How is the Runepriest not just a Priest?

[JonoLith]

I just watched a video that showed some of the abilities of all the classes for the dwarf and greenskins and something REALLY stuck out to me. I was told by many people that the healer's role in this game was going to be more melee/combat based and alot less of the "Stand back and heal" variety. Even the head designer said that he thought standing back and healing was dumb.

But how is the runepriest not a class that just stands back and heals? All of his heals go off at 150 feet, and all of his offensive abilities go off at 100feet. He DOES have some abilities that are only 30feet range, but that's hardly "In the thick of things".

Ultimately I see no reason for anyone to ever want to play a Warrior Priest or any kind of direct combat healer that requires thought when you can just play the "Stand back and heal" class which is the rune priest. I know that the game isn't even out yet, but I can use deductive reasoning to see that this is what this class is going to do.

Someone please say it ain't so!

[Kuari]

They can do damage... but that IS a good question... what reason do they have that prevents them from someone trying to force them to stand back and heal only?..

[Feigro]

Firstly, melee was never specified. Just combat in general. So the fact that the Runepriest may primarily be a ranged attacker is irrelevant really.

Second however, you seem to be correct. This is something I've noticed as well, the Runepriest seems to be the sole exception to the "must do damage to heal" concept to keep them in the thick.

[JonoLith]

Firstly, melee was never specified. Just combat in general. So the fact that the Runepriest may primarily be a ranged attacker is irrelevant really.

Second however, you seem to be correct. This is something I've noticed as well, the Runepriest seems to be the sole exception to the "must do damage to heal" concept to keep them in the thick.


I did understand that not all of them were supposed to be melee centric. The shaman isn't a melee class, he's ranged. But all of his offensive spells tie into his defensive spells with Waagh! which creates a neat dynamic. The runepriest has no dynamic. He just stands back and heals, which is the exact opposite of what we were told healers were doing in this game!

Say it ain't so!

[Jesper]

anyway, we only know a small quantity of abilities for each class...but atm this bothers me too:D

[pinktrantula]

i remember reading someones post who described how the goblin shaman worked. i know its not a rune priest but its close. he stated that his heals were weak on there own. to really use the full potential of his healing abilities he had to do damage and build his moral. if i had to guess i would say that this is how they are referring to the healers as not just stand back and spam heal class. if u really want to heal your friends/yourself u had better dish out some pain first.

[Randell44]

His abilities are also not direct heals i do not think and require more attention. He places runes which must be refreshed and many are either triggered by him OR whoever is wearing the runes AFTER he places them. IE I wouldn't expect him to have direct lifesaving heals. He must place them at least shortly ahead of time.

I assume cooldowns will play some part in this as they STRESS preparation. I also assume that a Runepriest not attacking and just healing will not be as effective on the whole as a runepriest that attacks AND heals. Thus if a runepreist is standing back and ONLY healing I will prolly holler at them to attack a lil too.

Strait from http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Dwarfs/Careers/Runepriest.php:

Runepriest Specialty
In a world where magic is commonplace, it may seem that the Runepriest’s powers are unremarkable. However, his runes offer something unique and powerful – the ability to bind a rune to an object or creature to await a trigger which will unleash its power. A rune-marked blade burns as it strikes, a rune-marked breastplate hardens against a killing blow, and rune-marked flesh awaits only a word of command before releasing its healing energies. By marking his allies prior to battle, the Runepriest is free to join the fight where and when he is needed, be it shaping further runes of power, or entering the thick of the fight with rune staff in hand. It is important to note that runes retain their power even after the Runepriest expires.

Playing as a Runepriest
Preparation is critical to your success as a Runepriest, as is developing a keen sense of timing and coordination. You can use your runes to protect your friends and enhance their powers (even placing some of the runes’ effects under the subject’s control), but their strength wanes quickly upon use and you must be ready to reinforce them as needed. Advance preparation makes it easier for you to split your attention between supporting your friends, and assaulting your foes. This division of duty is absolutely necessary in battle. Focusing purely on offense will leave your group mates without support after a short time. Conversely, playing purely a support role will rob your group of a rune-enhanced warrior of significant power.

[Grombir]

I'm going to give it a shot to answer this, keep in mind this is just a bit of guesswork on my part.

Runepriest have normal runes that do some direct healing and damage. The other kind of runes they have are oath runes, these are buffs that can be put on an ally and are a lot more powerfull then the normal runes. Those can also be broken by the wearer for various effects. The thing is that these oathrunes will probably take a long time to cast and thus it wouldn't be handy to cast them during combat.

I'm thinking a runepriest is supposed to cast these oathrunes between battles. Therefore making some sort of period where it would be pointless that the runepriest heals. He will have some heals but these won't be as powerfull as the oathrunes or the shamens heals on WAAAGH!!!

I think the runepriest doesn't have gimmick like WAAAGH!!! or rightious fury because he doesn't need one. The point of the runes is that you do it before the fight and throw in a few normal ones where they are needed. Again this is just a bit of guesswork, we'll have to see how it turns out.

[Randell44]

Another impression I got. Runepriest seems the be the biggest buffer I have seen so far. So his heals might be a bit lacking but he has nice buffs. This could very well lead to him fighting more.

[Axxar]

My impression of the runepriest is that he's a very defensive-oriented support class. At the same time, given what the devs have let on, I feel there has to be some kind of gimmick that makes him want to deal some damage rather than just standing back to heal and refresh buffs.

[Foofmonger]

The answer to this question can be answered by the name of the class.

RUNEpriest. Meaning that he has runes, thats what makes him different lol.

I expect the runes to play a big role in a runepriests experience. Some of them probably have short durations, and need to be micromanaged. Not to mention some kind of offensive casting ability.

It seems like you could stay back and try and healbot as a RP, but it also seems like that would make you the worst runepriest out there.

[RockAgainstAss]

maybe they'll have good melee skills, wow the casters had mainly casting/ranged skills and staffs seemed pretty useless because the weapon level only goes up when its used, for warlocks and mages etc the staff is rarely used so their pretty much dependant on spells but with the runepriest it would be amazing if you could cast spells and then run in and use a set of melee skills involving staff skills and cool looking moves set around the weapon type aside from just hit hit hit cast hit hit id like to see a set of melee skills in which you can spin and twirl your staff etc

[Axxar]

They do have medium armor, which should make them capable of surviving in melee for a time.

[Derfel]

The shaman has to build waagh to be effective at healing, the warrior priest has to build righteous fury to be effective at healing, both have to fight in order to heal.
Why suddenly think Runepriests will be that different?

It might be a different game mechanic, and it may not hve been detailed yet, but I certianly wouldn't be suddenly assuming tat the rune priest will be some stand back healbot.

[Jesper]

LOL guys i think this put the word "end" on this thread. Look at theese videos
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11512

Take a look at the runepriest videos obviously (mainly the last 2, runepriest in scenario).

I mean...lol, it nukes things to pieces! That's the reason i suppose it will not be just an healbot (the mechanic "root+nuke+nuke+nuke=dead toon" alredy calls to a nerf lol)

And i mean, it don't have to build up power...it can simply heal and nuke:D BTW for how AP works (ap regain is really fast...) it seems that he can be effective both as an healer and a range dpser

[Aqe]

We just doesn't have a full ability tree for Runepriest yet. Check the Shaman abilities
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11710

They all build or spend Waaagh.

[Kuari]

Thing is though, Runepriests have nothing that forces them to DPS...

They have runes, sure, some of them act as buffs, sure...

But they also have some pure heals, rather then buffs

[Nothv13]

What if the game mechanic for the rune priest was that doing damage speeds up his cooldowns. So maybe his heals have a long recharge, but through doing damage it makes these cooldowns shorter and thus he is more effective at healing.

[Kuari]

What if the game mechanic for the rune priest was that doing damage speeds up his cooldowns. So maybe his heals have a long recharge, but through doing damage it makes these cooldowns shorter and thus he is more effective at healing.

Meh, it'd be better if it sped up cast time instead

[JonoLith]

LOL guys i think this put the word "end" on this thread. Look at theese videos
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11512

Take a look at the runepriest videos obviously (mainly the last 2, runepriest in scenario).

I mean...lol, it nukes things to pieces! That's the reason i suppose it will not be just an healbot (the mechanic "root+nuke+nuke+nuke=dead toon" alredy calls to a nerf lol)

And i mean, it don't have to build up power...it can simply heal and nuke:D BTW for how AP works (ap regain is really fast...) it seems that he can be effective both as an healer and a range dpser


Phew... thanks for these vids Jesper. Immediately put my mind at ease. While the dude in the videos kinda sucked at it (New game, never played, whatevs) he really only healed sparsely and spent more time dishing out damage and buffs then any actual heals.

I'm really thinking that heals in this game, even the big badass ones, aren't all that spectactular. He healed himself with big gigantic slow cast timer heals and they only landed for about 30% of his health, which made him recast it.

I STILL think it's kinda bunk that the runepriest has the most cut and dry way of doing things, but at the same time he's CLEARLY not going to be a class that just sits back and heals. He'll be in there tearin' stuff up.

Good vids. thanks again.

[Dayroz]

Personally, I think the Runepriest was looking awesome in those videos (Huge thanks to the guy who posted those). Also, in the Engineering video Part 1, you can see her get some heals. Overall, from the impression I get, the Runepriest's long buffs are relatively powerful (Probably acting similarly to a Protection Monk in Guild Wars) and their heals are nice, but nothing too powerful. Combining that with the fact that they have what appears to be good damage, I think they'll play similar to an Elemental Shaman - Yes, they can heal, and will in times of need, but overall you want them blasting stuff and dropping buffs.

[Kuari]

He CAN do damage, but I'm worried about people trying to force them only to heal because it seems to be the only support class so far that can be forced like that.

[Derfel]

They've said repeatedly that 'healing classes' will be wasted if they just stand back and heal. There are no heal bots, THERE ARE NO HEAL BOTS.

People are negative about the runepriest play style when there is ONLY speculation on the play style at present.

Wait till we find out how heals are built up before commenting on how much else they will do.

It was only through someone talking about trying the Shaman at a games day somewhere that we learnt how much they HAD to build up waagh for their heals to be effective.
Please please please, can we wait till we have some similar evidence for Runepriests before slating them as the boring class?

[Jesper]

i think the problem "you can heal OR you can nuke" is based on 2 points

1)While you nuke, you can't heal
2)If you nuke you have less mana to heal

Problem 1
Well, this is not a real problem. I mean, if you are nuking while someone on your party is dying it's your fault. You can heal, no one else can, so you MUST heal in this case.
BUT when your teammates aren't in danger you can dps...and this lead to point 2.

Problem 2
This game have no mana. Simply. You can cast up to 5-6 spells, then in few seconds your action poin bar will be replenished. You simply have to manage it and you can both nuke and heal.

So i don't really see a problem in balance, nor a "EHY HEAL AND STOP" attitude, cause you won't run out of power.

[Kuari]

They've said repeatedly that 'healing classes' will be wasted if they just stand back and heal. There are no heal bots, THERE ARE NO HEAL BOTS.

People are negative about the runepriest play style when there is ONLY speculation on the play style at present.

Wait till we find out how heals are built up before commenting on how much else they will do.

It was only through someone talking about trying the Shaman at a games day somewhere that we learnt how much they HAD to build up waagh for their heals to be effective.
Please please please, can we wait till we have some similar evidence for Runepriests before slating them as the boring class?

Well that's the thing... Zealots... we know how they build up healing. Warrior Priests, we know how they build up healing. Shaman we know how they build up healing. Rune Priests... only thing they have to build up healing is that one healing rune.

[SharderBlade]

His abilities are also not direct heals i do not think and require more attention. He places runes which must be refreshed and many are either triggered by him OR whoever is wearing the runes AFTER he places them. IE I wouldn't expect him to have direct lifesaving heals. He must place them at least shortly ahead of time.

I assume cooldowns will play some part in this as they STRESS preparation. I also assume that a Runepriest not attacking and just healing will not be as effective on the whole as a runepriest that attacks AND heals. Thus if a runepreist is standing back and ONLY healing I will prolly holler at them to attack a lil too.

Strait from http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Dwarfs/Careers/Runepriest.php:

When I played one it seemed like a typical MMO healer, sure he had a few HoTs, but it seemed like just about any priest but with "rune of" added in front of the spells.

[Kuari]

When I played one it seemed like a typical MMO healer, sure he had a few HoTs, but it seemed like just about any priest but with "rune of" added in front of the spells.

And that's a problem right there

[Petit-Trot]

Maybe the RP's heals will just be a lot less effective than its buffs and nukes, making healing just a lot less attractive. It could be that groups in which a RP is effectivly nuking and using some well placed heals will be much more succesful than groups in which the RP stands back and heals.

[Kuari]

Maybe the RP's heals will just be a lot less effective than its buffs and nukes, making healing just a lot less attractive. It could be that groups in which a RP is effectivly nuking and using some well placed heals will be much more succesful than groups in which the RP stands back and heals.

Well the way people are going to see it is if someone is hurt at all, the Rune Priest should be healing. No matter what, that's what most people are going to think, if something isn't done that absolutely forces them to do damage.

Doesn't matter if they'll be more effective doing both, only Rune Priests and people who play/actually listen to them will realize it, while everyone else? Nope..

[Petit-Trot]

Well, if your RP ally can kill the opponents before they kill you, that's the obvious way to do it. Call me optimistic, but if that's the way they are going, I believe players will realize it. If you can do double the damage than you can heal, people are going to ask you to fight (I will anyway).

[azhrarn]

Well, if your RP ally can kill the opponents before they kill you, that's the obvious way to do it. Call me optimistic, but if that's the way they are going, I believe players will realize it. If you can do double the damage than you can heal, people are going to ask you to fight (I will anyway).

You however are a reasonable person. Any whining "leet" weirdo and his dog will probably tell you to shut up and heal, when a class has no direct need for its damage component people tend to box it as a healer. I personally intend to roll a RP no matter what, but it'll quickly be delegated to being alt if i start running into that kind of attitude. I'm personally hoping, and even praying that the people will realise they're better off with a RP doing both damage and healing. (and also hoping we don't have to many DPS-monkey RPs who don't heal)

[Randell44]

Does anyone have a list of the RP's abilities? I have this nagging feeling that there will be a non-direct heal that is better than the casted heals seen in the video. IE a rune that takes a lil to set bu functions as a superior heal when released either by the player or the RP.


From What I see his healing power is still that of a hyrbid, IE not good enough to sit back and heal the entire time considering how fast most people tend to die. DMG/buffing seem to be more important from the smlal amount I've seen. But of course we don't know the exact balance yet.

When I played one it seemed like a typical MMO healer, sure he had a few HoTs, but it seemed like just about any priest but with "rune of" added in front of the spells.

At the very least we know they have a twist or a gimmick. Some of thier buffing runes can be released early for certain effects. Some are even in the control of the person buffed instead of the runepriest.

The video showed us at the worst that healing and dmg were equally powerful on the runepriest. But it didn't show much specifics about buffing...which I believe much streangth of the runepriest lays at.

[Kuari]

There's a list right on this Runepriest Discussion board... topic name will make it obvious.

And it's the fact that healing can be outdamaged that makes me think they will be forced to heal only. I mean, that healing at least buys your allies some time

[Foofmonger]

What if there is cooldowns to the RPs heals? Something like after this spell is cast you can't heal for X seconds. That could be a way to keep them from being healbots.

And obviously, if you aren't managing your runes (and just healing), then your not going to be very effective. Where the DPS fits in, in a group setting is still to be seen.

[Kuari]

What if there is cooldowns to the RPs heals? Something like after this spell is cast you can't heal for X seconds. That could be a way to keep them from being healbots.

And obviously, if you aren't managing your runes (and just healing), then your not going to be very effective. Where the DPS fits in, in a group setting is still to be seen.

There are no real cooldowns on them yet....

And true, there is the buffing, but still seems like a "and I heal, and I heal, and I heal" class

[Randell44]

Something just as good as healing is damage mitigation. Someone once told me in a game dead enemies are 100% mitigation from them lol :). I slapped them in game because the scenario they applied it to was ludicrous :shock: .



However this one I think it applies to, dead foes can't hurt you. If the runepriest has good dmg and good healing then there will be many times where dmg would be better than healing because it would prevent the need for heals or more heals.


The thing is, people standing back and healing only will have to heal back more dmg, making thier act of only healing seem more justified. It might be better to attack and heal but they will sit back and say if I didn't heal you here...you woulda died. When the fact might be if you did both the life/death situation woulda never happened.








EDIT: I imagine the skill system will also have a large effect on this.

[Kuari]

Something just as good as healing is damage mitigation. Someone once told me in a game dead enemies are 100% mitigation from them lol :). I slapped them in game because the scenario they applied it to was ludicrous :shock: .



However this one I think it applies to, dead foes can't hurt you. If the runepriest has good dmg and good healing then there will be many times where dmg would be better than healing because it would prevent the need for heals or more heals.


The thing is, people standing back and healing only will have to heal back more dmg, making thier act of only healing seem more justified. It might be better to attack and heal but they will sit back and say if I didn't heal you here...you woulda died. When the fact might be if you did both the life/death situation woulda never happened.








EDIT: I imagine the skill system will also have a large effect on this.

Again, unless something is done, people won't realize this kind of thing really, guarantee it

[Randell44]

Again, unless something is done, people won't realize this kind of thing really, guarantee it

Yup I can too. The less experienced half of the population will generally have no clue. Heck COH/COV STILL has R U HEALER syndrom and it's been out way long enough for people to realize that heals are no more effective than buffs/debuffs in that game.

I'll take things stoically and help reform people 1 group at a time, just like on COH/COV.

[Kuari]

Yup I can too. The less experienced half of the population will generally have no clue. Heck COH/COV STILL has R U HEALER syndrom and it's been out way long enough for people to realize that heals are no more effective than buffs/debuffs in that game.

I'll take things stoically and help reform people 1 group at a time, just like on COH/COV.

Might be better to force people into it somehow... they'll learn faster...

[Randell44]

Might be better to force people into it somehow... they'll learn faster...

Problem is people HATE being FORCED. Make very strong incentives instead :). Oh wait they are trying to do that.

[Kuari]

Problem is people HATE being FORCED. Make very strong incentives instead :). Oh wait they are trying to do that.

Incentives? Forcing? Same thing except incentives are more subtle... Either way, it has to be common knowledge for it to work..

[azhrarn]

I think it was said best by Steve Martin in an interview with Gamespot:

GameSpot: We understand that even though the warrior priest is the "healer" class for the Empire faction, the profession isn't about quietly sitting in the back of the adventuring party, casting healing spells. It's much more warlike and able to fight in the frontlines. Just how strong of a fighter will this character be, and why was this direction chosen?

Steve Marvin: All of our healer careers work this way. We don't just want to avoid the creation of pure support classes; we want to make it positively counterproductive to play any career that way. This is Warhammer Online. Everybody fights. Nobody hangs back. There's no crying in Warhammer.Source (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/warhammeronline/news.html?sid=6167469&tag=topslot;title;2&om_act=convert&om_clk=topslot)

So even the runepriest will be much better off while fighting, rather than just hanging back and supporting.

[mike-zim]

As i have only played wow i can only use it as a reference.

I am hoping the RP will be similar to a shadow priest, in that they can heal but not for that much. But while they are attacking it then has positive effects on the group, i.e. vamperic embrace replenishing hp and mp.

I don't think there will be a problem with pure support. Even if there is now there will be a change in the mechanics before it is released in over 6 months time.

[Yavvy]

Well the way people are going to see it is if someone is hurt at all, the Rune Priest should be healing. No matter what, that's what most people are going to think, if something isn't done that absolutely forces them to do damage.
And those people die because the RP would do better healing by damage than direct heals (what it seems they're doing so far).

If they keep wiping, they might start to think of a better tactic? Its like trying to heal someone to death >.<

Damage is the ONLY thing that can make you win - tanking & healing just makes the fight last longer (which can be both a good and bad thing).

[Kuari]

And those people die because the RP would do better healing by damage than direct heals (what it seems they're doing so far).

If they keep wiping, they might start to think of a better tactic? Its like trying to heal someone to death >.<

Damage is the ONLY thing that can make you win - tanking & healing just makes the fight last longer (which can be both a good and bad thing).


Well thing is, RP have nothing that increases their healing as they do damage... to me that obviously means their heals must be quite a bit better then the unbuffed heals of the other healers. OK, add in their healing rune which increase the healing %...

Now the thing is, there is nothing that keeps the RP from being pure support. In fact, so far, seems to be the opposite, that they will be pure support. The only way this won't be true is if they do more damage then the amount they could heal... which may end up being too much damage possibly unless the ranged DPS can do more.

[Derfel]

They've repeatedly sid there will be no pure healer, no "and I heal, and i heal and I heal". And there's people here convinced, that one of the first 2 hybrid classes they developed is exactly that?

Unbelievable....

I don't know how the RP is going to play, but I want to play one, and I'm absolutely confident that there won't be any problems with RP being exctly what Mythic have said they won't be.

If we get something like the Medic profession in SWG I'll be fairly happy. We will NOT end up with a wow priest.

[Randell44]

Well thing is, RP have nothing that increases their healing as they do damage... to me that obviously means their heals must be quite a bit better then the unbuffed heals of the other healers. OK, add in their healing rune which increase the healing %...

Now the thing is, there is nothing that keeps the RP from being pure support. In fact, so far, seems to be the opposite, that they will be pure support. The only way this won't be true is if they do more damage then the amount they could heal... which may end up being too much damage possibly unless the ranged DPS can do more.

Even if it is as you say a good player would still do both and crappy ones would do one or the other.

More than likely though thier healing is underwhelming compared both to other games and to the other stuff they have available. Able to make a differance aye, but most likely underwhelming.

[Kuari]

Even if it is as you say a good player would still do both and crappy ones would do one or the other.

More than likely though thier healing is underwhelming compared both to other games and to the other stuff they have available. Able to make a differance aye, but most likely underwhelming.

Then they'd might as well be a buffer/DPSer... if it sucks, it won't be done, if it's good it will be used too much. I mean, how do you balance it out if you don't have something like the WP or Shaman? Think about it.

Unlike the other two you ARE picking and choosing. Maybe based on situation rather then when healing is available to you, but still... there is no real meter for balancing them out like the other two classes... hell, looking at that class, doesn't even seem possible... hell, someone who has played a RP said on here that it seemed like a typical priest. I have yet to see anyone who says otherwise mention anything about actually playing one, unless I missed something.

[Randell44]

Unlike the other two you ARE picking and choosing. Maybe based on situation rather then when healing is available to you, but still... there is no real meter for balancing them out like the other two classes... hell, looking at that class, doesn't even seem possible... hell, someone who has played a RP said on here that it seemed like a typical priest. I have yet to see anyone who says otherwise mention anything about actually playing one, unless I missed something.

Yeah I would be CHOOSING to yes both to be more effective vs someone else choosing to use on or the other as a crutch and be gimp. Ya your right there doesn't seem to be a direct mechanism that very strongly encourages you to do both.

As far as someone saying it's the same as a priest? I can't trust that honestly nothing against the person. People have made all sorts of silly and incorrect comparisons in MMORPG's, especially when the person's perspective is based entirely on WOW.

Now say it IS priestish. You still have alot of eh in there. IE what kind of priest spec does it resmeble and what ways does it differ.

[Odro]

i think it would be better to have a mechanic like what shamans and WP get because then we would have more action points to use in dps while as having to use action points to both heal and dps would have it so we have less points to spend in both.

an example is: you have your action bar and you have your "healing mechanic" bar. you spend up most of your action bar dpsing and then heal depleting the "healing mechanic" bar and while you heal your action bar replenishes.

another thing is that some players might not want to dps and heal instead you might get some runepriests that just dps and dont heal and everyone dies and then you might get a RP that just heals and doesnt do any damage.

[Kuari]

Yeah I would be CHOOSING to yes both to be more effective vs someone else choosing to use on or the other as a crutch and be gimp. Ya your right there doesn't seem to be a direct mechanism that very strongly encourages you to do both.

As far as someone saying it's the same as a priest? I can't trust that honestly nothing against the person. People have made all sorts of silly and incorrect comparisons in MMORPG's, especially when the person's perspective is based entirely on WOW.

Now say it IS priestish. You still have alot of eh in there. IE what kind of priest spec does it resmeble and what ways does it differ.

If you want a WoW comparison, it seems like it's not quite a shadow priest, but not quite a holy/disc priest either... more like a combination of the three I guess. atm I'm having doubts about how well that will work though

[DEVLiN]

With the Runepriest perhaps you could stand back and heal - but you'd be a whole lot less effective than someone who also actively refresh runes, root and focus fire with the rest when needed.

There will always be people telling you what to do. Some are right, the majority however aren't. It's only you who can ignore the fools and pick another group where you'd be appreciated.

Heck, I dps'ed a lot with my holy/disc priest in WoW, and did really really well. Did this mean I ignored my group members that needed heals? Not at all - with the exception being the ones who told me to do nothing but heal. The rest enjoyed the route to victory.

[Kuari]

With the Runepriest perhaps you could stand back and heal - but you'd be a whole lot less effective than someone who also actively refresh runes, root and focus fire with the rest when needed.

There will always be people telling you what to do. Some are right, the majority however aren't. It's only you who can ignore the fools and pick another group where you'd be appreciated.

Heck, I dps'ed a lot with my holy/disc priest in WoW, and did really really well. Did this mean I ignored my group members that needed heals? Not at all - with the exception being the ones who told me to do nothing but heal. The rest enjoyed the route to victory.

You obviously never did raids or heroics... but that's besides the point, but yeah, they left Runepriests too open to be a scapegoat, and whether they like it or not, it will be a healing and buffing pansy by vast majority unless they adjust it somehow, and quite simply, I don't think people should have to deal with that, even if they somehow did make it less effective. They have to make it's less effectiveness obvious....

[DEVLiN]

You obviously never did raids or heroics...
Congratulations on being about as mistaken you could be - jumping to faulty conclusions as a sub-par way of trying to insult me and diminish the value of my post. You rock.

I've done plenty of raids and heroics - but my post was about RvR (or PvP really - in the WoW sense) - not whack-a-mole PvE.

If you want to stand back and only cast those mana inefficient heals and overheal over and over instead of doing what's right at the moment - be my guest. More renown for us.

[Randell44]

With any luck the information we have along with the mechanics of the other healing classes will combine to create a community that sees the healer class alil differently. It's a toss-up frankly because some people are die hard R U HEALER morons. But I think there is a good chance the general community in this game will be like "Cmon man, you can do more than just heal. Attack a lil too."

[Kuari]

Congratulations on being about as mistaken you could be - jumping to faulty conclusions as a sub-par way of trying to insult me and diminish the value of my post. You rock.

I've done plenty of raids and heroics - but my post was about RvR (or PvP really - in the WoW sense) - not whack-a-mole PvE.

If you want to stand back and only cast those mana inefficient heals and overheal over and over instead of doing what's right at the moment - be my guest. More renown for us.
See, now you're overreacting. I know for a fact that if a priest doesn't keep healing in raids and heroics, someone is going to die. That's the way it works. My post still has a point though. My issues with this potential problem isn't just about PvP, it's also about PvE..

And Randell, I'm thinking you're overestimating people...

[Furio]

A RunePriest is not a priest, put simply he as an individual has no healing power.

it is the power from the runes in which he inscribes that has benefit of healing / buffing you.

[Grimfell Gromgear]

Well, let's hope by the time folks reach level 40 they'll understand the way the class works. So let's just hope that Mythic has it set up right for them to be better at tossing out nukes (or whatever they'll end up being best at aside from healing) than tossing out heals.

[mockingbyrd7]

Edit: Never mind.

[Warui]

I assume just have faith that the classes will turn out as Mythic has promised. Untill the game hits the market everything is subject to change and tweeking. And untill Mythic does something that breaks our trust in their promises speculating against what they say doesn't make much since to me. So untill the game actualy launches it is my opinion that Rune Priests will do exactly what Mythic has said. Be a viable hybrid class that is capable of responding to the changing needs of the battle and take the best action to ensure victory for him and his comrades.

Though Paul Barnett and others have repeatedly said WAR is not WoW; the rune priest reminds me of my enhancement shaman before BC. When I was doing a BG, or any pvp, I set my totems in accordance with the situation, started attacking, spammed some heals on my comrades if needed to keep them alive, and if everyone was okay on health just let off huge Windfury crits to help kill Alliance faster. I mean, all the WAR healers just seem like another hybrid class to me. They don't do any one particular thing great (outside of totaly specing it and therefor limiting overall effectiveness), but can do every thing good.

If you read the class info for goblin shamans Mythic tells you you can spec total heal build or total dps build. Doing so however will greatly limit your over all effectiveness in battle. Basicaly it's them being polite and say if you spec just one thing all the way you will suck preposterous amounts of .

I do assume they will have great healing abilities, but just becauset hey do I highly doubt they will be confinde to that roll. I mean who wants someone sitting in the back just overhealing or saving all their AP (and therefor doing absolutely nothing for long periods) for "just incase" I need to heal. If you preped runes properly, you have hots on the main melee members of the party, then sitting in the back and doing nothings helps no one. You will be better served in the front helping kill things faster, there for less time to take dmg from enemey as he isn't around long enough to dish alot out, making less healing needed, and quicker over all victories.

Anyways, my two cents.

[Randell44]

And Randell, I'm thinking you're overestimating people...

Don't think so. In COH/COV for example there is still that die-hard OMG WE NEED HEALS community even though the "healers" of the game keep the team safe through debuffs and buffs more often than not.


However, though this fraction of the populace never dies, MOST people have at least a basic understanding of what your power set does and what you should be doing. I imagine it will be the same in WAR. This small vocal fraction of the population will want you as their pocket healer but the rest of people will want you using all of your abilities.

[Moonster]

Whats gonna REALLY suck for RP's is when people that have been playing healbots for years(and like healbotting) will roll a RP because they are the closest thing to a healbot, and that will cause RP's to get a reputation as healbots. A few healbots can ruin it for the entire RP population, unfortunately.

[Silver]

that will just be the difference between a good RP and a bad RP, it will probably not be too affected by the "beginners class" reputation seeing as it isnt interesting for beginners, as you said, the most likely people to roll RPs are experienced

experienced players should have less trouble breaking a few bad habits (like heal botting) than a beginner would have learning how to play from scratch

one of the harder parts of a healer class is being aware of the group as a whole and even healbots will have some of that

personnaly I am quite happy there is a class that doesnt force me to go nuking and allows me to play mainly a support role, this doesnt mean healbotting, but buffing/healing/crowd controlling and generally enhancing or saving allies.

I was a healer on DaoC (though my sig shows him only in the middle he was my first and possibly favorite char) which was crowd control and heal only. The class was however one of the hardest to play in the game and many healers took great pride in doing what they did well even if they killed an ennemy only every 50 fights. I honestly dont see a problem with there being one class like that, as long as the other options are open and viable (the elf and empire healers will be just as good at healing).

I can see why they would force classes to take risks to attain maximum power, which they seem to be doing. I dont see why they would make all healer classes have to attack, you just have to make their support spells more condition specific and shorter ranged to force them to advance and think.

[Jest]

Runepriest style of healing reminds me kind of like the Guildwars "boonprot" Monk build.
They don't healbot but rather have to plan out their heals by placing enchants on their party members to react to the damage they are taking. Runepriests must be aware of this and have a sense of rhythm when it comes to placing runes.

I would say that Runepriests would be doing less damage than Shamans. Shamans must build WAAAGH, the Runepriests dont use this mechanic. Their non-heal/non-rune skills are meant to either buy them some time or relieve some pressure on their groupmates. In my opinion.

[LookinGreen]

From what I heard rune priest are mostly heal over time. That alone should not make them heal bots. You can spam all the HoT you want but as long as they don't stack if its from the same caster then it won't do a thing.

[Perp]

I hope you guys arguing in this thread realize the penalties have been removed from WP and Shaman. Now waaagh and fury simply reduce the cast time of their heals; they are full strength without the mechanic meaning they don't have to "do damage" to heal anymore.

Face it; good healers will always be needed in pve/pvp/rvr and the people who like the playstyle will reap the benefits of always having a group and racking up tons of renown for their heals (btw there's your incentive to heal).

I think healers will rack up renown faster than any other archetype; it's a good thing.

[Randell44]

I hope you guys arguing in this thread realize the penalties have been removed from WP and Shaman. Now waaagh and fury simply reduce the cast time of their heals; they are full strength without the mechanic meaning they don't have to "do damage" to heal anymore.

Face it; good healers will always be needed in pve/pvp/rvr and the people who like the playstyle will reap the benefits of always having a group and racking up tons of renown for their heals (btw there's your incentive to heal).

I think healers will rack up renown faster than any other archetype; it's a good thing.

I hope you realize they are still playing around with things so it could flip back or change in other ways as well. Even so though there is a marked difference between a 5 second heal and a 2 second heal.

[Perp]

I hope you realize they are still playing around with things so it could flip back or change in other ways as well. Even so though there is a marked difference between a 5 second heal and a 2 second heal.

It's not possible from a design standpoint to do ANY pve (that isn't a total joke) without healers that can heal from the word go. Sure people want some mechanic that makes healers do damage before they can heal effectively, but if that's the only attitude you have towards healers then just don't roll one. I swear it's like people think that they should be able to DPS then heal themselves; if you want a heal go roll a healer archtype yourself.

I'm not saying either is right or wrong, but if you ever pvp in a group with competent healers you realize how easily it is to roll over disorganized groups lacking proper heals.

[Randell44]

It's not possible from a design standpoint to do ANY pve (that isn't a total joke) without healers that can heal from the word go. Sure people want some mechanic that makes healers do damage before they can heal effectively, but if that's the only attitude you have towards healers then just don't roll one. I swear it's like people think that they should be able to DPS then heal themselves; if you want a heal go roll a healer archtype yourself.

I'm not saying either is right or wrong, but if you ever pvp in a group with competent healers you realize how easily it is to roll over disorganized groups lacking proper heals.

Your completely totally and 100% wrong. Go play COH/COV. Game design is what enforces the need or lack thereof for heals. It's completely possible to make competitive PVE and PVP that do not require heals.

I realize this is a scary concept seeing as 90% of games hug the holy trinity religiously as it's a tried and true (and relatively easy) way to make things work. But it can definitely be done effectively without. We are merely so used to it that it's practically ingrained in our skulls.

[harkan]

It's not possible from a design standpoint to do ANY pve (that isn't a total joke) without healers that can heal from the word go. Sure people want some mechanic that makes healers do damage before they can heal effectively, but if that's the only attitude you have towards healers then just don't roll one. I swear it's like people think that they should be able to DPS then heal themselves; if you want a heal go roll a healer archtype yourself.

I'm not saying either is right or wrong, but if you ever pvp in a group with competent healers you realize how easily it is to roll over disorganized groups lacking proper heals.

But the pve can be a joke, this is a rvr based game the pve simply have to be adapted to it so to say"pve will be a joke if we do x" is simply a matter of changing the pve. If i wanted a game ruled by how easy i can take down computer generated scripts i would have sticked with my epiced out char in wow.

The problem with removing their mechanics (basicly they dumbed this game down something fiercly in the last months with removal of tactics, character progression *lvl wise* and def how the healers owrk.

In the end it is possible for any healer now do go "heal heal heal heal" and perhapps "cc or 1 nuke" and then "heal heal heal heal"
This is just the concept they where moving from and if its usuable it will be the most efficant (seeing how big the heals are from all healers spam healing far outweights any other tactic in the game) and if its the most effective it is what ppl will expect other ppl to do or do themself.

Then we are basicly back to wow. Healers heal only (more or less) and thasts the issue, they even named it an issue themself its fricking boring. They need the systems to limit their heals its that simple otherwise it will agian turn to wow: where healers are rare but a group with a healer is needed always in pve and pvp.

What i have seen in the last month(s) has made me rethink war alot and take a step back from my previous enthusiasm, dumbing down the game feels so wow all over agian to, its instead of forcing ppl to get more skill they make it easier, sad sad day.

[Perp]

While it is going to be 80% RvR at end game (according to devs), they'll still want to have compelling PvE.

Disagree if you like, but well done scripted pve can be put in even if it's not the "focus" of the game. PvE is about position/mitigation/dps/healing, if you remove the need for healing/mitigation in pve then why even bother with doing instanced pve since it would be the same as grinding on world mobs.

[Yavvy]

While it is going to be 80% RvR at end game (according to devs), they'll still want to have compelling PvE.

Disagree if you like, but well done scripted pve can be put in even if it's not the "focus" of the game. PvE is about position/mitigation/dps/healing, if you remove the need for healing/mitigation in pve then why even bother with doing instanced pve since it would be the same as grinding on world mobs.
No it wouldn't.

PvE would work fine with Waaagh - if its a 2 sec cast with and a 5 sec cast without, you could spend 3 seconds nuking to get Waagh and get exactly the same result, exept you do more damage. Having the 5 sec cast do less healing is only another way to make nuking seem even more attractive - its already better to nuke / heal than pure heal.

[Perp]

No it wouldn't.

PvE would work fine with Waaagh - if its a 2 sec cast with and a 5 sec cast without, you could spend 3 seconds nuking to get Waagh and get exactly the same result, exept you do more damage. Having the 5 sec cast do less healing is only another way to make nuking seem even more attractive - its already better to nuke / heal than pure heal.

Yeah, but that 5 second cast means with interupts and setbacks you'll never get a heal off on yourself in PvP without waaaagh. Fun. /end sarcasm

[Randell44]

Yeah, but that 5 second cast means with interupts and setbacks you'll never get a heal off on yourself in PvP without waaaagh. Fun. /end sarcasm

DING!! Maybe thats what they are going after!! Trying to force you to do more than heal bot. There is absolutely no reason in PVE or RVR that you shouldn't nuke a lil anyhows. You should have the time to as well if your wise.



While it is going to be 80% RvR at end game (according to devs), they'll still want to have compelling PvE.

Disagree if you like, but well done scripted pve can be put in even if it's not the "focus" of the game. PvE is about position/mitigation/dps/healing, if you remove the need for healing/mitigation in pve then why even bother with doing instanced pve since it would be the same as grinding on world mobs.


Healing and dmg mitigation are not the same thing. This game is gonna have both. COH/COV had a definite lack of focus on healing instead focusing on that dmg mitigation/healing and thats why you could have an effective group without a single tossed heal. Because you could mitigate dmg well enough thru killing fast, buffs, debuffs, or your own defenses. Yet healers and debuffers/dmg mitigators were about equally useful in teams.

The need for healing will still be there, but if the game is balanced right it will be helpful instead of absolutely needed. EVERY class has some for of dmg mitigation however so no class is left without on that one.

[Perp]

Have you seen the current state of the runepriest's dps?

The key will be staying alive while your team smashes those after your . Also, consider how frustrating it is to "NEED" to heal yourself (it's your primary function) and you can't because you didn't nuke enough first.

Trust me, healers will be balanced via lower dps not mechanics that will make you want to throw your PC against a wall.

[Jest]

Yea RPs pretty much healbot with the occassional AOE now. Other than that they are kiting Choppas around hoping their dps'ers get off the 1 Black Orc soaking the damage.

Luckily we get medium armor. ;)

[Randell44]

Have you seen the current state of the runepriest's dps?

The key will be staying alive while your team smashes those after your . Also, consider how frustrating it is to "NEED" to heal yourself (it's your primary function) and you can't because you didn't nuke enough first.

Trust me, healers will be balanced via lower dps not mechanics that will make you want to throw your PC against a wall.

No I haven't but and right now the current state is protected by the NDA. I never said you will be one of the teams strongest dmg dealers or anything but any dmg you do in addition to healing and BUFFING will help your team. Runepriest DPS would have to be negligable for them not to be able to make a differance with it.

As far as how it will be balanced? None of us knows!! But I promise you balancing the runepriest is gonna be a good bit different from balancing the warrior priest/gob shaman/zealot. A blanket statement would seem to be a bad idea IMO.



Also, and this is big. IT'S STILL IN BETA!!!! My gosh you can't figure out how a class is gonna perform from beta. Heck many times you can't even tell from 2 weeks after release. Everything we say right now is basically speculation of the wildest kind.

[Perp]

True, but the info we have gives you an idea of how they want the class to play and what kinds of abilities they like for said class.

[Randell44]

True, but the info we have gives you an idea of how they want the class to play and what kinds of abilities they like for said class.

Consdering the balance changes I have seen gone thru every MMORPG I have played I would actually quite disagree. DAOC is a major example of this, EQ II went thru major redesigns, COH/COV had it's share of major changes as well.

As Sanya would say "I trust nothing I can't clutch in my own withered talons."

[Perp]

it's not as if they'll take away the RP ability to heal and obviously they will give him some kind of cc and damage spells.... but I doubt you'll see any mechanics in place that force you to play a certain way; it's just not fun

[Lyrdon]

Healing and dmg mitigation are not the same thing. This game is gonna have both. COH/COV had a definite lack of focus on healing instead focusing on that dmg mitigation/healing and thats why you could have an effective group without a single tossed heal. Because you could mitigate dmg well enough thru killing fast, buffs, debuffs, or your own defenses. Yet healers and debuffers/dmg mitigators were about equally useful in teams.

I'm already in love with the Runepriest, but I think I'd be even more so if their 'healing' was like force field defenders in CoH; being all about damage prevention. For my examples in WAR... before a battle, you can slap a powerful damage prevention oath rune on a friend that fades in power as it receives blows, dwindling from 80% mitigation to 50, 40, 30, 20% as they take more and more hits, with the oath power being the breaking of the protective ward, causing an explosive knockback around the user - giving the Runepriest's friend breathing room if they're being swarmed. Lesser runes can sharply increase a target's armor or magical resistances. A master rune can be dropped to provide damage reduction to an area for a duration, providing solid mitigation to your entire group, which when coupled with a properly taunting tank, creates a bastion of defense where your party can slug it out, Dwarf style. As an additional plus, as long as all of your runes are holding, you're completely free to run around, dps, and otherwise cause mayhem. There may not much, if any, healing, but it's going to take just as many Orcs to down an Ironbreaker with a damage prevention Runepriest behind his back as it would a 'Breaker with a healing 'Priest.

I completely agree with Randell in that you don't need every healer class to heal. Debuffs/mitigation can be just as effective, and are a more interesting way to implement support mechanics when most of the other healing classes already have a gimmick to their healing abilities (Waaagh!, Righteous Fury). In this way, Warrior-Priests and Runepriests aren't competing for jobs in a group, they can work together and complement each other instead.

[Perp]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that kind of healing would just be stacked with "normal" healing for RvR. You'd be forced to bring one of each type of healer to RvR effectively; not going to happen. All healing classes will have roughly the same mechanics.

[Lyrdon]

*pop*

Very true, sir. Nonetheless, I'm fond of alternate healing mechanics, especially ones that free up the caster to run around otherwise. I'd like to see something unique heal-wise for each of three classes on each side - which is what they're shootin' for, I just got a l'il giddy in my remembrance of CoH and went crazy.

[Randell44]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that kind of healing would just be stacked with "normal" healing for RvR. You'd be forced to bring one of each type of healer to RvR effectively; not going to happen. All healing classes will have roughly the same mechanics.

True, if they did it to the level of COH/COV. However they could very easily make a healer class more buff centric without completely negating their need to heal.

Assuming that a squishy caster using waaaagh to enhance heals, a frontline warrior building righteous fury to even cast heals, and a caster using marks/harbirngers to buff/debuff and heal also fit into the "roughly the same mechanics"

Actually, it would seem that currently you'd be "forced" to bring both a zealot and a gob shaman. "Seem" being the key word. I have confidence that the devs are balancing things so as not to make "healers", or any other class for that matter, essential.



Bottom Line: They are not looking for "roughly the same mechanics" IMO. They are looking for exactly what they have stated "filling the same role". They have basic archtypes, a job for each class to do. They try to use different mechanics to achieve the same effect and yet stay as balanaced as humanly possible.

The tanks have largely different mechanics, while doing the same job. The melee DPS have largely different mechanics, while doing the same job. The Ranged DPS undoubtedly have largely different mechanics, while doing the same job. The healer hybrids already have largely different mechanics, intended to do the same job.

Why on earth would they break their entire gameplan for the runepriest?

[Perp]

Exactly my point.

All the archtypes have the same *job* or *mechanics* if you will. The healers all provide healing to their groups with the same spells; different names. Sure some won't have a HOT or good group heal. Maybe their buffs are different and how they do dps is different, but in the end they are all healers who will simply heal within a different gameplay experience.

[Randell44]

Exactly my point.

All the archetypes have the same *job* or *mechanics* if you will. The healers all provide healing to their groups with the same spells; different names. Sure some won't have a HOT or good group heal. Maybe their buffs are different and how they do dps is different, but in the end they are all healers who will simply heal within a different game play experience.

Your confused. Job is what they aim to get done. Mechanics are how they intend to do them. The job of the "healer" classes is to keep their team safe. The intent of the developers should be obvious at this point. They want the classes to accomplish the same goals, but not in the same ways.

Thus the mechanics of each must be different to fulfill this expectation.


This is already quite obvious in the way they have set up both other classes and "healers" themselves. Runepriest seems more buff oriented, the zealot more debuff oriented, and the shaman more emphasized on both healing and dmg.

Check out other classes for more examples of this type of thinking. Ranged DPS being the most obvious example atm. Bright wizard seems to be your strait up mage, but has some support power as well. Engineers however are more emphasized on close range and seem to have plentiful AOE and stationary advantages such as traps and turrets. Rounding it out squig herders are a versatile pet class that combines their own dmg with that of their pets to equal the others along with a lil utility of their own.

The job for all 3 is most definitely the same but the means of getting there, their mechanics, is in fact radically different.

[Tro]

I just watched a video that showed some of the abilities of all the classes for the dwarf and greenskins and something REALLY stuck out to me. I was told by many people that the healer's role in this game was going to be more melee/combat based and alot less of the "Stand back and heal" variety. Even the head designer said that he thought standing back and healing was dumb.

But how is the runepriest not a class that just stands back and heals? All of his heals go off at 150 feet, and all of his offensive abilities go off at 100feet. He DOES have some abilities that are only 30feet range, but that's hardly "In the thick of things".

Ultimately I see no reason for anyone to ever want to play a Warrior Priest or any kind of direct combat healer that requires thought when you can just play the "Stand back and heal" class which is the rune priest. I know that the game isn't even out yet, but I can use deductive reasoning to see that this is what this class is going to do.

Someone please say it ain't so!
not melee/healing. its offence/healing. no more only healing. you now have to use offence

[Perp]

not melee/healing. its offence/healing. no more only healing. you now have to use offence

Not in the build that's been playable at the last 3 gamesdays.

[Perp]

The job for all 3 is most definitely the same but the means of getting there, their mechanics, is in fact radically different.

Not really. The ways they heal are heal for x, heal for x /w a HOT at the end, HOT, AOE group heal. Wow 4 ways to heal; radically different mechanics going on there.

The other aspects of the healing archtypes are different and create some variety in their gameplay experience outside of healing. When you look at their primary "job" of healing the mechanics are all the same.

[Randell44]

Not really. The ways they heal are heal for x, heal for x /w a HOT at the end, HOT, AOE group heal. Wow 4 ways to heal; radically different mechanics going on there.

The other aspects of the healing archetypes are different and create some variety in their game play experience outside of healing. When you look at their primary "job" of healing the mechanics are all the same.

Someone didn't read very well and plucked something out of context so that they could use it. That was in reference to ranged DPS and obviously so. I went outa my way to say they had the largest example of mechanics differences and that was directly after the ranged DPS comparison paragraph.

Someone also plucked 1 particular aspect of a classes job out to compare that aspect rather than the entirety of the job yourself. The "healer classes", which I would officially like to call "support classes", heal in a variety of different ways with different limitations. However they also buff and debuff and contribute offense in vastly different ways. Buff/debuff can be just as big of a thing as healing and offense is part of their job as well.



You don't seem concerned with the actual results so much as proving your actual opinion.



EDIT: You also missed something in your misguided explanation you used in response to the wrong quote. The runepriest has a rune that heals someone gradually until the person marked activates it and gets a large heal I believe as well as enhancing healing on them before it's broken. Also the mere fact that you can preplace a heal and have someone else activate it.

[heavyhebrew]

I hope Mythic clarifies the issue on support mechanics soon.
First it is no healbot then it is healbots will heal more than varied support. I am confused....or maybe it is the pills the friendly people in the white coats give me?:)

Also, I almost reinstalled TGTSNBN again. Almost, I really need something to fill the rpg fix. Mass Effect doesn't come out till September.:mad:

[Randell44]

I hope Mythic clarifies the issue on support mechanics soon.
First it is no healbot then it is healbots will heal more than varied support. I am confused....or maybe it is the pills the friendly people in the white coats give me?:)

Well you can't break it down into just heal bots. The runepriest has a buffing emphasis from the descriptions given. The zealot has a debuffing/buffing emphasis. If you read their descriptions, check some of the abilities, and think about it you'll notice the RP and the Zealot actually seems to have a bit in common.

Both are give some good buffs and have some heals to back them up. In addition the zealot has some DOT's and nice debuffs, while the RP has some direct dmg and some crowd control.

The goblin shaman seems a bit estranged from both of them focused more directly on healing/dmg.



One thing you might keep in mind as well is the info we have from the gamesday vids is both very limited and very select. Until we have full ability lists available as well as the full tactics and morale lists and we have real world impact of them we don't have anywhere near as accurate an idea of them as we should.

Thus I'll put more reliance on the descriptions given supplemented by the ability info and such. Seeing as the descriptions more or less tell you flat out how they are intending to make the classes work.

[Perp]

People keep overlooking the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of min-max players out there who care more about playing with friends and maxing out their usefullness by minimizing (spec) what they do.

Hence you will see the strongest "teams" of people with healers that *gasp* pay attention to healing and buffing/debuffing their team/enemy. If you really buy into that "there will be no I heal and I heal and I heal crap" you must be thinking they are going to remove healing from the game.

Edit - it will be like 70-80% healing, and maybe like 50-60% healing from your secondary healers.

[Randell44]

People keep overlooking the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of min-max players out there who care more about playing with friends and maxing out their usefullness by minimizing (spec) what they do.

Hence you will see the strongest "teams" of people with healers that *gasp* pay attention to healing and buffing/debuffing their team/enemy. If you really buy into that "there will be no I heal and I heal and I heal crap" you must be thinking they are going to remove healing from the game.

Edit - it will be like 70-80% healing, and maybe like 50-60% healing from your secondary healers.

I agree somewhat but here is something I have learned from my time in MMORPG, especially COH/COV which is an EXCELLENT example, which makes a smart hybrid healer vastly superior to a healbot:

A good hybrid healer player isn't someone that ignores healing. It's someone that doesn't ignore anything actively done but healing dispels. If a good player goes plays the class hybrid as intended they will lower the danger to their team with buff, debuffs, and quicker kills, as well as appropriate heals. While the heal bot just tries to keep up with the dmg until it loss or victory.

THAT is the difference. So while a good healbot will most likely heal more, a good hybrid healer character will not only keep their team safer in the end, but contribute more towards the rest of combat.

Nobody thinks they are removing healing.

[Perp]

It comes down to pace though, if the game is fast paced you aren't going to be using much if anything with cast times other than heals for the majority of your in combat time. Instant casts such removing negative effects will also be spammed along side your heals. Any breaks you get will then be used to drop your buffs/debuffs.

Speaking for the support healers only of course.

[Randell44]

It comes down to pace though, if the game is fast paced you aren't going to be using much if anything with cast times other than heals for the majority of your in combat time. Instant casts such removing negative effects will also be spammed along side your heals. Any breaks you get will then be used to drop your buffs/debuffs.

Speaking for the support healers only of course.

Active play, especially early in the fight, can negate the NEED for healing. Morale abilities will also play a large factor in healing/dmg/cc/and buff/debuff. Tactics will also likely make a decent difference.

I highly doubt if you use your potential right that you won't have time to do anything but heal. Especially if you place your runes right beforehand, which was definitely stressed for RP. Or in zealots case harbringers and marks.

The goblin shaman is the only one that would really fall prey to that argument and they need to attack to have proper heals. Mythic has a good idea of what they are doing.

[Perp]

Active play, especially early in the fight, can negate the NEED for healing. Morale abilities will also play a large factor in healing/dmg/cc/and buff/debuff. Tactics will also likely make a decent difference.

I highly doubt if you use your potential right that you won't have time to do anything but heal. Especially if you place your runes right beforehand, which was definitely stressed for RP. Or in zealots case harbringers and marks.

The goblin shaman is the only one that would really fall prey to that argument and they need to attack to have proper heals. Mythic has a good idea of what they are doing.

I highly doubt if you use your potential right that you won't have time to do anything but heal.

BLAMMO

You sir finally got it right.

[Randell44]

I highly doubt if you use your potential right that you won't have time to do anything but heal.

BLAMMO

You sir finally got it right.

That however is complete conjecture that is not based on anything whatsoever except what you decided in your head. In all honesty some small part of the time it's liable to be true, I might have to bunker down and buff/heal/cc occasionally.

On the other hand however it is just as likely not to be true in many circumstances.

[Spikenog]

Ultimately I see no reason for anyone to ever want to play a Warrior Priest or any kind of direct combat healer that requires thought when you can just play the "Stand back and heal" class which is the rune priest

Not sure I follow you on this one bub...how does "standing in the thick of things healing" require anymore thought than "not standing in the thick of things healing"? In fact would it not be the opposite? What I mean is, wouldn't be easier to "stand in the thick of things and heal" as all the folks you want to heal are close to you, thus making the guy "not standing in the thick of things" work harder to pop off heals and keep in range of the people he needs heal?

They did mention that Runepriests are to have anumber of abilities that are PBAOE around themselves...requiring said Runepriest to be "standing in the thick of things...or just with his group".

[Bashful Runeheart]

From what I read in this thread, I find that Perp has a point. It is totally aberrant to think that a class would have to rely on you doing damage to be able to heal, here is why:

You are a Runepriest.

Here is a situation:

Your party/raid member is fighting an enemy player. He is about to die, you are running to him to actually save/heal him (which is main role). How unreliable is a class who would face this situation, and wouldn't be able to heal unless they have to nuke once or twice the guy and then heal; the gratification for each class as you play them comes to a success at doing what you do best. A Knight of B.S. best feeling would be to succeed at handling a raid of mobs that attacked the grouped. A Nuker's best feeling would be to crit-hit for a really high damage portion. Well, a *healer's* best feeling would be to be able to save his budd out of a situation like the one I mentioned above (trust me on this one, I've faced situation like those and you feel real proud after).

Relying on your damage to be able to heal yourself is completly absurd. I like the idea that there is a dependant factor somewhere and that you don't have the easy "I heal, and I heal, etc..." job, but come on, some people just don't like to mix damage with healing. As for myself, I have experience as a raw healer, this doesn't mean I stayed still not touching my mouse and press 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1. No, it means I was always present and self-aware of my role and if I wasn't healing, I was debuffing, buffing or doing other stuff that made me feel like a great support deal. If my group was on top of their stuff and really "kicking buts", I would THEN allow myself to do some damage.

Now I am insulted when I see people complaining about a class that will be able to heal easily. We do have the easy healing, but that is a decision you take when you pick the class, and that is what I love about it. We pick the easy healing, in exchange we lose on the higher damage, but when you think of it picking a class is all about balancing your own tastes. I don't think we have specific roles to follow in this game, but only one role as a player that you need to follow, which is to pick the right class.

It is very great to see that not every class will have their own ways of healing, some better at it than others. Just like some will be better than others at doing damage. That is what you want to see in a game, differiences from one class to another. I really feel some people would jump with happyness to see the Runepriest get the same mechanics as the WP or Sham.

Just trust the devs.

Bashful R.

[Vikingfuneral]

Runepriest is the closest thing to a buff/healbot class in WAR. Not that is a bad thing, some people like being pure support. (I don't mind it if the people I'm supporting are capable players)


My only concern is that Destruction gets a similar defensive healing class and all other support classes aren't left in the dust, like for example people snubbing Warrior Priests becuase maybe their heals aren't as ubar as Runepriests.

[Kuari]

Well, the main reason it concerns me is because it DOES seem like a "and I heal, and I heal, and I heal" type of class... sure, throw in the buffs for prep, maybe the occaisonal damage, but really sounds comparable to a WoW Priest... except Runepriest buffs are shorter duration, but can be stored.

Why this could be a bad thing? Well for one, it'd be adding something Mythic explicity stated they wouldn't. secondly.. the question of, will they be favored over the other healers?

[Randell44]

Runepriest is MORE support oriented than the other hybrids but this is still split between buffs, and his can work very different from your current idea of buffs, and crowd control, and debuffs, and healing.

A lil dmg on the side.


I think you'll find trying to play a RP as a healbot will not be near as effective as you think. Their goal is to make every healer actively involved in the fight. Runepriest will be no exception though the ways he is actively involved might be slightly different.

Also as mentioned many of his fight turning abilities are close range.

[Perp]

Well, the main reason it concerns me is because it DOES seem like a "and I heal, and I heal, and I heal" type of class... sure, throw in the buffs for prep, maybe the occaisonal damage, but really sounds comparable to a WoW Priest... except Runepriest buffs are shorter duration, but can be stored.

Why this could be a bad thing? Well for one, it'd be adding something Mythic explicity stated they wouldn't. secondly.. the question of, will they be favored over the other healers?

They will likely be the favored healer for most organized groups. The other 2 order healers will be the secondary support dps classes. They can do both dps and heal, just not heal as good as the runepriest or dps as well as a dps class.

Bad thing? I don't think so.

[Dram]

It is possible buffing/CC is far more important/efficient than spam healing.

This would be the case if:

1. If hit points are high enough to result in a long fight, and the spammable heal doesn't fill up the health bar enough when compared to the benefits from debuffing/CCing the enemy (or buffing one's allies) - it will be better to buff/debuff/CC.

2. If the non-spammable heals such as HOT's (Heal over time), heals on a timer (every 15 or 30 seconds) and/or group heals are the more powerful choices (better AP/heal ratios, quicker casting).

Since the fights will last longer than warcraft, and there will be less CC and caster interrupts such as heavy stunning, counterspells, sheep/mez-type spells, healing will have to be underpowered otherwise the fights will last forever until people decide to turn battles into kill the healer affairs.

I think Rune Priest healing will be a tough class to balance, since they don't have a constraining mechanism like the shaman (waaugh), warrior priest (righteous fury) or some non-traditional healing like the elf mage's (drains).

[Bashful Runeheart]

1. If hit points are high enough to result in a long fight, and the spammable heal doesn't fill up the health bar enough when compared to the benefits from debuffing/CCing the enemy (or buffing one's allies) - it will be better to buff/debuff/CC.2. If the non-spammable heals such as HOT's (Heal over time), heals on a timer (every 15 or 30 seconds) and/or group heals are the more powerful choices (better AP/heal ratios, quicker casting).

For #1: I do not understand why this would make spammable heals less efficient, because the damage % taken away will be smaller too. The heals will remain in the range of what a few attacks can dish out. And I don't think you can debuff 3 Choppa raping someone, therefore the only counter move to that situation would be healing the target who is being attack, and yes, at least root one of the enemy, but that is the only crowd control ability I've heard of for the RP.

For #2: HoT will never have a better effect then a raw heal in pvp when you are fighting 2-3+ enemies. Even if the amount is greater then a heal, the amount of hp you get back from a casted heal is much more beneficial in a pvp situation than any other type of healing (besides instant cast heals but those won't exist i'm sure). Also, I don't know who wouldn't use both: cast HoT then spam heal. Finally, you should see it as DoT vs critical strike. Even if a DoT can dish out more dmg in the long run, a critical strike will always be more welcome during a fight; in PVP that is, because you need to take the enemy down as fast as you can.

Bashful R.

[Randell44]

For #1: I do not understand why this would make spammable heals less efficient, because the damage % taken away will be smaller too. The heals will remain in the range of what a few attacks can dish out. And I don't think you can debuff 3 Choppa raping someone, therefore the only counter move to that situation would be healing the target who is being attack, and yes, at least root one of the enemy, but that is the only crowd control ability I've heard of for the RP.

A. What he is saying is that if buffing/debuffing/cc is good enough it will not only lessen the need for heals but in fact begin to take priority over heals. You would still heal some but buff/debuff/cc would be the more attractive option many times.

For #2: HoT will never have a better effect then a raw heal in pvp when you are fighting 2-3+ enemies. Even if the amount is greater then a heal, the amount of hp you get back from a casted heal is much more beneficial in a pvp situation than any other type of healing (besides instant cast heals but those won't exist i'm sure). Also, I don't know who wouldn't use both: cast HoT then spam heal. Finally, you should see it as DoT vs critical strike. Even if a DoT can dish out more dmg in the long run, a critical strike will always be more welcome during a fight; in PVP that is, because you need to take the enemy down as fast as you can.

Bashful R.

Tell that to valkyries in DAOC. Before the nerf their HOT's combined with their durability made them absolute nightmares. Even now the HOT still plays a heavy role right, though the pbaoe instant heal has become more important thanks to the HOT nerfs.

As far as Crit strike vs DOT and HOT + heal vs HOT alone. This is all very situational. Burst dmg is NOT always better in PVP and usually has different limits from gradual dmg. These different limits and situations are what make one useful or another useful.

The overwhelming dominance in PVP of burst dmg is a design flaw IMO. When you allow people to take other folks down in ridiculously short amounts of time yes it will be used predominantly. However if people are more durable overall then you will see more of a balance between burst and gradual dmg. Healing too.


EDIT: Another note on HOTS. They are very useful dmg mitigation. You can cast them on someone before dmg rolls in and it heals them as they take dmg, negating the need for you to be johnny on the spot with the heal and freeing you up to cast another HOT, a heal, dmg, cc, buffs, etc. In many situations it's efficient beyond what normal healing could possibly be.

[Nogre]

Coming from someone who has experienced healing in both Guild Wars and WoW (and being focused on PvP in both games, as well), I think that the Rune Priest has a lot of promise. It has some elements of most of the types of healing and support I've seen. It sounds like it has buffs similar to a Prot Monk from GW, but still has the healing output of a Holy Monk or one of the more basic healers from WoW. It also sounds like they have some abilities reminiscent of a druid in the form of HoTs that will add another dynamic to the class. But at the same time, they have crowd control that reminds me of druid roots and cyclone which are a very welcome thing I've used in WoW PvP (my main in WoW being a druid). At the same time, they have buffs to damage and protection that seem like a WoW shaman's totems, only not all of them being AoE.

Here's an example from WoW where I think it's pretty easy to see why a healer using some buffs, some CC/damage, and some healing is more effective than a spam healer. A WoW shaman has some really good healing abilities, but they also have the Earth Shield buff, which has to be used well to maximize their potential, as well as using totems and occasionally other offensive spells in order to be the best they can be. The shaman can pop down totems beforehand without detracting much from their healing, and they have to maintain earth shield well, which is an instant cast that can be cast between heals. They also have to occasionally throw out an interrupt or snare during lulls when healing isn't as needed, and all of this can be done, without detracting a huge ammount from raw healing output. The rune priest has all of these abilities to use, and using one of them isn't the way to maximize their potential (although you certainly have respectable abilities using only one part within the class). Where they really shine is when do it all in a balance as needed by the group. I think the way that they're encouraged to do this is the same way I'm often encouraged on a druid to do other things. In PvP, due to the over time nature of my heals, I'm forced to use CC in order to maximize my usefullness (otherwise, I'm sitting around waiting for the heals to tick). A rune priests buffs and HoTs should work in the same way to give them the chance to use either extra damage or extra direct healing, whichever is needed the most. The cool thing is that with what I've heard about action points, you won't have the same kind of burn-out that comes from being "oom" in WoW, so you'll be able to maintain this kind of varied output for a long ammount of time instead of simply running out of mana because you're trying to do too much.

I also think the multi-facetted nature of this class allows for a lot of different strategies when used in conjunction with other classes. Example: Before the fight, you buff everyone up with the choice runes. When combat begins, you focus on healing until your allied Warrior Priest has built up some righteous fury to heal with. Then your melee people unleash their AoE nukes from the runes you laid down before the battle, and at the same time, you join your ranged damage in using this AoE damage as base to try to burst a few people down, then you immediately rebuff those who have used their runes. Then you run up and lay down an AoE debuff rune in an area where your team is being majorly pressured, and while you're there you throw out a few heals to help out the other healer. Then you fall back to refresh some runes on your ranged dps, and maybe throw a root on someone who is beating on one of your squishies

This is why I think that rather than being a heal-bot class, the runepriest will become a fluid hybrid whose task in the group is to make the entire group better through varied play, rather than try to focus on one task. This is why they aren't required to do everything, but the nature of their abilities is such that they can do everything without losing too much from the quality of their different skill sets individually. Of course, there will always be people who can't do everything, and there will be people who try to divide everyone into the tank, dps, and healer categories, but there's not much you can do about that. The best rune priests will be using all the facets of their abilities to effect the battle, because that's the best way they can sway the battle in favor of their own team.

[Varking]

Here is the thing. It could just be a regular healer like in other games if that is how you choose to play it. Meanwhile there will be other players using the Runepriest the correct way and there will be very limited downtime in a battle and they will be in the fray of the fight as well. It all depends on how you choose to play it.

[Captbigbeard]

From the videos I've seen it looks like the runepriest is best when he, buffs before battle, fights during battle, then heals and rebuffs after battle. I know when I played WoW, priests were best when they attacked and healed. In the end it will depend on the player, hopefully.

[Throwhemon]

sorry if this has already been posted but, contairy to popular belife the runepreist needs to get close to the action and doesnt just stand back and heal, he has alot of abilitys that require him to be next to his allys from the to work. his most powerful runes require him to be right in the thick of it and stay there.

[Captbigbeard]

sorry if this has already been posted but, contairy to popular belife the runepreist needs to get close to the action and doesnt just stand back and heal, he has alot of abilitys that require him to be next to his allys from the to work. his most powerful runes require him to be right in the thick of it and stay there.

Thats very true... but at the same time he has some good distance attacks. He also dosen't look like he can soak up much damage. Theres a video of a black orc almost instantly kill a runepriest, only to be DOTed by the same dwarf a 2nd later!

[LordSoth]

Thats very true... but at the same time he has some good distance attacks. He also dosen't look like he can soak up much damage. Theres a video of a black orc almost instantly kill a runepriest, only to be DOTed by the same dwarf a 2nd later!

I don't recall any DOT rune priest abilities.

also I didn't notice any real good range damage either.

[Truce]

I don't recall any DOT rune priest abilities.

Rune of Immolation: Your target begins to Burn, inflicting damage over 10 seconds. 90 AP, 100 range

also I didn't notice any real good range damage either.

Define a "real good" ranged damage ability. The lists we have don't include stats so we can't make exact comparisons with similar abilities on other classes. The runepriest does have a few, though. Including Rune of Immolation from above, there's also the following:

Rune of Striking: Damages your target. 90 AP, 100 range.

Rune of Smiting: Deals heavy damage to your target. Morale ability, 100 range.

Many of the runepriest's abilities seem to be AE effects that radiate out from the caster, including 5 of their 6 known morale abilities. This will certainly encourage runepriests to get into the thick of the action, where they can hit the maximum number of targets with these abilities.

[Aeternitas]

Remember it is still in beta. I'm pretty sure they will get tweaked a lot to minimize the "heals only". Plus i believe they are making the heals shorter range so the runpriest will have to be in the think of things. Every video i have seen, with a runepriest in it, has the runepriest in between the Brightwizards and the hammerers.

[Loekii]

Remember it is still in beta. I'm pretty sure they will get tweaked a lot to minimize the "heals only". Plus i believe they are making the heals shorter range so the runpriest will have to be in the think of things. Every video i have seen, with a runepriest in it, has the runepriest in between the Brightwizards and the hammerers.

Are not the engineers the 'range' profession for Dwafs anyway?

[Sethno]

I've been watching a lot of the Runepriest videos that are around and I must say that in my opinion it really looks like a fun class! However, I am not your normal MMORPG player. I am in the very small minority of people that actually enjoy playing healing/support type classes. I find it quite fun and exciting. So, I'm quite glad they have a few classes that appeal to players who enjoy support type classes.

-Sethno

[Kalyptein]

Not sure if this was mentioned earlier but I'd imagine that the higher morale abilities will require closer range (maybe even melee) and they may have stuff like
"Rune of Burning Vigor" Heavy melee attack branding the target - 50% damage dealt on target returned as health for x seconds.
forcing the RP into melee to get the most out of it, not to mention thje already known Tier 1 Morale skills while have much shorter ranges so I doubt the good RPs will be spamming heals from 120 feet out

[Dracohouston]

Not sure if this was mentioned earlier but I'd imagine that the higher morale abilities will require closer range (maybe even melee) and they may have stuff like
"Rune of Burning Vigor" Heavy melee attack branding the target - 50% damage dealt on target returned as health for x seconds.
forcing the RP into melee to get the most out of it, not to mention thje already known Tier 1 Morale skills while have much shorter ranges so I doubt the good RPs will be spamming heals from 120 feet out

That would be awesome for when you have melee dps in your face :D