Faith in sigmar 1st, but....

[Steel*Faith]

What about your loyalty and glory to the Emperor? Emperor Karl Franz is a powerful, and honorary leader that Empire fans can be proud of. Despite the corruption in government, he stands as a outwardly pious and trustworthy leader of the Empire. I don't see many people talking about him much.

He is an intelligent and open-minded leader, which is rare in Warhammer, and I think he can be attributed to the growth and strength of the Empire currently due to his support to the further development of engineering, his faith in Sigmar, his willingness to trust and make allies to other races (HE, Dwarfs), and his political honesty and sincere devotion to his people.

How many of you plan on spreading the praise of Sigmar and the Emperor as well? How many of you would fight & die protecting him from being taken by the enemy to be humiliated and tortured?

[Montague]

What about your loyalty and glory to the Emperor? Emperor Karl Franz is a powerful, and honorary leader that Empire fans can be proud of. Despite the corruption in government, he stands as a outwardly pious and trustworthy leader of the Empire. I don't see many people talking about him much.

He is an intelligent and open-minded leader, which is rare in Warhammer, and I think he can be attributed to the growth and strength of the Empire currently due to his support to the further development of engineering, his faith in Sigmar, his willingness to trust and make allies to other races (HE, Dwarfs), and his political honesty and sincere devotion to his people.

How many of you plan on spreading the praise of Sigmar and the Emperor as well? How many of you would fight & die protecting him from being taken by the enemy to be humiliated and tortured?


The Emperor is to be respected but not revered, as no mortal should be. As for myself, I fight and defend the Empire from Chaos for the sake of all the innocents, not just one man.

- Sir Manfred Von Schroeder, Knight Of The Blazing Sun.

[Flegler]

I hate Karl-Franz with a passion. I wish he'd die so we could get a proper Emperor, one who doesn't equate the responsibility of rulership with riding around on a dragon tooled up with all the best magic trinkets. That's orc thinking - or worse, Bretonnian.

Black*Orc, the reason you don't see many people talking about His Imperial Majesty is because he's an incredibly boring character. Noble, just, heroic - this is not what I want from the leader of the most civilised nation in the Old World. The High Elves have it right: you never see Finubar the Seafarer on the battlefield now do you?

[Rudger]

That's orc thinking - or worse, Bretonnian.


Watch your tongue Imperial dog!

But yeah, the only reason I'm playing Empire is because of the distinct lack of Bretonnia goodness. As soon as they come into it, it'll be all for Bretonnia, for The Lady and for The King!

...Karl-Franz annoys me, for no apparent reason.

[Flegler]

Watch your tongue Imperial dog!

You, sir, are not fit to wear such a dashing hat.

[Rudger]

You, sir, are not fit to wear such a dashing hat.

I've been wearing it longer than you. I was wearing it before it was cool :p

...It is very dashing though, isn't it?

[Evander]

Our Lord Sigmar goes beyond and above our dearly honerable Emperor. For it is told, when the darkest hour of man draws near He, Sigmar, will return to his people and offer once more the protection to those who love him and have shown respect to his deeds in worshipment. And when he does return, it is he who then instantly claims the crown of Emperor and ruler of all men.

Long live Sigmar's holy love.

[Vikingkingq]

What about your loyalty and glory to the Emperor? Emperor Karl Franz is a powerful, and honorary leader that Empire fans can be proud of. Despite the corruption in government, he stands as a outwardly pious and trustworthy leader of the Empire. I don't see many people talking about him much.

He is an intelligent and open-minded leader, which is rare in Warhammer, and I think he can be attributed to the growth and strength of the Empire currently due to his support to the further development of engineering, his faith in Sigmar, his willingness to trust and make allies to other races (HE, Dwarfs), and his political honesty and sincere devotion to his people.

How many of you plan on spreading the praise of Sigmar and the Emperor as well? How many of you would fight & die protecting him from being taken by the enemy to be humiliated and tortured?

Our faith in Sigmar is our faith in the Emperor. It's because of our devotion to the cause of unity among men in defiance of chaos that we follow the Emperor. I agree that Karl Franz is a good Emperor, although not the best mortal Emperor (I would pick Magnus the Pious), but he's been fairly successful in his policies. Moreover, there's his victory in the battle of Black Fire Pass (not the first battle there, but the one described in the army book) where Sigmar Himself possessed the Emperor for a brief moment to aid him in his duel with an Orc Warboss.

[Oasis]

...freelancer ftw

[Krulltak]

Meh, I never did like ol' Franzy. We need a more Alexander-esque Emperor!

[Vikingkingq]

I hate Karl-Franz with a passion. I wish he'd die so we could get a proper Emperor, one who doesn't equate the responsibility of rulership with riding around on a dragon tooled up with all the best magic trinkets. That's orc thinking - or worse, Bretonnian.

Black*Orc, the reason you don't see many people talking about His Imperial Majesty is because he's an incredibly boring character. Noble, just, heroic - this is not what I want from the leader of the most civilised nation in the Old World. The High Elves have it right: you never see Finubar the Seafarer on the battlefield now do you?

See, I don't buy that. To me, what makes K. F interesting is that he's a statesman - yes, he's a generally good person, but first and foremost he's the Emperor who does what needs to be done. Perfect example is his solution to the Valten crisis - rather than getting sucked into the dispute between Esmer and Huss on either side, he sidestepped the matter by giving Ghal Maraz to the young man and proclaiming him spiritual leader of the Empire, while retaining political power. It's that mix of practicality and idealism that I find interesting.

Also, his dynasty, the Reikland Emperors, are interesting because they've been responsible for trying to push for more political participation by commoners, trying to establish a Constitution and Imperial Parliament to replace the current Council of State and the Imperial Council under Emperor Mattheus II (Karl Franz' grandfather) . Those efforts have been defeated, but they were able to push various Counts towards est. regional Parliaments (called Prime Estates) and have established a Reikland Parliament for the Crown Province.

[Fusko]

Meh, I never did like ol' Franzy. We need a more Alexander-esque Emperor!

I'd prefer something along the lines of Conan... but then again, I guess Age of Conan is coming out... >_>

[Krulltak]

I'd prefer something along the lines of Conan... but then again, I guess Age of Conan is coming out... >_>


Sigmar was very Conan-esque, being a primitive barbarian and all.

[Fusko]

Sigmar was very Conan-esque, being a primitive barbarian and all.

Only if he's played by Arnold, otherwise he's not very Conan-esque in my book!

Nice sig btw

[Krulltak]

Only if he's played by Arnold, otherwise he's not very Conan-esque in my book!

Nice sig btw

Conan was originally a 1930s revolutionary fantasy setting with no link to governating Austrians.

Why thank you, it is a nice sig. Did not think anyone would understand it.:)

[Rarduzi]

Conan was originally a 1930s revolutionary fantasy setting with no link to governating Austrians.

Bran Mak Morn is the last true king (little Robert E. Howard refrence there) . I'd like see an emperor more like him.

[Vikingkingq]

Nah. A Conan-type wouldn't work. It made sense for Sigmar, cause that was back in the day - but the Empire is high Renaissance, which is far too advanced for a barbarian Emperor to make sense.

[Scion]

Sigmar is the Empire itself, the Emperor is a steward, a stand-in until Sigmar returns again in mortal skin to lead us to victory against our enemies. With every generation it seems that our Emperors lack conviction, truly these are the wanning years of our glorious Empire, but with Sigmar reincarnate we will become strong again! Long live the Empire and the Emperor, we keep His lands clean of corruption, so that he may come again.

[Oasis]

Sigmar is the Empire itself, the Emperor is a steward, a stand-in until Sigmar returns again in mortal skin to lead us to victory against our enemies. With every generation it seems that our Emperors lack conviction, truly these are the wanning years of our glorious Empire, but with Sigmar reincarnate we will become strong again! Long live the Empire and the Emperor, we keep His lands clean of corruption, so that he may come again.
lol..sure you guys do:p ..but doesnt look like you guys are keeping your empire germ-free a.k.a. chaos plague

[Scion]

lol..sure you guys do:p ..but doesnt look like you guys are keeping your empire germ-free a.k.a. chaos plague

Well, we're doing the best we can :p I think its high-time we get some damn credit for surviving this long, at least our lands arent swarming with...anything ;)

[Krulltak]

The Asur and Dawi will surely be the first to crumble under the destructive forces of the militaristicly superior Druchii and endless horde of Greenskins.

But the Empire may just last a little longer from thier enginuity and adaptation.;)

[Rudger]

The Asur and Dawi will surely be the first to crumble under the destructive forces of the militaristicly superior Druchii and endless horde of Greenskins.

But the Empire may just last a little longer from thier enginuity and adaptation.;)

Quoted for truth I'm afraid.

Both Elves and Dwarfs are dying out. Soon enough, it'll just be humans, standing alone against all the evils of the world. But in such a time, all humans shall unite, for a greater cause, and together, we shall strike out against the vile creatures! We shall not go quietly into the night!

[Krulltak]

Quoted for truth I'm afraid.

Both Elves and Dwarfs are dying out. Soon enough, it'll just be humans, standing alone against all the evils of the world. But in such a time, all humans shall unite, for a greater cause, and together, we shall strike out against the vile creatures! We shall not go quietly into the night!


The humans will never unite. Thier are humans on the side of Chaos, don't forget.

And it's not like the Empire ever got that friendly with Brettonia or the other Old World nations.......and the Eastern Lands are just some myth thought up by a crazy travler.

[Rudger]

The humans will never unite. Thier are humans on the side of Chaos, don't forget.

And it's not like the Empire ever got that friendly with Brettonia or the other Old World nations.......and the Eastern Lands are just some myth thought up by a crazy travler.

Pfft. Chaos cannot be considered human any more. They're monsters and traitors. It is an insult to compare them with such upstanding and proper people as us.

Also, I just meant the Old World really. They all have their little bickering, but they aren't stupid. They'd join together.

[NoneSuch]

Well it's true , if chaos did invade every un-corrupted human army would most likely join up to defend the human lands, when the world is on the brink of collapse it tends to unite people.

And certainly don't think the dwafs are going to dissapear , they might be low on numbers but they'll hold out underground and in their holds for a damn long time, I honestly expect dwarfs to be the last to fall hidden deep in some old keep from thousands of deamons and chaos , if the world was to be invaded. :p

And not mentioning ! I think orcs would stop pestering useless humans with chaos to fight , why fight weak manthings when there's legions of Armour-clad warriors looking for a fight?

[Scion]

And not mentioning ! I think orcs would stop pestering useless humans with chaos to fight , why fight weak manthings when there's legions of Armour-clad warriors looking for a fight?

Orcs are like bullies. They think they're superior, and they take comfort in larger numbers and intimidation. But when faced with equal or larger numbers and strength they crumble. Once they get a taste of Chaos they'll turn tail so fast they'll trample their WAAAAAGH!!!! banner. Personally I think the Orcs would win against the Chaos, but if Chaos defeats the Empire...well, nothing will be able to stop them.

[luy22]

The emperor from fantasy isn't a god... Sigmar IS a god!!! Karl Franz is NOT like the 40k emperor, who's in a vegetable state, nobody really sees him, he's fused to his throne and souls are sacrificed to him each day. Sooo...

For Sigmar and the Empire!!!!!!

[Veilside]

Karl Franz is like the british monarchy, he's there, but most people couldn't give a damn either way.
I believe the only people who really care about their state leader and such are Marienburgers, who are led by a merchant council or something similar, money after all, is a great incentive to follow someone.
Could be wrong though, haven't read any empire lore in a long time.

[heavyhebrew]

Sigmar, faith unfailing, faith unyielding, faith unending.....

Krulltak, those 'humans' you speak of ceased to be counted amongst the races of Man when they yielded to Chaos. I would not expect a greenskin to understand. ;)

[Krulltak]

Orcs are like bullies. They think they're superior, and they take comfort in larger numbers and intimidation. But when faced with equal or larger numbers and strength they crumble. Once they get a taste of Chaos they'll turn tail so fast they'll trample their WAAAAAGH!!!! banner. Personally I think the Orcs would win against the Chaos, but if Chaos defeats the Empire...well, nothing will be able to stop them.


WRONG! Of all the ignorant things to say......


Orcs fear absolutly nothing, and they respect the strong, whether it is an orc or not. They do not take "comfort" in large numbers, they just happen to have large numbers, and because large numbers is part of a really big and powerful attack plan ala the tactics of the Scottish Highlanders, they use it to thier advantage. When faced with equal numbers they can most definatly win, as orcs are not a bunch of weaklings, they are born warriors, and they are not about intimidation, they are about pride and winning, and they do all it takes to win a battle, but that just makes them combat-wise, not weak. They are powerful beasts.

Orcs have fought Chaos plenty of times before, and won thier fair share of battles. It is even stated in the lore that the power of the WAAAAGH! is second in destruction only to Chaos itself.

NOTHING can win against Chaos in the end, as it is absolutly destined to win. Greenskins and Skaven might hold out long against them, but they will eventually succum to the Ruinous Powers, as all the civilized nations will.

Orcs live to fight, as that is thier favorate thing to do. They also love winning fights, and possibly the only reason they ever retreat is to avoid losing, because if they run they can always come back for anuvva go, see! And even then, retreat is not that common.

They are "bullies" in a sense, but thier society is Darwinistic, survival of the fittest. The biggest is the strongest and the most powerful and unless somone becomes better than him he gets it all. The boss got killed in a fight with dem spikey boyz? Big deal, I'll just take over the tribe and become a better boss with a better attack!

If you are unfamiliar with Warhammer it is understandable to make the mistake of sticking to the mindset that "large numbers= weak and cowardly", but that does not go for orcs. You are thinking of goblins in that case. And on a sidenote, orcs are not as high in numbers as you think, being the least numberous of the Greenskins, and therefore an elite. The large numbers of the Greenskins is indeed an advantage, but it is an advantage they can live without. Just look at Grimgor's 'Ardboyz. A tribe very few in numbers, but made up of the toughest and strongest orcs the world has ever known, and many of them being Black Orcs, and they kicked major Chaos , Crom the Conquerer ending his fight with Grimgor as a stalemate.

Orcs loving nothing more than a fight, and they will fight the strongest thing around. Why do you think they fight the strong and hardy dwarfs, one of the few creatures who can match the orcs in strength, rather then the feeble bodied humans of the Old World? That was a rhetorical question, so don't answer it, as I already gave you an answer.

P.S. Please PM all responses to me, as to avoid further derailing of the thread.

[Scion]

You're right Krully, Im sorry :( Guess Im mistaking Orcs for Greenskins. Since I've been playing and looking at 40k longer than fantasy I supposed it rubbed off on me, cause the Boyz usually run away or infight if they face a larger or stronger force than they. Ok derailing off.

To sum up this thread: Sigmar > Empire > Franz. I'd bring down the Empire if Sigmar willed it, and I'd kill Franz if I thought it was crucial for the Empire.

[Steel*Faith]

I'm not going to turn this thread into a Greenskin vs Chaos Thread. Let's stay on topic please.

Anyhow, Karl Franz isn't a god emperor, true, but he is a leader worth following. He is a honest, strong, and intelligent leader. I think he is an Emperor worthy of Sigmar, and men of the Empire should honor him and fight under his leadership. I never said worship him though.

Also it's funny to me when people on this forum think Chaos, or any of the forces of evil are going to dominate the world eventually. They have been trying for thousands of years, and have managed to accomplish nothing but spreading destruction, only to be beaten back and crushed. Chaos followers will forever say that they will destroy everything, no matter how many times they get beat. The Empire just grows stronger because of men like Karl Franz, who continually strengthens and brings innovation to the Empire.

[Veilside]

I'm not going to turn this thread into a Greenskin vs Chaos Thread. Let's stay on topic please.

Anyhow, Karl Franz isn't a god emperor, true, but he is a leader worth following. He is a honest, strong, and intelligent leader. I think he is an Emperor worthy of Sigmar, and men of the Empire should honor him and fight under his leadership. I never said worship him though.

Also it's funny to me when people on this forum think Chaos, or any of the forces of evil are going to dominate the world eventually. They have been trying for thousands of years, and have managed to accomplish nothing but spreading destruction, only to be beaten back and crushed. Chaos followers will forever say that they will destroy everything, no matter how many times they get beat. The Empire just grows stronger because of men like Karl Franz, who continually strengthens and brings innovation to the Empire.

Not neccesarily true, it's undoubtable (sp??) that the chaos wastes keep on getting bigger and that the followers of chaos are becoming both more numerous and stronger.
Is there actually much real lore about Karl Franz? I'd be interested in seeing some.

[Steel*Faith]

Well it seems to be everyone seems to be getting "stronger". Dwarfs and High Elves are stepping down from their positions of dominance over everyone else, but that doesn't make them push-overs either. The balance of power fluctuates in Warhammer, Chaos had a time when they were supreme in the world, then the High Elves rose to power and stopped them. So many it will happen again, but it won't last forever, that's for sure.

[Rudger]

Well...Elves and Dwarfs are dying out. Not just because of battle, but they just aren't as numerous. Their numbers are slowly dwindling, seems as they're both "failed projects" of the Old One's. Soon enough there won't be any left. Eventually, humans will have to stand alone against all of the evils in the Old World.

True enough, major invasions have been beaten back so far, but that wouldn't have been possible without the help of Elves and Dwarfs. But who knows? The two races might not die-out for hundreds of years, in which time humans could become highly capable of fending off major invasions by themselves.

[Krulltak]

Blorc, what you have to realize is that the ONLY, ABSOLUTE reason Chaos has not yet destroyed at least the Empire, is because Games Workshop does not wish to lose money by destroying one of thier factions. That is the only true reason.

It is official lore that, although we will never see it do to buisness, Chaos will eventually win.

[Quitochan]

Yay Sigmar! This loyal citizen, Quito, fully supports right and proper leaders of appropriate human domains.

So Yay Sigmar! and smaller yay for Farl Kranz!

[Der_Eisenhans]

It doesn't matter if the Power of Destruction grow stronger everyday - in battle for Sigmar and the Emperor, not death is found, but only glory.

[Scion]

It doesn't matter if the Power of Destruction grow stronger everyday - in battle for Sigmar and the Emperor, not death is found, but only glory.

They win the battle, we win the war. As Sigmar was once our shepherd in life, so is he in our deaths. The temptation of Chaos is to single out the righteous and pious, we will fight them again on equal terms, our terms, once our bodies are returned and our leader is restored. Long live the Empire, and prepare well the glorious dead!

[Steel*Faith]

Blorc, what you have to realize is that the ONLY, ABSOLUTE reason Chaos has not yet destroyed at least the Empire, is because Games Workshop does not wish to lose money by destroying one of thier factions. That is the only true reason.

It is official lore that, although we will never see it do to business, Chaos will eventually win.

That's your opinion because you don't like the Empire. The reason supported by lore is that Chaos has been beaten in battle many times by many enemies. Chaos is powerful, but they aren't unstoppable like so many believe blindly.

The Empire has to fight off massive invasions by Chaos, Vampire Count legions, Skaven hordes, and WAAAGH's. They also have to fight other human nations like Brettonia, and Araby ect. Yet they still reign supreme, not because GW is making "money" (Chaos generates money for GW equal or more than Empire or Space Marines) but because the Empire is a diverse and powerful military.

In my opinion Karl Franz is a key reason why the Empire continues to get stronger, not weaker. Now the Empire not only has Holy power & Faith, Knightly Orders & Elite Troops, legions of troops, fine armors and weapons, and devastating magic, but he is expanding their technology and engineering. So they have a lot of reasons why their military can repel multiple invasions. Having intelligent & diplomatic leaders like Emp. Franz allows them to forge alliances with Dwarfs and High Elves, no other faction has the diplomacy to do that.

[Rudger]

I think I'll just quote myself.

Well...Elves and Dwarfs are dying out. Not just because of battle, but they just aren't as numerous. Their numbers are slowly dwindling, seems as they're both "failed projects" of the Old One's. Soon enough there won't be any left. Eventually, humans will have to stand alone against all of the evils in the Old World.

True enough, major invasions have been beaten back so far, but that wouldn't have been possible without the help of Elves and Dwarfs. But who knows? The two races might not die-out for hundreds of years, in which time humans could become highly capable of fending off major invasions by themselves.

Seriously, Steel. I'm all for humans. More power to us. But Chaos is limitless. As are Vampire Counts, Orcs and Skaven. Humans are not. Even though the Empire and Bretonnia are at relative peace, even both of them together couldn't hold off all the evils of the Warhammer World.

The Empire isn't as successful as you might think. They aren't expanding. The majority of their population lives in slums and poverty. And, they can barely stop the Chaos invasions. Without help, they cannot repel major invasions. I'm sorry to say, but just as the Chaos people are blindly believing they'll win, you're blindly believing that the Empire is all powerful and mighty. It won't hold out forever.

[SwaY]

Well said Krully page back or so, I dislike quoting half a page of text! so i'll just give you kudos! a shas been said orc are not weak live to die almost! and fighting is all they do. But alas if the Lore is to be followed Chaos will consume all, hard to say that being keen on orcs but yeh eventually they will conquer all.

[Steel*Faith]

Rudger you lack faith. I won't even bother with the Orc or Chaos fans, you will believe what you want, and of course you think the Empire will be overrun, that's all your existence is about, trying to sack the Empire.

Back to Rudger though, I think you need to remember that in Warhammer Sigmar is a real God, it's not debatable. Therefore Sigmar has a purpose and he is guiding the Empire for a purpose. Death to the faithful of Sigmar means eternal glory, which is the ultimate reward, so death means nothing. Sigmar has defeated Chaos, Greenskins, and other when the Empire was at it's weakest, and they were at their strongest; the same will happen again when it is least expected.

Sigmar is testing the faithful, and hopelessness and desperation are merely emotions of trial that worshipers of Sigmar must overcome to realize that he will lead HIS Empire, that he created, to glory in the old world and in the new that awaits all those that resist the temptations of Chaos.

Faith is all that matters.

[Artorius Necto]

This is why i love this warhammer universe, so many opions, so many points of views, and yet no one has managed to win the argument!!! Personnally i am an empire fan, i have always have been and always will be FOR SIGMAR AND THE EMPIRE!!!! All though i dont know of any lore books for karl franz, the life of sigmar is a brilliant read for any one who wish to learn some lore regarding sigmar and the birth of the empire!

[Krulltak]

That's your opinion because you don't like the Empire. The reason supported by lore is that Chaos has been beaten in battle many times by many enemies. Chaos is powerful, but they aren't unstoppable like so many believe blindly.



Actually, I love the Empire, as they are my second favorate faction in Warhammer Fantasy.

And it's almost EVERYONE who knows Warhammer well enough's opinion, and even then, it's not opinion.

It's official lore that some day Chaos will destroy all that oppose them. Chaos can be defeated in battle, but they WILL win the war. It is not blind belief, it is lore.

Good God, what did they do to you Black*Orc? You know when you disagree with Rudger on such a subject, that you have just become another blind religious zealot of Sigmar, completly ignorant to the truth. You even changed your forum name!

The Empire only BARELY survives major invasions, the invasion of Gorbad Ironclaw crippling them for a long time, sending them into civil war and nearly destroying them, plus many more invasions of the past.

Maybe it is you who is blind.

[Scion]

I'll take almost complete destruction over complete destruction any day. Those without faith are killed so those that do are not discouraged. Like I said before, its high-time people stopped looking at our "IMPENDING DOOM!" and started looking at our "unyielding faith!". Not to mention the same people who said that humanities death is inevitable are the same ones who write that they ALMOST were wiped out when such and such came with the largest so and so force to date. With faith we ultimately win, call it blind, call it hopeful or pitiful, but when you *know* that eventually everything you've worked so hard to build will be knocked down by your very opposite..theres nothing to have but faith, lest you despair, and that is a sign of Chaos.

[Steel*Faith]

It's official lore that some day Chaos will destroy all that oppose them. Chaos can be defeated in battle, but they WILL win the war. It is not blind belief, it is lore.

No that's not official lore. Official lore if anything seems to give possibilities that each race can potentially "rule" the world or "destroy everything". Skaven potentially could swarm over the entire world, Orcs could create a WAAAGH! so big and powerful it would crush everything, Chaos could unite and bring the downfall of all the races, Sigmar could finally return and lead the Empire to victory to crush all of their enemies and bring world wide peace, ect. Each race seems to have the potential for complete victory, but will it happen? That's more of a belief than a fact.

The facts are, to me anyways, is the struggle is never ending, despite what Chaos believes, or Greenskins, and so on. What can happen though is each race can become the dominant force in the world for various lengths of time, just as Chaos was at the beginning, then the Elves, and the Dwarfs, then the Empire and so on.

I think Warhammer is unpredictable, and the people who think Chaos will rule all one day, and forever bring a reign of Chaos are fooling themselves. I'm sure they thought that in the most recent massive Storm of Chaos, but what happened an? The seemingly unstoppable storm of Chaos was stopped and sent back to the wastes because of a Greenskin.

Anything can happen, and "faith" in the race you support is all that matters.

[Veilside]

No that's not official lore. Official lore if anything seems to give possibilities that each race can potentially "rule" the world or "destroy everything". Skaven potentially could swarm over the entire world, Orcs could create a WAAAGH! so big and powerful it would crush everything, Chaos could unite and bring the downfall of all the races, Sigmar could finally return and lead the Empire to victory to crush all of their enemies and bring world wide peace, ect. Each race seems to have the potential for complete victory, but will it happen? That's more of a belief than a fact.

The facts are, to me anyways, is the struggle is never ending, despite what Chaos believes, or Greenskins, and so on. What can happen though is each race can become the dominant force in the world for various lengths of time, just as Chaos was at the beginning, then the Elves, and the Dwarfs, then the Empire and so on.

I think Warhammer is unpredictable, and the people who think Chaos will rule all one day, and forever bring a reign of Chaos are fooling themselves. I'm sure they thought that in the most recent massive Storm of Chaos, but what happened an? The seemingly unstoppable storm of Chaos was stopped and sent back to the wastes because of a Greenskin.

Anything can happen, and "faith" in the race you support is all that matters.


You can't base anything on any GW campaigns, they would never allow any major lore change by having something like a succesful invasion in a campaign, go back and look at every single campaign GW have ever done and you'll see they were all pretty much fought to a standstill with neither side ever getting a clear advantage.

[Rudger]

To be honest, I just think Chaos will win because I love the whole desperate last stand thing. Against all the odds and everything. It's all good.

[Arijharn]

I'm sure they thought that in the most recent massive Storm of Chaos, but what happened an? The seemingly unstoppable storm of Chaos was stopped and sent back to the wastes because of a Greenskin.


Do you honestly believe that? Warhammer is one of Games Workshop's biggest money makers, not to mention has a very diverse and rich storyline. Games Workshop may be many things, but I doubt they would be so stupid as to rule victory for a side as destructive as Chaos.

Could you imagine what would happen? You go to place an order for say, a battle force of Empire with the Empire Army book only to get a reply saying: "Sorry, but we've phased out the Empire. Didn't you know? They were annihiliated during the recent Storm of Chaos campaign."

Lore disputes are all good, but exercise some semblance of sanity, and don't use campaign outcomes as a gauge to measure 'end performance'. GW has only ever phased out sides and forces which were under performing for them financially, not for any reasons of 'Lore.'

[saltbush]

Do you honestly believe that? Warhammer is one of Games Workshop's biggest money makers, not to mention has a very diverse and rich storyline. Games Workshop may be many things, but I doubt they would be so stupid as to rule victory for a side as destructive as Chaos.

Could you imagine what would happen? You go to place an order for say, a battle force of Empire with the Empire Army book only to get a reply saying: "Sorry, but we've phased out the Empire. Didn't you know? They were annihiliated during the recent Storm of Chaos campaign."

Lore disputes are all good, but exercise some semblance of sanity, and don't use campaign outcomes as a gauge to measure 'end performance'. GW has only ever phased out sides and forces which were under performing for them financially, not for any reasons of 'Lore.'

Yes but storm of Chaos wasn't about the death of the empire, rather the destruction of Middenheim (and Archon's Quest to prove something about Sigmar). The really sad thing about that campaign was the total lack of fight put up by the chaos sides, check out the results and you can see how the Empire really slaughtered Chaos.

I find it interesting that the 3 sides that really did well in SOC (Empire, Dwarf and Greenskin) are now the 3 big sides in the nemises crown. Sure they are going to wipe out a race but lore wise you may loose a city you love or a hero will die.

[Steel*Faith]

Arijharn, I can't help but think your a bit sore about Chaos getting beat by the hands of Empire and Greenskins huh?

I base my opinions off of lore, not real world issues. If you do that's your issue, but i'm not going to argue money issues when it has nothing to do with lore. Not to mention it's delusional to say Chaos isn't the top 3 most popular TT races between WH40k and WHFB.

Unfortunately for Chaos fans, they aren't going to wipe over the world and beat everything like they hope they are.

[Arijharn]

Arijharn, I can't help but think your a bit sore about Chaos getting beat by the hands of Empire and Greenskins huh?


Sore? Doubtful since I don't actually play the game at all anymore due to other commitments and responsibilities. Having said that, it's a very good yarn so I try to keep to keep abreast of changes within.


I base my opinions off of lore, not real world issues. If you do that's your issue, but i'm not going to argue money issues when it has nothing to do with lore. Not to mention it's delusional to say Chaos isn't the top 3 most popular TT races between WH40k and WHFB.


Dont draw offense to what I am typing all I'm saying is try to approach anything GW decides with base in reality.

I never said Chaos isn't one of the 3 most popular races. The strength of their popularity is in all honesty irrelevant, to the extent that maybe it is because that they are popular would make GW less likely to change anything that would unduly influence the status quo. Whether that is going to capture and annihilate Kislev to wiping out the Empire proper.

Basing your decisions off lore is rather noble, but in the end, is rather meaningless. For the same reason you discard Chaos trumping all as a falacy, it seems backwards to then declare the Empire will progress upon it's current state, destroy Chaos once and for all, and become the centre of civilisation for the modern world, or honestly whatever it is that is the Empire's long term goal.


Unfortunately for Chaos fans, they aren't going to wipe over the world and beat everything like they hope they are.

See above.

As other people have stated though, most of the Army books tend to paint themselves as the eventual victors of their wars. The only exception however to this rule does seem to be Chaos for all intents and purposes. They call each invasion a 'test' afterall, and due to the fact that the Chaos gods are defined as being rather capricious, it does lend some sort of credibility when army books (not just Chaos') paint the story that each invasion is much worse than the last.

[Volcano Mentality]

What about your loyalty and glory to the Emperor? Emperor Karl Franz is a powerful, and honorary leader that Empire fans can be proud of. Despite the corruption in government, he stands as a outwardly pious and trustworthy leader of the Empire. I don't see many people talking about him much.

He is an intelligent and open-minded leader, which is rare in Warhammer, and I think he can be attributed to the growth and strength of the Empire currently due to his support to the further development of engineering, his faith in Sigmar, his willingness to trust and make allies to other races (HE, Dwarfs), and his political honesty and sincere devotion to his people.

How many of you plan on spreading the praise of Sigmar and the Emperor as well? How many of you would fight & die protecting him from being taken by the enemy to be humiliated and tortured?
Sigmar is our diety, our god, and so I praise him and fight in his name.

Karl Franz is our emporer, an honorable and just emporer, and he symbolizes all the people of the Empire, and so I fight for him.

My battle cry is: "For the Emporer! For the Empire! For Sigmar!"

[Oasis]

Not for long it wont;)

[Barundin]

No that's not official lore. Official lore if anything seems to give possibilities that each race can potentially "rule" the world or "destroy everything". Skaven potentially could swarm over the entire world, Orcs could create a WAAAGH! so big and powerful it would crush everything, Chaos could unite and bring the downfall of all the races, Sigmar could finally return and lead the Empire to victory to crush all of their enemies and bring world wide peace, ect. Each race seems to have the potential for complete victory, but will it happen? That's more of a belief than a fact.

The facts are, to me anyways, is the struggle is never ending, despite what Chaos believes, or Greenskins, and so on. What can happen though is each race can become the dominant force in the world for various lengths of time, just as Chaos was at the beginning, then the Elves, and the Dwarfs, then the Empire and so on.

I think Warhammer is unpredictable, and the people who think Chaos will rule all one day, and forever bring a reign of Chaos are fooling themselves. I'm sure they thought that in the most recent massive Storm of Chaos, but what happened an? The seemingly unstoppable storm of Chaos was stopped and sent back to the wastes because of a Greenskin.

Anything can happen, and "faith" in the race you support is all that matters.

QTF.

Besides, give me one quote where it says that the chaos wastes as growing. In the chaos army book it says that they are growing and shrinking without any real pattern.

And for you who don't know that much about Warhammer lore, Chaos was MUCH stronger before, yet the elves and dwarfes drove those filthy things back to the poles where they now must plot. Warhammer is unpredictable indeed, and just as the almighty Dwarfen Empire was broken by earthquakes, other races can be broken aswell. Just cause one race is losing power now doesn't mean that it'll continue that way.

No, to many people are trying to bend the fluff into a much darker image than it is.

[Kazek Ironfist]

QTF.

Besides, give me one quote where it says that the chaos wastes as growing. In the chaos army book it says that they are growing and shrinking without any real pattern.

And for you who don't know that much about Warhammer lore, Chaos was MUCH stronger before, yet the elves and dwarfes drove those filthy things back to the poles where they now must plot. Warhammer is unpredictable indeed, and just as the almighty Dwarfen Empire was broken by earthquakes, other races can be broken aswell. Just cause one race is losing power now doesn't mean that it'll continue that way.

No, to many people are trying to bend the fluff into a much darker image than it is.
You then my friend are quite optimistic. It is obvious that Chaos is growing stronger. Read more Warhammer books, because it is obvious you are ignorant of that fact. In Gotrek and Felix for example, in the 5th book when Praag is under siege they state a few times that each chaos wave gets stronger and harder to push back, and that each time chaos is pushed back the Wastes push just a little more southward.
It is obvious that Chaos will win, the Elves and Dwarves held off Chaos at the height of their power, and now both races are much weaker and steadily growing even more so. The glory of the elves is vanishing into the sea, the pride of the dwarves is crumbling apart. The Empire is steadily growing more and more under the influence of Chaos. More and more mutants appear, more and more cults spring up. Every time a cult is destroyed more simply take it's place. The world of Warhammer is not a positive world, it is a world that is slowly sinking, with those inside doing all they can to hold on to the top. It is the same in both Warhammer worlds, the Crusades grow stronger, and take a higher death toll each time they come, and each time they come it grows harder to push them back to the Eye, they still haven't pushed back Chaos from the 13th Crusade.

'Another day nearer the battle
So drink up, lads and look brave.
For another day nearer the battle
Is another day nearer the grave.'

Imperial Guard drinking song

[Barundin]

You then my friend are quite optimistic. It is obvious that Chaos is growing stronger. Read more Warhammer books, because it is obvious you are ignorant of that fact. In Gotrek and Felix for example, in the 5th book when Praag is under siege they state a few times that each chaos wave gets stronger and harder to push back, and that each time chaos is pushed back the Wastes push just a little more southward.
It is obvious that Chaos will win, the Elves and Dwarves held off Chaos at the height of their power, and now both races are much weaker and steadily growing even more so. The glory of the elves is vanishing into the sea, the pride of the dwarves is crumbling apart. The Empire is steadily growing more and more under the influence of Chaos. More and more mutants appear, more and more cults spring up. Every time a cult is destroyed more simply take it's place. The world of Warhammer is not a positive world, it is a world that is slowly sinking, with those inside doing all they can to hold on to the top. It is the same in both Warhammer worlds, the Crusades grow stronger, and take a higher death toll each time they come, and each time they come it grows harder to push them back to the Eye, they still haven't pushed back Chaos from the 13th Crusade.

'Another day nearer the battle
So drink up, lads and look brave.
For another day nearer the battle
Is another day nearer the grave.'

Imperial Guard drinking song

Bah, just cause Kislev is dying doesn't mean that the rest of the world has to follow it. Besides, as I said, the tables can turn pretty quickly. Just look at: Sigmar, Sotek, Aenarion etc. All of these heroes more or less came to their race when it was being destroyed with no real hope whatsoever.

Chaos won't rule supreme as long as their gods are stupids, not bothering to tell their champion that an angry Orc Warboss is sneaking up behind him, after having massacred his entire bodyguard.

Or meh, the Old ones will just come back and destroy Chaos anyway, we all know that. Lord Kroak can't be wrong ;)

[Kazek Ironfist]

Bah, just cause Kislev is dying doesn't mean that the rest of the world has to follow it. Besides, as I said, the tables can turn pretty quickly. Just look at: Sigmar, Sotek, Aenarion etc. All of these heroes more or less came to their race when it was being destroyed with no real hope whatsoever.

Chaos won't rule supreme as long as their gods are stupids, not bothering to tell their champion that an angry Orc Warboss is sneaking up behind him, after having massacred his entire bodyguard.

Or meh, the Old ones will just come back and destroy Chaos anyway, we all know that. Lord Kroak can't be wrong ;)

Eh, they just were too busy laughing their asses off as he got trumped by an orc.

Sigmar may have arrived when he was needed, but you can only have so many deus ex machina before it just gets stupid. The Slann are getting weaker, Teclis can't live forever, nor can Karl Franz. The world gets weaker and chaos gets stronger slow though that may be. Each wave is stronger, and when Kislev falls then it is only a matter of time till the Empire shares that fate, because Kislev has shielded the Empire for centuries, and without that shield it will be fairly ripe for the plucking.

[Pugslah]

Empire needs space marines.

Chaos gets the Thousand Son Lookalikes (Chosens tier4)


"Our end is come. But what an end! We have been given the most precious gift: a chance to roar our defiance into the foes that overwhelms us with their numbers. Let the Emperor himself hear our final battle cry! Forward warriors of the Guard, and die like the heroes that you are!"

---Last speech of Colour Sargeant Kint, before the annhilation of the Braxian 9th

I wish the Empire was as cool as the Imperium.

[Kazek Ironfist]

Ah, nice quote.

"You are not free whose liberty is won by the rigour of other, more righteous souls. Your are merely protected. Your freedom is parasitic, you suck the honourable man dry and offer nothing in return. You who have enjoyed freedom, who have done nothing to earn it, your time has come. This time you will stand alone and fight for yourselves. Now you will pay for your freedom in the currency of honest toil and human blood."

- Inquisitor Czevak Address to the Council of Ryanti