Question for the Experts: Dragons

[Varrick]

Or anyone who's familiar with Warhammer lore. :)

Sadly, I'm one of the many who are new here to the WAR universe, introduced only by this game. All my tabletop experience has been in the form of D&D, specifically the Forgotten Realms. But I AM trying to learn things here, so please be patient with me.

Anyways, after brushing up on my Ulthuan history, I got to wondering about dragons. The high elves obviously have some kind of a bond with them, although most of them are asleep now. I was just curious what this kind of bond was like, and what the dragons themselves are like. When I think of dragon riders my mind immediately defaults back to Anne McCaffrey's Pern, and I get the feeling there's not many similarities here. Are these dragons more akin to D&D's wyrms, who are smart, powerful creatures and a race unto their own? Are they more beastial, and cannot even talk? Or are they kind of inbetween, like the forementioned Pernese dragons?

If anyone can sate my curiousity, or if they just know anything in general about the dragons and the Dragon Princes, I'd love to hear it. :)

[Maximilian]

Dragons in Warhammer are less the old and powerful creatures they are in other games. Not to say they are not powerful its just they are more mounts than Main characters. There are a few major dragons in the lore of Warhammer though.

Kalgalanos the Black, said to be the father of all dragons, his spawn having all colours under the sun.

Graug the Terrible, Dwarf Slayer, the greatest of all dragons. He destroyed the last dwarven defenders at Karak Azgal and made the throne room his golden nest, gathering all the gold and jewels from Karak Azgal. Graug hunted other treasures as far as Bretonnia. Many treasure hunters were killed, but Graug was eventually defeated by the dwarf Skalf Dragon Slayer, who became the new Lord of Karak Azgal.

Skaladrak Incarnadine, Graug's mother, who tormented the lands around Karak Kadrin (1420 Imperial Calendar).

Galrauch, first of the Chaos Dragons. Ridden by the Elf Prince Learfin at Aenarion's side during his battle against Chaos, Galrauch devoured the Greater Deamon of Tzeentch. The Daemon corrupted Galrauch and the mighty dragon turned against the elves. After Aenarion defeated the hordes of Chaos, Galrauch fled and slept for centuries. Once in a while, he returns to spread mayhem. He killed King Thurgrim Rockarm and his kin and destroyed the city of Languerre de Lac.

Indraugnir, Aenarion's noble dragon sacrificed his life in service of his master.

[Lionsprey]

well since high elves supposedly have a connection with dragons that means dark elfs would have one to wont it? and on a side note are hydras related to dragons and is that why Dark elfs can use them?

[Maximilian]

Dark Elves have a connection to all crazy monsters in the dark from their Beastmasters. Hydras, Manticores etc.

The connection the High Elves have with dragons is more from the respect the Dragons give the High Elves since Dragons were created not much before the Elves by the Old Ones and both have a memory of that time.

[Kilani]

The dragons in warhammer are intelligent and yes they can speak. The high elf dragons are very much tied into the land of ulthan as well as the elves who live there. ulthan used to be home to hundreds of dragons but as ulthan slowly sinks into the ocean as the magic of the old ones dies the dragons fall further and further into slumber and become harder to wake up. they have a group of elves specifically near the dragons at all times trying to wake them up. this seems to only be the case with the high elf dragons it would seem this might be down to the dragons being born in an area drowning in magically energy, because of this no more or very few high elf dragons are born.

the wood elf dragons barely leave athol loren and very rarely like visitors unless your a wood elf.

and the black dragons are beat and broken from the moment they are born which corrupts them and turns them just as evil as thier masters.


it is not mentioned i dont think if the dragons have some closer bond aka ann maccafry style to the elves.

[Hinty]

As my understanding goes, they are much like the D&D dragons, Old, powerful and in decline, although as said previously they are not so powerful as the D&D equivalents. They are still powerful all the same.

The Dark elves use Dragons as well although to a lesser degree, there was at least one Dark Elf special character in table top that used a Dragon mount, and i believe the Witch King does as well (Can't be sure, the last set of rules i have for him had him mounted on a cold one chariot) They seem to favour Black Dragons, I'm guessing there are a handful of blacks in the mountains near their homelands.

Of all the races the elves seem to have them most Dragon mounts as they tend to live near a significant supply unlike the other races.


As for Hydras, i don't know if they are related but i would assume not, they are not restricted to Dark Elves per-say, again i think the prevalence of Hydras in dark elf armys is more down to a simple case of locality, it should also be noted that Dark Elves are linked to Hydras more because of their extensive use of specially trained War Hydras rather than the fact they use more than other races. Thanks to their Beastmasters Dark Elves have a higher tendency to use Monstrous creatures in their armys anyway.

[Kilani]

@hinty - black dragons are bred by the beastmasters for the dark elves they have a huge population of dragons compaired with the other races.

yes malekith used to ride in a cold one chariot until seraphon was born, then he started using the dragon as a mount. however in the new book i believe malekith can once again use a chariot instead of the dragon.

hydras are a different species entirely but also bred by the beastmasters.

[Flegler]

The connection the High Elves have with dragons is more from the respect the Dragons give the High Elves since Dragons were created not much before the Elves by the Old Ones and both have a memory of that time.

Actually, Dragons are one of very few creatures in the Warhammer World that predate the coming of the Old Ones, Dragon Ogres being the only other native intelligent species. The Old Ones completely altered the world's climate and ecology and these creatures have been in decline ever since.

According to the Old World Bestiary for WFRP, thousands of years ago dragons used to be on good terms with dwarfs as well as elves. These were the great days of rune magic, since the most powerful master runes could only be forged in the heat of dragon-fire. It seems the dragons sided with the elves in their war with the dwarfs, or some other grudge came between the two races, since these days the only association dragons have with dwarfs is occasionally using their abandoned holds for lairs.

[Hellzbellz]

No one has mentioned the wood elves. for shame

[Hinty]

did i not?? whoops i intended to. For the record then...

Wood Elves come third in our "Warhammer world dragon users in armys type stuff top ten!!!" Wood elves have a tendancy to use a race of Green dragons that they only have access to who live somewhere in their little forest kingdom (Or "that place thats just crying for a big tank of petrol and a zippo" as i like to call it) I don't know too much detail about them however so i guess someone else can fill in the blanks.


In summary, Dark elves use Black Dragons, High Elves use Blue Dragons, Wood Elves use Green Dragons. All referances i can ever recall to Red Dragons are solely as loners not as allys of any one race. There also were rules for White Dragons however i don't recall anyone having used them ever.

[Arryn]

for sake of completeness: Smearghaus (sp?) is another famous individual dragon, slain by Gilles le Breton before he united the country of Bretonnia. The cloak made from that dragon's skin is still used by the Dukes of Bastonne as a holy relic.

and there's also Zombie Dragons - undead dragons that the Vampire Counts use as steeds.

[Kilani]

actually i think you may find that i did mention wood elf dragons.

to add a bit to that wood elf dragons are also very chameleonic they blend perfect with thier surrounding and like i said they barley leave athal loren and hate just about everyone and only tolerate the wood elves.

as with refering the dragons by colour i have never read anywhere that the high elf dragons are called blue dragons someone please point me to where this is wrote. the high elf dragons are called star dragons as far as i know.

one of the most powerful dragons in the warhammer world is the jade dragon emperor of cathay who is only very rarely mentioned in any canon as not many people visit the place. cathay is full of old dragons who have the ability so it is said to shape change, apparently the jade dragon emperor has actually lived for thousands of years because he is actually a dragon in the guise of a human.

not sure how much of that is true but i know it is mentioned somewhere in some fluff i will try to find out its source.

and all chaos dragons are decendants of galrauch i think.

[Lord Coake]

In High Elf Ch1, when you first Clumel, you see a gold dragon die in the city square, dragged down by Harpies.

[Vrakh]

and all chaos dragons are decendants of galrauch i think.

Yep , all Chaos dragons have two heads. Just like Galrauch (though his two heads are more like one head being split into two halves).

[Estebar]

one of the most powerful dragons in the warhammer world is the jade dragon emperor of cathay who is only very rarely mentioned in any canon as not many people visit the place. cathay is full of old dragons who have the ability so it is said to shape change, apparently the jade dragon emperor has actually lived for thousands of years because he is actually a dragon in the guise of a human.

not sure how much of that is true but i know it is mentioned somewhere in some fluff i will try to find out its source. If that is true, that sounds like one of the most interesting Special Characters in the Warhammer World ever. You've just reignited my interest in a Cathayan army book sometime in the distant future. :D

as with refering the dragons by colour i have never read anywhere that the high elf dragons are called blue dragons someone please point me to where this is wrote. the high elf dragons are called star dragons as far as i know. Sun (Red/Orange), Moon (Yellow) and Star (White/Blue) Dragons, to be exact.

"Few young dragons are hatched now on Ulthuan. The youngest Dragons are referred to by the Elves as Sun Dragons, in reference to their hot tempers and the rich, warm hue of their scales. Those Dragons that surpass the Sun Dragons in might and enlightenment are honoured with the title of Moon Dragons. Moon Dragons lived before Aenarion and fought in the wars against the Daemons. The oldest and most powerful of Ulthuan's Dragons are referred to as Star Dragons, for they are truly as ancient as the very stars of the firmament. While any Dragons can savage an entire regiment of warriors, tear a manticore apart or rip the head off a wyvern, a Star Dragon is so physically powerful that it can battle against even the Greater Daemons of Chaos and prevail." - Warhammer Armies: High Elves

Also, with regards to Black Dragons...

"The Dark Elves both covet and hate the Dragons who fight beside the High Elves in equal measure, and Malekith's followers would willingly butcher every one of Ulthuan's Dragons just to deny them to their cousins. In the past, raids have been launched against Caledor by Dark Elf Shades, with the intention of stealing unhatched eggs for their depraved master... The Dark Elves have some few Dragons of their own, but they are black-hearted monsters twisted by hate and tortured beyond reason, a poor comparison to the noble beasts of Caledor."

[Revoran]

So it's Sun (Red/Orange) Moon (Yellow/Gold) and Star (White/Blue) ? As well as Black (tortured and inbred by the denizens of Naggaroth) and Forest (Greenish) Dragons who have been warped by the magic in Athel Loren, and Chaos Dragons, mutated and warped beyond recognition by the energies of Chaos, and the (possibly imaginary) Jade Dragons of Cathay - ?

Is there any reliable source, so that I could add this to HammerWiki? Not that I specifically need a source (we're not Wikipedia), but it would be nice.

http://warhammeronline.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon

There's also a couple more famous Dragons:


Minaithnir, a white/blue dragon currently the mount of Prince Imrik of Caledor (find them both in Caledor).
Bracchus, black dragon currently the mount of Beastlord Rakarth (You can find them both in Caledor).
Seraphon, the black dragon mount of Malekith. (You can find Malekith in The Inevitable City, and probably later Seraphon in The Fist of Malekith)

[Estebar]

Also...

Ceithin-Har, a mighty forest dragon ridden by the Wood Elf Sisters of Twilight, Naestra and Arahan. Baudros, an ancient twin-headed Chaos dragon who was locked in a mystic prison beneath the Empire's College of Light before he was unleashed by Egrimm Van Horstmann. *looks down* Not sure if the Zombie Dragons had names.

[Hellzbellz]

You forgot the undead dragons. and yay the twins =)

[Nathar]

Dark Elves have a connection to all crazy monsters in the dark from their Beastmasters. Hydras, Manticores etc.

This is not true. They have no connection what so ever. They're just extremely skilled at breaking the will of beasts. The reason they only train the most crazy ones is that it's a waste of their talents (they think) to break something like a unicorn og hippogryph since humans (who they consider cattle) can train.

You forgot the undead dragons. and yay the twins =)

Undead dragons = zombie dragons. So they have not been forgotten.

EDIT: Oh and to the colour of dragons. In previous editions (5th and earlier) dragons were refered to by colour. Also back then green dragons weren't the same as forest dragons (to my knowledge). I don't think any green dragons are known any more so the difference has propably vanished.

[Hinty]

Judging from the excerpt about the elven dragons there, it would seem that Sun, Moon and Star Dragons are in fact the same race, they just change colour as they age since they are described as being different ages.

[Nathar]

Judging from the excerpt about the elven dragons there, it would seem that Sun, Moon and Star Dragons are in fact the same race, they just change colour as they age since they are described as being different ages.

All dragons are the same race. Just different colours/species/breeds. Just kidding, I'm actually posting to agree with you. The dragons of Ulthuan (not an official name of them!) are the same "whatever" just different age, level of power and level of laziness. Damn if I was a dragon I hope I was a big one, just sleep all day for year after year after year after....... yes I'm lazy!

[Hinty]

but if you sleep all day when will you play WAR?

[jonanotoko]

If I remembered correctly, 4 edition back in the high elves army book, the dragon's colour affect which type of breath attack it will have.

White - Icy breath
Black - Noxious fume
Blue - No breath attack instead it's like an electric eel
Red - Fire
Green - Acid or something

This however only applies to dragon under high elves. The rest of the race have their own rules on dragon, like the wood elves forest dragon despite being green coloured still have fire breath.

Furthermore the dragon are divided into 3 age type
Dragon -> Sun Dragon
Great Dragon -> Moon Dragon
Emperor Dragon -> Star Dragon

After that edition seems like all this thing were dumped and there's only one type of dragon with fire breath. Only in the latest edition (7th) they come back with 3 type of dragon in regards of their age

As for Galrauch after eating one of the major demon of chaos he started to grow one more head. The catch is one of this head is the real head and the other is the demonic head and from time to time they fight each other.