Wow! legitimate reason for DE to be DE?

[Faustus]

Looked up dark elves on wikipedia (not the most trustworthy source i know) and found that the dark elves split form the high elves because of a political disagreement. I know realism should have nothing to do w/ my appreciation of WAR, but kuddos to GW for giving the Dark elves a realistic reason for being 'Dark'

[Krulltak]

Yow.


If you wish to learn more about Warhammer lore, follow my links.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/frontpage.aspx

http://blacklibrary.com/default.asp

This is not your goody-goody High Fantasy setting like DnD or WoW, this is a mature, dark, and sinister "Low Fantasy" setting, with no clear cut between good and evil.

[Bloodboil]

isn't that just a name?

are they really different from high elves on a genetic level?

[Krulltak]

isn't that just a name?

are they really different from high elves on a genetic level?


They are both the exact same species, no genetic differences except that I have noticed Dark Elves tend to have more raven hair then the blonde High Elves.

[Bloodboil]

They are both the exact same species, no genetic differences except that I have noticed Dark Elves tend to have more raven hair then the blonde High Elves.

yea thats what i thought
the dark prob just refers to them being viewed as more evil then the high elves....depending on your viewpoint

[Krulltak]

yea thats what i thought
the dark prob just refers to them being viewed as more evil then the high elves....depending on your viewpoint


They also wear more black.

There is no clear cut good and evil in Warhamer, just as in real life.

Dark Elves are more militarisitc, as well as murderous, and many are being taken over by the Chaos God of love, lust, endlugance, dedecance and art Slaanesh, the the secret Cult of Slaanesh of Morathi the Hag Queen.

Wood Elves are just outcasts of the Asur that decided to stay in thier new colony of Athel Loren and worship the woodland spirits that lived there. They are incredibly paranoid and often slaughter any intruders coming into thier territory, even the innocent.

[Kai-Tehemundi]

They are both the exact same species, no genetic differences except that I have noticed Dark Elves tend to have more raven hair then the blonde High Elves.

They have been separated for centuries, and they have some genetic differences, but are still the same race. The main differences (ie the hair) is because Dark Elves were high elves that lived in the north of Ulthuan, mainly Nagarythe and Chrace where most everyone has black hair.

[Draugh]

Elves are a bunch of fairies, even if they are murderous fairies.

[Gorge]

Elves are a bunch of fairies, even if they are murderous fairies.

Your views are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

[sirmatt24]

The more I study Dark Elves, the more I realize they just need a hug...

...okay, maybe it's me that needs the hug.

[morskittar]

The fun part is when you get into the fact that they aren't necessarily "incorrect" from a moral standpoint (at least, weren't when the split happened). Malekith is the actual heir to Ulthuan... the Asur just changed the rules on him, because he failed some ritual test (that may or may not have actually been legitimate).

[Krulltak]

The fun part is when you get into the fact that they aren't necessarily "incorrect" from a moral standpoint (at least, weren't when the split happened). Malekith is the actual heir to Ulthuan... the Asur just changed the rules on him, because he failed some ritual test (that may or may not have actually been legitimate).


Pretty much. They rigged the Elven test to kingship so he would not gain his rightful crown, because Maliketh was just too much of a militaristic madman to have on the throne just to rupture the times of peace the Elves were enjoying back then.

[morskittar]

Pretty much. They rigged the Elven test to kingship so he would not gain his rightful crown, because Maliketh was just too much of a militaristic madman to have on the throne just to rupture the times of peace the Elves were enjoying back then.

I actually have an alternate theory that the skaven will create a warpstone-powered time machine in the future, then go back in time to before their birth, rig the test to cause a rift in the elven race, and weaken them to a point where they can't aid the Empire and Dwarfs when the Great Ascension comes.

Really.

My warpstone hat tells me it is true.

[Krulltak]

Your warpstone hat makes you delusional, rat grot.

[Psycojester]

Krultak: saying obvious that didn't need to be said since Dec 2006

[Zombies_R_Us]

I actually have an alternate theory that the skaven will create a warpstone-powered time machine in the future, then go back in time to before their birth, rig the test to cause a rift in the elven race, and weaken them to a point where they can't aid the Empire and Dwarfs when the Great Ascension comes.

Really.

My warpstone hat tells me it is true.

lol i could actually see that happening.

[morskittar]

Your warpstone hat makes you delusional, rat grot.

Obvioiusly delusional with power, that is.

Back on subject, Dark Elves are really one of the parts of Warhammer that just gets better with age; less OMG EVIL plus Melniboneans and a bit more of their own distinct thing.

[Zombies_R_Us]

pretty much ALL of warhammer is getting better with age.

i just wish they didnt get rid of the chaos dwarves :(

[mongoose]

Elves are a bunch of fairies, even if they are murderous fairies.

Very BOLD talk there Tex. I dare you to say that to the face of a Witch Elf. ;)

If you survive that encounter THEN we will talk. :cool:

[Medivek]

High Elf...Dark Elf...they all bleed when they're missing their knees. Usually the same color too.

The War of Vengeance does not lay unforgotten. My axe proves that.

[Hyper one]

The fun part is when you get into the fact that they aren't necessarily "incorrect" from a moral standpoint (at least, weren't when the split happened). Malekith is the actual heir to Ulthuan... the Asur just changed the rules on him, because he failed some ritual test (that may or may not have actually been legitimate).

or inversely the gods spoke and knew the path that malakith would take the asur down. it all depends on who you read I think.

[Immortalis]

Krultak: saying obvious that didn't need to be said since Dec 2006

Can someone get a RL pic of Krulltak and make an image macro of that?

[Firann]

Afaik in all fantasy universes all elves come from a common civilization but due to ideology and beliefs at some point in their history they split up and form their own new civilizations.

Dark and High elves are the prime example in almost ALL fantasies. All of them have these 2 "races". They both start of as high elves and in the end the dark elves split up because either they were thrown out as outcasts or they left on their own after years of civil war.

Warcraft follows this example as well. They all started as night elves, but high elves (the upper class of the elves) wanted to use arcane magic instead of nature power and were thus outcasted. These high elves later on renamed themselves Blood elves after their capital and kinship was murdered.

Warhammer. All started as a single civilization. Don't know exactly what happened as i never followed elf lore but from what i gather Malekith was supposed to be the new king but was denied his right and thus split up the elf civilization.

Everquest. They all started as high elves. At some point (similar to warhammer) they split up due to ideology i.e once favored use of dark arts while the other didn't, and thus they split up and changed skin color because they lived underground.

Well anyway enough of my bubbleing. As most said its not really good vs evil. Even chaos is not really evil if oyu think about it. For them its the correct thing to do and nothing is really black or white. Its all in the grey area. What one thinks evil, another thinks good. That is what makes Warhammer's lore and universe so intruiging.

[Bork]

Can someone get a RL pic of Krulltak and make an image macro of that?

you mean like this (http://img11.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=03605_Krulltak_122_540lo.jpg)?

[Arijharn]

The War of Vengeance does not lay unforgotten. My axe proves that.

No it doesn't, all it proves is that you have an axe :P

I think the right of succession from malekith isn't any mass conspiracy plot by the Skaven, but what has been mentioned already, some elves just liked peace and reading too much. Besides, Malekith didn't really need to kill anyone surely, the title was his by birthright.

Makes me think of the monster of gladus for some reason, where the Earls were allegedly told by their fathers at their 21st birthday that they weren't actually the real heirs.

[peo]

No clear cut between good and evil???
I guess that depends on what you consider being good and evil.

If you want to see no clear cut between good and evil it's wow you should look at.
In warhammer otoh there is imo a very clear cut between good and evil.

[froo]

In warhammer otoh there is imo a very clear cut between good and evil.

Except of course when you have massive wars between various "good" races.

War of the Beard anyone?

[Steel*Faith]

They also wear more black.

There is no clear cut good and evil in Warhamer, just as in real life.

This is a matter of opinion. Some people think good and evil in Warhammer is a matter of perception, but I don't believe that is a lore based view. The "Good" races have flaws and some corrupt ways about them in various ways, although that doesn't make an entire race "evil" for having flaws. While Chaos, Dark Elves, Vampire Counts, Orcs ect are consumed with destruction, hate, murder, selfishness or some form of evil depending on the race.

Chaos represents 4 forms of evil, without debate. All four are totally and utterly destructive and corrupt and are the sources of evil in Warhammer. Dark Elves followed this path because their king was a murderous, blood thirsty tyrant, he didn't get kicked out of HE lands wrongfully. HE were just to deny him leadership, or many would have suffered, and the entire HE empire would have been turned into a force as twisted form that you see in Naggorath.

Dwarfs, High Elves, and Humans are generally good. They would leave in peace much of the time if it wasn't for their arch rivals constantly trying to invade them. In contrast the forces of destruction would turn on eachother as soon as the war was over against the forces of Order. The forces of order don't live for constant war, they are forced to fight to survive, and they otherwise would rather enjoy luxuries of life over never ending turmoil.

[JMagic]

Dark Elves are awesome. Witch Elves bathing in cauldrons of blood to retain their youth= brilliant. Their leader is a sick and sadistic tyrant that gets it on with his mother, kinda sick but he is still one heck of a ruler;). All in all DE's are my second favorite Warhammer race. Witch Elves and Executioners<----best DE units ever, well at least I think so.

[Flegler]

Besides, Malekith didn't really need to kill anyone surely, the title was his by birthright.
Given that the High Elves never actually had hereditary rulers and they just made Aenarion king because he was a tremendous badass, that claim seems a little tenuous. Malekith's just a whiny brat with a massive sense of entitlement.

But we all know the whole political bit was just an excuse for the Dark Elves to set up their own country where they could take as many drugs as they like, so that's alright.

[spirit]

Chaos represents 4 forms of evil, without debate.

I think the large discussion in the Chaos forums on "Chaos are really the good guys" shows that its not "without debate" at all.

The Chaos gods are emotion without restraint, not necessarily good nor evil. (chaoitic).

"but Khorne is the god of violence and murder!"- well yeah, but what about when you need the powers of violence and murder to get to a position to do good for your land, or to protect yourself from others or from natural problems.

"but Nurgle is a god of death and destruction"- He is also the god who protects people from these things.

"but Tzeentch is manipulative and twists and corrupts"- he changes things, for good or bad- he causes progress.

"but Slaanesh is a sex-obsessed hermaphrodite!" - Pleasure. Whats life without pleasure?


The Gods themselves are the extremities of the emotions, but in the same way that a god of law is extreme at being lawful, even giving parking fines to elderly women who only parked there because her car broke down, even if that fine means that she will die of starvation the next week.



As for all the other races, all of them have good and bad sides, some just have more bad sides than good sides, and some have more good sides than bad sides.

[Ralzar]

In warhammer otoh there is imo a very clear cut between good and evil.

True that.

In Warhammer, everyone is evil.

Doesn't get much easier than that! :D

[Rudger]

Everyone knows that the Bretonnians are the only true good guys in all of this. I mean, c'mon, they're a whole nation of knights in shining armour. You can't get much more good guy than that.

Oh, and Dark Elves? They're just Elves with a different paint-job. Still cowardly little things. Oh, and before you say "Say that to a Witch Elf." Well, I'll either have The Hat to defeat her, so I win. Or The Lady to defeat here soooo...I win again. Weeeeee!

[morskittar]

Everyone knows that the Bretonnians are the only true good guys in all of this. I mean, c'mon, they're a whole nation of knights in shining armour. You can't get much more good guy than that.

I think Bretonnia's horde of starving, beaten, and ignored peasants would disagree.

[Rudger]

I think Bretonnia's horde of starving, beaten, and ignored peasants would disagree.

They aren't allowed to disagree, so their troubles are cast aside. It is a fool that thinks these peasants as people. Ha! Quite foolish indeed.

Yup. Only good guys in the whole of Warhammer. No doubt.

[Bulwyf]

The Elves will be one people again once Malekith has trampled Ulthuan beneath his booted heel and set right the injustice done so many centuries ago. The one true Phoenix King will reign over a land strewn with the corpses of the traitors too prideful to recognize their true liege. All hail the Witch King! Death to traitors!

[Shifte]

The omly TRUE good are the Lizardmen. They just fight to keep the Old Ones world exsisting, and protect their own cities. Brettonians have a very well explored corrupt side in 'Knights of the Grail'. :)

[Nathar]

No, neither lizardmen nor brettonians are paticularly good. They all just strive for survival, their spot in the world and the power to get what is their's. The right gods, the right throne, the right land, the right power etc.

Hence everyone are good from their perspective (or at least just, good is a bad word) and evil from everyone else's.

[Kalledon]

Looked up dark elves on wikipedia (not the most trustworthy source i know) and found that the dark elves split form the high elves because of a political disagreement. I know realism should have nothing to do w/ my appreciation of WAR, but kuddos to GW for giving the Dark elves a realistic reason for being 'Dark'

That's a very simplistic way of explaining the split, but it's not incorrect.

[Galain]

Afaik in all fantasy universes all elves come from a common civilization but due to ideology and beliefs at some point in their history they split up and form their own new civilizations.

Dark and High elves are the prime example in almost ALL fantasies. All of them have these 2 "races". They both start of as high elves and in the end the dark elves split up because either they were thrown out as outcasts or they left on their own after years of civil war.

Warcraft follows this example as well. They all started as night elves, but high elves (the upper class of the elves) wanted to use arcane magic instead of nature power and were thus outcasted. These high elves later on renamed themselves Blood elves after their capital and kinship was murdered.

Warhammer. All started as a single civilization. Don't know exactly what happened as i never followed elf lore but from what i gather Malekith was supposed to be the new king but was denied his right and thus split up the elf civilization.

Everquest. They all started as high elves. At some point (similar to warhammer) they split up due to ideology i.e once favored use of dark arts while the other didn't, and thus they split up and changed skin color because they lived underground.

Warcraft is very lovingly modeled on Warhammer, so it's not surprising to see similarities there. :)

In Everquest, I recall hearing a different story, that this god of Hate captured an Elven King and Queen for centuries, driving them made with hate. For some reason, this turned their skin black and made them Dark Elves.

I think most "Dark" sides of elves follow a similar pattern, with some supernatural reason as to why "They are TOTALLY not like us!" In Warhammer, though, it started out as a simple political squabble. It's become far more than that since then, of course. It's even mentioned that Dark Elves tend to look more "feral" than their High Elf kin. But no matter how you slice it, it's a lot better than "And then they fell to the Dark Side and their skin turned black."

[PlagueLord]

isn't that just a name?

are they really different from high elves on a genetic level?

black hair and paler skin.

[Julius]

If you want to see no clear cut between good and evil it's wow you should look at.


What? Everybody in WoW is just good. Except for the evil scourge who everyone fights against...

[morskittar]

The omly TRUE good are the Lizardmen. They just fight to keep the Old Ones world exsisting, and protect their own cities. Brettonians have a very well explored corrupt side in 'Knights of the Grail'. :)

Bah. The lizardmen are just mindless automatons, fulfilling the whims of their dead gods. All blind law and stupidness.

The skaven are obviously the only true good guys in Warhammer, as they're the only ones who have truly embraced the joys of technology, science, and advancement. They're not a dying race, they don't pretend to be what they're not, and they aren't split into multiple nations. Unity, pack values, and the advancement of science! This is what gives them divine right to the entire Warhammer world.

[Bulwyf]

Bah. The lizardmen are just mindless automatons, fulfilling the whims of their dead gods. All blind law and stupidness.

The skaven are obviously the only true good guys in Warhammer, as they're the only ones who have truly embraced the joys of technology, science, and advancement. They're not a dying race, they don't pretend to be what they're not, and they aren't split into multiple nations. Unity, pack values, and the advancement of science! This is what gives them divine right to the entire Warhammer world.

That and their ability to betray each other, run away at a moment's notice and the constant squabbling of the Council of 13 that prevents any Clan from rising to true dominance. ;)

[Torr]

I always looked at them as the same race but altered by thier locations. Like the difference between humans living in Africa compared to those living in Siberia. They are all human beings, but with noticable physical differences.

In my mind I always think of the High Elves as the "Socal Elves" (southern california that is) and the Dark Elves as "Goth Elves". As for good and evil... yeah, all these races have got blood on thier hands. But of all the races that are in WAR, if I had to pick just one that was inherently evil... I'd have to say the Dark Elves are the most naturally evil. Slavery, torture, and backstabbing are not really looked down upon in thier culture, and are in fact admired. The other races utilize the same tools, but none revel in them as much as the Druchii. I guess that's why I want to play one (not that I'm sadistic or anything). :p

[Steel*Faith]

I think the large discussion in the Chaos forums on "Chaos are really the good guys" shows that its not "without debate" at all.

The Chaos gods are emotion without restraint, not necessarily good nor evil. (chaoitic).

"but Khorne is the god of violence and murder!"- well yeah, but what about when you need the powers of violence and murder to get to a position to do good for your land, or to protect yourself from others or from natural problems.

"but Nurgle is a god of death and destruction"- He is also the god who protects people from these things.

"but Tzeentch is manipulative and twists and corrupts"- he changes things, for good or bad- he causes progress.

"but Slaanesh is a sex-obsessed hermaphrodite!" - Pleasure. Whats life without pleasure?


The Gods themselves are the extremities of the emotions, but in the same way that a god of law is extreme at being lawful, even giving parking fines to elderly women who only parked there because her car broke down, even if that fine means that she will die of starvation the next week.



As for all the other races, all of them have good and bad sides, some just have more bad sides than good sides, and some have more good sides than bad sides.

I hope you don't really believe what your saying in real life, as well as others saying the same things on this forum. It's pretty sick to justify chaos if you really mean it. Plague, sex obsession, sadism, murder, hate, deviation and lies, suffering, and worshiping daemons (the list goes on) isn't too "good" or sane for that matter.

If you really believe what your saying, leave these forums and seriously get some help.

[Krulltak]

I hope you don't really believe what your saying in real life, as well as others saying the same things on this forum. It's pretty sick to justify chaos if you really mean it. Plague, sex obsession, sadism, murder, hate, deviation and lies, suffering, and worshiping daemons (the list goes on) isn't too "good" or sane for that matter.

If you really believe what your saying, leave these forums and seriously get some help.


Blorc, I think you may be taking the whole "Chaos is evil" thing a bit too far.;)

[Tkyl]

I hope you don't really believe what your saying in real life, as well as others saying the same things on this forum. It's pretty sick to justify chaos if you really mean it. Plague, sex obsession, sadism, murder, hate, deviation and lies, suffering, and worshiping daemons (the list goes on) isn't too "good" or sane for that matter.

If you really believe what your saying, leave these forums and seriously get some help.

I think you took his post completely wrong. He isn't saying that "Plague, sex obsession, sadism, murder, hate, deviation and lies, suffering and worshipping daemons" is a good thing. Rather he is saying that these things are only a by product of what the gods are. Yes, they do these things, but they do other things that could actually be considered "good". Its just that they only get portrayed by the "good" races as evil doers. The chaos gods represent something good, but taken a bit too far.

[Kroo]

I hope you don't really believe what your saying in real life, as well as others saying the same things on this forum. It's pretty sick to justify chaos if you really mean it. Plague, sex obsession, sadism, murder, hate, deviation and lies, suffering, and worshiping daemons (the list goes on) isn't too "good" or sane for that matter.

If you really believe what your saying, leave these forums and seriously get some help.

No need to make a personal attack against him, he was just talking chaos from a philosophical point of view. Its just a game, chill. If you have been in ethics/philosophy classes/courses you should know that there are no pure "evil" and no pure "good" so bashing someone to the ground because you disagree with his point of view about what is evil and what is not isnt the way to go imo.

[Steel*Faith]

The Chaos gods are emotion without restraint, not necessarily good nor evil. (chaoitic).

"but Khorne is the god of violence and murder!"- well yeah, but what about when you need the powers of violence and murder to get to a position to do good for your land, or to protect yourself from others or from natural problems.

"but Nurgle is a god of death and destruction"- He is also the god who protects people from these things.

"but Tzeentch is manipulative and twists and corrupts"- he changes things, for good or bad- he causes progress.

"but Slaanesh is a sex-obsessed hermaphrodite!" - Pleasure. Whats life without pleasure?

Well he seemed to be serious about this stuff. And no this isn't just a game people, these things are apart of the real world. A lot of people in the real world practice and do many of these things that the "Chaos Gods" represent. Sexual obsession and extremism is a big problem around the world. So is "Bloodlust" and murder that is constantly going on all over the world, where millions of people are slaughtered for pure pleasure and hate in some countries. Then there's things like plague and starvation that are wiping out millions each year in Africa alone.

Anyhow I won't go on about it, but i'm not getting too serious about Warhammer, i'm getting serious that there's millions of people around the wold that have lifestyles that liken to what the Chaos gods represent in Warhammer. So how am I supposed to know that "Spirit" doesn't really believe some of these things are right? I'll apologize to him if I offended him and if he isn't being serious.

The sick bottom line is, our world can be as sick and twisted as Warhammer, not to mention it's IP is based off our world.

[PlagueLord]

I hope you don't really believe what your saying in real life, as well as others saying the same things on this forum. It's pretty sick to justify chaos if you really mean it. Plague, sex obsession, sadism, murder, hate, deviation and lies, suffering, and worshiping daemons (the list goes on) isn't too "good" or sane for that matter.

If you really believe what your saying, leave these forums and seriously get some help.

thats life though isnt it...there isnt one thing he mentioned that doesnt happen in the real world, some people even worship daemons or gods whatever you want to call them..i think you missed his point.

[Steel*Faith]

I think the large discussion in the Chaos forums on "Chaos are really the good guys" shows that its not "without debate" at all.

I think I did get his point. I don't believe you can debate something that clearly is evil and corrupt, and is openly proud of it. There seems to be a lot of people who are fans of WHFB WH40k that justify Chaos and try to make it into a "noble" entity, which is ridiculous. I guess that's what Warhammer does anyhow, it makes you pick your allegiance and your belief and makes you fight for it.

[JD_Brett]

I think I did get his point. I don't believe you can debate something that clearly is evil and corrupt, and is openly proud of it. There seems to be a lot of people who are fans of WHFB WH40k that justify Chaos and try to make it into a "noble" entity, which is ridiculous. I guess that's what Warhammer does anyhow, it makes you pick your allegiance and your belief and makes you fight for it.


I think the main reason he’s saying this isn’t because he believes in it. He's saying it because debating is fun!





P.S. Let’s try to leave all that crappy real world stuff out of these forums. Thanks.;)

[spirit]

Blorc: I wasn't saying that such things are good. I was saying that a God of something represents the entirity of that emotion, from the mild and good right up to the extreme and nasty. Tzzentch is the god of change. That means ALL change is a part of him, the change of the sun moving through the sky. The change of mountains slowly moving their way around the world. The evolution of creatures great and small. He represents all of these as well as the evil, corrupt change, those of plotting and manipulation, backstabbing and murder.

With Gods such as the Chaos gods, all sorts of considerations have to be taken into account. Slaanesh as a deity may be bad, but would we truly want to live in a world where we have no pleasure?

A punch is not an evil act. Punching a child is an evil act. Punching a brick wall is not. Punching a mugger in the face? Probably not evil. Punching your brother because he stole your favourite toy? Probably not evil.
Violence in itself is not evil, it must be placed in context to become evil. As such, the God of violence is not evil, until he is placed in a context where that becomes evil, such as trying to destroy all life on the old world.

I honestly don't believe the Chaos Gods are evil because they are Gods of emotion. Gods born of emotion. And I would feel entirely wrong if I said that emotion was an evil thing.

Chaos are weird, strange, yes. Evil? And again, it also depends whether you talk about the Gods themselves, and their followers. It may be possible that their followers are extremely evil, that they joined up in order to get power for themselves and to dominate the world. Then again it could be that they were brought up in Norscan society, bred to believe that strength of mind and of body gives you right. Brought up to believe that the four chaos gods are the true gods, and that the vicious Sigmar is a dictatorate God, seeking to bind your people under his oppressive Empire.

Evil? No. Moral relativism is in full flow in Warhammer.

[cmstophe]

Yow.


If you wish to learn more about Warhammer lore, follow my links.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/frontpage.aspx

http://blacklibrary.com/default.asp

This is not your goody-goody High Fantasy setting like DnD or WoW, this is a mature, dark, and sinister "Low Fantasy" setting, with no clear cut between good and evil.

Warcraft isn't nitty gritty, but it definately defies the typical "good vs evil" generic stereotypes, you know.

[Krulltak]

Warcraft isn't nitty gritty, but it definately defies the typical "good vs evil" generic stereotypes, you know.


Not really. It's just a whole bunc of do-gooders fighting the same ol' invading demon army.

ANd it's VERY shallow.

[Jasej]

Not really. It's just a whole bunc of do-gooders fighting the same ol' invading demon army.

ANd it's VERY shallow.

Nooo, iiit, iiiis, noooot... Why does every discussion have to turn into a WoW basher?
Seriously, the setting is not shallow.

If everybody is soo good and everything is so see-through, how do you explain the numerous assasination attempts at several leaders of the nations?
The Defias Brotherhood?
The ever growing corruption in Stormwind?
I could go on and on and on and on, but that would really ruin the idea of these forums, as they are to discuss Warhammer Online, NOT World of Warcraft.. So please, unless we're talking graphics or game engine or something like that, leave WoW out of it, will ya?

Is it really that hard to get?

[Hatemonger]

You're arguing against a banned user and a post that is more than two weeks old, mate.

If Krulltak can't appreciate the thirteen years of lore that Blizzard has crafted, then that's him missing out. I've personally seen posts of his dissing LotR and DnD, which are far more complex than WH it. It seems to be that if a fantasy setting isn't a bloodbath, then it's just "shallow" to our Orcy friend here, and he's certainly entitled to the silly opinion. I mean, WC is a more friendly version of WH. It started out that way, and it will continually progress that way. Don't see why people let their rampant fanboism get in the way of good games, but then again, I don't care.

Let me tell you one thing though, a lot of these "morally ambiguity" posts on this forum are BS, and you should accept them as such. If everything is "gray" in WH, then everything is "gray" in existence. There is no good and evil in ANYTHING, and the moral-absolute concepts just don't exist. DnD's humanity is "evil", Warcraft's humanity's evil, hell, OUR humanity is "evil". If REAL evil existed in our world; if demons and chaos-infested barbarians attacked America this very day, then you'd start seeing massive witch-burning and zealotry erupting all over the country. It's not evil, it's ______ logic!

[roadkizzle]

One thing that I really don't like about the other Dark Elves (namely drow) is that living in caves without light deep underground would in no way turn you darkskinned. In fact, Africans are dark skinned because they spent thousands of years living straight on the plains, with the most shade some trees and huts.

On the other hand, europeans are light skinned because they spent the same thousands of years living protected in shady caves.

Skin creates dark pigment as a protective measure against the sun. If you look at any of the creatures in the deepest parts of the sea, or the deepest caves, or even aquifers with no light, you will see that they are all albino. Not dark. Elves in warhammer make more sense in this respect than other fantasy settings. Dark elves live in a land that is perpetually dark and cold, so they have very pale skin. While Ulthuan is sunny and warmer, so High elves have more color in their skin.

[Dalamar]

One thing that I really don't like about the other Dark Elves (namely drow) is that living in caves without light deep underground would in no way turn you darkskinned. In fact, Africans are dark skinned because they spent thousands of years living straight on the plains, with the most shade some trees and huts.

On the other hand, europeans are light skinned because they spent the same thousands of years living protected in shady caves.

Skin creates dark pigment as a protective measure against the sun. If you look at any of the creatures in the deepest parts of the sea, or the deepest caves, or even aquifers with no light, you will see that they are all albino. Not dark. Elves in warhammer make more sense in this respect than other fantasy settings. Dark elves live in a land that is perpetually dark and cold, so they have very pale skin. While Ulthuan is sunny and warmer, so High elves have more color in their skin.

I know it's offtopic (and dead topic on top of that) but I just have to answer since I'm a drow (FR ones) freak ;)
FR Drow started as "Jungle" elves. Yup, their environment was mostly jungle and warm climates north of Chult. That's how they have their dark skin.
Now the descent might have happened a few thousand years ago in human years... but what's that for an elf? 3? 4? generations? how many genetic changes you notice in your grandchildren? none. So don't expect FR Drow to start getting pale for next couple thousand years I think. (I have no idea about EQ drow, Eberron drow, Greyhawk drow or any other derivative from the true FR DROW)

[roadkizzle]

Even if they're from a jungle climate. Jungle's have lots of shade from the trees even though some light can penetrate. That's why the south americans and mexicans are light-brown skinned. Nowhere the dark blue - black that most drow are pictured as.

For the dark elves to be anywhere near that color, they would need to grow up on plains with very little shade.


Granted, all this are fantasy settings, with magic... and a lot of wierd things do happen.

[Hatemonger]

I'm not even going to go into why complaining about something like that is silly in a FANTASY setting, and will instead state that it's obviously a stylistic thing. They wanted their "evil" elves to have black skin, and thus, they have black skin.

[Dalamar]

But evil dark-skinned white-haired elves are so overdone these days -.-
I'm actually happy with Warhammer Druchii and Warcraft Sin'dorei actually *not* being dark skinned (as much as I love drow ;)... but everything has its limits)

[Hatemonger]

Yeah, don't get me wrong, it's cool having the "evil" Elves not actually be dark-skinned, but it wasn't "overdone" in the days on DnD. I'm pretty sure they created the concept. :p

(waits for someone to rush in and correct him)

[Dalamar]

Nope, you're right. DnD came up with Drow... it's just everything else rushed with the flow after they became immensely popular. (they were in only one DnD setting at first... now I think only Dragonlance still manages to fend them off)

[Vikingkingq]

Just to throw my 2 cents into the DE topic (not the good and evil one, since that's been done much better in other threads that people can just search for):

I think that people (Like Krulltak) tend to be over-literal about the Dark Elf Army Book's description of Malekith passing through the flames of Asuryan, and tend to emphasize it as more reliable evidence than it is.

The facts of the matter are these:
1. Aenarion was the first king, and became king by being voted in and then passing through the flames of Asuryan.
2. The council of elders chose not to elect Malekith - as was their right to do so.
3. Malekith engineered the downfall of the king and then seized control of the shrine of Asuryan. Which he did not have the right to do, since he was not elected.
4. The flames burned him horribly and he had to flee.

Now, the issue in dispute is this:

Did the flames, which did not burn Aenarion, and have not burned any other Phoenix King candidate, burn him because they were influenced by a spell, or were they genuine? To an extent, this question is ultimately impossible to answer. However, given the fact that said elves would have to be more powerful than a god, and in any case, much more powerful than Malekith himself, who is recognized as one of the most powerful wizards in all of history, I would argue that the chances are not good.

Moreover, considering that the flames are meant to test the fitness of a candidate to rule, especially their moral and mental fitness (which are hard for any council to determine accurately), Malekith's actions don't suggest that he would have passed the test even if he had been elected: after being defeated by the forces of Caledor I, he tried to undo the spell that kept the Vortex in place - an act that, if successful, would have unleashed the full force of Chaos on the world. As a result of this action, Malekith caused the Sundering - destroying most of Nagarythe and Tiranoc, and killing thousands of thousands of his people. These are not the actions of a worthy King.

[PlagueLord]

High Elf...Dark Elf...they all bleed when they're missing their knees. Usually the same color too.

The War of Vengeance does not lay unforgotten. My axe proves that.

lol i love the intellectual response from dwarfs..always has something to with their axe and that it can prove stuff. delusional little garden gnomes that they are

[PlagueLord]

Just to throw my 2 cents into the DE topic (not the good and evil one, since that's been done much better in other threads that people can just search for):

I think that people (Like Krulltak) tend to be over-literal about the Dark Elf Army Book's description of Malekith passing through the flames of Asuryan, and tend to emphasize it as more reliable evidence than it is.

The facts of the matter are these:
1. Aenarion was the first king, and became king by being voted in and then passing through the flames of Asuryan.
2. The council of elders chose not to elect Malekith - as was their right to do so.
3. Malekith engineered the downfall of the king and then seized control of the shrine of Asuryan. Which he did not have the right to do, since he was not elected.
4. The flames burned him horribly and he had to flee.

Now, the issue in dispute is this:

Did the flames, which did not burn Aenarion, and have not burned any other Phoenix King candidate, burn him because they were influenced by a spell, or were they genuine? To an extent, this question is ultimately impossible to answer. However, given the fact that said elves would have to be more powerful than a god, and in any case, much more powerful than Malekith himself, who is recognized as one of the most powerful wizards in all of history, I would argue that the chances are not good.

Moreover, considering that the flames are meant to test the fitness of a candidate to rule, especially their moral and mental fitness (which are hard for any council to determine accurately), Malekith's actions don't suggest that he would have passed the test even if he had been elected: after being defeated by the forces of Caledor I, he tried to undo the spell that kept the Vortex in place - an act that, if successful, would have unleashed the full force of Chaos on the world. As a result of this action, Malekith caused the Sundering - destroying most of Nagarythe and Tiranoc, and killing thousands of thousands of his people. These are not the actions of a worthy King.

you are viewing it from high elves perspective...both sides have different stories...to some malekith was a great hero who fought with his men and was willing to die in battle with them.

[Vikingkingq]

you are viewing it from high elves perspective...both sides have different stories...to some malekith was a great hero who fought with his men and was willing to die in battle with them.

I'm looking at both sides. Can you explain how exactly the flames of Asuryan were tampered with or why Malekith tried to unlock the Vortex?

[Dalamar]

There is no sign of Elven gods manifestation in warhammer world, except the flames... which we don't know how were created?
They might as well be high magic spell cast in ages past as the temple was created. And as a spell it could be tampered with.
Malekith was brilliant tactician and diplomat, sadly he didn't care much for internal bickering of elven nobles and was more interested in race's expansion and growth. He was the one that lead elves to the Old World to colonise it. He was the one that struck peace with the Dwarves. Under his rule Elves would prosper on Ulthuan.
High Elves are prone to court intrigue and politics scheming just like their dark cousins (with small difference that Druchii assassinate their political opponents), It's nicely represented in TT rule where at the start of the battle, High Elf player *randomly* chooses who got to be the general today. In other words, for high elves, best leader is the influential one, not the wise/powerful/couragous one.

Malekith tried to unravel the Vortex *after* he was betrayed and burned in the flames. It was last resort against the betrayers. It wasn't Malekith's spell that destroyed Naggarythe and Tiranoc, it was High Elven counterspell gone wrong. I agree though that if Malekith was successful the tide of chaos would spill over the world. And the Druchii would ride that tide as they are meant to.

[Xurré]

Even if they're from a jungle climate. Jungle's have lots of shade from the trees even though some light can penetrate. That's why the south americans and mexicans are light-brown skinned. Nowhere the dark blue - black that most drow are pictured as.

For the dark elves to be anywhere near that color, they would need to grow up on plains with very little shade.


Granted, all this are fantasy settings, with magic... and a lot of wierd things do happen.
There are numerous theories on how the drow got to have their black skin, but “they got it from the sun” (or “they got it from living underground”) has never been among them.

One of the leading theories goes a bit as follows. It is known that Corellon Larethian (king of the elven deities) married the minor elven deity Araushnee who was known for her exotic beauty and black skin. With her he had two children, the deities Vhaeraun and Eilistraee, both of whom shared their mother’s black skin. But the marriage between the two didn’t go very well (since Araushnee was a manipulative and power-hungry b*tch :p ). The theory goes that in an attempt to save their marriage Corellon gave one of the elven sub-races (the Ssri-Tel’Quessir, who later became the drow) black skin to celebrate the beauty of his wife and children. Araushnee thought he was insulting her and this led to her finally betraying the elven deities and getting herself (and her children, though Eilistraee’s was a voluntary banishment) banished and turned into a demon. She took the name Lolth and regained her divinity to rule over the drow once they became banished (much later) from the other elves.

Another leading theory is more as follows and has far less to do with deities. The Ssri-Tel’Quessir, coming from a jungle climate, already had dark skin, but it wasn’t really black. During the Crown Wars between the elven sub-races one of the dominant Ssri-Tel’Quessir tribes (the Ilythiiri tribe) become known for doing evil things (burning down elven forests) and following evil deities (mostly Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur at that time, Lolth was still regaining her strength in the Demonweb Pits and only got involved in the wars near the end); though some of the other elves involved in the war (particularly the Aryvandaar Gold Elves) were certainly no sweethearts either. This led to a large number of High Mages coming together to weave magics (calling on Corellon Larethian) to banish the evil Ilythiiri. But as with most elven magic those days they over-extended themselves and actually banished all[ Ssri-Tel’Quessir underground. After which they became known as drow. So far it’s pretty much fact, but the theory goes that this magic also turned their skin black (the sources say they were “turned into drow”). Sort of a “wear the blackness of your hearts on your skin”.

Probably more than you ever wanted to know about Forgotten Realms drow, but drow are close to my heart (I’d say even closer than the druchii and I can get far more zealous about Eilistraee than I’ve ever been about Khaine or Witch Elves ;)).

On that note I’d also say that the split between High Elves and Dark Elves in Warhammer isn’t as unique as some seem to see it. Their split was mostly due to politics and war, but the exact same thing is true for the drow in the Forgotten Realms; it took four “Crown Wars” (basically world wars) between the elves to lead to the split. And sure, deities were involved, but the same is true for the druchii (Slaanesh in particular seduced Morathi who in turn influenced Malekith just as some of the drow deities seduced the drow). The only real differences I see is one of scale (the scale of the Forgotten Realms conflicts being much, much larger and detailed), where the split led to (Icy lands or underground realm) and the fact that the Warhammer elves started out as the exact same race where the Forgotten Realms elves were considered separate subraces from the start. Though maybe that’s all the difference it takes.

Don’t get me wrong, I do quite like the druchii very much and I do think that they’re unique. But I’m not convinced that the split is necessarily what makes them thus.


- Xurré

[Browncoat-WHA]

How'd I miss this one? Doh!

*MOVED with a large Crane to Dark elf Discussion*

[Vikingkingq]

There is no sign of Elven gods manifestation in warhammer world, except the flames... which we don't know how were created?
They might as well be high magic spell cast in ages past as the temple was created. And as a spell it could be tampered with.
Malekith was brilliant tactician and diplomat, sadly he didn't care much for internal bickering of elven nobles and was more interested in race's expansion and growth. He was the one that lead elves to the Old World to colonise it. He was the one that struck peace with the Dwarves. Under his rule Elves would prosper on Ulthuan.
High Elves are prone to court intrigue and politics scheming just like their dark cousins (with small difference that Druchii assassinate their political opponents), It's nicely represented in TT rule where at the start of the battle, High Elf player *randomly* chooses who got to be the general today. In other words, for high elves, best leader is the influential one, not the wise/powerful/couragous one.

Malekith tried to unravel the Vortex *after* he was betrayed and burned in the flames. It was last resort against the betrayers. It wasn't Malekith's spell that destroyed Naggarythe and Tiranoc, it was High Elven counterspell gone wrong. I agree though that if Malekith was successful the tide of chaos would spill over the world. And the Druchii would ride that tide as they are meant to.

Sure there is evidence of the Elven gods: in addition to the flames, we have the Everqueen who's linked to Shallya, the Phoenix King who's linked to Asuryan, the [rophetic words of fire written on the walls of the sanctum of the Phoenix Guard, etc. Moreover, in the world of Warhammer, the nature of the Aethyr means that if people believe a god exists, the god exists, and the gods answer prayers. Whether the gods had an independent existance is beyond the point - if the elves believed that Asuryan exists, he does, and is fuelled by their belief. Are you really telling me a being of that power can be overpowered by a mere mortal?

In any case, Malekith's actions were still insanely dangerous - the tide of Chaos is impossible for ANYONE to "ride the tide," despite the delusions of the Dark Elves. Even the most powerful mages in Elven history, including Caledor Dragontamer, could only barely hold it back at the cost of their eternal imprisonment. At the very least, it rises to the level of reckless endangerment on a world-destroying level.

[Watcher]

I came into this thread all fluff-guns blazing, and then I noticed that Vikingkingq had beat me to it. Again.

Seriously, listen to the man. He speaks truth.

[Dalamar]

Xurre, I hope to see you on the same RP server as I'll be playing on :O yay for people knowing what's good in elves!

And about riding the tide of chaos. Imagine a surfer. Can he stop the waves? nope, he rides them, not really controlling them but also not getting engulfed. It's the thrill the Druchii love, to balance on the dagger's edge.

[roadkizzle]

Thank you Xurre, for at least explaining that the black sense does make sense in some supernatural manner.

[Xurré]

You're quite welcome. :)


- Xurré

[Thrakkesh]

Forgotten Realms Drow fail because Drizzit Do'urden is seriously the worst creation ever and R.A. Salvatore should be burned at the stake.

Seriously, he's the only reason I shy away from FR Drow. I know it sounds unfair to the people who developed it--but EVERY freaking Drow player in D&D plays a Drizzit clone. And seriously, a Jade Panther? Ugh.

Discuss.

Edit: I also hated Elisatree and the whole surface Drow bit as it was a cheap cop-out to have good-aligned Drow character, but then I've always hated that "I'm a good guy REALLY" motif, be it with vampires, Dark Elves, or any other base of fiction. I like my evil to be total, thanks.)

[Xurré]

Edit: I also hated Elisatree and the whole surface Drow bit as it was a cheap cop-out to have good-aligned Drow character, but then I've always hated that "I'm a good guy REALLY" motif, be it with vampires, Dark Elves, or any other base of fiction. I like my evil to be total, thanks.)
Awww, so I guess you don't like my website (http://www.eilistraee.com/). ;)

Anyway, I don't see Lolthian priestesses anywhere near close to Witch Elves. If anything they're closer to druchii nobility.


- Xurré

[Thrakkesh]

If I were part of your RP community, I would be trying to kill you a lot. :o