Warrior Priests -- A Concern

[Beren]

Is anyone else worried about the potential survivability advantage that Warrior Priests seem to have over all the other announced healers? They are essentially a melee class with "moderate" armor while the others are basically unarmored mages.

I know it is a bit early, perhaps, to be fretting, but this has been a recurring thought of mine for some time now. I also understand that being "melee" puts them closer to the action but at the same time they're likely to avoid the scrutiny of other, squishier classes.

[sohryu]

I doubt their damage capablility can match that of the goblin shaman, and the zealots probably have very effective debuffs that render the enemy group useless for a short time.

[Commentaris]

warrior priest wears some pieces of plate, not a full set

runepriest wears some medium armour + defensive runes (assumption)

shaman and zealot wear practically paper armour, but the zealot will have debuffs running for a bit of extra protection.

as with alot of careers, the Order seems to be a bit more defensive and Destruction seems a little more offensive. the shaman and zealot look to pack more punch than their Order counterparts.

[Autolykos]

A warrior priest also will not be a very effective healer unless he is in the thick of it. The other "healer" (and I use the term loosely) classes have the option to stand back and heal from a safer position (I assume).

[Beren]

People are deluding themselves if they don't think there are "healers" in this game, and that healing won't play a major role in combat. Most of the PvP vids so far demonstrate that sans healing most charaters die on the scale of a few seconds. It's nice of Mythic to want to provide "healers" with viable damage, but it will never match the output of other classes and healing/buffs will be their most valuable contribution to the group. I'm not sure that the "do damage to heal damage" dynamic is going to pan out all that well either, but at least they're trying something new.

[Rotgut_Eadsmasha]

This fellow played a Shaman at a GamesDay and did quite a good job at it.

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11813

Looks like the dynamic is comming along nicely.

[Duvall]

A warrior priest also will not be a very effective healer unless he is in the thick of it. The other "healer" (and I use the term loosely) classes have the option to stand back and heal from a safer position (I assume).

In the other healers cases, as with almost all MMO's, range is king.

I am just wondering if there caster/healer hybrids are going to be hella good. You cant kill something that you can't reach.

So is it going to be Nuke..Nuke..heal..Nuke..Nuke?

[Elgareth]

I am just wondering if there caster/healer hybrids are going to be hella good. You cant kill something that you can't reach.

So is it going to be Nuke..Nuke..heal..Nuke..Nuke?

Ranged classes will have skills to keep the enemy away from them (Web Grenade from Engineer, for example).
Melee classes will have skills to keep the enemy near them ('eadbut from Black Orcs, for example).
It'll be a game of give and take.

But I rather see the Warrior Priest in quite a Problem:
He NEEDS to be near the enemies. So enemy melee AND range chars will bash on him, while the other healers can stand back a good bit, to keep out of melee range, so they only have to deal with ranged attackers.

[rheinberger]

as with alot of careers, the Order seems to be a bit more defensive and Destruction seems a little more offensive. the shaman and zealot look to pack more punch than their Order counterparts.

hoping it's not like this. differences this fundamental always result in huge problems later in the gameplay unless it is clearly stated that "choosing this side you will be more defensive for the rest of your life"

[Morden]

People are deluding themselves if they don't think there are "healers" in this game, and that healing won't play a major role in combat. Most of the PvP vids so far demonstrate that sans healing most charaters die on the scale of a few seconds. It's nice of Mythic to want to provide "healers" with viable damage, but it will never match the output of other classes and healing/buffs will be their most valuable contribution to the group. I'm not sure that the "do damage to heal damage" dynamic is going to pan out all that well either, but at least they're trying something new.

Actually, that mentality is going to go away. You have to do damage in order to be effective at healing. If you just heal, you will gimp yourself. It's detrimental. So anyone demanding that the healer/dps classes heal primarily is going to have to understand that the healer is going to have to do damage in order to participate properly.

Someone who recently was at a Games Day played a Shaman. Their write-up is here:
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11813

And the mechanics are as follows:


The shaman class is nothing close to a medic. We were set up with level 40 players to RvR with, as i charged into combat. The first thing i noticed, was the healing spells took really long, up to 5 seconds long... i was confused, as they did not really heal a great amount, and thats pretty long when someone is getting beaten on. So i decided to start to pew pew with my spells. Doing massive damage, i crushed stunties as they charged at me, using an ability which knocked me and them back if they got too close, to get far away of course. After casting multiple spells and destryoing my foes, my healing spells on the action bar began to grow green... wtf i wondered, so i clicked myself, and started to heal. The heal took pretty much one second. The same heal that previously took 5 seconds, now took 1 second... i was amazed.

After learning this, i charged into combat, pew pewing, and then throwing in a heal when i had enough waagh! it felt so good. It was not like just sitting back and healing, this felt like you were destroying your enemies, and keeping everyone alive effectively, without focusing on it.

What this pretty much meant was, i could do tons of damage, and then throw a quick 1 second heal that would heal a very big chunk of a falling allies life.

I'm going to be playing a support class, and if you want me to heal, you'll have to let me do damage. Sounds absolutely great.

On-topic, the warrior priest probably gets the armor because he exudes the auras and has to be in melee range to do damage. Having to be right up front as opposed to at ranged to do damage to heal pretty much might make it necessary to give them a little armor boost.

So far, Games Day reports say that Runepriests are incredible right now, so I wonder if the Warrior Priest is the one people need to be worried about.

[Elgareth]

hoping it's not like this. differences this fundamental always result in huge problems later in the gameplay unless it is clearly stated that "choosing this side you will be more defensive for the rest of your life"

Well the devs actually clearly stated:
"Runepriests fit well in the defensive Attitude of the Dwarfs. Dwarfs are more about holding a position, or luring the enemy into a prepared ambush, while the Greenskins are VERY offensive oriented, with all out attacks being their preferable tactic."

But we'll have to sit and see, I suppose. But when comparing Dwarf and Greenskin classes, some general attitude does become apparent:
Ironbreaker: Endure. As you and your Teammates take hits, you become stronger.
Black Orc: Smash all you got against the enemy immediately, with Combos, Stuns, and all sort of attacks.

Runepriest: Buff up your Mates, maybe place a runic Circle on the Ground to further increase your Group's performance.
Shaman: Head into battle, flinging all sort of evil Magic around to collect Waaagh!-Energy, in order to Heal afterwards, should it be needed.

Engineer: Place Turrets on the Ground, fire at the enemy from range to make him come near, then Immobilize him and throw Grenades and stuff at him.
Squig Herder: Smash into Battle in your Squig Battle Armor, wreak some havoc until the Squig spits you out, then let the Squig do his work while you stand back and fire.

Hammerers and Choppas don't interest me that much, so I'll just say: They look pretty similar to me.

Dwarfs seem to be more Ground-oriented and rather...well immobile once all their stuff is set up. While the Greenskins seem to have more mobile, assault-like abilities.

But we'll see how it'll play out.

[Vegetta]

People are deluding themselves if they don't think there are "healers" in this game, and that healing won't play a major role in combat. Most of the PvP vids so far demonstrate that sans healing most charaters die on the scale of a few seconds. It's nice of Mythic to want to provide "healers" with viable damage, but it will never match the output of other classes and healing/buffs will be their most valuable contribution to the group. I'm not sure that the "do damage to heal damage" dynamic is going to pan out all that well either, but at least they're trying something new.

I think its a great idea - remember it seems like all classes will have some kind of limited heal so this coudl also lessen the dependancy on stand alone healers a bit more..

[Elgareth]

I think its a great idea - remember it seems like all classes will have some kind of limited heal so this coudl also lessen the dependancy on stand alone healers a bit more..

I don't like it. At all.
I'll feel "forced to do damage" in order to heal. Something I don't want to do. I want to Support and Heal my Team. Leave DPS to the Damage-Dealers, Tanking abilities to the Tanks, and give us Supporters our Support and Heals, and we're happy.
(I, at least :( )

[Remnant]

hmm, if they're rooting the dwarves to one spot like that, hopefully their defenses will be relatively more powerful.

One of the problems with TGTSNBN is that you can't play defense effectively anymore. Playing defense means you have to sit there and react in that game, while your opponent smacks you around, and hope they run out of steam before you drop, and there's enough of you left to take them down.

[McDwarf]

First time I say that....but....

Trust Mythic, they know what they're doing!!!

[Nicx950]

I don't like it. At all.
I'll feel "forced to do damage" in order to heal. Something I don't want to do. I want to Support and Heal my Team. Leave DPS to the Damage-Dealers, Tanking abilities to the Tanks, and give us Supporters our Support and Heals, and we're happy.
(I, at least :( )

Awww... but why.... :(


Really, I love the new mechanic. Makes sense to me. You might love to just buff people for all eternity and never actually taking a swing at an enemy but I'd rather have some utilities and a bucket o' dmg.

I played a shadow priest in TGTSNBN. In the xp, they got really good. Had a great mixture of dps and support. But eh, the game began to suck when they began focusing on PvE again and grind-fests... so I quit :p (for like the 3rd time)

[Gort]

If you want to stand back and support your team, you probably don't want to play a warrior priest, cause they're melee fighters who build their healing "mana" by fighting in hand-to-hand.

Play one of the other three healers, sounds like they just have standard MMO mana.

I think having the healer be a hand-to-hand fighter in decent armour will be pretty interesting, and it'll make the empire army quite an intimidating sight - no easy-to-kill healers to prioritise, they actually WANT to be in hand-to-hand with you!

[Seldaren]

If you want to stand back and support your team, you probably don't want to play a warrior priest, cause they're melee fighters who build their healing "mana" by fighting in hand-to-hand.

Yeah, if you want more of the Support-role you're better off playing a Runepriest or probably whatever the High Elf Healing-career is.

The WP is very much of a wade into battle and bash heads in sort of guy. No standing back and healing for him.

It adds a bit of variety to how healing is done, IMO. Instead of having all the Healers hanging back and "supporting", some of the Healers will be up front, standing toe-to-toe with the enemy.

If I had to guess, I would almost say the Dark Elf Healing-career will work in a similar way. As that would mean two Ranged and 1 Melee Healing Career for both sides. It'll be balanced, but not identical because of the way things are split across Races and Fronts.

[Evander]

Is anyone else worried about the potential survivability advantage that Warrior Priests seem to have over all the other announced healers? They are essentially a melee class with "moderate" armor while the others are basically unarmored mages.

I know it is a bit early, perhaps, to be fretting, but this has been a recurring thought of mine for some time now. I also understand that being "melee" puts them closer to the action but at the same time they're likely to avoid the scrutiny of other, squishier classes.

I know where these thoughts spawned from...

WAR is not WOW. Warrior Priests are not Paladins. The game will be balanced (Eventualy. I don't know a single MMO that hadn't had balancing problems from ETA)

[Victory]

Is anyone else worried about the potential survivability advantage that Warrior Priests seem to have over all the other announced healers? They are essentially a melee class with "moderate" armor while the others are basically unarmored mages.

I know it is a bit early, perhaps, to be fretting, but this has been a recurring thought of mine for some time now. I also understand that being "melee" puts them closer to the action but at the same time they're likely to avoid the scrutiny of other, squishier classes.


Your concern is pretty much justified, but again for them to do more damage output than a chaos magus or another dps class would be unthinkably stupid.......so you don't worry until it ends up sucking.

[Steel*Faith]

Is anyone else worried about the potential survivability advantage that Warrior Priests seem to have over all the other announced healers? They are essentially a melee class with "moderate" armor while the others are basically unarmored mages.

I know it is a bit early, perhaps, to be fretting, but this has been a recurring thought of mine for some time now. I also understand that being "melee" puts them closer to the action but at the same time they're likely to avoid the scrutiny of other, squishier classes.

Beren, Warrior Priests are going to be in the thick of battle fighting many enemies that can stun and stop them from healing, their job won't be as easy as you make it sound. Healers like shamans will be standing safely in the back, hopefully protected by their tank classes that will let them cast without interruption (if in a good group).

Also some people mentioned that shamans will do more damage than Warrior priests, which is also true. So there will be a balance.

[Avehearth]

First time I say that....but....

Trust Mythic, they know what they're doing!!!

word! :>

whining about classes at the current state of game is rather unnecessary, maybe some classes will suck, maybe some will kick arses, LIKE IN EVERY GAME, but mythic will do their best to balance this as good as possible....
sry but whining about classes just piss me off, I hated this in DAoC, I hated it in WoW and I will hate it even more in WAR :D

[Seldaren]

Beren, Warrior Priests are going to be in the thick of battle fighting many enemies that can stun and stop them from healing, their job won't be as easy as you make it sound

But it also sounds like the WP will have some degree of passive-healing, via auras of some sort. Those are not things that can be stopped via stuns and knockdowns.

Also some people mentioned that shamans will do more damage than Warrior priests, which is also true.

Eh? we don't know this. They are both healer-hybrid classes, so therefore their DPS should be roughly equal. I would imagine their DPS is going to be direclty linked to their Righteous Fury and Waaagh! levels.
But it sounds like the WP will have his damage increased by Fury, but the Shaman's Waaagh! primarly helps with healing.

So I would think that a full Fury-ified WP will out DPS a Shaman.

[Steel*Faith]

But it also sounds like the WP will have some degree of passive-healing, via auras of some sort. Those are not things that can be stopped via stuns and knockdowns.

True, but obviously their most powerful heals will require a casting time or channeling most likely.



Eh? we don't know this. They are both healer-hybrid classes, so therefore their DPS should be roughly equal.

So I would think that a full Fury-ified WP will out DPS a Shaman.

Kinda contradicted yourself there? I fuly "WAAAGH'D" out shaman can do some pretty serious damage then too. Not to mention the shaman can heal himself and his group when he damages enemies, wich is pretty powerful as well.

[Elgareth]

Yeah, if you want more of the Support-role you're better off playing a Runepriest or probably whatever the High Elf Healing-career is.


Errr.... I'll be a Shaman o_O
Not some Pansy Elf, or Standard Human o_O
Runepriest will my second server Twink however.

And Shamans need to do damage in order to heal PROPERLY. YOu _can_ heal without doing damage, but then your heals take ages to cast, and heal only minor wounds.
Just change this mechanic, or heck even create a specialized Support Path, which gives you a minor, quick heal and a bit of Waaagh!, for later, bigger Heals.
Then I'll be happy :-)

The Zealot, too, looks like he needs to Damage/Hurt the Enemy before he can properly heal :(

[Morden]

I don't like it. At all.
I'll feel "forced to do damage" in order to heal. Something I don't want to do. I want to Support and Heal my Team. Leave DPS to the Damage-Dealers, Tanking abilities to the Tanks, and give us Supporters our Support and Heals, and we're happy.
(I, at least :( )

I've seen you talk about this before. This is a fundamental design decision not to have pure support or buffing classes. The minute there is an accommodation towards the traditional "pure healer" role, you will create the expectations you see in other games, where people are expected to heal 100% of the time. Such a thing is just as forceful to people playing support/damage hybrids as forcing people to do damage to heal. People will want to force people to take the "support path" you are talking about, and it will create all sorts of problems.

I like playing the pure support role. I like sitting in the back and healing too. But the negatives of this have turned my stomach and have made support classes less appealing for me to play. The fact that the mechanics themselves will not allow you to passively participate in the battle is great. I'd rather they stick to this rather different design decision instead of trying to accommodate the traditionalists.

This quote from a video interview says it all:


When you're designing games, particularly when you're designing MMO's, you have to pick what your flavor, what your theme is. Ours is a game that's all about war. It's about fighting. It's about survival. It's about picking up a weapon and counting for something.

Therefore when you're looking at the standard ways for putting a design together, there are certain ideas that have to be challenged. If you don't u- if you use that as a central reason for your MMO, then you can't have characters - I suppose you would consider them support characters - characters that are at the back, characters who have passive engagement with the game. We don't have that. Ours is all about aggressive engagement. So we had to look at things like "healing classes" and "buffing classes", and say to ourself "what - how can they play a relevant part in the game world?" We then looked at the Warhammer world, and the history, and they don't really have any concept of passive play. And so, therefore we combined our two necessities. So when we took healing classes, we wanted to make them aggressive - capable of doing damage, capable to stand up for themselves, but also capable of healing. We wanted to make sure that every single person can fight.

And the sort of attitude we took was - a ton of barbarians turned up in your village, and they are going to burn it to the ground and slaughter every one of you. So if you don't want to pick up a weapon, and you don't fight, then you will die. Once we decided that was the core of what we were doing, then all the design flows through that, and it's represented in every class we've done, and it's represented in every race we've done, and it's represented in all the imagery, the scenarios - everything. You will be an active participant.

[Vikingkingq]

Is anyone else worried about the potential survivability advantage that Warrior Priests seem to have over all the other announced healers? They are essentially a melee class with "moderate" armor while the others are basically unarmored mages.

I know it is a bit early, perhaps, to be fretting, but this has been a recurring thought of mine for some time now. I also understand that being "melee" puts them closer to the action but at the same time they're likely to avoid the scrutiny of other, squishier classes.

Warrior Priests need the survivability because they have to heal from melee range, which opens them up to much pounding from enemy tanks and melee dpsers. Distance is the other healers' armor.

[Dalwin]

I don't like it. At all.
I'll feel "forced to do damage" in order to heal. Something I don't want to do. I want to Support and Heal my Team. Leave DPS to the Damage-Dealers, Tanking abilities to the Tanks, and give us Supporters our Support and Heals, and we're happy.
(I, at least :( )

One of the things I am glad to see this game doing is lessening the stereotypical pigeonholing of classes into group roles. It is going to take a while for some players to stop looking at everything as healer/tank/dps etc., but I believe it will come.

You are going to see that pretty much any group of characters will be functional. The EQ days of know your place and stick to it are fading away in the case of WAR in my opinion.

So instead of a set formula of a group needs 2 of class A, one of class B etc., I believe we will see groups that look at what abilities they have and use whatever those are to their fullest.

[Axxar]

The warrior priest is a melee character, therefore he needs to have more armor than say, a goblin shaman who can attack from a distance.

[Montague]

I don't like it. At all.
I'll feel "forced to do damage" in order to heal. Something I don't want to do. I want to Support and Heal my Team. Leave DPS to the Damage-Dealers, Tanking abilities to the Tanks, and give us Supporters our Support and Heals, and we're happy.
(I, at least :( )

No, no a thousand times NO!

If I want WoW PVP I'll play WoW. I want defense to matter, which means defenders having enough offense to actually kill somebody. Warrior-Priests, Shamans, Runepriests, etc should be a threat, not just the first to fall to the assist train. Overpower the healers - both sides have them, who cares? I'm tired of healers/defensive players being free kills in these games.

[Drunkenmaster]

People are deluding themselves if they don't think there are "healers" in this game, and that healing won't play a major role in combat..


My feelings exactly. Healers will always be a vital part of a teamgame. Exceptions are the pot spamming asian mmos :)

[Grrblt]

People are deluding themselves if they don't think there are "healers" in this game, and that healing won't play a major role in combat. Most of the PvP vids so far demonstrate that sans healing most charaters die on the scale of a few seconds. It's nice of Mythic to want to provide "healers" with viable damage, but it will never match the output of other classes and healing/buffs will be their most valuable contribution to the group. I'm not sure that the "do damage to heal damage" dynamic is going to pan out all that well either, but at least they're trying something new.

There are healers. Nobody is saying there aren't. But if you think that the healers will have weak damage output just "because that's the way it is", then you are the one deluding yourself. Why can't they? Where is the rule that a stunlocking and tanking Blorc has to do heaps more damage than the nuking and healing Shaman?

It's very easy to ensure that you have to do damage to heal damage; make the non-Waaagh!'d spells worthless. You can heal without doing damage, but you're going to suck at it. Hit someone on the head first, and then you can be a good healer. It's not even difficult to program.

[Ostracized]

I am not a priest player. I am not a healer player.

But I know the pain those classes go through, and I hope no-one is forced into a "healbot" mod. Even if that means someone does not play the game at ALL. but i find it stupid and probably a lie, if someone says they will not play because they cannot be a zombie like healbot following around the people that actually fight.

[Solidsnake]

i don't remember where the exact quote is but it was something like

"If you want to stand back and heal or buff don't play this game"

therefore to all the people who want that, take the developers advice and go back to playing a pathetic support class in WOW

[Arcadius]

Paul Barnett himself stated in a video Q & A:

"There is no sitting at the back going 'and I heal and I heal and I heal', because it's boring! If you are one of those people who just likes being a medic, who likes sitting at the back not doing anything going 'and I heal and I heal and I heal'...go away. Stop watching. Click away. Don't even leave a comment on the board going 'I hate this game because it has no healers' because we're telling you now, we're not the game for you. We're the game for people who want to matter."

You can find a video of this on youtube or google video, look up "Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning Q&A - Part 4 (IGN)".

[Parallax]

Heh thats kinda funny......because healing in these games doesnt matter....right.
Wooo first post:. ;)

[Buucho]

i don't remember where the exact quote is but it was something like

"If you want to stand back and heal or buff don't play this game"

therefore to all the people who want that, take the developers advice and go back to playing a pathetic support class in...


http://youtube.com/watch?v=VRgZo7ezNVQ

There you go. And Elgareth, not a flame, just a heads up, check out around 1:55 into the video. Hope that helped :)