MY idea of the BW

[Volcano Mentality]

In my opinion, I think that the Bright Wizard's first thought when going into a fight should be:

"I'm going to die. Now who am I bringing with me?"

What do you all think of this?

[Clave]

heh, I think that could be quite close to what will happen. From what I know of them so far (admittedly little), they'll make prime targets, and dont have the protection to withstand the punishment. So anyone playing a Bright Wizard may end up needing to be semi-suicidal and just aim to annihilate all he can in the mean time.
I plan on making a BW alt, so I guess I'll find out for myself in due time :cool:

[Krulltak]

Ever see the Mercenaries comercial?

"Blow stuff up. Keep Blowing stuff up. Blow the living crap out of it. Blow the living crap out of it again."

Much more Bright Wizardy.

[Scion]

Yours is quite similar to mine:

"They're going to die. Now who am I bringing with me?"

[Volcano Mentality]

Yours is quite similar to mine:

"They're going to die. Now who am I bringing with me?"

Um... with you where? :confused:

[Volcano Mentality]

I consider all mage/wizard/nuker classes to be suicidal simply to make up for the insane damage. They should be glass cannons, and I say that they should be one-/two-shotted by most melee classes, though they should also have high magical resistances so that BW battles will be flashy and fun (seriously, imagine seeing two BW's blasting each other with giantic fireballs for a whole minute or so: That'd be SO awsome!). I've yet to see this really happen in any game (though I've only ever played FFXI and WoW, both of which have HUGE flaws anyways), so I'm hoping Warhammer will make it so.

[Volcano Mentality]

Ever see the Mercenaries comercial?

"Blow stuff up. Keep Blowing stuff up. Blow the living crap out of it. Blow the living crap out of it again."

Much more Bright Wizardy.

Two things:

1) Is there ANY thread you're NOT in? Sheesh, you're friggin' everywhere! Haha :) ;)

2) Yes I've seen the commercial (pretty cool one) and I agree that that's their job, but I still say they should die very quickly under melee punishment.

[Krulltak]

Two things:

1) Is there ANY thread you're NOT in? Sheesh, you're friggin' everywhere! Haha :) ;)

2) Yes I've seen the commercial (pretty cool one) and I agree that that's their job, but I still say they should die very quickly under melee punishment.


They are a bunch of old guys wearing robes, of course they are weak in melee.

Although, if you have ever seen the devastating suicide attack of an Infested Terran in Starcraft, then imagine that but with fire and an old guy in red robes.

Also, in response to your first statemnet: In MY domain, I am all POWERFUL!

[Scion]

Um... with you where? :confused:

I can see how you would mix up my statement. I simply changed around yours, except instead of "who am I bringing with me?" as a reference to exploding upon death and killing my enemies, I meant "who am I bringing with me?" as in "who will be in my team to help so I dont have to die?". Personally as a Bright Wizard I'll either be the last to die or the first to kill them all, you'll rarely see me have to explode to get the job done. :p

P.S. Stop triple posting darnit, press the Preview Post button before you post to check everything is alright, then scroll down to see if anything new has been posted.

Although, if you have ever seen the devastating suicide attack of an Infested Terran in Starcraft, then imagine that but with fire and an old guy in red robes.

Hit it spot on. QFT Krully, QFT.

[Volcano Mentality]

I can see how you would mix up my statement. I simply changed around yours, except instead of "who am I bringing with me?" as a reference to exploding upon death and killing my enemies, I meant "who am I bringing with me?" as in "who will be in my team to help so I dont have to die?". Personally as a Bright Wizard I'll either be the last to die or the first to kill them all, you'll rarely see me have to explode to get the job done. :p

P.S. Stop triple posting darnit, press the Preview Post button before you post to check everything is alright, then scroll down to see if anything new has been posted.



Hit it spot on. QFT Krully, QFT.

Haha, sorry. I just don't know how to multi-quote. I get now what you were trying to say, but I don't quite agree. I think that BW's should die really quickly if they're ever targeted, and the way you put it makes you sound invincible. IMO, a melee dps should be fully capable of killing as many as you, just over a longer period of time. So a melee dps will last longer, but kill slower. Balance, you see? ;)

To Krull:
*Bows* Yes, Master of the Warhammer Forums; I too believe you've hit it dead on.

[Azrayne2.0]

I'd rather play well, 'survive' and still take down tons of enemies ;)

Remember, a dead wizard does no DPS.

[Oasis]

The bright wizards are gangsta they cant die, and when they're about to they "spontaneously" combust into flames. See? bright wizards NEVER die;)

[Dabigbom]

All Theorycraft and no play....

[Volcano Mentality]

I'd rather play well, 'survive' and still take down tons of enemies ;)

Remember, a dead wizard does no DPS.

First off, in that case you'd be OP and would get nerfed really quick, unless the WAR dev's turned out like the WoW dev's and make the caster classes superior. I mean, if you have a super dps class that never dies, then you ruin the game for everyone else.

Secondly, I only mean in RvR. For PvE, you should have good soloability against single, and possibly even multiple, enemies (you kill them before they get close to you, or you blow up in their face before you die like the Ninja class in FFXI). In RvR, you should be killed VERY quickly by melee classes unless you kill them before they get close or you have buddies around to protect you.

[Scion]

In RvR, you should be killed VERY quickly by melee classes unless you kill them before they get close or you have buddies around to protect you.

Bingo. A GOOD Bright Wizard wont die easily, remember we are the heaviest DPS class this side of the Choppa; we arent any puny escape-artist mage, we're Pyromancers! If you cant solve a problem with fire you arent using enough of it. A single melee class who rushes you is going down fast, very fast, two rushing you will be a problem, kill one, DoT the other and fall back. 3, you're dead, run. Any more than 3 is AoE bait, you'll need a solid rush to take down a Wizard who knows what he's doing and has enough points to do what he's thinking.

[Azrayne2.0]

First off, in that case you'd be OP and would get nerfed really quick, unless the WAR dev's turned out like the WoW dev's and make the caster classes superior. I mean, if you have a super dps class that never dies, then you ruin the game for everyone else.

Secondly, I only mean in RvR. For PvE, you should have good soloability against single, and possibly even multiple, enemies (you kill them before they get close to you, or you blow up in their face before you die like the Ninja class in FFXI). In RvR, you should be killed VERY quickly by melee classes unless you kill them before they get close or you have buddies around to protect you.

Not really, there are plenty of cases where it's acceptable and within the bounds of balance to have one character take down several enemies in quick succession, group fights where you're playing a major DPS role being the most obvious example.

Bingo. A GOOD Bright Wizard wont die easily, remember we are the heaviest DPS class this side of the Choppa; we arent any puny escape-artist mage, we're Pyromancers! If you cant solve a problem with fire you arent using enough of it. A single melee class who rushes you is going down fast, very fast, two rushing you will be a problem, kill one, DoT the other and fall back. 3, you're dead, run. Any more than 3 is AoE bait, you'll need a solid rush to take down a Wizard who knows what he's doing and has enough points to do what he's thinking.

Meaningless speculation.

[Scion]

Meaningless speculation.

As well thought out and expressed your opinion on this topic is, I would thank you not to speculate on my speculation please :rolleyes:

[Azrayne2.0]

As well thought out and expressed your opinion on this topic is, I would thank you not to speculate on my speculation please :rolleyes:

What's wrong with my opinion on the topic? All I've said is that a class that goes into a fight with the assumption that they'll die is inherently flawed, and a player that goes into a fight assuming they're going to die is a bad one.

Your problem is you assume too much about what the BW is and is going to be in WAR. If you somehow have access to extensive play experience with the game, feel free to tell me and I'll forgive question your knowledge of the gameplay and tactics of the class, but otherwise.

[Scion]

What's wrong with my opinion on the topic? All I've said is that a class that goes into a fight with the assumption that they'll die is inherently flawed, and a player that goes into a fight assuming they're going to die is a bad one.

Your problem is you assume too much about what the BW is and is going to be in WAR. If you somehow have access to extensive play experience with the game, feel free to tell me and I'll forgive question your knowledge of the gameplay and tactics of the class, but otherwise.


Your opinion is my opinion, I didnt mean it to sound like sarcasm, otherwise I would have put another ":rolleyes:". My speculation on the Bright Wizard is based off what has been released so far, ie. the different spells and skills that will be available. WAR wont be sending classes into the fray with the objective of: "Kill all you can and die." The Bright Wizard is designed to kill or be killed, a good Wizard with a good team will never die, because he isnt running into the crowd and unleashing quick skills and fast attacks.
http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Empire/Careers/BrightWizard.php <read.

[Dabigbom]

Indeed. Also, you could very well consider BW's as true dps dealers in terms of diversity, because from what Mythic says the BW will also have certain melee skills that will more or less, allow him to survive a possible toe-to-toe with a melee dps class.

Pure speculation of course.

[Anaris]

Indeed. Also, you could very well consider BW's as true dps dealers in terms of diversity, because from what Mythic says the BW will also have certain melee skills that will more or less, allow him to survive a possible toe-to-toe with a melee dps class.

Pure speculation of course.

i think your speculation is flawed

since that would mean a Bright Wizard is the supreme DPSer at range, yet can't be taken down in close combat by a melee class designed to deal out the dps. this would pretty much be invulnerability - i would own the battlefield as a Bright with abilities like that.

i think what Mythic said was that all classes could melee. my personal speculation is that a Bright Wizard will have a couple of melee skills designed to hamper and protect long enough for either a disengage or for a tank to come and save their arse, not that they can step up and fight toe to toe with a choppa, flaming sword of rhuin or not.

[Dabigbom]

not that they can step up and fight toe to toe with a choppa, flaming sword of rhuin or not.

Lorewise, that IS quite possible.

Speculation !!!!

[Anaris]

Lorewise, that IS quite possible.

Speculation !!!!

no dude. lorewise the average Empire soldier would have extreme difficulty going toe-to-toe with the weakest orc.

the average bright wizard would stand forth, flaming and yelling, and then the orc would break him in half while he was waving his hands and chanting. the flaming sword of rhuin may be sharp, and light, and on fire, but a choppa is still bigger, stronger and faster than any weakling human, especially a wizard.

[Dabigbom]

no dude. lorewise the average Empire soldier would have extreme difficulty going toe-to-toe with the weakest orc.

the average bright wizard would stand forth, flaming and yelling, and then the orc would break him in half while he was waving his hands and chanting. the flaming sword of rhuin may be sharp, and light, and on fire, but a choppa is still bigger, stronger and faster than any weakling human, especially a wizard.

O RLY?

The average BW actually trains alongside military detachments and has a good understanding of melee combat techniques. If better, he would wave his hands chanting flames and then he would split anyone in half using his special flaming sword. Get it?

If you like the "pansy oooh let me stand back and cast some spells for ye!!" type of wizard, then no. WAR isn't the game for you. I suggest you stop this nonsense before someone closes this thread.

[Anaris]

O RLY?

The average BW actually trains alongside military detachments and has a good understanding of melee combat techniques. If better, he would wave his hands chanting flames and then he would split anyone in half using his special flaming sword. Get it?

If you like the "pansy oooh let me stand back and cast some spells for ye!!" type of wizard, then no. WAR isn't the game for you. I suggest you stop this nonsense before someone closes this thread.

i know more about the fluff than you. normally i'm polite about that, but you're being a bit arsey now.

whether you train with the military detachments or not, you still have to spend years of your life in a dusty room reading books. you may try your best to be fit and capable, but you have to spend your time casting and meditating and working to control the Chaos that you channel. a Bright Wizard will never be as fit and strong and able as the average soldier, and never even close to matching the physical prowess of an orc. you can be as trained as you like, an orc can still pick you up and pull your arms off. sure, magic is helpful, but i'll say it again: there's no chance of a Bright Wizard being as competent in melee as a Choppa - else why play a Choppa?

i suggest YOU stop this nonsense before i get all angry in return in and THEN someone closes the thread.

[Scion]

Lore wise the Bright Wizard isnt going to use the Sword, he's going to use his staff. Were he to use the Sword I would assume it would go through anything short of Chaos armor or the thickest Orc skin like a hot knife through butter. And if a Bright Wizard does use the Sword, he's going to know how to use it, because thats an area of Pyromagic, they arent going to teach you how to summon it without you knowing how to use it. Furthermore, anything but the most seasoned of Orcs is going to lose to a Bright Wizard who knows what he's doing. Since the Wizard can set himself on fire, anything else on fire, explode stuff, incinerate stuff, implode stuff, etc. I doubt anything with a blade and thick skin is going to survive. Then again an Orc is impervious to pain, setting it on fire wouldnt exactly do much, but it would pave the way for that BOOM!!! we've all been waiting for. A Pyromancer is a walking cannon, Ive never seen an Orc survive a cannon shot, close range, to the chest.

In-game the Wizard is going to lose to a melee class, else everyone will be annoyed. Lore-wise yes, the Choppa is dead unless the Wizard has no idea what they're doing, but in game that Choppa will know what he's doing.

[Anaris]

Lore wise the Bright Wizard isnt going to use the Sword, he's going to use his staff. Were he to use the Sword I would assume it would go through anything short of Chaos armor or the thickest Orc skin like a hot knife through butter. And if a Bright Wizard does use the Sword, he's going to know how to use it, because thats an area of Pyromagic, they arent going to teach you how to summon it without you knowing how to use it. Furthermore, anything but the most seasoned of Orcs is going to lose to a Bright Wizard who knows what he's doing. Since the Wizard can set himself on fire, anything else on fire, explode stuff, incinerate stuff, implode stuff, etc. I doubt anything with a blade and thick skin is going to survive. Then again an Orc is impervious to pain, setting it on fire wouldnt exactly do much, but it would pave the way for that BOOM!!! we've all been waiting for. A Pyromancer is a walking cannon, Ive never seen an Orc survive a cannon shot, close range, to the chest.

In-game the Wizard is going to lose to a melee class, else everyone will be annoyed. Lore-wise yes, the Choppa is dead unless the Wizard has no idea what they're doing, but in game that Choppa will know what he's doing.

a bright wizard is not a god of fire. it requires a verse in the lingua praestantia, mystical hand-waving and a good amount of concentration and willpower to make a candle light, let alone to ignite an orc. the mental discipline it requires to do this in the middle of a battlefield requires many late nights and much hard study, a supreme will and excellent knowledge. Bright Wizards are simply not soldiers - they are mages, train how they will.

remember that most wizards from the colleges never see a battlefield - the mages in the Warhammer TT are the absolute cream of the crop, and even their stats show you what it's like.

and you can 'know how to use a sword' all you like, and it can be as sharp as you like. the average Bright Wizard doesn't have the muscle, the speed or the animal cunning to fight an orc toe-to-toe, because an orc is stronger, faster and bigger, and it doesn't matter how sharp your sword is because his cuts just as well. at range, sure, the orc can't do anything, but when he's in your face and shouting, you don't have the space to wave your hands and you'll be dead before you've got as far as "Aqs". prepared, a Bright Wizard should be able to hold his own long enough to disengage or be saved. surprised or ambushed, he should be functionally incapable of lasting more than a few heartbeats toe-to-toe with even a tank class, let alone melee dps.

[Volcano Mentality]

Bingo. A GOOD Bright Wizard wont die easily, remember we are the heaviest DPS class this side of the Choppa; we arent any puny escape-artist mage, we're Pyromancers! If you cant solve a problem with fire you arent using enough of it. A single melee class who rushes you is going down fast, very fast, two rushing you will be a problem, kill one, DoT the other and fall back. 3, you're dead, run. Any more than 3 is AoE bait, you'll need a solid rush to take down a Wizard who knows what he's doing and has enough points to do what he's thinking.

Your idea here is flawed.

A GOOD Bright Wizard shouldn't always be able to easily kill a GOOD Black Orc or whatever. To balance it out, I still say that they should be quick falls, despite what all of you say, unless they have buddies. And the act of "kill them before they get to you" wasn't meant to be a simple feat; it should be something very costly (using most/all of your cooldowns) IMO.

What you're thinking of here is very WoW like, with the ranged casters having superiority over melees because of their ability to kill before they're damaged. Sure, against an average player, a good BW could kill multiple people quickly and survive, but one-on-one with people of equal skill, it should be anyone's game. Every class can kill every class, so it all comes down to skill and numbers.

P.S. This entire thread is about opinion developed from known facts; nothing I said is specualtion. I say what I think SHOULD happen, not what I'm saying WILL happen.

[Volcano Mentality]

a bright wizard is not a god of fire. it requires a verse in the lingua praestantia, mystical hand-waving and a good amount of concentration and willpower to make a candle light, let alone to ignite an orc. the mental discipline it requires to do this in the middle of a battlefield requires many late nights and much hard study, a supreme will and excellent knowledge. Bright Wizards are simply not soldiers - they are mages, train how they will.

remember that most wizards from the colleges never see a battlefield - the mages in the Warhammer TT are the absolute cream of the crop, and even their stats show you what it's like.

and you can 'know how to use a sword' all you like, and it can be as sharp as you like. the average Bright Wizard doesn't have the muscle, the speed or the animal cunning to fight an orc toe-to-toe, because an orc is stronger, faster and bigger, and it doesn't matter how sharp your sword is because his cuts just as well. at range, sure, the orc can't do anything, but when he's in your face and shouting, you don't have the space to wave your hands and you'll be dead before you've got as far as "Aqs". prepared, a Bright Wizard should be able to hold his own long enough to disengage or be saved. surprised or ambushed, he should be functionally incapable of lasting more than a few heartbeats toe-to-toe with even a tank class, let alone melee dps.

Exactly! You hit the nail on the head.

[Anaris]

Exactly! You hit the nail on the head.

QFT!

hahahah, sorry guys, i had to do that.

EDIT: my issue here is that i don't want this class to be a god (partly 'cause i'm rolling high elf). i don't want to see WoW's fire mage - all muscle, no skill. i want preparation and careful forethought to play at least as much of a role as yelling "BURN WITH ME!" and spamming all your cooldowns.

[Scion]

a bright wizard is not a god of fire. it requires a verse in the lingua praestantia, mystical hand-waving and a good amount of concentration and willpower to make a candle light, let alone to ignite an orc. the mental discipline it requires to do this in the middle of a battlefield requires many late nights and much hard study, a supreme will and excellent knowledge. Bright Wizards are simply not soldiers - they are mages, train how they will.

remember that most wizards from the colleges never see a battlefield - the mages in the Warhammer TT are the absolute cream of the crop, and even their stats show you what it's like.

First they arent mages, they're PYROMANCERS, Bright WIZARDS, theres a difference between a Mage and a Wizard. They are basically Battle-Mages; notice the Battle, then the hyphen, followed by Mages. Years spent studying in a room with a book will allow you to know how to channel the fire, not allow you to actually channel it. It takes extreme endurance, openness of mind and discipline over your entire body to master setting yourself on fire and living. In WAR you will be the cream of the crop, trained to kill and destroy, the greatest of the Empires weapons. If a soldier can kill an Orc, in any way shape or form, then a Wizard can, and will, one-up that soldier.

and you can 'know how to use a sword' all you like, and it can be as sharp as you like. the average Bright Wizard doesn't have the muscle, the speed or the animal cunning to fight an orc toe-to-toe, because an orc is stronger, faster and bigger, and it doesn't matter how sharp your sword is because his cuts just as well. at range, sure, the orc can't do anything, but when he's in your face and shouting, you don't have the space to wave your hands and you'll be dead before you've got as far as "Aqs". prepared, a Bright Wizard should be able to hold his own long enough to disengage or be saved. surprised or ambushed, he should be functionally incapable of lasting more than a few heartbeats toe-to-toe with even a tank class, let alone melee dps.

Your misunderstanding of a Wizards bond to the fire he wields aside, I agree with that. An Orc at CONSIDERABLE HEALTH being within striking range of a Wizard = Wizard dead. That wont happen though, ever, unless the Wizard has no idea what he's doing. Remember, its kill or be killed, the Wizard wont die easily, and neither will his enemy and he knows that. Blow the crap out of him, DoT him and pray, chances are if you die so will he.

[Krulltak]

My fanboy senses are tingling! ^^

[Scion]

My fanboy senses are tingling! ^^

Oh man Krully, when I refreshed and saw your name I swear I stopped breathing for a second :p I concede! *runs off*

[Anaris]

First they arent mages, they're PYROMANCERS, Bright WIZARDS, theres a difference between a Mage and a Wizard. They are basically Battle-Mages; notice the Battle, then the hyphen, followed by Mages. Years spent studying in a room with a book will allow you to know how to channel the fire, not allow you to actually channel it. It takes extreme endurance, openness of mind and discipline over your entire body to master setting yourself on fire and living. In WAR you will be the cream of the crop, trained to kill and destroy, the greatest of the Empires weapons. If a soldier can kill an Orc, in any way shape or form, then a Wizard can, and will, one-up that soldier.

okay you maybe need to look up the term 'mage' and how it's synonymous with 'wizard'.

and if you look it up and i'm wrong, well hell, that's how i've been using it.

you may well be the greatest weapon on the battlefield, but you are a weapon for range and damage, not a weapon for taking hits.

okay, realistically, human endurance matters diddly-squat on a battlefield. what matters is the quality of the armour you're wearing - and you ain't got none, wizard-boy. after that, the factors that determine who you kill, that's nothing more than brute strength and speed. and an orc has you beat on both counts, even if you are on fire. i'm not saying "any orc near any bright should mean death" - just that a Bright Wizard, caught unprepared by any orc, should die swiftly. they don't have the endurance or the muscle to go toe-to-toe with an orc - your sword is razor-sharp and on fire, his is blunt and rusty but one hit from either is death and he's bigger, stronger and faster than you are, whether you're at peak human condition or a weedy old Celestial Wizard, and even a well-trained Bright Wizard is gonna be far from peak human.


Your misunderstanding of a Wizards bond to the fire he wields aside, I agree with that. An Orc at CONSIDERABLE HEALTH being within striking range of a Wizard = Wizard dead. That wont happen though, ever, unless the Wizard has no idea what he's doing. Remember, its kill or be killed, the Wizard wont die easily, and neither will his enemy and he knows that. Blow the crap out of him, DoT him and pray, chances are if you die so will he.

i agree wholeheartedly with this. in fact, this is my point - the statement I took issue with initially was (i paraphrase, but the key words are correct) "a Bright Wizard should be able to kill a melee dps class toe-to-toe".

now, toe-to-toe to me doesn't imply range. i thought that was pretty much what the term meant. toe-to-toe with an uninjured orc, i'd like to see abilities to get out of there - flashes of flame, bursts of barely-controlled fire, scary stuff to buy an instant to escape. it shouldn't be a case of "oh, there's an orc. oh, there's a pile of ash."

i want to have to put thought into the class, i want to have to be prepared for melee, and i want to give the other races a fighting chance. i'd like to see Brights who prepare, plan then rush into melee and out again leave behind a hefty chunk of damage and some burning pains in whatever they targetted, but i don't think that a Bright Wizard should ever be toe-to-toe - maybe toe-to-heel, or toe-to-instep, with a Bright Wizard flanking a target that a tank's engaging and burning them to a cinder - but i don't want to see instant, easy melee potential and the ability to survive a melee combat unsupported. after all, try standing a Bright Wizard alone on a battlefield in the TT and see how long he lasts in close combat!

[Krulltak]

Oh man Krully, when I refreshed and saw your name I swear I stopped breathing for a second :p I concede! *runs off*


He concedes! He has realized the error of his ways!

That reminds me, you DO realize you won't be fighting a bunch of plain 'ol orc boyz in WAR right? You will be fighting Big 'uns, Black Orcs and a bunch of crazy Berserkers with swords bigger than you.

Oh and Shamans who can summon giant fists upon you.

(Sorry about the anger, but your lack of a logical mind is among the most infuriating things I've ever encountered)

QFT

[Volcano Mentality]

If a soldier can kill an Orc, in any way shape or form, then a Wizard can, and will, one-up that soldier.

OMFG... are you even TRYING to hide your fanboyness?:roll:

YOU ARE NOT A GOD OF WARHAMMER!!! If you are, then the dev's have messed up the whole damn thing already. You may be flashy and powerful, but if you don't have ANY flaws to make up for it, then what's the point in rolling anything else? If a BW can melee effectively, burst down any opponent from range, AND somehow survive a melee barrage, then there's no way for you to die unless you entirely SUCK! Tell me how in the world is that the LEAST BIT balanced?

Open your eyes to the real world for a moment and realize that not everyone wants to be a Bright Wizard, and that the universe doesn't revolve around you and your ilk.

(Sorry about the anger, but your lack of a logical mind is among the most infuriating things I've ever encountered)

[Scion]

OMFG... are you even TRYING to hide your fanboyness?:roll:

YOU ARE NOT A GOD OF WARHAMMER!!! If you are, then the dev's have messed up the whole damn thing already. You may be flashy and powerful, but if you don't have ANY flaws to make up for it, then what's the point in rolling anything else? If a BW can melee effectively, burst down any opponent from range, AND somehow survive a melee barrage, then there's no way for you to die unless you entirely SUCK! Tell me how in the world is that the LEAST BIT balanced?

Open your eyes to the real world for a moment and realize that not everyone wants to be a Bright Wizard, and that the universe doesn't revolve around you and your ilk.

(Sorry about the anger, but your lack of a logical mind is among the most infuriating things I've ever encountered)

This is right up there with one of Anaris' /ragequit posts. Maybe when you tell ME what MY definition of SOLDIER is, then I'll listen to you. What Anaris meant was a run of the line, trained all their life foot infantry soldier, not a Knight, not a Warrior-Priest, not a Witchhunter. What I SAID, or MEANT, was that if a Bright Wizard knowingly lets his enemies within melee chain cant-get-away attacks, they SUCK, and therefor will DIE. Based off almost every MMORPG and RPG ever, the class that cant stand up against a melee opponent and hope to survive will either run away or not let the other class get close. Did I say we were immortal gods of all? HELL NO I DID NOT! Did I say a Bright Wizard can stand foot-to-foot with any half-proficient melee class and kick his ? AGAIN, NO I DID NOT. To dust off an old one: learn2read. Seriously.

Additionally, name me 1 weakness of the Bright Wizard. I'll get you started:
1. Any other ranged classes.
...Wait nevermind.

P.S. Dammit Krully you cant edit and quote something that was after your original post, people will get confused and something the Universe might need will collapse.

[Volcano Mentality]

This is right up there with one of Anaris' /ragequit posts. Maybe when you tell ME what MY definition of SOLDIER is, then I'll listen to you. What Anaris meant was a run of the line, trained all their life foot infantry soldier, not a Knight, not a Warrior-Priest, not a Witchhunter. What I SAID, or MEANT, was that if a Bright Wizard knowingly lets his enemies within melee chain cant-get-away attacks, they SUCK, and therefor will DIE. Based off almost every MMORPG and RPG ever, the class that cant stand up against a melee opponent and hope to survive will either run away or not let the other class get close. Did I say we were immortal gods of all? HELL NO I DID NOT! Did I say a Bright Wizard can stand foot-to-foot with any half-proficient melee class and kick his ? AGAIN, NO I DID NOT. To dust off an old one: learn2read. Seriously.

Additionally, name me 1 weakness of the Bright Wizard. I'll get you started:
1. Any other ranged classes.
...Wait nevermind.

P.S. Dammit Krully you cant edit and quote something that was after your original post, people will get confused and something the Universe might need will collapse.

Why would you use a run-of-the-mill footsoldier in your description? It has nothing to do with the actual game, unless you're somehow referencing PvE. To dust off an old one: learn2write.:rolleyes:

You constantly imply the BW's godliness, such as when you said: "An Orc at CONSIDERABLE HEALTH being within striking range of a Wizard = Wizard dead. That wont happen though, ever, unless the Wizard has no idea what he's doing. Remember, its kill or be killed, the Wizard wont die easily, and neither will his enemy and he knows that. Blow the crap out of him, DoT him and pray, chances are if you die so will he." The entire sentence makes it sound like attacking a BW is suicide.

[Volcano Mentality]

QFT
Likewise buddy

[Scion]

Why would you use a run-of-the-mill footsoldier in your description? It has nothing to do with the actual game, unless you're somehow referencing PvE. To dust off an old one: learn2write.:rolleyes:

Thats right, why would I reference that? Maybe because Anaris compared the physical state and skills in hand-to-hand combat between that of a dusty old Wizard and a soldier bred for war. Stop whittling down your argument into attempts at flaming.

You constantly imply the BW's godliness, such as when you said: "An Orc at CONSIDERABLE HEALTH being within striking range of a Wizard = Wizard dead. That wont happen though, ever, unless the Wizard has no idea what he's doing. Remember, its kill or be killed, the Wizard wont die easily, and neither will his enemy and he knows that. Blow the crap out of him, DoT him and pray, chances are if you die so will he." The entire sentence makes it sound like attacking a BW is suicide.

...Yes attacking a BW by yourself, without any support, IS suicide. Its the equivalent of a tank rushing a DPS, forgetting his role in things, and expecting to win. If you have a problem with that than you think of a better way for the Wizard to do his part as the largest damage dealer on the Order side and not be rushed by a single opponent and die. Maybe you'd better realize that we're talking about 1 on 1, a team situation would be entirely different, as the Wizard would have a tank handy and the rusher would be with someone else as well. If I wanted to make the Bright Wizard seem godly I would just link you to their known skills page :mrgreen:

[Anaris]

Why would you use a run-of-the-mill footsoldier in your description? It has nothing to do with the actual game, unless you're somehow referencing PvE.

dude we were talking fluff

i ain't getting into the rest, because i don't think i can say "i'm on your side scion" without the aforementioned necessary part of the universe giving up.

[Krulltak]

dude we were talking fluff

i ain't getting into the rest, because i don't think i can say "i'm on your side scion" without the aforementioned necessary part of the universe giving up.


Scion seems to be talking about both the fluff and the game at the same time, thus confuzzling everyone.

[Anaris]

Scion seems to be talking about both the fluff and the game at the same time, thus confuzzling everyone.

i wasn't confused. well, i was for a moment but that's pretty much been the whole discussion, we just sorted it out before you guys showed up.

wait... is krulltak on scion's side? i'm not sure. hey, krull, can you clarify? just so i know if i have to switch.

[Krulltak]

i wasn't confused. well, i was for a moment but that's pretty much been the whole discussion, we just sorted it out before you guys showed up.

wait... is krulltak on scion's side? i'm not sure. hey, krull, can you clarify? just so i know if i have to switch.


Scion's being a fanboy.

And after skimming through all of this the most logical of the trio appears to be you.

[Scion]

Darn right I'm being a fanboy, but regardless of that Im right. Logic and reason dont win arguments, facts win arguments, barring facts the more solid speculation wins. I stand by my speculations, though confuzzling as they may be.

Also:

"i'm on your side scion"

Anaris said that, none of you can question it!

EDIT: OH NO A BLACK HOLE! SAVE ME LAWS OF PHYSICS!

[Volcano Mentality]

Thats right, why would I reference that? Maybe because Anaris compared the physical state and skills in hand-to-hand combat between that of a dusty old Wizard and a soldier bred for war. Stop whittling down your argument into attempts at flaming.



...Yes attacking a BW by yourself, without any support, IS suicide. Its the equivalent of a tank rushing a DPS, forgetting his role in things, and expecting to win. If you have a problem with that than you think of a better way for the Wizard to do his part as the largest damage dealer on the Order side and not be rushed by a single opponent and die. Maybe you'd better realize that we're talking about 1 on 1, a team situation would be entirely different, as the Wizard would have a tank handy and the rusher would be with someone else as well. If I wanted to make the Bright Wizard seem godly I would just link you to their known skills page :mrgreen:
Do you even understand what you just said?

I'm not "whitling down my arguments" moron. I'm turning your own attempted flame back on you. Get it right.

It wasn't Anaris who started the weakling thing, it was you, who claimed that a mage is a run-of-the-mill soldier. The whole time, it seems now that you were going off of the BW versus basic soldier opponent, while I was going off of the BW versus worthy Player Character opponent. That's likely why this hasn't gotten anywhere.

In one-on-one, which I have been talking about for quite some time, all classes should be EQUAL, hence my problem with rushing a BW being suicide. You make him out to be a one-on-one god, which is very fanboy-ish on your part (thank you Krull for supporting me there). In a group setting, their role changes, just as everyone's does, and so then a BW would have a tank handy, as you said. Either way, never should the BW be supreme.

Just so I can stop this pointless banter, cool myself down, and end your pathetically random attempts at insulting me, I would like to clearly state my position on this once again.

NOTE: This is all against other PLAYER CHARACTERS, not weakling soldiers.

One-on-One:
Bright Wizard MUST kill a melee character quickly before he gets close, as once there he will die very quickly himself. This, however, is NOT easy, and the BW must use most/all of his cool downs to burst his enemy down.

RvR:
Bright Wizard becomes more efficient, dealing out damage against prime targets, slapping debuffs, AoE's, and DoT's on anything and everything he can, and making sure he sticks close to a good tank to save him in case an enemy gets free from the fray and tries to attack him.

Strengths:
Burst damage, DoT damage, AoE damage.

Weaknesses:
Can't take a hit, few/no escape spells.

Does this clarify my point to you? Now explain to me what YOUR opinion is, using the same setup I did first and then whatever setup you want after so that we're on the same page. I'm tired of all this confusion.

P.S. First understand what logic is; it is taking FACTS and using them to come of with EDUCATED CONCLUSIONS. Thus it is obvious that logic DOES win arguments, and I've yet to use anything else in any of my posts.

[Jolt]

Beside the useless bickering, the Volcano guy is right.
But this is ofcourse with equal equipment and realm rank etc, and you never have PURE 1 VS 1 because someone will most likely get the jump or has an advantage in terrain.

[Scion]

I'm not the one calling you a moron and you say I'm flaming?

Now Im going to say this again in the most straight-forward way I can muster:

Rushing a Bright Wizard, by yourself, as a tank, or a pure DPS, or a ranged class (dont know why you would rush as a ranged class but still) will get you killed. Why? Because its LOGICAL. LOGIC would dictate that if you're stupid enough to run flat out at an idle Bright Wizard, who can easily just stand there and pump fiery death in your direction, you deserve to die. The Bright Wizard is THE ranged DPS dealer on the Order side, meaning that if he cant drop 1 enemy, rushing at him from even a moderate range, something is seriously wrong with the class. Blowing every single cooldown and throwing every spell at something just to kill them is just plain unbalanced, sorry, but if Im choosing a class that has minimal defenses and little to no melee capabilities I better be able to defeat someone that crazy with ease. In a 1 on 1 scenario, the BEST Bright Wizard will win against the BEST Choppa. Why you may ask? Well because we're the best blah blah blah.

I ask you this, if the Choppa can rush a Bright Wizard 1 vs. 1 and survive and win, why play Bright Wizard? Why not just play the class who can rush past the best damage dealer and 1-2-3 shot him? Comeon be reasonable, we have minimal defenses and are about as big as a target can be, do you seriously think others should be able to survive a full barrage of our best?

Ok now in your format:

One-on-One:
Bright Wizard WILL kill a melee character quickly before he gets close, as once there he will die very quickly himself. This, however, IS easy, but the BW must use most/all of his cool downs to burst his enemy down, which defeats the purpose of them being effective in an RvR situation if they cant drop 1 enemy without extreme measures.

RvR:
They hide behind a tank and dish out death. Of course, not very efficient death, his teammates will obviously be doing all the actual damage...

Strengths:
Burst damage, DoT damage, AoE damage, Debuffs, Buffs.

Weaknesses:
Can take few direct hits, vulnerable to other ranged class.


P.S. If you were using logic by your definition you would be winning the argument, but you arent, you're going in freakin circles and the only reason why Im even posting here is because I need the laughs at the end of the day.

[Dabigbom]

*sigh*

And I all I wanted from WAR was a simple BURN IN AGONY YOU FILTHY SPAWN OF CHAOS!, but time to rack up some arguments and head in for the kill.

Bright Wizards (at least from what is known about them and from Anaris's and Volcano's perspective) are all about spewing fire behind bulky warriors at their enemies in combat right? Like in NO way will a Pyromancer be able to take down an Orc by himself right?

Ok so here comes fluff and lore to teh rescue! This is gonna be so rad :D

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/3823/argument1gg0.jpg

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/8742/argument2bh8.jpg

http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/2638/argument3nd5.jpg

http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/4826/argument4ih2.jpg

Read em' and weep.

p.s hope I didn't violate any copyright with these images. If so, these images are taken from the Warhammer Fantasy : Realms of Sorcery book that is the original propriety of Games Workshop. All rights are reserved to them of course. And Scion, I'm alongside you brother Pyromancer! FOR THE FLAMES OF THE EMPIRE!

[Taurth]

*sigh*

And I all I wanted from WAR was a simple BURN IN AGONY YOU FILTHY SPAWN OF CHAOS!, but time to rack up some arguments and head in for the kill.

Bright Wizards (at least from what is known about them and from Anaris's and Volcano's perspective) are all about spewing fire behind bulky warriors at their enemies in combat right? Like in NO way will a Pyromancer be able to take down an Orc by himself right?

Ok so here comes fluff and lore to teh rescue! This is gonna be so rad :D

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/3823/argument1gg0.jpg

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/8742/argument2bh8.jpg

http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/2638/argument3nd5.jpg

http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/4826/argument4ih2.jpg

Read em' and weep.

p.s hope I didn't violate any copyright with these images. If so, these images are taken from the Warhammer Fantasy : Realms of Sorcery book that is the original propriety of Games Workshop. All rights are reserved to them of course. And Scion, I'm alongside you brother Pyromancer! FOR THE FLAMES OF THE EMPIRE!

I hope you don't consider that proof that Bright Wizards will be able to stand "toe-to-toe" in melee, because if you do then you aren't very bright... No pun intended.

If you do think that, sorry but it isn't going to happen.. You could quote a load of stuff about how a Chosen could slaughter almost any Soldier of any race, but they've been toned down to the level of every other tank class in the game, Bright Wizards aren't going to be ranged and melee gods like those links suggest.

[Scion]

I hope you don't consider that proof that Bright Wizards will be able to stand "toe-to-toe" in melee, because if you do then you aren't very bright... No pun intended.

If you do think that, sorry but it isn't going to happen.. You could quote a load of stuff about how a Chosen could slaughter almost any Soldier of any race, but they've been toned down to the level of every other tank class in the game, Bright Wizards aren't going to be ranged and melee gods like those links suggest.


For the love of the fuzzy lord above please never post in this thread again. Im sick and tired of people coming in here, obviously not reading and understanding the thread, then quoting with the same "Omg Wizards arent that tough lol lol lol (insert INTENDED stupid pun here)". Brother Dabigbom's earlier posts was that lore-wise it is quite possible for a Bright Wizard to SURVIVE, not win, a toe-to-toe fight with an Orc. Anaris then pointed out that the Wizard is no where near peak physical condition, that a soldier is better equipped to fight an Orc and survive, blah blah blah.

Long story short, fluff check mate. And I swear to Allah that if I hear anyone in any way say that I, or anyone or anyTHING else here, said that the Bright Wizards are gods of ANYTHING, I will have this thread closed by any means possible.

[Taurth]

For the love of the fuzzy lord above please never post in this thread again. Im sick and tired of people coming in here, obviously not reading and understanding the thread, then quoting with the same "Omg Wizards arent that tough lol lol lol (insert INTENDED stupid pun here)". Brother Dabigbom's earlier posts was that lore-wise it is quite possible for a Bright Wizard to SURVIVE, not win, a toe-to-toe fight with an Orc. Anaris then pointed out that the Wizard is no where near peak physical condition, that a soldier is better equipped to fight an Orc and survive, blah blah blah.

Long story short, fluff check mate. And I swear to Allah that if I hear anyone in any way say that I, or anyone or anyTHING else here, said that the Bright Wizards are gods of ANYTHING, I will have this thread closed by any means possible.

Well I followed it all, its a bit tough to realize weather your talking about in-game or lore, since you keep changing it to support your arguements...

Anyway, thats why I said " because if you do then you aren't very bright"....

EDIT: By the way, what I said was perfectly reasonable actually. Take a look at Dabigbom's posts:

He starts off by saying that Mythic says it would be quite possible for a BW to stand toe-to-toe with melee dps class, and then backs it up by saying that in the lore its possible:

Indeed. Also, you could very well consider BW's as true dps dealers in terms of diversity, because from what Mythic says the BW will also have certain melee skills that will more or less, allow him to survive a possible toe-to-toe with a melee dps class.

Pure speculation of course.

Lorewise, that IS quite possible.

Speculation !!!!

Now when Anaris argues with him about the lore, he links the above lore about BW's, now he could easily still be discussing the lore, or defending his first point, or both...

Theres no need to get so defensive anyway Scion.

[Scion]

Well I followed it all, its a bit tough to realize weather your talking about in-game or lore, since you keep changing it to support your arguements...

Anyway, thats why I said " because if you do then you aren't very bright"....

If people have trouble distinguishing what another says they shouldnt blindly attack it with the first properly formed thought that comes into their head, they should post asking what context its being used in.

Nevertheless it seems people arent looking past the surface of the Bright Wizards role in battle. You can look at basically any other class thats been released in WAR and immediately tell that classes role. You CANNOT do that with the Wizard, we deal damage in many, many ways, he even have buffs and debuffs, so please dont draw conclusions on what the people here say, they have no idea what they're talking about.

[Taurth]

If people have trouble distinguishing what another says they shouldnt blindly attack it with the first properly formed thought that comes into their head, they should post asking what context its being used in.

Nevertheless it seems people arent looking past the surface of the Bright Wizards role in battle. You can look at basically any other class thats been released in WAR and immediately tell that classes role. You CANNOT do that with the Wizard, we deal damage in many, many ways, he even have buffs and debuffs, so please dont draw conclusions on what the people here say, they have no idea what they're talking about.

I think my edit makes it pretty clear why its easily confusable, if people are going to claim things that could happen in game and then back it up with lore, then my points were fine.

[Dabigbom]

Wrong!

Lorewise, all what I have said is true! Speculations are related to actual gameplay mechanics.

How and in what manner will Mythic realize this feature of "caster classes being able to stand a chance in melee combat" is beyond my grasp. What I do know is that if Mythic doesn't stay true to the lore, then WAR will become just a dream. Cause' that's what Games Workshop did, they canceled the old Warhammer Online, because certain aspects weren't on par with the fluff/lore/mechanic etc. Get it? MYTHIC HAS TO MAKE SURE THAT THIS GAME RESPECTS THE WARHAMMER FANTASY UNIVERSE TO IT's FULLEST! GW's fluff is immutable law! It's visage cannot be SIMPLY changed by simple gameplay aspects. Either they remove some aspects or they don't put them in. That's my belief.

Brother Dabigbom's earlier posts was that lore-wise it is quite possible for a Bright Wizard to SURVIVE, not win, a toe-to-toe fight with an Orc. Anaris then pointed out that the Wizard is no where near peak physical condition, that a soldier is better equipped to fight an Orc and survive, blah blah blah.

Long story short, fluff check mate. And I swear to Allah that if I hear anyone in any way say that I, or anyone or anyTHING else here, said that the Bright Wizards are gods of ANYTHING, I will have this thread closed by any means possible.

Exactly. Just because we have embraced this class as a most definite main character on WAR is our business alone. I never have entered any other career topic and started to "OMGZOMGZTHATCLASSRSOOOSUX0RZFO5HOZ!" it.

If you like your career, play it. If you don't, choose something else. If you aren't sure, just shut up and mind your business.

p.s And yes, if this nonsense continues, Garthilik gets a PM to close down any irrelevant topics regarding the Bright Wizard career.

[Oasis]

I'm going to use BW hair as a orange cloak:D

[Taurth]

Wrong!

Lorewise, all what I have said is true! Speculations are related to actual gameplay mechanics.

How and in what manner will Mythic realize this feature of "caster classes being able to stand a chance in melee combat" is beyond my grasp. What I do know is that if Mythic doesn't stay true to the lore, then WAR will become just a dream. Cause' that's what Games Workshop did, they canceled the old Warhammer Online, because certain aspects weren't on par with the fluff/lore/mechanic etc. Get it? MYTHIC HAS TO MAKE SURE THAT THIS GAME RESPECTS THE WARHAMMER FANTASY UNIVERSE TO IT's FULLEST! GW's fluff is immutable law! It's visage cannot be SIMPLY changed by simple gameplay aspects. Either they remove some aspects or they don't put them in. That's my belief.



Exactly. Just because we have embraced this class as a most definite main character on WAR is our business alone. I never have entered any other career topic and started to "OMGZOMGZTHATCLASSRSOOOSUX0RZFO5HOZ!" it.

If you like your career, play it. If you don't, choose something else. If you aren't sure, just shut up and mind your business.

p.s And yes, if this nonsense continues, Garthilik gets a PM to close down any irrelevant topics regarding the Bright Wizard career.

I don't quite understand what your getting at, is me saying that the BW wont be a capable melee fighter made you think that I was somehow saying "OMGZOMGZTHATCLASSRSOOOSUX0RZFO5HOZ!" as you put it? Because I don't think I was.

The fact that you started off by saying that it could be possible that a BW would be a capable melee fighter, then backed it up by lore gave me the impression that your links were being used to justify BW's being good in-game in melee, which I simply said they wouldn't be.

Please don't take it as a personal attack on you or your class. Theres really no need for you two to get so defensive... :?

And the bolded part, sorry but it just wont happen, it may be in the lore that BW's are capable fighters in melee, but it just doesn't make for good game balance. Its like giving a tank class the ability to out-dps or come on a par with the dps of a melee dps character.

[Dabigbom]

The fact that you started off by saying that it could be possible that a BW would be a capable melee fighter, then backed it up by lore gave me the impression that your links were being used to justify BW's being good in-game in melee, which I simply said they wouldn't be.

And the bolded part, sorry but it just wont happen, it may be in the lore that BW's are capable fighters in melee, but it just doesn't make for good game balance. Its like giving a tank class the ability to out-dps or come on a par with the dps of a melee dps character.

1. Yes BW's are capable as melee fighters. Matter o' fact , Paul Barnett himself said that all caster classes in WAR will have some melee prowess.

2. It will happen. Whether you like it or not.

Case closed.

[Feigro]

Here's a bit of a rather recent interview from the toronto gamesday;

Question(not sure who asked) - And given the hybrid nature of class design, and all casters are capable of fighting in melee – is it possible that casters can be very melee focused, or will no matter what they will be fixed on just casting
Richard's answer - If you’re playing a caster class – you’re going to want to play it as a caster… I mean you can get up their and hit people with your staff… But the purpose of the class and what its best at, is going to be the casting

[Scion]

Here's a bit of a rather recent interview from the toronto gamesday;

Yes like I said earlier the Bright Wizard, lore-wise and game-wise, would usually carry a staff. But we get to summon a fiery death sword now sooo...Thank you for the quote anyway ;)

Plus Id like to apologize to Taurth, I was being too defensive :( Just an instinct after arguing with Anaris (and Volcano, or Volcano-boy, Anaris' spunky rebel sidekick) So sorry about that :)

[Taurth]

1. Yes BW's are capable as melee fighters. Matter o' fact , Paul Barnett himself said that all caster classes in WAR will have some melee prowess.

2. It will happen. Whether you like it or not.

Case closed.

Its not whether I like it or not, and I'm not on some personal vendetta against Bright Wizards. Seriously, your a bit naive if you believe that a caster will be able to survive toe-to-toe against a melee dps class and still be the best ranged damage class aswell.

We all know Paul isn't the word of god, he exaggerates things, sure Bright Wizards may have melee abilities, but they wont be able to have a melee scrap with say a Choppa and survive, because it wouldn't work, if thats happening then theres serious balance issues.

Look at the interview with Richard at Gamesday (See Feigro's post) he says that if your a Bright Wizard, your going to want to be in range, which implies they aren't going to be effective in melee, and as you put it, "allow him to survive a possible toe-to-toe with a melee dps class" because if that happens, then melee dps classes are either seriously underpowered, or Bright Wizards are seriously overpowered.

Scion: Cheers for the apology, its okay. The BW fan-boi in you got a little out of control I guess. :rolleyes:

Seriously though, its obvious that Dabigboms' links were being used to back up the fact that he believes that BW's should be capable melee fighters, and not just for lore arguments, as his last few posts have proven.

[Volcano Mentality]

I'm not the one calling you a moron and you say I'm flaming?

Now Im going to say this again in the most straight-forward way I can muster:

Rushing a Bright Wizard, by yourself, as a tank, or a pure DPS, or a ranged class (dont know why you would rush as a ranged class but still) will get you killed. Why? Because its LOGICAL. LOGIC would dictate that if you're stupid enough to run flat out at an idle Bright Wizard, who can easily just stand there and pump fiery death in your direction, you deserve to die. The Bright Wizard is THE ranged DPS dealer on the Order side, meaning that if he cant drop 1 enemy, rushing at him from even a moderate range, something is seriously wrong with the class. Blowing every single cooldown and throwing every spell at something just to kill them is just plain unbalanced, sorry, but if Im choosing a class that has minimal defenses and little to no melee capabilities I better be able to defeat someone that crazy with ease. In a 1 on 1 scenario, the BEST Bright Wizard will win against the BEST Choppa. Why you may ask? Well because we're the best blah blah blah.

I ask you this, if the Choppa can rush a Bright Wizard 1 vs. 1 and survive and win, why play Bright Wizard? Why not just play the class who can rush past the best damage dealer and 1-2-3 shot him? Comeon be reasonable, we have minimal defenses and are about as big as a target can be, do you seriously think others should be able to survive a full barrage of our best?

Ok now in your format:

One-on-One:
Bright Wizard WILL kill a melee character quickly before he gets close, as once there he will die very quickly himself. This, however, IS easy, but the BW must use most/all of his cool downs to burst his enemy down, which defeats the purpose of them being effective in an RvR situation if they cant drop 1 enemy without extreme measures.

RvR:
They hide behind a tank and dish out death. Of course, not very efficient death, his teammates will obviously be doing all the actual damage...

Strengths:
Burst damage, DoT damage, AoE damage, Debuffs, Buffs.

Weaknesses:
Can take few direct hits, vulnerable to other ranged class.


P.S. If you were using logic by your definition you would be winning the argument, but you arent, you're going in freakin circles and the only reason why Im even posting here is because I need the laughs at the end of the day.

Just shut up with the insults. I'm f***in' done with it. It gets us nowhere. And btw, your entire Post Script is a flame, as is your "Volcano-boy" remark, so yes, you ARE flaming. Now please, have some common decency and let this end now. You get the last word of it and you should be happy.

Changing subject...

You can't leave the decision of who wins up to the two of us; both of our answers will be heavily biased.

The way I'm explaining one-on-one is that a Bright Wizard will burst his enemy to hell, paining him greatly. BUT, he wont have a guaranteed win. That's WoW's greatest mistake in my opinion (one class always beating another). It's quite possible for on-on-one to occur (say, at the slow hours of the day, when two soloers happen upon each other; the PvP areas aren't too small for this to be feasible), and in those situations, a meleer shouldn't be condemned to death or flight. That's just your fanboy side talking.

Logically, the meleer shouldn't have to burn all of his cooldowns because he has to get in range first; a dreadfully painful task. The sprint ability will be key here, which from the videos I've seen is available to all melee classes and possibly even casters. It drains Action Points though, so it should also be feasible that a Bright Wizard should be weak enough to die from one-two basic great-weapon strikes, or two-four light weapon strikes, as by the time the enemy gets close, he's got no AP and is nearly dead.

The BW should have to burn most/all of his cooldowns to kill his opponent becuase he doesn't Sprint during the fight and his enemy can take the hits better than he.

In short, if the two characters are equal in skill, equipment, and terrain, the battle should come down to range. If the meleer is really close, he'll win unless the BW bolts his arse out. If the meleer is really far, then he will lose unless HE bolts HIS arse out.

P.S. Sorry if I'm missed anything in the other posts, I didn't read 'em.

[Volcano Mentality]

Beside the useless bickering, the Volcano guy is right.
But this is ofcourse with equal equipment and realm rank etc, and you never have PURE 1 VS 1 because someone will most likely get the jump or has an advantage in terrain.
Hurray, I have support! Thanks for the back up, and I know this bickering is entire pointless; I just got angry and Scion decided to goad me on. It should be over now.

[Volcano Mentality]

If people have trouble distinguishing what another says they shouldnt blindly attack it with the first properly formed thought that comes into their head, they should post asking what context its being used in.

First of all, YOU'VE DONE IT YOURSELF!!! We weren't on the same page at all for half the thread, yet we still attacked each other. Don't be a hypocrite.

Secondly, I believe that a BW should be capable of melee, but either he is dreadfully weak (he might finish an enemy off with a quick slap from his staff if he the guy gets in melee range before dying, but that's about it), or he sacrifices his ranged capabilities almost entirely for good melee (the BW will destroy people at close range, and survive for a short while under pressure, but his fireball spell deals less damage than a melee attack). Balanced, as I've been promoting throughout the entire thread.

Thirdly, Taurth has a good point. You can't say "because it's in the lore, it's in the game." Lore has heroes, the game doesn't. In Lore, the recieving end of the hero's destruction isn't another person, and therefore it has no say in the matter and feels no anger at being owned by default. If you're gonna use lore, use it for something viable, like possible abilities that could be used in-game, or what a class's role should be in-game. Saying that "a Bright Wizard in the Lore totally pwnzrd a Black Orc in melee combat, so why can't I in the game?" is like saying "the Chaos Chosen in the cinematic killed the Warrior Priest, so I should always beat them too!" It just WONT WORK!

The biggest problem I'm seeing here, and I'm not being at all insulting with this, is that all of you are being rather selfish. You want to win, and so you make every excuse why YOUR class of choice should be supreme, completely blowing off the thought that everyone playing another class will feel cheated and underpowered. You're not the only one's who want to win, and you aren't the only ones who should win. EVERYTHING should be based on skill, not class.

P.S. Sorry about multi-posting, I don't know how to multi-quote yet and don't really care enough to actively find out how. If anyone feels like letting me know though, please send me a PM.

[Scion]

Ok, ignoring everything else that is offtopic, Im going to address the following statement:

In short, if the two characters are equal in skill, equipment, and terrain, the battle should come down to range. If the meleer is really close, he'll win unless the BW bolts his arse out. If the meleer is really far, then he will lose unless HE bolts HIS arse out.

The Bright Wizard ISNT equal in equipment, in fact he's probably the lightest armoured DPS'er in the game so far. The Choppa, the Orc DPS'er, is supposed to have medium armour, meaning he will do less damage than the Wizard. And at Tier IV, if Im a Wizard I had better be able to drop one enemy at any range (aside from toe-to-toe) with ease, if I truly am blowing ALL my cooldowns. If an enemy can sprint past or around or through my BEST attacks, that would just be silly. I really am sorry but you're wrong, its never going to be equal. In the scenerio set down, an Orc and Wizard at moderate range, the Wizard will win. As I said, if the Orc can survive a full barrage from my light armoured, low health mega damage dealer, I'll just quit the class and play the Orc. The Wizards weakness is more than 1 enemy rushing him, and other ranged classes, in 1vs1 he should be able to blow the crap out of anything with warning.

[Volcano Mentality]

The Bright Wizard ISNT equal in equipment, in fact he's probably the lightest armoured DPS'er in the game so far.

When I said that their equipment is equal, I meant in terms of tiers. So, going off of the balance in both characters having Tier VI armor/weapons, then I would consider them equal. Sorry for the ambiguity there.

I still don't see how I'm wrong. Perhaps the "blow all cooldowns" is a bit overdone, but the main point I'm trying to get at is that 1v1 and RvR should be balanced, with any class being capable of killing any class.

Again I say, the deciding factors of such a fight should be determined by starting range. What I've seen quite often is people saying a GOOD Bright Wizard could easily kill any enemy, but that just seems very unbalanced. The BW shouldn't decide the fight, it should be split between both players. A GOOD Choppa should be able to take down a GOOD Bright Wizard as easily as a GOOD Bright Wizard should be able to take down a GOOD Choppa. THAT'S what I call balance.

P.S. Thank you for avoiding insults.

[Scion]

When I said that their equipment is equal, I meant in terms of tiers. So, going off of the balance in both characters having Tier VI armor/weapons, then I would consider them equal. Sorry for the ambiguity there.

I still don't see how I'm wrong. Perhaps the "blow all cooldowns" is a bit overdone, but the main point I'm trying to get at is that 1v1 and RvR should be balanced, with any class being capable of killing any class.

Again I say, the deciding factors of such a fight should be determined by starting range. What I've seen quite often is people saying a GOOD Bright Wizard could easily kill any enemy, but that just seems very unbalanced. The BW shouldn't decide the fight, it should be split between both players. A GOOD Choppa should be able to take down a GOOD Bright Wizard as easily as a GOOD Bright Wizard should be able to take down a GOOD Choppa. THAT'S what I call balance.

P.S. Thank you for avoiding insults.

My point is that its still unfair from my point of view. If a Choppa is closing in on a Wizard in clear view, thats the Wizards element and he should win, but you say no he can actually make it up close despite every attack thrown at him and still be able to out-melee and chop the Wizards head off. Im not trying to make it out as if the Wizard can win any battle scenario except being rushed by a full team of people or being ambushed and quickly taken out, my point is simply at a decent range we have more of a chance of winning than we do of losing. If our fireballs fail our DoT's will ensure that after we die, they die as well. Bright Wizards arent designed for single combat, some *could* consider it imbalanced if the Wizard can destroy most close-range enemies by unleashing their powers at a distance, but I dont. I call that game logic.

No single enemy should be able to withstand a Bright Wizards attack and still be able to beat him close range. Just like no caster should be able to withstand a Choppa's attack and escape to beat him at far range. Thats just how I see it. :( What we can agree on is range is the deciding factor. I disagree with your logic but we arent invulnerable, we simply fair better with certain opponents than others, we would quickly die against other ranged attackers if they attacked first. Its like RvR rock, paper, scissors. A team has to be balanced to withstand the enemies attack, hence why the Wizard, in all his 1vs1 glory will quickly die if he's targeted first.

[Volcano Mentality]

Its like RvR rock, paper, scissors.
This was used in WoW, and it's what caused so many Warriors crying "OP!!!" on casters, casters crying "OP!!!" on Rogues, and Rogues crying "OP!!!" on Warriors.

I agree with you that at moderate range a BW should win, because a meleer can't get in range in time, but at close range a meleer should win and at the middle point between the two it's anyone's game.

One idea you brought up that I hadn't thought of until now though, and thanks for bringing it up, is the idea of stealth. THAT could also be a large deciding factor, considering the WAR dev's give us enough foliage and terrain to use as cover (from what I've seen, no one is capable of invisibility, so cover will be necessary). So then, any time a player enters the RvR areas, they can either choose to dumbly charge around the battlefields in the open, or cleverly find cover where it can be found and try to get the jump on their enemies. THAT WOULD BE SO AWSOME!!!

[Taurth]

Ok, ignoring everything else that is offtopic, Im going to address the following statement:



The Bright Wizard ISNT equal in equipment, in fact he's probably the lightest armoured DPS'er in the game so far. The Choppa, the Orc DPS'er, is supposed to have medium armour, meaning he will do less damage than the Wizard. And at Tier IV, if Im a Wizard I had better be able to drop one enemy at any range (aside from toe-to-toe) with ease, if I truly am blowing ALL my cooldowns. If an enemy can sprint past or around or through my BEST attacks, that would just be silly. I really am sorry but you're wrong, its never going to be equal. In the scenerio set down, an Orc and Wizard at moderate range, the Wizard will win. As I said, if the Orc can survive a full barrage from my light armoured, low health mega damage dealer, I'll just quit the class and play the Orc. The Wizards weakness is more than 1 enemy rushing him, and other ranged classes, in 1vs1 he should be able to blow the crap out of anything with warning.

This is something I personally don't agree with.

In my opinion, the Choppa should have more, or atleast the same dps as a Bright Wizard, since the Bright Wizard has the advantage of being a ranged class and out of the main fights. Thats the reason his armor isn't so great, because he's less likely to get targeted than a melee dps class would be.

A Choppa has to get in melee range, and still has the disadvantages of having low armor, so he's going to go down fast, where as the Bright Wizard has low armor, but he's way out of the way, firing his fire bolts and picking people off.

[Azrayne2.0]

Thats the reason his armor isn't so great, because he's less likely to get targeted than a melee dps class would be.

You're joking right? :|

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you never RvR'd to any great extent in DAoC as a caster?

Personally I feel that the caster should have, overall, higher DPS than our hypothetical Choppa, due to the inherently less consistant nature of his DPS, and his low surviveability. Bear in mind that a Choppa, once he gets his target, will keep going until he gets peeled off, his target dies, or he does. A caster will have to stop DPSing as soon as he gets attacked and kite away, or risk a quick and painful death.

Personally, I feel:

Casters/Ranged (Magus, Bright Wizard, Squig Herder, Engineer)

Melee (Choppa, Witch Hunter, Marauder, Hammerer)

Tanks (Black Orc, KoTBS, Chosen, Ironbreaker)
Tied with -
Healers (Shaman, Zealot, Warrior Priest, Rune Priest)

Should be a rough guide to the order of DPS.

[Taurth]

You're joking right? :|

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you never RvR'd to any great extent in DAoC as a caster?

Personally I feel that the caster should have, overall, higher DPS than our hypothetical Choppa, due to the inherently less consistant nature of his DPS, and his low surviveability. Bear in mind that a Choppa, once he gets his target, will keep going until he gets peeled off, his target dies, or he does. A caster will have to stop DPSing as soon as he gets attacked and kite away, or risk a quick and painful death.

Personally, I feel:

Casters/Ranged (Magus, Bright Wizard, Squig Herder, Engineer)

Melee (Choppa, Witch Hunter, Marauder, Hammerer)

Tanks (Black Orc, KoTBS, Chosen, Ironbreaker)
Tied with -
Healers (Shaman, Zealot, Warrior Priest, Rune Priest)

Should be a rough guide to the order of DPS.

Can't say I have. But considering collision dictation, I'd assume that it'd be reasonably easy for a caster to stay away from the melee dps and be able to pick them off from a distance.

I believe casters should have higher burst dps, compared to the Choppa which would have more consistent but overall higher dps.

And you say that a Choppa will keep on dpsing until his target is dead, or he is, but then you say that a caster would have to kite the Choppa. This doesn't make sense, because if the caster has the ability to kite, then the Choppa isn't going to be doing any damage atall, and the caster wont have to "peel him off" because he'll be too far away to do any damage anyway. So basically the caster will be able to kite him about and the Choppa will die withought doing a jot of damage. If kiting is possible, then I believe thats another reason for melee dpsers to have higher dps.

Although this is speculation, it could turn out that its relatively easy to get to casters and target them first, as I haven't played DAoC, but it could be the opposite.

[Azrayne2.0]

Can't say I have. But considering collision dictation, I'd assume that it'd be reasonably easy for a caster to stay away from the melee dps and be able to pick them off from a distance.

Collision detection isn't going to mean anything at all, because casters are usually standing away from the fight somewhat casting into it.

And you say that a Choppa will keep on dpsing until his target is dead, or he is, but then you say that a caster would have to kite the Choppa.

Let's imagine this scenario. Two groups of good players run at eachother. They all split off, tanks assist and start training down DPS, healers start healing and supporting and whatever it is they do, casters run off to the side, select a suitably flammeable target and start blasting.

Now imagine the enemy group decides to shut down the wizard. All they have to do is start charging at him, and unless he realises what's going on and moves away, he's going to be very dead, very quick. As soon as he's being hit from a range, he can't cast effectively, as soon as he gets melee on him, he's fuxed. So his best option is to cast any defensive spells he has, drop any quick snares/roots and run in the other direction, either way, he's doing 0 DPS at the time.

On the other hand, imagine the enemy group decided to shut down the chopper. If they do this by DPSing, ok, he just keeps on whacking his target until either it does or the enemies DPS through his heals. Even if he gets hit by a snare/root, he's still able to keep hitting until his target moves out of range, and even then his target will have to keep moving to keep the distance, or it will only take our Choppa a couple moments to catch up, thereby keeping consistant DPS up on the target or occupying them in such a manner that they're fairly ineffective anyway.

See what I'm getting at? It's all theoretical ok, but it's the best we have.

Although this is speculation, it could turn out that its relatively easy to get to casters and target them first, as I haven't played DAoC, but it could be the opposite.

Hint: Melee/tanks are almost always the last ones a group tries to kill, if that answers you question. They go for healers(because no healers = your screwed) and casters (because they drop so quickly, and have to stop DPSing to kite and run away as soon as they're under attack).

[Taurth]

Collision detection isn't going to mean anything at all, because casters are usually standing away from the fight somewhat casting into it.



Let's imagine this scenario. Two groups of good players run at eachother. They all split off, tanks assist and start training down DPS, healers start healing and supporting and whatever it is they do, casters run off to the side, select a suitably flammeable target and start blasting.

Now imagine the enemy group decides to shut down the wizard. All they have to do is start charging at him, and unless he realises what's going on and moves away, he's going to be very dead, very quick. As soon as he's being hit from a range, he can't cast effectively, as soon as he gets melee on him, he's fuxed. So his best option is to cast any defensive spells he has, drop any quick snares/roots and run in the other direction, either way, he's doing 0 DPS at the time.

On the other hand, imagine the enemy group decided to shut down the chopper. If they do this by DPSing, ok, he just keeps on whacking his target until either it does or the enemies DPS through his heals. Even if he gets hit by a snare/root, he's still able to keep hitting until his target moves out of range, and even then his target will have to keep moving to keep the distance, or it will only take our Choppa a couple moments to catch up, thereby keeping consistant DPS up on the target or occupying them in such a manner that they're fairly ineffective anyway.

See what I'm getting at? It's all theoretical ok, but it's the best we have.



Hint: Melee/tanks are almost always the last ones a group tries to kill, if that answers you question. They go for healers(because no healers = your screwed) and casters (because they drop so quickly, and have to stop DPSing to kite and run away as soon as they're under attack).

Your assuming that kiting wont be a viable way to take out melee withought taking any damage.

Sure if the only kite abilities you have don't do any damage then your just runing away, fair enough, but if you have a few instant spells, maybe dots or whatever, you can completely shut down the melee dpser, taking down his health whilst he cant do anything against you.

Were both just guessing now anyway, either of us could be right.

[Anaris]

Collision detection isn't going to mean anything at all, because casters are usually standing away from the fight somewhat casting into it.

that's silly - use the collision detection to shield yourself!

Let's imagine this scenario. Two groups of good players run at eachother. They all split off, tanks assist and start training down DPS, healers start healing and supporting and whatever it is they do, casters run off to the side, select a suitably flammeable target and start blasting.

okay much as i hate these words, this isn't WoW. 'cause apparently, healers aren't losers now.

Now imagine the enemy group decides to shut down the wizard. All they have to do is start charging at him, and unless he realises what's going on and moves away, he's going to be very dead, very quick. As soon as he's being hit from a range, he can't cast effectively, as soon as he gets melee on him, he's fuxed. So his best option is to cast any defensive spells he has, drop any quick snares/roots and run in the other direction, either way, he's doing 0 DPS at the time.

okay, that's not true. look at DOTs, roots and snares with damage, instant casts, defensive spells that do damage - remember that a Bright is all about damage, i would imagine that all of his abilities, even the protective ones, will end up doing SOMETHING.

On the other hand, imagine the enemy group decided to shut down the chopper. If they do this by DPSing, ok, he just keeps on whacking his target until either it does or the enemies DPS through his heals. Even if he gets hit by a snare/root, he's still able to keep hitting until his target moves out of range, and even then his target will have to keep moving to keep the distance, or it will only take our Choppa a couple moments to catch up, thereby keeping consistant DPS up on the target or occupying them in such a manner that they're fairly ineffective anyway.

okay, i'm assuming a choppa will run at the same speed as his target, so how the heck will he catch up if he's been rooted or snared? even one second headstart makes you one second ahead for all time. a choppa may Sprint for longer than a Bright, but that means your dps isn't really a huge issue 'cause you just dragged out a simple pvp kill into an hour-long benny hill chase back and forth across the battleground, taking the choppa out of the fight as well. sure, he'll catch up eventually - and i would hope that by that time you'd have figured out what you were going to do to him.

See what I'm getting at? It's all theoretical ok, but it's the best we have.

i think this is too DAoC, too WoW. i think a different playstyle may come out. but, again, that's all theoretical and i can't know.

Hint: Melee/tanks are almost always the last ones a group tries to kill, if that answers you question. They go for healers(because no healers = your screwed) and casters (because they drop so quickly, and have to stop DPSing to kite and run away as soon as they're under attack).

collision detection means that all you have to do is keep your dps and your healers behind you and suddenly your foe HAS to kill meleeers first. imagine a shield-wall of Hammerers... oooh.

[Azrayne2.0]

How on earth do you expect the collision detection thing to work?

Let's say we have a group of 6:

Tank
Melee
Melee
Caster
Healer
Healer

How exactly do you propose that the 3 melee characters obstruct their enemies access entirely to those last three, and still provide DPS/whatever it is they do. Enemies will just run around or used ranged, and you'll die just the same.

CD will just be a small annoyance in most situations, don't expect some kind of revolution of group PvP with it. It won't mean much in the long run, at least not in these sorts of situations.


Where it 'will' make a difference is fighting in enclosed spaces. Keeps, Towers, Bridges, dungeons, whatever. It will make it possible to effectively shut off passage by forming a wall of tanks which can stick together in a close knit format and continue to move forward and attack their enemies at the same time.

[Anaris]

How on earth do you expect the collision detection thing to work?

Let's say we have a group of 6:

okay firstly, i'd just like to point out that if this game's average fight is a mere six on six, it's been seriously oversold.

Tank
Melee
Melee
Caster
Healer
Healer

How exactly do you propose that the 3 melee characters obstruct their enemies access entirely to those last three, and still provide DPS/whatever it is they do. Enemies will just run around or used ranged, and you'll die just the same.

uh, move to stay between their targets and their wards, while their wards move in the same manner? i could do it easily in WoW if it had collision detection - i've played a melee character, running intercept for the mages. heck, i've played a mage running intercept for the healers too. it's just that in WoW you intercept using roots and stuns, whereas in WAR i'd like to see someone charging at a wizard and then a big guy just runs in in front of him and smacks him to the floor. i thought that was obvious... also, i'd expect the average group in this game to be a little more tank-heavy - from what i gather, it's not like WoW where a tank can't fight worth a damn, so he's a more viable option if what you want is protection for your clothies.

now, ranged is different - i'd expect ranged to be the bane of casters, just like it is in WoW. and, just like it is in WoW, i'd expect to have to outrange, keep mobile and basically outdps a class who has comparable or even higher dps because of the interrupts.

that's a point actually, we're assuming WoW-style 'if you're being hit you can't cast', right?

i'd also like to see knockbacks and stuff for moving people - if they're where you don't want them to be, whack them until they're out of there.

i'd like to think a more viable alternative for a Bright being meleed would be to trigger the Flaming Sword, hit the Choppa a couple of times while he waits for a tank to stun the Choppa long enough for the Bright to back off and get back to work. that's better teamwork than kiting, which is a very WoW-style "i'm a soloer" move. i think the Bright should die unaided, but i think a better way for him to deal with the "kiting = 0 dps" problem would be to not kite. it's not a very Bright Wizard thing to do, apart from anything else.

[Azrayne2.0]

okay firstly, i'd just like to point out that if this game's average fight is a mere six on six, it's been seriously oversold.

It's what the group size is, and that's what it comes down to, usually. Competative players will form groups of whatever the size is restricted to, and fight eachother.


uh, move to stay between their targets and their wards, while their wards move in the same manner? i could do it easily in WoW if it had collision detection - i've played a melee character, running intercept for the mages. heck, i've played a mage running intercept for the healers too. it's just that in WoW you intercept using roots and stuns, whereas in WAR i'd like to see someone charging at a wizard and then a big guy just runs in in front of him and smacks him to the floor. i thought that was obvious... also, i'd expect the average group in this game to be a little more tank-heavy - from what i gather, it's not like WoW where a tank can't fight worth a damn, so he's a more viable option if what you want is protection for your clothies.

i'd also like to see knockbacks and stuff for moving people - if they're where you don't want them to be, whack them until they're out of there.



Now something like that, perhaps, would work, a combination of CD/stuns/knockback type abilities, but CD alone isn't going to allow a tank to just stand there and block off access to their casters/healers.

[Taurth]

Well, we already know about a lot of knockback abilities, and tanks have a lot of defensive abilities to defend their squishy allies.

Such as the Black Orcs ability to throw an ally out of the way to stop them from being battered to death by charging enemies. ;)

[Dabigbom]

Same.

Lore wise, melee casters are possible, gameplay wise, not sure. SPECULATION!!!

Seriously though, its obvious that Dabigboms' links were being used to back up the fact that he believes that BW's should be capable melee fighters, and not just for lore arguments, as his last few posts have proven.

As long as I got fluff on my side then yeah, BW's should be capable meleers, if not, hey it's no problem, but to me that would yet another MMO archetype. "Oooh lemme' stand back an' cast some spells fer' ye m'kay?" - Pansy leprechaun mage

I mean then wtf am I playing Warhammer if my career doesn't have skills from both types of combat? WTF IS THE DIVERSITY? Damn some people are narrow minded....

Secondly, I believe that a BW should be capable of melee, but either he is dreadfully weak (he might finish an enemy off with a quick slap from his staff if he the guy gets in melee range before dying, but that's about it), or he sacrifices his ranged capabilities almost entirely for good melee (the BW will destroy people at close range, and survive for a short while under pressure, but his fireball spell deals less damage than a melee attack). Balanced, as I've been promoting throughout the entire thread.

YES FINALLY! Well OFFC BW's won't be like samurai warrior, but at least they should be able to hold back tankers or melee dps-ers for a short period of time e.g Flaming Sword of Rhuin acting as a sort of a melee finisher.

Thirdly, Taurth has a good point. You can't say "because it's in the lore, it's in the game." Lore has heroes, the game doesn't. In Lore, the recieving end of the hero's destruction isn't another person, and therefore it has no say in the matter and feels no anger at being owned by default. If you're gonna use lore, use it for something viable, like possible abilities that could be used in-game, or what a class's role should be in-game. Saying that "a Bright Wizard in the Lore totally pwnzrd a Black Orc in melee combat, so why can't I in the game?" is like saying "the Chaos Chosen in the cinematic killed the Warrior Priest, so I should always beat them too!" It just WONT WORK!

In no way did anyone say that BW's pwnz0r3d the Black Orc in melee. Hell, if that Black Orc gets near me then i'm dead instantly. But I should have some way of melee resistance. As in a small damage factor that might give me an advantage if I know how to exploit the Black Orcs weaknesses.

My point is that its still unfair from my point of view. If a Choppa is closing in on a Wizard in clear view, thats the Wizards element and he should win, but you say no he can actually make it up close despite every attack thrown at him and still be able to out-melee and chop the Wizards head off. Im not trying to make it out as if the Wizard can win any battle scenario except being rushed by a full team of people or being ambushed and quickly taken out, my point is simply at a decent range we have more of a chance of winning than we do of losing. If our fireballs fail our DoT's will ensure that after we die, they die as well. Bright Wizards arent designed for single combat, some *could* consider it imbalanced if the Wizard can destroy most close-range enemies by unleashing their powers at a distance, but I dont. I call that game logic.

No single enemy should be able to withstand a Bright Wizards attack and still be able to beat him close range. Just like no caster should be able to withstand a Choppa's attack and escape to beat him at far range. Thats just how I see it. What we can agree on is range is the deciding factor. I disagree with your logic but we arent invulnerable, we simply fair better with certain opponents than others, we would quickly die against other ranged attackers if they attacked first. Its like RvR rock, paper, scissors. A team has to be balanced to withstand the enemies attack, hence why the Wizard, in all his 1vs1 glory will quickly die if he's targeted first.

Range counts, but I want my enemy to think smart, as in "wait a minute, if I go in mid field that BW will burn my arse in 2 seconds, why don't I find a crowdy place to draw him in and safely take him down without being afraid to get mega dps'ed." - 1 vs 1 scenario

Basically all from what I've gathered, WAR will have caster classes with some small melee potency, but also melee/tanker classes will have certain skills which can impair/hamper/prevent 1st spell triggers from casters in order to get near enough for the kill. That's what Mythic promised to do and I really want to see if they can pull it off.

[Anaris]

It's what the group size is, and that's what it comes down to, usually. Competative players will form groups of whatever the size is restricted to, and fight eachother.

okay, fair point - i haven't read any of the released material about this game...

i just figured RvR would usually consist of much bigger forces, making it more practical to run something like a Raid group on WoW - so you'd have a six-man tank unit, a six-man caster unit elsewhere, that sort of thing.

Now something like that, perhaps, would work, a combination of CD/stuns/knockback type abilities, but CD alone isn't going to allow a tank to just stand there and block off access to their casters/healers.

no, i agree - i'd jump over the tanks' heads. but a tank CAN put himself in the way of a charge, and if he's got those abilities he can not merely hold it up but stop it entirely.

[Taurth]

YES FINALLY! Well OFFC BW's won't be like samurai warrior, but at least they should be able to hold back tankers or melee dps-ers for a short period of time e.g Flaming Sword of Rhuin acting as a sort of a melee finisher.

Its fair enough wanting stuff like that, but you'd have to loose ranged power or it wouldn't be balanced.

If you had the capability of fending off someone in melee for however long, then you'd have to sacrifice some of that "mega dps".

You cant really have both or its just unfair.

[Scion]

Its fair enough wanting stuff like that, but you'd have to loose ranged power or it wouldn't be balanced.

If you had the capability of fending off someone in melee for however long, then you'd have to sacrifice some of that "mega dps".

You cant really have both or its just unfair.

AGREED. Thats why we have the 7 seven keys, our respective fields. It would be pretty cool if Wizards could actually be designed as a rogue of some sort, get in quick with flashy fire moves, slice and dice and run out before anyone knows whats happened. Not that I would ever, ever play my Wizard that way (not enough BOOM!!!) but its a possibility.

[Volcano Mentality]

How on earth do you expect the collision detection thing to work?

Let's say we have a group of 6:

Tank
Melee
Melee
Caster
Healer
Healer

How exactly do you propose that the 3 melee characters obstruct their enemies access entirely to those last three, and still provide DPS/whatever it is they do. Enemies will just run around or used ranged, and you'll die just the same.

CD will just be a small annoyance in most situations, don't expect some kind of revolution of group PvP with it. It won't mean much in the long run, at least not in these sorts of situations.


Where it 'will' make a difference is fighting in enclosed spaces. Keeps, Towers, Bridges, dungeons, whatever. It will make it possible to effectively shut off passage by forming a wall of tanks which can stick together in a close knit format and continue to move forward and attack their enemies at the same time.
WARNING: Incoming multi-post!

If you're talking about the order side as it is, then the healers will be up front as well, as both the Warrior Priest and the Rune Priest are melee oriented. So you've got a big wall of meleers and one BW in the back. With collision detection, bottle-necking enemies is key. And, if the terrain is too open, create a cirlce defense around the squishy BW and blamo! You've got a powerhouse of a group!

[Volcano Mentality]

i'd also like to see knockbacks and stuff for moving people - if they're where you don't want them to be, whack them until they're out of there.
That's a GREAT idea. Though, I'd have to say, only for meleers. If a BW can push his enemies away, he'd be a bit OP cause then he'd be able to burst his enemy until he closes in, push him away, then blast him again.

However, a meleer should be capable of pushing an enemy away to either A) Keep him away from his squishies, B) Force them back to the front to protect him from the bonus damage of getting hit from behind, or C) If you're in trouble and getting out damaged, you can find a suitably long drop and push him over it! DEATH BY FALL DAMAGE, MWAHAHA!!!:p

[Volcano Mentality]

AGREED. Thats why we have the 7 seven keys, our respective fields. It would be pretty cool if Wizards could actually be designed as a rogue of some sort, get in quick with flashy fire moves, slice and dice and run out before anyone knows whats happened. Not that I would ever, ever play my Wizard that way (not enough BOOM!!!) but its a possibility.
If you can do that, I just might roll a BW alt (I've always loved a melee class with magical assistance). It'd be so fun to pop out of some nearby thicket, drop a bomb in the middle of the enemy group, rush their backs for melee bonus damage and some fiery after effects from my Fiery Death Sword, then call down a rain of fire from the heavens to continue the barrage while I run my arse off, leaving them scared and confused while my buddies close in to finish the job. :D

[Dabigbom]

ts fair enough wanting stuff like that, but you'd have to loose ranged power or it wouldn't be balanced.

If you had the capability of fending off someone in melee for however long, then you'd have to sacrifice some of that "mega dps".

You cant really have both or its just unfair.

True.

AGREED. Thats why we have the 7 seven keys, our respective fields. It would be pretty cool if Wizards could actually be designed as a rogue of some sort, get in quick with flashy fire moves, slice and dice and run out before anyone knows whats happened. Not that I would ever, ever play my Wizard that way (not enough BOOM!!!) but its a possibility.

Now that's a thing I wouldn't want to see in game. Still the 7 Keys could be used for other purposes e.g stunning, dazing an enemy or even fast escaping from a fight...

[Seademond]

It's been confirmed we get a flaming sword?
Link me!


Also I see collission detection just adding an extra layer of strategy to the game and so long as you're able to move charachters....I don't see a problem with it period.

[Dallyoop]

I'd rather play well, 'survive' and still take down tons of enemies ;)

Remember, a dead wizard does no DPS.

BEEP! WRONG! bright wizards explode when they die, therefore... we DO do DPS when we die!!! :razz: :rolleyes: :cool:

[PurpleAvenger]

I'm sorry but the topic of the post is just plain stupid. It is. It really... just is.

The chances of 1v1s even being in the GAME is still being debated. And dueling doesn't matter. Oh, and if you think "meeting somebody on the battlefield 1v1" is going to matter, then thats just stupid. 99.999999% of the time somebodies going to have an advantage, be it HP, Action, Morale, Terrain or frigging little happy bunny slippers of the damned. Honestly, as a Bright Wizard, I would give up 100% of my dueling ability in RVR for a small (.5%+) boost in group RVR. Do you know why? Because not a *single point* will be one based on my single toons dueling e-peen. And if a meele toon has gotten through our line to me, something is already VERY wrong. So you all can shove this inane argument about meele v range v support v cookie v blue argument where the sun don't shine because it will NEVER matter.

[Anaris]

this thread died four months ago

so basically...

you just came in to a long-dead thread and told everyone to stop discussing it because you're a massive arse who doesn't want to engage in discussion but would rather just force everyone to conform to your ideal standards, even though they're probably wrong.

[PurpleAvenger]

this thread died four months ago

so basically...

you just came in to a long-dead thread and told everyone to stop discussing it because you're a massive arse who doesn't want to engage in discussion but would rather just force everyone to conform to your ideal standards, even though they're probably wrong.

I honestly didn't check the post dates and I'm sorry for that. I'm more used to posting in active forums where posts 3-4 pages in are still relatively recent. If you want this to stay dead, just leave it, but theres no need to insult my intelligence or my opinions based on a simple misreading of a post date. Anyways, if the rest of the community feels that this argument has been laid to rest (or simply been beaten to death), then it can be left to die and I won't bother with it anymore.

[Feigro]

Oh... hey, wasn't there some pesky debate about Bright Wizard Melee capabilities going on in this thread?

Fuel for the fire (http://war.warcry.com/images/view/28821)

[Anaris]

I honestly didn't check the post dates and I'm sorry for that. I'm more used to posting in active forums where posts 3-4 pages in are still relatively recent. If you want this to stay dead, just leave it, but theres no need to insult my intelligence or my opinions based on a simple misreading of a post date. Anyways, if the rest of the community feels that this argument has been laid to rest (or simply been beaten to death), then it can be left to die and I won't bother with it anymore.

i'm insulting your opinions and intelligence based on your attempt to restrict my right to discuss whatever the hell i want by attacking it as "stupid" and saying we can shove it up our arses. read the sig.

i don't mind if this stays dead - it already was. i don't mind if the discussion is revived or moved elsewhere. doesn't matter. but please don't tell people what to discuss, especially in such an insulting manner.

[Dabigbom]

I'm sorry but the topic of the post is just plain stupid. It is. It really... just is.

The chances of 1v1s even being in the GAME is still being debated. And dueling doesn't matter. Oh, and if you think "meeting somebody on the battlefield 1v1" is going to matter, then thats just stupid. 99.999999% of the time somebodies going to have an advantage, be it HP, Action, Morale, Terrain or frigging little happy bunny slippers of the damned. Honestly, as a Bright Wizard, I would give up 100% of my dueling ability in RVR for a small (.5%+) boost in group RVR. Do you know why? Because not a *single point* will be one based on my single toons dueling e-peen. And if a meele toon has gotten through our line to me, something is already VERY wrong. So you all can shove this inane argument about meele v range v support v cookie v blue argument where the sun don't shine because it will NEVER matter.

A disgrace to the robes you are.

[Flegler]

Oh... hey, wasn't there some pesky debate about Bright Wizard Melee capabilities going on in this thread?

Fuel for the fire (http://war.warcry.com/images/view/28821)

50 Action Points per second? How many does each player get? At first glance, this seems like an exceptionally bad ability.

[Feigro]

500 at the moment, so that'd be 9-10 seconds depending on when the first tick hits.

[Gemini]

Depends on how high is very high. Seems like it could be good for a last-ditch, do-or-die skill.

[Grungas Ironnose]

That is why I prefer tanks. Slower, safer, but still bloody badass!!!

[Chiros]

My Lord has worked his craft well here.

[Taurth]

Was it really neccesssary to resurrect a 2 month old thread for that?

[Azrayne2.0]

Thats a pretty cool ability actually. Kind of a last ditch 'ok I have a bunch of melee on me and my target is down to 20% but I'm getting interrupted too much to actually get any casts off' thing, so you bust out the flaming staff and go at them.

Kind of have to wonder how many situations will exist where it will be more useful than using that AP for CC/instant damage though, given the high AP cost and the fact that it stunts AP regen after it wears off. The idea is cool in theory though.

[Nightz]

Thats a pretty cool ability actually. Kind of a last ditch 'ok I have a bunch of melee on me and my target is down to 20% but I'm getting interrupted too much to actually get any casts off' thing, so you bust out the flaming staff and go at them.

Kind of have to wonder how many situations will exist where it will be more useful than using that AP for CC/instant damage though, given the high AP cost and the fact that it stunts AP regen after it wears off. The idea is cool in theory though.

yeah or if your dueling someone 1v1 (just a possiblitiy duels haven been confirmed i dont think at least) or just in 1v1 it would be a cool finisher if your beating the crap out of them or if you cant get range on a melee class just finish off with a flaming staff of doom :p