Witch Elf Possibities.

[roadkizzle]

Alright, there have been millions of Witch Elf vs. Corsair threads, but this is not one of them.

I don't care if you want corsairs, executioners, black guard, assassins, sorceresses, shades, or cold one knights in the army.

My question is... if, or when probably, witch elves are implemented in this game, how will they be done so? The four ways that I can imagine are as such..

Plain melee DPS: This is the basic way, that I've always been thinking of Witch Elves. Just an EXTREMELY lightly armored, quick character with two poisoned blades. If you want frenzy on this character, please post a blurb on how you imagine the frenzy would function.

DPS Melee/caster: A DPS character using two poisoned blades as well as "blood magic". The idea of blood magic comes from the Black Library books on Malus Darkblade. I would imagine you would get some sort of "Blood points" through doing damage in melee, which you would then be able to use to cast DOTs, DD, or Debuffs. Maybe a self lifesteal or two to help staying alive.

DPS Anti-Magic: A DPS character whose function is to hunt down enemy spellcasters. The witch elf could have high resistances towards magic, an arsenal of interrupts, silences, dispels, and any other abilities used to help shut down, and kill enemy magic users.

DPS Melee/Healer: A DPS character who uses blood from enemies, either through the "Blood points" from the caster version, or just a bunch of lifesteal's that give either target friendly units, or your entire group health.

Or OTHER: If you can think of any other roles that a Witch Elf could be designed to be in, please share with us your ideas.

[kharnage]

I selected straight up DPS.

WE are totally deadly in hand to hand combat. Any magic would come from something like the Cauldron of Blood.

I love the Malus novels, but I would rather not have blood magic in the game (or if it is in the game, keep it to a minimum)

[V'raneth]

I put melee DPS. I agree that a smidgen of magic would be nice though. Using blood to call in favors from Khaine and what not. I think they should be purely for the enhancement of the Witch Elf herself though. No aid to anyone else.

[Xurré]

Pretty much straight-up melee DPS I would think.

Though I definitely can see some blood magic too. Most likely restricted to high level only and even then fairly minimal. Just something to give a bit of added flavor.

I can’t see them as any kind of healers whatsoever and I don’t really see how they would have any particular “anti-magic” abilities (the best way to get rid of a magic user is to decrease their hitpoints as fast as possible ;)).

Any DoTs, DD, debufs, etc that they’d do would probably come from frenzy, poison use and general attacks.


- Xurré

[Garthilk]

I doubt we'll see Witch Elves at all as a playable career.

[Thoden Firehammer]

I agree with Gar and there are several reasons why
1. It's a female only class
2. It would attract too many loosers to Dark Elves
3. Why choose a female only melee dps class when you can a both male and female corsair

There are more reasons .. but thoes are the best ...now i'll give you a slighlt moment of silcen for the loss of your beloved Witch elf .....ok silence over go cry somewhere else :P

[V'raneth]

I agree with Gar and there are several reasons why
1. It's a female only class Like the Chaos Chosen is only male, except with a far weaker excuse?
2. It would attract too many loosers to Dark Elves Get real.
3. Why choose a female only melee dps class when you can a both male and female corsair Because Corsairs are not damage oriented. They are armor oriented.

There are more reasons .. but thoes are the best Do tell. I'm pretty sure we've heard them all and none were particularly convincing. Were you going to say something like, "but they don't have any armor!" because we've already established that they do and you can see it on several of their models. Hmm. I guess there was only one other commonly cited "reason" not to have Witch Elves. Maybe you can dream up some more?

But I'm curious what reasons Garth considered when he decided to weigh in with his single sentence.

From the get-go there was only one knock against Witch Elves - their gender requirement. With the Chosen and Josh's statement that there will be more gender specific classes, that has gone right out the window. There is now no reason Witch Elves couldn't be included, and a mountain of reasons why they should.

[roadkizzle]

This is not a thread to argue over whether or not witch elves are going to be in as playable characters.

THIS is a thread to discuss, how they would be implemented if they do. If you want to have another argument over which class is going to be melee dps, then create a new thread.


@ everyone else. Since, most people are just choosing straight melee dps, how would you suggest they differentiate it from the rest of the melee dps classes? Or even for that matter, from any other games melee dps? The only aspect that I could find that would make them different would be frenzy, but I can't think of an implementation of frenzy which would make it much different from a bog-standard dps class of any other game, or else any of the other dps classes in this one.

[V'raneth]

The Witch Elves are all about blood sacrifices, and that lends itself all too easily into a class gimmick. The more blood they spill, punctuated with big boosts from sacrificial finisher moves, imbues them with greater and greater gifts from Khaine. I imagine they'd mostly take the form of speed and damage buffs for herself. If you really wanted to make it awesome, and I'm not sure a T rating would allow this, you could have her get bloodier as her power increases, until she's practically dripping with crimson glory.

Couple that with the ability to apply specialty poisons and drugs, perhaps in the form of different tactics, and you've got a very nasty and exciting character class.

[Foofmonger]

Even though I don't think WE will be included, I picked Anti-magic.

I don't know how well that fits with the lore, but I love the idea of the anti-magic meeler.

[Lorik]

If I'm safe to assume that the character portrayed fighting in the glitzy teaser video was a Witch Elf, then it only makes sense that it would be a pure melee dps -

Didn't see her throw a single heal, that's for sure :P

[Foofmonger]

If I'm safe to assume that the character portrayed fighting in the glitzy teaser video was a Witch Elf, then it only makes sense that it would be a pure melee dps -

Didn't see her throw a single heal, that's for sure :P

She blocks a giant magic attack her with her swords.

So going by the video, it would actually be anti-magic/meele dps.

And if you go by the video, she drinks her own blood and starts fighting again. That would be a cool mechanic lol.

[Gemini]

I've always been in love with the anti-caster sort, so I voted for that. I don't think that will happen though, but I can dream.

[Nathar]

Melee-dps hard on. Witch elves cast no magic in lore or TT and because of that I personally don't think they should in the game. The only source for this that shows magic is the Darkblade series and while being a great read I don't think they're accurate on that point.

No magical witch elves. They're not witches in the classical understanding!

[Selandri]

In the lore Witch Elves are not allowed to use magic. So it is possible for them to learn it, in theory, but unless they change the lore ( Which, fair cop, is fairly old and lore changes have happened between different editions army books ) they'd be going against the Druchii law.

Anti-magic, I'm see-sawing on. Blocking a spell with your swords does not necessarily mean they have anti magic abilities, simply that it was a magic missile which they blocked with a physical obstruction.

My gut would say melee DPS then work out the kinks from there :)

[Zoatibix]

I would go straight DPS route.

Very high DPS compared to other DPS classes but armour is significantly less than say a Choppa. Dodges and positional attacks to keep ones self alive. I can see a WE player having to be very quick with their movement keys/mouse to stay alive in a pitched battle.

Obviously we Druchii players are naturally superior to our allies. :rolleyes:

Dark Elves manovere to hit hard and fast, trying to destroy the enemy with a descisive blow, rather than wearing the enemy down or outliving them. Witch Elves exemplify this.

Rather than gaining and spending frenzy points the WE could have a meter that she needs to keep within Certain levels - or pitches - too low and she looses Frenzy. Too high and she looses the 'technical' abilities (disarm, cutting of sinews to slow enemies, etc) and goes to the Avatar of Khaine stage (highest damage, pain resistence, but lower dodge rating, etc).

Sometimes one 'Pitch' of Frenzy is useful, other times the other one is. A WE player will need to try and control which Pitch she is in. Keep spamming attacks you can find yourself in the 'wrong' pitch for the moment and lose your more 'tactical' abilities.

As to anti-magic...I guess it could be used to offset their lack of physical armour. I dont' know if armour will be ignored by magic in WAR?

While it is adding something they don't have...a lot of the proponents for the Corsair have been doing just that - Xbows, poison, nets, etc.

However, there is a strong lore bais against WE having 'active' magic. So I think anti-magic would have to be anti-the spellcaster or certain Frenzy abilities giving added resistence against mind-affecting or CC type spells.

Then we have War Shouts for morale effects. Various types of poison. Throwing daggers or darts. Potions for self-buffs. Acrobatics to dodge enemy DPSers, evade enemy tanks, out-position and flank the foe, etc.

I would post more but I'm strapped for time. Stop cheering.

[Estebar]

From here: (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14365&page=3)If you look at more powerful Witch Elf units on the TT they don't have magic, they have magic resistance. Khorne eats/crushes/smashes spells and spellcasters. Khaine and Khorne have similarities, some believing one to be an aspect of the other (particularly considering the older edition Witch Elf models wore Khorne symbols). The Brides of Khaine are forbidden to use sorcery and have a "Sect Emnity" with the Sorceresses.

I went with Melee DPS/Anti-Magic.

[roadkizzle]

Zoatibix, I actually really like your suggestion for the frenzy implementation. As you get going, you have relatively low damage but high technical abilities, but as you gain frenzy you gain access to more powerful attacks, but you simultaneously lose access to the more technical ones. I feel that class could take a bit of getting used to, and mastering the ability to keep the bar where is best for your situation, or at least to a point where you can manage it.

[Zoatibix]

Precisely. A balancing act versus the all out ferocity of the Choppa.

[Xurré]

Rather than gaining and spending frenzy points the WE could have a meter that she needs to keep within Certain levels - or pitches - too low and she looses Frenzy. Too high and she looses the 'technical' abilities (disarm, cutting of sinews to slow enemies, etc) and goes to the Avatar of Khaine stage (highest damage, pain resistence, but lower dodge rating, etc).

Sometimes one 'Pitch' of Frenzy is useful, other times the other one is. A WE player will need to try and control which Pitch she is in. Keep spamming attacks you can find yourself in the 'wrong' pitch for the moment and lose your more 'tactical' abilities.
I wish I'd read this before I made my frenzy suggestion post in the other thread... I quite like this idea too. :)

Add that one to the list of possible unique implementations for the ability. ;)


- Xurré

[Selandri]

According to Tome of Corruption elves ( I do not believe it states High or Dark here ) see the difference between Khaine and Khorne as one of degree.

Empire lore has Khaine as the brother of Morr.

To a Druchii, Khaine is the god of controlled violence, of ritual and religion, while Khorne is the uncontrolled anger of a rabid dog.

Paraphrased somewhat but the general intent is there.

[Gemini]

Rather than gaining and spending frenzy points the WE could have a meter that she needs to keep within Certain levels - or pitches - too low and she looses Frenzy. Too high and she looses the 'technical' abilities (disarm, cutting of sinews to slow enemies, etc) and goes to the Avatar of Khaine stage (highest damage, pain resistence, but lower dodge rating, etc).

Sometimes one 'Pitch' of Frenzy is useful, other times the other one is. A WE player will need to try and control which Pitch she is in. Keep spamming attacks you can find yourself in the 'wrong' pitch for the moment and lose your more 'tactical' abilities.



That would be crazy-awesome mechanic.

[Foofmonger]

That would be crazy-awesome mechanic.

Agreed. While I don't really like WEs. That mechanic is pure genius.

[Zoatibix]

Thank you. :D

[Azrayne2.0]

DPS Melee/Healer: A DPS character who uses blood from enemies, either through the "Blood points" from the caster version, or just a bunch of lifesteal's that give either target friendly units, or your entire group health.

That's what I'm expecting, tbh. They already use blood to restore their own youth don't they? It's not 'that' much of a stretch to have them restoring other people's health as well.

[Ceilingcat]

According to Tome of Corruption elves ( I do not believe it states High or Dark here ) see the difference between Khaine and Khorne as one of degree.

Empire lore has Khaine as the brother of Morr.

To a Druchii, Khaine is the god of controlled violence, of ritual and religion, while Khorne is the uncontrolled anger of a rabid dog.

Paraphrased somewhat but the general intent is there.

Regardless, they're the same god. I'm more familiar with 40k, so I'll use evidence from there, but the gods are generally the same in both (except that Sigmar is likely a missing Primarch, and is now an actual god instead of the corpse of one chained to a life support system).

The Craftworld Eldar worship Khaine, the elven god of blood and war, just as the Dark Elves do (Dark Eldar have a hate/worship relationship with Slaanesh). They have a weird warrior cult which focuses 100% on combat, and they really hate Slaanesh. But the best proof is the Avatar. The Avatar (a huge murder machine with iron for blood) is summoned in a ritual wherein a chosen champion is possessed by it. This kills the champion and turns him into the Avatar, which is actually a Bloodthirster with a different form. Plus it has a stylized version of the Mark of Khorne on its head.

[Dustandpolos]

I'm not disagreeing about Khorne/Khaine as I'm not entirely sure, but you have to be a bit careful comparing 40k and Fantasy. For example, the Eldar pantheon of gods is dead, wiped out by Slaanesh except Loec and the shattered remains of Khaine. Now Loec and Khaine are the same in Fantasy, but Slaanesh hasn't won, Khaine isn't shattered, Loec doesn't rescue Elven souls from being devoured on death and Isha, Asuryan and the other gods are all very much alive. Its more a case of the same themes and names being used in two separate settings, each with its own twists, than the two settings actually being interconnected.

I think there was some attempt to try to connect fantasy and 40k, but it fell through when they realised if Fantasy was just a feudal world in the 40k universe separated by a warp storm, why aren't there units of Chaos Space Marines rampaging through the Old World? Why isn't Altdorf burning around columns of renegade Imperial tanks? Why aren't the Eldar helping their lost kin? Didn't we try to kill off the Squats once already? And so on.

[Selandri]

To you, perhaps. To the elves and to scholars in the Old World, they may or may not be. The elves certainly deny it, scholars hotly debate it.

Plus Games Workshop has been trying to differentiate between Fantasy and 40k for a while. They don't intend 40k to be 'Fantasy in space'.

I tend to err on the side of indecision. There are numerous Gods in the real world that have resemblances to one another but I think I'd be slaughtered if I suggested they were different facets of the same being ;)

[Foofmonger]

To you, perhaps. To the elves and to scholars in the Old World, they may or may not be. The elves certainly deny it, scholars hotly debate it.

Plus Games Workshop has been trying to differentiate between Fantasy and 40k for a while. They don't intend 40k to be 'Fantasy in space'.

I tend to err on the side of indecision. There are numerous Gods in the real world that have resemblances to one another but I think I'd be slaughtered if I suggested they were different facets of the same being ;)

Only because the majority of people loathe truth.

[Illya]

Only because the majority of people loathe truth.

Indeed.

As for Khaine, I believe he is an aspect of Khorne. Meaning, Khorne is all killing, brutal, violent, controlled, etc. Khaine would be one of his aspects, namely murder.

I can't remember where I read it, so it could very well be wrong, but I do believe the two are linked.

As for the link between Fantasy and 40K, it no longer exists. GW split them a while back.

[Zoatibix]

That's what I'm expecting, tbh. They already use blood to restore their own youth don't they? It's not 'that' much of a stretch to have them restoring other people's health as well.

Only the Hags (the oldest and most powerful of Witches) use the Cauldron and that is part of a massive once per year ritual.

Only Mortahai is allowed to be both a Hag and a Sorceress.

Allowing other Witch Elves to cast spells is a big leap.

[Tae]

Only the Hags (the oldest and most powerful of Witches) use the Cauldron and that is part of a massive once per year ritual.

Only Mortahai is allowed to be both a Hag and a Sorceress.

Allowing other Witch Elves to cast spells is a big leap.

Comparable to allowing Khorne to field magic casters (and given the similarities between Khaine and Khorne (and the arguable point of them being the same god)) it's not merely 'comparable', it's virtually identical.

No, Witch Elves in anything other than a melee role (be that straight out DPS or possible things like positional debuffs (though they seem a bit too frenzied for that kind of tactical precssion) will just be a complete failure on Mythic's part lore wise.

[Rotgut_Eadsmasha]

A very fast(perhaps the fastest) Melee/DPS'er that uses a verity poisons. That's where that Crafting thing comes in! Fast moving, lots of attacks, light armor but very hard to hit, low hit points.