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Belvoron
06-04-2007, 11:27 AM
First and foremost, some apology must be made for creating an entirely new post for this discussion point. However, given the direction of the thoughts and concerns posted, it seemed prudent to organize and address them in a new discussion.

Mounted Combat - History, Balance and Implementation


The main concerns of the communit seem to be the balance and implementation of mounted combat into an mmorpg environment without the character or classes in question becoming overpowered Flavors of the Week/Month or marginalized as to be impotent and/or irrelevant.

The path to accomplishing this daunting task can be found in studying and better understanding heavy cavalry in the past. Hopefully, this will allow us the insight into options which will create a fun, vivid, and competitive character.

History

The charge of gallant and noble knights against the forces of darkness has long been the staple of classical romantic literature. Jousts against corrupt rivals, the favor of maidens, the court life, all these things contribute to a rich and vivid romantic recounting of the knights of hold. However, the perspective of military history shows that they were indeed mortal, with quite effective countermeasures to their much-vaunted charges and fighting prowess.

During the Middle Ages, the mounted warrior reigned supreme well into the 15th century. The turning point against these great mailed soldiers came in two forms, melee counters and ranged counters. The melee counters were pikemen or spearmen in box formation with a shield wall. The Scottish victory at Falkirk as well as the numerous victories of the Swiss pikemen demonstrated that the heavy cavalry could be beaten with proper tactics and discipline. The ranged counters came in the form of longbows with metal tips, attributed to the British forces of the period, and later with crossbows. While these are often marked as great innovation for their time, they were in fact mastered ages before by the Roman, Alexandrian and Persian armies.


The reason, largely, for the overwhelming success of heavy cavalry had a very simple reason. Most of the nobility during this period deemed properly outfitting and armoring their peasantry divisions as lunacy, since they could very well turn on their lords. While there are certainly exceptions to the rule, as with all such exceptions, they were rare. Their success was against poorly equipped, undisciplined and low-morale forces. Once the Age of Feudalism started trailing off, and professional armies took the place of conscripted citizenry, the overwhelming dominance of the mounted knight died along with it.

The lesson here, being, that the power of the knights began to fade once the enemy became more organized. However, that does not address the reason why, which is more a matter of the mechanics and limitations of mounted combat.

There is no denying that mounted combatants are powerful and destructive forces, however, they have their limitations. The first and foremost being their much-vaunted charges. While the Bretonnians, in the tabletop game, can charge infantry blocks head on and have a good chance of routing them, that would not be the wisest thing to do with a real regiment. The reason being that their charge, while quite effective, can be thwarted. These considerations can help give a perspective on how to properly balance a mounted class.

Since the charge seems to be the largest point of interest and/or contention, it would be prudent to discuss the limitations of it. When a charge occurs, first and foremost it has to break the line it hits, or at least cause significant casualties that the horses in the back ranks do not crash into (with great force) or trample their companions. The strength of cavalry has and always will be their mobility, if the charge is stopped, they can be easily swarmed by the infantry around them and be pulled from their horse or thrown from their horse if their steed becomes injured. Both occasions will most often cause the death of the rider if not their steed as well.

So, assuming the charge goes through the line, there still remains the problem of mobility. If the knights spearheading it are not able to cut through the other ranks and free room in the breach for their brethren, they will be cut off and same as before, pulled from their steeds one way or another. The same problem of the swarming infantry is compounded by having to trample over the corpses and weaponry of the fallen which is not always a simple thing to do.

So, further assuming that they can open the breach, they still have a problem. If the enemy is able to rally and once again swarm against the knights, they will have the problem of immobility, which makes the fighting much more difficult for the knights for the above reasons.

Now, these circumstances certainly do not make the knight unable to defend themselves, they already have very significant abilities and advantages which give them an immense edge. Their height advantage gives their strikes a great more cleaving power. Their horses, if barded correctly, are also lethal warriors in their own rights; capable of slaying men and anything else threatening the steed and his knightly companion. Furthermore, mounted combat is an art form all its own that takes years to master, and is designed for these circumstances.

Thus, while the odds may seem stacked in a defender’s favor, one had best believe that they certainly are not.

So, having discussed the strengths and weaknesses of heavy cavalry in some detail, it would take too much time to detail all of them, perhaps we can begin ascertaining the best possible approach to implementing it within the game.

Balance


Balancing the strengths and weaknesses is not a daunting task as it may seem. Cavalry, as a whole, operates differently than standard rank and file and has different considerations. However, this is not the real world, and alterations need to be made to make a fun, useful, and balanced character.

The roles of cavalry are much different than infantry or archers/artillery. Cavalry works in support of and with the support of the infantry and the ranged divisions. The notions of legions of horsemen charging infantry blocks on their own, while nice for Tolkien and other fiction, would lead to the death of many noble knights and horses. Organized, unengaged infantry slaughter cavalry.

Cavalry needs to be used to pursue, disrupt, and flank. After all, in the interest of balance, if cavalry become powerful enough to be used as frontal assault, what’s the use of infantry, healers, archers? Where is the balance in that? Seeing how it works in the real world will, thankfully, can give mounted combat a glorious avenue into online gaming.

So, the best way for cavalry divisions/squadrons (depending on your orientation) will be in flanking maneuvers against foot combatants, pursuing actions against broken or injured forces, and fast reaction teams against forces that threaten their own ranks. The shrewdest of generals will be able to use the wonderful mobility of these great knights to awesome effect. The rest will throw them in waves against organized ranks and have them perish horribly and needlessly, as it should be.

For all the pondering and philosophizing, there are indeed many manuscripts and knowledge regarding mounted combat that have survived to this day that detail the methods of these old warriors. Some of these may help better define their ancient and mighty techniques which the bards have left nameless.

Implementation


With nearly no information on the game, the suggestions or ideas are simply that, suggestions. The core philosophy behind the powers being that which helps in flanking, gives speed for pursuing routed/heavily damaged enemies, and brings death to the same routed/heavily damaged enemies.


Knightly Powers:


Flanking Powers- Designed to help the army with already engaged enemies.

Charge: +speed, +defense. Minimum range and medium cool down.


The first and most often talked about ability has been the Charge. Certainly it needs to have a place in the mounted combatants arsenal. However, instead of giving a massive single hit, which would be doubtless be exploited, it would be better to give a massive speed boost for many seconds, to close the distance and strike first, or catch fleeing enemies. The defense bonus would allow the knight to break through the line and fight the battle on equal terms with their enemies, since they will no doubt fire magic and arrows at them to stop the charge.

Trampling Crash: 2 second short-medium range Point Blank Area of Effect. Light AoE crushing damage. Multiple instances of stun do not stack, 4-5 second stun immunity. Must be used with 10 seconds of Charge.

This ability would simulate the effects of a successful charge as enemies would be knocked over by their comrades and splattered by brains and gore. The small duration of the stun would disrupt the spells being cast at the time, but would not make persistent AoE stun lock possible. At the very most, an organized group would be able to use two stuns before the timer ran on Charge. Also, the light damage would help the infantry kill or route those targets they had already significantly damaged.

Battlecry: Small Point Black Area of Effect Debuff cleansing. 4 targets maximum.

This ability would help those infantry that were already engaged. Just as a successful flanking charge would embolden the infantry fighting at a shield wall in real life, and make them less likely to notice their wounds or fall under the malign influence of witchcraft. Since the knight counts as 1 target, that means there will only be 3 others that can benefit from the buff.

Pursuing Powers: Designed to help the Knights run down already fleeing enemies.

Coward’s Destiny: Ranged snare. 40% movement.

Quite self-explanatory. It makes the target move slower so that one may catch it. If WAR is anything like previous incarnations of MMORPGs, then we will undoubtedly see some kind of speed buff class or classes. This keeps the rather cheap little kiters from outpacing both the horse and their rider.

Myrmidea‘s Embrace: Temporary +Defense against projectiles/arrows. Medium Cooldown.

A protection against arrows so that the knights cannot be chain-kited by ranged assailants as they are chased from the field. Certainly, it would be too much to make the Knight’s arrow-proof with a small or no cool down, but, they don’t function very well chasing archers and ranged fighters if they die in the first salvo.

Death Bringer Powers: Powers that strike down the cowardly and finish the forces of evil.


Blazing Vengeance: Heavy Damage and DoT. Only useable if target is under 20% health.

For those that played WoW, it will be similar to a warrior’s Execute ability. Think of how a knight, upon overtaking their target will be able to swing hard and freely at critical areas. Armor or no, a heavy strike to the head will nearly kill anyone. Requiring a lot of power to channel it would be another way of keeping the power balanced.

Blinding Faith: Three second “power block”, target cannot use any abilities for three seconds, though they can still move and fight. Also gives immunity to Blinding Faith for ten seconds.

A good way to remove the one-hit-wonder abilities of some other classes before the death-blow, or a good way to help the infantry remove the influence of support characters from the battle. Used in the right instance, it can turn the tide of the fight. On the other hand, used at the wrong time, they can cast with relative impunity.

Once again, these are all suggestions. Less than that perhaps, musings would be a better word. However, the philosophy behind them demonstrate the ability to make a class that can have any role that a developer desires to give it, and that mounted combat does not necessarily mean that it is simply powerful infantry with greater degrees of mobility.

Another possibility that presents itself is horsemanship. Master horsemen practiced for years to perfect the teachings of becoming one with their steeds. Some of these feats were immensely powerful and equally difficult to execute. After all, a knight is nothing without their horse and one must remember that their mighty steeds were no less the courageous heroes that they were.

Feats of Horsemanship:

In battle, maneuvering with a horse oftentimes had more than one objective. Perhaps the defensive action also presented an opportunity to begin another offensive maneuver. It took the knight’s mounts years to learn these difficult maneuvers.

For those of you familiar with the terms, yes, there are other terms as well. And yes, I could talk about the engagement, collection, and all of that. However, that would suit no purpose. This is musing after all, and expedient example.

Offensive Maneuvers: Used to bring the fight to the enemy and inflict heavy damage.

Balotada: Point Blank AoE Defense Debuff, single target 2 second stun.

To describe it, it looks like the horse does a “bunny hop” springing from his hind legs and landing on the target. The typical reaction of those around it is to back off and get out of the way of the leaping half-ton war steed. Once again, this falls under a support category where the infantry will be helped immensely by someone who can break the defense of their enemies.

Capriolle: Point Black AoE Attack Debuff, conical targets stunned, front and rear cone 2 seconds, knockback. Adds stun immunity.

This is a leap up in the air by the horse where they strike with the hind legs and the front. Those that are not bashed by the kicks normally have to scramble to get out of the way, which of course makes it difficult to strike an opponent.

Defensive Manuevers: Used to shield the horse and rider against the tide of infantry.

Pirouette: Defensive buff on self, 1 second stun on one target, target loses targeting of caster.

This is a small circle, about the size of a dinner plate, made by the back legs in the canter that gives the rider a better position on his target. The target, in turn, has to get out of the way of the horse’s girth as it nearly tramples him. The target would lose sight of his enemy temporarily as he avoided the forelegs.

Parade: Small AoE knock back.

It’s similar to a pirouette, in that it is a change of direction. However, it has a larger radium and is with a high, cadenced (high knees basically), trot. It is used to give more space to maneuver and face the target.

As one can see, there are a multitude of possibilities for power and skill balance that is fun to play and useful. The details of balance, of course, can only really be seen and understood once the game is in hand. In the meantime, it is possible to conjecture and muse on ways to make it possible. Certainly it is possible, but whether it will be done is another topic for discussion.
Summary


Cavalry fulfills more of a support role on the battlefield when correctly utilized in a professional and disciplined army. It is used to pursue those that flee, disrupt lighter troops on the battlefield (archers, artillery, skirmishers, casters), support the infantry (flanking and charging) and archers/artillery as they make their advance, and work as a proactive response force to ensure that ones own lines are not destroyed by opposing cavalry.

The powers can be properly balanced if the class is given a role to fulfill that is both useful and entertaining. Cavalry are not simply infantrymen on horses, they are their own separate unit type. To fulfill the needs of the community, the developers and the class, requires a role, but not to be so narrowly defined that it is unable to adapt to the conditions and needs of the battlefield. While there have been given examples of types of powers for fulfilling particular roles, that does not address the fundamental need for the class to be fun, flexible, and functional within the sphere of its role.

Mounted combatants should exist in online play, especially this game with its incredible lore and experienced design team. Balancing it is possible, though perhaps difficult, but there should be no doubt that it can be accomplished.

Thank you for your time and consideration in reading my post. I would appreciate some more input.

Aqe
06-04-2007, 01:11 PM
You have been hit by a wall of huge text and take d12+12 dmg and die.

First and foremost, some apology must be made for creating an entirely new post for this discussion point. However, given the direction of the thoughts and concerns posted, it seemed prudent to organize and address them in a new discussion.

Mounted Combat - History, Balance and Implementation


The main concerns of the communit seem to be the balance and implementation of mounted combat into an mmorpg environment without the character or classes in question becoming overpowered Flavors of the Week/Month or marginalized as to be impotent and/or irrelevant.

The path to accomplishing this daunting task can be found in studying and better understanding heavy cavalry in the past. Hopefully, this will allow us the insight into options which will create a fun, vivid, and competitive character.

History

The charge of gallant and noble knights against the forces of darkness has long been the staple of classical romantic literature. Jousts against corrupt rivals, the favor of maidens, the court life, all these things contribute to a rich and vivid romantic recounting of the knights of hold. However, the perspective of military history shows that they were indeed mortal, with quite effective countermeasures to their much-vaunted charges and fighting prowess.

During the Middle Ages, the mounted warrior reigned supreme well into the 15th century. The turning point against these great mailed soldiers came in two forms, melee counters and ranged counters. The melee counters were pikemen or spearmen in box formation with a shield wall. The Scottish victory at Falkirk as well as the numerous victories of the Swiss pikemen demonstrated that the heavy cavalry could be beaten with proper tactics and discipline. The ranged counters came in the form of longbows with metal tips, attributed to the British forces of the period, and later with crossbows. While these are often marked as great innovation for their time, they were in fact mastered ages before by the Roman, Alexandrian and Persian armies.


The reason, largely, for the overwhelming success of heavy cavalry had a very simple reason. Most of the nobility during this period deemed properly outfitting and armoring their peasantry divisions as lunacy, since they could very well turn on their lords. While there are certainly exceptions to the rule, as with all such exceptions, they were rare. Their success was against poorly equipped, undisciplined and low-morale forces. Once the Age of Feudalism started trailing off, and professional armies took the place of conscripted citizenry, the overwhelming dominance of the mounted knight died along with it.

The lesson here, being, that the power of the knights began to fade once the enemy became more organized. However, that does not address the reason why, which is more a matter of the mechanics and limitations of mounted combat.

There is no denying that mounted combatants are powerful and destructive forces, however, they have their limitations. The first and foremost being their much-vaunted charges. While the Bretonnians, in the tabletop game, can charge infantry blocks head on and have a good chance of routing them, that would not be the wisest thing to do with a real regiment. The reason being that their charge, while quite effective, can be thwarted. These considerations can help give a perspective on how to properly balance a mounted class.

Since the charge seems to be the largest point of interest and/or contention, it would be prudent to discuss the limitations of it. When a charge occurs, first and foremost it has to break the line it hits, or at least cause significant casualties that the horses in the back ranks do not crash into (with great force) or trample their companions. The strength of cavalry has and always will be their mobility, if the charge is stopped, they can be easily swarmed by the infantry around them and be pulled from their horse or thrown from their horse if their steed becomes injured. Both occasions will most often cause the death of the rider if not their steed as well.

So, assuming the charge goes through the line, there still remains the problem of mobility. If the knights spearheading it are not able to cut through the other ranks and free room in the breach for their brethren, they will be cut off and same as before, pulled from their steeds one way or another. The same problem of the swarming infantry is compounded by having to trample over the corpses and weaponry of the fallen which is not always a simple thing to do.

So, further assuming that they can open the breach, they still have a problem. If the enemy is able to rally and once again swarm against the knights, they will have the problem of immobility, which makes the fighting much more difficult for the knights for the above reasons.

Now, these circumstances certainly do not make the knight unable to defend themselves, they already have very significant abilities and advantages which give them an immense edge. Their height advantage gives their strikes a great more cleaving power. Their horses, if barded correctly, are also lethal warriors in their own rights; capable of slaying men and anything else threatening the steed and his knightly companion. Furthermore, mounted combat is an art form all its own that takes years to master, and is designed for these circumstances.

Thus, while the odds may seem stacked in a defender’s favor, one had best believe that they certainly are not.

So, having discussed the strengths and weaknesses of heavy cavalry in some detail, it would take too much time to detail all of them, perhaps we can begin ascertaining the best possible approach to implementing it within the game.

Balance


Balancing the strengths and weaknesses is not a daunting task as it may seem. Cavalry, as a whole, operates differently than standard rank and file and has different considerations. However, this is not the real world, and alterations need to be made to make a fun, useful, and balanced character.

The roles of cavalry are much different than infantry or archers/artillery. Cavalry works in support of and with the support of the infantry and the ranged divisions. The notions of legions of horsemen charging infantry blocks on their own, while nice for Tolkien and other fiction, would lead to the death of many noble knights and horses. Organized, unengaged infantry slaughter cavalry.

Cavalry needs to be used to pursue, disrupt, and flank. After all, in the interest of balance, if cavalry become powerful enough to be used as frontal assault, what’s the use of infantry, healers, archers? Where is the balance in that? Seeing how it works in the real world will, thankfully, can give mounted combat a glorious avenue into online gaming.

So, the best way for cavalry divisions/squadrons (depending on your orientation) will be in flanking maneuvers against foot combatants, pursuing actions against broken or injured forces, and fast reaction teams against forces that threaten their own ranks. The shrewdest of generals will be able to use the wonderful mobility of these great knights to awesome effect. The rest will throw them in waves against organized ranks and have them perish horribly and needlessly, as it should be.

For all the pondering and philosophizing, there are indeed many manuscripts and knowledge regarding mounted combat that have survived to this day that detail the methods of these old warriors. Some of these may help better define their ancient and mighty techniques which the bards have left nameless.

Implementation


With nearly no information on the game, the suggestions or ideas are simply that, suggestions. The core philosophy behind the powers being that which helps in flanking, gives speed for pursuing routed/heavily damaged enemies, and brings death to the same routed/heavily damaged enemies.


Knightly Powers:


Flanking Powers- Designed to help the army with already engaged enemies.

Charge: +speed, +defense. Minimum range and medium cool down.


The first and most often talked about ability has been the Charge. Certainly it needs to have a place in the mounted combatants arsenal. However, instead of giving a massive single hit, which would be doubtless be exploited, it would be better to give a massive speed boost for many seconds, to close the distance and strike first, or catch fleeing enemies. The defense bonus would allow the knight to break through the line and fight the battle on equal terms with their enemies, since they will no doubt fire magic and arrows at them to stop the charge.

Trampling Crash: 2 second short-medium range Point Blank Area of Effect. Light AoE crushing damage. Multiple instances of stun do not stack, 4-5 second stun immunity. Must be used with 10 seconds of Charge.

This ability would simulate the effects of a successful charge as enemies would be knocked over by their comrades and splattered by brains and gore. The small duration of the stun would disrupt the spells being cast at the time, but would not make persistent AoE stun lock possible. At the very most, an organized group would be able to use two stuns before the timer ran on Charge. Also, the light damage would help the infantry kill or route those targets they had already significantly damaged.

Battlecry: Small Point Black Area of Effect Debuff cleansing. 4 targets maximum.

This ability would help those infantry that were already engaged. Just as a successful flanking charge would embolden the infantry fighting at a shield wall in real life, and make them less likely to notice their wounds or fall under the malign influence of witchcraft. Since the knight counts as 1 target, that means there will only be 3 others that can benefit from the buff.

Pursuing Powers: Designed to help the Knights run down already fleeing enemies.

Coward’s Destiny: Ranged snare. 40% movement.

Quite self-explanatory. It makes the target move slower so that one may catch it. If WAR is anything like previous incarnations of MMORPGs, then we will undoubtedly see some kind of speed buff class or classes. This keeps the rather cheap little kiters from outpacing both the horse and their rider.

Myrmidea‘s Embrace: Temporary +Defense against projectiles/arrows. Medium Cooldown.

A protection against arrows so that the knights cannot be chain-kited by ranged assailants as they are chased from the field. Certainly, it would be too much to make the Knight’s arrow-proof with a small or no cool down, but, they don’t function very well chasing archers and ranged fighters if they die in the first salvo.

Death Bringer Powers: Powers that strike down the cowardly and finish the forces of evil.


Blazing Vengeance: Heavy Damage and DoT. Only useable if target is under 20% health.

For those that played WoW, it will be similar to a warrior’s Execute ability. Think of how a knight, upon overtaking their target will be able to swing hard and freely at critical areas. Armor or no, a heavy strike to the head will nearly kill anyone. Requiring a lot of power to channel it would be another way of keeping the power balanced.

Blinding Faith: Three second “power block”, target cannot use any abilities for three seconds, though they can still move and fight. Also gives immunity to Blinding Faith for ten seconds.

A good way to remove the one-hit-wonder abilities of some other classes before the death-blow, or a good way to help the infantry remove the influence of support characters from the battle. Used in the right instance, it can turn the tide of the fight. On the other hand, used at the wrong time, they can cast with relative impunity.

Once again, these are all suggestions. Less than that perhaps, musings would be a better word. However, the philosophy behind them demonstrate the ability to make a class that can have any role that a developer desires to give it, and that mounted combat does not necessarily mean that it is simply powerful infantry with greater degrees of mobility.

Another possibility that presents itself is horsemanship. Master horsemen practiced for years to perfect the teachings of becoming one with their steeds. Some of these feats were immensely powerful and equally difficult to execute. After all, a knight is nothing without their horse and one must remember that their mighty steeds were no less the courageous heroes that they were.

Feats of Horsemanship:

In battle, maneuvering with a horse oftentimes had more than one objective. Perhaps the defensive action also presented an opportunity to begin another offensive maneuver. It took the knight’s mounts years to learn these difficult maneuvers.

For those of you familiar with the terms, yes, there are other terms as well. And yes, I could talk about the engagement, collection, and all of that. However, that would suit no purpose. This is musing after all, and expedient example.

Offensive Maneuvers: Used to bring the fight to the enemy and inflict heavy damage.

Balotada: Point Blank AoE Defense Debuff, single target 2 second stun.

To describe it, it looks like the horse does a “bunny hop” springing from his hind legs and landing on the target. The typical reaction of those around it is to back off and get out of the way of the leaping half-ton war steed. Once again, this falls under a support category where the infantry will be helped immensely by someone who can break the defense of their enemies.

Capriolle: Point Black AoE Attack Debuff, conical targets stunned, front and rear cone 2 seconds, knockback. Adds stun immunity.

This is a leap up in the air by the horse where they strike with the hind legs and the front. Those that are not bashed by the kicks normally have to scramble to get out of the way, which of course makes it difficult to strike an opponent.

Defensive Manuevers: Used to shield the horse and rider against the tide of infantry.

Pirouette: Defensive buff on self, 1 second stun on one target, target loses targeting of caster.

This is a small circle, about the size of a dinner plate, made by the back legs in the canter that gives the rider a better position on his target. The target, in turn, has to get out of the way of the horse’s girth as it nearly tramples him. The target would lose sight of his enemy temporarily as he avoided the forelegs.

Parade: Small AoE knock back.

It’s similar to a pirouette, in that it is a change of direction. However, it has a larger radium and is with a high, cadenced (high knees basically), trot. It is used to give more space to maneuver and face the target.

As one can see, there are a multitude of possibilities for power and skill balance that is fun to play and useful. The details of balance, of course, can only really be seen and understood once the game is in hand. In the meantime, it is possible to conjecture and muse on ways to make it possible. Certainly it is possible, but whether it will be done is another topic for discussion.
Summary


Cavalry fulfills more of a support role on the battlefield when correctly utilized in a professional and disciplined army. It is used to pursue those that flee, disrupt lighter troops on the battlefield (archers, artillery, skirmishers, casters), support the infantry (flanking and charging) and archers/artillery as they make their advance, and work as a proactive response force to ensure that ones own lines are not destroyed by opposing cavalry.

The powers can be properly balanced if the class is given a role to fulfill that is both useful and entertaining. Cavalry are not simply infantrymen on horses, they are their own separate unit type. To fulfill the needs of the community, the developers and the class, requires a role, but not to be so narrowly defined that it is unable to adapt to the conditions and needs of the battlefield. While there have been given examples of types of powers for fulfilling particular roles, that does not address the fundamental need for the class to be fun, flexible, and functional within the sphere of its role.

Mounted combatants should exist in online play, especially this game with its incredible lore and experienced design team. Balancing it is possible, though perhaps difficult, but there should be no doubt that it can be accomplished.

Thank you for your time and consideration in reading my post. I would appreciate some more input.

Snorri
06-04-2007, 01:40 PM
Well thought out post, and a nice read.

But... is mounted combat even going to be in?
I mean, it was mentioned way way way back... but I haven't heard anything on it since.

Belvoron
06-04-2007, 02:24 PM
Indeed Snorri, at the moment mounted combat is neither confirmed for future release nor in the game at the moment.

While there have been rumors, hearsays, and other such mutterings, we have no unequivocal statements at to a yes or no.

I certainly hope they deem mounted combat viable and interesting enough to put into the game. It would certainly make many people very happy.

On the other hand, the primary problem will be balance and implementation, which can, as always, make or break the class.

However, in this I have faith that the WAR team can make it possible if they deem it as such.

[edit] Also, pardon my lack of manners, in my zeal to formulate an answer I forgot to thank you sincerely for the kind compliment regarding my work. I hope others regard it well and can add their thoughts on the matter. Certainly there are things I have overlooked.

Also...again...I apologize for the large text, thank you Aqe for making it a more manageable size for the readers. I have trouble reading the smaller text, though I forgot that is certainly not the case with the rest of our reading population.

Naestra
06-04-2007, 02:29 PM
Great post you write well, enjoyable read and this would persuade me to include it in my game if I was a developer, but I'm not :(

Montague
06-04-2007, 03:37 PM
Interesting read. I had some quibbles with a couple of your historical points but it's clear you have an idea of what you're talking about.

Mounted combat is what's got me so excited about the game, and KOTBS specifically. If it's not implemented I'd be a sad camper.

As for your abilities, some are good but some I'm not too keen on. I just don't see knights having a snare for example - the only image I can conjure up for this would be knights running around mounted with nets a la Planet of the Apes. Some type of morale or tactic ability with either resistance or temporary immunity to snares is more likely. Ranged magical effects will probably be the knight's Achilles heel, so I wouldn't count on much in the way of countermeasures.

From a purely aesthetic point of view I would much rather have an AOE knockdown effect rather than stun. Seeing my enemies getting dropped to the ground from a successful charge is much more satisfying than just seeing them dazed for a bit. ;)

Fusko
06-04-2007, 04:10 PM
I don't really want mounted combat to be in. If it does make it in, it'll probably just be regular combat with a speed bost. Think about it, two mounted guys charge at each other, and its all very climatic, and then once they get within range they just stop and start swining weapons at each other.

If Mythic does put it in, thats what I'd imagine it as. A knockback on a charge would be cool, but in the end, I don't think mounted combat is worth the time & effort involved in putting it in game. And a lot of people seem to think it would only be limited to a few classes. How would that work? If the KotBS starts to run low on health, all he would have to do is gallop away. I just can't imagine mounted combat being in.

Just my .2 :-?

Montague
06-04-2007, 04:23 PM
I don't really want mounted combat to be in. If it does make it in, it'll probably just be regular combat with a speed bost. Think about it, two mounted guys charge at each other, and its all very climatic, and then once they get within range they just stop and start swining weapons at each other.

If Mythic does put it in, thats what I'd imagine it as. A knockback on a charge would be cool, but in the end, I don't think mounted combat is worth the time & effort involved in putting it in game. And a lot of people seem to think it would only be limited to a few classes. How would that work? If the KotBS starts to run low on health, all he would have to do is gallop away. I just can't imagine mounted combat being in.

Just my .2 :-?

I'm about 90% certain mounted combat will be in, and the reason being is that with the collision detection and formation of actual battle lines there will be a need and purpose for flanking maneuvers and fast moving characters. I'm sure there's going to be technical and balance challenges in implementing it so I'm not surprised that we haven't heard any specifics yet. Balancewise, I doubt a Knight would be able to just mount up on a horse and retreat from combat. WoW doesn't allow you to mount up whilst in combat and I'm fairly sure that WAR will have similar restrictions.

Arclyte
06-04-2007, 05:48 PM
I don't really want mounted combat to be in. If it does make it in, it'll probably just be regular combat with a speed boost.

Well I'm glad we have people with such foresight and open-mindedness such as yourself. I don't see how hard it would be to limit a standing horsemens mobility, especially with collision detection. The possibilities are huge, there's more to it than just a speed buff.

Think about it, two mounted guys charge at each other, and its all very climatic, and then once they get within range they just stop and start swining weapons at each other.

As opposed to what? The infantry circle-strafe? The ranged kiting? Please, save the "it would be so basic" crap, because everything else MMOs have offered are just as bad if not worse. I'm sure the Mythic guys can figure out some kid of momentum system or whatever so a full charge can't come to a complete stop on a dime.

If Mythic does put it in, thats what I'd imagine it as. A knockback on a charge would be cool, but in the end, I don't think mounted combat is worth the time & effort involved in putting it in game.

No other MMO since UO has had mounted combat (afaik), I think it's high time the genre broke free of that stupid taboo and work it in.

And a lot of people seem to think it would only be limited to a few classes. How would that work? If the KotBS starts to run low on health, all he would have to do is gallop away. I just can't imagine mounted combat being in.

With everyone having sprint, and most everyone having some kind of snare ability, I really don't think it should be a problem

Just my .2 :-?

Keep them, they're counterfeit.

Belvoron
06-04-2007, 05:55 PM
I certainly agree that a knockback effect would be my preference as well; asethetically and mechanicaly.

And yes, I also agree that a snare would not be as simple to explain. I believe, however, that there needs to be some mechanism for the Knights to be able to catch fleeing enemies and light skirmishers.

If an ability like charge could be made usable during combat as well, then that would seem the most simple solution.

I think many of us would be greatly dissapointed if we did not have the option of mounted combat, whether through character specialization or base class skills.

For the sake of my optimism, and rather hopeful extrapolation, I am much more confident in the belief that they are greatly far-sighted and have planned many possible roles within the overal design of each class.

[edit] Also, I agree with the above post that the mounted combat taboo needs to be broken. UO showed that it is very possible and very entertaining.

Circle strafe and kiting are well, yes, basic. The word that comes to mind is vulgar and/or common.

Then again, I have never been a person impressed with the skills of a duelist, in pseudo-ritual and controlled circumstances. I have, however, always been impressed by the consumate general, who can control the tides of battle until the city is either saved, or burned to the ashes.

My apologies once again, it seems I ranted a bit in that edit.

Well thought out and articulate points, gentlemen.

Pseudoman
06-05-2007, 04:08 PM
The idea of a mounted charge with a knockdown effect at the end sounds great. Also I think the knight should have some speed advantage while mounted however, similar to the speed buffs in DAOC while in combat the buff drops so using this advantage to just run away will only be possible once completely disengaged for a period of time (maybe 5 to 10 seconds). Im imagining charge to be more like the intercept ability of the warrior in wow, usable in combat but on a timer of some kind.