If there were female Chosen...

[Kuari]

OK, yes, I know there is a topic on this, but I wanted to go into a little more detail... find some good yes reasons and no reasons... so let's get started shall we? Read the poll question and answer.

Picture #1: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...t/femchose.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v102/vexator/art/femchose.jpg)
Picture #2: http://www.images.monkeytaskforce.co...ChosenGirl.jpg (http://www.images.monkeytaskforce.com/war/ChosenGirl.jpg)
Picture #3: http://www.warhammeralliance.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=798&c=7

Any who vote other, please explain why... or the other option is rather pointless..

Oh, and serious question... for those who chose #3... how do you think that represents what a Chosen should look like beyond the armor style? I mean... she's as skinny as a night elf... Chosen are basically supposed to be mountains compared to others, right?

[versuvius]

HELL! i like em all!

[Kuari]

Two others, no reason given.... GIVE US A GOOD REASON DAMN IT!!!! Come on!!!! I can't think of one no reason that isn't up there, so tell usssss

[Aqe]

No, against warhammer IP.

[Kuari]

No, against warhammer IP.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!

They're in the IP... even more then fighting female dwarves and female WP... therefore, you should have chose the answer that says no to them as well

*presses a button and makes Age fall through a trap door*

[dutch_gamer]

Two others, no reason given.... GIVE US A GOOD REASON DAMN IT!!!! Come on!!!! I can't think of one no reason that isn't up there, so tell usssss

I voted no other because I really don't understand what you even mean with the following: No, if it can't look completely feminine yet iconic, I don't want it".

I simply just don't want to see female Chosen, not in any way. Mythic and GW decided against it and I am fine with that decision. When they say it is lore, it is lore. Even when it isn't lore to what we know, it is still GW who ultimately decides this, no matter what unofficial loremasters tell us. It is probably mostly just a model problem as was claimed before by someone from Mythic. But even so, they decided against putting them in. Thus no matter in what way some people may want to see them, I still don't want them in the game, in any shape or form. And this only because of one reason, because Mythic and GW don't want the include them. When I say I want everything to be according to the lore, I mean the lore in the way GW sees it (even when it is just a silly reason) and not in what we know about the lore. It is in the end always GW's own license to change parts of the lore, every which way they see fit. And yes, that includes adding female Warrior Priest and allowing female Dwarfs to fight.

[Kuari]

I voted no other because I really don't understand what you even mean with the following: No, if it can't look completely feminine yet iconic, I don't want it".

I simply just don't want to see female Chosen, not in any way. Mythic and GW decided against it and I am fine with that decision. When they say it is lore, it is lore. Even when it isn't lore to what we know, it is still GW who ultimately decides this, no matter what unofficial loremasters tell us. It is probably mostly just a model problem as was claimed before by someone from Mythic. But even so, they decided against putting them in. Thus no matter in what way some people may want to see them, I still don't want them in the game, in any shape or form. And this only because of one reason, because Mythic and GW don't want the include them. When I say I want everything to be according to the lore, I mean the lore in the way GW sees it (even when it is just a silly reason) and not in what we know about the lore. It is in the end always GW's own license to change parts of the lore, every which way they see fit. And yes, that includes adding female Warrior Priest and allowing female Dwarfs to fight.

Well, main reason they don't want to include them is because they don't feel they can make them feminine while still making them Chosenish... and actually it was more Mythic's decision. They felt it was an art issue, and by my understanding GW just kind of said "ok"... Didn't say that's the way it had to be, just oked it.

So in the end it was purely Mythic's decision...

Personally I don't agree with your reason though because it goes along the lines of "If they told you to jump off a bridge, would you do it?" kind of thing... sure it's a little more extreme, but same basic concept. Sorry if that sounds rude, but that's just the way I see your reasoning.

The iconic thing basically means being able to distinctly tell male and female apart while still having the female look the Mythic definition of iconic... personally I think with the first picture it's been proven that it can be done, but that's just an opinion I guess.


....and yes, people, I am going to challenge your reasons if you say other... just a friendly little debate.

[Spork]

I voted “Yes, Other” because I don’t really like any of the pictures used, but I wouldn’t want the female Chosen to look exactly the same as their male counterparts. However, I don’t want them to necessarily be smaller, just different. Exactly what about their look would I want make different? That I do not know.

[Ceilingcat]

I choose the first one. It looks like what the Chosen should be, shape-wise, but it lacks proper Chaos imagery. The legs could also due to be a bit longer, and the hips a bit more prominent (right now it looks like her legs connect straight to her torso), but overall it fits.

[Kuari]

I choose the first one. It looks like what the Chosen should be, shape-wise, but it lacks proper Chaos imagery. The legs could also due to be a bit longer, and the hips a bit more prominent (right now it looks like her legs connect straight to her torso), but overall it fits.

That's the kind of thing why I said similar *shrugs*

[Heresy]

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!

They're in the IP... even more then fighting female dwarves and female WP... therefore, you should have chose the answer that says no to them as well

*presses a button and makes Age fall through a trap door*

Post proof that isn't a Slaneeshi Champion.

[Spork]

That's the kind of thing why I said similar *shrugs*Well, then I guess I’m saying I wouldn’t want them to be similar to those pictures at all.

[dutch_gamer]

Well, main reason they don't want to include them is because they don't feel they can make them feminine while still making them Chosenish... and actually it was more Mythic's decision. They felt it was an art issue, and by my understanding GW just kind of said "ok"... Didn't say that's the way it had to be, just oked it.

So in the end it was purely Mythic's decision...

Personally I don't agree with your reason though because it goes along the lines of "If they told you to jump off a bridge, would you do it?" kind of thing... sure it's a little more extreme, but same basic concept. Sorry if that sounds rude, but that's just the way I see your reasoning.

The iconic thing basically means being able to distinctly tell male and female apart while still having the female look the Mythic definition of iconic... personally I think with the first picture it's been proven that it can be done, but that's just an opinion I guess.


....and yes, people, I am going to challenge your reasons if you say other... just a friendly little debate.

Even with GW just saying ok, it is still their OK that leads to the final decision. It really doesn't matter if the idea came from Mythic or not, it is ultimately GW's decision. They could have easily disagreed with Mythic but they didn't. Everything and yes, I really mean everything that is put into the game has to eventually get GW's approval. And you also have got to understand that this game is like batman, you can't and won't like every single decision they make. This is why I will always support their decisions when it comes to lore, because it is their game and GW's IP and not our IP.

I also must say, it is not such a friendly little debate when you will always shoot someone's opinion down when they say no. When someone says no, other, I am sure you will always find their reasoning flawed. And that is because you want to have the female Chosen and will not agree with reasons against it. Sorry, this may sound rude but that is how I see your reasoning against my post. I can understand that you disagree with it. But it looks more like you are trying to just shoot down everyone that is against your own opinion.

[Ashnari Doomsong]

Look, Heresy.
Read Trollslayer. Female Champion of Khorne, on the way to Daemonhood. Proof being, she shouts "Blood for the Blood God!" on one occasion at the least.

Honestly, what's this nonsense about Chaos women only being Slaaneshi? Where the hell does that come from?

[versuvius]

Bloody agreed! She does do mild slaaneshi things with a khorne prince but thats beside the point!

[Heresy]

Look, Heresy.
Read Trollslayer. Female Champion of Khorne, on the way to Daemonhood. Proof being, she shouts "Blood for the Blood God!" on one occasion at the least.
Thank you.

Honestly, what's this nonsense about Chaos women only being Slaaneshi? Where the hell does that come from?

Dechala is (was) the only case of a female Chosen known to me, hence.

[Kuari]

Post proof that isn't a Slaneeshi Champion.

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay: Tomb of Corruption I've been told has a Tzeentch one

and dutch... of course I'm going to try to shoot down your opinions if I find a reason against it....

Now yes, GW did approve the no female Chosen thing... but they could have just as easily approved adding them. Quite simply, they don't give a damn about it. Now we may not like every decision Mythic makes, but the reason we're here is to try to keep Mythic on track and let us know what we're thinking. It's pointless for us to be here if every decision they make is final.

We're not here to be sheep, or shouldn't be. The entire point of feedback is to let them know what's wrong with what they're doing.

[Fiendish]

I voted for #2.

Why, I think they should be large and bulky like there male counterparts, yet they should also have some defining female characteristics. Enough to give them a definite female form. So I would go with a large muscular frame (ala female bodybuilder) but still accentuate things like a skinny waste, large breasts, large hips, an hourglass. You could even over exaggerate these to nail the female aspect, becasue these are females warped by chaos.

I would use more armor than is shown in drawing 2, it should still encase the whole body as any chaos warrior. I would also let the designs and patterns on the armor draw attention to the basic female hourglass shape I talked about accentuating above. With all the squiggly lines and shapes in Tzeentchian design you could easily do this.

[Nextrodaet]

Oh, and serious question... for those who chose #3... how do you think that represents what a Chosen should look like beyond the armor style? I mean... she's as skinny as a night elf... Chosen are basically supposed to be mountains compared to others, right?

First point: The concept art was drawn deliberately like that to show how the armor would translate to the female form, using a bog-standard poser model as reference. The reason I did this was because I wanted to see how "Iconic" I could get it without changing the current Chaos female model. Essentially, it was an experiment to see if you could pull off a Chosen without making too much extra work.

Second point: She is not holding a weapon, as was originally intended. The weapon actually does a hell of a lot for making her look more "bulky". It's like it weaves a subtle optical illusion that makes you believe that the model is actually stronger and bulkier than she looks. Add a shield onto that and she looks really quite formidable.

Third point: She looks much bulkier wearing a cloak, again, as was originally intended. The reason I didn't include the cloak was because I got too excited with wanting to upload it because I really wanted to show everyone what I was up to.

Just thought I'd give you a bit more information so you understand where I was coming from with it.

Much respect to you all. :)

[Kuari]

Despite that, still looks as skinny as a night elf... which is very non-Chosenish... definately got the armor's look down though.

[Gemini]

Now yes, GW did approve the no female Chosen thing... but they could have just as easily approved adding them. Quite simply, they don't give a damn about it.

This is what I don't get, people just saying "Oh, GW just dosn't care." I'm not saying it's not true, but I don't get why they think that. Josh said Art, Design, and GW decided on it. Thats all he said about GW, and suddenly people are saying "GW is just letting Mythic do what they want". This goes against everything we know about GW's interactions with Mythic.

I personally don't feel that those three pictures don't really captuer the iconic chosen look. I voted yes on the other thread, but voted no here. At the time, before seeing more of what Mythic has to say about it, I thought it was stupid. I thought "sure, they could do it", and many others have insisted they could.
But, the thing is, I'm not an artist, and I'm defiantly not a graphics guy for a video game with very good graphics. I have no idea what it's like to make 40 sets of armor plus extras for any class, let alone a female chosen. And really, I'm betting good money none of you know what it's like either. It's alot easier for us to say "Yeah, they could do it" without knowing anything about what it's like. If one of finds yourself qualified to say what it's like, by all means, I'd love to hear it. Englighten us, no matter what side of the issue you are on.

[Kuari]

Try imagining the first picture with the actual Tzeentchian design... how different from the male would it look? Only enough the look very slightly feminine... I think that people don't notice that because of lack of imagination...

Now as for GW not caring, ok, if that's the way they want it rather then not caring if Mythic adds female Chosen, then that's probably would have been what would have been said. I mean, going by their track record, for most issues, it seems like they'll flat out say yes or no. On this particular one, there seems to be more of an air of this particular issue not being all that big to GW.

Seriously though #2 and 3 I can see not capturing the Chosen image properly, but #1, a little imagination and you should be able to see it. I mean, come on... does a slightly more slender waist with the chest going out a little more comparitively REALLY take away from the entire image? Picture it with the Tzeentch symbols and the Chosen helmet and all of that rather then take it as it is. Use some imagination as I hinted at in the poll.

Read the bold... I know it lacks the symbolism and such, thus why I tried to point that out...

Yes, and it should look similar to picture #1 with more Chosen flavor

[Karandor]

Try imagining the first picture with the actual Tzeentchian design... how different from the male would it look? Only enough the look very slightly feminine... I think that people don't notice that because of lack of imagination...

Now as for GW not caring, ok, if that's the way they want it rather then not caring if Mythic adds female Chosen, then that's probably would have been what would have been said. I mean, going by their track record, for most issues, it seems like they'll flat out say yes or no. On this particular one, there seems to be more of an air of this particular issue not being all that big to GW.

Seriously though #2 and 3 I can see not capturing the Chosen image properly, but #1, a little imagination and you should be able to see it. I mean, come on... does a slightly more slender waist with the chest going out a little more comparitively REALLY take away from the entire image? Picture it with the Tzeentch symbols and the Chosen helmet and all of that rather then take it as it is. Use some imagination as I hinted at in the poll.

Read the bold... I know it lacks the symbolism and such, thus why I tried to point that out...

Yes, and it should look similar to picture #1 with more Chosen flavor


This issue is dead in the water man. Just RP your chosen as a female and never take off the helmet. They're not even really human anymore anyway.

[Kuari]

This issue is dead in the water man. Just RP your chosen as a female and never take off the helmet. They're not even really human anymore anyway.

Voices make a difference, thus option 4... and issues only die if you let them...

[illukar]

Design-wise, since the class ends up pretty much a tin with muscle and chaos in it (so far as I understand), I don't see any particular difficulty actually designing armor for a female Chosen. 'Big burly Northmen' are matched by big strapping Northwomen. In other words the women who give birth to 'Northmen' tend to be tall and strongly built as well. The Norse mythology of the Valkyrie also supports the idea of a warrior woman. Both genders can be warped by chaos into an excess of muscle.

It rather sounds to me that during the design stage it just upset someone's aesthetic sense - big, strapping Northwomen developing into walls of muscle were a turn off to them. There's no artistic impossibility in designing one, they just did not find the idea of big strapping women who mature into tin-wearing walls of muscle attractive, doubted that anyone else would, and decided not to spend any time on what (if any) variations of armor would be required.

But - ah well. Moot point. I would have been _more likely_ to play a Chosen if there was a female option, but I learned long ago that there's no point arguing with people over decisions they've already made.

[Kuari]

Actually, I'm pretty sure we're here to give Mythic feedback, even if that means complaining... meaning if you hate a decision, you're supposed to actually try to do something.... I mean, actually, I'm sure most of us are here for the free information... but that's not what we're supposed to be doing *shrugs*

We're supposed to be complaining and such. That's part of our job here. Just keeping it at a mature level rather then OMFGNERF kind of stuff... all I want is Mythic to be consistant about things rather then giving reasons against something that could be used against something else they did, as is the case here.

[Jerrus]

Chosen are not simply Norsemen with bulky armour, they have taken the first step on the path of daemonhood (spawnhood ;) )

Thier artwork has a distict look, which IMO will be hard to make Feminine without ruining the "inconic look". If they can pull it off, it would be lovely.

Example 1 (http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/hordesofchaos/artwork/images/art10.jpg)
Example 2 (http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/hordesofchaos/artwork/images/art04.jpg)
Example 3 (http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/hordesofchaos/artwork/images/art12.jpg)
Example 4 (http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/hordesofchaos/artwork/images/art01.jpg)
Example 5 (http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/hordesofchaos/artwork/images/art05.jpg)
Example 6 (http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/hordesofchaos/artwork/images/art13.jpg)

But I don't want the game to be delayed due to catering to people who do not share GW/Mythics vision of the Warhammer world.

[Khargas]

Actually it s a matter of ROI (Return on Investment). Why should mythic put in all the time for the model, modify armor designs for 40 sets to match feminie characteristics, do the voicework, etc ect for the couple dozen who would make a female chosen? Isn't the time better spent on other content and improvements?

I'm pretty sure thats why COH/COV has only male huge models. Testing most likely showed that most players wouldn't play a character that looked like a East German shotputter.

[Jesper]

i've voted "No, if it can't look completely feminine yet iconic, I don't want it"

The real reason is that it will be a waste of time...i don't think there can be an adequate feminine yet iconic chosen; of the 3 posted, only the pencil sketch is going to right way imho, while the other 2 are totally non-iconic. The pencil one, anyway is quite iconic; though, i don't think there will be a lot of chosen female with that aspect, like there weren't many female troll palyer (even if this is really less ugly:D).

So, if they were in a hurry and/or had to develop something more "important" (or at least, something important for a truly bigger % than this) i think that they've done well, cutting something that, if it reached the release, a very small % of player will have played.

....
exactly what that guy stated:D

[Hatemonger]

How incompetent do you think Mythic is Jesper?

"Oh crap, we might have to work on TWO CLASSES SIMULTANEOUSLY! OH DEAR GOD!" *jumps out of a window*

Like I said, you guy sound a lot like those executives who claimed that no one would want to play Greenskins. I've come under the conclusion that you GUYS, have no idea what females would want to play. I can assure you the idea of a female Chosen is far more appealing than a squat midget in Leia braids.

[Ralzar]

Actually it s a matter of ROI (Return on Investment). Why should mythic put in all the time for the model, modify armor designs for 40 sets to match feminie characteristics, do the voicework, etc ect for the couple dozen who would make a female chosen? Isn't the time better spent on other content and improvements?

I'm pretty sure thats why COH/COV has only male huge models. Testing most likely showed that most players wouldn't play a character that looked like a East German shotputter.

Yeah, I thin kthat's pretty much it.

The thing is, female chosen is a special case from other fmeale careers, because you have to make a custom character model for them. Everyone else uses the same model.

Human Female Model: WP, WH, KoTBS, BW, Marauder (assuming they have females), Zealot and Magus.

Dwarf Female Model: Ironbreaker, Hammerer, Engineer and Runepriest.

(Edit: and when the elven classes are revealed, I'd bet they all use the same Elf Male and Elf Female models)

The female choses model would be used for just the chosen class and no other. That's a lot of extra effort for something that has such a limited use. Considering they allready have to make a special Chosen Male model.


That said, I just want female chosen with the male chosen model. With that much armour on, you shouldn't be able to determine gender.

[Jesper]

How incompetent do you think Mythic is Jesper?

"Oh crap, we might have to work on TWO CLASSES SIMULTANEOUSLY! OH DEAR GOD!" *jumps out of a window*

Like I said, you guy sound a lot like those executives who claimed that no one would want to play Greenskins. I've come under the conclusion that you GUYS, have no idea what females would want to play. I can assure you the idea of a female Chosen is far more appealing than a squat midget in Leia braids.

i'm only hungry for the game to exit lol:D i will approve every cut to the game in order to make it ship as sson as possible (what? no elfs inside? aw, elfs are pansy anyway, let's do the game w/o em! hooray!:D)

seriously now.
I think that dwarfs will need every player they can have:D Chaos is not going to need more love, while midgets do. And about Empire, you have to appel the majority of the dudes outside here; this means, a lot of subscription will come from ppl who'll want to play and Empireal dude (cause they're the only >real> human in this game)...so there's another reason why we have woman WP and not chosen.

And about greenskin being overplayed: we've said that this forum is not to be trusted because there are a lot of warhammer fans and hardcore war fans. If i'm correct, the same % of ppl is attending the gamesday too. I don't think that them show really representative % player population too.

[Hatemonger]

All right, all right, fair enough!

Stop dragging me bag into this thread!

*kicks stupid topic*

:p

[Kirska]

I can assure you the idea of a female Chosen is far more appealing than a squat midget in Leia braids.

Quoted for truth.

There are very few women gamers who don't to a certain extent like the idea of a feminine, yet incredibly powerful, female warrior. But there are many women gamers who don't particularly go for the short stubby dwarf with braids.

[Jesper]

Quoted for truth.

There are very few women gamers who don't to a certain extent like the idea of a feminine, yet incredibly powerful, female warrior. But there are many women gamers who don't particularly go for the short stubby dwarf with braids.

but any one of the latter will play an important role in game balance, while anyone of the first won't ;)

[Khargas]

Quoted for truth.

There are very few women gamers who don't to a certain extent like the idea of a feminine, yet incredibly powerful, female warrior. But there are many women gamers who don't particularly go for the short stubby dwarf with braids.

Oh that i'm sure, but would they want to play a 6'8", 400lbs woman with hands the sized of canned hams. Female chosen would require a radically different model than male chosen for them to be popular choice, so I think mythic declined on ROI grounds. My guild has had a consistent female presence since its inception, so I don't think i'm ignorant on the issue. Female players arent all about looks, but it is a factor, just as it is with male gamers.

[Hatemonger]

Male Chosen don't even look like that.

This is not a 400 pound steroid-popping monster. http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/conceptArt/full/CAT_0407_20.jpg. That is a typical barbarian-esque male. ;)

[Jesper]

Male Chosen don't even look like that.

This is not a 400 pound steroid-popping monster. http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/conceptArt/full/CAT_0407_20.jpg. That is a typical barbarian-esque male. ;)

well, in lore/tt chosen don't start from "even a rat can kill me" in order to become "zomg i'm a god". They just "start" near the latter part of the scale.

In WAR we can assume than a tier1 chosen is not even a chaos warrior:P (he hasn't chaos armor) So it's still a barbarian tribesman more than a godchosen mutant;)

[Khargas]

They might start out the same size as a human, but they rapidly become much taller, wider and heavier. Their hands and feet are out of proportion to the arms and legs while the head stays smaller. When they get their chaos armor it fuses into their body, making them even bulkier. A good idea of size is shown in the Mark of Chaos trailer, where the average Chaos warrior has a good 1-2 feet over a empire soldier. Lets assume a average height of 5'6" for a empire soldier (medieval lifestyle, grain and vegeatable diet with occassional meat when he can get it). Lets assume a 6'2" average height for a Northman. Shoot him up to 7 ft when Chaos begins to change him as a chosen and it makes a good size difference.

[Kuari]

Actually it s a matter of ROI (Return on Investment). Why should mythic put in all the time for the model, modify armor designs for 40 sets to match feminie characteristics, do the voicework, etc ect for the couple dozen who would make a female chosen? Isn't the time better spent on other content and improvements?

I'm pretty sure thats why COH/COV has only male huge models. Testing most likely showed that most players wouldn't play a character that looked like a East German shotputter.

I think this is why most of us would be willing to put up with Mythic jsut adding a female voice and head for Chosen...

And I think there may end up being more of them then you would think, either way... Chosen are probably going to be pretty popular... *shrugs*

[Khargas]

I think this is why most of us would be willing to put up with Mythic jsut adding a female voice and head for Chosen...

And I think there may end up being more of them then you would think, either way... Chosen are probably going to be pretty popular... *shrugs*


I figure it this way, if Mythic gets enough feedback for a heavy armored chaos female, they will add it in expansions as a chosen of another power. Maybe Nurgel to test how much pleasant appearance is a factor :)

[Kuari]

I figure it this way, if Mythic gets enough feedback for a heavy armored chaos female, they will add it in expansions as a chosen of another power. Maybe Nurgel to test how much pleasant appearance is a factor :)

I figure if they get enough feedback they'll just go ahead and change their minds about it... as long as people don't let the discussion die..

[AlienOverlord]

I voted #3, I still think that's a great design.

First point: The concept art was drawn deliberately like that to show how the armor would translate to the female form,

Second point: She is not holding a weapon,

Third point: She looks much bulkier wearing a cloak
Good clarifications. Those elements would make the design match closer to their male counterparts.

The last two points would not only make the design more imposing but also solve any 'Profile Recognition' problems that it would have while playing. And making the female Chosen taller than other any Chaos male classes would also assist in that. Heck, the female Chosen could be even taller than the male Chosen if Tzeentch wants them to be.

If you do that and put that design next to a male Chosen there's no question what class they are. But I guess there are still those that don't feel even with those modifications that it would keep the feel of the Chosen. It's an aesthetic choice, one I don't agree with, but I can still understand it.

Actually it s a matter of ROI (Return on Investment). Why should mythic put in all the time for the model, modify armor designs for 40 sets to match feminie characteristics, do the voicework, etc ect for the couple dozen who would make a female chosen? Isn't the time better spent on other content and improvements?
I could accept that if that was the reasoning Mythic gave. If they said the game is coming out a month sooner but some classes are only going to have one gender, including the Chosen, that'd be fine with me.

But it sounds like it was an artistic choice. Josh has said that the decision was made a while ago and they did not think they could make iconic looking female Chosen. It just seems odd IMO. I mean, what's the one iconic thing about Warhammer dwarfs apart from hammers and beer? Their beards. But Mythic has no problem with lots of beardless female dwarfs running around the game.

That made me think of something. Dwarf beards are supposed to get longer as they level up. What happens to the female dwarf characters? Longer hair? Mythic must have thought things like that out and made the effort for dwarfs, but not for the Chosen. I'm not saying there's a dwarf conspiracy (though you do have to watch them Stunties!), I guess Mythic just had to decide where they were going to bend the IP and where they were not going to try to bend it.

I figure if they get enough feedback they'll just go ahead and change their minds about it... as long as people don't let the discussion die..
I'm a bit more resigned about the whole thing. I doubt Mythic will modify in the class at this point (though you never know - they did re-do the Dwarf/Greenskin starter zones). But I still find the discussion interesting and it will certainly come up again when they announce their next gender-specific class.

[Karandor]

Again what is the point of female chosen when they will be in armour 100% of the time and aren't even human anymore? I really don't understand why a few people want it so bad.

If you've played warhammer tabletop you know what a chaos chosen/warrior of tzeentch looks like and you NEVER EVER see their face. The Thousands Suns (40k) are the troops of tzeentch and they are simply armour held together by magic and the soul of the transformed marine.

A chaos chosen IS his armour. RP your chosen as female, but there's no reason they would look feminine at all. A woman chosen would wear the same armour EXACTLY.

IMO a chosen of Tzeentch should never be allowed to take off their helmet.

[Kuari]

I'm a bit more resigned about the whole thing. I doubt Mythic will modify in the class at this point (though you never know - they did re-do the Dwarf/Greenskin starter zones). But I still find the discussion interesting and it will certainly come up again when they announce their next gender-specific class.

The difference is the fact that for something like Witch Elves, and Sorcerers, there is such strong lore against it.... well... Witch Elves definately... Sorcerer lore against it is about as good as the lore against female WP now that I think about it.

And Karandor, they may not technically be human, but they still have their voices... and they've been defined as male and female in lore, so, obviously there are still slight differences, though the ability to have sex being non-existant hardly matters..

As for those saying the whole female Chosen done right thing wouldn't be appealing?... Trust me, it'd be more appealing then you'd think... sure wouldn't look very feminine.... hell, the people who would be interested in them would probably mostly be female though. We don't know if they'll be appealing or not, but seems to me like the female gamers who have been responding would be interested...

[Vladimir Bloodkin]

In Norse, and Chaos society in general for that matter, women play the part of home runners. During the summer months, the men raid the south, and return in time for winter to harvest crops, hunt for the winter and so on and so forth. Always they are led by the chosen MALE of their clan. It would be understandable for Slaanesh worshippers to have female chosen, but definately not for Khorne, Nurgle, and best chance against for Tzeentch. Since Slaanesh is playing the smallest chaos part in this MMO, it just doesnt make sense. Also, although the DE classes havent been announced yet, I am certain that Wytches will be amongst them. And as we all know, wytches are female. Not like the Dark Eldar Wyches, who can be male or female, the Wytches of DE society are ALL female, and that wont change just so that men can RP as emos who like to wear bikinis and get stoned up all the time. I know GW too well for them to let that one slide.

[Kuari]

In Norse, and Chaos society in general for that matter, women play the part of home runners. During the summer months, the men raid the south, and return in time for winter to harvest crops, hunt for the winter and so on and so forth. Always they are led by the chosen MALE of their clan. It would be understandable for Slaanesh worshippers to have female chosen, but definately not for Khorne, Nurgle, and best chance against for Tzeentch. Since Slaanesh is playing the smallest chaos part in this MMO, it just doesnt make sense. Also, although the DE classes havent been announced yet, I am certain that Wytches will be amongst them. And as we all know, wytches are female. Not like the Dark Eldar Wyches, who can be male or female, the Wytches of DE society are ALL female, and that wont change just so that men can RP as emos who like to wear bikinis and get stoned up all the time. I know GW too well for them to let that one slide.

And yet there have been female chosen and every time they're mentioned they've been the leaders... there has been at least one example of a female Tzeentchian Chosen, and they were allowed in the TT.

Either way, there's more basis for a female chosen then a female WP, who, as already said, are all considered heretics.

And hey, look at that, there are actually 2 sexist a-holes voting.

[illukar]

Norse mythology, at least, has long included armored female warriors - namely the Valkyries. It's odd to see people saying that Norse culture wouldn't support the idea of a warrior woman.

[Jesper]

Norse mythology, at least, has long included armored female warriors - namely the Valkyries. It's odd to see people saying that Norse culture wouldn't support the idea of a warrior woman.

well this is not really a point you know ;) even if iconic look for a valkyrie is that of an armored woman, they weren't warriors. They were minor female goddes that chooses dead ppl and take them to the valhalla. A mortal imagery for a valkyrie is that of the crow (or wolf) that "prey" on the battlefield after the battle, choosing the body of the einerjar (spelling:D) between the fallen.

[illukar]

well this is not really a point you know ;) even if iconic look for a valkyrie is that of an armored woman, they weren't warriors. They were minor female goddes that chooses dead ppl and take them to the valhalla. A mortal imagery for a valkyrie is that of the crow (or wolf) that "prey" on the battlefield after the battle, choosing the body of the einerjar (spelling:D) between the fallen.

Escorting someone's soul to Valhalla and picking out their eyes to eat are...kinda different activities.

And, yeah, I should have referenced shieldmaidens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shieldmaiden) not Valkyries.

[Vladimir Bloodkin]

Escorting someone's soul to Valhalla and picking out their eyes to eat are...kinda different activities.

And, yeah, I should have referenced shieldmaidens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shieldmaiden) not Valkyries.

Exactly, the shield maidens are one of the only examples of women being consantly part of Nordic battles. Aiding their men, sledom ever leading them. I also know that being such a masculin society, it isnt a matter of whether or not the woman would be chosen by the gods, its a matter of whether or not they would be apt enough for their men to follow them. In times of peace and when the norse arent raiding, what do they have to do thats enjoyable for them? Drink, sing, tell stories, brag, have sex, and on occasion duel each other. If you've ever read Claws of Chaos, you know that just in the off season Kurt was forced to kill 12 of his friends. Now think about if it were a woman chosen that was leading. I think that the count of duels would be at least triple, and that by the time she had the reamainder of her hold on her side, it would be mostly shield maidens, and about 9 marauders. Oooh, frightening. And no, i'm not a sexist a-hole, your just a humanitarian who takes it in the butt. So what if I displace a few women with what I say? If what I say is closer to lore, I'm right, and theres not much you can say against it. I'm glad there are no female chosen, and I'm glad there are not going to be male Wytches. Just deal with it.

Also, give me a legitimate example of a chosen in Tzeentch Society (THAT ISNT A MAGUS!) A close combat killing, damage shrugging, ale drinking, village raping example.

[kharnage]

I chose

No, if it can't look completely feminine yet iconic, I don't want it

otherwise, people can just use the current chosen and pretend there is a girl inside the armour. No difference really.

[Kuari]

Also, give me a legitimate example of a chosen in Tzeentch Society (THAT ISNT A MAGUS!) A close combat killing, damage shrugging, ale drinking, village raping example.

There was one in Tome of Chaos I've been told... just trying to find a website that mentions it directly...

I chose

No, if it can't look completely feminine yet iconic, I don't want it

otherwise, people can just use the current chosen and pretend there is a girl inside the armour. No difference really.

Again, voices make a difference....

[kharnage]

Again, voices make a difference....

I can't imagine a feminine voice coming from a chosen, but that's just me.:)

[Kuari]

I can't imagine a feminine voice coming from a chosen, but that's just me.:)

Well you know the voice style that's often used for female villians in games and movies and such? That's the kind of thing that would fit... maybe make it a bit echoy

[Selandri]

Post proof that isn't a Slaneeshi Champion.

Warriors of Chaos, Chaos Army book. Please note this entry covers: Warrior, Champion, Knight, Knight Champion, Aspiring Champion, Exalted Champion, Lord of Chaos.

"Amongst the Northmen there are those who feel the pull of Chaos stronger than others. Their gods call to them. Such gifted men and women are said to tread the path of the gods, and head in search of glory, power and, ultimately, immortality."

It's Mythics decision but saying that female marauders / Chaos warriors do not exist is silly :)

Also, give me a legitimate example of a chosen in Tzeentch Society (THAT ISNT A MAGUS!) A close combat killing, damage shrugging, ale drinking, village raping example:

Tzeentch society? That kinda goes over my head a wee bit. Chosen are all close combat killing, damage shrugging things. Beyond that the lore isn't terribly explicit though I could go dig out Liber Chaotica: Tzeentch.

That said, every character, ie, non rank and file, of Tzeentch is at minimum a level 2 sorcerer. No way around it. It's what the Mark of Tzeentch does.

As to the whole "Oh well a woman would be looked down on", I have to admit that is somewhat sexist. This isn't Nordic society. Nor are these normal women. Again, to the army book:

"The Chosen of Chaos have physical manifestations of their god's power, their bodies warped and strengthened by mutation. Chosen are ferocious fighters, towering above normal men, with Chaos-infused muscles, sometimes even sprouting massive claws, wolf-like fangs, and many other alterations and gifts of the gods."

So to a Northman, by challenging their Gods Chosen champion simply because she has boobs, he'd be disrespecting his god.

His life expectancy would go down a fair bit. Even if the champion didn't tear him into little itty bits. Chaos is not normal human beings. When the Gods notice you, you change. Sometimes it's good for you, sometimes -Shrugs- It's less so. The matter stands, behind the armour, sex is kinda irrelevant.

P.S. Chaos armour, which all Chosen wear, is not removable therefore I find the concept of them engaging in sexual activity somewhat strange. It bonds itself to the flesh.

Edit: Kuari, if you can find the exact page number I'd be happy to look it up. Tome of Chaos is sitting in front of me but due to the whole forum browsing thing I'm barely a quarter through this months white dwarf so going dredging for it doesn't appeal. :)

[Kuari]

Edit: Kuari, if you can find the exact page number I'd be happy to look it up. Tome of Chaos is sitting in front of me but due to the whole forum browsing thing I'm barely a quarter through this months white dwarf so going dredging for it doesn't appeal. :)

I don't have the book, so was trying to look for it online... can't find it... so yeah, any specifics you have would work well

[Ceilingcat]

P.S. Chaos armour, which all Chosen wear, is not removable therefore I find the concept of them engaging in sexual activity somewhat strange. It bonds itself to the flesh.

Comic relevant. (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l284/Cielingcat/050221.gif)

[Yatta!]

Picture #3!

As for reasoning. Does a video game really need to make sense? :p

[Kuari]

Picture #3!

As for reasoning. Does a video game really need to make sense? :p

Should at least fit what it's based off of... and #3 only fits with the decoration, not the style...

Oh, if anyone brings up an excuse I saw at one point, can't remember where, about this not being a Warhammer lore simulator....


......
....
...
...
..
.

Yeah it is....

[Yatta!]

Fine, be that way! Make me pick #2. Meanie!

[Hatemonger]

P.S. Chaos armour, which all Chosen wear, is not removable therefore I find the concept of them engaging in sexual activity somewhat strange. It bonds itself to the flesh.

It certainly will be removable in this game though.

[Jesper]

It certainly will be removable in this game though.

*tryes to figure the face of a chosen who discovers that the rank 23 chaos armor he wears won't be removed any soon*

the horror!

[Flegler]

It certainly will be removable in this game though.

I wouldn't count on it. They could easily make it so Chosen can't unequip their armour, only replace it with a different suit. It's central to the concept of Chaos armour that it bonds to the skin.

Voted for pic #2, because she looks badass.

[versuvius]

maybe you get, armour that goes over the top of a small and weak under armour...i know it sounds daft, but its a concept

[AlienOverlord]

Fine, be that way! Make me pick #2. Meanie!Aw c'mon. Stick to your guns! :)

[ApricotSoup]

This was my take on it, upset they're not in :<

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/53681044/

[Arijharn]

My vote for 'no, other' is mainly for what I said in that other thread. I.e., more of a gender neutral stance.

Due to the fact that:
A) Chaos Armour is 'fused' to the skin of the wearer, for all intents and purposes becoming his skin, and;
B) The players worship Tzeentch.

It seems to be within the realm of possibility that gender traits aren't quite so important. For example, remove any large 'codpiece,' since they don't have what's there (or if they do, they don't have the urge to use it!) and make the characters muscle mass slightly smaller (but still in proportion) and generally I think you could stop any discomfort about which sex it is.

[Kuari]

My vote for 'no, other' is mainly for what I said in that other thread. I.e., more of a gender neutral stance.

Due to the fact that:
A) Chaos Armour is 'fused' to the skin of the wearer, for all intents and purposes becoming his skin, and;
B) The players worship Tzeentch.

It seems to be within the realm of possibility that gender traits aren't quite so important. For example, remove any large 'codpiece,' since they don't have what's there (or if they do, they don't have the urge to use it!) and make the characters muscle mass slightly smaller (but still in proportion) and generally I think you could stop any discomfort about which sex it is.

Why not vote for the female head/voice?

Voice makes a difference still *shrugs*
Voice is a very important trait.

[Selandri]

*Has DDO flashbacks at the mention of voice*

*Six foot hulking barbarian wanders into the room* "Hi guys." *Female voice = offputting.*

*Hot elven lass walks into the room* "Yo. Wassup." *Extremely deep male voice.*

While some of the armour is sure to be removable, I doubt they'll let you drop your trousers and expose yourself to the world. After all, you're a Chosen of Tzeentch, the sort of things that could be down there boggle the mind.

I do agree adding a female voice option for Chosen would seem comparatively easy to do ( As opposed to making a new model, with new animations etc. ) and give people at least an option.

*Wanders off to look through Chaos books for specific female characters*

Apart from Dechala it could be interesting. There's Bloody Maria but she's more a barber surgeon for mutants than a Chaos champion type.

Edit: Gorgeous pic, Apricot. You have talent!

[Arijharn]

Why not vote for the female head/voice?

Voice makes a difference still *shrugs*
Voice is a very important trait.

Mainly because it would just be a male's body with a woman's head on top. If they hint at a Chosen's strength (rather than outright display it) it wouldn't quite suspend disbelief in my opinion at least that if it was just a man with a woman's head.

[Damienx247]

I gotta go with #2, looks as scary as a female Chosen would look, yet still looks fememine.
#3 too scrawny, and #1 was just bad. I've done better in my off days, and I've been having a lot of off days drawing.

[Kuari]

I gotta go with #2, looks as scary as a female Chosen would look, yet still looks fememine.
#3 too scrawny, and #1 was just bad. I've done better in my off days, and I've been having a lot of off days drawing.

First off, #1 was a ten minute sketch... second off, you think you could do a better feminine chosen in bulky armor like that, then prove it.

Mainly because it would just be a male's body with a woman's head on top. If they hint at a Chosen's strength (rather than outright display it) it wouldn't quite suspend disbelief in my opinion at least that if it was just a man with a woman's head.

yet you're saying people should RP their Chosen as female with only the male ones available?

[Selandri]

Sheesh, for a sketch I find #1 quite brilliant. I wish I could draw like that -Shrug- All three pictures are well done. Not to mention downing someones artwork for no other reason than to be a git is a bit off don't you think?

I think the third pic is what the majority ( Not everyone! :P ) would want for a female Chosen. But it doesn't show Chaos. It's a woman in plate armour which may or may not be mutated.

She's not big and hulking. She's not big on muscle. And she has boobs. Now don't get me wrong, I like that style. I think, in fantasy, a breastplate with breasts is fine. But for Chaos, it seems off. Too much focus on sexuality in a faction where you can have tentacles growing out of your bellybutton.

Mythic decided to go with a hulking, armoured brute for their Chosen. They could add a female voice which would satisfy some, but a lot of folks would still be upset. "It's not feminine!"

I think for Mythics Chosen class, as in the MMO class not tabletop or what have you, the first sketch would be the best simply because it doesn't give up the bulk in order to make it more feminine. I still hold to my guns about Chaos armour and helmets though! ;)

[Kuari]

Sheesh, for a sketch I find #1 quite brilliant. I wish I could draw like that -Shrug- All three pictures are well done. Not to mention downing someones artwork for no other reason than to be a git is a bit off don't you think?

I think the third pic is what the majority ( Not everyone! :P ) would want for a female Chosen. But it doesn't show Chaos. It's a woman in plate armour which may or may not be mutated.

She's not big and hulking. She's not big on muscle. And she has boobs. Now don't get me wrong, I like that style. I think, in fantasy, a breastplate with breasts is fine. But for Chaos, it seems off. Too much focus on sexuality in a faction where you can have tentacles growing out of your bellybutton.

Mythic decided to go with a hulking, armoured brute for their Chosen. They could add a female voice which would satisfy some, but a lot of folks would still be upset. "It's not feminine!"

I think for Mythics Chosen class, as in the MMO class not tabletop or what have you, the first sketch would be the best simply because it doesn't give up the bulk in order to make it more feminine. I still hold to my guns about Chaos armour and helmets though! ;)

Oh I'm sure it's unlikely helmets will come off after Tier 1 for Chosen.... if they did, I'd want to rip out Mythic's lungs

[Hatemonger]

Oh c'mon, of course helmets will be removable. If ANYTHING will be removable, it will helmets. Well, helms and the things they specifically said would be, like shoulders. We've already seen NPCs in full Chaos Armor without helms.

[Kuari]

Oh c'mon, of course helmets will be removable. If ANYTHING will be removable, it will helmets. Well, helms and the things they specifically said would be, like shoulders. We've already seen NPCs in full Chaos Armor without helms.

....link to picture? Chosen are basically the one class that really shouldn't be able to remove armor since it's basically their skin after Tier 1... so would be more true to the lore to focus on a wide variety of helmet styles, and allow you to switch that no matter what helmet you're wearing *shrugs*

[Selandri]

While they probably will be removable, they shouldn't be! Away with logic! Away with proof! We want none of that dang high tech fangled whatsits ere! :P

You'll also find illustrations of Chaos warriors ( Models, even. Chaos Knight champion comes to mind. ) helmless. One wonders if that means the armour is simply everything but the helmet. It'd help with the whole eating / drinking thing at any rate.

[Hatemonger]

Gah. I hate trying to find screenshots. I'll try my best to find it though.

As for your point, well...that lore will not be applicable in WAR, or they will simply have changeable skin. I mean, we are constantly going to be getting bits of armor to change sets, so if that is changeable, then there's no reason switching off helms shouldn't be.

[Kuari]

Gah. I hate trying to find screenshots. I'll try my best to find it though.

As for your point, well...that lore will not be applicable in WAR, or they will simply have changeable skin. I mean, we are constantly going to be getting bits of armor to change sets, so if that is changeable, then there's no reason switching off helms shouldn't be.

Semi-true...

You know, I'd like to see this poll get more attention... wonder how many people who voted only for males didn't really notice the pictures that were out there...

So far on this particular poll, yes for females seems to be winning by a pretty good margin... guess we'll see once more votes come in.

[Arijharn]

yet you're saying people should RP their Chosen as female with only the male ones available?

How on earth did you draw that conclusion? I said it should be gender neutral. I.e., obviously not fully male, and obviously not fully female either, however, not 'non-descript' either.

I can't think of how to fully represent this, I'm not an artist, but I would say that while Chosen should still be 'behemoth's' they shouldn't have features that are easily definable as being male nor should they have features easily definable as being female either. For example, pronounced (even just a little bit) codpieces, mess of facial hair, hulking muscles that indicate a males anatomy (look at anatomy books if you're confused, the male and female bodies do have some differences barring the extra rib, genitalia and breasts). Of course, the artist is by necessity confined as to how much he can do and how much he can portray considering that we're all wearing hulking armour plates.

[Kuari]

How on earth did you draw that conclusion? I said it should be gender neutral. I.e., obviously not fully male, and obviously not fully female either, however, not 'non-descript' either.

I can't think of how to fully represent this, I'm not an artist, but I would say that while Chosen should still be 'behemoth's' they shouldn't have features that are easily definable as being male nor should they have features easily definable as being female either. For example, pronounced (even just a little bit) codpieces, mess of facial hair, hulking muscles that indicate a males anatomy (look at anatomy books if you're confused, the male and female bodies do have some differences barring the extra rib, genitalia and breasts). Of course, the artist is by necessity confined as to how much he can do and how much he can portray considering that we're all wearing hulking armour plates.

Being gender neutral is completely impossible when there are voices to consider

[LookinGreen]

When do you ever hear your toons voice? I mean even with 10 voice actors that would still end up rediculously repetitive.

[Kuari]

When do you ever hear your toons voice? I mean even with 10 voice actors that would still end up rediculously repetitive.

Well voices have been confirmed for NPCs for sure... I'm sure there will be some grunts and pain noises made by your character in combat...

[Hatemonger]

Emotes, war chants, grunts, spells. etc.

Oh, and sorry dude. Couldn't find the screenshots. Its cool if you don't believe me, but trust me, they exist. Don't know why this site's damn screenshot archive isn't complete. Like I need fifty Dwarf pictures standing in the same post. :x

[Kuari]

Emotes, war chants, grunts, spells. etc.

Oh, and sorry dude. Couldn't find the screenshots. Its cool if you don't believe me, but trust me, they exist. Don't know why this site's damn screenshot archive isn't complete. Like I need fifty Dwarf pictures standing in the same post. :x


Well, if they do, hopefully they weren't done designing the helmets

[LookinGreen]

Hmm didnt think that emotes did anything beside words on a screen and gather I haven't played a MMO for about a year I don't remember muttering while casting or anything either guess you learn something new everyday. Well now that I know its in I think it should be out as that would get very repetitive and annoying having 1000's of people in the same class with the same voice anyways.

And sharapova's grunts are manlier than mine anyways :eek:

[Hatemonger]

Nevermind, found it. http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/ss_june8_08.jpg

Yeah, there are definitely voices. Remember everyone complaining about how the goblin voices sounded awhile back?

edit: By the way, I'd just like to say that I hate the dragon feet on Chosen. There had better be plenty of cool-looking armor without them. Also, I hope armor dyes can take some of the eyesore away from all the blue and purple.

[LookinGreen]

Just assumed they were NPCs

[Hatemonger]

Uh...yeah.

I said that in first post. :p

[Kuari]

Nevermind, found it. http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/ss_june8_08.jpg

Yeah, there are definitely voices. Remember everyone complaining about how the goblin voices sounded awhile back?

edit: By the way, I'd just like to say that I hate the dragon feet on Chosen. There had better be plenty of cool-looking armor without them. Also, I hope armor dyes can take some of the eyesore away from all the blue and purple.

OK, I'm doubting helmets weren't finished or something... don't get why they'd have every single one of the Chosen in that pic lacking a helmet.

As for the "dragon" feet... actually, pretty sure they're supposed to be bird talons

[Hatemonger]

Dude. That helmless Chosen screenshot is from June 8, 2007.

Check out these from April. http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/SS0423_Chosen_09.jpg
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/SS0423_Chosen_10.jpg
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/SS0423_Chosen_12.jpg

and then this came out the same month: http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/ss_june8_06.jpg

Still, you could be right. They are just NPCs, they might just not have felt like putting helmets on them.

Thanks for the tip on the feet though. They still suck though. :p

[Selandri]

Is it just me or is the Magus type guy in the front wearing fuzzy bear paw slippers?

[Hatemonger]

It's just you. :p

[Arijharn]

Being gender neutral is completely impossible when there are voices to consider

Then you don't have 'straight' voices and are therefore mixed and altered. How about having both a female and a male voice spoken at the same time. Afterall, this is Tzeentch we're talking about, changer of the ways and all that.

As long as it's done to make it not sound horrible, and it is clear and easily understood, then I don't think it's a bad thing at all.

EDIT: I left out the bold word :(

[Gemini]

Then you don't have 'straight' voices and are therefore mixed and altered. How about having both a female and a male voice spoken at the same time. Afterall, this is Tzeentch we're talking about, changer of the ways and all that.

As long as it's done to make it not sound horrible, and it is clear and easily understood, then I don't think it's a bad thing at all.

EDIT: I left out the bold word :(

Hahah, that would be awesome. I vote for that!

[Kuari]

Then you don't have 'straight' voices and are therefore mixed and altered. How about having both a female and a male voice spoken at the same time. Afterall, this is Tzeentch we're talking about, changer of the ways and all that.

As long as it's done to make it not sound horrible, and it is clear and easily understood, then I don't think it's a bad thing at all.

EDIT: I left out the bold word :(

Well, still the fact remains, that despite them being mutated, under that shell, they're still male or female. Why else would they diffferentiate in the lore?

[LookinGreen]

How bout they are mutated until being hermaphrodites everybody's happy. To quote stephen Lynch "She's part girl, she's part boy, shes got parts everyone can enjoy"

[Kuari]

How bout they are mutated until being hermaphrodites everybody's happy. To quote stephen Lynch "She's part girl, she's part boy, shes got parts everyone can enjoy"

Those would specifically be Slaanesh Chosen

[Selandri]

Head + desk x lots.

Slaanesh != hermaphrodite Chosen.

The voice idea has merit in fluff, Tzeentch champions armour spouts mouths that speak in different voices. God I love Tzeentch.

Also, consider this: Mutations range from having your face torn off and replaced with a daemons to having your blood sucked out and replaced with anything from excrement to ants.

Are you honestly sure you even want to contemplate what remains of their lower regions?

[Ralzar]

The voice idea has merit in fluff, Tzeentch champions armour spouts mouths that speak in different voices. God I love Tzeentch.


Yeah, that's really cool aspect of Tzeench. The twisting of words and meanings. I was actuually working on a concept for a chosen character to RP in WAR with two voices that said slightly different things. I was trying to figure out how to convey it in chat but decided it would be too much of a hassle to keep up all the time though.

[Arijharn]

Well, still the fact remains, that despite them being mutated, under that shell, they're still male or female. Why else would they diffferentiate in the lore?

Because no one really gives the slightest crap what sex they are in the lore in all honesty. It doesn't make any difference if they are a guy or not. It's trivial. I may like the rules for a champion and like the look of the model sure, but what really gets me interested is:
A) Are they effective in what I want to be able to do?
B) Am I actually allowed to take that model in my army?

This is perfectly acceptable for something like the tabletop of course, no one has any sense of emotional attachment to their general or champions really, and certainly no emotional attachment to their grunts.

Also bear in mind that the game and lore while somewhat universal I would also say is marketted moreso directed at 14 year old boys up to around mid twenty guys, especially Chaos at that. That's not to say women and girls wont be interested in them, but come on, you're obviously intelligent, obviously you can see their marketting angle as much as anyone else.

However, this is a MMO, so while I can understand the direction Mythic took (because they were largely following the plan set by GW, otherwise you know... what's the point of making it a Warhammer MMO in the first place) I don't necessarily agree with it, which is why I said what I did and decided what I did.

[Kuari]

I actually know quite a few women who like the darker side of things... but yeah, this game in general is marketed towards males, but to me, that's really besides the point.

[Orochimaru]

None of those pictures, good as they may be capture the feeling of a Chaos Warrior. We're not all eagerly waiting for 'Generic Fantasy RPG #27', it's Warhammer that we're after.

A female chaos warrior fits about as well as a male dark elf sorcerer; not well. You just cannot capture the essence of a Warhammer style Chaos Warrior and give it a feminine edge. They are going for iconic and the iconic image of Chaos is the huge armoured killing machine. Sure there are a couple of isolated instances of female warriors of chaos, but 99.99999999% of Chaos Warriors fit the stereotype.

I can't wait till they release the Dark Elf army. Hopefully the Witch Elves will be in so we can see a new campaign start up, complete with pictures of male dark elves in chain mail Bikini's. "What, you're saying I can't be a Briiiiiiiiiide of Khaine? But I waaaaaaaaant to be!"

[Kuari]

None of those pictures, good as they may be capture the feeling of a Chaos Warrior. We're not all eagerly waiting for 'Generic Fantasy RPG #27', it's Warhammer that we're after.

A female chaos warrior fits about as well as a male dark elf sorcerer; not well. You just cannot capture the essence of a Warhammer style Chaos Warrior and give it a feminine edge. They are going for iconic and the iconic image of Chaos is the huge armoured killing machine. Sure there are a couple of isolated instances of female warriors of chaos, but 99.99999999% of Chaos Warriors fit the stereotype.

I can't wait till they release the Dark Elf army. Hopefully the Witch Elves will be in so we can see a new campaign start up, complete with pictures of male dark elves in chain mail Bikini's. "What, you're saying I can't be a Briiiiiiiiiide of Khaine? But I waaaaaaaaant to be!"

Not very comparable as female Chosen have been in lore... the lack of female Witch Elves makes sense from a lore stand point... and there is only ONE reason that the sketch doesn't catch the Chosen flavor... because the time and effort to make those details visible weren't put in. You couldn't tell me it wouldn't look near identical with only minor adjustments compared to males if the effort was actually put in to make it look more Tzeentchy... to say so shows a lack of imagination.

And I doubt your 99.9999999999% thing is accurate... the only female chosen mentioned, have been Champions... naturally that should be a sign that some of the random nameless Chosen are female, it just isn't plainly visible.

I have no proof, true, but neither do you... but give me one good reason why my thoughts on the subject isn't more logical then assuming that probably every female that becomes a Chaos Warrior becomes a Champion?

[Orochimaru]

So what you're saying is.. all elves are homophobes!? Oh my god, shocking, my dreams of a male Witch Elf shattered by the bigotry of GW!~. You're right though, it's not a great argument because well it's not something anyone could/would/should take seriously, much like this one.

However you could be right. The armies of Chaos could be teeming with female Chaos Warriors that have not become champions. So why don't you post Games Workshop artwork that features a regular old female Chaos Warriors and not a named Champion. Surely since because they are a common part of the lore and not at all freakish and rare examples there will be many iconic images of breast-enabled Chaos Warriors.

I've played WHFB for quite a while and used to field a Chaos Army, Tzeentch even and I just don't remember them popping up much at all. I think there was one who was a Champion of Slaneesh and she was something of a special case and beyond that I don't recall any.

[Kuari]

So what you're saying is.. all elves are homophobes!? Oh my god, shocking, my dreams of a male Witch Elf shattered by the bigotry of GW!~. You're right though, it's not a great argument because well it's not something anyone could/would/should take seriously, much like this one.

However you could be right. The armies of Chaos could be teeming with female Chaos Warriors that have not become champions. So why don't you post Games Workshop artwork that features a regular old female Chaos Warriors and not a named Champion. Surely since because they are a common part of the lore and not at all freakish and rare examples there will be many iconic images of breast-enabled Chaos Warriors.

I've played WHFB for quite a while and used to field a Chaos Army, Tzeentch even and I just don't remember them popping up much at all. I think there was one who was a Champion of Slaneesh and she was something of a special case and beyond that I don't recall any.

You obviously didn't read my post too well. Maybe they wore the exact same armor?... you know, that's an interesting thought...

[Orochimaru]

Well if they all wear the exact same armour, wouldn't Games Workshop have pointed that out to Mythic?

'Hey guys, Female Chosen just look exactly like male ones, just give them female faces and voices.'

But they didn't. Alas for you my friend, as it seems to matter. C'est la vie!

[Kuari]

Well if they all wear the exact same armour, wouldn't Games Workshop have pointed that out to Mythic?

'Hey guys, Female Chosen just look exactly like male ones, just give them female faces and voices.'

But they didn't. Alas for you my friend, as it seems to matter. C'est la vie!

Maybe they did?

If they flat out said no to female Chosen, chances are Mythic would have said so

[Dyeus]

Why is picture #3 highest in the poll? I thought this was about Chaos Warriors and not sexy ninja WoW-style nightelves?
If this is what people really wanted as female Chosen then I'm glad it's not happening.

I honestly don't see what the big deal is, if people actually wanted Warhammer female Chaos Warriors then there'd be no difference except sound effects (only possibly) and small text saying "female" in front of the class. Surely that's not hard to do? Bit of a copout seeing as though I've never seen a female Chaos Warrior or heard of any in the lore besides a champion, but hey they made Zealots from scratch to fill a role, why not female Chosen?

I'm still laughing at the SLM strip with the female Chosen wearing blue eyeliner and having nice flowing long hair, a slim figure and large breasts. It's an incredible piece of art but so contradictory to the points made below it.
If the main arguments for having female Chosen are "but it's Chaos! Anything can happen! You just think girls are weak!" then why are the people arguing this choosing to depict their ideal female Chosen as so much weaker and feminine than the male ones? Why do they have to walk around with huge, hulking breasts and a sexy waistline to point out they're female, won't a word in front of the class suffice?

All this bollocks is taking the fun out of Warhammer, back to looking at motivational dwarf posters.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Alright i'm just gona copy paste what I typed on a different forum .. also picture 3 is why Mythic didn't make a Female Chosen

I don't know about yall was I was personaly pissed when they made classes in the Empire ... EMPIRE female ..it's ... a group of people that conservative allowing women into their standard army .. I really don't think so! I'm also ticked about the Dwarfs having female modles ... this also goes heavily aginst the lore ... dwarfs are also very conservative and would never let a woman out on the battle field

Now this Chaos Chosen crap is comming up ... the Chosen .. following the Lore is able to be female but not in game ... i'm pretty ticked mythic basicaly turned both races upside down gender wise

However i'll still be playing the game because I can be what I want .. Dwarf hammerer http://www.war-rvr.net/forum/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif

[Vaylor]

Arguing about IP and such is fine. But when the game comes out, I could really care less about it. IP is just a good starting point to base the game off of. I want to play a video game, not roleplay characters in the warhammer world. The game itself needs its own things to be fun and playable for everyone. I think giving females a good selection of characters is one of those things that the game just needs. With the greenskins being "male" only the side of destruction is really looking at hard times when it comes to the female classes, and this will only make the problems worse. I think its a bad idea to basically say, play a dark elf if you want to be female.

[Kuari]

Why is picture #3 highest in the poll? I thought this was about Chaos Warriors and not sexy ninja WoW-style nightelves?
If this is what people really wanted as female Chosen then I'm glad it's not happening.

I honestly don't see what the big deal is, if people actually wanted Warhammer female Chaos Warriors then there'd be no difference except sound effects (only possibly) and small text saying "female" in front of the class. Surely that's not hard to do? Bit of a copout seeing as though I've never seen a female Chaos Warrior or heard of any in the lore besides a champion, but hey they made Zealots from scratch to fill a role, why not female Chosen?

I'm still laughing at the SLM strip with the female Chosen wearing blue eyeliner and having nice flowing long hair, a slim figure and large breasts. It's an incredible piece of art but so contradictory to the points made below it.
If the main arguments for having female Chosen are "but it's Chaos! Anything can happen! You just think girls are weak!" then why are the people arguing this choosing to depict their ideal female Chosen as so much weaker and feminine than the male ones? Why do they have to walk around with huge, hulking breasts and a sexy waistline to point out they're female, won't a word in front of the class suffice?

All this bollocks is taking the fun out of Warhammer, back to looking at motivational dwarf posters.

Most of the people asking for #3 I think are probably the kind of people Brighid talk about on SLM...

[Taarkor]

I chose "Yes, other" because I like every yes option except for picture #3.

[cwang733t]

Two and three dont make since to me since the type of people that would get into the armor would look like this [Careful looking at them]
http://pinkprincess.canalblog.com/im...odybuilder.gif http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/laurenpowersp1big.jpg

One is what I would expect a female chosen of chaos would look like.

As for people complaining that they cant play a female chosen, play a female KoBS. If you want to be a well armored tank and still be female, you have a great option there.

[Taarkor]

As for people complaining that they cant play a female chosen, play a female KoBS. If you want to be a well armored tank and still be female, you have a great option there.
And if they want to be a female Chaos Tank class like they are depicted in Warhammer books? Then they just have to be ignored?

Okay, so if I limited you to not play a Squig Herder then what? If you're okay with it then don't play one and see how long that goes. It would be the exact same thing.

[cwang733t]

And if they want to be a female Chaos Tank class like they are depicted in Warhammer books? Then they just have to be ignored?

Okay, so if I limited you to not play a Squig Herder then what? If you're okay with it then don't play one and see how long that goes. It would be the exact same thing.

I would play another pet class? I am dissapointed there arent squig hoppers (which was my let down), but I supported the reasoning. Unlike the books there is only one of the 4 chaos gods. Besides, saying you can play a female chosen is more like not being able to play as Grom, Krull, or even a slayer. Why arent they in the game?

[Hatemonger]

I would play another pet class? I am dissapointed there arent squig hoppers (which was my let down), but I supported the reasoning. Unlike the books there is only one of the 4 chaos gods. Besides, saying you can play a female chosen is more like not being able to play as Grom, Krull, or even a slayer. Why arent they in the game?

Well, to be fair, NO ONE can play as them. Male and female alike.

This isn't the case with Chosen.

ps. i know everyone can play a male chosen, but you get my point.

[Black Razor]

I voted for the female head voice option with a but .. I don't want them to use the same model either. I want a unique look for the armor too ..just doesn't have to be perfectly molded to the female form. Picture 2 without the boobies or the now infamous female chosen from the comic ... again ..without the boobies. Why are people so insistent that armor have boobies? Joan of Arcs armor didn't have boobies .. it vexes me.

[V'raneth]

Unlike the books there is only one of the 4 chaos gods. Besides, saying you can play a female chosen is more like not being able to play as Grom, Krull, or even a slayer. Why arent they in the game? Ugh. A totally failed analogy. There are four gods in this game. Only one is playable because the story is centered around Tzeentch and doing them all would have been untenable. You can't play Grom or Krull because they are special characters! A slayer is a whole separate class. You can only have four classes so some things have to be cut.

We're talking about a gender for a class that is already in. Including them would not boot anyone else out. There would be no effect on anything else in the game if they were created.

[V'raneth]

Why are people so insistent that armor have boobies? Joan of Arcs armor didn't have boobies .. it vexes me.I agree. No bewbs (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=810&c=7).

[Taarkor]

I would play another pet class? You completely missed the point. Wich I also guess was on purpose.

[Ranti]

No, Other


reasons:

1) female have been chosen before, BUT that is rare, and if chosen could be female at least 10% would choose it making it a somewhat common occurance, 3-4 per server at LEAST, making it a somewhat common experience

2) The imagery fits all sterotypically male apperences. Yes, females can be warriors, and yes chaos gods don't care who does there bidding as long as they do it without question, but Chosen are being describes as coming from the northern tribes who generally (rare occasion) have male driven soceity

3) females are more likely to be zealots, magus, and maruader, or at least it hinkt hey would be, as per lore

4) the lore says so, or at least GW did, and that is the lore. GW doesn't want 1000s of female chosen running around since see reason 1

5) Mythic said so, I like the decision because it has pissed so many people off, I love a company that makes a decision and sits behind it, besides make a male model + head which is rediciuals (females and males grow muscles in different spots and it would just look wrong having identical models

6) having armor with boobs is stupid and thus the only reasons to include female chosen is from a RP decision


7) this would take extra time from the real game in order to do it properly, i don't care if this seems insultings, but mythic needs to get the game out in a orderly manner and spending a lot of animators time for a couple of months to properly texture every chosen armor piece, attack, and new concept for the new females would WAIST a lot of time

8) all reasons Mark gave x100

[Hatemonger]

1) female have been chosen before, BUT that is rare, and if chosen could be female at least 10% would choose it making it a somewhat common occurance, 3-4 per server at LEAST, making it a somewhat common experience

WOW. This applies to so many things in the game right now, that it's not even worth mentioning.

2) The imagery fits all sterotypically male apperences. Yes, females can be warriors, and yes chaos gods don't care who does there bidding as long as they do it without question, but Chosen are being describes as coming from the northern tribes who generally (rare occasion) have male driven soceity

Which is largely irrelevant in consideration of the fact that Chaos Warriors can be female, which obviously means that they are capable of demanding respect in their male-dominated society.

3) females are more likely to be zealots, magus, and maruader, or at least it hinkt hey would be, as per lore

Zealots don't even exist in the lore, and I'd dare you to find me more instances of female Marauders than female warriors. Don't worry, I'll wait.

4) the lore says so, or at least GW did, and that is the lore. GW doesn't want 1000s of female chosen running around since see reason 1

Lore doesn't say it, and you have no idea what GW "want" to see in game.

5) Mythic said so, I like the decision because it has pissed so many people off, I love a company that makes a decision and sits behind it, besides make a male model + head which is rediciuals (females and males grow muscles in different spots and it would just look wrong having identical models

You love the decision because it "pissed people off". Wow. You are a real asset to this community, friend. To be honest, I like a company that sticks to its plans as well, but I'm far too mature to go gloating this fact over the people that are disappointed. Ah well, that's just me. Everything else in this "point" is an opinion, so...yeah, fair enough.

6) having armor with boobs is stupid and thus the only reasons to include female chosen is from a RP decision


Look at the armor for female WP and Magus. They have curves which naturally fit their chests. There has existed female armor that had "breast-curves" just as there has been women dressed in regular "mens" armor. There's nothing "stupid" about it, and if you believe so, then I hope you are just as pissed off about the current female models.

7) this would take extra time from the real game in order to do it properly, i don't care if this seems insultings, but mythic needs to get the game out in a orderly manner and spending a lot of animators time for a couple of months to properly texture every chosen armor piece, attack, and new concept for the new females would WAIST a lot of time

Mythic is a professional company. If they had time to design female/male models for every other class in the game, then they have time to do another. They aren't incompetent, they aren't noobs, and they haven't wasted away their time playing jump rope. It's ridiculous to assume that one more model would be the one thing that caused them to delay the game, and your lack of faith is frankly completely unwarranted.


8) all reasons Mark gave x100

Yes his reasons were good. I'm not against the reasoning behind the decision. I'm just against horrible arguments, which is what you provided. "Can't make them look right" is perfectly acceptable.

[Arijharn]

Lore doesn't say it, and you have no idea what GW "want" to see in game.


Actually, judging from the fact that there isn't any female Chosen in the game currently, then it seems to be a fair judgement to say that GW didn't want to see them in game, at least, they preferred not see them then give Mythic the creative freedom to implement their designs.

[Hatemonger]

Hmm, no.

It's safe to assume that Mythic did not think they could make a convincing female "Chaos" model, asked GW if it would be okay to not include it, and got the okay. GW aren't MMO designers, and don't know what will work and won't work. I mean, Mythic already said that they had tried to make them look decent and couldn't, so obviously GW wasn't offended by the idea at first.

[Arijharn]

Hmm, no.

It's safe to assume that Mythic did not think they could make a convincing female "Chaos" model, asked GW if it would be okay to not include it, and got the okay. GW aren't MMO designers, and don't know what will work and won't work. I mean, Mythic already said that they had tried to make them look decent and couldn't, so obviously GW wasn't offended by the idea at first.

For all we know GW saw the female designs and said: "no, that doesn't really work". It really could of gone either way.

[Ranti]

WOW. This applies to so many things in the game right now, that it's not even worth mentioning.

You are right, i am using a consequential arguement, no point stands entirely on its own, but i know that may be a little to complex for you

Which is largely irrelevant in consideration of the fact that Chaos Warriors can be female, which obviously means that they are capable of demanding respect in their male-dominated society.

See above


Zealots don't even exist in the lore, and I'd dare you to find me more instances of female Marauders than female warriors. Don't worry, I'll wait.
Actually, i believe it is a take on the idea of a cultist, and draws its imagery from cultist in the resources that Warhammer lore draws itself from, and cultist is a common theme in the RP books, so they really do exist
fa·nat·ic / Pronunciation Key [fuh-nat-ik] Pronunciation Key –noun
1.a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal, as in religion or politics Zealot, by definition, is also a fanatic

This to me reads as Cultist


Lore doesn't say it, and you have no idea what GW "want" to see in game.
Watch the Q&A podcast, he gives a lore-centered arguement to the question, leading me to strongly think that yes GW did want it this way


Look at the armor for female WP and Magus. They have curves which naturally fit their chests. There has existed female armor that had "breast-curves" just as there has been women dressed in regular "mens" armor. There's nothing "stupid" about it, and if you believe so, then I hope you are just as pissed off about the current female models.
read the class description of both of those class, magus are armored not in plate male but rather in ornate (thin) and easily maluable gold/flexible metals, it isn't armor in any sense similiar to a chosen, it is a decoration. Same for the WP, the pieces of armor, by the description, are light - medium mail pieces and the WP is mostly clothed in a thick robe, it is infinitly more easier to manufacture a single piece with curves than it is to make a piece of plate armor, i could go into metalurgy but that would go over your head really really quickly

Mythic is a professional company. If they had time to design female/male models for every other class in the game, then they have time to do another. They aren't incompetent, they aren't noobs, and they haven't wasted away their time playing jump rope. It's ridiculous to assume that one more model would be the one thing that caused them to delay the game, and your lack of faith is frankly completely unwarranted.
Every little extra piece of design requires more time, with this already stretching lore and really any common sense, it doesn't warrant that extra time, the other cases it DOES matter because it would give a different artistic touch to the character, in the chosen this wouldn't be the case because of lore, it would be a different head on a character that should always wear a helm. Do a simple cost benifit analyze on the situation, benfit is to shut up some forum whinners and give RPs a small bit of flexibilty, since they can still claim it is a female underneath the armor, the cost is anamator time...and that is money.



Yes his reasons were good. I'm not against the reasoning behind the decision. I'm just against horrible arguments, which is what you provided. "Can't make them look right" is perfectly acceptable.
You love the decision because it "pissed people off". Wow. You are a real asset to this community, friend. To be honest, I like a company that sticks to its plans as well, but I'm far too mature to go gloating this fact over the people that are disappointed. Ah well, that's just me. Everything else in this "point" is an opinion, so...yeah, fair enough.
As are you, friend, a real asset to the community.

and you misinterpreted what i said, friend. I suppose i did word it poorly. I meant that they are sticking behind a decision that so many people are up in arms about, that is what makes me happy, not really the people getting angry. Although nerd rage is humuors I must admit. Yours made me very happy actually.

furthermore, people have presented counter arguements to the

"Can't make them look right" is perfectly acceptable.arguement, i am simply addressing them

Also, a side note, This is a arguement about a fiction universe, all points are opinion, since no fact can be presented except for quotes, RL analogies, and definitions of nomenclature, all of which are used to support a logical, all be it a opinion, conclusion

[Hatemonger]

Wow, that is certainly a mess of quotes. I'll try to muster some response in this sleep-induced daze of mine before drifting off, though. ;)

You are right, i am using a consequential arguement, no point stands entirely on its own, but i know that may be a little to complex for youYeah, have no idea what you're talking about here, but I suppose that was the point of the condescension. The fact is that your argument applies to several things in the game already, and therefore is no argument against adding something else along the same vein.

Actually, i believe it is a take on the idea of a cultist, and draws its imagery from cultist in the resources that Warhammer lore draws itself from, and cultist is a common theme in the RP books, so they really do existNot familiar with them so I wouldn't know. Doesn't change the fact that the Zealot has features largely originated from Mythic and not GW.

Watch the Q&A podcast, he gives a lore-centered arguement to the question, leading me to strongly think that yes GW did want it this way"Where the IP demands we are doing gender-specific careers. A perfect example of this is the Chaos Warriors. The Chaos Warriors are Huge, Burly Northmen in very very thick armor. Therefore they are huge, burly Northmen and not huge, burly Northwomen"

This "lore-centered argument" clearly seems to based on visual appeal.

read the class description of both of those class, magus are armored not in plate male but rather in ornate (thin) and easily maluable gold/flexible metals, it isn't armor in any sense similiar to a chosen, it is a decoration. Same for the WP, the pieces of armor, by the description, are light - medium mail pieces and the WP is mostly clothed in a thick robe, it is infinitly more easier to manufacture a single piece with curves than it is to make a piece of plate armor, i could go into metalurgy but that would go over your head really really quicklyHow is any of this relevant? I don't care what the fictional armor's purpose is. You complained about breast being evident in the 'female Chosen', and I simply showed you that it was present in all of the female armor shown so far. Of course their armor is "light", they aren't tanks! You could go "deep into metalurgy" all you want, but it would be a pointless divergence. But if you want to be so particular, I just looked at the female Knights and their chest is just as evident. So are pictures of female Dwarfs IRONBREAKERS like: http://warhammer.tentonhammer.com/files/gallery/albums/album25/nov06fd_04.sized.jpg. Please don't tell me these are "medium mail pieces" or made for "decoration".

Every little extra piece of design requires more time, with this already stretching lore and really any common sense, it doesn't warrant that extra time, the other cases it DOES matter because it would give a different artistic touch to the character, in the chosen this wouldn't be the case because of lore, it would be a different head on a character that should always wear a helm. Do a simple cost benifit analyze on the situation, benfit is to shut up some forum whinners and give RPs a small bit of flexibilty, since they can still claim it is a female underneath the armor, the cost is anamator time...and that is money.They've had absolutely no problem "stretching lore" in order to fit into gamer's needs so far, and this isn't nearly as much of a stretch as many of the changes they've already made and are probably planning on making. It is YOUR OPINION that this issue is simply "common sense" and that us lowly plebeians simply can't comprehend your amazing arguments. It is simply YOUR OPINION that the extra time is unwarranted. I disagree. I hope you can respect that. The cost is "shutting up forum whiners"? Wow, why don't we all just shut up and stop expressing our opinions. I'm sure Mythic would appreciate that. Why are you even here if you have no respect for this community or its members? Bah. It is only a "waste of animator" time if you don't want female Chosen in the first place. If they suddenly come under the idea that it wasn't, then it wouldn't be. Obviously.

As are you, friend, a real asset to the community.Well, if by "real asset to the community" you mean I see the value in constructive debates and don't go about insulting the members in every post, then sure. I guess I am. :rolleyes:

and you misinterpreted what i said, friend. I suppose i did word it poorly. I meant that they are sticking behind a decision that so many people are up in arms about, that is what makes me happy, not really the people getting angry. Although nerd rage is humuors I must admit. Yours made me very happy actually.Well, yeah, no one appreciates a company that bows down to whiners, i.e. Blizzard. But we also don't appreciate being ignored, i.e. Blizzard. Don't get me wrong though, I like Blizzard though. :p

And no, I'm not angry at all. I can only assume you think anyone who doesn't agree with you is somehow angry, but that's a personal problem, and not something I can possibly comment legitimately on. In the end, I'm male, I'm going to have a Chosen alt, and this whole debate won't affect me in any way.

furthermore, people have presented counter arguements to the Sorry, couldn't understand the mess of quotes this was near, so I have no idea what you're referring to.

Also, a side note, This is a arguement about a fiction universe, all points are opinion, since no fact can be presented except for quotes, RL analogies, and definitions of nomenclature, all of which are used to support a logical, all be it a opinion, conclusionNo.

It's based on facts pertaining to a fictional universe. Dwarfs exist in Warhammer's IP, this is a fact, despite being an utterly fictitious entity.

Now, while you coyly insulting me and making ridiculously poorly-thought out reasoning, has been fun...I shall retreat to bed now. I suppose we can continue this tomorrow, if it isn't closed. Or perhaps you'll simply stop responding, as this is clearly as issue of "common sense" with you. Either way is cool with me. Seeya.

[Selandri]

Hatemonger wins this thread. Dwarf women with booby armour. -Runs off to spike out eyes-

That said, she is... kinda cute >.>

[rucdoc]

actual the way I have seen most of the IP behind the Chosen is that they have transcended beyond being human are now just massive armor and chaos power. they have become similar to orcs, they have no gender.

[Kuari]

actual the way I have seen most of the IP behind the Chosen is that they have transcended beyond being human are now just massive armor and chaos power. they have become similar to orcs, they have no gender.
They still do, they just don't have any ability to make use of that gender beyond voice. And they were once human, and technically still are, just mutated beyond recognition

[LookinGreen]

I found this interesting and thouhg I'd post it for everyone before I go to bed.

8 things we never want to hear again (http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org/?p=13) coming from the former (atleast I think former) Mythic Director of Community, Sanya

Basically I found point 6 and 8 pertain alot to this argument

6. Player: It’s a slap in the face. This is invariably from someone who has not been slapped in the face enough. Developers just sit around all day looking for ways to slap your face. Totally. Look, I KNOW how passionate we all get. I’ve had a beloved character banned, remember, it felt like losing an arm. I know what it’s like to fight for something regarding a patch note that I really believed in and to lose. But for crying out loud, if you’re taking something so personally, something that was decided upon with no malice, no disrespect, and no emotion? Something decided upon by someone who sweats blood for the game as his career, not his hobby? You need an actual slap in the face to snap you the hell out of the hysteria.
.
.
.
8. Player: Too little, too late. Yeah? If that’s true… why are you still here, posting? Because, dude. That’s kind of pathetic. Meanwhile, the developers aren’t going to give up, because as long as there is life and active subscribers, there is hope.

[Kuari]

I found this interesting and thouhg I'd post it for everyone before I go to bed.

8 things we never want to hear again (http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org/?p=13) coming from the former (atleast I think former) Mythic Director of Community, Sanya

Basically I found point 6 and 8 pertain alot to this argument

8 I agree with fully...

6 however... an inadvertant slap to the face is still a slap to the face.

[Orochimaru]

I found this interesting and thouhg I'd post it for everyone before I go to bed.

8 things we never want to hear again (http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org/?p=13) coming from the former (atleast I think former) Mythic Director of Community, Sanya

Basically I found point 6 and 8 pertain alot to this argument

LoL yeah nice find, 6 and 8 are rather solid calls.

[gandk]

I think Sanyas latest blog entry on the diversity of gamers, and gender/race stereotyping is far more relevant to this discussion, but whatever. I really wish she was still with mythic.. I'd love to hear her 'spin' (meant in a good way) on this, though I doubt even her impressive CM skills would be able to defend the decision.

I chose "Yes, other" because any of the "yes" versions would be okay with me. Some would be better than others, but if mythic is so horribly pressed for time/talent :rolleyes:, I'm willing to accept anything over nothing.


In closing, I think it's a terrible decision by mythic, and despite reading through the two other (now closed - thread saboteurs ftw!) mammoth threads on the subject, I still havent read a single reasonable argument against making chosen females, in one form or the other.


/PS: well played hatemonger, I almost feel sorry for Ranti though

[Kuari]

In closing, I think it's a terrible decision by mythic, and despite reading through the two other (now closed - thread saboteurs ftw!) mammoth threads on the subject, I still havent read a single reasonable argument against making chosen females, in one form or the other.

You are kind of right...

Reasons Against and Counters
Reason Against: Not very many female Chosen in lore
Counter: The ones that are are the leaders. You don't just become born a leader in Chaos society, you work your way up. Obviously some of the underlings must be female.
But: Then why do all the minitures look male?
Counter: Maybe female Chosen just wear the same armor.

Reason Against: It's Mythic and GW's game. Whatever they do, I'm fine with.
Counter: What, do you think Mythic pays attention to us so we can be sheep? They want feedback, make an opinion for yourself.

Reason Against: I don't want them to be cutesy
Counter: Most people probably don't. Those that do need to be slapped.

Reason Against: But how will you tell if they're female if they don't make many changes to the current model? Why does it matter even?
Counter: Voices make a difference, plus they won't have to deal with the RP assumption that all Chosen are male.

Reason Against: But they can't be iconic and feminine at the same time
Counter: Quit imagining them as beautiful when you should be thinking more masculine type females.

Reason Against: During those days women didn't fight (or) Chaos are based off Norse society.
Counter: Look over Warhammer lore... there are fighting women there... also it may be BASED off of something from real life, but that doesn't mean everything is the same. Also Valkyries... legend had to come from somewhere..

I miss anything?

[gandk]

Kuari

Heh, I was actually considering making a list sorta like that. I also said reasonable arguments.. I dont think the "You can just play male and pretend you're female" counts as a reasonable argument. Neither is "because mythic said so", nor "I just dont want mythic to spend time on it, since I'm male and I already got what I want".. They're not reasonable arguments, they're just lame opinions/statements.

Imho, the closest thing we have to a 'real' argument, is that it's not possible to create an iconic looking female chosen. However, that assumes one of two things. Either mythic artists are too talentless to make a cool, iconic female chosen (which I refuse to believe, considering the vast amout of cool stuff they have produced so far), or that they somehow want it to be overtly feminine looking just because it's a female version (which, I think brighid addressed/shot down perfectly in the SLM-comic commentary).

Now for a huge sidetrack about "during those days women didnt fight", sorry!

As far as the "realism" argument goes, that's tied up on scandinavian viking tribes, it is quite silly.. You cant compare real societies to the ones presented in the lore. However, for people who insist on it, they need to know that the viking societies (which really just is scandinavias 'early middle ages') were alot less misogynistic than people generally think. There are lots of 'viking' warrior women in recorded history and viking women in general had alot of social freedom and rights (such as right to own land, right to speak at the meets where kings were 'elected' and so forth) It's actually one of the least gender-repressive societies of it's time. Alot of viking women were trained to defend their homes and such. But more importantly for this discussion, there are numerous accounts of female 'norse' warriors raiding across europe. There are accounts of female captains, leading raiding war-parties consisting of both male, female and mixed crews. It's guesstimated that around 1-5% of the viking raiders were female. Which isnt alot, but considering one of the bigger viking fleets alone, have been estimated at around 40.000 men (hah!), that's still alot of women fighting.

Well, that's it for the history lesson, got a bit long-winded there. I just really hate when people yammer on about how brutally the norse treated women, when they obviously have no clue what they're talking about.

Regardless, as I said.. It's so silly comparing the real world to the lore of a game. And in the lore of the game, chosen females exist. That's not debatable regardless of how anyone thinks the barbarian norse tribes treated the women.

[Scerce]

Geeze, I read through these posts over and over and it's all people giving the same *ridiculous* reasons why female Chosen should not be.

1. It's been pointed out already: They (or something nearly identical) already exist in canon.

2. Why does everyone say it would be hard to retain an iconic look while feminizing the form? Why is this an argument? Of COURSE it would be hard to retain an iconic look while feminizing the form, and that is why it *needn't be feminized*. At least not to the extent you single-minded sorts seem to think. Chosen are Akira-like gobs of muscle and viscera stuck inside an impenetrable suit of armor. News flash: There are no men on earth as buff as the Chosen either, and our damn bone structure wouldn't allow it anyway.

Forget WoW, where men are all gorillas and women are all dainty butterflies. Here, humans look like *humans*, and Chaos-worshipping uber-mutants look like *Chaos-worshipping uber-mutants*, not freaking dainty butterflies. There is zero reason for female Chosen to be sexy, or even slightly attractive in any way. They don't care about reproducing to carry on the species. They care about ripping their enemies to pieces and offering their bones as sacrifices to forces of absolute evil in order to eventually become a demon.

---

In my opinion, they could just stick a new set of heads on the current Chosen bodies, give them a new voice, and be done with it.

[LookinGreen]

In my opinion, they could just stick a new set of heads on the current Chosen bodies, give them a new voice, and be done with it.

That would look terrible at lower tiers.

[Kuari]

That would look terrible at lower tiers.

Realistically, I'm pretty sure they won't care about looks... seriously, screw the "eye candy". Do what's necessary

[LookinGreen]

They took an effort to redo 2 classes graphically and their starting areas I don't think Mythic wants to push out something that is ugly. While graphics doesn't really matter to some, it matters with to almost. On a side note I think that gender is nothing more than eye candy. I don't care if they put in female chosen or not, but if they do, they shouldn't rush out a crappy version just to appease the people crying out for a female chosen.

[Charnel]

Like I said in a post somewhere else, what would the reaction be like, if a female only class was released before chaos was released?

[Athenys]

Alright so one is cartoony:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/zintiel_color.jpg

While this one isn't:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/femchaos.jpg

Yet another one:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/lance22.jpg

Even though the blonde woman has obvious breasts these are kept unobtrusive. You can't even see any on the more sinister looking figure, but the legs and stance also indicate her gender. IMO the second pic I posted is closest in ornamentation, with that daemonic face on the torso and all.

[illukar]

Like I said in a post somewhere else, what would the reaction be like, if a female only class was released before chaos was released?

It would depend on the class. If, for instance, Chosen had been released as a female-only class, there would be a mighty disturbance in the Force, as if a thousand voices had been raised as one...

And when all those upset people said: "There's no reason in the lore for Chosen to be female-only! Make it so there can be male Chosen!" Well, I at least would say: "Yeah, I think you should make it so guys can play Chosen too."

[Orochimaru]

Alright so one is cartoony:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/zintiel_color.jpg

While this one isn't:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/femchaos.jpg

Yet another one:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/lance22.jpg

Even though the blonde woman has obvious breasts these are kept unobtrusive. You can't even see any on the more sinister looking figure, but the legs and stance also indicate her gender. IMO the second pic I posted is closest in ornamentation, with that daemonic face on the torso and all.

None of them look like Chaos Champions. I'm sorry, lots of the art that has been posted is cool and nicely done but it's not art that fits into the iconic Chaos Warrior theme. I don't ever recall seeing any. The SLM image is great, I really like it but Chaos Warriors dont have hour-glass figures and big boobs. This (http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/hordesofchaos/artwork/images/art05.jpg) and This (http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/hordesofchaos/artwork/images/art04.jpg) however, are good examples of what they do look like.

This is pretty much the only offical artwork I can think of: Here (http://uk.games-workshop.com/hordesofchaos/special-characters/6/) and she's somewhat unique amongst the Chaos minatures, but lets be honest. She is just a badly sculpted rip off of a Marilith. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/alumni_marilith_FC1.jpg). I don't really care either way, I had always assumed there would be female Chosen, there are female Warrior Priests, Male Sorcerers (booo) etc so they really should have put the effort into making a female Chosen.

But apparently they have some kind of artistic integrity and if they couldn't come up with something they felt matched the standards and iconic imagery of a Chaos Warrior, well thats just the way it is. What I don't understand is why that rather simple idea is so hard to understand. The level of hyperbole flying over this decision is vastly amusing.

[gandk]

this http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/hordesofchaos/artwork/images/art05.jpg chosen is so awesome, really want my chosen to look like that.

However, I could easily imagine the same picture, with the helmet removed and a female head with long raven-black hair and a sadistic stare... Nothing would have to be changed imo, it would still be just as awesome, perhaps even moreso because of the surprise factor :)

[V'raneth]

Like I said in a post somewhere else, what would the reaction be like, if a female only class was released before chaos was released? If it were Witch Elves I'd be ecstatically happy. Anything else, and I suspect I'd be annoyed as well. I believe most people would feel the same.

[Taarkor]

While this one isn't:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/femchaos.jpgThat looks awesome and I wish they would put that into the game, though some bigger pauldrons might be good.

Like I said in a post somewhere else, what would the reaction be like, if a female only class was released before chaos was released?I'd love female only Witch Elf class. I'd also find it alright with male only Warrior Priests.

[Selandri]

Females in the Cult of Sigmar is lore appropriate, up to and including the Arch Lector ( ie, the big hat at the top. )

In all honesty I think if a female only class was released pre-Chosen we'd have the same arguments with people switching sides. A lot of the folks who come in say 'Well I'm a bloke and I can be a blokey Chosen so I'm cool with that'.

[Kuari]

Females in the Cult of Sigmar is lore appropriate, up to and including the Arch Lector ( ie, the big hat at the top. )

In all honesty I think if a female only class was released pre-Chosen we'd have the same arguments with people switching sides. A lot of the folks who come in say 'Well I'm a bloke and I can be a blokey Chosen so I'm cool with that'.

Not really as lore supports female only Sorcerers and Witch Elves...
Doesn't support male only Chosen
And Greenskins are close enough to male... people will be refering to them as hims rather then its

[Selandri]

Ah, but how many people argue from the lore point? A lot of it is 'Well I'm a bloke, I think I should get to play a gigantically muscled bloke in game, a Chosen is that, I am happy' rather than 'Well this is what the IP says'.

In all honesty the IP has been done to death. Only people who can't read come in and say 'Well there are no female Chosen in the IP' now, we've debunked that point numerous times.

People would still complain if 'their' class was gender restricted since they feel they have the right to play what they want to play. It just doesn't matter as much this way around due to the less vocal female gamer crowd. If they made a female only class first I can assure you numerous men would be up in arms about not being able to play 'their' class.

Edit: Please note, less vocal not less important. I support gender equality in MMOs! And I said in all honesty twice in a row ( Post-wise ) so I have to go slap myself now.

[Kuari]

ehh, semi-true... Greenskin complaints don't really pop up a whole lot...

but yeah, honestly... for an accurate opinion on anything, you need to put yourself in the shoes of each possible extreme viewpoint and the reasons for it... or at least that's my take. I really honestly wouldn't care less about female Chosen if I only thought about myself, but I'm the type that avoids that kind of thinking...

Me? I'm male, and I'll be going a male character... Witchhunter or Chosen... maybe a Dark Elf...

But yeah, looking from every viewpoint, I think those who support having female Chosen have the strongest arguements by far.

[Selandri]

Greenskin arguments do not pop up often because nobody wants to think of an orc naked.

How else could you tell its gender!? ;)

[Kuari]

Greenskin arguments do not pop up often because nobody wants to think of an orc naked.

How else could you tell its gender!? ;)

Yeah, well, do you really want to see a large muscle woman naked ala Chosen?

[Selandri]

In a word? Hell yeah. Okay, two words.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Here's something for ya, I found this on War-rvr seems someone had fun with their photoshop

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e305/gallt/ChosenImg_041.jpg

I think that still shows the Chosen pretty nicely, while still making it feminin

[Kuari]

Here's something for ya, I found this on War-rvr seems someone had fun with their photoshop

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e305/gallt/ChosenImg_041.jpg

I think that still shows the Chosen pretty nicely, while still making it feminin

Holy dear god..... IT'S PERFECT!!!!

[Ranti]

/PS: well played hatemonger, I almost feel sorry for Ranti though


You should feel sorry for me, work has been a real pain lately, and i feel asleep after he posted and havn't been back on the forums until now, I will reply to all his points in a sec, and look over the rest of the thread. I assume you are saying he was a good troll, considering In other posts he has said he doesn't care at all about this issue, and isn't even going to play a chosen, even as a alt

[Destcaz]

Quick question. Do you that support female Chosen support Orc Shaman? I mean, its pretty much the same situation. Was an official reason ever given for why they decided to ditch Orc Shaman anyway?

[Thoden Firehammer]

They didn't really give a reason but if they did I believe it would have been like this

It was an IP issue, Shamen are a bit more of the brains department which fits Golbin better

[Destcaz]

Not sure how it could be an IP issue. Orc shaman are clearly shown in the lore. http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/orcs/catalog/orc_shamans.htm

[Thoden Firehammer]

Yes but it's far easier seeing goblin Shamans, and yes if you check the GW site you'll see them too

Also they have to give the little Gobos something to play besides just squig herder

[Selandri]

I think the orc shaman was simply a 'We have four classes and a race including two sections, lets split it in half' and they felt that a melee centric DPS option and tank were more 'orcy', which left ranged and magic to goblins.

Orc and goblin shamans are both VERY lore appropriate, each having their own Waagh magic table. It's not a 'Gobbos are brainier' thing :P

[Thoden Firehammer]

Well I always thought of it like what they did with the Male only Chosen ... Chosen in their eyes big hulking Northmen

Shaman .. I just get the picture of a Goblin why I don't know

[Ranti]

Wow, that is certainly a mess of quotes. I'll try to muster some response in this sleep-induced daze of mine before drifting off, though. ;)
I fixed them, as you where posting I assumed, i forgot a single ] and omg it went crazy, and trust me i was about much more tired than you where, i feel asleep in the chair, moments after i hit enter, but that is only excuse for two things, the quotes, and a poor word choice below


Yeah, have no idea what you're talking about here, but I suppose that was the point of the condescension. The fact is that your argument applies to several things in the game already, and therefore is no argument against adding something else along the same vein.

You probably don't understand what i am talking about because i used the wrong word, if anything i meant sequential arguement, but that means something all together, What i was trying to get across, is my arguement is the sum of the points, each point hurts the arguement for the female chosen, and the sum is the conclusion that there shouldn't be female chosen. That is why i can use something that goes against things in the game, if i use several of these it works to make my point. You seem to like to nit-pic every part of a post and say that each point isn't enough to make the conclusion, it isn't actually, but if you put points 1-6 together, then yes they are. A simple example, in Anarobic fermentation you want to see if the concentration of CO2 increased in the process, both the liquid, and the air above it. One way to monitor this is by looking at the pH because CO2 Reacts with water to produce a Acid which will lower the ph. But this isn't alone, there are other acids present and these could of caused a decrease in ph, but if you also show how there is an increase at the top of the fluid samples, which would be formed as CO2 escapes from the fluid into the air. This would give two points showing an increase in CO2, but each of those points alone would not be enough to show this. You need more than one point to make the arguement, and this is the type of logic i am using here. although some points are more damning than others.

Not familiar with them so I wouldn't know. Doesn't change the fact that the Zealot has features largely originated from Mythic and not GW.

GW allowed it, so it has a origin somewhere in the lore

hehe, here is a entire scenario that mentions cultist http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/hordesofchaos/gettingstarted/start_play.htm

I am sure, this idea, along with some references of the crazy voodoo cultist with knife and a human skull in hand from the real world, combined with Tzeetch imagery formed the zealot, as can be seen the cultist would be more "frail' than the average chaos warrior, so they wouldn't be a tank. But adding gifts similiar to the maruder, would lead to the birth of the class.

And to be frank, the zealot, in imagery and lore IS all of GW creation, otherwise htey wouldn't allow it. The gameplay and implementation of the new lore created by GW is mythics doing. Or else mythic has lied to us about their relationship with GW

Where the IP demands we are doing gender-specific careers. A perfect example of this is the Chaos Warriors. The Chaos Warriors are Huge, Burly Northmen in very very thick armor. Therefore they are huge, burly Northmen and not huge, burly Northwomen"
This "lore-centered argument" clearly seems to based on visual appeal.

How is any of this relevant? I don't care what the fictional armor's purpose is. You complained about breast being evident in the 'female Chosen', and I simply showed you that it was present in all of the female armor shown so far. Of course their armor is "light", they aren't tanks! You could go "deep into metalurgy" all you want, but it would be a pointless divergence. But if you want to be so particular, I just looked at the female Knights and their chest is just as evident. So are pictures of female Dwarfs IRONBREAKERS like: http://warhammer.tentonhammer.com/files/gallery/albums/album25/nov06fd_04.sized.jpg. Please don't tell me these are "medium mail pieces" or made for "decoration".


Mythic and GW have to choose the visual appeal they want, and it is obvious to me that they choose that the female chosen isn't fitting with this visual appeal. I.E It doesn't fit the lore for players to whimsically create female chosen to there hearts content, since they are so few, even much less than limited Chosen pool to begin with (really the only class so far thats population should be excessivly small and having playable questions lore.)

How is this relevent? I dunno you brought up breast on models, and i was simple showing that all though it works for WP and Magus in lore, it doesn't work for Chosen.

Look at the armor for female WP and Magus. They have curves which naturally fit their chests. There has existed female armor that had "breast-curves" just as there has been women dressed in regular "mens" armor. There's nothing "stupid" about it, and if you believe so, then I hope you are just as pissed off about the current female models.
For WP and Magus it isn't stupid, because magus are in ornate gold, which is easy to mold into breast, and WP are in a combination of cloth and metal, making ornate pieces to show breast, although impractical, still plausiable.

Now if you mention models of female illustration, well let me show you by illustration my point.

If you look you see that most of these piece have a crease around them
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/nov06fd_08.jpg
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/nov06fd_07.jpg
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/nov06fd_04.jpg
http://warhammer.tentonhammer.com/files/gallery/albums/album25/nov06fd_04.sized.jpg
(You posted a pic of a hammerer not a ironbreaker, btw, which is a melee dps....so this could also be argued as being a lighter piece of armor making it more flexible)

that crease is the tell-tell sign of two pieces of armor being fastened together, which could mean that the real armor is made underneath, and that those are decoration, which is perfectly fine. but chaos don't really decorate with breast plates

and in these pics the girls don't even seem to have cleavage, which is the annoying aspect from a realistic perspective
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/nov06fd_03.jpg
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/nov06fd_05.jpg
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/nov06fd_05.jpg

Now with Kotbs, i am at a lost, you have won, they have rediculus form fitting armor, but i am not angry, i have gotten use to seeing rediculus armor for females in mmos, with cloth and leather, it can fit any form, metal just doens't work the way WoW devs, and the guys who did Kotbs think.

For instance looking a kevlar vest (invinitely more flexible than plate armor)
http://safechoicesecurity.com/library/Ladiesnewgenerationpluslevel111Avest.jpg
you don't see clevage, or anything, it is just a slight buldge in the top of the armor, which even males with large biceps would have
furthermore looking at fictional dipiction of a real woman, she wore normal flate breastplates
http://library.shu.edu/gallery/arc-Joan_of_Arc_Engraving.jpg
that is what a female in plate should look like not
http://www.wowwiki.com/images/e/e1/EnchantedThoriumArmor.jpg
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7900/carapace5ak.jpg
http://www.thottbot.com/i10845


They've had absolutely no problem "stretching lore" in order to fit into gamer's needs so far, and this isn't nearly as much of a stretch as many of the changes they've already made and are probably planning on making. It is YOUR OPINION that this issue is simply "common sense" and that us lowly plebeians simply can't comprehend your amazing arguments. It is simply YOUR OPINION that the extra time is unwarranted. I disagree. I hope you can respect that. The cost is "shutting up forum whiners"? Wow, why don't we all just shut up and stop expressing our opinions. I'm sure Mythic would appreciate that. Why are you even here if you have no respect for this community or its members? Bah. It is only a "waste of animator" time if you don't want female Chosen in the first place. If they suddenly come under the idea that it wasn't, then it wouldn't be. Obviously.

it seems to me this decision was made a long time ago, like most decision, although you don't seem to think so but making the game work takes a lot of time, and decisions have to go through GW, then put on a 3d skeleton, then all movements and attacks animated, then all new pieces of gear need to be made, at least 42. All of which need to go through GW and check for clipping, this is no simple thing, as you seem to think, but that is your opinion and you are entitled with it

And WOW, way to use horrible logic on a statement. i am very sure that this isn't a game breaking thing to almost all the majority. Maybe 4 fan-girls won't play. Really the normal female players will just grab a female class. Only a very select few will not choose, if any. and you extrapolated what i said, i by no means am against pointing something out, but this topic is being butched, and i suppose i am not helping, really marks reasons are very very good for me, they couldn't get it to look right, i can see why, as i have shown in other parts of posts. The reason people want them is because they think it is sexist, and a minority because they think it limits player flexibility. The reason people don't want them is because the will either be crap, or be a female head on a male model, which is even worse crap. i personally prefer the lack of crap over the politcal correctness and player flexibilty which would be minimal.

Well, if by "real asset to the community" you mean I see the value in constructive debates and don't go about insulting the members in every post, then sure. I guess I am.
......sooooo...hmm...lol
You have insulted my intellegence several times, heck that is your very purpose for being here! but whatever, you where the one who threw out the "real assest" comment which is just your holier-than-thou insult.


Well, yeah, no one appreciates a company that bows down to whiners, i.e. Blizzard. But we also don't appreciate being ignored, i.e. Blizzard. Don't get me wrong though, I like Blizzard though. :p

are you sure?


And no, I'm not angry at all. I can only assume you think anyone who doesn't agree with you is somehow angry, but that's a personal problem, and not something I can possibly comment legitimately on. In the end, I'm male, I'm going to have a Chosen alt, and this whole debate won't affect me in any way.

well, i am not angry either, actually. but, well you obviously are, with your infinite amount of snid and cynical comments and insults. You where the first to throw insults, which would show some degree of being mad.
But how does your sex effect what you are going to play? I am a male, and i am going to have a female magus alt? or possible a witch elf if they are in..although main will be a Shaman, and I will probably have a male maruader alt...just can't deny thats awesomness. You seem to think all females have female toons.....well...I know a lot of females with male toons, and even more males with female toons....way to many of those.

Sorry, couldn't understand the mess of quotes this was near, so I have no idea what you're referring to.



No.

It's based on facts pertaining to a fictional universe. Dwarfs exist in Warhammer's IP, this is a fact, despite being an utterly fictitious entity.


Reading comprehension ftl (quoting you from another post actually)

If you see what i said, I mentioned quotes specifically being a entity of fact in this conversation, by saying dwarf exist in Warhammmer IP, you are quoting GW material that talks about dwarfs

But saying chosen should or shouldn't be female is indeed all opinion, as is most of the points here, for all i know Warhammer blacksmiths can make metal bend into the form of female brests with full cleavage, allthough from a realistic perspective it is totally rediculus.

Now, while you coyly insulting me and making ridiculously poorly-thought out reasoning, has been fun...I shall retreat to bed now. I suppose we can continue this tomorrow, if it isn't closed. Or perhaps you'll simply stop responding, as this is clearly as issue of "common sense" with you. Either way is cool with me. Seeya.

Maybe it will be more like two days, i am not the type to sit and stair at the forums every day to see if someone replies to me so i can instantly reply, even 5 mins - the time it took for me to fix my quotes was to slow for you.

and yeah, i really think that all the female chosen art that has been produced by fans looks rather crappy and rediculous, even the pretty SLM picture, which at first i though was a guy with long hair. Mythic was right, it is hard to do with it still looking anything like the TT, RPG, or any lore source. The best ones just look like skinny male chosen. The female head on male chosen body is the most crappy idea, although it would be funny, it would be utter crap.

IMHO the best thing to do would make the males voice more Chaos, then all the voice concerns would be gone, he wouldn't have a male voice, but if done correctlty a collection of many voices, both male and female, with slight moaning and wailing in the background. combo this with chosen starting with a helmet and a light full set of armor, and all whinning should stop, but it wouldn't people think greenskins are male still and gobbos if anything are more feminine than male with their pointed and slim body structure.

[Kuari]

I think the thing is that they just couldn't give goblins and orcs the exact same classes, so they had to compromise somehow... I mean, can't have goblin Choppa or Black Goblins, now can you?... I somehow doubt fanatics are exactly like Choppas, but I could be wrong... if they were, well, would have been better to only have had the squig herders and Black Orcs being limited

And HOLY!!!! WALL OF TEXT MUCH!?!?!!? Crit with a Vorpal Blade... sheesh..

[Ranti]

I think the orc shaman was simply a 'We have four classes and a race including two sections, lets split it in half' and they felt that a melee centric DPS option and tank were more 'orcy', which left ranged and magic to goblins.

Orc and goblin shamans are both VERY lore appropriate, each having their own Waagh magic table. It's not a 'Gobbos are brainier' thing :P

I do believe i have read a offical reasoning somewhere i just can't find it atm


I think it was more of a look think, to be balanced orc shamans and gobbo shamans would need to have the same stats, but a orc and gobbo having the same stats is stupid, the gobbo would be more brutal cunning and orcs are more cunning brutality

[Ranti]

I think the thing is that they just couldn't give goblins and orcs the exact same classes, so they had to compromise somehow... I mean, can't have goblin Choppa or Black Goblins, now can you?... I somehow doubt fanatics are exactly like Choppas, but I could be wrong... if they were, well, would have been better to only have had the squig herders and Black Orcs being limited

And HOLY!!!! WALL OF TEXT MUCH!?!?!!? Crit with a Vorpal Blade... sheesh..

there arn't that many walls of text in there, I paragraphed and indented as much as possible, although that one paragraph is fairly long....


if anything HOLY CRAP LONG POST...did the critting..


and, i think fanataics use daggers rather than axes...and are more crazy if that is possible

[Kuari]

there arn't that many walls of text in there, I paragraphed and indented as much as possible, although that one paragraph is fairly long....


if anything HOLY CRAP LONG POST...did the critting..


and, i think fanataics use daggers rather than axes...and are more crazy if that is possible

well still... that particular topic can move elsewhere.. back on subject...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e305/gallt/ChosenImg_041.jpg = win... gives the feminineness that many people want it seems, while still looking like a Chosen. Sure people don't like the boob plates probably, but this is probably the best we'll see... only way it could get better is a colored version.

[V'raneth]

I can't tell if this is serious or not!

[Ranti]

well still... that particular topic can move elsewhere.. back on subject...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e305/gallt/ChosenImg_041.jpg = win... gives the feminineness that many people want it seems, while still looking like a Chosen. Sure people don't like the boob plates probably, but this is probably the best we'll see... only way it could get better is a colored version.

That won't make anyone happy, except for maybe people who just want a female tag somewhere....that actually annoys some people like me....

It doesn't even look like a breast, more like he has even larger shoulders and chest...almost to the point of being way to big

[Kuari]

That won't make anyone happy, except for maybe people who just want a female tag somewhere....that actually annoys some people like me....

It doesn't even look like a breast, more like he has even larger shoulders and chest...almost to the point of being way to big

Well it being a 2d and black and white doesn't help much.. but other then that, like I said, that's probably the best it's going to get. Maybe a few other proportion adjustments, but behind that, only other options are making it cutesy or just female head and voice... person I think this current picture is 1,000 times better then just female head and voice

I think you're just being too picky, especially since Chosen aren't exactly natural anyways. Also if you compare the proportions to a DAoC troll... comes pretty close, just a little more feminine

and V'raneth... I'm serious

[Thoden Firehammer]

Ranti, you just like to whine, I think it would be great for the Chosen, I say we all sign a letter send the picture and tell them there it is!

the arms and maybe even legs could be a little more feminin .. not by much at all just a very small ammount but hell i'm being picky lets get this thing rolling! :P

[Ranti]

Well it being a 2d and black and white doesn't help much.. but other then that, like I said, that's probably the best it's going to get. Maybe a few other proportion adjustments, but behind that, only other options are making it cutesy or just female head and voice... person I think this current picture is 1,000 times better then just female head and voice

I think you're just being too picky, especially since Chosen aren't exactly natural anyways.

and that is why mythic excluded them. it was coming out way to cutesy. Or it was coming out awkward as just a female head on male body. Or it was so subtle that there where people who where walking away thinking it was a male.

for instance i though the picture at the end of SLM was a male when i analyzed it, i had to read to see what it was, and it was suppose to be a female, and that really didn't translate.

EDIT:

To picky?

ok lets compare

Girl version
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e305/gallt/ChosenImg_041.jpg

male version
http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Chaos/Careers/images/ChosenImg_04.jpg

if i had to choose which one was male, and lets assume both black and white

I would choose the first, it is more bulky and seems to just be more, the second one has a more famine line of the two

Now i am not the one demanding having female chosen, so maybe you are the one whinning

When covered in plate male the difference between male and female on humans blurs, we need a thin waist and breast to see if something is female. otherwise adding the questionable-lore female because repetitive and unnecessary work for mythic. If they introduced female chosen that looked like what kuari posted, different drama would be happening, and it would be in the art forum because people think they sexual dimorphism between the male and female chosen is non-existence, and that the girls need to be more girly. Basically, they would either look like crap and basically be males with a slight bulge in the upper region, or be so skinny and lore breaking it would not be allowed by GW.

[Kuari]

and that is why mythic excluded them. it was coming out way to cutesy. Or it was coming out awkward as just a female head on male body. Or it was so subtle that there where people who where walking away thinking it was a male.

for instance i though the picture at the end of SLM was a male when i analyzed it, i had to read to see what it was, and it was suppose to be a female, and that really didn't translate.

Yeah, well, look at muscle women.... hard to tell they're female.... and Thoden, good idea, I'll actually start a thread on this here... something petition style...

[V'raneth]

Or it was so subtle that there where people who where walking away thinking it was a male.

for instance i though the picture at the end of SLM was a male when i analyzed it, i had to read to see what it was, and it was suppose to be a female, and that really didn't translate.I don't see that as a problem at all.

EDIT: OMG you guys were serious! No no no. That picture is a tragedy. A hulking killer with torpedo breasts.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Ranti .. look at that picture and tell me what looks cute about that? i'm not talking about making the damned thing into a night elf like WoW, I think that picture is a great especily of a burly Northwomen the chest could come down some but hell it's been done in Photoshop so I say we send it and see if we get a responce

Also i'm not the one whining here, I really don't care if they're in or not, i'm being a hammerer or some other dwarf class and a male at that, this just seems like an interesting solution to mythic's problem, they said they can't seem to come up with a great idea for a female model for chosen I thought this one looked good enough, thank's for your opinion Ranti but since this is an MMO almost all classes of possible should be playable by both genders... however I am a heavy lore fan so that also means i'd rather have most of the empire and Dwarf classes be male only, I find it inroc that you're whining about the Chosen when it has lore for female chosen .. small yes but it's definitly not as slim as a female dwarf flighting in the front lines!

[Ranti]

I don't see that as a problem at all.

EDIT: OMG you guys were serious! No no no. That picture is a tragedy. A hulking killer with torpedo breasts.

So basically you just want a button on the character creation screen that says female and that option has longer hair options?

edit: and others want http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.upcheer.com/images/musclewomen/musclewomen1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.upcheer.com/images/musclewomen/&h=490&w=315&sz=48&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=WNgowgzT8dOOGM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=84&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmuscle%2Bwomen%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1% 26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official
....ok

edit2: and i think we are going to have to agree to disagree I just don't see the female chosen being done properly for a chosen while still being distinguishable from a male

[V'raneth]

So basically you just want a button on the character creation screen that says female and that option has longer hair options? Nope. I've actually put together a drawing and some diagrams that communicate what I'd like to have happen. Of course, this discussion is now spread across several threads (thanks kuari ;-)) so you probably missed that.

[Kuari]

So basically you just want a button on the character creation screen that says female and that option has longer hair options?

edit: and others want http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.upcheer.com/images/musclewomen/musclewomen1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.upcheer.com/images/musclewomen/&h=490&w=315&sz=48&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=WNgowgzT8dOOGM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=84&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmuscle%2Bwomen%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1% 26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official
....ok

edit2: and i think we are going to have to agree to disagree I just don't see the female chosen being done properly for a chosen while still being distinguishable from a male

Well look at some of those women, Ranti? say you put them in men's clothing, and put a paper bag on their head... they'd only be slightly distinguishable from men, but still would be a few key things... *shrugs* that's what this new picture kind of shows for Chosen

[Chanticleer]

Voted No, other.
if Mythic say they can't do it properly then I'm willing to bet they know better than Kuari does.

Frankly at that point the 'is it in the lore' arguments become entirely void. Have fun flogging your dead horse though (although that's probably more to the taste of a Slaaneshi chosen...)

[V'raneth]

This is just a bit of advice which I think might do some people good around here.

Don't be afraid to think for yourself just because you suspect someone else knows better. I'd rather be wrong once in a while than to be led around by others.

[Rofllove]

True, sometimes you have to think for yourself. They have decided not to include female chosen for no worthwhile reason, I think I will pass on warhammer online. If they chose to cut corners here where else will they?

[Kuari]

True, sometimes you have to think for yourself. They have decided not to include female chosen for no worthwhile reason, I think I will pass on warhammer online. If they chose to cut corners here where else will they?

I don't think you need to worry THAT much, just try to be loud about what you feel Mythic should do, rather then going with the flow.

[Chanticleer]

True, sometimes you have to think for yourself. They have decided not to include female chosen for no worthwhile reason that they've told us about, I think I will pass on warhammer online. If they chose to cut corners here where else will they?

Fixed it for you. You don't know what the reason is. I don't know what the reason is. The only people who do are Mythic and possibly GW. Given that female versions of other classes haven't been a problem (apart from greenskins obviously), I'm willing to bet there's some serious stumbling block or major design decision behind this. I can't imagine that they randomly decided they just didn't want to bother with it.

V'raneth, thinking for yourself is fine and all but saying you know better than others based on speculation and guesswork is just obtuse. Insisting that the people who do have all the info ignore reality and go along with your guesswork and speculation is just idiotic.

[Kuari]

You're right Chant, but until they DO tell us, there is no worthwhile reason... honestly despite what people say, Mythic can do it. They said they could basically, just might take some time... really though, there are two options for a female Chosen... cutesy, or being close to male... Cutesy doesn't fit lore, and for some reason they want to avoid the being similar to male despite that probably being the proper way. We'll see what they say though..... I imagine that more will be revealed by the next newsletter, or something before then..

[Mina]

I support Female Chosen. In fact, that's what I was going to play and the Chosen's awesomeness and anticipation of how rocking the female ones would be were a big part of why I got really excited over WAR.

Then I hear 'No female Chosen'. Hm? Disappointment. Maybe I'll play a male chosen, or something else, or maybe I just won't play. Yeah, maybe it sounds a little harsh, but I was really looking forward to it.

I really do hope Mythic does a turn-around on this issue.

-Mina
Ex-Chaos Chosen?


P.S. As for the pictures, #3 looks the best to me. You can tell it's female, but also that she wouldn't think twice about goring your intestines in the name of her god. And that photoshopped picture looks terrible, for the record.

[Kuari]

P.S. As for the pictures, #3 looks the best to me. You can tell it's female, but also that she wouldn't think twice about goring your intestines in the name of her god. And that photoshopped picture looks terrible, for the record.

Well obviously #3 LOOKS the best... but Chosen are supposed to be big and burly... does that look big and burly?

[Wyrmtongue]

I still can't believe all the hassle this has caused..

[versuvius]

people will complain and debate anything. Just sit back and watch them tear into eachother with insults and WoW references

[V'raneth]

V'raneth, thinking for yourself is fine and all but saying you know better than others based on speculation and guesswork is just obtuse. Insisting that the people who do have all the info ignore reality and go along with your guesswork and speculation is just idiotic. Here's the deal, as I've said before, perhaps elsewhere, this is not a technical issue. This is an aesthetic issue. What kind of info do you think they could possess that would be irrefutably convincing that something doesn't look good? So, I'm not sure what speculation or guesswork you're accusing us of having done. It seems you're the one speculating that there is some special knowledge they possess, but haven't mentioned, that would perfectly justify their decision. All we've ever said is that we believe it would look both iconic and appropriate, as well as be appealing in a way we find very chaotic. I think your attitude is really baseless deference. Have you really given your own sense of what is visually appealing over to a group of 'experts'?

[RookRJ]

I still can't believe all the hassle this has caused..

No sh*t... :eek:

[Selandri]

I can't believe people who don't give a flying Skavens bum about the issue are posting nonsensical comments. But then I'm good at disbelieving the illusion.

One thing stuck in my mind, on the topic of course, is Chaos armour. In the event that they go with Chaos armour, via the lore, fusing with the flesh of the user, then the users body shape would show, neh?

That said, the army book states that Chosen become larger and stronger, along with a fun bunch of other mutations ( Which Chaos armour accommodates ) so it could be argued that they'd still look masculine. However, the Chosen males do not look horrendously mutated, they seem like over sized men wearing a big suit of armour, so could it be that Mythics Chosen do not suffer from disfiguring mutations and therefore the female Chosen can not be made iconic due to the female form being less bulky than the males?

[Chanticleer]

Here's the deal, as I've said before, perhaps elsewhere, this is not a technical issue. This is an aesthetic issue. What kind of info do you think they could possess that would be irrefutably convincing that something doesn't look good? So, I'm not sure what speculation or guesswork you're accusing us of having done. It seems you're the one speculating that there is some special knowledge they possess, but haven't mentioned, that would perfectly justify their decision. All we've ever said is that we believe it would look both iconic and appropriate, as well as be appealing in a way we find very chaotic. I think your attitude is really baseless deference. Have you really given your own sense of what is visually appealing over to a group of 'experts'?

You're clutching at straws. Really give it up. I don't have to give up my sense of what is visually appealing to accept that if Mythic say they can't do female Chosen properly then that's probably true. You're assuming that it's purely an aesthetic issue based on extrapolation of some vague comments. That's the guesswork and speculation I'm talking about. As I said you don't know the full reasons, I don't know the full reasons. The people who do know the full reasons are the ones saying it can't be done. Visually appealing doesn't come into it.

[kharnage]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kharnage
Hopefully Mythic has taken a look and decided to totally ignore the Chosen forum. I want to but it's much like a car crash. However I've decided to stick to threads that seem to have a little common sense.

Mythic said in the beginning one of the lessons they have learned is just because players say they really want something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Listening to the players that whine the loudest often doesn't make the game any better, and many times makes it worse.

At least 50% want female Chosen... the other 50% mostly think similar to you.... Honestly, I think those who think it's just senseless whining after looking at the poll results lack a bit of logic...

And well, another part to that lesson is you have to learn when to listen to players. There is no possible way that changing their decision on this matter would make the game worse. it's utterly impossible... unless they go cutesy... I don't know why some people are so adamently against female Chosen. Doesn't make any sort of logical sense to me. It's either from people who worry that it might somehow "break the game", lemmings who bow down and kiss Mythic's feet, and would follow them off a cliff, sexist people, or misinformed people.

Thankfully the sexist group is the minority by a long shot... but they are there as proven by my poll.

First off, I realize Chosen in the Warhammer world can be female. Any person (male/female/other any skin or anything else you want to use) can be chosen by chaos. I don't see how anyone can argue with that. Even if there aren't any strong female warriors in the North (don't know/care) doesn't mean there can't be any female chosen. People from the empire, future , past or anywhere else can be transported or escape to the North.

All I'm saying is that Mythic said they couldn't make a decent female chosen character (not always the same as a chosen from the IP). I don't have a problem with their decision. And actually, the more "female chosen" art I see, the more I support their decision. I haven't seen anything yet that I thought would be any good for a female chosen. It may seem wierd to some people, but I support the idea that if it can't be done right, it shouldn't be done at all. Calling it sexist (or whatever name you feel you need to call people who don't agree with you) tells more about you than the people your namecalling.

And while some people obviously feel passionatly about this, when the game comes out it will be a pathetically small percentage of people. I think it's a riot when people think their small group represents the majority of people that will play the game. Everyone on this board makes up a small percentage. The people that care enough to vote about it is much smaller. Most people are sick of hearing all the whimpering about it already. You can make a million more threads or strike out in front of Mythic and GWs offices, but they know what they are doing. No I don't agree with everything they have done, but I understand it. I don't make a million threads/polls about the same thing and whine about it, but of course people are different. I totally understand letting your voice be heard, but there comes a point when it just becomes comical and sad.

[V'raneth]

You're clutching at straws. Really give it up. I don't have to give up my sense of what is visually appealing to accept that if Mythic say they can't do female Chosen properly then that's probably true. You're assuming that it's purely an aesthetic issue based on extrapolation of some vague comments. That's the guesswork and speculation I'm talking about. As I said you don't know the full reasons, I don't know the full reasons. The people who do know the full reasons are the ones saying it can't be done. Visually appealing doesn't come into it. Well, that's the whole issue then. You want to assume that there are more reasons for their decision than they've given and I believe what they've said is basically all of it. I ask you again, which one is speculation? I really have to reiterate though, this is an aesthetic issue. No other reasons have been given by Mythic, and no other possible reasons have been suggested by anyone here on the boards.

But we've reached the point in these 'discussions' where the point being argued is that people shouldn't care and aren't qualified to have an opinion. That's the point where I take my leave. I'd be happy to discuss the methods and difficulties involved in creating a female Chosen, but I'm not going to to waste my energy trying to convince people that having an opinion and voicing that opinion is both reasonable and worthwhile.

[Kuari]

Kharnage... look at the poll... TEN people have voted the sexist response... that's why I brought them up... nothing more...

[Mina]

Well obviously #3 LOOKS the best... but Chosen are supposed to be big and burly... does that look big and burly?
Heh, now I'm seeing why everyone thinks you're such an .

I apologize for giving my opinion and voting on a picture YOU supplied for your argument. I apologize if OUT OF THE THREE GIVEN I thought it looked the best. Way to kill support.

You know what? I don't care if they add female chosen, now. You've given me a reason to be happy, and I thank you for that.

If they're added? I'm happy.
If they're not? Kuari's not happy, thus I'm happy.

P.S. I'm not sorry. ;'(

[Kuari]

I'm not trying to kill support, I'm trying to get reasoning behind why you'd prefer night elf skinny when that simply isn't the style of the Chosen. I have yet to see a reason behind it

[LookinGreen]

The fact that option 3 is in the lead only makes me happy that Mythic made this decision.

[Kuari]

The fact that option 3 is in the lead only makes me happy that Mythic made this decision.

The fact that you judge by the idiots who support female Chosen and forget there are also idiots who support Mythic's decision makes me dislike like you very much

We have the people who want overly cutesy, you have at least 10 sexist people and a bunch of lemmings... not insulting all of your group, but still..

[LookinGreen]

The fact that you judge by the idiots who support female Chosen and forget there are also idiots who support Mythic's decision makes me dislike like you very much

We have the people who want overly cutesy, you have at least 10 sexist people and a bunch of lemmings... not insulting all of your group, but still..


I'm not saying we don't have our idiots but according to this particular poll, the "sexists" are our minority, while your "cutesies" are your majority.

[Crooked]

I'm really impartial on the 'female chosen' issue. I can understand Mythic's stance that they do not feel that it fits with the IP, yet understand Warhammer lore has exceptions to this as well. My reason for supporting Mythic in this choice is that I feel that there would simply be too many female chosen. I think there would be too many chosen that did not look like they were physically up to the description of the chosen's role. I selected #3 as I feel it would be an appropriate model for the female chosen. Still a slightly smaller frame overall, without making the character look excessively feminine, or overly masculine.

[Kuari]

I'm not saying we don't have our idiots but according to this particular poll, the "sexists" are our minority, while your "cutesies" are your majority.

The cutsies aren't a majority, they're a plurity, meaning the most, but not over 50% of them

Your lemmings combined with the sexists though probably come close

[LookinGreen]

Ya majority wasn't the right word but that doesn't really matter. People have different reasons to vote for different things. I really don't feel like arguing over something so trivial such wording or who I think are idiots. To me option 3 is are all votes to the No side to me. I would suspect option 3 is what Mythic was trying to avoid and if it makes me a sheeple, lemming or whatever you want to call it because I agree with Mythic on this particular point then fine.

[Kuari]

Ya majority wasn't the right word but that doesn't really matter. People have different reasons to vote for different things. I really don't feel like arguing over something so trivial such wording or who I think are idiots. To me option 3 is are all votes to the No side to me. I would suspect option 3 is what Mythic was trying to avoid and if it makes me a sheeple, lemming or whatever you want to call it because I agree with Mythic on this particular point then fine.

I just think you should form your own opinion rather then judge based on a group's stupid decision..

I wouldn't call you a lemming because your reason goes beyond "Mythic said so" or "no point in arguing". I still think the logic you're using is flawed though.

Oh, and before anyone says anything, if you can point out a flaw in my logic that I can't argue, well... we'll see...

[Rayning]

I voted for #2, but I would also be happy with #3. Heck, you can make her bigger if you like... something along the lines of my DAoC Troll Female Shaman and I would be happy.

[Kuari]

I voted for #2, but I would also be happy with #3. Heck, you can make her bigger if you like... something along the lines of my DAoC Troll Female Shaman and I would be happy.

I wanted to slap you when you mentioned #3... until you mentioned DAoC troll... which suddenly makes me wonder... do a lot of people maybe only like #3 more because it actually looks like a Chosen's Tier 4?

[Arijharn]

Are they lemmings? Or are they just people with similar viewpoints?

[spirit]

None of the above:

1- Looks too nice. She looks like she would be protecting a village, not plundering it.
2- Mutations ar ethe only thing that make her look remotely threatening, which is the area of the Marauder not the Chosen
3- Looks like a Dark Elf wearing Tzeentch clothing
4 (the photoshop)- Doesn't look like a female. Looks like a man with badly fitted armour.


I think that is the main problem Mythic have. You can't make the females bulky or they look like men with all that armour on. If they weren't wearing armour, you would be able to go "hey, that's female", even if they are like all the muscle women pictures dotted around. Because lets face it, even the thickest among you can tell that those muscle women are female. If you can't, get help. Now.


That said, any of them would be fine for me (except 4, which looks weird). I don't see chosen as needing to be necessarily bulky or huge. chosen are tanks because they are stupidly skilled warriors wearing Chaos armour. They don't need to be huge to get in your way. And Chaos armour is just as tough whether it is 3 inches thick or an inch, because it is magical. It ain't really the metal that is stopping the blows.

Another thing, if chosens armour is fused onto them...do they even have jibblies anymore? Even if they do they'd never get use out of them ever again...although I imagine Slaaneshi Chosen's armour would have a built in flap.

And Kuari, as you mentioned it earlier in the thread I thought I'd answer it, but the chosens helmet is not part of the Chaos armour fusion. It is a seperate helmet they put on later. You see Chaos without helmets all over the place in pictures and in stories.

[Kuari]

Are they lemmings? Or are they just people with similar viewpoints?

Lemmings in this case would = those who think that whatever Mythic/other company decides is ok, simply for the reason of because Mythic/other company saying so.

[GhostMessiah]

None of these pic's capture what a Chosen really is. Buff... Much stronger and larger than a normal Human. All the pictures have feminine qualities but none of them show something that looks remotly similar to Male Chosen Pics, they need to be large and imposing yet still retain a certain amount of femininity...

[Selandri]

WFRP Tome of Corruption lists the helmet as part of the Chaos armour.

Two issues though, if the armour is fused to you your body shape would show, so would not the more feminine looking armours be the most lore appropriate?

[GhostMessiah]

There can be TOO feminine pictures, like the ones shown, as a Chosen they retain some of their former attributes but they become very buff.... none of these pictures seems to me to fit that criteria.

[spirit]

WFRP Tome of Corruption lists the helmet as part of the Chaos armour.


http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://uk.games-workshop.com/hordesofchaos/miniature-gallery/images/chaos-warriors.gif&imgrefurl=http://uk.games-workshop.com/hordesofchaos/miniature-gallery/20/&h=303&w=395&sz=70&hl=en&start=3&um=1&tbnid=Iixxw9BB7KtsBM:&tbnh=95&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3DChaos%2BWarrior%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1 %26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DN

The musician


http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://medusav.us.games-workshop.com/introduction/armies/images/chaos.jpg&imgrefurl=http://medusav.us.games-workshop.com/introduction/armies/chaos.htm&h=330&w=200&sz=31&hl=en&start=10&um=1&tbnid=4aE6pw56XFKKLM:&tbnh=119&tbnw=72&prev=/images%3Fq%3DChaos%2BWarrior%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1 %26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DN

40k, but still.

http://www.fantasyshop.gr/gallery/wh-stratoi-chaos-warrior-artwork2.jpg

Another one


It's quite obvious from art and models that a Chosen doesn't need to have a helmet on.

[Selandri]

-Shrugs- Arguable. The models you linked are Chaos Warriors and may be used as Chosen, that said the old sprue came with mutations to use in converting your Chosen.

GW ignores the lore as they like, but I tend to find that WFRP gives more lore than the army books / models, and it states that the Chaos armour is full plate including a helm.

You could then argue that only the body armour fuses to the skin, the helmet being separate, but you'd open yourself up to the argument that any individual piece of the armour could then be held as separate and therefore the entire lore appropriate fusing becomes a nonentity.

I could just have said 'It's quite obvious from the lore that they do', but that would have been a bit on the side of sarcastic.

[spirit]

I could just have said 'It's quite obvious from the lore that they do', but that would have been a bit on the side of sarcastic.

I could have just said "it's quite obvious from the Mythic concept art that they don't". But yknow, that'd just be too logical :)

[Selandri]

Ah, but Warhammer tabletop Chosen are not necessarily Mythic Chosen. For one, Warhammer tabletop allows for female Chosen. :D

[Loekii]

I agree with Mythics stance and opinion.

I like the concept of the current Choosen, and I agree that adding femine traits would only hinder the apperance and add a negative impact overall.

[Arijharn]

Lemmings in this case would = those who think that whatever Mythic/other company decides is ok, simply for the reason of because Mythic/other company saying so.

As opposed to actually generally thinking it's okay and not really a big deal as far as things go? Talking to my girlfriends leads me to the opinion that you are taking this much more seriously than the women are themselves, at least those who I have spoken too.

Quote:

Her: "You know, it is a bit retarded that female's can't be Chosen, but I don't think it's that much of a big deal."

EDIT:

Actually, I can think if RP servers (if they exist) in which this could be potentially a big deal and which I would disagree with her, but I guess this is something for Mythic to find out after launch and then see if it's warranted.

[Kimmie]

its not a big deal to me because i would want to see my models face. but if i had to pick one it would be 3. if i could change the armor i might like it better.

[Kuari]

Actually, I can think if RP servers (if they exist) in which this could be potentially a big deal and which I would disagree with her, but I guess this is something for Mythic to find out after launch and then see if it's warranted.

And that's exactly the reason why I'm a bit intense about it

[Dudds]

The fact that you judge by the idiots who support female Chosen and forget there are also idiots who support Mythic's decision makes me dislike like you very much

Kurai, the fact that you attack anyone who differs from your viewpoint labeling them as Sexist, a Lemming or and idiot makes me dislike you. You are disregarding everyones opinion instead of being open to discussion, you don't seem to want to listen to another perspective.

I have no argument with Mythic's decision, does that make me a lemming or an idiot? No, I'm entitled to my opinion. I honestly don't think that Mythic could achieve the same image and impact of "the Chosen" and make both males and females. I can't see the Chaos Warrior in the trailer or the Warriors in the Reign of Chaos Trailers in female form, sorry if that offends you, it bears no relation to my view on women I just can't imagine it. The only way i can see female Chosen as working would make them feel separate from the male Chosen and almost a class in their own style which i feel is unnecessary, am I sexist? No this is simply my opinion. Do not tarnish the views of others because you don't agree with them.

Yes there are female Chosen within the Chaos legions but they're not a stuck archetype. Much like the Primarch's of 40k lore their talents, skills and even appearance is varied and different tribes select their Chosen for various reasons. The tribe Mythic used pick their Chosen from the North men, just because there are female Champions does not mean they're wide spread to all clans. Mythic felt that aesthetically the impact would not be achieved with female characters. Why should i be forced to feel like I have done something wrong because I do not find argument with this decision? Why should I be made to feel that my opinion is inferior than others because you disagree? Why should I feel like my voice isn't worth as much as the next man?

From my understanding WAR is very involving story wise, if the end result is lacking because of the exclusion then I have made a mistake, until that happens I stand by my opinion and I would very much appreciate if i wasn't made to feel like I have done something wrong because of it.

[Kuari]

To Dudds: No, women wouldn't be able to stand up to men 11 5.47%
If that isn't sexist, what is it?

I'm not labeling everyone as lemmings, just the people that would agree with anything Mythic told them, no matter what

Now your reasoning I don't call quite so lemmingish... but honestly, I don't believe the female Chosen should have quite the same impact as a male Chosen... similar maybe, but not the same..

[Urzimon]

So here I am taking time out of my busy schedule to let you and maybe a few other people know that this thread's strategy is make people feel so frustrated, so defeated, so lost, so futureless in the prevailing system that they are willing to take a chance and let this thread undermine the foundations of society until a single thrust suffices to make the entire edifice collapse in hopes that letting this thread do such a thing may actually improve society. The points I plan to make in this letter will sound tediously familiar to everyone who wants to build a world overflowing with compassion and tolerance. Nevertheless, the facts as I see them simply do not support the false, but widely accepted, notion that mediocrity and normalcy are ideal virtues. Let me mention again that this thread flaunts its personal platitudes and attitudes in front of everyone else. Now, I could go off on that point alone, but it has been said that there is little doubt that it is the devil incarnate. I, in turn, suspect that it possesses no significant intellectual skills whatsoever and has no interest in erudition. Heck, it can't even spell or define "erudition", much less achieve it. The gloss that this thread's adulators put on this thread's tricks unfortunately does little to lend support to the thesis that it is a card-carrying member of the Hypocrisy Club. This thread wants to encourage a deadly acceptance of intolerance. It gets better: It actually believes that it's the best thing to come along since the invention of sliced bread. I guess no one's ever told it that I have a message for it. My message is that, for the good of us all, it should never oppress, segregate, and punish others. It should never even try to do such an antihumanist thing. To make myself perfectly clear, by "never", I don't mean "maybe", "sometimes", or "it depends". I mean only that the point is that if everyone spent just five minutes a day thinking about ways to show you, as dispassionately as possible, what kind of unenlightened, atrabilious thoughts this thread is thinking about these days, we'd all be a lot better off. Is five minutes a day too much to ask for the promise of a better tomorrow? I sure hope not, but then again, this thread had promised us liberty, equality, and fraternity. Instead, it gave us resistentialism, fascism, and feudalism. I suppose we should have seen that coming, especially since if one accepts the framework I've laid out here, it follows that there are many roads leading to the defeat of this thread's plans to impugn the patriotism of its opponents. I indubitably believe that all of these roads must eventually pass through the same set of gates: the ability to help others to see through the empty and meaningless statements uttered by this thread and its worshippers.

This thread's vassals say that nothing would help society more than for them to make me the target of a constant, consistent, systematic, sustained campaign of attacks. Sorry, I don't buy that. If I didn't sincerely believe that I cannot, in good conscience, step aside and let worthless bozos foster suspicion -- if not hatred -- of "outsiders", then I wouldn't be writing this letter. While you or I might find it natural to want to take up the all-encompassing challenge of freedom, justice, equality, and the pursuit of life with full dignity, before it initiated a frotteurism flap to help promote its inimical strictures, people everywhere were expected to shatter the adage that this thread's slimy terrorist organization is a benign and charitable agency. Nowadays, it's the rare person indeed who realizes that it is easy to see faults in others. But it takes perseverance to debate the efficacy of its obstreperous announcements. Call me a cynic, but I must ask that this thread's agents provocateurs expose the connections between the selfish problems that face us and the key issues of paternalism and post-structuralism. I know they'll never do that, so here's an alternate proposal: They should, at the very least, back off and quit trying to deny citizens the ability to draw their own conclusions about the potential for violence that it may be generating.


In all fairness, this thread claims that everything is happy and fine and good. That claim illustrates a serious reasoning fallacy, one that is pandemic in its statements. Then again, this thread has commented that war is peace, freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength. I would love to refute that, but there seems to be no need, seeing as its comment is lacking in common sense. Here's an idea: Instead of giving this thread the ability to lead us, lemminglike, over the precipice of self-destruction, why don't we lead it out of a dream world and back to hard reality? If we do, we'll then be able to resolve a number of lingering problems. For your edification, I should honestly point out that I frequently wish to tell this thread that you won't hear its stooges admit that it's unrestrained. But being a generally genteel person, however, I always bite my tongue. If I seem a bit conceited, it's only because I'm trying to communicate with this thread on its own level. As a parting thought, remember that this thread will go to almost any extreme to prevent my message of truth from getting out.

[Selandri]

I can't believe that webpage still exists.

[Arijharn]

Now your reasoning I don't call quite so lemmingish... but honestly, I don't believe the female Chosen should have quite the same impact as a male Chosen... similar maybe, but not the same..

And damn everyone elses opinion right?

[Kuari]

And damn everyone elses opinion right?

Never said that, I just don't like the people I defined as lemmings, those who picked #3 because they're skinny and that set of annoyingly sexist people.

[Arijharn]

Never said that, I just don't like the people I defined as lemmings, those who picked #3 because they're skinny and that set of annoyingly sexist people.

I wouldn't think people who picked 3 are sexist, they are just those who have an admiring eye. Of course, doesn't make much sense in a video game but still. People who picked that 'can't stand up against men' option are absolute morons though, there's nothing to suggest that a female Chosen would loose straight up to a male Chosen in a fight. Especially Chaos being Chaos.

[LookinGreen]

...... and that set of annoyingly sexist people.

I guess you are all for men boxing women, and the abolition of all segregated sport leagues in the favor of unisex leagues. I didn't pick that option but saying they are sexist because they picked it seems a little extreme to me.

[Kuari]

I wouldn't think people who picked 3 are sexist, they are just those who have an admiring eye. Of course, doesn't make much sense in a video game but still. People who picked that 'can't stand up against men' option are absolute morons though, there's nothing to suggest that a female Chosen would loose straight up to a male Chosen in a fight. Especially Chaos being Chaos.

When did I say #3 people were sexist? You must have misunderstood...

And LookinGreen... yes... yes I am.... women may not be typically as strong as men.... but they can be if they work at it...

[Lord Dobo]

And while some people obviously feel passionatly about this, when the game comes out it will be a pathetically small percentage of people.
You know, I kinda wonder about this. Although I would love to believe that millions of people share my love of warhammer, I just know that is not the case. I think it's reasonable to assume that the game will be big and easily get to two million in it's first year, maybe more when reviews get out and word of mouth spreads. But what bothers a "minority" of the hardcore (what else can we be if we are talking this much about a game that is still far from realease) I feel is going to be much more of a deal to the people who are coming to this new. A lot of them are going to look at the chosen and the fact that they are essentially just men chosen by a god to be given chaos armor and wonder why they couldn't have chosen women just as easily when there are women warriors everywhere else.

So my views about lore aside, and your views, and Kuari's views and so many others as well... it's the vast horde of non-warhammer fans that will be looking at this with puzzlement. They will simply wonder why they just didn't work a little harder to make a evil human woman in platemail.

I think the only reason that these threads even keep going is that we are all reacting to EACH OTHER and not really to mythic. I think the majority of us, even those who think mythic is making a mistake in the long run because of all the people who will notice this come launch, will still play the game. But it's the whole "he said this and I need to argue until he understands" that is silly. None of us are going to change our minds on this. That is way too obvious, agreed? So let's stop being silly, all of us, and start acting our age. We can disagree with each other and still have a good forum.

Yes, everyone agree to disagree and move on? Mythic is all grown up now and has to deal with the reprecussions at launch and during press reviews, whatever they may be.

[Skaarj]

People are STILL complaining about this?

Suck it up people. The Chosen is male only, why bother arguing about it? I realize there's freedom of speech on these forums and all, but stop beating the dead horse.

[Kuari]

People are STILL complaining about this?

Suck it up people. The Chosen is male only, why bother arguing about it? I realize there's freedom of speech on these forums and all, but stop beating the dead horse.

How about... you don't like it, stop reading? The horse is alive and kicking still... sure most of the arguements are out there, but Mythic is still holding back on some details...

[Skaarj]

Hbut Mythic is still holding back on some details...

Explain your reasoning. I'd love to hear this.

[Kuari]

Explain your reasoning. I'd love to hear this.

#1 Mbj said there was more to it then Josh stated, but never gave details..

#2 We still haven't heard what exactly was said in that conversation between Mythic and GW

[Skaarj]

#1 Mbj said there was more to it then Josh stated, but never gave details..

But the reasons josh ALREADY gave are clearly accurate. I remember quoting all of them. Many many times. Why is that not enough for you? He could of easily NOT of said "there is more to it than what Josh had said" and easily avoided all the extra riff-raff. And MBJ does not seem stupid at all.

They aren't trying to undermine the players. They're trying to make the game fun for everyone.


#2 We still haven't heard what exactly was said in that conversation between Mythic and GW

Do you think GW will take something to do with their IP lightly at all? Also, don't you think if it got past GW, that it would be perfectly legit?

GW already viciously pulled the plug on 1 Warhammer game I know about. They're obviously not kidding around.

[Kuari]

Many people believe the reasons Josh gave simply aren't good enough... it doesn't even sound like the art people tried, so it kind of sounds a bit.... underconfident...

[Skaarj]

Many people believe the reasons Josh gave simply aren't good enough... it doesn't even sound like the art people tried, so it kind of sounds a bit.... underconfident...

That's stupid. Why?

Look at the art they HAVE done. They've got ENORMOUS talent. They could pull it off if they wanted to. But they didn't because they wanted a certain flavor of the Chosen.

[illukar]

Of course it's unlikely that they're going to change their stance - anything is possible, but they made it pretty clear they weren't interested in discussing it, and my own opinion of the reason why they're not going to back down is because the initial decision is an embarrassing one when analysed - an underlying feeling that butch girls (non-feminine females) can't be made to look good, and only good looking girls are worth putting into the game.

Still, whether to take a stand for speaking one's mind, or just to express some distress at being denied a particular playing option, it's not exactly hurting anyone to have a thread like this grind on, even if nothing new is added to the debate.

I would still really love to see Mythic's failed concept art for female Chosen, though. Not only to see what it looked like, but because it would show they tried and didn't take the 'butch girls aren't cool' stance from the outset.

[Skaarj]

- an underlying feeling that butch girls (non-feminine females) can't be made to look good, and only good looking girls are worth putting into the game..

I agree with the fact that if females can't be made to look good, they shouldn't be put into the game. The females I've seen so far look like females. So they're good.

[Kuari]

I agree with the fact that if females can't be made to look good, they shouldn't be put into the game. The females I've seen so far look like females. So they're good.

That I find a bit disagreeable.... why should every female look like the average male's vision of perfection?

[Skaarj]

That I find a bit disagreeable.... why should every female look like the average male's vision of perfection?

Because that's what the most common female looks like? Slender?

Wouldn't you agree that THAT is iconic amongst females?

[Selandri]

In the Warhammer IP I would expect them to be fit, not necessarily slender, and fairly well muscled. The nobility or high echelon priesthood could be running to fat.

I think Kuari is referring more to a general 'look good' thing, ie, it is not necessary for a woman to be aesthetically gorgeous for her to be 'iconic' to the world.

[GhostMessiah]

That I find a bit disagreeable.... why should every female look like the average male's vision of perfection?

I dont see him saying anything about perfection, he said good. that means not ugly, cause reallly, do you wana see a bunch of ugly female characters running around in a game? or a bunch of ugly male characters for that matter?

No you don't.

cause just in case u didnt notice, no character models i have seen in any successful mmo are ugly, male or female.

[Arijharn]

That I find a bit disagreeable.... why should every female look like the average male's vision of perfection?

Because I would imagine that a woman's vision of 'perfection' is quite similar to a man's, look at celebrity images for example, look at gossip magazines etc, et al. Therefore, I would submit that a woman's notions of another woman's beauty is similar to a man's, because generally speaking we're from the same society and with the same rough upbringing and experience with social norms.


I would say in the warhammer world, females are somewhat slender (not supermodel of course, just... normal) but with more degree of muscle, although I would say the nobility is very fair and more untoned (but not really 'fat' either due to the fact they probably have done some hard knocks... it's Warhammer!)

[Kuari]

Because that's what the most common female looks like? Slender?

Wouldn't you agree that THAT is iconic amongst females?

And is the common man muscular to the point that the average Chosen male is?

[Arijharn]

... I defined as lemmings, those who picked #3 because they're skinny and that set of annoyingly sexist people.

That is where you said people who picked three because they were skinny and annoyingly sexist.

[Kuari]

That is where you said people who picked three because they were skinny and annoyingly sexist.

No... the skinny was refering to #3..

Sexist was refering to the never stand up to men thing