Masters of Evil

[Xurré]

The dark elf army book lists a number of special characters that players can field as part of their army. Usually the heads of their respective type of warriors they are in a way the “ideal” representation of their troops and tend to have a fair amount of background information within the dark elf lore.

In case you don’t recognize (all of) the names above, let me try and give a brief description for each of them.

Malekith, Witch King of Naggaroth

Malekith is the king of the dark elves. A powerful warrior and sorcerer he pretty much created the entire dark elf race. All the wars the dark elves fight tend to be in the name of Malekith, trying to get him on the throne of Ulthuan as they believe him to be the rightful heir (though whether they believe or not doesn’t really matter much). Since his body was burned by the flames of Asuryan (through which he had to step to prove himself a worthy king of the high elves) his body is encased in a suit of heavy armor, fused to his flesh. And thus he rides to battle on the back of his dragon Seraphon again and again, the full nation of the dark elves forming his army.

Morathi, The Hag Sorceress

Morathi is the mother (and lover) of the Witch King and second only to him in power. She is a scheming and talented Sorceress who taught Malekith all he knows of magic. She is the first of the Hag Queens and all Witch Elves owe allegiance to her before any other. And due to her continued bathing in the Cauldron of Blood, rejuvenating her old and tired flesh, she is possibly the most beautiful woman in the known world. She alone among the Witch Elves is allowed to wield magical power. It is also an open secret that she is the head of the forbidden cult of Slaanesh within dark elf society.

Malus Darkblade, Scion of Hag Graef

Made famous (if not to say “created”) by the Malus Darkblade novels Malus epitomizes everything it means to be a dark elf noble. He is greedy and treacherous and his tale is one told in much bloodshed, including the killing of some of his own family members. In his quest for bower he got possessed by the daemon Tz’arkan, forfeiting to the demon his life and soul. And while he seeks to undo himself of the daemon and regain these things the daemon also serves to give him great power when needed. Malus is a Cold One Knight and rides to battle on the back of his trusted beast Spite.

Beastlord Rakarth of Karond Kar (http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/special-characters/2/)

Although there have been many famous Beastmasters in the past, none have approached Rakarth's consummate skill or expertise. It is said he has an almost supernatural ability to subdue wild beasts and the dungeons of Karond Kar are filled with creatures he has tamed. He is in many way the ultimate Beastmaster.

Crone Hellebron, The Hag Queen (http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/special-characters/3/)

Though odly enough absent from the latest army book Hellebron is certainly listed in both older versions and on the GW website. She is one of the most ancient of Witch Elves, called Hag Queens, and within them second only to Morathi. But since Morathi denies her access to the true Cauldron of Blood and because she is so old that otherwise the power of the blood no longer rejuvenates her for long she must now endure many dark months as an old and ugly crone for each day of renewed youth. Still, despite this she is the greatest of the brides of Khaine, after the reclusive Morathi.

Kouran, Captain of the Black Guard (http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/special-characters/4/)

Kouran is the head of the Black Guard, Malekith’s personal bodyguard, and a cunning commander, renowned for taking risks, though always claiming victory in the end. Once he sacrificed half a Dark Elf army to draw the enemy into a trap, caring nothing for the lives of those who served him. He is an extremely efficient leader and is respected and feared by the Dark Elves under his command. He is in a way the ultimate Black Guard.

Tullaris of Har Ganeth (http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/special-characters/5/)

Tullaris, as leader of the Executioners, is one of the most murderous leaders in the whole of Naggaroth. Under his command, the Executioners have partaken in such devastating orgies of destruction that they have gained a fearful reputation all across the Warhammer world. Just the rumour that they are part of an invading Dark Elf army can cause floods of refugees to flee before the Dark Elf forces. He is the ultimate Executioner.

Shadowblade, Master of Assassins (http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/special-characters/6/)

Shadowblade is one of the best assassins (if not the best) that the Temple of Khaine can claim. Though still young in Dark Elf terms, being a mere 150 years old, his reputation is already legendary. Stories of his grisly adventures are used as the basis of ballads sung by Dark Elf minstrels, or as bedtime stories for Dark Elf children.

Other

In case I’ve missed any, and I don’t think I have, or in case none of the options seem adequate (for example, one might wish to vote “none of them, they’re all pansy elves, murderous as they might be” :p ) I’ve added this option. In case you do vote this then please explain which character you had wanted to vote for.


Anyway, there we go. I thought this might be an interesting discussion away from the usual class talk without needing to have much information on what WAR will offer dark elf-wise. Hopefully we’ll see all of them in game in some form or another (at least Malekith has been confirmed as the leader the High Elves might capture if they raid the dark elf capitol city of Naggarond).


- Xurré

[Xurré]

To be fair, I’ll be first to answer my own question.

To be honest, I’m a bit torn between Morathi and Hellebron. They’re both Witch Elves (and I had to vote for a Witch Elf). Morathi is also a traitorous Slaaneshi wh*re. :p She is also very powerful and has access to the true Cauldron of Blood (and with it eternal beauty, which is a quite attractive proposition). But she is also just as much a Sorceress as a Witch Elf and as such Hellebron tends to be more ‘pure’ in her Witch Elf-iness. So I ended up voting for Hellebron, but it’s only by a very, very narrow margin.

In the end though, they’re all cool. ;)


- Xurré

[Tae]

Kouran, without question.

One of, if not the best, tactical mind in the entire Warhammer Universe. Far better, in my opinion, than Malekith - and he's no bumbling idiot.

The sheer extremes to which Kouran will go just to achieve a victory are amazing, but yet he'd never lose the war just to win the battle.

Add to that he leads the Black Guards, one of the best mortal non-hero units in the game.

In individual combat he'd be no match for Malekith, this is true. However if they both had armies and (for some unknown reason) were at war, I'd definately put my money on Kouran. There's no other Dark Elf (or any other race for that matter) that could even come close to matching him on the battlefield.

[Xurré]

The blurb on Kouran was decidedly short and I must admit I’m not all that familiar with him. But I must say you definitely make a good argument.

Any source in particular which leads you to feel as such about him?


- Xurré

[kharnage]

I love the Malus Books, so I picked him.

[Nunizillion]

I'd have to say malus, although it seems not many people like him. The reson I like him is he's an impetious cold hearted (by dark elf standards) and just realy dosnt care about any one else. He's so self ritious and arrogent that he cant see whats about to happen. He drinks to much, and he would have been long dead if not for the demon inhabiting him. He is cunning, but not sort of planing for the future kind of way, more of a in the now cunning. the mans a friggin weasle.

These resons are why (I guess) a lot of people dont like him, but they're the exact resons I like him. I love flawed characters. Characters that cant see 2 feet in front of their face are much more enjoyable, to me, than lets say your super inteligent, tacticaly minded caniving always going to come out on top character. malus likes to think he is all those things but he's not. that gives him a degree of realism most fantasy characters in general dont have.

[Tae]

The blurb on Kouran was decidedly short and I must admit I’m not all that familiar with him. But I must say you definitely make a good argument.

Any source in particular which leads you to feel as such about him?


- Xurré

Well the official blurb about him suggests quite strongly that he's one of (if not the) greatest minds:


Unparalleled General:
Kouran has one of the finest military minds in the world, uncluttered by compassion, mercy or ego. Whenever a scenario requires players to roll a dice to determine something (table edge, who deploys first, who gets the first turn, etc) then the Dark Elf player gains a +1 to these dice rolls, in addition to any other modifiers.

However most of what I know is from a White Dwarf issue of long ago. I'll try and find a number, but I really doubt I'm going to be able to find one.

[Jinsei]

I voted for Kouran. I've always been inexplicably drawn to characters who have both physical and mental might. A brilliant tactician serving as the captain of the Black Guard?
Yes, please.
What I find really interesting about him is his ability to make such calculated risks and still emerge victorious, no matter the cost.

[Xurré]

Kouran is doing surprisingly well. I hadn’t expected that, but considering the explanations it does make sense.

Would be nice to read that White Dwarf article, though don’t worry too much if you can’t find it, Tae. :)

I must say that the description of Kouran kinda reminds me of Benedict in Roger Zelazny’s Amber chronicles. Benedict was also a master tactician. He’d go to a world where a war was going on and then join the losing side to try and help them to victory (training his tactical skills). Then he’d go to a parallel world very similar to that one, only the losing side would be even worse off and again try to win. And on and on until even he wouldn’t be able to win anymore.

Still, the main character managed to defeat him once by cheating. ;)

Besides being a bit of a dry character (he never smiles) he was quite cool. But then, Amber in general was quite cool. ;)


- Xurré

[Nathar]

This one is rough for me. Malekith is the most awesome king ever. Kouran, greatest tactician ever. Tullaris, unmatched bloodlust. Shadowblade is awesome in general, I'm not even sure I know anything other then a greater daemon I'd trust in a fight against him.

My vote will be Kouran because he doesn't win his fights through pure skill or magic power, but by thinking better and faster then anyone else. I don't know of any other character that has special rules in the game that is about tactical mastery. I know lore and game isn't the same but it does speak in his favour!

EDIT: And it's Tullaris of Har Ganeth, not Hag Ganeth;)

[Xurré]

EDIT: And it's Tullaris of Har Ganeth, not Hag Ganeth;)
Maybe that's why nobody voted for him yet. ;)

Fixed my post, but can't fix the poll options.


- Xurré

[Ashnari Doomsong]

I'd also like to point out that Kouran is very, very dead as of the sixth edition High Elf army book.

Me, I voted Malekith. He was the one who started it all, after all.

[Maj]

Morathi, The Hag Sorceress. Need I say more? ;p

[Dalamar]

Morathi as she is the True power in Naggaroth.

Malekith is pawn in her hands (they are rumored to be lovers... but come on, Malekith has *plate armor* fused to his body. Only piece he can remove is his helmet. Not the best lover in that right?)

Hellebron is jealous of the first and only true Cauldron of Blood, given to Morathi by Khain himself.

She doesn't have to bathe in her cauldron unlike other hags. The effects of the first of cauldrons are everlasting (that's why she guards it so jealously)

She leads Cult of Pleasure AND Temple of Khaine at the same time.

She is a Sorceress, while leading the Temple of Khaine, showing how untouchable she is (Khaine forbids the use of magic)

She is amazing for her points cost on tabletop

Pure awesomness!

[Xurré]

Malekith is pawn in her hands (they are rumored to be lovers... but come on, Malekith has *plate armor* fused to his body. Only piece he can remove is his helmet. Not the best lover in that right?)
I don’t know. I’ve always found the mouth most... useful in the arts of lovemaking. :mrgreen:

Hellebron is jealous of the first and only true Cauldron of Blood, given to Morathi by Khain himself.
That is, as far as I know, not actually confirmed and just a rumor (one I wouldn’t be surprised she started herself). It’s more likely that she either found it or stole it from someone else. Not that it matters much. ;)

She doesn't have to bathe in her cauldron unlike other hags. The effects of the first of cauldrons are everlasting (that's why she guards it so jealously)
Hmm, I hadn’t heard that before. The book at least notes that she does bathe in it every year (which isn’t proof one way or the other). I always considered that she guards it because it can rejuvenate much better and much more lastingly. Beauty is power after all.

She leads Cult of Pleasure AND Temple of Khaine at the same time.
At the moment I think it’s actually Hellebron leading the temple of Khaine. Or the Witch Elves at least.

She is a Sorceress, while leading the Temple of Khaine, showing how untouchable she is (Khaine forbids the use of magic)
I don’t think it’s Khaine forbidding magic (Khorne is the deity forbidding magic, though some say they might be one and the same). It seems to be Morathi herself forbidding Witch Elves from using magic, and that’s probably to prevent any competition to her power.

Pure awesomness!
That, I do agree with. ;)


- Xurré

[V'raneth]

Malekith gets my vote. There's just something about his combination of pride, power, disfigurement and delusions that I simply find very compelling.

[Selendor]

Morathi. She seems to be the one manipulating Malekith...he just doesn't seem as cunning or deceptive as she does. His goals and actions are very transparent, whereas Morathi can mess with your head. She commands the loyalty of Slaaneshi and Khainite alike, and is among the most powerful sorcerers in the world (excluding Teclis and Nagash, probably), as well as being a freakin' Witch Elf.

Kouran was my favorite though. I'm getting really tired of Games Workshop's "Golden Boys", Teclis and Tyrion. How about we just elect one of them the new Phoenix King so they can commit suicide like all the others, and we can put an end to this endless cycle of Dark Elf heroes being killed in the name of "perpetual struggle?"

[Maj]

I don’t know. I’ve always found the mouth most... useful in the arts of lovemaking. :mrgreen:

Omg I sooo need to meet you now =/

[Orochimaru]

Had to vote for Shadowblade, even assassin's need some love. Hopefully he'll one day get to finish Urian Poisonblade's job and kill the annoying Tyrion.

[Necrophyt]

Had to go with shadowblade. He's the greatest assasin in the known world and hes still a kid (only 100ish years old). Besides that story of him killing every person on that high elf boat one by one--- my second favorite DE fluff story.

My first fav being that story about the general who was facing an army of bret. knights and killed all his slaves so the battlefield wouldnt be flat rendering the knights useless...

[Linkusmax]

Kouran should have gottn a better sword, he died when it broke and Tyrions sword gave him an embaressingly close haircut (I.e. cut his head in half).

To be honest I quite like d Urian Poisonblade, its too bad Tyrion got to him too.

[Selandri]

Tongue comment, fair cop but still :P

I had to vote for Morathi. She, to me, sums up the Druchii as a race. Amoral, arrogant, cruel, beautiful but quite disturbing. Responsible for the Ulthuan civil war, yet in Malekiths shadow so very much a puppeteer, if you will. Manipulative to the extreme. Not to mention gorgeous. Sick, but gorgeous.

As to the whole lovers thing, it's hinted at but an unnatural relationship does not necessarily require lovemaking. ( It could be argued that's a very natural thing, if they weren't mother and son ) though I'm unsure if this makes her cooler or more twisted. Or perhaps both.

And come on, Morathi would kick Teclis' , dagnabbit.

I have a whole Elizabeth Bathory fixation though so my vote is probably somewhat biased.

[Linkusmax]

And come on, Morathi would kick Teclis' , dagnabbit.


I doubt it, being the greatest living mage has its benifits. He beat Melkith in a magic duel. He banished an entire army of demons with one spell.

I think he could take her.

[Selandri]

As a dear, ex-guildie once commented ( We're not going into his mental state at the point of this quote ) "Because people have boobs."

Morathi could kick Teclis' butt, because Morathi has boobs.

That's all there is to it.

Rassin frassin Teclis and rassin frassin Tyrion rassin frassin pansy eared gits!

( I might be a wee bit bitter. )

[Maj]

As a dear, ex-guildie once commented ( We're not going into his mental state at the point of this quote ) "Because people have boobs."

Morathi could kick Teclis' butt, because Morathi has boobs.

That's all there is to it.

Rassin frassin Teclis and rassin frassin Tyrion rassin frassin pansy eared gits!

( I might be a wee bit bitter. )

Boobies have no effect on the man! Unless they are big...then we may be tempted to squeeze them...just b/c there so darn fun sometimes. =/

[Selandri]

Hey. or not, no man can resist cleavage and a credit card.

And while Teclis is somewhat, well, high-elfy, I have yet to see anything in the lore that says he loves other... male elves.

This conversation is going so so wrong.

[Maj]

This conversation is going so so wrong.

You are right...back to the topic. We shall agree, Morathi wins. ;p

[Linkusmax]

Haha Teclis certainly isn't . If I recall correctly one of the Gotrek and Felix books has him in bed with 2 women at once.

[Selandri]

They're elves. You sure they were women? :P

Must buy the Gotrek and Felix books. Read one, I think, but due to living in NZ it's less easy to find them.

Edit: Okay, apparently less difficult than it used to be. You just made me a happy platypus.

V--- Disturbs me. Teclis is a perv!

[Linkusmax]

Yeahj they were pleasure slaves or somthing, Im fairly sure they were human, I can't remember really. Apparently he helps the Empire so much cause he picked up a taste for human women :P

[Godynial]

Had to go with shadowblade. He's the greatest assasin in the known world and hes still a kid (only 100ish years old). Besides that story of him killing every person on that high elf boat one by one--- my second favorite DE fluff story.

My first fav being that story about the general who was facing an army of bret. knights and killed all his slaves so the battlefield wouldnt be flat rendering the knights useless...

QFT!! Those are my favorite ones also. :D

Third would be tale of Urian Poisonblade, a man who knew 1000 ways to kill an enemy and 10000 ways to cripple him and leave to his mercy. Wicked...

[Nathar]

Right, I had forgotten that hole Kouran dying thing.. utterly pathetic. High elves are gettting too many of our heroes. I'd like to dig my venom sword deep into Tyrion's throat. You know... in a TT game... I know it's not reality, I just get so... grrr at times!

Add to that that Malus Darkblade will die soon. I hope. He cannot be allowed to become a threat to our great king.

[Dalamar]

I don’t know. I’ve always found the mouth most... useful in the arts of lovemaking. :mrgreen:

True that, Which would imply Morathi getting all the fun :D which only proves how Malekith is a puppet in her hands.

Hmm, I hadn’t heard that before. The book at least notes that she does bathe in it every year (which isn’t proof one way or the other). I always considered that she guards it because it can rejuvenate much better and much more lastingly. Beauty is power after all.

My mistake, it's that her cauldron's powers don't get lesser with each bath and last whole year, while Hellebron stays young and pretty for a couple weeks at most.

At the moment I think it’s actually Hellebron leading the temple of Khaine. Or the Witch Elves at least.

Beloved of Khaine
Morathi is first of the Hag Qeens, and all Witch Elves owe allegiane to her before any other.
Follower by TT rules effect.

I don’t think it’s Khaine forbidding magic (Khorne is the deity forbidding magic, though some say they might be one and the same). It seems to be Morathi herself forbidding Witch Elves from using magic, and that’s probably to prevent any competition to her power.

It's Morathi's idea, and Khaine's law (she's his highest priestess remember? ;) ) If you look at more powerful Witch Elf units on the TT they don't have magic, they have magic resistance.

As for Tyrion and Teclis' glorious achievements... well, I grew sick of them when I read how Tyrion gracefully leapt over full unit of dark elves (oh, around 4-5 ranks deep usually) to grab Everqueen and jump over another regiment to safety. Or killing Poisonblade by deception... I mean... it was friggin Poisonblade, master swordsman with no match on the whole world as far as underhanded tricks go. He should easily see trough Tyrion's weak attempt at it.

And considering Teclis and Morathi... Morathi is pure win as far as TT rules go. They might be about equal in magical power. But Morathi is a Witch Elf while Teclis is a wimp. One charge with Heartrender solves the problem.

It's a shame how TT rules don't match lore. I mean, my nameless dragonrider can kill Tyrion in a single charge and is still cheaper in points <.<

[Ashnari Doomsong]

Right, I had forgotten that hole Kouran dying thing.. utterly pathetic. High elves are gettting too many of our heroes. I'd like to dig my venom sword deep into Tyrion's throat. You know... in a TT game... I know it's not reality, I just get so... grrr at times!

Add to that that Malus Darkblade will die soon. I hope. He cannot be allowed to become a threat to our great king.

"Too many"? Which ones have you lost? Only Kouran and Poisonblade AFAIK. You should know that you have been directly responsible for the deaths of very many High Elven heroes(four of which had names, and one of which had rules IIRC) and three Phoenix Kings over the years, as well as indirectly causing the death of a fourth and possibly killing a fifth. Also, you mortally crippled Eltharion, essentially killing him.

Honestly, I think it's about time that some champions of Naggaroth were killed dead by the High Elves. It's about bleedin' time.

[Nathar]

"Too many"? Which ones have you lost? Only Kouran and Poisonblade AFAIK. You should know that you have been directly responsible for the deaths of very many High Elven heroes(four of which had names, and one of which had rules IIRC) and three Phoenix Kings over the years, as well as indirectly causing the death of a fourth and possibly killing a fifth. Also, you mortally crippled Eltharion, essentially killing him.

Honestly, I think it's about time that some champions of Naggaroth were killed dead by the High Elves. It's about bleedin' time.

Which ones were those? The named heroes, I know about the phoenix kings but were you ever able to play with those in your games?

And about Eltharion, he got way cooler after his blinding so no complaining allowed;)

[Estebar]

Definitely Morathi.

She started it all. There wouldn't be any Dark Elves without her.

Plus, she's so freakin' old, and yet still alive, and still hot.

[Xurré]

Omg I sooo need to meet you now =/
;)


Add to that that Malus Darkblade will die soon. I hope. He cannot be allowed to become a threat to our great king.
I wouldn’t be surprised if that whole prophecy thing that Malekith is so afraid of actually refers to Malekith and Malus... as in Malus as the Dark King and Malekith as the sorcerer (he is the firstborn son of noble blood and learned in the darkest arts after all.

But I wouldn’t expect that to be “soon”... I’ve got the feeling that Malus’ story will stretch centuries to come.


Beloved of Khaine
Morathi is first of the Hag Qeens, and all Witch Elves owe allegiane to her before any other.
Follower by TT rules effect.
The text also says the following:

Morathi is the first Hag Queen of the Witch Elves, and although the sect now follows her rival, Hellebron, many who worship at the Temple of Khaine owe loyalty to the Sorceress.

;)

It's Morathi's idea, and Khaine's law (she's his highest priestess remember? ;) ) If you look at more powerful Witch Elf units on the TT they don't have magic, they have magic resistance.
Depends on what you call “Khaine’s Law”. As the text says:

It is Morathi and Morathi alone of the Witch Elves who is allowed to wield magical power; like her son, Morathi feels no shame in creating laws and traditions for the control of others, whilst ignoring them herself.

I seriously doubt Khaine (as in the deity) gives a damn whether his brides use magic or not.


Honestly, I think it's about time that some champions of Naggaroth were killed dead by the High Elves. It's about bleedin' time.
Naaaah. :p


Anyway, people are making a good argument for Morathi. I just think she’s perhaps a little over-the-top; she’s the most powerful Witch Elf and the most powerful sorceress and the most beautiful woman in the world and the head of at least two powerful religious cults and the real power behind the throne and ... Maybe that’s why she’s so popular (and I have to say I quite like her too), but I just prefer things a little more sedate. Hellebron is just a really good Witch Elf, despite having no magic and being an old crone and such.

Though I must admit Kouran is sounding pretty good too... just didn’t know that he’s dead (he’s still listed in my army book which, I thought, was the latest one).


- Xurré

[Nathar]

Though I must admit Kouran is sounding pretty good too... just didn’t know that he’s dead (he’s still listed in my army book which, I thought, was the latest one).


- Xurré

And without reading the high elf army book (I think that's where it is) it's not strange. There's a story describing some battle where Kouran is killed by... guess who *drum roll*... Tyrion. Don't remember much else but that's how he died.

[Xurré]

And without reading the high elf army book (I think that's where it is) it's not strange. There's a story describing some battle where Kouran is killed by... guess who *drum roll*... Tyrion. Don't remember much else but that's how he died.
I don't get that though... why would he be dead in one book and alive in the other?

Who knows, maybe Kouran, in his tactical brilliance, actually used a stand-in to get killed for him. :p


- Xurré

[Linkusmax]

No, hes dead. GW just has a tendancy to add dead special characters to army books anyway.

either that or the DE book came out before the HE but I don't think so.

One of the O&G special characters is dead.

[Kimmie]

i would love to see Morathi, The Hag Sorceress

that would be great

[Ashnari Doomsong]

Lessee. I'll admit, it was only a WD rulesset IIRC, but a gent named... um. Damn. Forgot about his name. He was a White Lion captain before Korhil? He was killed by Poisonblade, anyhow.

The others that I know of are Galaher Swiftblade(a shadow warrior), some veteran who was killed during the Sundering, Captain whatshisname of Shwammaship who was caught and killed by a Black Ark shortly before said Ark was destroyed by the Indraugnir, and... and...
There was another one. I cannot remember him just now.

I'm sorry, I am a bit rusty.

[Pugslah]

Im i the only one who finds Morathi vile, and just.....I don't know nasty.
not hot at all:-(

Shadowblade wins.:D
Malus does too i guess.;)

[Dalamar]

Lessee. I'll admit, it was only a WD rulesset IIRC, but a gent named... um. Damn. Forgot about his name. He was a White Lion captain before Korhil? He was killed by Poisonblade, anyhow.

According to 5th ed High Elf rulebook that captain was indeed killed by Urian... and that's it, the captain was some nameless elf killed to create a special character (who lives to this day)

The others that I know of are Galaher Swiftblade(a shadow warrior), some veteran who was killed during the Sundering

Name not mentioned in neither High nor Dark elf amy books, both 5th and 6th edition.

Captain whatshisname of Shwammaship who was caught and killed by a Black Ark shortly before said Ark was destroyed by the Indraugnir, and... and...

No mention of any notable character being caught before the Palace of Oblivion's sinking.

There was another one. I cannot remember him just now.

Seems there aren't any you remember, at least in rulebooks... which are sort of best reference. Would be great if you could find them.

Now High Elf army book alone (6th ed) mentions death of both Urian Poisonblade and Kouran at the hands of Tyrion. A little overdone golden boy if you ask me.

[Ghazbag]

Malus is imho by far one of the most awesome characters I know in the Warhammer World :D
I had a really good time reading the books about him, so I voted for him.

[Nathar]

No, hes dead. GW just has a tendancy to add dead special characters to army books anyway.

either that or the DE book came out before the HE but I don't think so.

One of the O&G special characters is dead.

The dark elf book came out some months before the high elves. In 6th edition I mean. So he wasn't dead when the dark elf book came out.

[Maj]

Im i the only one who finds Morathi vile, and just.....I don't know nasty.

You sir, are no longer allowed to post here! :shock:

[Necrophyt]

Actually, Im not a big Morathi fan either.

[Azyrn]

I love Morathi just everything about her as a character is awesome.

Edit: Shadowblade is cool but far from the best assassin. That title is held by Deathmaster Snikch he is a Skaven Assassin of Clan Eshin obviously. However, he is so skilled that he can triple wield using his tail.
http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/skaven/gaming/snikch/default.htm
His Model
http://oz.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/skaven/gaming/specialcharacters/images/snikch.gif

[Thrakkesh]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Morathi doesn't totally get it her way with Malekith, IIRC. Particularly in Storm of Chaos, there were implications that Malekith, though very near and dear to his 'mother' trusts her about as far as he can throw her. And the fact is, though Morathi pulls the strings, Malekith is the one people are really afraid of. So if Malekith ever really got annoyed at her... she'd probably end up very, very dead.

But that's always made that relationsihp (twisted at is) so appealing to me. Morathi is the puppeteer but she has to play her game very carefully, as NOBODY wants to invoke the wrath of the Witch King.

Anyway, my vote's for Malekith because I've always loved that vengence-ridden, furious, almost delirious personality. That and I've seen him beat down so many other special characters before. (That sword is so cheesy!)

[Xurré]

there were implications that Malekith, though very near and dear to his 'mother' trusts her about as far as he can throw her.
I think that's a pretty natural state of being in any dark elf relationship. ;)


- Xurré

[Dalamar]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Morathi doesn't totally get it her way with Malekith, IIRC. Particularly in Storm of Chaos, there were implications that Malekith, though very near and dear to his 'mother' trusts her about as far as he can throw her. And the fact is, though Morathi pulls the strings, Malekith is the one people are really afraid of. So if Malekith ever really got annoyed at her... she'd probably end up very, very dead.

Don't forget that Malekith has *no* magic protection beyond his skill. And Morathi is much more skilled than him (she practically invented Dark Arts). She probably had some part in creating her son's armor and its weakness ;)

[Infrantic]

Slitting people's throats in the night, slaughtering the crew of a High Elf Hawkship one by one, each one in a different way than the other, while they have no idea what's going on. Singlehandedly..

My vote has to be Shadowblade

[Azyrn]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Morathi doesn't totally get it her way with Malekith, IIRC. Particularly in Storm of Chaos, there were implications that Malekith, though very near and dear to his 'mother' trusts her about as far as he can throw her. And the fact is, though Morathi pulls the strings, Malekith is the one people are really afraid of. So if Malekith ever really got annoyed at her... she'd probably end up very, very dead.

But that's always made that relationsihp (twisted at is) so appealing to me. Morathi is the puppeteer but she has to play her game very carefully, as NOBODY wants to invoke the wrath of the Witch King.

Anyway, my vote's for Malekith because I've always loved that vengence-ridden, furious, almost delirious personality. That and I've seen him beat down so many other special characters before. (That sword is so cheesy!)
Very right you are Malekith uses her for her politcal knowledge. There is a small story in the DE army book and it downright says once she serves her usefulness he will have her taken care of.

[svart_lotus]

My vote had to be "other", since i think Urian Poisonblade was the best thing to happen to DEs since The god of murder :D Dont think he is mentioned in the "new" DE army book, so if you lucky and get a hold of the old army book, then you can read the short but wounderful story about the fighting spirit of the DEs and the truth about the coward deed of Tyrion.

[Nathar]

My vote had to be "other", since i think Urian Poisonblade was the best thing to happen to DEs since The god of murder :D Dont think he is mentioned in the "new" DE army book, so if you lucky and get a hold of the old army book, then you can read the short but wounderful story about the fighting spirit of the DEs and the truth about the coward deed of Tyrion.

I'd spit on him if I could.. play dead.. pathetic!

That said I never really knew him. There was nothing more then that story on him last edition and I didn't play before that one.

[Xurré]

My vote had to be "other", since i think Urian Poisonblade was the best thing to happen to DEs since The god of murder :D Dont think he is mentioned in the "new" DE army book, so if you lucky and get a hold of the old army book, then you can read the short but wounderful story about the fighting spirit of the DEs and the truth about the coward deed of Tyrion.
I do have an old army book, but I forgot to add him. Then again, one might argue that considering that he's dead... ;)


- Xurré

[Nathar]

I do have an old army book, but I forgot to add him. Then again, one might argue that considering that he's dead... ;)


- Xurré

One would be using a bad arguement. Kouran is somewhat dead too. But don't worry, that's what the "other" is for. So everything is covered.

[Ashnari Doomsong]

Now High Elf army book alone (6th ed) mentions death of both Urian Poisonblade and Kouran at the hands of Tyrion. A little overdone golden boy if you ask me.

Oh, yes. And no, you never killed any ruled special characters of Mr. Kouran's stature, I checked.

I was wrong. I am very sorry. Galaher Swiftblade is mentioned in at least two BL novels and a short story that was on the GW site at one time, but I can find no mention of the others except for their entry into the citizen levy, A.org's fanmag. I'm terribly sorry; I allowed that to impair my judgement.
This is embarassing.

That still does not, however, remove from the equation that you did kill several Phoenix Kings and other worthies, and possibly also Alith Anar. We don't know about him, though.
And, you might say that Eltharion the Grim was killed, only to be reincarnated as Eltharion the Blind.

Again, though, I am sorry for the mistake. Shan't happen again if I can help it.

[Selendor]

Technically, the Phoenix Kings killed themselves. :P

[Ashnari Doomsong]

Not Tethlis - he was probably killed by a Dark Elf assassin. And the Second Phoenix King, whose name escapes me at the moment(think it was Bel-Shanaar), was murdered by Malekith personally.

[Ilairon]

Bel Shanaar by poison. Caledor I by jumping into the ocean in full armor to avoid being captured by the rightful king. Caledor II by Dwarf axe (and if he let them strike him, then all the worse). Tethlis? I can't recall what happened to him, but he was just another Asur so I suppose no one cares. And Bel-Korhandis, albeit, I'm also not sure what happened to him. Then Aethis died by the blade of Girathon - a Druchii spy and assassin. Morvael by self-immolation.

And a curiosity, but if Caledor I jumped into the ocean in full armor then wouldn't he have taken the Phoenix Crown with him? Ergo, the Dwarfs couldn't steal the Phoenix King's crown from Caledor II because it would have been at the bottom of the ocean?

[Ashnari Doomsong]

He would most likely have left the purely ornamental crown at home. Bel Korhandis died peacefully in his sleep, proving that elves don't generally live forever. Um. There are more, but I am too fuzzy right now to name them.

[Ilairon]

He would most likely have left the purely ornamental crown at home.

But by the same token shouldn't Caledor II have left the crown at home instead of engaging the Dwarfs whilst wearing it? Regardless, though, it's unmistakably the weakling Asur's fault for losing it, and in combat with a dwarf of all things! The High Elves must have no sense of shame. :razz:

Bel Korhandis died peacefully in his sleep, proving that elves don't generally live forever.

Pah! That's the Asur for you: weak-willed and ill-bred. Our king's lasted all this time as have many of our greatest minds like Morathi, Hellebron, and Furion. All Druchii - followers of their true king - will live forever!

[Xurré]

All Druchii - followers of their true king - will live forever!
Might I say something about that? <applies some spit and polish to the nice sacrificial altar> :p


- Xurré

[Ilairon]

Might I say something about that? <applies some spit and polish to the nice sacrificial altar> :p


- Xurré

That's for the High Elves soon-to-be sacrificed, right? :neutral:

[Xurré]

That's for the High Elves soon-to-be sacrificed, right? :neutral:
That depends on how fast you can get me one (and please, a somewhat healthy specimen)... after that blood is blood. :twisted:


- Xurré

[Ashnari Doomsong]

Uh... I somehow doubt that people will be happy if you just run around sacrificing Druchii with no good reason. Chances are that you will, y'know, be charged for murder and sacrificed yourself or something.

Also, Caledor II would have worn it because he was an arrogant, decadent and all-round silly piece of twittery. His father was rather more humble, bright and overall nice.

[svart_lotus]

Uh... I somehow doubt that people will be happy if you just run around sacrificing Druchii with no good reason. Chances are that you will, y'know, be charged for murder and sacrificed yourself or something.

Also, Caledor II would have worn it because he was an arrogant, decadent and all-round silly piece of twittery. His father was rather more humble, bright and overall nice.

Well, actually... the hags are pretty much free to "drag and dropp" most living things that dont have a title :) But most Druchii that end up under the knife does so on "Death Night".

[Bulwyf]

This was a touch decision beween Malekith and Malus. But in the end I have to go with Malus. He is a Cold One Knight which is my favorite TT unit in either WH or WH40K. He absolutely embodies the druchii to me: he's pragmatic, does whatever is needed to achieve his goals and relies on his own wits, sword arm and a little friend called Spite to win the day. The Darkblade novels are just treats for me after already reading and owning the previous graphic novels about him.

[Ashnari Doomsong]

Well, actually... the hags are pretty much free to "drag and dropp" most living things that dont have a title :) But most Druchii that end up under the knife does so on "Death Night".

If this was the case, how on earth would Dark Elf society survive? If a bunch of Druchii were carted off for no apparent reason, it would not only reduce morale but also vastly reduce numbers. Really, except for Death Night, I suspect that Dark Elves are strictly off-limits when it comes to your regular sacrifices(occasionally, a battlefield execution will be performed to give either a magical boost, or a quickened death.

[svart_lotus]

If this was the case, how on earth would Dark Elf society survive? If a bunch of Druchii were carted off for no apparent reason, it would not only reduce morale but also vastly reduce numbers. Really, except for Death Night, I suspect that Dark Elves are strictly off-limits when it comes to your regular sacrifices(occasionally, a battlefield execution will be performed to give either a magical boost, or a quickened death.

Well, what you gonna do, thats how the lore goes anyway :D

[Ilairon]

Typically they only kill Druchii on Death Night (ten nights despite the name). Criminals to Druchii society are generally dealt with by the city's Dark Lord (or in the case of Clar Karond, Dark Lords), albeit Houses will also carry out their own internal cleaning (usually torture or a beating, and particular delinquents may become the choicest offerings for the Harvest of Souls or after Death Night). However, an unsanctioned sorcerer or sorceress can fear the Temple of Khaine rather than any noble, and likewise any member of the Cult of Pleasure really only fears retribution from the Temple. Most of the deaths that occur outside Death Night are likely linked to assassination or gladiatorial bouts for sport, honor, or to gain the eye of a woman and her family (mind, usually unwittingly at the woman's behest and amusement). So yes, it's fair to say that the Temple doesn't go willy-nilly killing people as they please, and Warpsword would seem to suggest that if they start to do that then they find a city up in arms against them.

[Thrakkesh]

If this was the case, how on earth would Dark Elf society survive? If a bunch of Druchii were carted off for no apparent reason, it would not only reduce morale but also vastly reduce numbers. Really, except for Death Night, I suspect that Dark Elves are strictly off-limits when it comes to your regular sacrifices(occasionally, a battlefield execution will be performed to give either a magical boost, or a quickened death.

The strong live.

The weak die.

I believe that's exactly how Malekith wants it.

[Xurré]

If this was the case, how on earth would Dark Elf society survive? If a bunch of Druchii were carted off for no apparent reason, it would not only reduce morale but also vastly reduce numbers. Really, except for Death Night, I suspect that Dark Elves are strictly off-limits when it comes to your regular sacrifices(occasionally, a battlefield execution will be performed to give either a magical boost, or a quickened death.
You’re thinking like a weak human.

It wouldn’t reduce morale, but raise it for two reasons. First it’s another bunch of weak losers being carted off and prevented from dragging all of society down (as Thrakkesh says: the strong live, the weak die). Second, it’s not you being carted off.

Secondly, a way to prevent them from looking for sacrifices among the druchii is by keeping them continually supplied with a healthy quantity of slaves (why do you think one-tenth of all slaves captured go to the temple? It’s not for cleaning duties). This is even besides Harvest of Souls where the druchii can try and buy safety on Death Night by sacrificing their best slaves to the temple.

I do think the temple has pretty much autonomy in deciding matters of religion (where an unfavorable decision means death pretty much) and who’s to say those dark elves they sacrificed really weren’t members of the cult of pleasure?

Now, of course, the members of the temple aren’t complete idiots either and even though they, technically, probably could they’re not likely to go off and kill whoever they please. As Ilairon pointed out that could turn the whole city against you (though that really was a religious war with two factions within the temple going against each other). But a couple of druchii here and there? Who’s going to care?

Of course, I could be wrong as there isn’t anything officially written as to what extend the temple is allowed to freely sacrifice dark elves.


- Xurré

[Ilairon]

Now, of course, the members of the temple aren’t complete idiots either and even though they, technically, probably could they’re not likely to go off and kill whoever they please. As Ilairon pointed out that could turn the whole city against you (though that really was a religious war with two factions within the temple going against each other).

- Xurré

Well, it was a religious struggle until the end when they started raiding everyone, highborn and lowborn alike. Then the city itself, which had avoided the religious struggles, turned against the Temple. The Temple certainly has some leeway, but only as long as they don't bother the wrong people. Most Druchii won't think of a slippery slope and will only care about themselves. So no one will care if the Temple kills a person here or there, except those people of course, but they'll get up in arms if they're attacked, and generally the highborn seem to band together a bit more (well, more that it's much more taboo for the Temple to target a highborn).

[Selendor]

I doubt many Witch Elves, assuming they're as lucid as people are saying, would want to run the risk of "sacrificing" a member of a house. The way I understand it they get most of their slaves through Death Night, and possibly corsair raids (not sure how Malekith rations out his share of the slaves). Not to mention Highborn tend to be very, very capable fighters - second only to Assassins among the Druchii, per the tabletop rules.

[svart_lotus]

I doubt many Witch Elves, assuming they're as lucid as people are saying, would want to run the risk of "sacrificing" a member of a house. The way I understand it they get most of their slaves through Death Night, and possibly corsair raids (not sure how Malekith rations out his share of the slaves). Not to mention Highborn tend to be very, very capable fighters - second only to Assassins among the Druchii, per the tabletop rules.

They dont take slaves on Death night, only Druchii.

[Selendor]

Yes, but the way the noble families avoid confrontations with the Witch Elves on Death Night is to give considerable numbers of slaves to the temple.

Point being, I very much doubt Witch Elves are able to just run around dragging off Dark Elves for their own purposes. :-P

[svart_lotus]

Yes, but the way the noble families avoid confrontations with the Witch Elves on Death Night is to give considerable numbers of slaves to the temple.

Point being, I very much doubt Witch Elves are able to just run around dragging off Dark Elves for their own purposes. :-P
Well, that is the basics of "death night", the do drugs and drag Druchii's from there homes to kill them (exept a few that becomes witch elves or assassins).
Never read that nobles donate slaves on death night, would love to read more about it though.

"There is a night put aside for the Brides of Khaine called Death Night, when the Hag Queens leads the Witch Elves through the streets, breaking into houses and stealing away the people from within. On Death Night all doors and windows are barred and Elves hide in terror from the servants of the God of Murder, for on his night the god shows no mercy, not even to his most faithful worshippers. Hundreds of Dark Elves are dragged to the altars and sacrificed, young and old, and their blood fills the cauldrons for the Hag Queens to bathe in. Amidst great revelry the Witch Elves feast upon raw flesh and drink blood mixed with wine. After many hours, intoxicated and exhausted by the dance they fall into a stupefied sleep and do not awake for many days."

This is the best script about Death Night i could find, its from the old army book.

[Ilairon]

Well, the Harvest of Souls, which precedes Death Night, is a means of providing the Temple with slaves and is used to keep families safe on Death Night.

"One of the most popular times of year is the Harvest of Souls. Each noble family must try to outdo each other in the number of slaves they sacrifice to Khaine (a Dark Elf family may own from one hundred to as many as a thousand slaves.) The more slaves a family sacrifices the less chance that they will feel the knife of the Witch Elves' blade on Death Night (see below.) Once the slaves have been sacrificed, excited Dark Elf children wait at the doors of the Temple of Khaine for the priestess to hand them the severed heads of those sacrificed. The children would then race each other to the spikes that dot the city walls where they would plant their gruesome trophies. Inside the temple the victims are disembowelled and their entrails and hearts placed on sacrificial pyres. The Witch Elves then remove the skin of the victims and sow it together to make one large sheet. A family's status could then be measured by the size of these macabre decorations as they are draped along the city walls."

[Nathar]

Well, the Harvest of Souls, which precedes Death Night, is a means of providing the Temple with slaves and is used to keep families safe on Death Night.

"One of the most popular times of year is the Harvest of Souls. Each noble family must try to outdo each other in the number of slaves they sacrifice to Khaine (a Dark Elf family may own from one hundred to as many as a thousand slaves.) The more slaves a family sacrifices the less chance that they will feel the knife of the Witch Elves' blade on Death Night (see below.) Once the slaves have been sacrificed, excited Dark Elf children wait at the doors of the Temple of Khaine for the priestess to hand them the severed heads of those sacrificed. The children would then race each other to the spikes that dot the city walls where they would plant their gruesome trophies. Inside the temple the victims are disembowelled and their entrails and hearts placed on sacrificial pyres. The Witch Elves then remove the skin of the victims and sow it together to make one large sheet. A family's status could then be measured by the size of these macabre decorations as they are draped along the city walls."


I love how that's described!! I can imagine the peaceful music in the background, "excited children wait at the doors of the Temple of Khaine".. I hope they put this in, I want a severed head:D

[svart_lotus]

Well, the Harvest of Souls, which precedes Death Night, is a means of providing the Temple with slaves and is used to keep families safe on Death Night.

"One of the most popular times of year is the Harvest of Souls. Each noble family must try to outdo each other in the number of slaves they sacrifice to Khaine (a Dark Elf family may own from one hundred to as many as a thousand slaves.) The more slaves a family sacrifices the less chance that they will feel the knife of the Witch Elves' blade on Death Night (see below.) Once the slaves have been sacrificed, excited Dark Elf children wait at the doors of the Temple of Khaine for the priestess to hand them the severed heads of those sacrificed. The children would then race each other to the spikes that dot the city walls where they would plant their gruesome trophies. Inside the temple the victims are disembowelled and their entrails and hearts placed on sacrificial pyres. The Witch Elves then remove the skin of the victims and sow it together to make one large sheet. A family's status could then be measured by the size of these macabre decorations as they are draped along the city walls."

Never read that one, what book is that from?

[Ilairon]

I believe it was in a WD article on Dark Elves since it's from Critical Hit: http://www.criticalhit.co.uk/content/view/86/49/1/2/

I seem to recall either 4th ed or 5th ed army books mentioning it too, but I'm not positive.

[Gaazruk]

Where do you guys learn all this DE lore? If its a book please tell me the name.

[Infrantic]

Where do you guys learn all this DE lore? If its a book please tell me the name.

Well mostly it's a book yeah.. The Dark Elf Army Book :p

And alot of info can also be found on GW's site..

[Xurré]

I love how that's described!! I can imagine the peaceful music in the background, "excited children wait at the doors of the Temple of Khaine".. I hope they put this in, I want a severed head:D
Harvest of Souls would be sooooo sweet. :mrgreen:


- Xurré

[Nathar]

Harvest of Souls would be sooooo sweet. :mrgreen:


- Xurré

Harvest of souls. Dark elf children, trick or treating. I can so see it happen!

[Ashnari Doomsong]

Oh, come on. Elves are a dying species, and this includes Dark Elves; wantonly killing off people at random serves no purpose of weeding out the weak, indeed it merely reduces numbers and morale; with a birth rate as low as that of the Elves, you do *not*, logically, keep build a surviving nation by killing off your own populace in huge sprees - not to mention that you'd lose several faithful maibd from resistance, since every adult Dark Elf is a trained warrior and keeps his or her own equipment at home; Death Night is the exception, I think, and meant to be as much a power-play as anything, because it shows that it is useless to resist when the Temple's out in force. If any random, moderately-ranked zealot was to sacrifice people for slight wrongdoings, especially influental types, she would be strung up and killed and thus embarass the Temple on a whole. The Temple does not want this, and neither does Malekith. This means that, following a purely logical reasoning, there is a blanket ban on sacrificing Dark Elves unless specifically told otherwise, and this 'otherwise' generally being Death Night.


On the War of Flesh and Blood, I am not entirely sure that it is official yet, or ever.

[Nathar]

I'd like to know what source you have telling you that dark elves are dying. Iv'e never seen it, and it's typically a good guys syndrom. Also, I believe I've seen quotes that they're removign that part from high elves and adding that the dwarfs are regaining some of they're lands from skaven and/or greenskin.

You are right though, you don't 'just' kill someone. Even in Naggaroth rules are needed to keep it minorly structured. Free killing would turn it to anarchy and that's the last thing wished by a couple of the most powerful people in the warhammer world.

[Thrakkesh]

No seriously. I didn't just make that up, I remember distinctly a bit of fluff that spelled out that the reason for all the backstabbing and even the allowance of Druchii to die by the temple's hand is to strengthen them as a whole.

Also Dark Elves don't have any baby low-birth rate problems. No fluff supports that, nor has there been any indication of thus. You're thinking Eldar, who are different.

[Nathar]

No seriously. I didn't just make that up, I remember distinctly a bit of fluff that spelled out that the reason for all the backstabbing and even the allowance of Druchii to die by the temple's hand is to strengthen them as a whole.

Also Dark Elves don't have any baby low-birth rate problems. No fluff supports that, nor has there been any indication of thus. You're thinking Eldar, who are different.

I believe there's fluff concerning high elves confirming that they have a bad birth rate. People just assume that goes for dark elves and wood elves too, but this is wrong!

[Bulwyf]

If you think about all the death in druchii society, from living in a cruel land with Chaos all around them plus natural predators to the society itself and then their wars/raids...they **have to be** breeding like rabbits to replace their numbers. Its great to read about thousands of druchii sacrificed to appease Khaine or killed in a battle but when you think about the reality there MUST be a booming population grown to support all of their bloodlust and warlike tendencies.

Otherwise they would have died off milennia ago.

[Ashnari Doomsong]

Sixth edition BRB. The sun of the elves is setting, yadda yadda. This means "elves". No doubt the Druchii are more efficient breeders than the Asur, but the main reason they consistently have more manpower is that they regularly field women - not to mention that fishing and raiding can't be that efficient in producing food, and Naggaroth is practically barren - Elves, High, Dark, Grey or Wood are dying out, slowly. There is no logical reason why something true for the High Elves as a species should not be so for the Dark Elves beyond "HE are good guys" and that doesn't make sense at all, from a purely in-fluff perspective.

[Ilairon]

Sixth edition BRB. The sun of the elves is setting, yadda yadda. This means "elves". No doubt the Druchii are more efficient breeders than the Asur, but the main reason they consistently have more manpower is that they regularly field women - not to mention that fishing and raiding can't be that efficient in producing food, and Naggaroth is practically barren - Elves, High, Dark, Grey or Wood are dying out, slowly. There is no logical reason why something true for the High Elves as a species should not be so for the Dark Elves beyond "HE are good guys" and that doesn't make sense at all, from a purely in-fluff perspective.

Said from the perspective of an Empire human who only knows the High Elves, of the Wood Elves, and that the Dark Elves may exist. Actually, the Asur regularly field everyone, from potters to artisans to craftsmen and statesmen. Since the Druchii make use of slave labor most of their population can be devoted to war rather than the agriculture and industry. You can think of it this way: most Dark Elves either work in what we would consider service industries or the military whereas High Elves are split between service industries, industry, and agriculture with only a few purely devoted to war. Actually fishing and raiding can be efficient in producing food, fishing alone can be quite efficient. Besides which the Druchii have a strong agricultural base around Clar Karond. Grey Elves? Anyway, there is a logical reason why something true for the High Elves as a species should not be true for the Dark Elves because their societies are completely different. In Dark Elf society life is harsh, short, nasty, brutal, and cheap for most (I'm reminded of Hobbes), which makes enjoying it while you can all the more important. Birth rates among Druchii are high, and when comparing the lore to a real world counterpoint it makes sense that they'd be very high; indeed, your average Druchii family is something like twenty large. Their high fertility rate is accompanied by a high mortality rate, keeping their population at or around replacement levels (keeping their population steady and in check, neither rising much nor decreasing much). The lore supports this, stating that "Dark Elves reproduce at a much higher rate than other Elves but this is offset by the many sacrifices made to Khaine and the fact that more Dark Elves die at the hands of other Dark Elves than their racial enemies."

[Nathar]

In Dark Elf society life is harsh, short, nasty, brutal

This is an important point to me. High elves don't breed much because in past times they didn't need to. There was no need because they lived very long.. all of them.

In dark elf society you don't live as long and hence that problem never arised. Dark elf society is as rough as it always were while high elves always had a decent life (when war wasn't going on).

[Thrakkesh]

As everyone else said, the problem with High Elves is strictly 'their problem.' It's not shared amongst the other two sub-races.

[Ashnari Doomsong]

That makes no sense at all. Necissity of breeding? Whenever did this play a part in anything? High Elves, living longer, should by all rights produce more children than the Dark Elves, because frankly, times have changed for the far worse for the High Elves. If it was simply necissity that made kids, the High Elves would be breeding like mad.

Dark Elven society being so dangerous as you claim would probably lead to *fewer* people risking pregnancies, because it would result in them being vulnerable as they carried their child. Your arguments are not making any sense at all.

Now, for the one whose arguments *are* making sense.

Firstly, I would like to know where, exactly, that quote is from; not doubting you or anything, simply wanting to know where you've got it from.

Secondly, a single agricultural centre isn't enough to supply Gond *and* Clar Karond with their enormous slave populations, even supplemented by fishing. And raids aren't usually dedicated to bringing food home, they're pillaging and getting slaves.

As for some of your other points, I simply disagree on the basis that such a society would swiftly collapse upon itself.

Oh, and Grey Elves are the few who stayed behind in the colonies and aren't Wood Elves. They generally drift about, some seeking the Phoenix Crown, others trying to make a living in the best way they can.

[Ilairon]

That makes no sense at all. Necissity of breeding? Whenever did this play a part in anything? High Elves, living longer, should by all rights produce more children than the Dark Elves, because frankly, times have changed for the far worse for the High Elves. If it was simply necissity that made kids, the High Elves would be breeding like mad.

Dark Elven society being so dangerous as you claim would probably lead to *fewer* people risking pregnancies, because it would result in them being vulnerable as they carried their child. Your arguments are not making any sense at all.

Now, for the one whose arguments *are* making sense.

Firstly, I would like to know where, exactly, that quote is from; not doubting you or anything, simply wanting to know where you've got it from.

Secondly, a single agricultural centre isn't enough to supply Gond *and* Clar Karond with their enormous slave populations, even supplemented by fishing. And raids aren't usually dedicated to bringing food home, they're pillaging and getting slaves.

As for some of your other points, I simply disagree on the basis that such a society would swiftly collapse upon itself.

Oh, and Grey Elves are the few who stayed behind in the colonies and aren't Wood Elves. They generally drift about, some seeking the Phoenix Crown, others trying to make a living in the best way they can.

It's from the 4th Edition Dark Elf Army book. BTW, thanks on the Grey Elves. I've only heard of High, Dark, Wood, Sea, and Shadow Elves (the latter, a fan creation rather than official IIRC) so I wasn't quite sure what you were talking about and figured it might be something akin to the Shadow Elves. I take it, they're from one of the older HE army books?

Now then, to the first point of necessity of breeding, I think you can look at history and find a fair few examples, the most recent of which that comes to mind was Nazi Germany offering women incentives to basically become baby-factories (as unflattering as that sounds) to produce soldiers for the war effort and boost morale. IIRC somewhat similar practices if to a lesser scale occurred in the Soviet Union and Japan during the same time.

As to living longer and producing more children, long-lived families in the first world tend to have less and less children, 1-2, maybe 3 at most on average. Many first world countries have fallen below or are in danger of falling below replacement levels (something around 2.14 births per female during her fertile years IIRC), and many others - the United States among them - would have experienced drops in population if not for immigration. Whereas third world countries tend to have much higher fertility levels, accompanied by equally high mortality levels. There are many reasons for this, the empowerment of women in the first world, the differentiating economies of the Global North and the Global South, religion, culture, and government involvement, 401ks, and healthcare among them. In the Global South, where many economies depend on agriculture and labor-based industries rather than capital-based industries it's important to have a lot of children. So, the more children you have, the more workers you have, the more money you bring in so you want a lot of children. Access to affordable and competent healthcare is limited in the best of times, meaning some children won't survive so you'll need to have more. The government has no social security, and corporations have no 401k so if you have no one to take care of you but your children (ie, more children are better). Poor justice systems mean families will often have to look out for themselves rather than relying on government employed police officers to help them (where larger numbers equals more protection much like a gang mentality).

For the Asur who for all intents and purposes only face external threats, have a peaceful internal state, geographically distant from the hardships of the world, with a fairly benevolent ruler, cosmopolitan-metropolitan lifestyle, and fair amount of wealth there's less reason to have children and more time to entertain the notion of true romance and love. Besides which, Asur society is generally speaking more conservative and sloth-like than its Druchii cousins. For your lowborn Dark Elf who lacks wealth, greater numbers means more security. Debauchery, sexual or otherwise, is less looked down on and often encouraged. Whether a god of war or a god of pleasure, their religion encourages reproduction much more than the intellectual-based pantheon followed by the remaining Elves of Ulthuan. The likelihood of a single Druchii of lowborn status significantly rising in the social strata of the Druchii is small, but the more numbers there are the greater the chance that at least one will make their way above their station. Besides, the more family members there are, the more wealth they create and the more connections they create.

As to the matter of a single agricultural center supporting a larger state is feasible and occurs in real life. Take the Midwest and the Prairie States of the US, which provide a great deal of the agriculture for many of the less agriculturally friendly states of the Southwest and the Northeast as well as export abroad to other countries. Or the Prairie Provinces of Canada. Or Hungary in Europe (I'll let the irony explain itself). Or parts of southern and central Russia for the whole of Russia. As for a state being unable to support itself on fishing alone when it has a poor agricultural base and soil that doesn't work well for farming, take any island state. They seem to be just fine. And for a first world example of this just look at Japan.

I'll certainly cede that raids aren't gathering food to bring back to Naggaroth (albeit I think it's fair to say they certainly supplement shipboard stores), but when it comes to a society like the Druchii falling apart, and I assume you're saying so because most Druchii serve in the military and those that aren't support a military industrial complex and service industries rather than agriculture or industry, I've got to disagree. A look at most first world countries shows a tendency towards service industries and away from pure industry and agriculture (to be fair, whether this can be maintained inevitably is another matter). But mainly, it succeeds for the Druchii due to the slave labor. Since slaves are performing all the menial tasks in cities, and mining, foresting, and farming out of them that leaves the Druchii with a lot of free time. Thus they can devote their time to warfare and a military-industrial complex.

[Ashnari Doomsong]

First of all, thank you for taking the time to type that out.

Now, for the argument.

It's from the 4th Edition Dark Elf Army book. BTW, thanks on the Grey Elves. I've only heard of High, Dark, Wood, Sea, and Shadow Elves (the latter, a fan creation rather than official IIRC) so I wasn't quite sure what you were talking about and figured it might be something akin to the Shadow Elves. I take it, they're from one of the older HE army books?
WHRFPG, v1. Old stuff, but AFAIK it's been repeated elsewhere; I do not own many fourth edition ABs, though, so you've got the better on me there. As for the quote in the AB, I can only offer up that things may have changed, and indeed seem to have so, judging from the consenseus reached at Druchii.net. Of course, this may very well be wistful thinking.

Now then, to the first point of necessity of breeding, I think you can look at history and find a fair few examples, the most recent of which that comes to mind was Nazi Germany offering women incentives to basically become baby-factories (as unflattering as that sounds) to produce soldiers for the war effort and boost morale. IIRC somewhat similar practices if to a lesser scale occurred in the Soviet Union and Japan during the same time.
Following you, and have thought along the same lines. My argument will come in a bit.


As to living longer and producing more children, long-lived families in the first world tend to have less and less children, 1-2, maybe 3 at most on average. Many first world countries have fallen below or are in danger of falling below replacement levels (something around 2.14 births per female during her fertile years IIRC), and many others - the United States among them - would have experienced drops in population if not for immigration. Whereas third world countries tend to have much higher fertility levels, accompanied by equally high mortality levels. There are many reasons for this, the empowerment of women in the first world, the differentiating economies of the Global North and the Global South, religion, culture, and government involvement, 401ks, and healthcare among them. In the Global South, where many economies depend on agriculture and labor-based industries rather than capital-based industries it's important to have a lot of children. So, the more children you have, the more workers you have, the more money you bring in so you want a lot of children. Access to affordable and competent healthcare is limited in the best of times, meaning some children won't survive so you'll need to have more. The government has no social security, and corporations have no 401k so if you have no one to take care of you but your children (ie, more children are better). Poor justice systems mean families will often have to look out for themselves rather than relying on government employed police officers to help them (where larger numbers equals more protection much like a gang mentality).
And therein, as they say, lies the crux of the issue; I actually disagree that the justice system would be so poor, because they *need* to keep their society up and running; magic comes easily, why not use it to curb murders?
Anyway, this is another discussion. Let me wander, for a moment, into the realm of hypothetical situations - based on your own premises, because there is no other way we can really discuss the issue.

The prospective Dark Elf mother(call her Moalna) wants more security. Ergo, she would do well to get some more children. However, she is in an unfortunate situation, namely that there are others out there, poised to take advantage of her long pregnancy and the period in which the child will be helpless; people are actively looking for a moment of weakness. She is left then, with a dilemma: Does she risk bearing a child for who knows how many months, reducing her capacity to counter-scheme and, if need be, defend herself and giving it effort at her own detriment, or does she wait for her rival to take the risk first, so that *she* will be the one weakened by the pregnancy? Moalna's condorum is, in a way, a rather easy one. She waits, obviously, for she has milleniae of years in which to do so; she could really use the extra child, but her rival would swoop in to take advantage. Now, Moalna is here, and thinking along these lines. But lo! So is her rival!
You are more than clever enough to grasp what I'm alluding to here, so I'll let you. My point is, unless there is some fundamental security that getting a child will not imperil yourself, you won't get that child - in a society as vicious as the one you see Dark Elf society to be, the period before that child can carry its weight is one of critical weakness, and a period which can and will be exploited. This will, I believe, lead to a proverbial game of Prisoner's Dilemma, which I'm sure you're familiar with. For those who aren't, I'll lay out the rules over the next two paragraphs:

There are two players, each of whom gets a card. On one is written "Co-operate!", on the other "Exploit!". Neither player knows which card the other has selected before the umpire gets the both of'em and reveals them; the system is as such:

If both co-operate, there is a fairly nice reward for both parts. If, however, one co-operates and the other exploits, the co-operator is ripped thoroughly off, recieving a penalty, while the exploiter is given a huge bonus. Both exploit, and both are given a small penalty or a small reward. You follow me so far? If you don't, Google or Wikipedia can probably explain better. If you do, good. Let's apply it, then.

Moalna wants to get a child to increase her status and security, et cetera. So does her rival. They could both get pregnant at the same time, it'd probably help a lot if the other was similarly weakened - after all, the status quo would be maintained, and both women would get substantial benefits in security and local power. If, however, one decides to wait until the other is weakened, and then strikes, she is free to get a child *and* she has removed one great threat. If she gets pregnant and the other doesn't, she might get killed, and she doesn't want that. So, the choice naturally becomes, wait the other out. Unfortunately, the other also sees this as a good idea, preferring not to be killed during pregnancy. So, the status quo is maintained, and neither get a child.

Now, I know that this is a highly unlikely scenario, but it can be applied on a larger scale, too - indeed, with more rivals, the risk simply grows while the reward diminishes somewhat. So, become pregnant and become pounced upon by your enemies, becomes the rule; it strangles the gang mentality in its crib. Society would collapse upon itself in two or three generations. My pardons for being excessively wordy, but I just reckoned I had to say that.

For the Asur who for all intents and purposes only face external threats, have a peaceful internal state, geographically distant from the hardships of the world, with a fairly benevolent ruler, cosmopolitan-metropolitan lifestyle, and fair amount of wealth there's less reason to have children and more time to entertain the notion of true romance and love. Besides which, Asur society is generally speaking more conservative and sloth-like than its Druchii cousins. For your lowborn Dark Elf who lacks wealth, greater numbers means more security. Debauchery, sexual or otherwise, is less looked down on and often encouraged. Whether a god of war or a god of pleasure, their religion encourages reproduction much more than the intellectual-based pantheon followed by the remaining Elves of Ulthuan. The likelihood of a single Druchii of lowborn status significantly rising in the social strata of the Druchii is small, but the more numbers there are the greater the chance that at least one will make their way above their station. Besides, the more family members there are, the more wealth they create and the more connections they create.
Part of this, I adressed above. Here comes the other part:

Elves are dying. The Asur don't want to die out, therefore it is necessary to make more children. Every day sees more militia-soldiers die at the hands of some foreign enemy, or at cultists in their own midst. Elves of all kinds are rather hendonistic creatures; indeed, Slaaneshi worship is, IIRC, as expressively forbidden in Naggaroth as it is on Ulthuan; the ideal is the mighty warrior. So, religion won't play a very large part. Security might play a part, but Ulthuan is very much like that third-world agriculturally based country you talked about - numbers means security, so they won't starve and they won't be killed by the beasts that roam parts of Ulthuan, for example in the Anulii. There's as much, if not more, incentive for the Asur to breed as there is for the Druchii.

As to the matter of a single agricultural center supporting a larger state is feasible and occurs in real life. Take the Midwest and the Prairie States of the US, which provide a great deal of the agriculture for many of the less agriculturally friendly states of the Southwest and the Northeast as well as export abroad to other countries. Or the Prairie Provinces of Canada. Or Hungary in Europe (I'll let the irony explain itself). Or parts of southern and central Russia for the whole of Russia. As for a state being unable to support itself on fishing alone when it has a poor agricultural base and soil that doesn't work well for farming, take any island state. They seem to be just fine. And for a first world example of this just look at Japan.
Aye, but a single city-state consumes vast amounts of food, and the fertile areas are not large(or weren't, last I checked); there aren't large enough areas of land to supply so many hungry mouths; the comparison with Japan is bad because Japan is, as you pointed out, an island nation, while Naggaroth is a huge on-land area geared mostly for war - the fish would, for a large part, have spoiled before reaching the in-land cities. Now, you may well argue that a mix of agriculture and fishing helps the food-supply, as it were, and I would have to say that this is entirely possible - but I doubt many Druchii would trust slaves with boats. They might start to think of *rowing* over the great sea or something.


I'll certainly cede that raids aren't gathering food to bring back to Naggaroth (albeit I think it's fair to say they certainly supplement shipboard stores), but when it comes to a society like the Druchii falling apart, and I assume you're saying so because most Druchii serve in the military and those that aren't support a military industrial complex and service industries rather than agriculture or industry, I've got to disagree. A look at most first world countries shows a tendency towards service industries and away from pure industry and agriculture (to be fair, whether this can be maintained inevitably is another matter). But mainly, it succeeds for the Druchii due to the slave labor. Since slaves are performing all the menial tasks in cities, and mining, foresting, and farming out of them that leaves the Druchii with a lot of free time. Thus they can devote their time to warfare and a military-industrial complex.
Well, partially. I'm saying that, because most Druchii seem very keen on killing each other, their personal schemes would leave little time for, well, anything. A society so bent on hating everyone but your own flesh and blood would kill itself. A society in which the Temple of Khaine has a free reign would utterly decimate and demoralize its population. I'm arguing, not against the fact that the Dark Elves are highly militarized(see real-world Sparta for an example of a real nation that's been like that), but against the point that the society is so vicious that life is, how did you phrase it? "Harsh, short, nasty and brutal", wasn't it? I'm arguing that a more harmonious society exists, at the lower levels at least. But again, that is another discussion for another time. Good night.

[Noli me Tangere]

Well, partially. I'm saying that, because most Druchii seem very keen on killing each other, their personal schemes would leave little time for, well, anything. A society so bent on hating everyone but your own flesh and blood would kill itself. A society in which the Temple of Khaine has a free reign would utterly decimate and demoralize its population. I'm arguing, not against the fact that the Dark Elves are highly militarized(see real-world Sparta for an example of a real nation that's been like that), but against the point that the society is so vicious that life is, how did you phrase it? "Harsh, short, nasty and brutal", wasn't it? I'm arguing that a more harmonious society exists, at the lower levels at least. But again, that is another discussion for another time. Good night.

It's actually notable that we've had real life societies built around things like mass sacrifice and some other components that exist in the fictional Dark Elf society. Those real world societies were actually very successful in their time and own right, only the confrontation of superior numbers or superior technology tended to bring them down, or assimilate them.

I think one of the things you're trying to do here is to apply morals and ways of living to the Dark Elves that they simply don't accept. These things don't demoralize them. This is their way of life. They're fanatical about it. They're decadent, they live fast and hard lives in which they try and absorb all the niceties and pleasures that they can within that time. Their plotting and scheming and murdering, to many (if not all) of them, is very much one of their pleasures, in fact.

The revel in just how horrid they are.

I think this best explained it though:

"Dark Elves reproduce at a much higher rate than other Elves but this is offset by the many sacrifices made to Khaine and the fact that more Dark Elves die at the hands of other Dark Elves than their racial enemies."

[V'raneth]

What a strange turn this thread has taken. I'm just going to add a few things that occurred to me.

If a Dark Elf woman were pregnant, there would be more people interested in that fact than simply herself. The sire and his clan would, potentially, be concerned with seeing the pregnancy to it's conclusion. So, assuming amiable relations between the sire's clan and the woman, why wouldn't they offer her some protection, either by guards or sanctuary?

I'm not going to speculate on magical contraceptives, so I'm going to assume that, considering the debaucherous and uninhibited nature of Dark Elf social life, pregnancy is not uncommon.

Besides, physical capacity is only one portion of a Dark Elf's power. There's still the potentially even more important characteristics of wealth, influence, and personal guile to contend with.

[Tiervexx]

Boobies have no effect on the man! Unless they are big...then we may be tempted to squeeze them...just b/c there so darn fun sometimes. =/

True...to get the full effect you got to yell "BOOBIES!" as you do it.


Dark Elven society being so dangerous as you claim would probably lead to *fewer* people risking pregnancies, because it would result in them being vulnerable as they carried their child. Your arguments are not making any sense at all.

You're assuming they'd also kill their pregnant women.

Human states of mind are not always useful for predicting the behavior of other races.

[Nathar]

You're assuming they'd also kill their pregnant women.

Human states of mind are not always useful for predicting the behavior of other races.

I assure you, few if any dark elves would care about their rival being pregnant or not. That said I doubt that'd be a problem. With the potential power and added wealth a new child can bring the rest of the house will defend it and hide it.

[Illya]

The lore supports this, stating that "Dark Elves reproduce at a much higher rate than other Elves but this is offset by the many sacrifices made to Khaine and the fact that more Dark Elves die at the hands of other Dark Elves than their racial enemies."

Why is there still any discussion that Dark Elves have lower reproduction rates? It's a quote, directly from the army book.

[Thrakkesh]

Why is there still any discussion that Dark Elves have lower reproduction rates? It's a quote, directly from the army book.

Quote it, name the book. Not the Warhammer fantasy book from the perspective of a Wizard please.

[Illya]

It's in the 4th edition Dark Elf army book, which I don't have handy at the moment.

Dark Elves have a higher birth rate than other elves, but this is offset by the fact they also have a higher mortality rate.

Something like that. In case you misunderstood, I meant that dark elves do in fact have a higher birthrate, while people were arguing that they didn't.

[Thrakkesh]

Yeah, apologies, I thought you were saying they had a low birth rate.

[Dracnye]

Tullaris of Har Ganeth - This is where my vote goes.

He is a vicious and violent killer who shows no remorse for the deeds he has done or for the one he will commit. He is the ultimate monster.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

well...i think my vote goes to Malus Darkblade.
he truly is a dark elf.
cold to the bone, prepared to do anything for his benefit

[Zappa]

"Morathi, The Hag Sorceress

Morathi is the mother (and lover) of the Witch King"

This is where you should stop reading. You people are sick... Dark Elves... Pfft..

With relationships like that you'd expect at least two thirds of the Dark Elf population to have misaligned eyes.

[Xurré]

With relationships like that you'd expect at least two thirds of the Dark Elf population to have misaligned eyes.
That'd still mean we're at least one-third better off than the greenskins. ;)


- Xurré

[Zappa]

That'd still mean we're at least one-third better off than the greenskins. ;)


- Xurré


Most of those are from blows to the head. Not that it stops da biggis' boyz.

[ggchan]

To be fair, I’ll be first to answer my own question.

To be honest, I’m a bit torn between Morathi and Hellebron. They’re both Witch Elves (and I had to vote for a Witch Elf). Morathi is also a traitorous Slaaneshi wh*re. :p She is also very powerful and has access to the true Cauldron of Blood (and with it eternal beauty, which is a quite attractive proposition). But she is also just as much a Sorceress as a Witch Elf and as such Hellebron tends to be more ‘pure’ in her Witch Elf-iness. So I ended up voting for Hellebron, but it’s only by a very, very narrow margin.

In the end though, they’re all cool. ;)


- Xurré

Morathi wins my vote, for so many reasons, but the greatest to me, is the fact that she is a Druchii to the core. She is decadant beyond reality, she is Self absorbed, and Serves herself first, In the fact that her son and lover are the sole ruler of the Druchii people. She embodies what it means to be a Druchii.

[Xurré]

Morathi wins my vote, for so many reasons, but the greatest to me, is the fact that she is a Druchii to the core. She is decadant beyond reality, she is Self absorbed, and Serves herself first, In the fact that her son and lover are the sole ruler of the Druchii people. She embodies what it means to be a Druchii.
I can see that. And yet I can't shake the feeling that she's rather over-the-top. I mean she's the greatest Witch Elf and she is the greatest Sorceress. She's a great political leader, and not only head but starter of how many cults (Temple of Khaine, Cult of Pleasure, Sorceress Convents, etc). She's lived forever, is extremely powerful and incredibly beautiful (moreso than any other women on the planet). And on top of that she's the pinnacle of evil too.

I mean, is there anything she isn't best at?

No, of the two Witches (and I just had to vote for one of them) I think Hellebron is more interesting because she's flawed. She's ugly, doesn't have much of any magical powers and isn't (yet) at the top so there's somewhere that she can go. On top of that I'm sure she's more seething with hatred than Morathi is.

Then again, seems few agree with me on this. :p


- Xurré

[Tae]

"Morathi, The Hag Sorceress

Morathi is the mother (and lover) of the Witch King"

This is where you should stop reading. You people are sick... Dark Elves... Pfft..

With relationships like that you'd expect at least two thirds of the Dark Elf population to have misaligned eyes.

Actually, at the risk of getting serious for a second, the most recent survey I've seen (not that I keep an eye out for these things - no seriously, I don't !) says that related people's children are only about 2% more likely to have birth defects, it's like 5% instead of 3% or something similar.

[Selendor]

After reading over the War of Flesh and Blood, I have to give some props to Khael Vraneth. I've always had a soft spot for Executioners, and that guy's just got style. Taking out a Slaaneshi champion, killing every citizen in Ghrond regardless of affiliation just to route out all the Cultists, holding off 3 Chaos armies and the Slaaneshi insurgency after retaking the tower of Ghrond...

Oh, and he made a point of publicly beheading one Sorceress each day just to prove a point. *swoons* I think I have a man-crush. :-P

[Thrakkesh]

I can see that. And yet I can't shake the feeling that she's rather over-the-top. I mean she's the greatest Witch Elf and she is the greatest Sorceress. She's a great political leader, and not only head but starter of how many cults (Temple of Khaine, Cult of Pleasure, Sorceress Convents, etc). She's lived forever, is extremely powerful and incredibly beautiful (moreso than any other women on the planet). And on top of that she's the pinnacle of evil too.

I mean, is there anything she isn't best at?

. :p


- Xurré

I watched her get eaten alive by a Tzeentchian Chaos Lord, does that count?

Orange Fire should be banned, seriously.

[Estebar]

I can see that. And yet I can't shake the feeling that she's rather over-the-top. I mean she's the greatest Witch Elf and she is the greatest Sorceress. She's a great political leader, and not only head but starter of how many cults (Temple of Khaine, Cult of Pleasure, Sorceress Convents, etc). She's lived forever, is extremely powerful and incredibly beautiful (moreso than any other women on the planet). And on top of that she's the pinnacle of evil too.

I mean, is there anything she isn't best at?

I have my suspicions that those who created Malekith and Morathi were very much inspired by Alexander the Great, and his mother Olympias. Alexander was descended from the semi-divine Greek hero Heracles (Hercules) on his father's side, and inherited military genius from both sides of his family. His mother Olympias was a princess, a devout worshipper of Dionysus (some suspected her of witchcraft), a keeper of serpents and a ruthlessly ambitious individual. Growing to despise her husband, she proclaimed it was Zeus himself who had impregnated her, thereby declaring her son a possessor of divine properties. This was the beginning of a tangled web she weaved for her son, pushing him on to glory and greatness. There was even a dispute over Alexander's legitimacy as heir to the Macedonian throne, just as there was with Malekith.

Anyway, I had a point here somewhere... Yes! I'd say the reason that Morathi has insured herself so much is because otherwise, a woman of her standing attempting to have so much influence over Malekith would be tortured to death on the spot. In order to confidently be Malekith's most trusted confidante, lover and advisor, she's had to secure herself several layers of safety netting, earning the Witch King's respect through proving herself as a mighty warrior, witch and politician, and tying herself to the very foundations of Druchii society to keep the Witch King's murderous intentions at bay. Not to mention, if anyone other than her was so presumptious as to try to inspire the Witch King or urge him to do anything, they would be put to death.

In the Darkblade series, the Sorceress Eldire advises her son to make his own destiny, force himself into the template of any prophecised warrior, obliterate any portents foretelling his doom, and basically achieve any goal by wanting it and trying hard enough to get it without dying, (although apparently, even in death, with enough willpower you can bring yourself back... how many times should Malus have died by now?) Morathi embodies this message which is so fundamental to the Druchii race better than anyone. Like Olympias, who took to the battlefield, assassinated and executed her way to the top (even finally becoming mistress of her kingdom for a short while before being arrested), Morathi has secured so much for herself that no one other than herself could possibly hope to get as close to the Witch King, urging him on to secure the throne he wants more than anything else in the world.

In short, she needs to appear as the best at everything in order to inspire and influence her son, and secure herself a safe place alongside the Witch King without the risk of death.

Also, I hope in the next edition of the Dark Elf army book they remove her Special Character rules. Like Alarielle the Everqueen and Ariel the Fairy Queen, Morathi should move into the background and become a near-mythical character, mentioned in rumours and whispers within the lore. In fact, I think she should become the Dark Mother, or at least be rumoured to be the Dark Mother incarnate. After all, if Morathi's going to Hell, she's bringing every last Druchii with her, and they all know it. ;)

[Linkusmax]

Irregardless High Elves are the most populus race of elves in the warhammer world.

Pre Sundering -2751

Asur Empire ( 100 % ): 23 992 658

Ulthuan ( 70 % ): 16 794 860
Colonies ( 30 % ): 7 197 797

Malekith ( 15.5 % ): 3 718 862
Caledor ( 84.5 % ): 20 273 796


Post Sundering -2723

Naggaroth ( 5.5 % ): 1 319 596
Ulthuan ( 46 % ): 11 036 622
Colonies ( 28.5 % ): 6 837 907


Post 1st Civil War -2197

Naggaroth ( 4.5 % ): 1 079 669
Ulthuan ( 45 % ): 10 796 696
Colonies ( 30 % ): 7 197 797

Death tool
Druchii: 2 639 193
Asur: 2 639 192


Pre War of the Beard -1997

Naggaroth ( 4.7 % ): 1 127 655
Ulthuan ( 47 % ): 11 276 549
Colonies ( 31.5 % ): 7 557 687
Karaz Ankor ( 100 % ): 8 104 000


Post War of the Beard main phase and Pre 2nd Civil War -1601

Naggaroth ( 5.2 % ): 1 247 618
Ulthuan ( 40 % ): 9 597 063
Colonies ( 20 % ): 4 798 531
Karaz Ankor ( 70 % ): 5 672 800


Post Great Recall and Time of Woes -1501 / 1499

Naggaroth ( 5.3 % ): 1 271 611
Ulthuan ( 53 % ): 12 716 198
Colonies ( 5 % ): 1 199 630
Karaz Ankor ( 66/33 % ): 5 348 640 / 2 674 432
Old World Elves ( 1% ): 240 000 (this number has remained largely unchanged apart from the fact that the % of Gray Elves has fallen and Wood Elves has risen)

War of the Beard Death Toll
Asur: 4 438 642
Dawii: 2 755 360


Pre Scouring -986

Naggaroth ( 5.9 % ): 1 415 567
Ulthuan ( 49.8 % ): 11 948 343
Colonies ( 5 % ): 1 199 630


Post Scouring -693

Naggaroth ( 5 % ): 1 199 630
Ulthuan ( 53 % ): 11 396 512
Colonies ( 5 % ): 1 199 630


End of the Age of Peace +1121

Naggaroth ( 7.7 % ): 1 847 434
Ulthuan ( 37.7 % ): 9 045 232
Colonies ( 5 % ): 1 199 630


Post 3rd Civil War +1502

Naggaroth ( 8 % ): 1 919 412
Ulthuan ( 35 % ): 8 397 430
Colonies ( 5 % ): 1 199 630


Pre the Great War against Chaos +2301

Naggaroth ( 9.7 % ): 2 327 288
Ulthuan ( 31.6 % ): 7 581 679
Colonies ( 5 % ): 1 199 630


Post the Great War against Chaos +2303

Naggaroth ( 9 % ): 2 159 339
Ulthuan ( 30 % ): 7 197 797
Colonies ( 3 % ): 719 779


Pre 5th Civil War +2520

Naggaroth ( 9.5 % ): 2 279 302
Ulthuan ( 29.2 % ): 7 005 856
Colonies ( 3 % ): 719 779
Karaz Ankor ( 6.7 % ): 548 442


Post Storm of Chaos +2523

Naggaroth ( 9.1 % ): 2 183 332
Ulthuan ( 28.6 % ): 6 861 900
Colonies ( 3 % ): 719 779
Karaz Ankor ( 6.5 % ): 526 760

Elder Races

Druchii: 2 183 332
Asur: 7 581 680
Asrai: 200 000
Asthoi: 40 000
Dawii: 633 222

Total capable of Bearing Arms:
Asur: 3 215 769
Druchii: 1 855 832
Asrai: 170 000

Now here is where difference is made.

Total number under arms at all times:
Asur: 409 131
Druchii: 927 916
Asrai: 100 000

[Nathar]

While I liked the read Linkusmax and didn't feel it was unrealistic, I can't help wonder what your source is?

Also what you're showing supports what we've been saying. Druchii are a (slowly) growing population while the Asur slowly decrease in numbers.

Finally am I the only one who thinks

Death tool
Druchii: 2 639 193
Asur: 2 639 192

is too alike? Just seems kinda silly to me!

Asthoi are the sea elves or?

[Ilairon]

I'd also have an interest in the source.

[Selendor]

Irregardless High Elves

I stopped reading. *cringe* :-P

"Regardless" already has a negative implication due to the "less" suffix tacked on at the end, so there's no need to at a negative prefix (ir) to the beginning of the word. It's nonstandard according to Webster.

Pet peeve of mine. :-P And the corporate fatcat dictionary editors are slowly but surely caving, so it's up to me to thwart the abomination that is "Irregardless" wherever I am able.

Please continue. :D

[Linkusmax]

Research done by Gilead of Asur.org.uk using a variety of sources.

[Tiervexx]

Also, I hope in the next edition of the Dark Elf army book they remove her Special Character rules. Like Alarielle the Everqueen and Ariel the Fairy Queen, Morathi should move into the background and become a near-mythical character, mentioned in rumours and whispers within the lore. In fact, I think she should become the Dark Mother, or at least be rumoured to be the Dark Mother incarnate. After all, if Morathi's going to Hell, she's bringing every last Druchii with her, and they all know it. ;)

Though Morathi must go through a lot to build up her image the dark elves are often in enough trouble so she has to let her power be known.

As impressive as she is she just isn't a Sigmare or a Nagash.

Sigmare was invincable then became a full god.

Nagash wiped out a great civilization, reanimated all of them with one huge spell that continued to work to create the Tomb Kings as they are now, and was only beaten when he was assassinated in his sleep by a wild blade forged with the combine powers of the council of 13.

And Nagash was still really weakened when Sigmare fought him...

[Estebar]

Though Morathi must go through a lot to build up her image the dark elves are often in enough trouble so she has to let her power be known.

As impressive as she is she just isn't a Sigmare or a Nagash.

Sigmare was invincable then became a full god.

Nagash wiped out a great civilization, reanimated all of them with one huge spell that continued to work to create the Tomb Kings as they are now, and was only beaten when he was assassinated in his sleep by a wild blade forged with the combine powers of the council of 13.

And Nagash was still really weakened when Sigmare fought him...

I don't mean raise Morathi up to Godhood; Ariel wasn't a god, she just became the earthly avatar of Isha, and Alarielle is certainly not divine, though she is powerful enough that the weather in Ulthuan is affected by her mood. Morathi seems to have enough qualifications as these other females to be put on a similar level of Special Character celebrityism. Her tabletop rules certainly don't do her justice.

[V'raneth]

Sigmar was invincible then became a full god. Says a bunch of squabbling dirt farmers. I don't buy it!

[Estebar]

Uh... sorry to necro this thread, but given the previous discussion of Hellebron, and interest in her as the High Priestess of the Temple of Khaine, I figured this would be the most appropriate thread for it.

This is mostly for Xurré's benefit. (http://www.games-workshop.de/home/veranstaltungen/games_day/2007/danach/GoldenDemon/3-1.jpg) ;) Games Day 2007 Hellebron entry!

[Heno]

Hellebron, she's an off the rails nun, gotta love that :D

[Barundin]

Research done by Gilead of Asur.org.uk using a variety of sources.

Such as? No GW fluff piece I have ever seen has been as exact as those numbers you have written. I took a look at that thread, and it seriously seems like he is just pulling the numbers out of his .

OT: Shadowblade is ace :p

[Xurré]

Uh... sorry to necro this thread, but given the previous discussion of Hellebron, and interest in her as the High Priestess of the Temple of Khaine, I figured this would be the most appropriate thread for it.

This is mostly for Xurré's benefit. (http://www.games-workshop.de/home/veranstaltungen/games_day/2007/danach/GoldenDemon/3-1.jpg) ;) Games Day 2007 Hellebron entry!
Oooh, very nice. Thanks. :D


- Xurré

[Mirac]

Whichever one of those is the least evil. I like that one.

[Xurré]

That would be Kouran. :p


- Xurré