will be better...

Paladins are the closest thing u can compare the wp to when talking about wow. People want to know how they are different/similar and comparing them doesn't hurt anything... They both have differences and similarities and theres nothing wrong with discussing that. .. :-|

Your anger towards WoW is giving you poor judgment... this is a silly topic..

Comparing something to what the majority of the population considers to be the best is a vital way of improving upon it...

[Servitude]

Umm.. ok.. plz explain to me why we should not compare war with wow.. since wow is the biggest mmo out there atm, why shouldn't we want to compare and contrast them? :-?


Also... the developers even do it themselves in videos, even if its just for a moment of a few seconds.. so dont tell me to not compare the biggest mmo ever made with one that i'm hoping will be better...

Paladins are the closest thing u can compare the wp to when talking about wow. People want to know how they are different/similar and comparing them doesn't hurt anything... They both have differences and similarities and theres nothing wrong with discussing that. .. :-|

Your anger towards WoW is giving you poor judgment... this is a silly topic..

Comparing something to what the majority of the population considers to be the best is a vital way of improving upon it...


This man speaks truth.

Seriously, WoW is the only thing to compare WAR to. WoW is a juggernaut; over 10 million active subscribers. I don't care whether you like the game or hate it, or are in that werid nitch where you hate it because it's popular, you have to recognize the fact that WoW was a groundbreaking threshold in the MMO genre.

Secondly, since most people have never played dnd, the WoW paladin is, unfortunately, the biggest thing people know of. Would I call the WAR Warrior Priests paladins? By their true definition, then yes. Are they 'healadins' or 'tankadins' like WoW? Absolutely not!