Sorcerer: Type of caster?

[mockingbyrd7]

What type of caster do you think the Sorcerer will be? (From what the developers say, all classes will have at least SOME dps, so none of these options are pure support or healbot, etc.)

-Straight Blaster Caster
-Support/Blaster Caster
-Healer/Blaster Caster
-Melee/Blaster Caster
-DOT/Blaster Caster
-Debuffer/Blaster Caster
-Other

Discuss.

[Gemini]

Well, option number 2 and 3 are pretty much the same. I know theres alot more to support than healing, but most healers don't JUST use heals, but other support skills.

[Duty]

"Life Drain" Caster is my guess. They may make something healy out of it, I voted other.

[Azrayne2.0]

I'd say either a straight DPS type or a kind of lifedraining healer type.

I'm hoping for the first, since it seems far more inline with what the sorceress in the lore is supposed to be, and is something I personally find more enjoyable. Whether they have another valid way around the lack of healers for DE's though, we'll see.

[Nathar]

I think they're almost too perfect for the healer/support spot. Clearly they'll be built about ranged dps. I'd like to see them have spells that slowly fill a "soul bar" or something like it. This bar then is used to fuel more powerful heals. Through this you get the "you have to fight to heal better" thing that Mythic is looking for.

And to those of you who say the class has no support for healing but just ranged slaughtering I disagree. Look to soul stealer and steal soul (I think those are the names) from the dark lore and death lore. Sure this is only 2 spells out of 18 spells a dark elf sorceress can wield but look around at casters in warhammer in general. Healing isn't very used in general because most soldiers in warhammer die pretty fast (from one hit).

I want them as ranged dps/healer (support).

[Watcher]

I don't :D (we do seem to disagree a lot, Nathar).

Nah, I'd like to see sorcerers implemented in a blaster/debuffer way. Especially considering how fragile elves usually are, it'd be nice to be backed up by a caster that can seriously reduce the combat effectiveness of your opponents.

[Zoatibix]

Looking at the spell list they seem to have more Direct Damage spells, one debuff and a life-drain.

So primarily blaster. Medium to short ranged. I get the impression Dark Elves love slamming raw dark magic into the enemy and tearing their flesh asunder in interesting ways.

I'd like to avoid them throwing around fire. Darkness and Ice should be their DD elements..

I'd be more inclined to think debuffer for a second aspect - confusing, scaring, blinding the enemy.

Druchii aren't particularly warm and fluffy. So healing others is a bit odd for them - the problem with having a sorceresses watching your back is that she's far too likely to be blowing holes in the enemy to heal you.

OTOH, just because one is evil doesn't mean one has to be stupid. I think that a cunning commander will recognise the value of intelligent healing. The obvious way to damage and heal is of course our old pal - Life Drain!

[Maj]

Looking at the spell list they seem to have more Direct Damage spells, one debuff and a life-drain.

So primarily blaster. Medium to short ranged. I get the impression Dark Elves love slamming raw dark magic into the enemy and tearing their flesh asunder in interesting ways.

I'd like to avoid them throwing around fire. Darkness and Ice should be their DD elements..

I'd be more inclined to think debuffer for a second aspect - confusing, scaring, blinding the enemy.

Druchii aren't particularly warm and fluffy. So healing others is a bit odd for them - the problem with having a sorceresses watching your back is that she's far too likely to be blowing holes in the enemy to heal you.

OTOH, just because one is evil doesn't mean one has to be stupid. I think that a cunning commander will recognise the value of intelligent healing. The obvious way to damage and heal is of course our old pal - Life Drain!

QFT, you basically read my mind heheh. I am hoping for a strong DD caster with a few debuff spells...I really can not say anymore because Zoatibix covered it all.

~Edit~ Thought about it...and I figured I could say we need more Dark Elf Avatars :shock:

[Xurré]

I voted “support”, but for me that also includes debuffing and healing abilities (and a good dose of damage ones of course). I don’t think they’ll be a “healer” class as such, but then no class is said to be. They’re just the ranged casting class which also happens to include a few abilities that can help heal friendly units. And yes, I think these abilities will be of the “Soul Stealer” variety.


- Xurré

[V'raneth]

Here's one way to look at it. If the Sorceress does become the support class, that would mean that the Ranged DPS would have to do more damage than her. The likely candidate for that role, if the Sorceress hasn't taken it, is the Shade. Would it not seem very wrong to have a Shade being more lethal from range than a Sorceress? I think it would.

[Selandri]

Gut says V'raneth has a killer point. In other words, I agree 110%, but my knowledge is based on tabletop where a shade is nowhere near the potential for devastation a sorceress has. Will that translate to WAR Online or will it undergo a small, albeit intense, change?

In tabletop the Sorceress is a Hero or Lord choice, while the Shade is... special? Woot. I was right, special. So there's a big difference in their effectiveness due to, if nothing else, the points cost for using them. But then a Chosen is far, far more deadly than an orc boy or a goblin, yet will be balanced for one on ones with these classes in game.

The problem with defining something like this is it's one thing in tabletop but tabletop has its own rules to go with it, the MMO has to function differently so while I do not believe that a Shade should out DPS a Sorceress, I could understand Mythic doing that.

[V'raneth]

Imagining an Orc that can go toe to toe with a Chosen is much less difficult to imagine than a Shade that could survive a shoot out with a Sorceress. The reason being, Shades are not even high damage infantry on the tabletop. They're just infiltrators. Their deal is not damage, it's stealth.

[Xurré]

Here's one way to look at it. If the Sorceress does become the support class, that would mean that the Ranged DPS would have to do more damage than her. The likely candidate for that role, if the Sorceress hasn't taken it, is the Shade. Would it not seem very wrong to have a Shade being more lethal from range than a Sorceress? I think it would.
Yes, it would... but I don't agree with your base premise (that the sorceress being support would mean that the ranged damage slot would have to out-damage her). In fact, I'd almost say the reverse.

The way I see it, if the Sorceress becomes support then the ranged slot doesn't have to do as much damage as otherwise, because the Sorceress, while support, would still very much be able to do damage at range (that is, after all, what dark magic does). This the ranged class doesn't have to be quite as ranged and instead of having a Shade for that role one can have a Beastmaster (for whom it wouldn't even be strange to out-damage the Sorceress throguh their pet if need be) who is a little less ranged perhaps, but that's alright since the Sorceress makes up for the difference.

Hmm, I hope that explanation made sense.


- Xurré

[Selendor]

Why play a ranged DPS class if the support class is going to outdamage you anyway, though? (Assuming Sorceress=support)

And if Sorceresses 'are' ranged DPS, who would you stick in the support role? (Assuming Sorceress=range)

And if you don't care for the Orc/Chosen analogy, how about a Goblin Shaman that can go toe to toe with an Elf mage? Or a Marauder outdamaging a Chosen, for that matter. Certain things have to be done in the name of balance.

Just something to think about on both sides.

[Kharlene]

I'd like a classic Nuker/DoT caster, but if they were a Nuker/Debuffer type, I'd still be on Cloud 9 as far as casters go :mrgreen: But I'd be severely disappointed if the Sorcerer(ess) wound up being reduced to the Dark Elves primary support caster... and I highly doubt they will wind up being their healer type; albeit if they were I would be even more disappointed... :(

[Duty]

I'd like a classic Nuker/DoT caster, but if they were a Nuker/Debuffer type, I'd still be on Cloud 9 as far as casters go :mrgreen: But I'd be severely disappointed if the Sorcerer(ess) wound up being reduced to the Dark Elves primary support caster... and I highly doubt they will wind up being their healer type; albeit if they were I would be even more disappointed... :(

Only problem is...who WOULD be their support caster?

[Xurré]

Why play a ranged DPS class if the support class is going to outdamage you anyway, though? (Assuming Sorceress=support)
Why play a tank if the melee dps class outdamages you?

it's not all about dealing damage. People play a class because what the class does sounds like it appeals to them (irrespective of what role 'slot' it might fall in, which I doubt will be listed on the character creation screen anyway).

And the Beastmaster I suggested would still have the potential to out-damage the Sorceress, just not in the traditional 'ranged' way (but because they use insane monsters to do the damage).


Then again, I can see them focussing more on the debuffing part of the Sorceress' magic and less on direct damage. I don't know about that though.


- Xurré

[Selendor]

Why play a tank if the melee dps class outdamages you?

it's not all about dealing damage. People play a class because what the class does sounds like it appeals to them (irrespective of what role 'slot' it might fall in, which I doubt will be listed on the character creation screen anyway).

And the Beastmaster I suggested would still have the potential to out-damage the Sorceress, just not in the traditional 'ranged' way (but because they use insane monsters to do the damage).


Then again, I can see them focussing more on the debuffing part of the Sorceress' magic and less on direct damage. I don't know about that though.


- Xurré

People play a tank because they like to tank. :P A tank is viable because it can take more damage than a DPS class can. But the whole point of a DPS class is to do DPS. You seem to be under the impression that they're not sticking to the 4 archetypes they've mentioned, and I have to disagree. Dark Elves will have a Tank, a Melee DPSer, a ranged DPSer, and a support class. If the support class is ranged DPS and the ranged DPS is melee/support, they've failed in that regard imo.

[Black Razor]

Theres not really any choice OTHER then the Sorcerer/Sorceress for Support role. Fact is there the only thing in the Dark Elf army that has anything CLOSE to healing ability ..there drains. I know alot of people have tried to rationalize Witch Elves into a support role but it makes absolutely NO sense. Thats like trying to say the Cold One Knight could be support .. 'He could totally have his cold one lick them and deaden the pain!' .. no. Sorceress is as close to tailor made for the support role as your gonna get in the Dark Elf army list. Granted now that leaves a gaping hole for ranged dps ..but I think the Shade can be adapted without getting off lore to fill the role very well.

[V'raneth]

I continue to believe an adaptation of the Beastmaster would make an excellent Support character. They're probably the class candidate with the least background behind them, so that does give us extra room to fill things in. I would choose the Beastmaster's, maybe they could call them Slavers for the game, necessary understanding of anatomy and physiology as the basis of their support abilities, along with their ability to drive living creatures to the absolute brink of death. Salves, potions, minor magics, and the crack of whips would be his tools.

Oh, and the suggestion that the support class would equal or surpass the Ranged DPS class at ranged DPS, just isn't going to happen. It'd be incompatible with the whole preceding class philosophy. Yes, Support characters can do a useful amount of damage, but I would think that if the Ranged DPS class didn't do substantially more damage, then there's been some mistake made.

[Azrayne2.0]

I continue to believe an adaptation of the Beastmaster would make an excellent Support character. They're probably the class candidate with the least background behind them, so that does give us extra room to fill things in. I would choose the Beastmaster's, maybe they could call them Slavers for the game, necessary understanding of anatomy and physiology as the basis of their support abilities, along with their ability to drive living creatures to the absolute brink of death. Salves, potions, minor magics, and the crack of whips would be his tools.

Oh, and the suggestion that the support class would equal or surpass the Ranged DPS class at ranged DPS, just isn't going to happen. It'd be incompatible with the whole preceding class philosophy. Yes, Support characters can do a useful amount of damage, but I would think that if the Ranged DPS class didn't do substantially more damage, then there's been some mistake made.

Overall I just think sorceress is no more suited to the role of support than any of the other potential classes.

I wonder if Mythic will pull a Zealot for the dark elves and invent us a new class to take the role. Some kind of blood-priest of khaine, or whatever. Along the same lines as what people are suggesting for the witch elves, builds up healing by DPSing and draining the enemies of their blood and life force, and using it to heal their allies.

[Xurré]

I wonder if Mythic will pull a Zealot for the dark elves and invent us a new class to take the role. Some kind of blood-priest of khaine, or whatever. Along the same lines as what people are suggesting for the witch elves, builds up healing by DPSing and draining the enemies of their blood and life force, and using it to heal their allies.
I certainly hope not, because the dark elves just have way too many interesting (potential) classes already that people would love to see. Of course, I also feel that the Sorceress would work perfectly fine in the 'support' role, so I don't see the need to invent anything to begin with.


- Xurré

[Azrayne2.0]

I certainly hope not, because the dark elves just have way too many interesting (potential) classes already that people would love to see. Of course, I also feel that the Sorceress would work perfectly fine in the 'support' role, so I don't see the need to invent anything to begin with.


- Xurré

Other than the fact that it would require a total reversal of what the sorceress is supposed to be about, sure :|

[Xurré]

Other than the fact that it would require a total reversal of what the sorceress is supposed to be about, sure :|
No it wouldn't.


- Xurré

[Azrayne2.0]

No it wouldn't.


- Xurré

Yeah I guess you're right, dark magic is all about support and healing and making people feel better right. You know what with all those healing spells and buffs the sorceress has access to in the TT lore...

[Xurré]

Yeah I guess you're right, dark magic is all about support and healing and making people feel better right. You know what with all those healing spells and buffs the sorceress has access to in the TT lore...
Who said anything about it all needing to be about “support and healing and making people feel better”? Maybe you’re still thinking typical “healer” archetypes from other games (“and I heal, and I heal, and I heal”).

Dark magic is about doing damage in vile ways and debuffing (which I also consider “support”). And more than 10% of the spells Sorceresses have available to them (16.7% of their dark magic spells) have a healing component to them. And you know what the beauty is? It heal by, get this, doing damage.

So it seems to me that this would fit perfectly with Mythic’s stated goal of having ‘healers’ who are actually involved in the fight and do lots of damage as well (next to also healing a bit). They aren’t healers in the (MMO) traditional sense of the word, they just happen to be the ones with some healing ability. This doesn’t mean that they require “a total reversal of what the sorceress is supposed to be about”, quite the opposite as it requires them to be a class that lives on doing damage (and likely has a number of wicked debuffing abilities), which is exactly what they are supposed to be about.

Again, try and get over your preconceptions of what a healer is in other games (and try to not assume that they’ll fail to make healing classes in this game different from healers in other games) and perhaps you’ll start to see that Sorceresses would fit the role perfectly as they are.


- Xurré

[Azrayne2.0]

Who said anything about it all needing to be about “support and healing and making people feel better”? Maybe you’re still thinking typical “healer” archetypes from other games (“and I heal, and I heal, and I heal”).

Dark magic is about doing damage in vile ways and debuffing (which I also consider “support”). And more than 10% of the spells Sorceresses have available to them (16.7% of their dark magic spells) have a healing component to them. And you know what the beauty is? It heal by, get this, doing damage.

So it seems to me that this would fit perfectly with Mythic’s stated goal of having ‘healers’ who are actually involved in the fight and do lots of damage as well (next to also healing a bit). They aren’t healers in the (MMO) traditional sense of the word, they just happen to be the ones with some healing ability. This doesn’t mean that they require “a total reversal of what the sorceress is supposed to be about”, quite the opposite as it requires them to be a class that lives on doing damage (and likely has a number of wicked debuffing abilities), which is exactly what they are supposed to be about.

Again, try and get over your preconceptions of what a healer is in other games (and try to not assume that they’ll fail to make healing classes in this game different from healers in other games) and perhaps you’ll start to see that Sorceresses would fit the role perfectly as they are.


- Xurré

A self-heal componant, which is hugely different. The point is that as soon as they're healing other players, they're diverting attention towards these players, their spells and abilities become focused around supporting other players, and they cease to be a DPS class and become a hybrid.

If you're going to make a class the healer archtype of their race then, like it or not, they WILL end up spending large portions of their time healing, at which point they cease to be a damage class and become a hybrid. There is absolutely nothing hybridized about the sorceress, as they currently stand within the lore. It would make as much sense as having the Magus as a healer (after all tzeentch is about change, who says he can't change someone so they're healed, right??) Hell, it would make even less sense.

You can talk about 'preconceptions from other games' all you want, but the fact is, when it comes down to it, 'somebody' is going to have to be keeping people alive, and that job is going to fall on whoever is selected as the healer class for their race. With the game set up as it currently is, there just isn't any way a class will be able to be both a competant healer and a competative, consistant DPSer, unless you want to fly in the face of balance.

So either they're going to have to twist the lore totally and turn what is essentially an entirely offensive character into a support class, or they'll have to do that to another character, or they'll have to create a new one. My money is on the third option, personally, but hey, all we can do is wait and see.

[Black Razor]

A self-heal componant, which is hugely different. The point is that as soon as they're healing other players, they're diverting attention towards these players, their spells and abilities become focused around supporting other players, and they cease to be a DPS class and become a hybrid.

If you're going to make a class the healer archtype of their race then, like it or not, they WILL end up spending large portions of their time healing, at which point they cease to be a damage class and become a hybrid. There is absolutely nothing hybridized about the sorceress, as they currently stand within the lore. It would make as much sense as having the Magus as a healer (after all tzeentch is about change, who says he can't change someone so they're healed, right??) Hell, it would make even less sense.

You can talk about 'preconceptions from other games' all you want, but the fact is, when it comes down to it, 'somebody' is going to have to be keeping people alive, and that job is going to fall on whoever is selected as the healer class for their race. With the game set up as it currently is, there just isn't any way a class will be able to be both a competant healer and a competative, consistant DPSer, unless you want to fly in the face of balance.

So either they're going to have to twist the lore totally and turn what is essentially an entirely offensive character into a support class, or they'll have to do that to another character, or they'll have to create a new one. My money is on the third option, personally, but hey, all we can do is wait and see.

All they have to do is tweak the drains by adding a 'and the casters group' to who it heals. That way when they cast there drain spells it heals them and there entire party for a small amount. Not the first time its been done in an MMO, and its still alot less off lore then coming up with some healing class specifically for the Dark Elves.

[Azrayne2.0]

All they have to do is tweak the drains by adding a 'and the casters group' to who it heals. That way when they cast there drain spells it heals them and there entire party for a small amount. Not the first time its been done in an MMO, and its still alot less off lore then coming up with some healing class specifically for the Dark Elves.

It's not that simple, nowhere near that simple. That kind of thing works for a tertiary healer who's main job is to top people up (SPriest in WoW), but it doesn't work for a class that's supposed to be a main healer. What happens when you need a sudden burst of healing, or need to focus on a specific target, or don't have a DPS target nearby, or any one of a million flaws with the system.

And like I said, their DPS would have to be significantly less than that of the ranged DPS class to give them worthwhile healing, otherwise an imbalance occurs, meaning they'd be, at best, a hybrid similar to the shaman.

[Xurré]

It's not that simple, nowhere near that simple. That kind of thing works for a tertiary healer who's main job is to top people up (SPriest in WoW), but it doesn't work for a class that's supposed to be a main healer. What happens when you need a sudden burst of healing, or need to focus on a specific target, or don't have a DPS target nearby, or any one of a million flaws with the system.
The way I've seen healing for Sorceresses (potentially) work is similar to Twilight Grasp (in CoX), though with an added damage component. What would happen is something like this:

You cast the spell at an enemy.
Enemy is damages.
The enemy's hitpoints ('soul') is 'pulled' towards you.
When it reaches you it radiates out from you, healing everyone standing in a pre-definaed distance from you.

And trust me, that's a very effective form of healing that doesn't require much attention at all; just stand near where the battle is and now and again glance at your team's health bars to see if you need to use it.

And like I said, their DPS would have to be significantly less than that of the ranged DPS class to give them worthwhile healing, otherwise an imbalance occurs, meaning they'd be, at best, a hybrid similar to the shaman.
Then so be it. If that's really the only way you can see it working, then apparently there isn't a choice. Because to do otherwise would mean that you have one less class (and have to invent a new one just for healing); would you really rather not see the Sorceress at all (or lose the Shade/Beastmaster whatever it would be for the ranged slot)?


- Xurré

[Black Razor]

It's not that simple, nowhere near that simple. That kind of thing works for a tertiary healer who's main job is to top people up (SPriest in WoW), but it doesn't work for a class that's supposed to be a main healer. What happens when you need a sudden burst of healing, or need to focus on a specific target, or don't have a DPS target nearby, or any one of a million flaws with the system.

And like I said, their DPS would have to be significantly less than that of the ranged DPS class to give them worthwhile healing, otherwise an imbalance occurs, meaning they'd be, at best, a hybrid similar to the shaman.

Remember the job of support classes in WAR isn't 'And I heal, and I heal, and I heal' .. everyone should be doing damage and going ape on the opponent. If the Sorceress is throwing multiple drain spells even if they don't individually do much .. it will add up.

The way I've seen healing for Sorceresses (potentially) work is similar to Twilight Grasp ... *snip* (in CoX)

Yep pretty much exactly what I was talking about (though I try not to reference other games hehe). The darkness power set in CoX is pretty much how I would envision the Dark Magic setup in Warhammer working. Lots of dots, damage spells w/ drain, etc. Which is oddly how it works in tabletop too.

[Kellaris]

Yeah I guess you're right, dark magic is all about support and healing and making people feel better right. You know what with all those healing spells and buffs the sorceress has access to in the TT lore...

I think You are still not getting the "support class" idea in WAR. It have been stated many, many times, that every class is going to deal damage. Designers hate supporters that spends most of their time supporting.
So they are making support classes in the such way, that supporters have tu hurt peole, and then maybe give some support.
No goblin Shaman or Sigmar Priest is going to spend most of their time healing. They have to hammer/nuke people, to make healing effective. This game is not about healing.
I cannot understand Why Dark Elf "support class" should be different. Especially if Druchii is most aggressive and offensive race in the game.
In my opinion Sorcerer with AOE debuffs, some nukes and drain life would be great, playable and drichii like. And maybe not the best support class in the game. Maybe he will not give You instance heal. But It will be exactly what drichii is supposed to be.

And still, shade with RXB (very fast fire rate) and some ambush/ precise fire skills can outshot him. I think Sorcerer can be more effective in AOE effects, while shade can concentrate fire and take out single target quicker.

[Nathar]

To those who say dark elf magic is all about hurting people based on the TT lores (death, shadow (which is more about support actually) and of course dark) should really look into the lores of tzeentch (I know zealots aren't sorcerers but it's still tzeenthian magic) and Gork/Mork magic. Also runes have no healing capability and I seriously doubt (though I don't know) that you'll find any actual healing spells in the spells of Sigmarian priests.

Simply because in TT healing is not useful. Most troops have 1 wound. Take 1 damage and you die. Try healing someone who dies on first hit!

They have spells that potentially heal themselves. This is easily turned into healing others. Just like others have had healing added.

Sorceress for support/ranged! Vote today and get free cookie bonus!

[Fear Death]

I'm sure sorceress is gona be just like all the other support classes.. they need to deal damage to heal efficiently.. thats what keeps support classes in WAR from being flat out healers.. it keeps it fun imo.

[Selendor]

By the way, one of the most common uses of Shades is to use them as caster and artillery killers. ;)

[ggchan]

QFT, you basically read my mind heheh. I am hoping for a strong DD caster with a few debuff spells...I really can not say anymore because Zoatibix covered it all.

~Edit~ Thought about it...and I figured I could say we need more Dark Elf Avatars :shock:

Ditto. Basically, thats the best and MOST realistic use of the dreaded Sorceress.

[Chouchou]

I'm pretty found of healing classes and I like what mythic try yo do with them. Although I prefer caster/healer to melee/healer. From what we know, the only healer I'd like to play for now is the goblin shaman since runepriest and warrior priest are both melee and that the zealot doesn't attract me much.

But if dark elf sorcerer is a lifetap based healer, then it'll definetly be my class ! I'm looking a healing class with an original gameplay and lifetap and drains suit me nicely.

[Azrayne2.0]

I'm pretty found of healing classes and I like what mythic try yo do with them. Although I prefer caster/healer to melee/healer. From what we know, the only healer I'd like to play for now is the goblin shaman since runepriest and warrior priest are both melee and that the zealot doesn't attract me much.

But if dark elf sorcerer is a lifetap based healer, then it'll definetly be my class ! I'm looking a healing class with an original gameplay and lifetap and drains suit me nicely.

Runepriests are casters, aren't they? I'm pretty sure they do their DPS with nukes, not melee :/

[Chouchou]

Runepriests are casters, aren't they? I'm pretty sure they do their DPS with nukes, not melee :/

oups... old infos... I will look at it more closely

(Beside that, Dwarf using "magic" and nuking didn't seem obvious to me :p)

[Gemini]

Runepriests are ranged units. As for the dwarf using magic thing, this quote explains it all.

“This is the las’ time I’m goin’ to say this – runes are NO’ magic! Magic is fer silly buggers in robes and poin’y ‘ats! Do you see a poin’y ‘at on me lad?”
– Grumhilde, Venerable Rune Sage

[Azrayne2.0]

Runepriests are ranged units. As for the dwarf using magic thing, this quote explains it all.

“This is the las’ time I’m goin’ to say this – runes are NO’ magic! Magic is fer silly buggers in robes and poin’y ‘ats! Do you see a poin’y ‘at on me lad?”
– Grumhilde, Venerable Rune Sage


So basically they're wizards in denial?

[Thoden Firehammer]

I want to see this class as the pure support caster for teh Dark Elves, but I sadly think it's going to be the Healer

[Nathar]

I want to see this class as the pure support caster for teh Dark Elves, but I sadly think it's going to be the Healer

What's the difference between pure support and being healer?

[Kerveth]

You cast the spell at an enemy.
Enemy is damages.
The enemy's hitpoints ('soul') is 'pulled' towards you.
When it reaches you it radiates out from you, healing everyone standing in a pre-definaed distance from you.


I like this idea, Especially if Sorceres/ss are Healer/Blaster as it all fits the same trend,
And you could still just blast away if you wanted to.

[Azrayne2.0]

I like this idea, Especially if Sorceres/ss are Healer/Blaster as it all fits the same trend,
And you could still just blast away if you wanted to.

It wouldn't work, a class that simply has a heal aura will never be able to be equal to classes that can control and direct their healing. What happens when you need to heal only a certain target, or need to choose between HOT's or a short heal or a fast heal, or there are no DPS targets within range? There are so many things wrong with that idea.

It makes for a great secondary healer, but there's no way a class like that would act as the primary healer for his race.

[Black Razor]

It wouldn't work, a class that simply has a heal aura will never be able to be equal to classes that can control and direct their healing. What happens when you need to heal only a certain target, or need to choose between HOT's or a short heal or a fast heal, or there are no DPS targets within range? There are so many things wrong with that idea.

It makes for a great secondary healer, but there's no way a class like that would act as the primary healer for his race.

Don't say it wouldn't work cause it can and does work .. I've played a Darkness Defender in CoX for about a year now and she has no problem keeping her entire group up... and thats precisely how they heal. The kind of healing you want isn't going to exist in WAR .. at least not if anything that has been released so far is an indication. Every single support class shown to date must do something else before they can heal. There wont be any healing on the spot anyways .. therefor a reflexive healer like described would certainly work. But theres other ways to do it as well that still sticks within the spirit of Dark Magic and yet allows for a direct single target heal. For example .. a spell that gives a percentage of my hit points to an ally .. drained from my own of course. Then all I need to do is cast a drain and get my own back. You seem to want a 'and I heal, and I heal' type caster .. and its been made clear... those simply wont exist in WAR.

[Azrayne2.0]

Don't say it wouldn't work cause it can and does work .. I've played a Darkness Defender in CoX for about a year now and she has no problem keeping her entire group up... and thats precisely how they heal. The kind of healing you want isn't going to exist in WAR .. at least not if anything that has been released so far is an indication. Every single support class shown to date must do something else before they can heal. There wont be any healing on the spot anyways .. therefor a reflexive healer like described would certainly work. But theres other ways to do it as well that still sticks within the spirit of Dark Magic and yet allows for a direct single target heal. For example .. a spell that gives a percentage of my hit points to an ally .. drained from my own of course. Then all I need to do is cast a drain and get my own back. You seem to want a 'and I heal, and I heal' type caster .. and its been made clear... those simply wont exist in WAR.

Wrong, all healers can heal reactively, however shaman/WP are penalized for doing so. Runepriest/Zealot, as far as I can gather, can heal fine without having to attack first.

I appreciate that Mythic are trying to break the mould with healers, but underneath it all it's still the same basic mechanics.

It's not a matter of what I do/don't want, I don't want to play a healer at all, so it doesn't bother me in the slightest, it just doesn't seem at all practical unless you totally pervert what the sorceress' magic is about in the first place.

[Xurré]

It's not a matter of what I do/don't want, I don't want to play a healer at all, so it doesn't bother me in the slightest, it just doesn't seem at all practical unless you totally pervert what the sorceress' magic is about in the first place.
And what is a Sorceress’ magic about then?

Because I don’t believe that it’s as simple as just doing as much damage as possible. That doesn’t sound like a Sorceress to me; that sounds like a Bright Wizard. Sorceresses are far more intricate and refined than that.

People have been saying that Dark Magic is all about doing damage, and perhaps that’s how a lot of their spells work in tabletop, but that’s not quite how I see it. Dark Magic isn’t “dark” because it does damage, it’s “dark” because it does unspeakably evil things to achieve a goal. It calls up dark forces from beyond to do what the Sorceress bids it do. It’s making pacts with evil entities to achieve something. Etc.

Along those lines the Sorceress’ brand of healing makes perfect sense. Someone needs healing, so you just rip someone’s soul out of their body? Just imagine James Brown without soul! I can even see them making deals with Nurgle to unleash a pestilence just to heal a papercut. :p

That is what, in my view, a Sorceress’ magic is about. Not just doing damage, but doing unspeakably evil things just to fulfill their own desires. And if their desires are to keep the dark elf army running for a bit longer so that they can take back Ulthuan, then what’s the problem that they’ll have to rip the souls out of a few Asur to do it?


[EDIT] What I'm saying is that what's important is the theme and not the effect.


- Xurré

[Eltair Shadowblade]

It wouldn't work, a class that simply has a heal aura will never be able to be equal to classes that can control and direct their healing. What happens when you need to heal only a certain target, or need to choose between HOT's or a short heal or a fast heal, or there are no DPS targets within range? There are so many things wrong with that idea.

It makes for a great secondary healer, but there's no way a class like that would act as the primary healer for his race.
every class can heal himself, so if the 'tank' needs a fast-heal, he can just heal himself.

problem solved;)

[Axxar]

The sorcerer won't be able to do high DPS as well as heal well, that wouldn't be balanced - this is pretty basic stuff. However, moderate damage as per the other healing careers would work. If the sorcerer -is- to heal, the healing will be as good as the other healing careers, otherwise it wouldn't be much of a healer! So either it's a moderate damage/healing hybrid like the other healing careers, or it's a ranged DPS. It's not both ranged DPS and healing.

[Ikego]

From what's i've read of the caster classes announced in this game so far, the only pure dps caster right now is the Bright Wizard. Every other caster has some secondary abilities they need to use to be most effective. The blaster/healer has already been done in this faction, it's called a shaman, and I'd be truly disappointed if they just created a DE version of it.

I'd love to see an extremely high burst damage caster, with virtually zero defense, a mirror to the Bright Wizard. If that's what they come up with, i'll definately roll one. If not, then i have some deciding to do.

Usually how classes are made between two different factions, is each has their mirror version class... or close to it. Runepriest/Shaman, Chosen/Knight of the Blazing Sun, Ironbreaker/Black Orc, etc etc. Currently there are no mirrors for Bright Wizards and Warrior Priests, so I'm expecting to see them in the DE race... but who knows

[Estebar]

Dhar is the most frightening and unwholesome of all Aethyric energy, for Dhar is black magic. Like its opposite, Qhaysh, Dhar is a blend of all the colours of magic, but where Qhaysh is creative and brimming with possibility, Dhar is entirely destructive and is the stealer of potential. It is entirely inward looking and self-serving. If Qhaysh could be considered the pure stuff of dreams, Dhar would be the raw stuff of nightmare.

Where Qhaysh can be seen as an unfragmented cooperative of all the colours of magic working together in perfect harmony, Dhar is the result of all the colours being crushed together to stagnate. None of the eight colours of magic retain any independent identity within Dhar, they are squashed together and left to go sour.

It remains unclear why dark magic forms, but where the winds of magic cease to blow and its colours sink into pools and pockets, dark magic begins a process similar in it way to fermentation. It is magical energy that has become trapped too long within the materium and has therefore lost its vitality and creativity. Indeed, if Dhar gathers long enough in any particular area, and is not agitated or used, it is known to grow ever denser, taking unto itself more and more temporal laws, until it solidifies into that exceedingly rare and dangerous substance that the scholars of the Empire have called warpstone.

Dhar could be seen as Aethyric energy that, instead of unlocking the potential within physical things and transmuting them into new forms and states, instead smothers them and breaks them down into their component parts. A magister might argue that although it is no more evil than Qhaysh is good (for both are blind forces and are aside to such value judgements), Dhar could be seen as something that is almost entirely bent towards deconstructing, suppressing and dominating physical things, where Qhaysh (and therefore its eight fragments) adds to, permeates and excites physical things.

It is for this reason that Dhar is drawn to those beings who seek ill for other beings or for the world at large. Although Dhar and Qhaysh are both elements of Chaos - and therefore catalysts of swirling entropy - Dhar promotes the entropy of endless cycles of destruction while Qhaysh promotes cycles of creation and adaptation, Dhar flows like sluggish tar, and any being it is drawn to will be slowly drowned in its black and sticky depths. This state of affairs means that Dhar is the most destructive of all Aethyric forces, one utilised by only the most cruel or power hungry spell-casters.

But the price of tapping into the energies of Dhar are high indeed, for not only is it just as hard to use and control as Qhaysh, but it is also far more likely to consume the one that uses it. Where Qhaysh is an energy that demands from a spell-caster subtlety, total tranquillity, and acute sensitivity if it is to be woven properly, Dhar must be wrestled into submission, requiring supreme strength of mind, a self-confidence that borders upon megalomania and an absolutism of will that only those humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to grasp.

Having said this, Sister Marie Duvallier of the Hospice at Frederheim (an expert in the diagnosis and treatment of physical and spiritual ailments) has assured me that if even the sanest and most balanced of people were exposed to this malign energy long enough, then rest assured, over time, exposure to its unwholesome energies undoubtedly affect the sanity of the user. This causes many adverse symptoms including (though not restricted to) hysteria, paranoia, violent mood swings, a dual personality or perhaps even all of these. Of all the mortal beings that use Dhar, only the druchii (or dark elves) seem to have any immunity to its adverse psychical effects. This is raw stuff from which dark magic is made. The most immediately effective use of its nature is, obviously, harnessing destruction in its purest form. However, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the Elves have studied magic longer than anyone, establishing institutions which are almost accepted as religious organisations (the White Tower, and the Nine Convents) because magic has been implemented into everyday Elf society to such a degree that the raw energy harnessed to create High or Dark magic has been bent and reshaped against the awesome willpower of the Elves to fit into a great many purposes.

We have to remember that necromancy, the practice by which unnatural life is created beyond death and the dead are forced into vigour by the willpower of the necromancer, is but a single aspect of the Dark Art taught to Sorceresses of Naggaroth. It was a captured Sorceress who was coerced into instructing Nagash himself in that unnatural sorcery using Dhar for a single purpose.

If Dhar can be acknowledged by Sorceresses as mean by which rotting corpses can be brought into animation, I'm sure the ever-magically-resourceful Elves can find means by which Dhar can be wrestled into submission, bent to their will, and forced to knit wounds together (thereby challenging the natural way of things by forcefully reversing the process by which flesh is damaged) while feeding Dhar with the life of some nearby individuals to keep it from swallowing the Sorceress snd her party whole.

[Kerveth]

It wouldn't work, a class that simply has a heal aura will never be able to be equal to classes that can control and direct their healing. What happens when you need to heal only a certain target, or need to choose between HOT's or a short heal or a fast heal, or there are no DPS targets within range? There are so many things wrong with that idea.

It makes for a great secondary healer, but there's no way a class like that would act as the primary healer for his race.

Yeah, I see what you mean, There isn't really any other class that could take the spot of primary healer, So I reckon It'll be the Sorcerer, But it would still be cool to have some kind of damage abilitiy.

[Azrayne2.0]

Yeah, I see what you mean, There isn't really any other class that could take the spot of primary healer, So I reckon It'll be the Sorcerer, But it would still be cool to have some kind of damage abilitiy.

By that logic Magus should have ended up as Chaos' healer, and we know how that worked out. I'm personally expecting something similar here. We'll see though.

[Xurré]

By that logic Magus should have ended up as Chaos' healer, and we know how that worked out. I'm personally expecting something similar here. We'll see though.
Once again, the difference there is that (Tzeentchian) Chaos simply didn't have enough human units to turn into classes. They were short and had to create something new anyway. Dark Elves on the other hand have so many potentially interesting classes that it would really, really suck if instead of trying to make those work they'd just went and did their own thing.

And Sorceresses work in the support/hybrid/healing/whatever role (particularly if the ranged dps role is a little less purely ranged). Not everyone might want to see it like that, I realize, but it seem to me a hundred times better than them inventing some kind of dark elf healer class (which, btw, wouldn't be much less problematic than Sorceresses since dark elves in general don't do healing).

No, a Sorceress works perfectly fine in the role as I see it.


- Xurré

[Pieter Klass]

I don't know if this has been said so sorry for toes stepped on, apart from the rune priest all the other healers have gods the word sorcerer invokes an elf inforcing his will on the universe not a divine sycophant so BLASTING with DEBUFFS

[Estebar]

I don't know if this has been said so sorry for toes stepped on, apart from the rune priest all the other healers have gods the word sorcerer invokes an elf inforcing his will on the universe not a divine sycophant so BLASTING with DEBUFFS

I used to think the same way as you. Every other healer so far has been a "Priest-type" right?

Well, technically, the Sorceresses do still count as "Priestess-types" seeing as they all come from the Nine Convents of Sorceresses.

CONVENT (con·vent) /ˈkɒnvɛnt, -vənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-vent, -vuhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a community of persons devoted to religious life under a superior.
2. a society or association of monks, friars, or nuns: now usually used of a society of nuns.
3. the building or buildings occupied by such a society; a monastery or nunnery.
4. Obsolete. assembly; meeting.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Origin: 1175–1225; < ML conventus; L: assembly, coming together, equiv. to conven(īre) (see convene) + -tus suffix of v. action; r. ME covent < AF < ML, as above]

—Synonyms 1. abbey, priory. 3. cloister. Also, most of the tabletop Dark magic spells derive their energies from a higher power, usually a daemon, just as priests do.

e.g.
CHILLWIND
- Calling upon the coldness of Nagaelythe of the Utter dark, the Dark Elf unleashes a freezing wind against their enemies.

DOOMBOLT
- As the invocation is spoken, the otherwordly beast known as Kharaidon unleashes a bolt of pure darkness upon the Dark Elves' adversaries.

SOUL STEALER
- The daemon-crawler Anchan-Rogar reaches out from his domain and plucks the souls from the enemy.

DOMINION
- Calling upon Lamehk the Slavemaster of the Third Hell, the Wizard takes control of the foe's thoughts.

Finally, after going through their trials and tests of faith during initiation, the Sorceresses are married to the Witch King during their induction as proof of their loyalty, just as nuns are married to God, and Witch Elves are married to Khaine.

[Yavvy]

Finally, after going through their trials and tests of faith during initiation, the Sorceresses are married to the Witch King during their induction as proof of their loyalty, just as nuns are married to God, and Witch Elves are married to Khaine.And Sorcerors, male, are in the game? :rolleyes:

[Nathar]

And Sorcerors, male, are in the game? :rolleyes:

What? We don't deny anyone their rights!

Anyway, that part is pretty new (latest edition) I believe, following the "only sorcereesses" rule addition.

[Estebar]

And Sorcerors, male, are in the game? :rolleyes:

I imagine they'll use a less-aggressive, androgynous name like "Seer" for both male and female Sorcerers, seeing as how they use it in the Game Backstory:

Meanwhile, in the Dark Elf kingdom of Naggaroth, the Seers of Ghrond continue their unceasing study of the distant Chaos Maelstrom. Suddenly, there is a marked shift in the nebulous swirls of color and shape. The Seers watch intently, studying the ominous new patterns. When they are confident of their readings, the Seers dispatch a messenger south to Naggarond aboard a swift Black Pegasus. Great events are about to unfold in the world, and the Witch King must be informed. "Seer" sounds slightly more oracle or priest-like, and doesn't seem to imply nuking with dark magic quite as much as "Sorcerer". It sounds more passive and support-like, a "Seer" casting portents and supportive spells with dark magic.

[Nathar]

I imagine they'll use a less-aggressive, androgynous name like "Seer" for both male and female Sorcerers, seeing as how they use it in the Game Backstory:

"Seer" sounds slightly more oracle or priest-like, and doesn't seem to imply nuking with dark magic quite as much as "Sorcerer". It sounds more passive and support-like, a "Seer" casting portents and supportive spells with dark magic.

I like what you just showed. Makes it less dps-like and less gender-restrictive-sounding. Also Seers of Ghrond are cool. Like, they're for definately cool!

[Xurré]

I imagine they'll use a less-aggressive, androgynous name like "Seer" for both male and female Sorcerers, seeing as how they use it in the Game Backstory:

"Seer" sounds slightly more oracle or priest-like, and doesn't seem to imply nuking with dark magic quite as much as "Sorcerer". It sounds more passive and support-like, a "Seer" casting portents and supportive spells with dark magic.
Interesting thought...

I'm not convinced though, but definitely on interesting idea.


- Xurré

[V'raneth]

Basically you're suggesting they don't have Sorcerers in the game.

[Selendor]

I'd like to see the Sorceress as a support character, probably focusing on debuffs. Yes, they're not healers in the TT game, but then again who is? Every Dark Elf worth their salt cares more about hurting others than they care about healing. But the Sorceress actually has healing ability, so they'd be a decent fit.

Admittedly, the reason I say this is because I think having a non-caster in the ranged DPS slot gives more flavor to the race. Repeater crossbows rock!

[Black Razor]

I imagine they'll use a less-aggressive, androgynous name like "Seer" for both male and female Sorcerers, seeing as how they use it in the Game Backstory:

"Seer" sounds slightly more oracle or priest-like, and doesn't seem to imply nuking with dark magic quite as much as "Sorcerer". It sounds more passive and support-like, a "Seer" casting portents and supportive spells with dark magic.

I wouldn't bet on it actually. likely it will simply be Sorcerer or Sorceress depending on the gender you pick on your character sheet. The problem with changing the name is you then make an association to other caster classes in the game. If they named it Seer for instance what then if they add Skaven at a later date would they call there casters? When you say Seer in association with Warhammer most people familiar with the material usually think of Grey Seers .. the Skaven caster priests. Changing it to something not typically associated with the Dark Elves would muddy up the lore quite alot. Also keep in mind in lore its taboo for males to use magic .. they certainly do .. its just forbidden in society .. so making a gender ambiguous title for the dark elves to use would again seem very contradictory to the story. All the classes they have changed the name of or given a unique name for like Choppa and Zealot don't have units with similar names in other armies .. and so are very distinct.. which fits with there giving each class a unique signature of its own.

[Ikego]

There's not going to be a third ranged healer for Destruction, i'd bet my first born on it. It comes down to simple logic. There's already zealots and shaman (caster/healers), expect a melee support class and heavy damage only caster in the DE race. Mythic would have to be immeasurably stupid to not put in any melee healer for the entire Destruction faction.

[Estebar]

Basically you're suggesting they don't have Sorcerers in the game. ...no, that's not what I'm suggesting at all. Sorcerers and Sorceresses should be in-game, but in order that both genders be included under one career name, I simply suggested giving them the name "Seer" because it's already a term used in the Game Backstory (thereby already being a part of WAR lore) and it can be used for both male and female Dark Elf casters.

I wouldn't bet on it actually. likely it will simply be Sorcerer or Sorceress depending on the gender you pick on your character sheet. They didn't make an alternative career name for the Runepriestess, or the Warrior Priestess, or the Witch Huntress, or the Bright Witch. Perhaps it's because these are all forgivable because it is still acceptable for females to be classed under dominant male categorisation for the sake of equality, such as how now it is considered more politically correct to call both genders of the same occupation "actors" instead of "actors" for males and "actresses" for females of the same gender. However, with regards to Dark Elf casters, Sorceresses are considered the dominant gender in Dark Elf casters, but it's unlikely they'll allow male casters to be classed as Sorceresses. There lies the problem. I really can't see them making a clear distinction between Sorcerer and Sorceress depending on the gender of the character; that would be a headache for things like class descriptions etc. If referring to both using one word, you'd expect them to use Sorcerer, but that would put the lore-appropriate Sorceresses in the back seat. There lies the problem, and that's why I figured they'd use a different androgynous name, just as they did with the Magus.

The problem with changing the name is you then make an association to other caster classes in the game. If they named it Seer for instance what then if they add Skaven at a later date would they call there casters? "Horned Prophet" maybe? Come to think of it, would they include them at all? Surely including Grey Seers would bump out one of the four great Skaven Clans: Skryre, Moulder, Pestilens and Eshin? Might as well keep them out entirely. Destruction will have enough purely destructive casters and healer casters already, and Skaven casting will be represented in a more unique way by a Warlock Engineer from Clan Skryre. But hang on, they used the term "Engineer" for one of the Dwarf classes! Why did they do that? It could've been used for an Empire class, or a Skaven class. Ah well, they'll just have to work around it...with a different name.

Changing it to something not typically associated with the Dark Elves would muddy up the lore quite alot. Not if they've already used it in the Dark Elf Game Backstory which, as I've said, brings the term "Seer" into WAR Dark Elf lore as a term for magic-using Dark Elves of non-specific gender.

Also keep in mind in lore its taboo for males to use magic .. they certainly do .. its just forbidden in society .. so making a gender ambiguous title for the dark elves to use would again seem very contradictory to the story. Seeing as male Sorcerers are going to be just as accepted by other Dark Elves as Sorceresses, able to walk around talking to nobles and officials and assassins without fear of persecution (there will be no distinction between the genders of Dark Elf casters) I doubt this will be a problem and, in fact, using a gender ambigious title in exception from the conventional title of "Sorceress" associated with the Nine Convents might make things easier with keeping things loyal to the story without going against the Dark Elf lore of persecuted male casters.

All the classes they have changed the name of or given a unique name for like Choppa and Zealot don't have units with similar names in other armies .. and so are very distinct.. which fits with there giving each class a unique signature of its own. The Magus could have easily been classed as a Chaos Sorcerer. It's possible that they might've decided to reserve the career name "Sorcerer" for the Dark Elves, but, aside from the reasons I've listed above, they could've just as easily decided that the name was too generic and preferred something with a little more character to it, dropping "Sorcerer(ess)" completely.

[Estebar]

There's not going to be a third ranged healer for Destruction, i'd bet my first born on it. It comes down to simple logic. There's already zealots and shaman (caster/healers), expect a melee support class and heavy damage only caster in the DE race. Mythic would have to be immeasurably stupid to not put in any melee healer for the entire Destruction faction. Well that would leave us with a nuke-heavy Sorceress (plausible, though somewhat one-dimensional for an Elf) as the heavy damage only caster, and either a rejuvenating-blood-spattering blood-magic Witch Elf (unpopular) or a Beastmaster with medical experience in bandages, potions and lotions (also unpopular) as the melee support class. Unless they create something new, which is doubly unpopular.

Mythic runs the risk of seeming "immeasurably stupid" to somebody no matter which way they go. :(

[V'raneth]

...no, that's not what I'm suggesting at all. Sorcerers and Sorceresses should be in-game, but in order that both genders be included under one career name, I simply suggested giving them the name "Seer" because it's already a term used in the Game Backstory (thereby already being a part of WAR lore) and it can be used for both male and female Dark Elf casters. You've suggested a little more than that.

"Seer" sounds slightly more oracle or priest-like, and doesn't seem to imply nuking with dark magic quite as much as "Sorcerer". It sounds more passive and support-like, a "Seer" casting portents and supportive spells with dark magic. If you don't intend to capitalize on that freedom to be more "passive and support-like", then what is the purpose of changing the name? I believe you're not only suggesting changing the name but also the focus of the career. If neither the name nor the focus fit, how is it a Sorcerer?

particularly if the ranged dps role is a little less purely ranged So far as my understanding of this game's design philosophy goes, that's simply not an option. The Ranged DPS class must be the absolute best Ranged DPS'er for that army, and equal to all the other Ranged DPS'ers from the others.

[Xurré]

Well that would leave us with a nuke-heavy Sorceress (plausible, though somewhat one-dimensional for an Elf) as the heavy damage only caster, and either a rejuvenating-blood-spattering blood-magic Witch Elf (unpopular) or a Beastmaster with medical experience in bandages, potions and lotions (also unpopular) as the melee support class.
Don't forget Corsairs with seaweed bandages and driftwood splints. ;)


So far as my understanding of this game's design philosophy goes, that's simply not an option. The Ranged DPS class must be the absolute best Ranged DPS'er for that army, and equal to all the other Ranged DPS'ers from the others.
I'm not so much referring to dps with that and more to 'ranged'... as in being a little less shoot-y. More the dynamic of the Squig Herder/Goblin Shaman than the Warrior Priest/Bright Wizard.

I think it's important to ensure that things don't become too ranged-focused; and if you have a Sorceress as support and a Shade as ranged then you've got two classes who (it would appear) both would prefer to stay as far away from melee combat as possible.

I hope that makes sense.


- Xurré

[Estebar]

If you don't intend to capitalize on that freedom to be more "passive and support-like", then what is the purpose of changing the name? I believe you're not only suggesting changing the name but also the focus of the career. If neither the name nor the focus fit, how is it a Sorcerer? You're twisting my words. I said Seer sounds more passive and support-like. With "Seer" a Sorcerer sounds as if he has the capacity to cast portents and supportive spells with dark magic, but I never said that that would be his only talent. It would simply help him fit into the Support role a little easier, and handle the gender problem a little better than having to differentiate between Sorcerer and Sorceress. Those were my reasons for wanting to change the name. I've never suggested that a "Seer" be without balefire nukes, and daemonic debuffs, but as the Support/Healer role, they need have a focus elsewhere.

I think you're boxing the Sorceress into a caster role which is way too specific. If the Sorceress was all about blasting things with magic, she'd be no better than a Bright Wizard. Maybe you're basing your opinion on a tabletop Sorceress with six dark magic spells, but according to lore, Sorceresses have been known to summon minor daemons, read the future, pilot Black Arks, and according to the Warhammer Online site, scry the "nebulous swirls of color and shape" in "the Chaos Maelstrom" among many other things. As I've said before, the Elves have toyed with magic long enough to have bent and shaped it into a variety of tools to suit their purposes.

In Dark Elf lore, I have seen Sorceresses being called "Hag", "Crone", "Witch" and now, according to the Dark Elf Game Backstory on the Warhammer Online site, "Seer". There shouldn't be a problem with calling them so, as it's already involved in their lore and used as a term for Dark Elf students of magic of no particular gender.

[Zoatibix]

I'd just go with Sorcerer.

In game NPCs and those freaky Role Playing folks can refer to a female Sorcerer as a Sorceress.

Seer has always struck me as an odd title for a battlemage. Yes, I have heard of Farseers but their magic is more towards seeing and tampering with fate and the future, rather than hurling raw dark energy at the enemy while cackling gleefully with hatefilled malice.

[Estebar]

I'd just go with Sorcerer.

In game NPCs and those freaky Role Playing folks can refer to a female Sorcerer as a Sorceress. But it's the Sorceresses who are the predominant ones. Morathi, the Hag Queen, summons forth the most powerful Sorceresses from the Convents and trains them to lead the armies of the Dark Elves.

Seer has always struck me as an odd title for a battlemage. Battlemage has always struck me as an odd title for a healer. ;) As I've said, a Battlemage would imply a mage entirely focused on battle magic, hurling offensive forces of energy to damage the opponent, like the Bright Wizard. The Sorceress is a little more multi-purpose than that. She needs to do more than "hurl raw dark energy at the enemy while cackling gleefully with hatefilled malice" as otherwise Elf magic will be no better than Human magic.

[Xurré]

If they name Sorcerers "Seer" then I want the female version to be named "Seeress". :p

Seriously though, it's not that hard to include a gender-based switch for the name of a class. Just requires a string token that's replaced by whatever the gender version for the character is.


- Xurré

[Estebar]

Fine. *grumble*

[Selendor]

You've suggested a little more than that.

If you don't intend to capitalize on that freedom to be more "passive and support-like", then what is the purpose of changing the name? I believe you're not only suggesting changing the name but also the focus of the career. If neither the name nor the focus fit, how is it a Sorcerer?

It's not changing the focus of the career if you accept them as a support career and not a one-dimensional nuker. The name fits because they're refered to that way in the lore, the focus fits because that's the kind of magic they focus on. Debilitating, soul-sapping, evil magic.

I think it's important to ensure that things don't become too ranged-focused; and if you have a Sorceress as support and a Shade as ranged then you've got two classes who (it would appear) both would prefer to stay as far away from melee combat as possible.

Who's to say it's not equally important to make sure things don't become too melee focused? As I said before, the Dwarfs and Greenskins are an interesting pairing because they're not at all shooty, and their ranged classes reflect that. Squig Herders are a pet class first and foremost - not an archer class. Engineers are short-range DPSers that are as effective in close combat as they are at range, per their career description. Honestly, all 4 Dwarf careers can be considered close combat.

Empire and Chaos is pretty straight forward. Your ranged DPSers are just that - ranged. However, you've still got a melee healer.

It seems to me that at this point there's far more melee in the game than there is ranged. What better way to balance this out than with the Elf pairing, which involves two races known for their skill in magic and ballistics?

I've fought against careers like Cold One Knights and Beastmasters for a very simple, opinion-influenced reason. It's reliance on other tools other than your own martial ability. If your favored classes were in - Cold One Knight, Witch Elf, Sorceress, and Beastmaster - only the Witch Elf would be representing an Elf capable of standing toe to toe with a Chaos Chosen or a Dwarf Ironbreaker or an Empire Warrior Priest. The Beastmaster's strength is primarily based on his pets, the Sorceress relies on her magic, and the Cold One Knight is somewhat gimped without the aid of a 2 ton carnivorous poisonous lizard. :-P

Now, I like Beastmasters and Cold One Knights and all of that, but for the reasons above, I'd prefer some "fighter" types. Black Guards. Shades. People that can fight against the best of warriors based solely on their martial prowess and cunning, come out on top, rip their skin off and wear it as a cloak. :-P

But I've gone off topic. :D

[Xurré]

Who's to say it's not equally important to make sure things don't become too melee focused?
Don't ask me for a quote (it was ages ago that I read it), but I seem to recall Mythic saying something along the lines of wanting to limit how ranged the game becomes. I think they want to prevent the situation where two armies stand across from each other just shooting and want most characters to be involved in head-to-head melee combat.


I've fought against careers like Cold One Knights and Beastmasters for a very simple, opinion-influenced reason. It's reliance on other tools other than your own martial ability. If your favored classes were in - Cold One Knight, Witch Elf, Sorceress, and Beastmaster - only the Witch Elf would be representing an Elf capable of standing toe to toe with a Chaos Chosen or a Dwarf Ironbreaker or an Empire Warrior Priest. The Beastmaster's strength is primarily based on his pets, the Sorceress relies on her magic, and the Cold One Knight is somewhat gimped without the aid of a 2 ton carnivorous poisonous lizard. :-P
I've always believed that the Cold One Knight/Dread Knight would rely mostly on their own martial ability; I see the importance more on the 'knight' side than the 'cold one' side (and hence why I've been using the name 'Dread Knight' instead). The cold one would more be how they'd handle mounted combat, and then still rely a lot on their own martial skill.

That said, I have in the past weeks adjusted my opinion and now believe that the Black Guard is more likely.


- Xurré

[Axxar]

Well since there won't be any more mounted careers it would be silly to have a cold one knight when he couldn't fight from his mount.

[Rizal]

The sorceror/es should be a straight up damage dealer. Whether through nukes, dots, drains whatever. I just wanna see some big damage from these guys. I do NOT want to see them as healers tho for one big reason. Destruction has enough "squishy" healer types. I dont think the sorceror has very heavy armor (seeing as some units in the table top tend to be suffering from wardrobe malfunctions), so seeing them in the front line is propably a no no. I agree with previous posts claiming that there arent any DE classes that can compete with the sorceror's ranged damage. There is one class in particular that I can see as a healer/melee type for the DE (which destruction does need)...but Im gonna save that for another thread.

[Railith]

I hope that this would be a straight up DPS machine because the other ranged dps on destruction are a pet class and a dotter.

[Nathar]

I hope that this would be a straight up DPS machine because the other ranged dps on destruction are a pet class and a dotter.

Magus a dotter? I might've missed something but what do you base that on? It has a huge potential from a lore-standpoint anyhow.

Personally I prefer something else, but I respect your opinion.

[Railith]

Magus a dotter? I might've missed something but what do you base that on? It has a huge potential from a lore-standpoint anyhow.

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14760
A lot of the Magus spells have debuff and dot effects. There is some damage spells of course, but I'd rather deal super heavy damage then moderate damage with a disarm.

[Nathar]

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14760
A lot of the Magus spells have debuff and dot effects. There is some damage spells of course, but I'd rather deal super heavy damage then moderate damage with a disarm.

Fair enough but I assure you a character with little but nuking will get terrible boring in the long run. All they can vary then is casting speed, damage and cost. Doesn't allow for many spells. I doubt there'll be anything with almost only that.

[Estebar]

Oooo oooo, one big example of the potency of healing amongst Dark Elf sorceresses is, of course, Morathi nursing Malekith back to health after stepping into the Flames of Asuryan immolated him.

It's very likely she used more than a little TLC and T&A to help her son recover.

[Salekith]

Why play a ranged DPS class if the support class is going to outdamage you anyway, though? (Assuming Sorceress=support)

And if Sorceresses 'are' ranged DPS, who would you stick in the support role? (Assuming Sorceress=range)

And if you don't care for the Orc/Chosen analogy, how about a Goblin Shaman that can go toe to toe with an Elf mage? Or a Marauder outdamaging a Chosen, for that matter. Certain things have to be done in the name of balance.

Just something to think about on both sides.

goblin shamans use totaly different magic they dont draw upon winds of magic like elves and humans do, instead their magic is from the WAAAGH more orcs and bigger WAAGH stronger they get in the slayer books there was a moment where goblin shaman was pretty damn powerfull when gotrek and felix were going to some strange temple with TECLIS, as i remember good and even for Teclis, whos equal with Witch King Malekith than that goblin shaman proven hard to defeat

[Salekith]

Oooo oooo, one big example of the potency of healing amongst Dark Elf sorceresses is, of course, Morathi nursing Malekith back to health after stepping into the Flames of Asuryan immolated him.

It's very likely she used more than a little TLC and T&A to help her son recover.

his mother is also his lover, in books etc the way they speak to each other and lay together in bed etc, u can easly say it, but than again if he was born when she was like 200 years old and now she is 6200 ad he is for example 6000 its not a big deal :>, i think 6000 because they talk about past as of 5000 years+ and still they lived than for quite a long time

[Joeydevil]

To be honest I thought of the Priest in WoW. Fully capable of dishing out some damage but also capable of healing well.

[Tiervexx]

It wouldn't work, a class that simply has a heal aura will never be able to be equal to classes that can control and direct their healing. What happens when you need to heal only a certain target, or need to choose between HOT's or a short heal or a fast heal, or there are no DPS targets within range? There are so many things wrong with that idea.

It makes for a great secondary healer, but there's no way a class like that would act as the primary healer for his race.

Yeah...but to only have indirect healing fits in with the lore of them better...Dark magic is not healing...

The aura could direct itself, if only one person in it is very injured.

[Azrayne2.0]

Ah well, all will be revealed in less than 2 weeks...

[Aaronthethird]

To everyone who doesn't want the Sorc to be the DE support class, if not them, then what class would you make the support class? There has to be one, that is 100% guaranteed. So if not the Sorcerer, then who would fit that role? I have a hard time thinking of anyone else.

Personally, I'd like to see a Sorc be a Nuker/Support/Healer who uses life draining spells for healing and is able to debuff enemies and cast some decent damage spells. I would definitely consider playing that class over my current candidate, the Warrior Priest, if for no other reason than to help balance out population.

[Tiervexx]

To everyone who doesn't want the Sorc to be the DE support class, if not them, then what class would you make the support class? There has to be one, that is 100% guaranteed. So if not the Sorcerer, then who would fit that role? I have a hard time thinking of anyone else.

Personally, I'd like to see a Sorc be a Nuker/Support/Healer who uses life draining spells for healing and is able to debuff enemies and cast some decent damage spells. I would definitely consider playing that class over my current candidate, the Warrior Priest, if for no other reason than to help balance out population.

Dark magic does include a life drain spell so this would be acceptable.

[Azrayne2.0]

To everyone who doesn't want the Sorc to be the DE support class, if not them, then what class would you make the support class? There has to be one, that is 100% guaranteed. So if not the Sorcerer, then who would fit that role? I have a hard time thinking of anyone else.

Personally, I'd like to see a Sorc be a Nuker/Support/Healer who uses life draining spells for healing and is able to debuff enemies and cast some decent damage spells. I would definitely consider playing that class over my current candidate, the Warrior Priest, if for no other reason than to help balance out population.

They could easily just pull another class out of their to do it, aka Chaos.

[Syr]

Magus looks like the chaos uber-nuker so I'd have to guess something hybrid or curse/CC/lifetap magic.

[Syr]

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14760
A lot of the Magus spells have debuff and dot effects. There is some damage spells of course, but I'd rather deal super heavy damage then moderate damage with a disarm.

I believe the debuffs are secondary effects and utility. Most of it's spells are geared towards either a) offense casting for damage + extra effects, or b) survival. It looks like a nuker to me, slightly less damage than bright wiz but with more defense and with effects to compensate. It has GTAE, AE, single target nuke (red fire), damage boost buff, and ultimately the skills show its purpose is nuking down the enemy. I can't imagine a stat debuff taking a primary role over that. Wizard spells might burn the target but that doesn't make it any less of a nuker, probably same for the magus ;) Late in the wizard gameplay video 2 magus nuke it down pretty fast then float by on their discs.

[The Masked Prince]

blaster only

[Mortissia]

I'm going to lay out the most important things to think about on this subject. Note: I am NOT a TT expert. I'm just trying to think of this logically.

(A) All WAR factions get a support role. That role includes healing support.
(B) No TT DE class fits (A) as is (or so I'm reading).
(C) Mythic must (1) Alter an existing TT class to fill this role or (2) Make a new class up.
(D) We are not going to get a primary ranged DPS that is also main support (balance issue).

So if Sorceress is primary ranged DPS what class can fill the support role. It could be either ranged or melee. If Sorceress is ranged support then that leaves us a requirement for a primary ranged class.

[Xurré]

I'm going to lay out the most important things to think about on this subject. Note: I am NOT a TT expert. I'm just trying to think of this logically.

(A) All WAR factions get a support role. That role includes healing support.
(B) No TT DE class fits (A) as is (or so I'm reading).
(C) Mythic must (1) Alter an existing TT class to fill this role or (2) Make a new class up.
(D) We are not going to get a primary ranged DPS that is also main support (balance issue).

So if Sorceress is primary ranged DPS what class can fill the support role. It could be either ranged or melee. If Sorceress is ranged support then that leaves us a requirement for a primary ranged class.
The problem is that in TT there is no clear division in the four roles that the MMO has. Various TT units could qualify for various roles (like some have argued Executioners could both be the tank or the melee dps). TT units do not have a direct role as such.

So a fair bit of the discussion revolves around B: does the Sorceress fit in the support role?

Some of us have been saying that, yes she does. This is because in WAR no career is going to be a pure healer in the same sense that other MMOs tend to do it; whatever the support role is going to be it’s also going to be involved in the combat directly.

Since the Sorceress, in TT, already has two healing spells (both of which working on the concept of stealing souls) that would make a great healing ability in the arsenal of a Sorceress’ spells. She’d do a fair bit of ranged damage, perhaps not quite at strongly as the ranged role and perhaps with a bit less utility, but she’d have that still. And she’d also have various other support abilities like debuffing and such.

Sorceresses are also manipulative and controlling… so in my view it would make sense for them to stand back a bit more and have more overview of what’s going on, giving aid in various forms (damage, debuff or heal) where needed. Thus I can easily see Sorceresses in a support role calling the shots in the group.


As for the other options for the roles… people generally seem to mention the following options.

For support the other options are either a Beastmaster (reasoning something like: if they can care for beasts then they can care for the troops) or a Witch Elf (reasoning that a priestess of murder can heal by spraying blood around). Neither option makes any sense at all in the lore or in the TT rules as far as I can see it, so I don’t really consider either of them valid options.

For ranged the other options are either Beastmaster again (reasoning that the Beastmaster could be ranged in a similar way as a Squig Herder, just give him a repeating crossbow and you’re set) or a Shade (which is actually a very strong candidate for the range role since they’re the repeater crossbow experts among the dark elves in the lore and TT rules). Both options make a lot of sense and thus it seems to make a lot of sense to use either of them for this role and the Sorceress for the support role.

Note that another option would be to invent a new class for a role (generally people suggest for the support role here), though considering that there’s already so many interesting and great units which would work well for the dark elves that would be, by far, the least desirable choice as it’s only likely to upset people and make everyone unhappy.


As such I maintain, Sorceress is not just the best option for support, it’s really the only option for support.


- Xurré

[The Masked Prince]

I'm going to lay out the most important things to think about on this subject. Note: I am NOT a TT expert. I'm just trying to think of this logically.

(A) All WAR factions get a support role. That role includes healing support.
(B) No TT DE class fits (A) as is (or so I'm reading).
(C) Mythic must (1) Alter an existing TT class to fill this role or (2) Make a new class up.
(D) We are not going to get a primary ranged DPS that is also main support (balance issue).

So if Sorceress is primary ranged DPS what class can fill the support role. It could be either ranged or melee. If Sorceress is ranged support then that leaves us a requirement for a primary ranged class.

Good analysis, and I'd say: Witch elves as a support class (ahh Xurré is gonna kill me!:o).

Why?
because from a balance point of view they may want to give destruction a mele support class.
So far destruction has absolutely 0 class like this, whereas order has one: the warrior priest.
Would be lame to have again an hyrbid blast/heal class

Witch elves are the servant of Khain, gof of murder, in warhammer battle they could buff with the cauldron of blood, and rejunevate themselves into the blood of their enemies.

It could be some sort of witch elf, with maybe a more appropriate name for this support role.
Sound cool a class that can buff and heal the more blood is pread around them(the more enemies take damages) or the more enemies are killed(free heal for that for exemple).

Well I don't want to be off topic, but I think it can explain an only baster role for the sorcerer.

[Xurré]

Good analysis, and I'd say: Witch elves as a support class (ahh Xurré is gonna kill me!:o).

Why?
because from a balance point of view they may want to give destruction a mele support class.
So far destruction has absolutely 0 class like this, whereas order has one: the warrior priest.
Would be lame to have again an hyrbid blast/heal class
So, the high elves are going to get a mutating class then? Because Order currently doesn’t have one of those. Oh, and I guess that the dark elves are going to get a class with gadgets and bombs and guns too. Would be such a shame if only the dwarves had that. And I guess that melee healing is going to be done with runes too.

Also, the Sorceress would be an arcane healers, which is something destruction currently doesn’t have either.

And as I’ve said numerous times before... if it was indeed so important that they have a melee healer class on the destruction side (which I don’t for a second believe that it is) then they (w/sh/c)ould’ve made the Chaos Zealot this class. That way they wouldn’t have to go in the direct opposite direction with Witches by turning them from brides of murder into healers/support.

Witch elves are the servant of Khain, gof of murder, in warhammer battle they could buff with the cauldron of blood, and rejunevate themselves into the blood of their enemies.
Yes (though the rejuvenation doesn’t actually exist at all in the TT game; it’s just a lore background thing). And if there’s a Cauldron of Blood in the game (as artillery, probably a static part of the scenery) I’m sure its presence will radiate some buffs to the players near it.

That doesn’t mean that the existence of an artifact like that makes that Witches make sense as having healing abilities (which, again, have nothing to do with the Cauldron). Or maybe we should just have Corsairs that shoot bolts out of their eyes since they, after all, sail on the same Black Arks that hold the Reaper Bolt Throwers. :roll:

But you’re just repeating yourself over and over again without addressing any of the points I’ve raised against your ideas.

It could be some sort of witch elf, with maybe a more appropriate name for this support role.
Sound cool a class that can buff and heal the more blood is pread around them(the more enemies take damages) or the more enemies are killed(free heal for that for exemple).
So now we’re at inventing a new class again. As I said, there’s no need for that at all.

Well I don't want to be off topic, but I think it can explain an only baster role for the sorcerer.
Let’s all just hope then that the Sorcerer doesn’t get an “only blaster” role (which also so doesn’t make any sense for the Sorceress; she’s not a Bright Wizard). Luckily there’s no need for that since there’s several at least equally suited classes for the role.


- Xurré

[The Masked Prince]

And as I’ve said numerous times before... if it was indeed so important that they have a melee healer class on the destruction side (which I don’t for a second believe that it is) then they (w/sh/c)ould’ve made the Chaos Zealot this class. That way they wouldn’t have to go in the direct opposite direction with Witches by turning them from brides of murder into healers/support.

They didn't make the Zealot a mele healer, maybe because they alwready had the witch elf for that role...
Remember, ther certainely made all classes at the same time.


But you’re just repeating yourself over and over again without addressing any of the points I’ve raised against your ideas.

I just want to give my point of view to someone else,
and if I don't argue with every thing....well it's just because I'm not english myself, and even if it's not too hard, it's still not that easy and quick to answer you on every thing, I only tell the most relevant.
I'm sorry, but I don't really find all your arguments are.

This is a game, they take existent elements from both the warhammer battle game, from the lore,
then they mixed up everything with some creations of their own, still in relation with the lore.
You can't only count on what alwready existe.
Wich elves has a link with blood, it's still not important to some, but Mythic may insist on that.

That's my guess,
every arguments has been told,
we now just have too wait on our position one more week to know the truth.

If Mythic is reading this, they must be laughing to see how hot it's getting on Dark elves' board.

[Xurré]

They didn't make the Zealot a mele healer, maybe because they alwready had the witch elf for that role...
Remember, ther certainely made all classes at the same time.
Which is exactly what baffles me... why would they, when they decided on the classes, say "let's turn Witch Elves completely inside-out as we have this new class we're inventing that we don't want to turn into a melee healer. Yeah, let's screw the lore over good, I'm sure that's a good idea"?

It just doesn't make any sense at all. The only reason that I can see for them to do that is if they purposely want to change everything the class is about. And in that case I have to wonder why why they wouldn't just leave it out altogether as that makes a lot more sense.*


- Xurré


* Even though I'd still rather have them be in at all, but that's more because I really, really don't believe that they'd the idea of Witch Elves that badly.

[Estebar]

So, the high elves are going to get a mutating class then? Because Order currently doesn’t have one of those. Oh, and I guess that the dark elves are going to get a class with gadgets and bombs and guns too. Would be such a shame if only the dwarves had that. And I guess that melee healing is going to be done with runes too. Just a tad facetious, Xurré, don't you think? ;) Mutations, gadgets and runes are the specific gimmicks which give each career its individuality within categorisation as a melee or ranged preferred class. (Mutations = Melee, Gadgets, Bombs and Guns = Ranged, Runes = Melee/Ranged).

As much as I expect the Sorceress to be the Support Hybrid career, I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility of a Witch Elf Hag taking the position however fervently hardcore Hags might condemn the idea.

Witch Elves have often been perceived as Naggaroth's answer to the Empire's Warrior Priests. In WAR, the Warrior Priests are hardly push-over healers themselves, and rightly so given their own reputation in lore.

Sigmar is a warrior god, and to follow his creed is to live a life of battle. The Cult of Sigmar demands that its followers must fight all forms of evil with strength of arm and sword as well as faith, and many of its priests accompany the Empire's armies as they march to war.

I think people are getting too hung up on the idea of a Support Hybrid character having healing as their predominant trait. The Warrior Priest is primarily concerned with crushing the skulls of heretics under the weight of his warhammer. Sigmar grants him favour from the amount of skulls he ends up crushing, so he is first and foremost a skull-crushing "Warrior" swinging a hammer around, and secondly a "Priest" exacting miracles.

If Witch Elves are introduced as a class, it is more likely they'll be introduced in the shape of the Witch Hag (http://wargames.com.hk/oscommerce/images/res/Cauldron-of-Blood_large_150_117.gif) (mini on the left) rather than as a simple run-of-the-mill maiden Bride. It is the Hag, after all, who has access to all of the Temple's secret skills, such as the Dance of Doom, Touch of Death, Cry of War, the Witchbrew and a variety of poisons. Notice how in the miniature design, and the artwork (http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/darkelves/artwork/images/big-11.jpg), the Witch Elf carries of chalice full of either blessed blood from the Cauldron, poison, or Witchbrew. Notice, also, how the Cauldron is guarded by two maidens and a Hag who refrain from rushing straight into battle, but willingly hang back to guard their holy relic which inspires their sisters to fight on with continued divine frenzy. This shows that Witch Elves don't necessarily have to be designed purely for rushing straight into direct conflict. Someone has to anoint those Cold One Knights with blessed blood before they strap on their armour after all.

Dark Elves of noble birth are permitted to wear two swords at the waist, a testament to their higher status. Moreover they never dress themselves. This is the task of two squires who ritually attire the noble in his armour. The noble's chest is anointed with the symbol of Khaine in purified blood.

The Witch Elf Hag, the mistress of "midnight rites of blood sacrifice and magic" who surveys the rites of murder exacted by her maiden initiates, has a little more potential for a multi-purpose position than a plain-Jane melee-specific Witch Elf, and it's the special characters we'll be playing in WAR after all.

if it was indeed so important that they have a melee healer class on the destruction side (which I don’t for a second believe that it is) then they (w/sh/c)ould’ve made the Chaos Zealot this class. That way they wouldn’t have to go in the direct opposite direction with Witches by turning them from brides of murder into healers/support.

Why would they, when they decided on the classes, say "let's turn Witch Elves completely inside-out as we have this new class we're inventing that we don't want to turn into a melee healer. Yeah, let's screw the lore over good, I'm sure that's a good idea"?

Chaos is already pretty heavily melee-oriented as a whole, although that has more to do with Khorne's war tactics. I imagine they decided to keep the Zealot fighting from a range as it was better suited to Tzeentch's style of combat. The Marauder embodies close-ranged strength with more than enough potency to suit Tzeentch with wild, unpredictable mutations and warped Chaos Spawn-esque rampages. The sorcery-based rites of the cultist-like Zealot would be best exacted from afar. It is the Witch Elf Hags who would exact her rituals up close and personal in combat. Khaine-worship would dictate blood-frenzied Elves tearing up the enemy face-to-face. Most of the rituals require blood sacrifices anyway.

I'm not going to bother writing out potential game mechanics for the Witch Elf Hag; there have been enough suggestions made around these forums. However I will say that I wouldn't call it a complete contradiction to Witch Elves' nature for them to be introduced as a class which is primarily a frenzied throat-cutting melee specialists and secondly mistresses of toxins, tonics, and blood rituals which could either weaken, debilitate and downright cripple, or stir the blood, sharpen the senses and keep Khaine's followers from death in order that more blood can be spilled in his name. It is said, after all, that "Khaine is jealous of his elder brother Morr's rulership over the world of the dead. Khaine steals the souls of those unprotected by a cult and those murdered or sacrificed in his name." So, I imagine Khaine would appreciate any means by which followers could be prevented from meeting their timely death. The Cauldron is the most extreme example of this.

Just a few suggestions to consider. It doesn't have to be quite as ridiculous a concept as some of these hardcore Hags would have you believe. ;) In any case, I'd say it's quite likely that whereas the High Elves will have some powerful healing capability, the Dark Elves will focus more on debilitating the enemy and gaining the upper-hand by keeping them weakened with powerful curses and poisons, but that's not to say they're not entitled to some fairly weak healing ability.

[Xurré]

Witch Elves have often been perceived as Naggaroth's answer to the Empire's Warrior Priests. In WAR, the Warrior Priests are hardly push-over healers themselves, and rightly so given their own reputation in lore.
But a Witch Elf isn’t a Warrior Priest (and shouldn’t be turned into one).

While it makes perfect sense for a Warrior Priest to be in the midst of battle, hear the call from somewhere else in the battle that their aid is needed there, and move to that other spot thus is completely contradictory to the nature of Witch Elves. You can’t turn a frenzy-based unit into a support class, because the constant repositioning and support giving needed to fulfill the support role is directly contrary to frenzy.

Witch Elves, and that includes Hags, aren’t units which walk around the battlefield to see where their aid is needed, who look where they might need to give some buffs, give some healing or, if there is time, do a bit of damage too. They’re the kind who want to get into combat as fast as possible, rip their enemies to shreds in a hail of blood, and not stop until the enemy is dead. To turn that into a class that is there to aid the other classes is… ugh.

If Witch Elves are introduced as a class, it is more likely they'll be introduced in the shape of the Witch Hag (http://wargames.com.hk/oscommerce/images/res/Cauldron-of-Blood_large_150_117.gif) (mini on the left) rather than as a simple run-of-the-mill maiden Bride. It is the Hag, after all, who has access to all of the Temple's secret skills, such as the Dance of Doom, Touch of Death, Cry of War, the Witchbrew and a variety of poisons. Notice how in the miniature design, and the artwork (http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/darkelves/artwork/images/big-11.jpg), the Witch Elf carries of chalice full of either blessed blood from the Cauldron, poison, or Witchbrew. Notice, also, how the Cauldron is guarded by two maidens and a Hag who refrain from rushing straight into battle, but willingly hang back to guard their holy relic which inspires their sisters to fight on with continued divine frenzy. This shows that Witch Elves don't necessarily have to be designed purely for rushing straight into direct conflict. Someone has to anoint those Cold One Knights with blessed blood before they strap on their armour after all.
The guardians of the Cauldron of Blood also have frenzy. Hags also have frenzy. A Hag is nothing more than a more advanced Witch Elf, they don’t get magical healing abilities, they don’t buff their troops with blood, they don’t support.

I agree that players playing Witch Elves would be Hags by level 40 (in abilities if not in name), but that doesn’t make them any less Witch Elves.

As for the goblet of blood… they drink[ that to drive themselves into frenzy. I have no idea how anyone could read “ooh, support” into that… particularly since I don’t think it’s likely that Witches would let just anyone drink their Witchbrew.

And Hags aren’t mistresses of magic. Witch Elves aren’t allowed to use magic at all. And while I can definitely see higher-level Witches break that rule, it makes no sense to completely base a Witch Elf career on using magic.


I really don’t get it… why are people so desperate to once again make the religious character the support character?

Bah.


- Xurré

[Dracnye]

Support/Healer. Using life-drains to siphon health off their opponents to heal their allies.

[Estebar]

But a Witch Elf isn’t a Warrior Priest (and shouldn’t be turned into one).
A Witch Elf Hag doesn't have to be. You simply have to find means by which she can be interpreted into a Melee-Support Hybrid role while still remaining suitably Witch Elfy, in the same way that several forum members have managed to differentiate a Witch Elf from an Orc Choppa, despite the two both being considered frenzied berzerkers.

While it makes perfect sense for a Warrior Priest to be in the midst of battle, hear the call from somewhere else in the battle that their aid is needed there, and move to that other spot thus is completely contradictory to the nature of Witch Elves. You can’t turn a frenzy-based unit into a support class, because the constant repositioning and support giving needed to fulfill the support role is directly contrary to frenzy.

Witch Elves, and that includes Hags, aren’t units which walk around the battlefield to see where their aid is needed, who look where they might need to give some buffs, give some healing or, if there is time, do a bit of damage too. They’re the kind who want to get into combat as fast as possible, rip their enemies to shreds in a hail of blood, and not stop until the enemy is dead. Who says they ever have to leave battle? The Hag could have aura-based support where the harder she fights, the nastier she gets and the wider her aura of support extends, and those who come to her within range of her aura in battle receive buffs/heals.

The guardians of the Cauldron of Blood also have frenzy. Hags also have frenzy. A Hag is nothing more than a more advanced Witch Elf, they don’t get magical healing abilities, they don’t buff their troops with blood, they don’t support. And Hags aren’t mistresses of magic. Witch Elves aren’t allowed to use magic at all. And while I can definitely see higher-level Witches break that rule, it makes no sense to completely base a Witch Elf career on using magic. They do have Frenzy, but as I understand it, they are also guardians and keepers of the Cauldron and must always remain within 2" of it, so they're prevented from rushing into battle as the Cauldron itself cannot move. They work from a defensive position.

The energies of Khaine surround the Cauldron, giving the guardians a 4+ Ward save against missile fire (including magic missiles), and Magic Resistance (1).

Red Fury: Any Dark Elf units (including the Guardians) within 24" of the Cauldron of Blood are driven into a fury of destruction by the Cauldron's presence. Affected units may re-roll failed rolls to wound in the first round of any combat. In addition, affected Witch Elf units are always frenzied - if within 24" they cannot lose their frenzy, if they have lost their frenzy and move within 24" they regain it immediately. The baleful energies seeping from the Cauldron give all Witch Elves within 24" of it a 6+ Ward save.

So, thanks to the "baleful energies of Khaine", Dark Elves get magical protection buffs (6+ ward save against damage, 4+ against missile fire, spell resistance), and combat buffs (re-rolled failed rolls to wound, reinforced frenzy). On top of this, as stated countless times before, the Cauldron also provides the withered Hags of the Temple with fresh, young, rejuvenated bodies and newfound youthful vigour.

I'd say Khaine provides a lot more support magic than the Sorceress herself, wouldn't you? ;) On the tabletop, the Sorceress' support magic affects only herself, whereas the Cauldron affects every Druchii, with particular favouritism shown towards his most devoted followers. None of his support requires his priestesses to move out of battle to help others. If you need support, you have come within range to get it. That's how the Hag could work too. That way, she doesn't have to leave the slaughter.

The quote about magic comes from the very basic initial description of Witch Elves.

Witch Elves are the maiden-elves who are wedded to Khaine, the Lord of Murder, in the midnight rites of blood sacrifice and magic.

Also, "come now" Xurré, you yourself have claimed that Hags are entitled to "Blood Magic" a number of times previously before now.

I agree that players playing Witch Elves would be Hags by level 40 (in abilities if not in name) Why bother? Chaos Chosen didn't have to go through 40 levels as a Chaos Knight to be noticed by Tzeentch. Get them to start out as Hags to have them unique from standard maiden Witch Elves.

I really don’t get it… why are people so desperate to once again make the religious character the support character? Well, it doesn't necessarily have to be the Witch Elf just because she has the strongest religious theme; the Sorceresses are from the Nine Convents after all, and operate in a similarly nun-like way to the Brides, being married to the Witch King during initiation. I'm just trying to show how a Melee-Support Hybrid Witch Elf Hag shouldn't be written off as fiercely as some would like them to be.

[Xurré]

A Witch Elf Hag doesn't have to be. You simply have to find means by which she can be interpreted into a Melee-Support Hybrid role while still remaining suitably Witch Elfy, in the same way that several forum members have managed to differentiate a Witch Elf from an Orc Choppa, despite the two both being considered frenzied berzerkers.
But that’s the problem… there isn’t an “interpretation” for them into a melee-support hybrid role while still remaining Witch Elf-y… because beyond both being melee they’re direct opposites. Might as well turn the Sorceress into a melee role… that’s definitely something that this game doesn’t have yet: melee magic.

Who says they ever have to leave battle? The Hag could have aura-based support where the harder she fights, the nastier she gets and the wider her aura of support extends, and those who come to her within range of her aura in battle receive buffs/heals.
You know as well as I do that that’s not how it’s going to work out. People aren’t going to think “I’m wounded, let’s break off battle here, let’s stop being a tank for the Sorceress here, and go and get some healing with the Witch Elf over there.” They’re going to be shouting, and shouting loud, for the Witch Elf to come to them to provide the healing or buffs or whatever. After all, it’s the healer’s job to keep everyone healed.

They do have Frenzy, but as I understand it, they are also guardians and keepers of the Cauldron and must always remain within 2" of it, so they're prevented from rushing into battle as the Cauldron itself cannot move. They work from a defensive position.
Hmm, that could be. I’m not that familiar with how artillery work; though I must say that this is the first I’ve head of it. That doesn’t change a thing though, considering tht I seriously doubt that every player would constantly be within short distance of a Cauldron of Blood.

So, thanks to the "baleful energies of Khaine", Dark Elves get magical protection buffs (6+ ward save against damage, 4+ against missile fire, spell resistance), and combat buffs (re-rolled failed rolls to wound, reinforced frenzy). On top of this, as stated countless times before, the Cauldron also provides the withered Hags of the Temple with fresh, young, rejuvenated bodies and newfound youthful vigour.
But that’s the Cauldron… that has nothing to do with the abilities of the Witches themselves. The temple of Khaine doesn’t like using magic (and Witch Elves are forbidden from using magic):

Sect Enmity: Use of magic is distasteful to the followers of Khaine, and there is a centuries-long feud between the Temple of Khaine and the Convents of the Sorceresses.it is Morathi and Morathi alone of the Witch Elves who is allowed to wield magical power; like her son, Morathi feels no shame in creating laws and traditions for the control of others, whilst ignoring them herself.
The disciples of Khaine, including the Witch Elves, have their own unique set of skills (Dark Elf Army Book, pages 22-23), but all of them are designed to make them better in combat, better at killing and all of them are self-only (noting that Witchbrew is drunk by the entire unit of Witch Elves before battle… the brew only affects an individual).

Also note that the most powerful Witch Elf Hag after Morathi, Hellebron (http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/special-characters/3/), has no magical powers whatsoever. And if she’s in the game I seriously doubt a single level 40 character will be enough to defeat her (so I doubt we’ll get to quite that level of power).

No, there’s absolutely nothing that indicates that Witches can be healers or would function in a support role, and every indication that they’re made purely for doing as much damage, killing as many as quickly, as possible.

Also, "come now" Xurré, you yourself have claimed that Hags are entitled to "Blood Magic" a number of times previously before now.
Yes, I have… as a way to add a little flavor at high level. And I’ve always held that this should follow the same rules as the rest of the Temple of Khaine abilities and be designed to help the Witch employing it kill better/quicker/etc.


- Xurré

[Lorik]

Xurre -

Will you not play Warhammer at all if Witch Elves as we know them aren't a playable class?

I have to ask cause you've just invested so much time, energy, thought, and soul into your persistent arguments.

[Xurré]

Xurre -

Will you not play Warhammer at all if Witch Elves as we know them aren't a playable class?

I have to ask cause you've just invested so much time, energy, thought, and soul into your persistent arguments.
I’ve already answered that question numerous times... but to recap.

If Witch Elves in some form aren’t a player career, then no I won’t play Warhammer (and I’m not going to explain why again except to say that it has nothing to do with ‘threatening’ or anything).

If, Khaine forbid, they’re in as healers or such I’ll probably still give it a shot in the minuscule chance that they’ll actually still feel like playing Witches (i.e. that people won’t be constantly begging you to heal them and that you can just focus on killing). I actually like playing healers in games... you’re always wanted. But I just can’t see it working for Witches.

But in that second case it’d feel more like trying WoW again because of continued insistence of friends, even though I know I greatly dislike the game. And I seriously doubt I’d last more than the free trial period.

But who knows... miracles do happen, right? :p


[EDIT] As for persistent arguments... I’m used to it. I keep arguing for an actual roleplaying game on the computer too, but that doesn’t seem to happen either.


- Xurré

[roadkizzle]

If you want to go play an actual roleplaying game on the computer, just go play a MUD, and leave us be to enjoy our game.

[The Masked Prince]

I can understand Xurré's love for witch elves.
But really if they are in, even if it's not the way you were excpeted, you should just try and not completly give up WAR.
Warrior priest are healers, but they seem to be great in mele though...
you never know...

It's the same for me, if some sort of rogue type class is not in for darkelves, I won't play WAR at all.
But I could say "yes" even if my expected class is on the range DPS slot, it would be better than nothing.

[Xurré]

If you want to go play an actual roleplaying game on the computer, just go play a MUD, and leave us be to enjoy our game.
Where did that come from? :???:

I wasn't talking about WAR... I've suggested preciously little changes in game mechanics for WAR to turn it into a roleplaying game. (At best we might hope that it'll be a game we can roleplay in, which is not the same).


- Xurré

[Black Razor]

If you want to go play an actual roleplaying game on the computer, just go play a MUD, and leave us be to enjoy our game.

"Our game" is a MMORPG = massive multiplayer online ROLE PLAYING GAME. Fact is those who don't role play at least a little .. even if simply following the decor of there race (orc goes WAAAAAGH!).. are the ones who should 'go play another game', as if all you are here to do is compete, there are far better game genres for it. MMORPGs are meant for social interaction in an immersive environment, and though yes that does include player vs. player, even in a game like this ..simple competition isn't the sole drive. I don't think Xurre was stating anything like wanting WAR to be made into a 'true RPG' but like it or not it is still a RPG and people will more then likely roleplay in it. I don't agree with everything Xurre says or even the way she says it sometimes ..but at least her passion leads to intelligent if not always unbiased posts and I for one hope Xurre does stick with it and keep up the fight even if the much beloved by both of us Witches arn't included in the game. Personal attacks and quick quips don't serve anything or add anything productive to the forums ..

[Lorik]

I’ve already answered that question numerous times... but to recap.

If Witch Elves in some form aren’t a player career, then no I won’t play Warhammer (and I’m not going to explain why again except to say that it has nothing to do with ‘threatening’ or anything).

If, Khaine forbid, they’re in as healers or such I’ll probably still give it a shot in the minuscule chance that they’ll actually still feel like playing Witches (i.e. that people won’t be constantly begging you to heal them and that you can just focus on killing). I actually like playing healers in games... you’re always wanted. But I just can’t see it working for Witches.

But in that second case it’d feel more like trying WoW again because of continued insistence of friends, even though I know I greatly dislike the game. And I seriously doubt I’d last more than the free trial period.

But who knows... miracles do happen, right? :p


[EDIT] As for persistent arguments... I’m used to it. I keep arguing for an actual roleplaying game on the computer too, but that doesn’t seem to happen either.


- Xurré

I admire your persistence and your passion, Xurre, and hope to be on the same server with you. :)

Also - after you play a little bit of Warhammer, Warcraft won't be an option for you. As an old beleaguered guild master during the BWL/AQ era, I can say that the new stuff they've included is very revolutionary - but you will find the community and general feel of the game lacking - especially on an RP server which is supposed to be reserved for people such as yourself.

Just don't sepuku on us if it's not Witch Elves, kay? :(

[roadkizzle]

Xurre, I'm aware that you haven't been trying to change anything about WAR to make it an exclusively roleplaying game, but you just said that you wanted a true roleplaying game for the computer, so I was just saying that you can just go play them.

@Black Razor. what defines a roleplaying game on the computer is NOT going through pretending to be a different character in the game. That is because there are very few mechanics that can enforce it. The reason why I play roleplaying games is that it gives an interesting puzzle in trying to create the best character I can. I am sorry that I am not very creative, and cannot think of how to talk as if I was actually my character. My mind just has a block to where I can't imagine it well. It must have something to do with why I am an engineering major.


Edit: To clarify, WAR is not catering exclusively to those who like to roleplay in their characters, it is mainly targetted to the Casual players. Therefore, if you just want a game catering to roleplaying, this isn't necessarily going to be the best one.

[Xurré]

I admire your persistence and your passion, Xurre, and hope to be on the same server with you. :)
Thank you. :)

Also - after you play a little bit of Warhammer, Warcraft won't be an option for you.
It already isn't an option for me... I was talking about what happened about a year-and-a-half ago. And that didn't even last a month. :p

Just don't sepuku on us if it's not Witch Elves, kay? :(
Don't worry. I'll be disappointed (very disappointed), but I'll find something else to play. Maybe some sort of crazed barbarian in AoC. ;)


Xurre, I'm aware that you haven't been trying to change anything about WAR to make it an exclusively roleplaying game, but you just said that you wanted a true roleplaying game for the computer, so I was just saying that you can just go play them.
This is getting very, very off-topic. But I was just stating that to point out this (Witch Elves) wouldn't be the only thing I've argued passionately and at length for that doesn't seem to have any effect.

Then again, Fallout 3 actually seems to do their introduction segment of the game the way I've long suggested (starting your character at birth and fast-forwarding through the first twenty years or so of your life, pausing at significant events). So who knows.


- Xurré

[Syr]

"Our game" is a MMORPG = massive multiplayer online ROLE PLAYING GAME. Fact is those who don't role play at least a little .. even if simply following the decor of there race (orc goes WAAAAAGH!).. are the ones who should 'go play another game

I'm not sure if you're new to MMOs, and I don't want to get into an argument about this, but most players won't be roleplaying. There will be roleplay servers where you can play in the kind of atmosphere you're looking for, but on the rest of the servers if you confront an Ork who yells 'charge' instead of 'waaagh' he's probably going to make use of his ignore list :p On normal servers you won't find people using 'OOC' to speak out of character, and you'll get a lot of talk about game mechanics.. like 'hey this staff has +5 INT, but should I mix it with WILL?" and run into MMO terms like farming, ding!, dps, xp in open channels.

This is because MMORPGs are semi-pseudo-RPGs. People immerse themselves in the game, but they don't usually get into character.


To add to the roleplay debate going on, I've heard arguments towards mechanics enhancing roleplay in most games.. requests for a mechanic to do this, or that. The plain truth of roleplaying is that most mechanics cannot help it. If you have a game world that is well done and a chat box, then you have a game you can roleplay in, from there the bottleneck is on the roleplayer. A roleplayer has to seek out other willing roleplayers and start their own adventure via their own imaginations, otherwise no game will meet their expectations. Most MMOs provide the means to roleplay as much as you'd want to, and many roleplayers make use of them, but there are always some roleplayers who are.. for some reason or another.. unable or not motivated enough to roleplay, and they often blame the game mechanics, rules, or lack of game mechanics.

So all I can say, if you're playing on a roleplay server in WAR remember, it's up to you to write your storyline and find other roleplayers who want to participate. Roleplay is about imagination, not mechanics.

[Azrayne2.0]

Yeah Xurre, you seem to be a little overattached to the whole Witch Elf thing. I understand liking a certain class and all, but damn man. There will be plenty of other DPS classes out there for you to enjoy.

I think the chance of the dark elf melee class being filled by anything other than a witch elf is pretty much 0 anyway, so it's not like you have much to worry about, but saying you straight up wouldn't play just because your favourite class won't be in? Seems a little extreme.