A bet.

[Oak]

As more information trickles out of Mythic from the Games Days that they attend the more certain everyone becomes with the mechanics of the game, and the intricacies of the classes. The Zealot class is something I've been trying to keep up to date on as best as I possibly can, and with the new info regarding the spells that the Zealot currently has - I'm willing to make a bet.

There has been a lot of talk on the Forum about the Zealot being a "melee/support" character - an idea that I'm opposed to, and honestly, a concept that would have ruined the Zealot for me personally. I'm a fan of ranged DPS/support... SO! Here's the bet:

If the Zealot turns out to be a melee/support/healer, rather than a ranged/support/healer - I'll eat my mouse, tape it, and post it this forum. Laser, cord, UBS plug, the lot.

[SwaY]

As more information trickles out of Mythic from the Games Days that they attend the more certain everyone becomes with the mechanics of the game, and the intricacies of the classes. The Zealot class is something I've been trying to keep up to date on as best as I possibly can, and with the new info regarding the spells that the Zealot currently has - I'm willing to make a bet.

There has been a lot of talk on the Forum about the Zealot being a "melee/support" character - an idea that I'm opposed to, and honestly, a concept that would have ruined the Zealot for me personally. I'm a fan of ranged DPS/support... SO! Here's the bet:

If the Zealot turns out to be a melee/support/healer, rather than a ranged/support/healer - I'll eat my mouse, tape it, and post it this forum. Laser, cord, UBS plug, the lot.


Your on my friend. ;)

[versuvius]

aye, i will hold you to that bet

[Oak]

I mean it too. It's a G5 - it'd want to taste good for $125.

[Chilltouch]

You're on.

[Tyrannis]

I mean it too. It's a G5 - it'd want to taste good for $125.

I feel sorry for your wallet, but I'm going to take you up on that bet :D

[Makaisson]

Your on my friend. ;)

Quick! Quick! Get off his friend! :o

[Obey_The_Crab]

Hey guys! If this will be a proper bet it means that if you lose, you'll be the ones chewing on your mouses with some fava beans and a nice Chianti.
Just a thought...

[SwaY]

Quick! Quick! Get off his friend! :o

Haha fair do's made me laugh :P

[Caldenfor]

I was just curious about that.. I mean.. say Oak is right... gonna be a ton of people eating their mice(mouses? aaahhh). I will go the safe route and remain indifferent and my best regards to the poor doctors pulling mouse parts out of people.

Caldenfor

[Aeonus]

It's a plot by the empire to reduce the zealot population as they won't play due to asphyxiation or no mouse.

[Kulgur]

He's lightly armoured, it would surprise me greatly if it wasn't a ranged class

[Fusko]

So uh, what happens if the class is a little bit of both. 50% ranged, 50% melee? What then?

[Wyrmtongue]

He has to eat one of the buttons and half the cord

[Gemini]

Oh, you are so on. I just don't see why they would give them daggers if they weren't melee. However, I am suspicious that you know something we don't know.

[Nunizillion]

I would like to see this, but at the same time, a small part of me is concerned for your safty and health. however, these are the chaos boards ::steps on concious:: there! much better!
The way I see it (purly speculative) the zelot seems to be a medium to short ranged offensive caster with some healing too. the dagger seems to be there more for "By Tzeentch's Multi-colored beak! theres something in my face! time to stabity stab stab!" :p

[Maim]

So if the zealot isn't a magus you're doing what?

[AlienOverlord]

If the Zealot turns out to be a melee/support/healer, rather than a ranged/support/healer - I'll eat my mouse, tape it, and post it this forum. Laser, cord, UBS plug, the lot.Make sure to Youtube it :)

[Kulgur]

Oh, you are so on. I just don't see why they would give them daggers if they weren't melee.

Warlocks in that other game had daggers to start too, they fit with the human sacrifice motif

[Gemini]

Since when do zealots make human sacrifices? I mean, I fully admit I missed/forgot something about that, but I don't remember reading or hearing anything about it.

[someguysteve]

I think the zealot design video they call it a sacrifical knife and it would explain where they get their skulls from. I don't think anything like that will be in the game, probably just fluff behind the guy. Where other magic users don't seem to need to rely on anything other than themselves the zealot works in symbols, rituals, and potions so human sacrifice isn't a huge stretch and hell, hes chaos, you'd probably have a hard time keeping them from performing human sacrifices.

[Commentaris]

the zealot's got a dagger. he got dagger attack styles. leading me to think he will be a melee chaarcter to an extent.

yet, from the current ability lists there only 1 ability vaguely melee related. all the others are ranged attack/debuffs/buffs.

i'm so confused about this class.....tzeentch stop toying with us!

[Oak]

I can beat a dudes skull in with a staff too - doesn't mean that the Magus is a melee DPS class.

Dagger is fluff, I'm almost sure of it. So sure, in fact, I'm willing to eat my G5.

[Belatucadros]

Oh, you are so on. I just don't see why they would give them daggers if they weren't melee. However, I am suspicious that you know something we don't know.

Well, runepriest doesn't use his staff in melee if he can avoid it.

Anyway - at level 3 it played more like ranged/support than melee/support. I was primarily using my DD to nuke mobs down, with the odd bit of melee if it got to me.

This may be a function of the low level DD being too powerful, low level melee being too weak I don't know.

Looking at the spell list they sure smell like a ranged caster to me, compared to say what the warrior priest currently has in game.

I never fully understood the marks of chaos portion of the class, really have no clue how that works, not sure how it will effect things.

[Gorlak]

G5! are you mad ! it's a piece of art not just some mouse! I can send you my old mouse though...

[Crusader]

I personally would have chosen an object that was at least edible and wouldn't do irreversible damage to by bowels, but hey....

[Chronus]

Essentially unarmored, in heavy robes and other ritual vestments and regalia

Zealot's armor described by Mythic.Unless they enhance Zealot's armor with heavy protection buffs,I can't see how a Zealot will compete against enemy melee opponents.

Chronus

[Belatucadros]

Essentially unarmored, in heavy robes and other ritual vestments and regalia

Zealot's armor described by Mythic.Unless they enhance Zealot's armor with heavy protection buffs,I can't see how a Zealot will compete against enemy melee opponents.

Chronus



Did you read on? Because the part where they're not a pushover seemed a lot like buffs to me

[Chronus]

Did you read on? Because the part where they're not a pushover seemed a lot like buffs to me

That's what I mean.Since Zealots won't have abilities that will protect them from physical,how can an almost unarmored person survive from a melee combat?

Chronus.

[Belatucadros]

Same way it works in DAOC: Armour/absorb buffs.

Two cloth wearing melee in DAOC are pertty scary ;)

[Gemini]

That's what I mean.Since Zealots won't have abilities that will protect them from physical,how can an almost unarmored person survive from a melee combat?

Chronus.

Wait, wait, when was it ever said zealot's won't have abilities that will protect them?

[Kiminara]

yes, the zealot has a dagger, but that doesn't mean he has to be up close and personal with the enemy. I'm someone who doesn't like comparing WoW and WAR.....but in WoW, there are caster daggers. Just saying, that WAR might have them too. and if there are, it'd be the zealot that has it

[Avatar_Anonymous]

Why,why,why,why,why,why,why,why,why,why......

... Are people trying to get zealots into ANOTHER spell dps/healing class we already have 2 of them not to mention the elves, and if you think they wont be one i'm surprised you can operate a computer!

Leave zealots/warrior priest alone they are classes of their own if you want a healing class WITH SPELL DPS theirs runepriest, shamans, and elves ofcourse. If your liking these guys just cause the "Dark factor" well consider dark elves, which i'm 100percent postive will be a spell damage dealer and healing class.

[Zeehro]

You got a deal!

[Prophet]

Why,why,why,why,why,why,why,why,why,why......

... Are people trying to get zealots into ANOTHER spell dps/healing class we already have 2 of them not to mention the elves, and if you think they wont be one i'm surprised you can operate a computer!

Leave zealots/warrior priest alone they are classes of their own if you want a healing class WITH SPELL DPS theirs runepriest, shamans, and elves ofcourse. If your liking these guys just cause the "Dark factor" well consider dark elves, which i'm 100percent postive will be a spell damage dealer and healing class.

Last I checked I am pretty sure that rune priests were a class that are heavily buffed and are "Well armored in medium, rune-inscribed armor" that basically go and buff their weapons for more striking ability, they even said that the rune priest could be "entering the thick of the fight with rune staff in hand" they may have one or two ranged attacks but they seem to be primarily melee to me.

The highelves are almost certain to have a ranged healer, but the dark elves are another matter, as far as I know the dark elves do not really have that many healing abilities so Mythic is going to have add healing spells to pre existing class or make a new class altogether, while this probably will be a ranged class we do not know for sure.

[ODDBALL]

heretic's got that dagger. Betting he will be melee.

[Noli me Tangere]

I don't approve of betting, gambling, and all that. I do have a general hope that the Zealot isn't purely restricted to melee as it seems quite lightly armored by the description. I think I'd rather a ranged dps/support/healer type as the zealot's archetype.

However, that's just a hope, and the real reason for that is that unlike the Warrior Priest the mechanics on the zealot seem very sketchy. From the description I have a very uneasy feeling of how what they talk about works. Still, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt with the melee thing despite my preference.

[Raiden]

Zealot is a HEALER/CASTER. I thought someone had already posted it here, but since no one did, i'll do. Here's a quote from another forum, from some other guy:


I finally learned how the Zealot harbinger system works as well. You begin by casting a Ritual. When you activate the skill, it attaches a huge ground target reticle that follows your cursor around. When you click, you begin casting the ritual (2 second cast time or so) and a huge mark is engraved into the ground at the selected spot. The ritual circle is HUGE. You can then summon the Harbinger (another 2 second cast time or so). Any enemy inside the ritual circle when the Harbinger is summoned is then debuffed by the effect of that ritual and your group is empowered accordingly. It looked like the Summon Harbinger skill could be used several times... not 100% sure if the effects can stack on the same enemies over and over or not... The ritual circle lasts for 60 seconds before fading away. Overall, it looks like a great set of skills for large-scale battles.


And another quote:


The enemy will come to you and once it gets to the ground target it will become debuffed. You can see the debuffs on the enemy right under its box in upper right next to your characters buffs. I believe their was a count down timer on the debuff icons too. Either that or the amount it was debuffing but think it was timer. Then I would start using my other spells. One was the insta dot, then a dmg/debuff nuke, and then the basic nuke. after debuffs only took like 3 or 4 of these spells to kill. Also there was a weak heal which came in handy to handle two mobs at once, though it took like 4 heals until i was able to start nuking again.


So, no mouse eating for today. Cheers!

PS: these info comes from a guy that played at origins. That's true as long as he wasn't lying.

[Gemini]

We're quite aware hes a healer/caster, thank you very much. So is the warrior priest, and guess what? He's melee, not ranged. It's very possible to be a melee caster.

[Oak]

Oh, you are so on. I just don't see why they would give them daggers if they weren't melee. However, I am suspicious that you know something we don't know.

We're quite aware hes a healer/caster, thank you very much. So is the warrior priest, and guess what? He's melee, not ranged. It's very possible to be a melee caster.

Don't you try and back out of this now, Gemini - I'm still ready to dine on my G5 for this.

[Gemini]

Although I have begun to think he might be ranged, I am in no way backing out of anything. I don't really even know how you got that, I just explained to someone how its entirely possible they could be melee...

Also, since no part of my bet involves stuffing my craptacular generic mouse in my mouth, there is absolutely no reason for me to back out of it. If I lose, I admit I was wrong. If I back out, I admit I was wrong. So... I'm in it for the long haul.

[silex]

PS: these info comes from a guy that played at origins. That's true as long as he wasn't lying.No, I was not lying ;)



From what I saw of the Zealot at Origins (about an hour of PvE time up to level 3), it played much like your standard MMO ranged healer. The two big differences were
1) the whole ritual system
2) they actually had worthwhile nuke damage

Back to the discussion here, I don't really understand why a dagger would indicate that the Zealot is a melee class. MMORPG ranged classes almost always carry a primary melee weapon around with them. For example, casters pretty much always carry either staves or daggers and healers almost always have a gimpy sword or club that they lug around.

[Gemini]

Heeeyyyy Oaaaakkkkyyy, where are ya? Ya seen this months podcast? And close combat support, like the Warrior Priest and the Zealot.

Would ya like some salt and pepper for your mouse?

[Nemes1s]

Heeeyyyy Oaaaakkkkyyy, where are ya? Ya seen this months podcast?

Would ya like some salt and pepper for your mouse?
The lead career designer says otherwise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peC24LHVick

[Crazy ol' dude]

The lead career designer says otherwise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peC24LHVickAnd the problem is that he said it kinda long ago, newest podcast is, well, more actual. However i do think it contains a bit of misinfo about zealot tho, but we can't be sure on this until release i guess.
Thing is that Zealot was kind of created from basics by Mythic and GW, so Mythic have free choice as to make them close combat caster, ranged caster or melee, because there're no strict lore boundaries for the zealot (as in - they can't make WP ranged, because lorewise they're hammering things etc.)
Maybe they're experimenting with different versions of zealot gameplay, who knows...
I'll stay with my statement that Zealot will turn out to be ranged with maybe Rituals/Habinger cast range reduced.

[Perp]

And the problem is that he said it kinda long ago, newest podcast is, well, more actual. However i do think it contains a bit of misinfo about zealot tho, but we can't be sure on this until release i guess.
Thing is that Zealot was kind of created from basics by Mythic and GW, so Mythic have free choice as to make them close combat caster, ranged caster or melee, because there're no strict lore boundaries for the zealot (as in - they can't make WP ranged, because lorewise they're hammering things etc.)
Maybe they're experimenting with different versions of zealot gameplay, who knows...
I'll stay with my statement that Zealot will turn out to be ranged with maybe Rituals/Habinger cast range reduced.

Ditto.

I think that podcast (voice portion) was filmed long ago with new graphics added in to show the currently released info. Notice they didn't mention ANY classes except for the 4 healers classes who have been named for quite some time. At one point they probably did consider taking the zealot downt the melee/healer road but they didn't.

[aretaloger]

Raelimar from Only-WAR.com had a chance to play the game extensively at PAX. From http://only-war.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16144&start=0:

Zealot - Hands down, my favorite class not just in this game, but in any MMO from UO to date. We've all heard Mythic talk about how casters will be able to hold their own in melee, and I'm sure that like me, you've smiled politely while thinking to yourself "BS." However, 5 minutes into playing my level 21 Zealot, I had an epiphany - they're not just capable of holding their own in melee. They're bloody freaking good at it. I'm not talking about taking hits on the chin, ripping your opponents to shreds. That's far too simplistic. Zealots, on the other hand, are one of the most beautifully innovative and complex careers in recent memory. The Harbinger I was most fond of reduces all damage done by a whopping 25%. After that, I'd put down a ritual which debuffed opponents considerably. Predictably, a melee class would charge at me, and get hit with a debuff the second they entered the ritual circle. My own buff, a Mark of Chaos, boosts my fighting skills by a good amount. The speed with which I was able to drop enemies with auto-attack after my debuffs, buffs, and DoTs were stacked was pretty surprising. I barely even needed to heal. There were also some very powerful nukes (my eyes popped out of my skull when I saw the numbers on the Tier 3 morale ability for the zealot, I can't remember what it was called, but goddamn that thing was amazing), most of them in the Morale section. It's not that the Zealot is any better at melee combat than any other caster, but didn’t seem nearly as prone to interrupts. As of now, it's definitely my career of choice - hopefully Black Guard will be up to the task of luring me away once I get to try them out. If they end up being as cool as the Zealot, there's a good chance I'll be playing this game for years to come.From a later posting in his write up of his experiences (http://only-war.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16291), he adds:

As for the Zealot, it’s another aggressive caster, but you rely more on buffs and debuffs, rather than the huge nukes and heals of the Shaman. Some people have been calling me out on describing the Zealot as a close combat career rather than a Ranged healer; all I’m going to say is…I’ve played the career, and according to the podcast description, Mythic’s own description of the career, and the answers I got at PAX, the Zealot is indeed a close combat aggressive support class. If that’s not good enough for you and you still insist on calling it a ranged healer, well…I don’t know what you want. If you try to cast your rituals at long range, people will simply run out of the circle. It’s as simple as that, and if you play without rituals, you’re seriously gimping yourself. The Runepriest has a lot of skills that seem to mirror the Zealot’s, but in a more defensive fashion. When I played one, I tried standing in the back and doing the “heal, heal, heal” thing, and it didn’t work too well. I tried a different approach with the Zealot, and it paid off, so that’s what I’m going to go with at release. Simply put, damage/healing players will contribute significantly more than a player who strictly heals, in my opinion. It’s fantastic.I don't know if it's fair to call the Zealot a melee class, since it's clearly not pure melee, but it seems pretty apparent that it's not a ranged healer. If that's what you're looking for, I think you'll need to choose another class.

[Crazy ol' dude]

Raelimar from Only-WAR.com had a chance to play the game extensively at PAX. From http://only-war.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16144&start=0:

From a later posting in his write up of his experiences (http://only-war.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16291), he adds:

I don't know if it's fair to call the Zealot a melee class, since it's clearly not pure melee, but it seems pretty apparent that it's not a ranged healer. If that's what you're looking for, I think you'll need to choose another class.
Question: how do you understand "ranged healer"? because obviously not as i do
Now prepare for wall of text.

I'll quote myself here again:
BW waaagh vid, zealot charges, does a few swings which do almost no damage to the BW and dies shortly after, so i assume his unbuffed melee dps is kinda not devastating.
About Raelimar's impressions from PAX -> what he did was applying melee buff on himself(which was most likely meant for melee careers), armor reducing ritual (i guess), dotted, apllied single-target 1minute -25% damage debuff (read on Impending Doom spell), and toggled auto-attack. And then wrote that Zealot can hold his own in melee. And that's right, but:
To me it's something like a runepriest buffing himself with some heavy +armor and +damage etc. buffs and going auto-attacking aswell. Yes, he probably can do this, but that's just..not the way it should be done ;p

I know zealots have been stated as close combat support in archetype podcast, but judging from recent RvR vids and waaagh career discussion, all of his spells have 65-100ft range (so there's no need to him to go in melee range), he got 2 protection spells from melee (breakable on damage 7 sec root and morale ability which absorbs melee damage) and also looking at Leipzig zealot vid. at some point the zealot is rushed by a hammerer and gets pretty much slaughtered so i assume zealot's t4 set armor value and his toughness is not really high. :wink:

They could have changed spells range already and gave him more melee abilities than auto-attack and "swing"(aswell as protection ones), but i haven't found any proof of it yet, maybe except that archetype podcast.

Or maybe zealot has so innovative close combat/spellcasting gameplay that it only exist in beta atm and they don't want to reveal it yet, so on the shows we only see his simpified ranged version? Or they're still tweaking it, so there's no point in releasing info and some serious answer for us atm?
After all it's kinda Mythic's career, so they have free choice(to some extent) on how they want zealot to work and are changing their plans very often to see what would fit the best.

If you would like to discuss/post some serious info on this matter then please go here (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?p=453788#post453788)
Also: Gc Leipzig vid. (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17045) ; Waaagh vid (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16314) ; BW vid. (http://games.internode.on.net/filelist.php?filedetails=10465) ; Zealot abilities from recent rvr videos (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=434671&postcount=35) Besides, zealot have made the way from combat spellcaster to melee, then people who played at conventions said he's ranged, lead career designer at waaagh said he's ranged also and now he's close combat again according to podcast. That means that can change quite a lot before release.
But again, unless rituals cast range got reduced, there's no need for zealot to go in close combat range to place the debuff.

Raelimar said Zealot has to be in his own ritual area so people who charge at him get debuffed, right? and if it is not the enemy can easily move out of the area, right?
That's true...but for small fight, i agree...but that's not neccessary when you have good tanks on your side and a battle is going on. According to RvR videos rituals have 65ft cast range, that means you can cast that ritual on the place where the melee vs. melee battle is. Enemy melees won't go out of it's area because they're busy fighting with your melee allies, and even if someone notices you, it's magus/tank job to keep them there (snares, maybe even aoe snares), and also when they start trying to get to you -> it's perfect time for your allied melee DPS to use theirs positional attacks i imagine. And even if they get there, you can just recast that ritual on the ground where you're standing. So IMO there's no need for you to "go in there", unless rituals cast range got reduced.

Also as i said, according to RvR vid. from Leipzig zealot can be slaughtered by a non-debuffed melee (notice that Impending Doom spell - -25% damage debuff - can only be used on one target at the time btw.), so in coordinated battles i imagine zealot being charged by more than 1 melee to take him down fast, so Raelimar's tactic isn't going to work well assuming that Zealot is as squishy against melee-without-impending-doom-on-him as he was during Leipzig. And i also imagine that big, coordinated fights will be a great part of WAR.
So going close combat especcially when there're Witch Hunters around is kind of a suicide for the zealot, unless of course he gets more protection against melee and/or simply be forced to it by reducing his spells' range.

Now, for me "standing at the back" means that someone is staying behind his tanks, far away from enemies' melee range and NOT being as far away from the battle as possible, spamming heals or something. "Ranged healer" (or rather "ranged support") means to me someone who can cast most of his spells while "standing at the back". And as far as i know, even considering Raelimar's impressions, i'll stay with my statement that zealot will at the end turn out to be mainly ranged, with maybe ritual/harbinger cast range reduced (something like RP's Master Runes).

I guess we have no other choice as to wait until release or at least reveal of official spell list to be sure.

Anyway, Raelimar said (as far as i know) that he'll be opening a thread kind of Q&A with him, so i'll ask him about few details to be sure as in what direction is Zealot currently going ;)

In short - yes, you maybe can play zealot as close combat, and in some situation you'll have to, but imo he'll do best being at range, where he can do his job away from any melee who will try to interrupt him (he's caster after all ;p)
I think that podcast (voice portion) was filmed long ago with new graphics added in to show the currently released info. Notice they didn't mention ANY classes except for the 4 healers classes who have been named for quite some time.Seems like it to me too

And just one more thing - zealot's gameplay style have been changed many times already, so i'd say that no all developers, especcially those who are not a part of career team nor interested in zealot or something, could be aware about actual state of his gameplay...
I personally believe Adam Geshowitz the most as he is lead career designer :)

[minotauro]

the more I read these forums, the more I become aware people will believe whatever they want to believe, whether it be based on reality or not. to quote a mythbuster "I reject your reality, and substitute one of my own." At this point in time Zealot is not a melee healer, get over it folks.

[Fusko]

Jeez, I haven't seen this thread in forever. I was really hoping he was gonna eat it too... :(

[Gemini]

the more I read these forums, the more I become aware people will believe whatever they want to believe, whether it be based on reality or not. to quote a mythbuster "I reject your reality, and substitute one of my own." At this point in time Zealot is not a melee healer, get over it folks.

This thread was made when it was not clear at all if the Zealot was melee or ranged. I made the mistake of jumping to conclusions from that podcast where the Zealot was called close combat, I assumed it meant melee. Silly me. There was no reason for you to revive it again though.

[minotauro]

my mistake, I didn't check the date of the last post, before I posted. :(