No Female Chosen = Witch Elves?

[DaddysGirl]

With the announcement of no female chosen (and possibly marauders???); are there any possible arguments left against the inclusion of witch elves as the Dark Elf army's melee DPS class?

Now that we established the fact that Mythic will do whatever they want with class genderization, this strongly puts witch elves in the running even more than they have been being an iconic and powerful Dark elf class.

There has been a lot of arguing against witch elves among this forum though, with ideas ranging from replacing the Melee DPS class with 2 varieties including Brides of Khaine and assassins or some such, or even throwing out witch elves and putting in corsairs.

Do people still have any of those inputs? :confused:

I for one am rejoicing, because it is only fair the elves will have some female only classes to offset the male domination of the other races/classes. Its only fair.

[Azrayne2.0]

I never saw them having an issue with it. They did gender specific classes in DAOC, no reason to expect they wouldn't in WAR.

[Azyrn]

I am not only expecting Witch Elves i am hoping for them. I love witch elves i personally wouldn't play one and i hope its not between witch elves or corsairs because although i do love witch elves i vastly prefer Corsairs.

[Kuari]

Never needed no female Chosen for Witch Elves... we already had Greenskins

[Skalding]

I'm doubtful of on the subject of the inclusion of Witch Elves. While yes, it would make sense there would be a female only option, I don't think Mythic is so stupid as to make that mistake. As Impossible Chaos (SLM) pointed out (I'm a little too lazy to actually link it) some women are upset that they can't play as a heavily-armored female character that aren't the stereotypical image presented by MMO creators. It's an a gender atrocity, more or less, when women are forced to play as characters that are for all intensive purposes Barbie, despite the many pointy swords and blood.

Which is ultimately the reason I am not expecting Witch Elves at release. Mythic would receive so much for enforcing that image, as female characters existing solely for the lonely middle-aged single male gamer who likes seeing animated nudity. It doesn't matter whether the majority of gamers are male, women do play these games and it's disconcerting that they won't be allowed to role whatever class they please, the Chosen in particular.

Point being, Mythic is already receiving generous amounts of flak for excluding Female Chosen (Which are Lore appropriate), do you really believe they'd risk the longevity and acceptance of their game over something like this? A Class like Corsairs are just as easily implanted, with much less argument and discontent.

EDIT: On the subject of DaoC classes, very few classes were limited on Gender, allowing women to access any play-style. With WAR, if a woman wants to play a melee DPS/Tanking class, and play as her own gender, she'll be forced to play as a Witch Elf. And Witch Elf hardly wear any clothing, and it's again enforcing the unacceptable image of the female gender in games. Once more, in regards to DaoC, while there were classes exclusively available to the different sexes, none of them wore practically nothing for protection, and the models were done rather tastefully.

If women want to play as a massive, orc-sized sword wielding, armor-encased badass I see no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to. It's not because of Lore obviously. If it's a matter of laziness, then it's a major issue in the development cycle, if it's a matter of gender, then it's a societal issue. Those are always messy fights.

[Commentaris]

witch elves aren't chosen. witch elves are slayers. imo.

[Axxar]

I felt the problem with witch elves was that they were gender specific, meaning that it would require some courage of Mythic to pick those as a career. Now that we know gender specific careers are in, I'll be very surprised if the witch elf didn't make it into the game.

[Kuari]

witch elves aren't chosen. witch elves are slayers. imo.

You didn't read a word of this topic beyond the title, did you?

I felt the problem with witch elves was that they were gender specific, meaning that it would require some courage of Mythic to pick those as a career. Now that we know gender specific careers are in, I'll be very surprised if the witch elf didn't make it into the game.

I wouldn't have been surprised ever since I looked at Greenskins

[Azyrn]

I'm doubtful of on the subject of the inclusion of Witch Elves. While yes, it would make sense there would be a female only option, I don't think Mythic is so stupid as to make that mistake. As Impossible Chaos (SLM) pointed out (I'm a little too lazy to actually link it) some women are upset that they can't play as a heavily-armored female character that aren't the stereotypical image presented by MMO creators. It's an a gender atrocity, more or less, when women are forced to play as characters that are for all intensive purposes Barbie, despite the many pointy swords and blood.

Which is ultimately the reason I am not expecting Witch Elves at release. Mythic would receive so much for enforcing that image, as female characters existing solely for the lonely middle-aged single male gamer who likes seeing animated nudity. It doesn't matter whether the majority of gamers are male, women do play these games and it's disconcerting that they won't be allowed to role whatever class they please, the Chosen in particular.

Point being, Mythic is already receiving generous amounts of flak for excluding Female Chosen (Which are Lore appropriate), do you really believe they'd risk the longevity and acceptance of their game over something like this? A Class like Corsairs are just as easily implanted, with much less argument and discontent.

EDIT: On the subject of DaoC classes, very few classes were limited on Gender, allowing women to access any play-style. With WAR, if a woman wants to play a melee DPS/Tanking class, and play as her own gender, she'll be forced to play as a Witch Elf. And Witch Elf hardly wear any clothing, and it's again enforcing the unacceptable image of the female gender in games. Once more, in regards to DaoC, while there were classes exclusively available to the different sexes, none of them wore practically nothing for protection, and the models were done rather tastefully.

If women want to play as a massive, orc-sized sword wielding, armor-encased badass I see no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to. It's not because of Lore obviously. If it's a matter of laziness, then it's a major issue in the development cycle, if it's a matter of gender, then it's a societal issue. Those are always messy fights.

You make a good point of the witch elves enforcing that stereotype. However, witch elves are lore wise very unarmored. So its not like your going into the class expecting be bulky tank like armour so i don't see to much of a problem. However, if they made a tank class for Dark elves and made it male and female and the males turned out to look like executioner's or black guards but females turned out to look like witch elves thats where the problem lies.

[Commentaris]

You didn't read a word of this topic beyond the title, did you?


i did actually.

you didn't understand me reply though it seems. i might have to elobarate just for you, as you need it.

witch elves are like slayers because in my mind they they share many of the iconic goodness for their race, but suffer from much of the same problem when it comes to making them into a mmorpg class. also, slayers appear to be under devellopment to be implemented at some later stage. i'm assuming the same goes for witch elves.

gender plays no part in it, even though the OP started out with that assumption.

just because chosen = male only we cannot expect witch elves to be in just because so witch elves - female only.

[bladecloud]

also, slayers appear to be under devellopment to be implemented at some later stage.

And what makes you think that?

[Commentaris]

And what makes you think that?
because that's the lastest info we've been told about slayers. i'm paraphrasing here ofc.

[Set]

I'm doubtful of on the subject of the inclusion of Witch Elves. While yes, it would make sense there would be a female only option, I don't think Mythic is so stupid as to make that mistake. As Impossible Chaos (SLM) pointed out (I'm a little too lazy to actually link it) some women are upset that they can't play as a heavily-armored female character that aren't the stereotypical image presented by MMO creators. It's an a gender atrocity, more or less, when women are forced to play as characters that are for all intensive purposes Barbie, despite the many pointy swords and blood.

Which is ultimately the reason I am not expecting Witch Elves at release. Mythic would receive so much for enforcing that image, as female characters existing solely for the lonely middle-aged single male gamer who likes seeing animated nudity. It doesn't matter whether the majority of gamers are male, women do play these games and it's disconcerting that they won't be allowed to role whatever class they please, the Chosen in particular.

Point being, Mythic is already receiving generous amounts of flak for excluding Female Chosen (Which are Lore appropriate), do you really believe they'd risk the longevity and acceptance of their game over something like this? A Class like Corsairs are just as easily implanted, with much less argument and discontent.

EDIT: On the subject of DaoC classes, very few classes were limited on Gender, allowing women to access any play-style. With WAR, if a woman wants to play a melee DPS/Tanking class, and play as her own gender, she'll be forced to play as a Witch Elf. And Witch Elf hardly wear any clothing, and it's again enforcing the unacceptable image of the female gender in games. Once more, in regards to DaoC, while there were classes exclusively available to the different sexes, none of them wore practically nothing for protection, and the models were done rather tastefully.

If women want to play as a massive, orc-sized sword wielding, armor-encased badass I see no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to. It's not because of Lore obviously. If it's a matter of laziness, then it's a major issue in the development cycle, if it's a matter of gender, then it's a societal issue. Those are always messy fights.
Witch Elf is not a tanking class. You cant compare it with a Chaos Chosen. Witch Elf most likely a light armored melee dps, like Choppa, Witch Hunter, Hammerer etc. Women who wanted to play female Chosen, will have an option to play a dark elf tanking class, which most likely will have a female option, and heavy armor.

[Xurré]

It's an a gender atrocity, more or less, when women are forced to play as characters that are for all intensive purposes Barbie, despite the many pointy swords and blood.
You mean like this (http://www.artonyou.com/Evil%20Barbie%20Satana2.jpg) or like this (http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/182651/2/istockphoto_182651_psycho_doll.jpg)? :p

They’re both Barbies, and neither of them fits in the stereotypical sexy view.

With WAR, if a woman wants to play a melee DPS/Tanking class, and play as her own gender, she'll be forced to play as a Witch Elf. And Witch Elf hardly wear any clothing, and it's again enforcing the unacceptable image of the female gender in games.
You’re making a lot of assumptions there. You’re assuming that Marauders won’t allow female characters (which might be the case, but is far from fact). You’re making the assumption that the dark elf tank won’t allow females (which is extremely unlikely as dark elves tend to be far more inclusive of women in their warfare than pretty much any other race in the setting). And you’re assuming that the Witch Elf is an unacceptable image of the female gender.

I respect that a lot of women like to play a non-sexualized character (and I would say that indeed they have that option in the majority of the classes in the game) and for them I do mourn there not being female Chosen to play. But I’d say that there are just as many women who love to play an attractive and yet powerful and deadly character.

On top of that I’d challenge your assertion that Witch Elves are the stereotypical sex dolls. Sure they might look it on the surface, but they’re killing machines who would sooner rip your heart out than go to bed with you. In fact, just as the dolls I linked to above, they pretty much twist the whole “innocent sexiness” stereotype by making them the most evil and twisted characters in the setting.

If you Google images of chainmail bikinis then most all the images you’ll find will be of the supermodel-variety like this (http://ewancient.lysator.liu.se/pic/art/d/a/davey/014.jpg). But that’s pretty far removed from something like, well, this (http://www.sleepless.to/brad/miniatures/Dark%20Elves/witch2.jpg); and they both wear chainmail bikinis. But one is stereotypical “sexy” and the other is a bloodlusting and insane killer (and one might even argue not all that attractive).


witch elves are like slayers because in my mind they they share many of the iconic goodness for their race, but suffer from much of the same problem when it comes to making them into a mmorpg class. also, slayers appear to be under devellopment to be implemented at some later stage. i'm assuming the same goes for witch elves.
I don’t agree with that assessment at all.

Slayers were not included because they don’t wear anything at all (except pants), making it impossible for Mythic to design tiers of armor for them. Witch Elves on the other hand, while not wearing armor in the protective sense, definitely wear armor ( as in clothes). And as I’ve shown again and again they’ve got in fact a huge variety of armor they can wear (including some fairly covering choices), giving Mythic more than enough to design various tiers of appearance for them.

Some have also said that Slayers aren’t included because they’re suicidal. But this too is far from true for Witch Elves (as I’ve said before, they follow the deity of murder not the deity of suicide). In fact, while Slayer’s desire to die might be problematic in an MMO a Witch Elf’s desire to kill would more than suitable in WAR.

I don’t see any relationship between why Slayers are excluded and Witch Elves.

just because chosen = male only we cannot expect witch elves to be in just because so witch elves - female only.
No, but at least it should put an end to the argument (the only really valid one I’ve heard so far) against Witch Elves being gender-restricted as a reason not to have them.


Anyway, the discussion on Witch Elves has moved to the new dark elf forum, so this thread probably should be as well.


- Xurré

[Rayning]

Hmmm wonder if a lock is forthcoming on this thread. I just want a few more Female choices on Destruction side and don't know enough of the Lore to even tell if there are anymore races or classes out there available.

Will have to see what expansions bring and what the game looks like upon full release.

[Dalamar]

But that’s pretty far removed from something like, well, this (http://www.sleepless.to/brad/miniatures/Dark%20Elves/witch2.jpg); and they both wear chainmail bikinis. But one is stereotypical “sexy” and the other is a bloodlusting and insane killer (and one might even argue not all that attractive).

oh my god... that's one butchered miniature <.< someone tell that person to never touch paints again >.>

[Gamut]

They're elves anyhow. They all look female unless you look closely.

Seriously though, I have no problem with gender specific classes. The Valkyrie in DAoC wouldn't have made much sense as a man (or a troll). I'm not the sort of person that cares too much about how my avatar looks, but rather about how it plays. But there is still lots of choice for people that feel they need to restrict themselves to one gender of character. I assume there are people that would only play a human for the same reasons.

[Drakhon]

for all intensive purposes

It's "intents and purposes".

On topic: As has been said before, the choice to make Chosen male-only does not mean that Witch Elves will be a class with any certainty. Mythic's willingness to make gender-restricted classes removes one of the biggest arguments against them, however.

[Browncoat-WHA]

You rang?

This one's kind of a side note, so it'll stay open. Just somewhere else. :)

*MOVED with a giant airsoft gun to DE discussion*

[javaira]

My goodness I have been saying "intensive purposes" for 34 years! This is the first time I had heard that is wrong. I am so embarassed.

sorry to hijack.

Witch elves will be fine, even in their scanty clothing as long as I have at least one female tank option if I play destruction. Although it would be nice to have more than one.

I will not be a scantily clothed female character and I think Mythic understand that they should not force that stereotype onto to female players.

Alot of this fear of mine would vanish if they confirmed that females can be marauders.

[Drakhon]

I will not be a scantily clothed female character and I think Mythic understand that they should not force that stereotype onto to female players.

I agree about Mythic and that's actually one of the things I find the funniest about the complaints that people are making. Apparently if there is this one class in the game (Witch Elves) that are required by the IP to be rather scantily clad, then Mythic is just reinforcing the nearly-naked barbie stereotype, never mind the other three DE classes, the three female-inclusive Chaos classes and the entirety of the Order faction that will have female characters clothed in the same manner as their male counterparts.

Alot of this fear of mine would vanish if they confirmed that females can be marauders.

I don't see any reason to fear that Marauders wont be able to be female. The choice was made for Chosen due to a specific artistic issue that Marauders do not share.

[checkthis5000]

I don't see why people are assuming that Marauders won't be female as well. If you look at the screens that have Chosen near another class, they are obviously larger, while the Magus and Zealot are the same size. I would be greatly surprised if the Marauder isn't the same size as the Magus and Zealot, which would mean that they would be able to use the same female model as used with the Magus and Zealot.

Oh oops, to get on-topic. I've always thought they'd put in Witch Elves. Reason being that they have some kickass miniatures that are Witch Elves that aren't your typical "chainmail bikini" witch elves.

For instance:

http://www.coolminiornot.com/152125

http://www.coolminiornot.com/125779

http://www.coolminiornot.com/92467

http://www.coolminiornot.com/67142

http://www.coolminiornot.com/28018

Those don't look like they're "hardly armored" at all. In fact with their speed, and the combination of plate mail in the most exposed places (arms, legs, chest, shoulders, head) it would be very difficult to even harm them unless you were skilled.

[Kimmie]

im not an expert, but are any of those games workshop witch elf models.

i am really looking forward to playing a dark elf - scantily clad and all. i will be upset if they are not playable or even worse - playable put ruined because of the myth that women won't play a character like that. if witch elves aren't in or are de-sexed, i would be really disappointed. i wouldn't say they are "forcing" me to play characters i dont want to, i just wouldn't play. i just hate that there are so few choices for someone like me. witch elves are the only characters that look good to me. if the "protectors" of my poor little feminine feelings get there way it seems witch elves will be censored (for my protection of course)

[Azyrn]

im not an expert, but are any of those games workshop witch elf models.

i am really looking forward to playing a dark elf - scantily clad and all. i will be upset if they are not playable or even worse - playable put ruined because of the myth that women won't play a character like that. if witch elves aren't in or are de-sexed, i would be really disappointed. i wouldn't say they are "forcing" me to play characters i dont want to, i just wouldn't play. i just hate that there are so few choices for someone like me. witch elves are the only characters that look good to me. if the "protectors" of my poor little feminine feelings get there way it seems witch elves will be censored (for my protection of course)

Your one of the first people i have seen embrace that and for that i thank you.

[Illya]

If witch elves are in, I doubt they'll be censored. The one in the intro-video wasn't. And those minis you posted, checkthis, are hardly overdressed either. Most of them had a cloak or something similar, and apart from the mini taken from the blood cauldron set, most of them were wearing the 'bikini-chainmail.' Not that it really matters.

If witch elves are in, I don't want them to be censored. Then they wouldn't be witch elves.

[Skalding]

You make a good point of the witch elves enforcing that stereotype. However, witch elves are lore wise very unarmored. So its not like your going into the class expecting be bulky tank like armour so i don't see to much of a problem. However, if they made a tank class for Dark elves and made it male and female and the males turned out to look like executioner's or black guards but females turned out to look like witch elves thats where the problem lies.

I was probably a little unclear with my original post. My problem isn't that Witch Elves hardly wear anything, I play the TT. I understand that. My problem is that if a woman wants to play a muscular, bulky character encased in chaos-infused armor who is female, she simply cannot.

Someone replied saying if they wanted to play a heavily armored tanking class, she can play as the Dark Elf Tank Class. That solves nothing. They're Elves. They're well formed and graceful, very thin. Not bulky or muscular at all. No matter how much armor you pack onto them, or how large their weapons become, they are still the idolized female model, which is a misrepresentation of gender populations, and a source of enjoyment for the male gaming community.

Again, to someone else, I may have misused the term, "sexy". What I meant was that their form is in accordance with what is generally considered to be beautiful. Some people want to have their characters to be aesthetically pleasing, some want to be incredibly thin and conform to the tradition definition of what beauty is, but others don't want to be forced to dress in practically nothing and prance around. Some women may want to be muscular, and large, and rip apart as a Chosen.

I have no problems with Witch Elves becoming included. I really don't. It's that there are so few options available to female Destruction players who want to play as females characters. They are being pigeon-holed into playing a DE if they want to Tank is part of the problem. Women may not want to play as an Elf who is very slender and elegant. They may want to be larger, they may want to wear the Chaos armor, and wield those humungeous weapons. At this stage at least, the option needs to be available.

This is different from DaoC. There aren't more than 10 classes available to all of the different races, which number, what? Six or Seven or so per realm? The choices in WAR are extremely limited, especially on Destruction side where the Greenskins are genderless, but more masculine in nature. I don't think that the Witch Elf look is wrong, I don't find it tasteful, but I find nothing really terrible about them. It's just when gamers are forced to play as them.

There are a lot of different angles I'm trying to cover in my posts, and I'm a little discombobulated. I'm trying to pull them together, so pick a part at your leisure, it'll help pull the argument together.

[checkthis5000]

I was probably a little unclear with my original post. My problem isn't that Witch Elves hardly wear anything, I play the TT. I understand that. My problem is that if a woman wants to play a muscular, bulky character encased in chaos-infused armor who is female, she simply cannot.


I want you to go survey some female gamers and show them this picture:

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=810&c=7

And then this one:

http://www.images.secretlivesofmobs.com/images/fchosen.jpg

And tell me which one they pick. The second is the obviously slender version, while the first is the obviously bulky muscular one.

If more of them pick the first one, hell if the margin is even remotely close to even, then you have a point and they should have put female chosen in.

Personally, they're both drawn very well, but the first one is the ugliest representation of a woman I've ever seen in a game, and I would be enormously surprised if more than 1 or 2 people pick that one.

Disclaimer: I picked these two pictures because they're equally talented pictures.

[Black Razor]

Everyone associates scantly clad with sex .. to me the look of Witch Elves has always been along the lines of roman gladiatorial wear .. which was also sparse and worn by men. Nobody questions when an ork wears a loincloth and a arm guard but when a insane female elf berserker wears it shes obviously a stripper. Granted the fact that people have a fondness for painting theres like porn stars doesn't help ..but I think the origin of the look still goes back to gladiator over exotic dancer. And for though a few women are offended by the idealistic body types games frequently try to force on us .. many arn't .. myself included... heck I wish I was that built in real life. But what does offend the greater majority of us is how men playing females portray us.

I was probably a little unclear with my original post. My problem isn't that Witch Elves hardly wear anything, I play the TT. I understand that. My problem is that if a woman wants to play a muscular, bulky character encased in chaos-infused armor who is female, she simply cannot.

True enough but removal of one option doesn't mean we don't have others. Theres still the marauder and though not chaos the dark elf tank class which we presume will be male/female. Not to say I am happy about the choice to omit female Chosen .. I think its silly, but I am mostly offended by the reason they didn't do it rather then the fact that they did.

And as a note .. I don't completely agree with the rendition of the female done for the comic .. I don't actually like the sculpted cleavage look on plate mail .. its not very practical from a realism standpoint. However I do like that shes not super bulked out but still seems quite muscular and powerful and cant understand why they couldn't make something similar work for the design. It seems lazy on the art departments side to me.

[Azyrn]

Everyone associates scantly clad with sex .. to me the look of Witch Elves has always been along the lines of roman gladiatorial wear .. which was also sparse and worn by men. Nobody questions when an ork wears a loincloth and a arm guard but when a insane female elf berserker wears it shes obviously a stripper. Granted the fact that people have a fondness for painting theres like porn stars doesn't help ..but I think the origin of the look still goes back to gladiator over exotic dancer. And for though a few women are offended by the idealistic body types games frequently try to force on us .. many arn't .. myself included... heck I wish I was that built in real life. But what does offend the greater majority of us is how men playing females portray us.

I wish i could look like Leonidas in 300 !

[Illya]

Everyone associates scantly clad with sex .. to me the look of Witch Elves has always been along the lines of roman gladiatorial wear .. which was also sparse and worn by men. Nobody questions when an ork wears a loincloth and a arm guard but when a insane female elf berserker wears it shes obviously a stripper. Granted the fact that people have a fondness for painting theres like porn stars doesn't help ..but I think the origin of the look still goes back to gladiator over exotic dancer. And for though a few women are offended by the idealistic body types games frequently try to force on us .. many arn't .. myself included... heck I wish I was that built in real life. But what does offend the greater majority of us is how men playing females portray us.


You can say what you like about the look, but the text from the DE army book, somewhere in the back, where the witch elf is sitting on top of a captured human, telling him how his body will continue to pleasure her after he's dead... well. Witch Elves are about sex, make no mistake. Not all about sex, but it's certainly a part of it.

[Hatemonger]

I want you to go survey some female gamers and show them this picture:

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=810&c=7

And then this one:

http://www.images.secretlivesofmobs.com/images/fchosen.jpg

And tell me which one they pick. The second is the obviously slender version, while the first is the obviously bulky muscular one.

If more of them pick the first one, hell if the margin is even remotely close to even, then you have a point and they should have put female chosen in.

Personally, they're both drawn very well, but the first one is the ugliest representation of a woman I've ever seen in a game, and I would be enormously surprised if more than 1 or 2 people pick that one.

Disclaimer: I picked these two pictures because they're equally talented pictures.


Not fair.

The second pick is colored, way more detailed, and has tons of extra kickass looking decorations to make her look intimidating despite being slender. The first one simply isn't as "cool".

[Azyrn]

You can say what you like about the look, but the text from the DE army book, somewhere in the back, where the witch elf is sitting on top of a captured human, telling him how his body will continue to pleasure her after he's dead... well. Witch Elves are about sex, make no mistake. Not all about sex, but it's certainly a part of it. That had nothing to do with sex. She was saying what his body would provide aka his blood for her to drink and bathe in.

Edit: i will point out at the beginning i thought she was having sex with him though.

[Zoatibix]

"Your body will serve to pleasure me long after your soul fades. I will drink from your wounds and when my thirst is quenched I will bathe in your blood."

She is getting her kicks from drinking his blood and using it as a skin care product - not necrophillia. To her the pleasure is in torturing and terrifying him, in giving a worthy sacrifice of blood to Khaine.

There is a sensual element to the sacrifice but we're not talking necrophillia here nor is she having sex with him against his will.

Witch Elves are seductive but the price of their smiles can be death - the WHFB book tells us that.

Witch Elves aren't afraid to get hurt. That's why they wear no protective armour. They can't run around naked so they get bikini's. Didn't the Spartans fight naked? Some of the Celts? But they get covered up in the movies.

The figures on Coolminiornot are indeed GWs Witch Elves by Chris Fitzpatrick.

The first one is in fact a conversion from a Warhammer 40,000 Dark Eldar Wyche Special Character (so Witches in Space, almost.) There are male Dark Eldar Wyches and Chris made them just as 'sexy' and athletic.

The Dark Elf Witches from Fantasy Battle are my favorite figures - superbly sharp detail and amazing sculpts. They have grace and elegance. They are 'sexy' without having huge or cheesecake poses. They aren't skinny but lithe, sleek and athletic. I don't think a warrior elf should look like Kate Moss - but she certainly shouldn't look like Jordon.

Barbie is intrested in clothes, ponies and pink cars (from my observation of my daugther's dolls). The Witch Elves are intrested in blood and death for their master.

Edit: Damn, too slow! :D

[Xurré]

oh my god... that's one butchered miniature <.< someone tell that person to never touch paints again >.>
Ok, how about this one (http://www.eilistraee.com/a/hag.jpg) then? Either way I think it proves the point that they don’t have to be overly sexualized.

More pictures:
Witch Elf (color) (http://www.eilistraee.com/a/witchelf.jpg)
Witch Elf (b&w) (http://www.eilistraee.com/a/witchelf2.jpg)

Ooh... more forum portraits? ;)


There are a lot of different angles I'm trying to cover in my posts, and I'm a little discombobulated. I'm trying to pull them together, so pick a part at your leisure, it'll help pull the argument together.
Ooh, carte blanche! ;)

I was probably a little unclear with my original post. My problem isn't that Witch Elves hardly wear anything, I play the TT. I understand that. My problem is that if a woman wants to play a muscular, bulky character encased in chaos-infused armor who is female, she simply cannot.
The thing is though... if I want to play a pink elephant I’m out of luck too. Or, more in keeping with Warhammer, if I want to play an Ogre or an undead or a Fimir or a fat bright wizard or a... you get the point.

I truly feel for those who wanted to play a muscular, bulky, chaos-armor-encased woman (and I’m gussing the Chaos Mage isn’t bulky enough). But saying “this should be in because now those who wanted to play this can’t” is a very weak argument as there are far more thing you can’t play than there are things you can.

I don't think that the Witch Elf look is wrong, I don't find it tasteful, but I find nothing really terrible about them. It's just when gamers are forced to play as them.
That’s also an argument I don’t quite understand... nobody is forced to play anything. In fact, if it’s such a big deal then you’re not even forced to play the game. If you don’t like the Witch Elf look/style then play another class; there’s 23 others to choose from (which is more than most other games).

I realize that people can spew out a very specific list of requirements for the class they want to play (male and elf and destruction and melee and dps and ...), but that’s not any more an argument than above because for every list of specific requirements you can come up with that you’d be unable to play I can come up with at least one people wouldn’t be able to play if you do get your way.

And again, I realize the desire to play exactly the class you want to play, I understand very well (since I’m the same). But it’s not a good argument for/against classes.


- Xurré

[Azyrn]

"Your body will serve to pleasure me long after your soul fades. I will drink from your wounds and when my thirst is quenched I will bathe in your blood."

She is getting her kicks from drinking his blood and using it as a skin care product - not necrophillia. To her the pleasure is in torturing and terrifying him, in giving a worthy sacrifice of blood to Khaine.

There is a sensual element to the sacrifice but we're not talking necrophillia here nor is she having sex with him against his will.

Witch Elves are seductive but the price of their smiles can be death - the WHFB book tells us that.

Witch Elves aren't afraid to get hurt. That's why they wear no protective armour. They can't run around naked so they get bikini's. Didn't the Spartans fight naked? Some of the Celts? But they get covered up in the movies.

The figures on Coolminiornot are indeed GWs Witch Elves by Chris Fitzpatrick.

The first one is in fact a conversion from a Warhammer 40,000 Dark Eldar Wyche Special Character (so Witches in Space, almost.) There are male Dark Eldar Wyches and Chris made them just as 'sexy' and athletic.

The Dark Elf Witches from Fantasy Battle are my favorite figures - superbly sharp detail and amazing sculpts. They have grace and elegance. They are 'sexy' without having huge or cheesecake poses. They aren't skinny but lithe, sleek and athletic. I don't think a warrior elf should look like Kate Moss - but she certainly shouldn't look like Jordon.

Barbie is intrested in clothes, ponies and pink cars (from my observation of my daugther's dolls). The Witch Elves are intrested in blood and death for their master.

Edit: Damn, too slow! :D

I love the concept of Witch Elves but i dislike there models. If i where to use them right now i would probably modify Daemonette models. Problem with that is there a bit to scantily clad.

[Thrakkesh]

Yeah, the Witch Elf models are awful looking. There poses are just wrong.

BTW, stop trying to pretend like there's no sexuality involved with Witch Elves. Theres' a fluff story, plain as day involving a High Elf trying not to get caught, and they basically tell him straight out that they'll probably sex him up a lot before he dies.

[Drakhon]

BTW, stop trying to pretend like there's no sexuality involved with Witch Elves.

I don't think anyone is saying that, but rather that it's not any more sexuality than is involved with any other Dark Elf.

[Kuari]

I still gotta ask why people would have been surprised by Witch Elves pre-no female Chosen

Greenskins though asexual will always be considered male by a majority of people. Good lore for it, so it makes sense, but still, considered male.

Therefore, the male only classes which number 5 so far now, are pretty well in... though I don't like the idea of how almost half the Destruction classes seem to be gender restricted, while none of Order are...

If the trend keeps up, it could possibly almost guarantee that Order will overpopulate Chaos. I could be wrong, but.... I might not be... we'll see.. I am hoping for some gender specific High Elves though if they exist so Order has to face that trend at least slightly.

[Xurré]

Theres' a fluff story, plain as day involving a High Elf trying not to get caught, and they basically tell him straight out that they'll probably sex him up a lot before he dies.
Wait… what?


I still gotta ask why people would have been surprised by Witch Elves pre-no female Chosen

Greenskins though asexual will always be considered male by a majority of people. Good lore for it, so it makes sense, but still, considered male.
I’ve been making that argument for a long time… but people tend to dismiss it with a “they’re asexual” or “that’s just how orcs are”. Now we’ve got a class where the same cannot be claimed, thus making a much stronger argument. So it’s just that those who didn’t want to see the greenskins as gender-restricted now realize that the argument no longer holds.


Of course it’s still no guarantee that there’ll be Witch Elves as a player class… but it seemed to be the only real argument against them.


- Xurré

[Zoatibix]

Yeah, the Witch Elf models are awful looking. There poses are just wrong.

BTW, stop trying to pretend like there's no sexuality involved with Witch Elves. Theres' a fluff story, plain as day involving a High Elf trying not to get caught, and they basically tell him straight out that they'll probably sex him up a lot before he dies.

It's much more sensuality that bare sexuality. But Dark Elves are a sexy lot.

As to the models and people not liking them.... Each to their own I guess but I think they are amazing sculpts. The musculature is well detailed,they have lots of extra little details in their hair and jewellery. Their poses are somewhat restricted because they need to rank up into units (which they do very nicely, unlike some other models!)

[Ilairon]

I don't really see the relation between "No female Chosen" and Witch Elves. Just because Chosen are a male-only class doesn't mean Mythic will balance it with a female-only class. They've made the point that they're not afraid of making gender restricted classes (though why they chose to make the Chosen, which has lore supporting female Champions, a sex-restricted class is beyond me), but that neither supports nor detracts from Witch Elves' bid for a class. Honestly, it would seem to me that if Mythic made gender-restricted classes, they'd go towards male-only simply because that's the demographic they're counting on most and they feel there's less of a cost to disenfranchise the ladies. Mind, you'd think gender restrictions of any kind would be bad for business, but who knows what goes on in the minds of developers. Outside of the Shadow of course.

[Kimmie]

I still gotta ask why people would have been surprised by Witch Elves pre-no female Chosen

Greenskins though asexual will always be considered male by a majority of people. Good lore for it, so it makes sense, but still, considered male.

Therefore, the male only classes which number 5 so far now, are pretty well in... though I don't like the idea of how almost half the Destruction classes seem to be gender restricted, while none of Order are...

If the trend keeps up, it could possibly almost guarantee that Order will overpopulate Chaos. I could be wrong, but.... I might not be... we'll see.. I am hoping for some gender specific High Elves though if they exist so Order has to face that trend at least slightly.

the side of order has been overpopulated in every game ive played so why would there be a shock if this game is the same way.

i don't really see anything on the order side that appeals to me but like i keep saying ALL WOMEN ARE DIFFERENT

i wouldn't play orcs even if they had females because they still wouldn't be attractive. same with chosen unless they were a lot different from the males.

i am really looking forward to the dark elves. i have been reading up on them and can't wait. i just know mythic will do a great job.

if witch elves are in the game, which i pray that they are! i hope people will have gotten all there single sex class frenzy out. it's crzy seeing a million threads on how unbelievable it is to have a single sex class. i think i will go crazy if i have to go through this barrage of complianing again.

order will not overpopulate destruction because of the way destruction looks. while i don't like models that don't look sexy there are a lot of people that just want really astounding models. destruction has a lot more of those than order. even if all us women decided to play order it wouldn't make a huge impact on the game. there are more of us every year but we play what we want to play, not what you imagine we want to play or what we are supposed to play.

[nennnafir]

First off, I am a guy (middle aged, married, kids) and would love for witch elves to be in the game and would probably play one because I like to look at hot and sexy avatars. (And they are hot, despite all of this insinuation that just because they are evil and nasty and bloodthirsty they aren't. Women like their tall dark strangers or bad boys sometimes and men sometimes like their bad girls...)

That said, though, I think there should be female chosen. People play a given character for a whole variety of reasons, and providing options won't kill anyone. Especially in this case because the lore allows it and there is no real good reason (aside from laziness) not to include it.

My wife plays tanking classes a lot (her first 75 in FFXI was a paladin) and would actually get a big kick out of playing a female chosen I think.

In short, why not provide the option, especially since the lore allows it? Some people (male or female) want to play a sexy (male or female) avatar and some prefer a more armored look and some prefer whatever else (beast, asexual, etc.) It doesn't hurt to provide options so that more people are happy with their avatars.

[Kuari]

order will not overpopulate destruction because of the way destruction looks. while i don't like models that don't look sexy there are a lot of people that just want really astounding models. destruction has a lot more of those than order. even if all us women decided to play order it wouldn't make a huge impact on the game. there are more of us every year but we play what we want to play, not what you imagine we want to play or what we are supposed to play.

Well I'm not talking only about women... also talking about men who like playing female characters... and that kind of thing isn't always just people wanting to pretend to be female...

well, guess we'll see what happens though

[Thrakkesh]

Five dollars said all the consternation about the lack of Female chosen is completely forgotten 1 week into the game's release.

[Kuari]

Five dollars said all the consternation about the lack of Female chosen is completely forgotten 1 week into the game's release.

Five dollars I'll still be around trying to rile people up about it, especially the new people that will be appearing that know nothing about the lore.

[kharnage]

What's the record for most threads about the same thing?

Who is winning?

Waaa!!! there's no chosen.

or

err, I don't understand why there aren't female orcs

[Selandri]

I'd say either female Chosen or Witch Elf / Corsair threads, Kharnage!

[Kuari]

What's the record for most threads about the same thing?

Who is winning?

Waaa!!! there's no chosen.

or

err, I don't understand why there aren't female orcs

When was the last time you say a why aren't there female orcs topic? And how long do they typically last?

[Lord Dobo]

What's the record for most threads about the same thing?

Who is winning?

Waaa!!! there's no chosen.

or

err, I don't understand why there aren't female orcs
Lol, dude, if you look back over your last few posts, just about all you seem to be interested in is coming on to gender issue threads and flaming.:rolleyes: Seriously, let it go. I understand if it frustrates you to see a subject you feel is like beating a dead horse... but just let people say what they need to say. It's a forum, it's what people do on these things.

Ok, on topic. I fought for the whole allowing female chosen thing because I thought it was lore appropriate and I thought that women should have an option to play something that is said to exist in that world. But they chose to go along the lines of not being able to allocate resources to making a beleivable option. Fine, fight over in my opinion. We can't sway them in the time we have left. But in any case, I don't think it's fair to say that we know what they plan to do and what they mean exactly. They might have no plans to Balance anything. And maybe they are actually going to bring out an assassin.

Slayers, if I remember right, were said to be in the plans as an advanced career in a future project.

With Witch Elves, I really hope they are in and female only because of the same reasons I want female chosen... it's lore appropriate. When it comes to their look, I want them to be scantily clad because that's what they are. It's funny, because I think I am on their side when it comes to the whole iconic look of the class. I don't want them to dumb it down to appease people afraid of a "sexed up" look. Like some have said, it's not really women who are afraid of ONE class having a sexy look, it's the people "protecting" them. I think we are fine with them in, I really hope for them anyways.

I do have to say though, I hope they don't get crazy with it and make super DDD cup models. My favorite picture of them clearly had less of a bombshell look and more of a lithe and quick look to it. I'll see if I can get a link.

This I scanned from the Dark Elf Armies book.
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l202/Lord_Dobo/WitchElfScan.jpg

This is from the same book, but on the GW site.
http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/darkelves/gaming/specialcharacters/croneHellebron/images/hellebron.jpg

Not that they can't do buxom as well, just that they seem to go with lithe in the current books. This is from the fantasy role play I think... but there you go... model like version.
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l202/Lord_Dobo/witch-elf-art.jpg

Now, it's good to note, the sorceresses look a lot like the witch elves in the current army book. So who knows that they won't all look similar anyways.

[zoa]

First let me state that I do think there should be female avatars in the game. I rather have it so any class could be male or female, cause to be honest Lore only goes so far for me, I'm not here to RP, I'm here to play the game (just so you fanatic nuts don't jump all over me about what's fair). The thing is, I don't intend to play a female character, I don't feel right playing one. However, I am looking forward to finding out what the melee DPS DE class will be because other than Marauder that is what I want to play. Finding out what it is will determine what my main is, but I have always enjoyed playing a DE class, so I really hope they don't pick Witch Elves. Now remember to look at the top again before you talk about fair this and fair that, cause I am not against you.

[Zoatibix]

But Zoa, if Witch Elves make the cut that will still leave you three other Dark Elf Classes. If you want to be DPS there will be Orc or Chaos choices. It's only one fairly specific combination or Race, Role and Gender that you don't like.

I mean I really, really hope that Witch Elves do make it in. I love Witch Elves (from afar, with my running shoes on) and want to play DPS and a Druchii. But say Corsairs make it in. I won't want to play one, they really don't appeal to me. I'll just take a look at the other three Dark Elf Classes.

I think we are getting a lot of choices with this game but I don't think Mythic are going to be able to please all of us, all of the time.

I don't think that the descion against female chosen is point towards there being Witch Elves, but it certainly removes the obstacle of them being a gender specific class.

I think it is fair to balance the number of 'male' classes with one or two female ones. Witch Elves aren't air-heads who fight like tigers but in the end swoon at the feet of the Generic Barbarian Hero because 'all they needed was a real man'.

[spirit]

What's the record for most threads about the same thing?

Who is winning?

Waaa!!! there's no chosen.

or

err, I don't understand why there aren't female orcs


Neither, "I don't like instances" is still in the lead by miles.





I hope if they put Witch elves in it has nothing to do with thinking about gender. If witch elves are put in it should be because they are damn cool, the gender is just something that comes along with it.

Plus I think the number of guys who won't play it due to it being female will be more than made up for by the guys who play it "cos of bewbs" and the females of the community wanting "strong female figures". Not to mention the e-ho's who will play them to skank money out of idiots.

...Wait a minute...I don't think I want to play in the dark elf area anymore.

[V'raneth]

Although I'd rather have both, if Mythic wants to bargain that they'll give Witch Elves for female Chosen, that's a bargain I'll make. :p

[Ceilingcat]

Not to mention the e-ho's who will play them to skank money out of idiots.

...Wait a minute...I don't think I want to play in the dark elf area anymore.

Remember, this is WAR. If you're a Witch Elf and you find someone selling their body then you can damn well just kill them. Well, hopefully you can.

[Nathar]

Remember, this is WAR. If you're a Witch Elf and you find someone selling their body then you can damn well just kill them. Well, hopefully you can.

Sadly that's a poor arguement (I can't help think of someone who complained about "This is WAR" arguements a while ago). Since this 'is' WAR and in WAR you won't be able to kill your own team mates, no you won't. This is WAR, not FFA pvp game.

[Ranti]

Never needed no female Chosen for Witch Elves... we already had Greenskins

Greenskins are NOT males

This point is starting to drive me batty, if anything goblins are female, they have a pionty chin, elongated facial features, and a squeaky voice, all fairly feminine in nature. But all greenskins are asexual, they are build the way they are is because it is better for combat, to many of your disbeilef, but mascualine characteristics are better for battle, muscles=strength, large shoulders and powerful limbs are all better to swing that axe with.


and personally, i think having male chosen only really helps the witch elves cause because that is one of the stronger, although there are other, arguements agaist them.

[Ranti]

Five dollars I'll still be around trying to rile people up about it, especially the new people that will be appearing that know nothing about the lore.

the lore which has about 2 female chosen versus 1000s of male ones.....I think saying chosens generally being male is fairly well established, and not allowing female chosen isn't breaking the lore, it isn't neccesarily demanded by it, but it certainly is following it more than having them.

[Selandri]

Female Chosen are noted in the Chaos army book, the Tome of Corruption, hell every source I've read. One or two out of a thousand? I doubt that. A smaller percentage, yes, but not one or two out of a thousand.

The whole 'Oh people will play this character to be e-hos' thing bothers me. So much in fact that I am going to roll up the biggest, ugliest, most bad mofo orc I can, find the skimpiest loin cloth imaginable and walk around saying 'Suky suky 2 teef?'

Yes, you heard me right. Orc hoism with an asexual race.

Edited as per Black Razors suggestion ;)

[Black Razor]

Female Chosen are noted in the Chaos army book, the Tome of Corruption, hell every source I've read. One or two out of a thousand? I doubt that. A smaller percentage, yes, but not one or two out of a thousand.

The whole 'Oh people will play this character to be e-hos' thing bothers me. So much in fact that I am going to roll up the biggest, ugliest, most bad mofo orc I can, find the skimpiest loin cloth imaginable and walk around saying 'Suky suky 2 silva?'

Yes, you heard me right. Orc hoism with an asexual race.

Actually it would be 'two teef?!' .. orcs .. at least Space Orks .. use there teeth as currency (cause they grow back fast) .. which makes the idea all that much more disturbing really if you think about it. ;)

[Kuari]

Greenskins are NOT males

This point is starting to drive me batty, if anything goblins are female, they have a pionty chin, elongated facial features, and a squeaky voice, all fairly feminine in nature. But all greenskins are asexual, they are build the way they are is because it is better for combat, to many of your disbeilef, but mascualine characteristics are better for battle, muscles=strength, large shoulders and powerful limbs are all better to swing that axe with.


and personally, i think having male chosen only really helps the witch elves cause because that is one of the stronger, although there are other, arguements agaist them.

I know they are asexual, but they are still masculine to where, even if you know otherwise, chances are you'll say "he" rather then "it"

the lore which has about 2 female chosen versus 1000s of male ones.....I think saying chosens generally being male is fairly well established, and not allowing female chosen isn't breaking the lore, it isn't neccesarily demanded by it, but it certainly is following it more than having them.

Correction, two female CHAMPIONS, aka LEADERS of Chaos Warbands... you aren't born a leader in Chaos, you earn it from your god.... and I doubt every female Chaos Warrior becomes a Champion... that would be illogical on so many levels...

[Thrakkesh]

I can't believe this argument has spilled over to Dark Elf forums..

[Ceilingcat]

Sadly that's a poor arguement (I can't help think of someone who complained about "This is WAR" arguements a while ago). Since this 'is' WAR and in WAR you won't be able to kill your own team mates, no you won't. This is WAR, not FFA pvp game.

No executing people for heresy? No fights to decide who becomes the new warboss?

[Xurré]

I can't believe this argument has spilled over to Dark Elf forums..
Well, the topic itself was started in general, but moved here because it was more about Witch Elves (to be precise, what the gender restrictiveness of Chosen might mean for Witch Elves).

I agree that the discussion on whether female Chosen should or shouldn't be is rather off-topic in this thread.


- Xurré

[Nathar]

No executing people for heresy? No fights to decide who becomes the new warboss?

I'm afraid all those things will be missing. I'm as sad as you... well not really, I wanna spend my time killing high elves, not fighting off angry orcs.

[Zoatibix]

I wanna spend my time killing high elves, not fighting off angry orcs.

Agreed! :D

[Illya]

I really don't like how the orcs and dark elves are allies. I understand why they've done it, it just bothers me. Dark Elves don't have allies. We ride alone.

[Xurré]

I really don't like how the orcs and dark elves are allies. I understand why they've done it, it just bothers me. Dark Elves don't have allies. We ride alone.
Who says they're allies? They're tools we use to win back what's rightfully ours.


- Xurré

[Black Razor]

Who says they're allies? They're tools we use to win back what's rightfully ours.


- Xurré

And then crush when we are done with them.

[Xurré]

And then crush when we are done with them.
That goes without saying, of course.


- Xurré

[Illya]

Who says they're allies? They're tools we use to win back what's rightfully ours.


- Xurré

Quoted For Truth.

[Dalamar]

No executing people for heresy? No fights to decide who becomes the new warboss?

No kills within same faction, but duels are supposedly in so combat for dominance is pretty much in as well (if you're orc that is. we, dark elves prefer to lead by cunning and manipulation)

[Bulwyf]

I don't really see the relation between "No female Chosen" and Witch Elves. Just because Chosen are a male-only class doesn't mean Mythic will balance it with a female-only class. They've made the point that they're not afraid of making gender restricted classes (though why they chose to make the Chosen, which has lore supporting female Champions, a sex-restricted class is beyond me), but that neither supports nor detracts from Witch Elves' bid for a class. Honestly, it would seem to me that if Mythic made gender-restricted classes, they'd go towards male-only simply because that's the demographic they're counting on most and they feel there's less of a cost to disenfranchise the ladies. Mind, you'd think gender restrictions of any kind would be bad for business, but who knows what goes on in the minds of developers. Outside of the Shadow of course.


I agree. The inclusion of male Chosen only means there are male Chosen. This has nothing to do with what the DE melee dps class might be. If anything Mythic would be more inclined to make more male only classes to appease the vast majority of its gamers.

[Xurré]

I agree. The inclusion of male Chosen only means there are male Chosen. This has nothing to do with what the DE melee dps class might be.
Except, of course, that the main argument against Witch Elves as a class has been "but they're female-only and Mythic doesn't want to do gender-restricted classes". Now that argument can't be made anymore (even if you believe in the defense "but they're asexual" or "but it's an entire race of them, they had no choice").

So it doesn't mean that they will be included, but it does remove the only strong argument people have been making against them.

If anything Mythic would be more inclined to make more male only classes to appease the vast majority of its gamers.
That line of reasoning doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

If there was any truth to that then games like Tomb Raider wouldn't be as immensely popular as they are. In fact, I think the vast majority of "its gamers" would have zero problem with one class out of 24 being female-only (particularly considering that five of them are male-only).


- Xurré

[Selendor]

So it doesn't mean that they will be included, but it does remove the only strong argument people have been making against them.

Actually, the main argument people are making isn't that Witch Elves being gender specific means that they won't be included, it's that it makes no sense to pick Witch Elves when there are more appealing options to choose from that have both male and female options.

Unless of course you're arguing that only having to make one model for a career is less work than having to make a male model.

[Thrakkesh]

Actually, the main argument people are making isn't that Witch Elves being gender specific means that they won't be included, it's that it makes no sense to pick Witch Elves when there are more appealing options to choose from that have both male and female options.

Unless of course you're arguing that only having to make one model for a career is less work than having to make a male model.

I don't buy this.

People play female characters in fighitng games, play adventure games with female leads in them, and all sorts of other examples because they enjoy the class mechanics, not because the polygons or pixels resemble a girl or a boy.

It's just a game in the end, and I'm fairly sure most players will pick the class based on the merits of playstyle and mechanics as opposed to whether or not it has polygons that resemble breasts.

'Lest we all forget it's a game or something.

[Black Razor]

Actually, the main argument people are making isn't that Witch Elves being gender specific means that they won't be included, it's that it makes no sense to pick Witch Elves when there are more appealing options to choose from that have both male and female options.

Unless of course you're arguing that only having to make one model for a career is less work than having to make a male model.

More appealing to whom? If you read across the board its pretty clear that ALOT of people are in favor of Witch Elves .. not against. Not saying its overwhelming but like it or not ..they are highly iconic of the Dark Elves, a great melee choice, and visually striking.. all three of which are criteria that the dev's are using when picking classes. Granted none of that guarantees they will be in game .. I could of said the same of Slayers and we see how that went. And as for the second part of your post .. I shouldn't have to point this out but they have already used the 'to much work' excuse once .. hearing it again wouldn't surprise me one bit. Though I doubt thats the reason if they go with Witch Elves that they do. There are a great number of reasons for witch elves to be chosen as the Dark Elf melee DPS profession ... but the only reason anyone can ever state against comes down to gender restriction. And as we have seen .. Mythic isn't taking that into consideration.

[Bulwyf]

Actually, the main argument people are making isn't that Witch Elves being gender specific means that they won't be included, it's that it makes no sense to pick Witch Elves when there are more appealing options to choose from that have both male and female options.

Unless of course you're arguing that only having to make one model for a career is less work than having to make a male model.

Good point. There are several viable options for melee DPS that do not suffer from gender restriction. I disagree with Mythic on making Chosen male only but since they are using the "its too hard" excuse to make how they look stand out that argument has no water if you look at Dark Elves. All of the units can be distinguished from one another and both genders should be easy to do.

On a larger issue, why is Destruction the only side with gender restriction so far? Orcs are asexual, Chosen are male only that already is five out of twelve classes that have no gender or are male (and appear male I will admit). Are they that determined to have even more Alliance I mean Order players?

[Bulwyf]

I don't buy this.

People play female characters in fighitng games, play adventure games with female leads in them, and all sorts of other examples because they enjoy the class mechanics, not because the polygons or pixels resemble a girl or a boy.

It's just a game in the end, and I'm fairly sure most players will pick the class based on the merits of playstyle and mechanics as opposed to whether or not it has polygons that resemble breasts.

'Lest we all forget it's a game or something.

I have never played a game that does not allow me to play a male character or avatar. I hardly think I am alone in that regard. Most people, and by most I mean the vast majority, will choose their own gender to match their character's in a game.

[Bulwyf]

More appealing to whom? If you read across the board its pretty clear that ALOT of people are in favor of Witch Elves .. not against. Not saying its overwhelming but like it or not ..they are highly iconic of the Dark Elves, a great melee choice, and visually striking.. all three of which are criteria that the dev's are using when picking classes. Granted none of that guarantees they will be in game .. I could of said the same of Slayers and we see how that went. And as for the second part of your post .. I shouldn't have to point this out but they have already used the 'to much work' excuse once .. hearing it again wouldn't surprise me one bit. Though I doubt thats the reason if they go with Witch Elves that they do. There are a great number of reasons for witch elves to be chosen as the Dark Elf melee DPS profession ... but the only reason anyone can ever state against comes down to gender restriction. And as we have seen .. Mythic isn't taking that into consideration.

There's more people who do not want Witch Elves than do want them actually. There are several valid options for melee DPS that are not gender restricted and are just as iconic as Witch Elves.

[Bulwyf]

Except, of course, that the main argument against Witch Elves as a class has been "but they're female-only and Mythic doesn't want to do gender-restricted classes". Now that argument can't be made anymore (even if you believe in the defense "but they're asexual" or "but it's an entire race of them, they had no choice").

So it doesn't mean that they will be included, but it does remove the only strong argument people have been making against them.


That line of reasoning doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

If there was any truth to that then games like Tomb Raider wouldn't be as immensely popular as they are. In fact, I think the vast majority of "its gamers" would have zero problem with one class out of 24 being female-only (particularly considering that five of them are male-only).


- Xurré

Yes, we all know how influential Tomb Raider is on Warhammer. I guess I can mention how you can only play a male character in about 19238012938012983901289038012 other games to bolster my argument?

The argument against Witch Elves is that are other valid options for melee DPS that do NOT require gender restriction. Why choose restriction over freedom? Were you also the student that reminded the teacher at the end of the class period that she forgot to assign homework as well?

[Thrakkesh]

Yes, we all know how influential Tomb Raider is on Warhammer. I guess I can mention how you can only play a male character in about 19238012938012983901289038012 other games to bolster my argument?

The argument against Witch Elves is that are other valid options for melee DPS that do NOT require gender restriction. Why choose restriction over freedom? Were you also the student that reminded the teacher at the end of the class period that she forgot to assign homework as well?

Yes, let's all bring in memories of school, that's great.

Why chose 'restriction over freedom?' Oh, I dunno. One is closely associated with the Dark Elf army? Because they're reasonably iconic? Because Mythic might have an idea for them?

There are plenty of good reasons for it, and it's not something so cut and dry as 'restriction over FREEDOM.' The fact remains that there's a pretty good chance.

[Bulwyf]

Yes, let's all bring in memories of school, that's great.

Why chose 'restriction over freedom?' Oh, I dunno. One is closely associated with the Dark Elf army? Because they're reasonably iconic? Because Mythic might have an idea for them?

There are plenty of good reasons for it, and it's not something so cut and dry as 'restriction over FREEDOM.' The fact remains that there's a pretty good chance.

Of course they are reasonably iconic. So are Executioners. So are Corsairs. So are Shades. So are Black Guard. None of those are gender restricted. So why not pick one of them instead? There is nothing of such intrinsic value to Witch Elves to make them any better a choice than those other classes.

And yes, there is a pretty good chance. We have no idea what Mythic is going to actually do until they tell us...for better or for worse. :p

[Zoatibix]

Witch Elves are incredibily iconic. They are an instantly recogniseable unit whenever the appear in the Dark Elf army. Only CoKs even come close to that recognition factor.

You are arguing for Freedom vs restriction right after you've said that there should be more male exclusive toons. You can't argue for both.

If you want to have freedom then you offer both genders. Of the games I've played that offer both genders (not uncommon, for some reason) I see a lot of female toons. If the number of female gamers is negligible (it isn't, IME) and male gamers only play male toons (incorrect, IME) there shouldnt' be so many female toons in use.

Sure you can try and argue that they are all played by horny 15 year olds but hey everybody is allowed their freedom, right? Except as we know one person's freedoms can interfere with another's.

While giving the choice for both genders is nice, I don't think it should be used to decide which class should be used in a particular slot. Otherwise you risk turning down a really good class merely because you can't make it in both genders.

For example, the DE Assassin would be a male only class and they could make a good DPS class. But lorewise one can't have a female DE assassin. So we have to drop them from the equation due to your request for freedom. Freedom isn't always the best or smartest option

This would bring us back to the Disciple of Khaine option. Now everybody can be a Dark Elf DPSers of their preferred gender. The female ones can refer to themselves as Witch Elves, the male ones as Assassins.

If we are talking Damage Per Second (offensive, not too heavily armoured) then I think there are only three options Black Guard, Exectuioners or Witch Elves but we already have a thread for that.

[Kellaris]

Sure you can try and argue that they are all played by horny 15 year olds but hey everybody is allowed their freedom, right? Except as we know one person's freedoms can interfere with another's.


Exactly. So I should have an option of playing male Damage Dealer. If someone wants to play female, his/her will. I don't.


For example, the DE Assassin would be a male only class and they could make a good DPS class. But lorewise one can't have a female DE assassin. So we have to drop them from the equation due to your request for freedom. Freedom isn't always the best or smartest option



First. Lore says similiar thing about sorcerers and we already know that this will not be a problem.

Second. All this is only true, when we are talking about Temple of Khaine Assasins. I'm pretty sure there are lot of assasins in dark elf society, working for noble houses or such. They are not trained by temple of khaine, so they don't need to be gender specific.
And as You propably know, all player characters will work for House Urion, or sth like that. Not a temple of Khaine.

[Harlequin]

I agree with the OP that the inclusion of a 'male only' class makes it likely that Mythic will balance it by including a 'female-only' class.

Given that logic, the Dark Elf Witch is the most obvious and likely candidate.

Now while the Waaaagggghhhhh flows freely though my veins, a scantily-clad maniacal witch elf may just prove very tempting indeed. . .

[Kellaris]

I agree with the OP that the inclusion of a 'male only' class makes it likely that Mythic will balance it by including a 'female-only' class.




From a gamedesigner's point of view, this is not balancing, but multiplying the problem.
It is balancing only when You terribly want to be politically correct.

[Zoatibix]

But male Sorceres do exist. Malekith wouldn't outlaw them if they didn't. The House could harbour them if they are far from the Witch King's prying eyes...

And you do have five other options to play a male damage dealer.

I think it is fine to restrict genders to specific units to keep within the Lore. My point was that it seems silly to make even more male only class just because it is mainy men that play the game.

Look at my entries in the Corsair vs Witch Elf thread for my views on why Witch Elves are my number one choice for Druchii melee DPS. Even if a small number of people will be turned off the class they are so far ahead of the other candidates that Witch Elves are still the winner in my eyes.

Suggesting an all-female class because there is an all-male one isn't 'PC'. It is just wondering if doing the oposite of an action would be interesting, or balancing in terms of choices.

Although I love the idea of Witch Elves being a bastion of political correctness. I think they kinda are, in a weird Dark Elven way.

[Xurré]

Actually, the main argument people are making isn't that Witch Elves being gender specific means that they won't be included, it's that it makes no sense to pick Witch Elves when there are more appealing options to choose from that have both male and female options.

Unless of course you're arguing that only having to make one model for a career is less work than having to make a male model.
I have to echo others in that I don’t see how they’re “more appealing”... except perhaps if you include the availability of a male gender in the class as what makes them more appealing, which would be circular reasoning.

By the argument you’re making they should’ve included female Chosen too, but they didn’t. The gender choice will likely be a factor in deciding whether Witch Elves are a class or not, but it’s not the deciding factor people have been making it out to be (and the Chosen proofs that even if people still hold that the Greenskins didn’t). In fact, I think it’s a fairly minor factor in the scheme of things as other factors weigh far more strongly.


I have never played a game that does not allow me to play a male character or avatar. I hardly think I am alone in that regard. Most people, and by most I mean the vast majority, will choose their own gender to match their character's in a game.
Great! Here’s 23 classes for you to choose from. Have fun.

I seriously, seriously doubt that there being one class that’s female-only out of 24 classes will have anywhere near a significant impact on how many people play the game.

There's more people who do not want Witch Elves than do want them actually. There are several valid options for melee DPS that are not gender restricted and are just as iconic as Witch Elves.
Says who? What proof do you have that there are more people who don’t want Witch Elves? Did you do a scientific study? I’d like to see the results of that.

I’d also argue against there being other classes “just as iconic as Witch Elves”. I know forum polls don’t really mean anything, but I do think it seems telling that even in these forums (which is probably where you get your “proof” of more people not wanting Witch Elves too) still the vast majority of people seem to think Witch Elves are iconic. Even Cold One Knights, who I personally consider slightly more iconic, have less votes in the iconic class poll. Heck, except for the knights Witch Elves have at least twice as many votes as any other class.

[EDIT] I just noticed that the Assassins have been gaining some ground, having slightly above half the number of votes Witch Elves got at 19-to-32. I still hold that the argument holds though. Oh, and it's this poll (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14666) that I'm referring to.

I think that’s at least some indication that Witch Elves are considered, even by sceptics such as yourself (as you noted you voted for them too), to be more iconic than just about every other dark elf unit.

Yes, we all know how influential Tomb Raider is on Warhammer. I guess I can mention how you can only play a male character in about 19238012938012983901289038012 other games to bolster my argument?
Great! As I said, you can play a male character in WAR too! There’s 23 classes in fact for you to choose from.

The Tomb Raider argument is valid because it’s been argued that people wouldn’t want to play the game if they have to play a female character. Yet in Tomb Raider the only choice you have is to play a female character (much unlike WAR where you’ve got 23 male choices) and it’s still incredibly popular. So while I’m sure it is a factor for a number of people it’s not nearly as significant as some are making it out to be; it’s just significant to you perhaps.

The argument against Witch Elves is that are other valid options for melee DPS that do NOT require gender restriction. Why choose restriction over freedom? Were you also the student that reminded the teacher at the end of the class period that she forgot to assign homework as well?
Hey, I got a university degree thanks to that! :p

Seriously though, I didn’t; I usually had my homework finished before class ended. ;)

As to your question of why... as I’ve noted numerous times before one would choose them because they’re head-and-shoulders above all the other options for a class on just about every other point. You can’t just look at gender and decide, based purely on that, whether they should be in or not. That’s not how game design works.


First. Lore says similiar thing about sorcerers and we already know that this will not be a problem.
Oh god, when will people get over this already? How many times do I have to repeat this? First of all, not only does the lore not say that there aren’t male Sorceres, it explicitly states that there are.

I could go over the whole “dark elves tend to not follow the rules” thing again too, but those that haven’t listened to that before I doubt would do so now.


- Xurré

[Kellaris]

And you do have five other options to play a male damage dealer.


My first priority is Dark Elves. So thanks, I will stay here and play Tank if nothing else possible ;). And it is not becouse I thin Witches are bad. They are cool, iconic and extremely effective. But I'm RPG player many years and it is hard to me to play girl. Also, have been playing L2 a bit and I have seen enough chainmal bikini for a few years;).


I think it is fine to restrict genders to specific units to keep within the Lore. My point was that it seems silly to make even more male only class just because it is mainy men that play the game.


Agreed. But why use gender specific character (not even talking about choppa similiarity) if we have plenty of different options.
The Chosen is another problem, becouse it is hard to think of any Chaos Humans Tank different that chaos warrior. And Chaos warrior is iconic not only to Chaos, but to whole Warhammer world. They had to put it.
[/quote]


Look at my entries in the Corsair vs Witch Elf thread for my views on why Witch Elves are my number one choice for Druchii melee DPS.
[/quote]

I have looked. Agreed with most. But not all. You draw Witch Elves as assasins in bikini. And in my opinion they are not. They are so deadly effective, becouse they are not afraid to die. This is why they place theyr blows so accurately (WS 5) and this is visible in their outfit. And they are not afraid to die becouse they are drugged/frenzied fanatics.
I personally do not see anything bad in this. I love them for their deadly efectivness. But still, they ARE frenzied berserkers. ;)
All that fency staff You are writing about: precise blows, carefully applying strenght etc, it is Assasin way. A cold murderer.

[Zoatibix]

All that fency staff You are writing about: precise blows, carefully applying strenght etc, it is Assasin way. A cold murderer.

If that's what you think, you need to read my post here:

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14389&page=2

[Kellaris]

I seriously, seriously doubt that there being one class that’s female-only out of 24 classes will have anywhere near a significant impact on how many people play the game.
- Xurré

Indeed, but the same may be said about Witches being or not.



You can’t just look at gender and decide, based purely on that, whether they should be in or not. That’s not how game design works.
- Xurré

Indeed. From a game design point of view the worst problem is Choppa mirroring.


Oh god, when will people get over this already? How many times do I have to repeat this? First of all, not only does the lore not say that there aren’t male Sorceres, it explicitly states that there are.

I could go over the whole “dark elves tend to not follow the rules” thing again too, but those that haven’t listened to that before I doubt would do so now.
- Xurré

Does arguing on this point means You think Assasin should be male-only character (it Assasin will be playable of course):confused:?? Suprising.....

[Xurré]

Indeed, but the same may be said about Witches being or not.
Which was my point; gender-exclusivity cannot be used as an argument for or against a class. It is something to consider, nothing less, nothing more.

Indeed. From a game design point of view the worst problem is Choppa mirroring.
I don't think that's a problem at all. But I can see how those who don't want to see the Witch Elf as a class find it an attractive thought to think that they're the same.

Does arguing on this point means You think Assasin should be male-only character (it Assasin will be playable of course):confused:?? Suprising.....
I've thought before that there wasn't anything that specifically stated that Assassins had to be male-only, and I didn't see anything in what they were that would make it strange for them to be female. But considering that sicne then I've noticed in (older) sources that it's specifically stated that they come from boys, yes, I do think that Assassins, if included, should be male-only (unless GW says otherwise since it's their lore and they might have a different view on things).

I don't think Assassins will be a class though. Paul saying "no assassins" (note the lower-case 'a') seemed very clear to me.


- Xurré

[Bulwyf]

Xurre, if you are that determined to play a female DPS character then why not play a Witch Hunter or Hammerer? Possibly a Marauder or whatever the High Elf class will be? Saying I can play 23 other classes other than one particular race and class combination I have waited years to play cuts both ways. You are the only person I have seen that is absolutely obsessed with having only one particular class out of twenty four. You can get your kicks as a female Executioners, Corsair, Black Guard, Shade or Beastmaster just as much as a Witch Elf.

[Nathar]

Xurre, if you are that determined to play a female DPS character then why not play a Witch Hunter or Hammerer? Possibly a Marauder or whatever the High Elf class will be? Saying I can play 23 other classes other than one particular race and class combination I have waited years to play cuts both ways. You are the only person I have seen that is absolutely obsessed with having only one particular class out of twenty four. You can get your kicks as a female Executioners, Corsair, Black Guard, Shade or Beastmaster just as much as a Witch Elf.

She's arguing for a class. She never said "Then I can't be witch!" because that's not an argument. You were the one who started saying "Then I can't be male dark elf dps". She can definately get female dps kicks out of other classes but she wants witch elves in and she's using actual arguments for that and not just "but I want this!".

[wojo2024]

She's arguing for a class. She never said "Then I can't be witch!" because that's not an argument. You were the one who started saying "Then I can't be male dark elf dps". She can definately get female dps kicks out of other classes but she wants witch elves in and she's using actual arguments for that and not just "but I want this!".


Actually nathar, she's said that if witch elves aren't in the game she won't play WAR at all..that's pretty irrational don't you think?

[Drakhon]

It would only be irrational if her decision was based on spite. Rather, she believes she wouldn't enjoy her gaming experience because she would always feel like it could have been far better.

In truth, most people that I have known to have reasons like that have ended up trying it out anyway and basing their choice to play or not on other factors, but Xurré certainly knows herself far better than I do.

[Nathar]

Actually nathar, she's said that if witch elves aren't in the game she won't play WAR at all..that's pretty irrational don't you think?

Fair enough, I have not seen this statement. I still doubt that it was used as an argument because I consider her smarter then thinking there are many thinking like that. I might be wrong again though:p

And while dealing in ultimates and absolutes is irrational to me, it is sadly quite human. I pity everyone who thinks like it but if they trully won't enjoy themselves otherwise they shouldn't play the game. Their loss, not mine.

[Bulwyf]

She's arguing for a class. She never said "Then I can't be witch!" because that's not an argument. You were the one who started saying "Then I can't be male dark elf dps". She can definately get female dps kicks out of other classes but she wants witch elves in and she's using actual arguments for that and not just "but I want this!".

The person who posted after you already pointed how wrong you are but I will continue the trend. :p

I have posted in debates with Xurre for about a half a year at this point over Dark Elf melee DPS. I do not use walls of text as a debate device. Her arguments for Witch Elves always inevitably settle to "BUT I WANT THIS!" while my arguments point how many other, cooler options that aren't gender restricted for the DE melee dps class.

[Nathar]

The person who posted after you already pointed how wrong you are but I will continue the trend. :p

I have posted in debates with Xurre for about a half a year at this point over Dark Elf melee DPS. I do not use walls of text as a debate device. Her arguments for Witch Elves always inevitably settle to "BUT I WANT THIS!" while my arguments point how many other, cooler options that aren't gender restricted for the DE melee dps class.

I already responded to the point of my mistake. I was wrong. I still don't consider her arguments "I want this". That said, both sides of the discussion have been quite subjective. Even those who try to argue for both are terrible bad at hiding their opinion.

Apologies if I offended you, that was at no point my intention.

[Bulwyf]

You posted while I was writing that post, my apologies.

The sad thing is that there is no real middle ground on this debate unless Mythic does do a Disciple of Khaine class that lets you play either WE or Assassins depending on gender. I would have zero problems with that but I do not know how feasible it is for them to do that.

[Thrakkesh]

The person who posted after you already pointed how wrong you are but I will continue the trend. :p

I have posted in debates with Xurre for about a half a year at this point over Dark Elf melee DPS. I do not use walls of text as a debate device. Her arguments for Witch Elves always inevitably settle to "BUT I WANT THIS!" while my arguments point how many other, cooler options that aren't gender restricted for the DE melee dps class.

The cute thing about highlighting this (and making your arguments sound a bit better) is that your definition of cool is just as subjective as her "I want this" and thus about as valid.

Even if she's basically repeating herself, highlighting other options because they're 'cool' and 'not restrictive' isn't any better because they're only cooler in your opinion and your idea of restrictive (and the important of it being a girl or guy BEING restrictive) is relative. For instance? I'm a guy, I don't find the idea restrictive in the slightest. Ohnoes. It's a bunch of polygons shaped like a girl. I feel so dirty. Etc... I don't even think I'd play the class. (I'm really strongly leaning towards a tank class or caster DPS, as I tend to gravitate towards melee DPS classes usually and want to play with something new), but feeling 'restricted' because a video game character is only male or female just strikes me as silly.

Do not worry, your relative manliness (or femininity) is not endangered because the polygons you choose happen to resemble a female or male. Seriously, there isn't anything wrong with the idea of Witch Elves.

Here, let me address a few of my feelings on what's cooler and could serve as DPS.

Cosairs: I do not think Cosairs are cooler then Witch Elves. I have no supporting evidence for this, nor do I need it. I simply feel that way. I would not be interested. Next!

Black Guard: I have never liked Black Guard and I never will. I do not feel they would be cooler than Witch Elves, and I think 500 of Malekith's personal guard running around would be silly! Next.

Assassins: I do not even like the idea of Assassins being playable. Mythic has no intention of doing stealth-style classes, so the potential for a largely generic representation is likely. Plus they're male only, which is restrictve. Next.

Executioners: Okay I think this is cooler then Witch Elves. Plus they can be both! So this is probably where we would agree and both be satsified (in that I might actually roll this).

[Black Razor]

The person who posted after you already pointed how wrong you are but I will continue the trend. :p

I have posted in debates with Xurre for about a half a year at this point over Dark Elf melee DPS. I do not use walls of text as a debate device. Her arguments for Witch Elves always inevitably settle to "BUT I WANT THIS!" while my arguments point how many other, cooler options that aren't gender restricted for the DE melee dps class.

See the text in red completely invalidates your arguments though. You are arguing on the basis of what YOU think is cooler. Therefor your argument is no more or less selfish then Xurre's.

[Xurré]

Well, this is certainly an... interesting experience; people jumping to my defense (and thanks to those who did). ;)

For the record, yes I have said that if Witch Elves aren’t a player class then likely I won’t play the game. And no, I’ve never said that as an argument for why the class should be included or not, or even used it in any way, shape or form as some kind of indication that this means that a lot of people won’t play it. In fact, I though I’ve been very clear that it is my own, personal hang-up and my own problem (and likely my own loss, since even without the class I’m sure the game will be great).

So why have I said that? Again, because I want to be honest about my stance on this, wanting people to understand how strongly I feel for this point. I think that I wouldn’t be able to enjoy playing this game if I know that the setting offers something as unique and interesting (to me) as Witch Elves, if in fact the game includes dark elves as a playable race, but then doesn’t allow me to play such a class. I think it would remove my enjoyment from playing other classes being reminded of that constantly (classes, I’m sure, I would enjoy otherwise). I’ve likened it before to playing a Star Wars game and, while having a great love for jedi, not being able to play one (and still seeing and hearing references everywhere to them ingame). In a way, if Mythic doesn’t have the class then I think their view of Warhammer and my view of Warhammer are just too different, which is fine (there are numerous games I don’t enjoy playing even if many, many people do), just makes it a game not for me (which should also be fine).

Maybe that weakens my argument—maybe it even completely invalidates it, so be it—but never have I tried or wanted to use it as an argument for the inclusion of the class. And I think that anyone who feels that my arguments for including Witch Elves as a class, in the end, come down to “BUT I WANT THIS!” hasn’t understood a word of what I’ve been saying. So much in fact that I’d doubt they’d even read a word of what I’ve written.

I feel that I’ve done nothing but point out good, solid reasons for why Witch Elves should, in my opinion, be a class regardless of my personal feelings (which, yes, happen to coincide with that and I’ve been nothing but truthful and honest about that either). So I feel it’s rather... disingenuous to suggest otherwise. One might disagree with the arguments I’ve made, but if so then please discuss them instead of trying to attack my character.

Thank you.


- Xurré

[Bulwyf]

See the text in red completely invalidates your arguments though. You are arguing on the basis of what YOU think is cooler. Therefor your argument is no more or less selfish then Xurre's.

Not exactly. I am not arguing for any particular class (well I would argue for Cold One Knight as tank class as long as we get mounted combat but that is another debate) for the melee DPS slot though. All I am saying, and have been saying for months if not a full year or more on this site, is that there are so many other just as valid options at that spot why pick the one that is gender restricted? Why pick the one that is guaranteed to become the Night Elf hunter class of this game with 15 year olds picking something they can skeet over the keyboard with? Why not pick one of the other iconic, cool, deadly etc classes? Why MUST it be Witch Elves?

That is what I am debating for. More inclusion, less exclusion. I am not being selfish in making a blanket demand like "I want X class or screw you Mythic, I won't play your game!!" as some others have done with Witch Elves. All I'm saying is Mythic, pick a melee DPS class that has both genders and it is cool. And lucky for us! there are plenty of classes that fits both criteria.

[Xurré]

Not exactly. I am not arguing for any particular class (well I would argue for Cold One Knight as tank class as long as we get mounted combat but that is another debate) for the melee DPS slot though. All I am saying, and have been saying for months if not a full year or more on this site, is that there are so many other just as valid options at that spot why pick the one that is gender restricted? Why pick the one that is guaranteed to become the Night Elf hunter class of this game with 15 year olds picking something they can skeet over the keyboard with? Why not pick one of the other iconic, cool, deadly etc classes? Why MUST it be Witch Elves?
You might have been arguing for months if not a year, but apparently you haven’t been listening to anyone else’s arguments but your own or you wouldn’t have to ask the same question again and again.

You’re making a faulty argument by saying “there are so many other just as valid options” as the basis for your conclusion that they should have a class that’s gender-inclusive. Because they’re not all equal. They all have their strong points and weak point, some more so than others. And taking everything together, as I’ve been arguing for months, Witch Elves come out stronger than every other class (including the drawback of their gender-restrictiveness). That is why it should be picked as a class.

Arguing against a class based almost purely on your personal tastes and feelings is just as bad as arguing for one on similar basis (and again, I don’t feel I’ve done that).

That is what I am debating for. More inclusion, less exclusion. I am not being selfish in making a blanket demand like "I want X class or screw you Mythic, I won't play your game!!" as some others have done with Witch Elves. All I'm saying is Mythic, pick a melee DPS class that has both genders and it is cool. And lucky for us! there are plenty of classes that fits both criteria.
Ad Hominem arguments are always fun, but I’ve never, ever put it like that. In fact, I’ve taken great care to always make clear that I do feel the game will be great even if they don’t include Witch Elves as a playable class. It just won’t be a game for me I feel. And that is not a crime; that should be alright (not everyone has to like or play a game).

You’re arguing as if the only criteria for a class are “has both genders” and “is cool”, but that’s far from the case as I’ve shown again and again.

In the end Witch Elves just seem to come out much better than any other potential class.


- Xurré

[Selendor]

In the end Witch Elves just seem to come out much better than any other potential class.

- Xurré

No they don't. That's completely a matter of opinion, and stating it as fact doesn't make it a valid argument. I'll fully admit that I would prefer Executioners as the DPS class, but they seem very hard to implement. That said, I'd still rather take a Corsair, Black Guard, Assassin, even a basic Warrior over a Witch Elf. That's my opinion. However, all you're doing is saying "I want Witch Elves because they're my favorite!", in my opinion. True, we're all using arguments, but our own personal preferences will always taint logic and reasoning. We'll just have to wait and see what Mythic does. But in the mean time, I think it's beyond presumptuous to make the claim that your favorite class is the best candidate bar none, when there are obviously options which appeal to players just as much if not more.

[Xurré]

No they don't. That's completely a matter of opinion, and stating it as fact doesn't make it a valid argument. I'll fully admit that I would prefer Executioners as the DPS class, but they seem very hard to implement. That said, I'd still rather take a Corsair, Black Guard, Assassin, even a basic Warrior over a Witch Elf. That's my opinion. However, all you're doing is saying "I want Witch Elves because they're my favorite!", in my opinion. True, we're all using arguments, but our own personal preferences will always taint logic and reasoning. We'll just have to wait and see what Mythic does. But in the mean time, I think it's beyond presumptuous to make the claim that your favorite class is the best candidate bar none, when there are obviously options which appeal to players just as much if not more.
If it makes you feel better make that “...just seems to me...” then (and I’m always so careful to make it clear that what I post is my view).

Does my own personal opinion color my view of things? Yes, I’m sure it does and in that too I’ve been nothing but honest. But I also feel that this doesn’t disable me from making a well-reasoned and logical argument for/against classes. And when I do that then, yes, it seems to me that Witch Elves come out better than the others. Simply because there are people who would like other classes more doesn’t make those classes better candidates. Like and dislike shouldn’t play a part in what classes to choose (unless you can say with great certainty that it’s a significantly large portion of future players and since nobody can do that this is all subjective... and the only one’s subjective view who matter here is that of Mythic, which we aren’t privy to and as such can’t argue from that angle).

Of course we can all just “wait and see”... but if we did that then these forums wouldn’t even exist, since there’d be nothing to discuss.


- Xurré

[wojo2024]

Of course we can all just “wait and see”... but if we did that then these forums wouldn’t even exist, since there’d be nothing to discuss.


- Xurré

Sometimes I feel the Dark Elf Melee DPS topic is the only thing being discussed lol.

[Selandri]

Witch Elf / Corsair and Female Chosen are the primary topics.

Well, maybe not in the other racial forums but who wants to know what pansy dorfs and oomies are up to? :P

[Bulwyf]

No they don't. That's completely a matter of opinion, and stating it as fact doesn't make it a valid argument. I'll fully admit that I would prefer Executioners as the DPS class, but they seem very hard to implement. That said, I'd still rather take a Corsair, Black Guard, Assassin, even a basic Warrior over a Witch Elf. That's my opinion. However, all you're doing is saying "I want Witch Elves because they're my favorite!", in my opinion. True, we're all using arguments, but our own personal preferences will always taint logic and reasoning. We'll just have to wait and see what Mythic does. But in the mean time, I think it's beyond presumptuous to make the claim that your favorite class is the best candidate bar none, when there are obviously options which appeal to players just as much if not more.

Thank you. I find it surreal when Xurre and her associates attack me for making ad hominem attacks or stating something which is purely my opinion or preference when they are gasp! doing the exact same thing.

Xurre, your list of reasons for why you prefer WE is exactly that: YOUR reasons. In my opinion the bonuses of the other classes individually overcomes the argument for WE. So while yes, we simply can say "wait and see" and not having anything to talk about on this forum we can at least agree that blanket statements like the ones you are fond of making only pertain to you.

And that applies to me as well. My reasons for not wanting them in are my own. My reasons for putting in something else (I also would prefer Executioners) are my own. Gender exclusion is not the only criteria I go by.

[Harlequin]

From a gamedesigner's point of view, this is not balancing, but multiplying the problem.
It is balancing only when You terribly want to be politically correct.

Fair enough. I actually didn't mean 'balance' in the sense of game balance. I was speaking more along the lines of 'matching' I guess.

And as for them wanting to be politically correct ~ I'm not sure that consideration even registers with the blokes at WAR!

[Thrakkesh]

Just as a casual aside for some perspective, can someone tell why it is so important that we must have a class in which the polygons for the model form the shape of a male instead of female and why not having that would hurt in some way?

I'm seriously curious about this, why does it matter that much, ultimately? I almost feel the same way about Chosen females--why does it matter whether the giant hunk of armor looks like a GIRL or a guy? It's a game! I can understand people being like "Huh, that's kind of ick" but people are making such a huge deal out of this.

[V'raneth]

Just as a casual aside for some perspective, can someone tell why it is so important that we must have a class in which the polygons for the model form the shape of a male instead of female and why not having that would hurt in some way?

I'm seriously curious about this, why does it matter that much, ultimately? I almost feel the same way about Chosen females--why does it matter whether the giant hunk of armor looks like a GIRL or a guy? It's a game! I can understand people being like "Huh, that's kind of ick" but people are making such a huge deal out of this. Because some of us still think of our characters as characters and not just toys to play with. It's a matter of imagination. Some people enjoy using theirs, others don't; and some only like to use theirs in certain situations.

Back on topic - I'll add that I can't imagine fielding a Dark Elf army without Witch Elves. I don't care if I really need them, I need them. Also, consider how many instances of Witch Elf art are found across the spectrum of Dark Elf literature. I would venture a guess that they might very well hold the #1 position for the most depicted Dark Elf. Executioners don't even come close. Assassins would be up there and so would Corsairs, but I wouldn't believe for a minute that they would outrank Witch Elves.

[Kellaris]

Back on topic - I'll add that I can't imagine fielding a Dark Elf army without Witch Elves. I don't care if I really need them, I need them. Also, consider how many instances of Witch Elf art are found across the spectrum of Dark Elf literature. I would venture a guess that they might very well hold the #1 position for the most depicted Dark Elf. Executioners don't even come close. Assassins would be up there and so would Corsairs, but I wouldn't believe for a minute that they would outrank Witch Elves.

According to tabletop game, You are 100% right. I also use them ALLWAYS.
But this is not tabletop game. Using frenzied berserkers in Your army is a bit different, than roleplaying them.
Also, in tabletop game I'm assuming the position of Lord Commander and only use Witch Elves (like pets) to fulfill my goal. They work perfectly on that position. And, as You propably know they cannot lead armies. Which is perchaps, becouse they are not resonable. They do not think, they act. You know, They are frenzied berserkers......;)
What is good on tabletop, not always is the boest choice for MMORPG.

And don't forget about choppa mirroring :wink:.

[Zoatibix]

Just as a casual aside for some perspective, can someone tell why it is so important that we must have a class in which the polygons for the model form the shape of a male instead of female and why not having that would hurt in some way?


Some people want to play a toon of their own gender, others (like myself) aren't bothered either way.

For a few people they simply can't imagine themselves as a different gender (while being a hulking sentient fungus warrior with a British lout accent is okay :confused:) Others simply prefer a male toon or female toon to match their own gender.

Also there is the argument that Witch Elves will attract those horrible WoW players, who as we know are the spawn of Satan himself.

Personally, after twenty five years of roleplaying in various forms I tend to pick a gender based on what I think will best fit the class or race combo, or has some rarity as part of said combo.

@ Kellaris: Witch Elf vs Corsairs thread, your objections have already been addressed.

[Blaze]

Personally, after twenty five years of roleplaying in various forms I tend to pick a gender based on what I think will best fit the class or race combo, or has some rarity as part of said combo.

I'm exactly the same. I don't really see why some people refuse to play a gender different from their own, but I can respect that some just prefer to do so.

I'm male, but if a character would be somehow "cooler" as a female I will play a female. It may be stereotypical somehow, but whenever I play warrior/melee types I tend to go for male and when I play spellcaster types I tend to play females. Might make an exeption if Witch Elves are in tho :D

[Zoatibix]

I have posted in debates with Xurre for about a half a year at this point over Dark Elf melee DPS. I do not use walls of text as a debate device. Her arguments for Witch Elves always inevitably settle to "BUT I WANT THIS!" while my arguments point how many other, cooler options that aren't gender restricted for the DE melee dps class.

Xurre, myself and others have made long posts because we feel there are several points that need discussing in the debate.

Fair enough if you don't like long posts, but you can't dismiss them simply because they are 'too long'. It isn't as if either of us is presenting you with a discertation.

At the moment there aren't many Druchii specific topics to debate. One of the Captains was good enough to open a thread here with an elequoent summation of the debate so far. So we have taken ourselves out of everybody else's way to discuss something that specifically intrests us.

The only contribution you have made to that thread so far is:

Am I the only person that would prefer Executioners as the DE melee dps class? I would take Corsairs over WE but I'd prefer Executioners.

Now I know are against Walls of Text, but that seems an awful lot like naked preference.

We are allowed to say 'We want this!' just as much as the Corsairs or Executioners are. But we have to explain why we want it in a logical fashion. This we have done.

I will reiterae my great respect for the humour, dedication and good manners of the 'Captains' in this discussion.

[Kellaris]

Just as a casual aside for some perspective, can someone tell why it is so important that we must have a class in which the polygons for the model form the shape of a male instead of female and why not having that would hurt in some way?

I'm seriously curious about this, why does it matter that much, ultimately?


If You smplify this matter to polygons, why bother to make different armours. Why bother to do different faces, hairstyles, trophies. Lets make our avatars balls. White ball = order, black ball = destruction.
Why not having human shape would hurt in some way?

That was explanation. In fact, I also think that in all Witch discussions, gender problem is smallest one. But as Zoatibix remind me, this was discussed elswhere.;)

[Noli me Tangere]

Non sequitur, really. Just because another class in the game is gender specific doesn't mean that they have to have other classes balance that out. It would be nice, but one does not have to equal the other. Still, I really do think Witch Elves seem like a choice they'd make. They seem popular, if for no other reason.

Then again, my own personal taste would be hoping that if they did a female only class, that they'd do so of one that was less affected by a severe lack of clothing. :rolleyes:

[Selendor]

Hmmmmm. Funny, I could have sworn I've seen people say that they have to include Witch Elves now that they have 5 "male only" classes (it's 1, by the way - now who's being closed-minded?)...if it really doesn't matter, than that argument doesn't really work. It goes both ways. Either gender 'is' important and we should make sure that the options are there, or it isn't, and Mythic might as well make all the careers male only.

[Zoatibix]

You're making it out to be an either or choice, which it isn't.

Gender can still be a factor, just a smaller one than other others.

If Witch Elves have good abilities, an interesting playstyle and look cool enough then that can override the minor problem of gender restriction.

As others have said, it isn't that no chosenette's must mean Mythic must or will put in Witch Elves just that one potential argument against them has been removed.

[Bulwyf]

You're making it out to be an either or choice, which it isn't.

Gender can still be a factor, just a smaller one than other others.

If Witch Elves have good abilities, an interesting playstyle and look cool enough then that can override the minor problem of gender restriction.

As others have said, it isn't that no chosenette's must mean Mythic must or will put in Witch Elves just that one potential argument against them has been removed.

Back to what I said to Xurre: in YOUR opinion gender restriction is a "small" factor. For people like myself who see their ingame avatars as an expression of themselves it is not a "small" factor.

The reality is that Destruction already has one race of asexual fungus and one gender restricted class on what is visually one of the coolest classes in the game so far. Why should the "bad" guys keep having more and more restrictions to keep gamers from playing them? Gender exclusion is a bad design. Especially for starting classes in a new game. Especially when you only have four classes per race. Especially when the IP provides examples of both genders in so many great classes that you have to be mad to go out of your way to pick one when you have so many other options.

[Zoatibix]

I said 'smaller than others'. It can still be a large factor without being the biggest.

Why is gender exclusion 'bad design', please?

[Kellaris]

Back to what I said to Xurre: in YOUR opinion gender restriction is a "small" factor. For people like myself who see their ingame avatars as an expression of themselves it is not a "small" factor.


In fact it was my opinion on the beginning. Even if I completly agree with You about avatars as expression of ourselves matter. I think it is a small factor, becouse people thinking like You and I are vastly outnumbered.
But still, there are other factors, like playstyle (choppa mirror), options for interesting skills (much more for Assasin) etc. And this is why Witch Elf as playable character is a mistake.
As You said, especially if there are so many different choices
Witches are loosing in every aspect except of how their look like(in my personal opinion).

[Kellaris]

Why is gender exclusion 'bad design', please?


Becouse more choices You have => more happy You are. Or more people are happy with choices they have.

[Nathar]

In fact it was my opinion on the beginning. Even if I completly agree with You about avatars as expression of ourselves matter. I think it is a small factor, becouse people thinking like You and I are vastly outnumbered.
But still, there are other factors, like playstyle (choppa mirror), options for interesting skills (much more for Assasin) etc. And this is why Witch Elf as playable character is a mistake.
As You said, especially if there are so many different choices
Witches are loosing in every aspect except of how their look like(in my personal opinion).

Assassin is gender restricting too. Wouldn't that be bad design too?

[Kellaris]

Assassin is gender restricting too. Wouldn't that be bad design too?
Assassin's gender restriction is lot softer than Witch gender restriction.
Also, I'm not thinking about Temple of Khaine Assassins. They are (in my opinion) too powerful to be playable character.
I'm thinking about Assasins trained or hired by noble houses.
A Lower league.
They are not in the ArmyBook (exactly like Zealot or mutating marauder), but certainly they exist.
And they bring us a lot of possibilities to make great, rogue-like Damage Dealer.
Subtelty, finesse, backstabbing. ;)

[Nathar]

Assassin's gender restriction is lot softer than Witch gender restriction.


I'm not saying witch elves are better, just wondering. How exactly are they not equally restricting? One allows only male, one allows only female. Personally I prefer executioners but I doubt they'll be in. I'm not making a case for witch elves but you have to realize that male only is just as restricting!

[Kellaris]

I'm not saying witch elves are better, just wondering. How exactly are they not equally restricting? One allows only male, one allows only female. Personally I prefer executioners but I doubt they'll be in. I'm not making a case for witch elves but you have to realize that male only is just as restricting!
Please, read the rest of my post

[Noli me Tangere]

And they bring us a lot of possibilities to make great, rogue-like Damage Dealer.
Subtelty, finesse, backstabbing. :wink:None of these things really fit, actually, unless you added in a stealth mechanic, which, I hope, nobody here wants. Not that I'm against the idea of an assassin, as much as that I feel the assassin is against the idea of how WAR is being developed. Just an opinion, mine, mind you, not gospel or anything.

Becouse more choices You have => more happy You are. Or more people are happy with choices they have.

Ad in a "Chosen need male and female gender options" while you're up on your soap box please. :) No seriously, I'm with the more options thing, one-hundred percent. Then again, I've met and spoken with (through one means or another) gamers that actually prefer less options. So, really, if you think about it, there are all sorts of sides on any given subject like this.. I suppose.

As is, actually, whether you like the idea of Witch Elves or not.. they actually make a certain amount of sense. Not that there aren't other options. Just saying, it's perfectly understandable why some would want them.

[Nathar]

Please, read the rest of my post

Fair enough, I missed a single word and deeply apologize. "not" temple of Khaine changes a lot.

That said I think that would be a terrible waste of awesome lore possibilities. I mean there's not much interesting lore to none-temple assassins. That is of course my personal opinion and in a thread like this I realize that is hardly a valid argument:D

Again, I'm sorry, I missed the "not" in your sentence.

[Kellaris]

That said I think that would be a terrible waste of awesome lore possibilities. I mean there's not much interesting lore to none-temple assassins. That is of course my personal opinion and in a thread like this I realize that is hardly a valid argument:D



I think the Lore is the same. This is just lower league. They look the same. Their methods are similiar. Only difference is, that they have not been ritually kidnapped and thrown to boiling blood. So only difference is recrutation ;)

Executioners are also great, but there is High elf problem. Theyr only Damage Dealer options are White Lion and Swordmaster. Executioneers may be considered mirroring then.

[Nathar]

I think the Lore is the same. This is just lower league. They look the same. Their methods are similiar. Only difference is, that they have not been ritually kidnapped and thrown to boiling blood. So only difference is recrutation ;)

You are correct on those things, but since they're not temple assassins they want show that aspect of dark elves. I would personally like a class devoted to Khaine (more then the average elf). Of course this is again personal opinion and some will agree, some won't.

Executioners are also great, but there is High elf problem. Theyr only Damage Dealer options are White Lion and Swordmaster. Executioneers may be considered mirroring then.

You are right and that is why I don't think they'll make it in. I find witch elves most likely, but not most attractive to me (attractive as in "I want them in game", not "drooool").

[Kellaris]

You are correct on those things, but since they're not temple assassins they want show that aspect of dark elves. I would personally like a class devoted to Khaine (more then the average elf). Of course this is again personal opinion and some will agree, some won't.


Mythic have stated that all players will work for some noble family (Urion??), as a fraction in interial politics also.
From that point of view, some freelancer/mercenary assasin would be more appriopriate than someone loyal only to the Temple and Malekith himself. Note that this is also argument agains Witch Elves.

[Kellaris]

None of these things really fit, actually, unless you added in a stealth mechanic, which, I hope, nobody here wants. Not that I'm against the idea of an assassin, as much as that I feel the assassin is against the idea of how WAR is being developed. Just an opinion, mine, mind you, not gospel or anything.


From my experience in L2 backstabbers without stalth can work pretty cool.
Also, backstab mechanic is already in game (Witchhunter).

[Xurré]

Back to what I said to Xurre: in YOUR opinion gender restriction is a "small" factor. For people like myself who see their ingame avatars as an expression of themselves it is not a "small" factor.
But that's just it... it is your personal reasoning and which class you would play. That's teh key difference I think... you're judging purely on which class you personally would play (or at least it seems that way to me). While I'm trying to take a step back and show from a design perspective which class makes the most sense to include in the game. And in doing that gender really is a fairly small factor. It might be important to you personally, but it's a small thing in the larger scheme of things.


- Xurré

[Bulwyf]

But that's just it... it is your personal reasoning and which class you would play. That's teh key difference I think... you're judging purely on which class you personally would play (or at least it seems that way to me). While I'm trying to take a step back and show from a design perspective which class makes the most sense to include in the game. And in doing that gender really is a fairly small factor. It might be important to you personally, but it's a small thing in the larger scheme of things.


- Xurré

In YOUR opinion. I can not remember the last time I have seen someone on a forum so convinced their opinion is a fact. It is my personal opinion that gender restriction is a significant design factor. In your personal opinion it is not. Neither one is factual or even relative to Mythic unless Mythic actually says how much weight they include it as a factor.

I also have shown in some of the several dozen threads over the last half year why I prefer the other classes to WE for the DPS slot. That includes more than gender restriction. WE boiled down are nothing more than chainmail bikinis that use drugs to copy the Choppa as a game design in this game.

[Kimmie]

i agree with xurre. witch elves are just perfect for war.

[Kellaris]

But that's just it... it is your personal reasoning and which class you would play. That's teh key difference I think... you're judging purely on which class you personally would play (or at least it seems that way to me). While I'm trying to take a step back and show from a design perspective which class makes the most sense to include in the game.
- Xurré

Sorry to say, but Your step back does not work. From design perspective, it is impossible to miss the similiarity of Witch and Choppa. From my point of view, You have Your opinion and You are trying to make some ideology to it. I'm pretty sure, from Your point of view I'm doing the same.
And I don't think me or Bulwyf is able to convince You.
But try to really make Your step back. And try to see mechanics of the game. Not only skins. Then, maybe You will see that there is no difference between herbs and mushrooms. Frenzy and frenzy.
From design perspective, is that beautyful Witch Elf skin so important to duplicate existing idea?
I hope not.

[V'raneth]

I believe there are much more than one way to create a frenzied character mechanic. Could you make Witch Elves play exactly like Choppas? Of course you could, but why would you want to do that when you could create something new? Simply because they both would gain power by doing damage, doesn't mean they have to do it the same way, or use that power the same way.

[Xurré]

From design perspective, it is impossible to miss the similiarity of Witch and Choppa.
It's also impossible to miss the similarity between Black Orcs, Chaos Chosen, Ironbreakers and Knights of the Blazing Sun. They're all heavy-armor oriented tanks. And yet, they're all four of them in the game. Now you might point out "but they all work differently"... and I'm saying that the same will be true for Witch Elves and Choppas too. Just because they're both frenzy-type characters (just as the tanks are all heavy-armor types) doesn't mean they have to or will play the same.


- Xurré

[Kellaris]

It's also impossible to miss the similarity between Black Orcs, Chaos Chosen, Ironbreakers and Knights of the Blazing Sun. They're all heavy-armor oriented tanks. And yet, they're all four of them in the game. Now you might point out "but they all work differently"... and I'm saying that the same will be true for Witch Elves and Choppas too. Just because they're both frenzy-type characters (just as the tanks are all heavy-armor types) doesn't mean they have to or will play the same.

- Xurré


There is also problem of possible options. From definition, Tank have to be heavy armoured. This is why we call him tank.
Damage Dealer is a different matter. Becouse there are a few kinds of Damage Dealers. We have 2hand weapons, duals, daggers. A few options, so why not to use more than one??

[Kellaris]

I believe there are much more than one way to create a frenzied character mechanic. Could you make Witch Elves play exactly like Choppas? Of course you could, but why would you want to do that when you could create something new? Simply because they both would gain power by doing damage, doesn't mean they have to do it the same way, or use that power the same way.


OK. From my personal experience as game designer.
All numbers are here to serve as example and have no connection to reality.
For game like this, every character needs 20 skills.
But there is a limited number of skills that You can think of. Skills make some changes to usual mechanic, and there is always limited number of theese changes. And this is math; if You are not Einstein, You will not change it.
There may be 10 great skills, 20 good enough and 40 pathetic. If You have 1 character of chosen type, there is no problem. You take 10 great skills and 10 good enough.
But if You have 2 similiar characters, You have 2 options. You use pathetic skills, or You use some skills for both characters. Of course You will make different skins for theese skills, but they will be still the same ones.
Fireball, lightning or dark energy bolt. Different names and flashes. But they all just take 100 HP.
So, if we will fave choppa an Witch in one game, differences will be ilusory.
Of course, it might happen, that they have 40 great skills for one type of character, but i wouldn't belive in that.

[Selandri]

I believe Zoatibix came up with a very impressive way of doing Witch Elves mechanic. It was unique and people seemed very impressed.

Choppas would be about brute force, Witch Elves about agility, one would assume. There's a difference already. Every class will have similarities, saying 'Oh both are frenzied' is silly, especially since there's no 'Choppa' frenzied orc class in tabletop, so who said they have to stick to the tabletop rules?

Witch Elves are a highly iconic class with a lot going for them. Sadly if I go into what they have going for them it'll be turned around into a 'Oh you just want Witch Elves, all they are is bikini + frenzy' so I see no point in doing that. The pros and cons have been done to death at any rate. We'll find out soon enough.

[Kellaris]

I believe Zoatibix came up with a very impressive way of doing Witch Elves mechanic. It was unique and people seemed very impressed.


Normally, I'm trying to avoid unconstructive criticism of someone else work.
But, to answer to Your post, I have to say that. So, my apologise to Zoatibix.
I believe Zoatibix came up with a very impressive skins and ideas.
To do WE mechanic, You need to know game mechanic. Stats, propability of hits etc.
Without that knowledge, we cannot say if any particular skill idea makes sense or not.
With all respect to her/his work, without numbers it proves nothing.


Choppas would be about brute force, Witch Elves about agility, one would assume. There's a difference already. Every class will have similarities, saying 'Oh both are frenzied' is silly, especially since there's no 'Choppa' frenzied orc class in tabletop, so who said they have to stick to the tabletop rules?


They don't have to stick to anything. But if You take frenzy from WE, they will no longe be WE.
About Similiarites:
DD/DPS class
2 fand weapons
almost unarmored
frenzied

and Differences:
Strenght vs Agility
....Have I missed something?? O yes, the skin.
Is it really so much different if i will be chopping 6 times per second instead of 5??
Agility is great, but to use Agility, You need to be smart. Means You need to think.
And when You are frenzied, You think only about chopping people. Bathing in their blood later.
If You want smart, agile fighter, he must not be frenzied. And not frenzied Witch is not a Witch.


We'll find out soon enough.


Indeed

[Gaazruk]

I personally will make my main be a corsair if they are implemented, but if witch elves are in then I will see what other DEs classes their are and if none appeal to me then im going Choppa.

[Selandri]

Nobody can supply numbers at the moment. Everything works the same way if you break it down into small enough pieces, so there's no way to argue for or against Witch Elves and a frenzy mechanic. I do believe Mythic can come up with a way, if they choose to, to incorporate Witch Elves as a unique and interesting class.

You are also discarding the wealth of fluff on Witch Elves which appeals far more to me than the rather simplistic view of their tabletop statistics.

[Thrakkesh]

I think there's a more dire and pressing topic to discuss.

What the hell are we going to talk about when they finally announce the classes!

And, will we still be either to look each other in the eye afterwards? :D

[Selandri]

Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!

Or deal with it. I think basing your playing of the game on if one or another class gets in is a bit illogical. I mean, I love Witch Elves, I can see them being the perfect unit and I would play one in a heart beat, yet at this point I don't think they'll get in for various reasons. That said, I won't play WAR because it may or may not have Witch Elves, I'll play WAR because it's made by a company I trust, a company I've seen do wonders with another game which I enjoyed immensely, a company who have been very good to us in terms of information and general good humour. Etc, etc, etc.

Plus I know it's going to be a rockin good time. And it's Warhammer. Warhammer I don't have to go broke buying a new miniature for? Woot. Bring it on, fries with that please.

Please note: While I do not, at this point, believe Witch Elves will get in, that does not in any way shape or form imply that I do not believe they would make a cracking good class for the game. I still hold to that.

[Xurré]

There is also problem of possible options. From definition, Tank have to be heavy armoured. This is why we call him tank.
I don't agree with that at all. A 'tank' is a name for a certain role in combat; that of being able to attract the attention of the enemy. To do this they need to be able to survive for a long while (or rather classes that are able to survive are said to be able to 'tank').

The most traditional way of doing this is by having lots of armor to mitigate damage (and often more health points to begin with), yes. But it isn't the only way. One can have a dodge-based tank who wears light armor or no armor at all and survives by avoiding the blows in the first place. Then one could have a tank based on magical shielding (a wizard with a fire-shield up, for example, would be able to tank against a fire elemental; and a shield-magic type wizard would be able to tank without armor). Or a tank could be based on self-heals where they take the damage, but are able to hold out for a long while by healing the damage back. Again this doesn't require heavy armor.

So I'd say that saying a tank has to have, by definition, heavy armor is misguided at best. Simply because, so far, Mythic has chosen for all its tank classes to be heavy-armor based doesn't make that the only kind of tank that there can be.


Normally, I'm trying to avoid unconstructive criticism of someone else work.
But, to answer to Your post, I have to say that. So, my apologise to Zoatibix.
I believe Zoatibix came up with a very impressive skins and ideas.
To do WE mechanic, You need to know game mechanic. Stats, propability of hits etc.
Without that knowledge, we cannot say if any particular skill idea makes sense or not.
With all respect to her/his work, without numbers it proves nothing.
Actually, it proves that it's at least theoretically possible to have a frenzy which sounds quite fun in a way quite different from what's been done with the Choppa (and I had a few examples myself as well, which weren't nearly as interesting sounding ;)). And that was all it was trying to do: prove that there are other potential ways.


I think there's a more dire and pressing topic to discuss.

What the hell are we going to talk about when they finally announce the classes!

And, will we still be either to look each other in the eye afterwards? :D
There'll always be things to discuss. First they'll announced the class names, but probably not the roles yet. So we can discuss what roles these classes might fall into and how they might work. Then they'll release more information, including pictures I'm sure, which means we can discuss how they look, what we thing of the descriptions, how their skills might work together with other parts of the game, etc, etc.

The more information they release the more there is to discuss. At the moment we're really just re-hashing the same arguments again and again and again because there's nothing else to do. We grab onto every little bit which might seem to change the landscape even slightly (like the anouncement that there won't be female Chosen). If they actually start giving us real information then it'll be a whole new ballgame.

And we're dark elves... we don't have to be able to look each other in the eye. :p


- Xurré

[Ilairon]

Since we're on the topic of Witch Elves on a technical grounds - despite that not really being in line with the original purpose of the thread - I must say that I don't see the problem in designing them as a class for any technical reason. And I'll be the first to admit I'm biased against them being an in-game class - I think there's several posts in several threads that prove that - but I can't think of game mechanic reasons why they shouldn't be in. So what they're similar to a Choppa. If they're both Close Combat DPS they're going to be similar, at least at the outset and in their role. But it seems to me that in the beginning - abilities and appearance excluded - there are going to be similarities between any set of roles, whether it be the tanks, the CC DPS, the Range, or the Support.

Admittedly, game mechanics updates has been one of the areas I've paid less attention, so perhaps I'm off, but it seemed to me that there's already a lot of similarities between the Rune Priest, the Shaman, the Warrior Priest, and the Zealot, and there's likewise similarities between the Chosen, the KotBS, and the Black Orc, etc. I think the key is how their abilities cater to their somewhat unique stats/characteristics and how both of those progress as the character progresses.

So what if Frenzy's being used by another class? There have been ideas listed here and elsewhere (I believe) for alternate forms of Frenzy more fitting with the Dark Elf and Witch Elf character. Besides, failing that, two classes sharing one of the same abilities is not going to be the end of the world, destroy those classes, or make them exact mirrors of one another. Not unless those two classes only have that one ability.

But more than anything, it seems to me that Mythic can come up with unique abilities for any class, whether it be Choppas, Witch Elves, Witch Hunters, or Chosen. The TT game, Mordheim, and WHFRP give some interesting ideas towards abilities, but the TT really doesn't give much to any individual unit, Mordheim only gives a little bit more, and the second edition of WHFRP doesn't even include Dark Elves, except corsairs. So Mythic's going to have to invent a lot of stuff based of the lore or the character of the class. While I may not think they're the best possible class out there for a potential Dark Elf DPSer, I think there's more than enough to work with to give them a unique feel and assortment of abilities in game mechanics.

[Xurré]

Thanks, Ilairon. Maybe I won't sacrifice you after all. ;)


- Xurré

[Zoatibix]

Brevity isn’t my strong point, but I’ll try.

More choices does not automatically mean you will be happier. It is better to have two or three good choices than a dozen mediocre ones.

Both Assassins and Sorcerers will be scaled back from their table top incarnations. A single spell from a Dark Elf Sorceress can kill a dozen enemies. It isn’t going to work like that in WAR, so a similar problem won’t exist with the Assassins.

Assassins are blessed by Khaine, he chooses only the best to save and become Temple Assassins. I think a lot of people familiar with the IP will be very disappointed to find themselves playing a second class House Thug, rather than a Temple Assassin.

(Assuming that the Temple tolerates home-grown assassins. They may well operate a guild structure and fiercely protect their role in DE society. I agree, Houses may have their own Thugs, but nothing in the league of Assassins. And why waste the effort when you can outsource so effectively?)

Mirroring already exists in the High and Dark Elven armies. One maybe two at a push isn’t a huge problem, IMO. More than that and we end up with Spy vs. Spy but with Elves. Witch Elves not have a mirror except for the dreadful Maiden Guard…I’m not even sure if they are still in the HE book.

Witch Elves are not restricted to Khainite Armies only. Any noble conducting a campaign can find the Brides of Khaine fighting by his side. I, as a Lord, would see this as a very positive omen…the followers of my God of War and Murder have come to fight alongside me. There will be much enemy blood spilt and the slaves taken without number. If the Witch Elves are getting killed…then less of my own men are The blessing of Khaine (rather than his anger) would seem rather useful to a House making such a decisive campaign.

Given the Byzantine politics of the Druchii I would not be surprised in the least if interested parties sent ‘representatives’ to keep tabs on The House: Malekith, the Covenants, the Temple of Khaine. I mean really, let some Nobleman of Urion take back our lands and then declare himself king? Not going to happen.

And if you ban Witch Elves because they aren’t directly members of the House we have to then have non-Covenant Sorcerers (which Malekith won’t like), no Black Guard (a class a lot of people have expressed interest in)…if you have to keep changing Lore to explain a change you made perhaps the original change wasn’t such a good idea…

Witch Elves are a lot more than Choppas in a Bikini, as I’ve shown recently. Please view the appropriate threads.

Tanks are about absorbing attention and thus damage from the enemy to protect squishies. Hit points are just as important as high armour (moreso if spells bypass physical armour) and I’ve seen tanks that rely on huge hit point pools but less damage mitigation. There are other factors too, but those three are the biggest. A tank with a small damage pool is useless – he won’t live long enough to get healed or keep the enemy busy long enough to let the DPSers do their job. A tank that can’t hold attention is pointless.

As an aside, we don’t know if Druchii tanks will have a shield (as all others announced so far have). But that’s a strong point towards Warriors or Dread/Cold One Knights, IMO.

Yes, there are a limited number of skills one can make up but Mythic have already given themselves a challenging problem in this regard. They don’t just have to make up one set of DPS ‘abilities’ but six. From the descriptions I’ve read of the four announced so far there are (naturally) some similarities…and yet the classes are different. Mythic have managed okay so far. I think only having 40 levels really helps them in this regard.

Its unreasonable to dismiss an idea because it doesn’t come with the number work. Every idea has to come with coding that can be slotted into the WAR engine? That’s ridiculous. Under that restriction nobody can suggest anything for any class because we don’t know how to programme it in this particular game.

Witch Elves would have a completely different silhouette, less armour, fewer hit points, higher DPS, a range of poisons than a Choppa. That’s just going from the TT game stats/model. They are both Melee DPS classes from the same game, some similarities are unavoidable.


You are correct that Frenzy may rob one of rational thought but I’ve already covered that in my suggestion for Fury.

(I use Fury because discussing two similar but different ideas with the same name is bloody stupid, and I’m fed up with GW doing it in their rulebooks so refuse to repeat their mistake! It is not an attempt to ‘make it sound different’.)

[Kellaris]

I must say that I don't see the problem in designing them as a class for any technical reason. And I'll be the first to admit I'm biased against them being an in-game class - I think there's several posts in several threads that prove that - but I can't think of game mechanic reasons why they shouldn't be in. So what they're similar to a Choppa. If they're both Close Combat DPS they're going to be similar, at least at the outset and in their role.


Let's look. Marauder and Choppa. Similiar?? not exactly.
Hammerer and Witch Hunter. Similiar?? Not at all.
I can see no reason why we should be similiar if they are not.



Admittedly, game mechanics updates has been one of the areas I've paid less attention, so perhaps I'm off, but it seemed to me that there's already a lot of similarities between the Rune Priest, the Shaman, the Warrior Priest, and the Zealot,


Not exactly. Shaman is a Nuker, Warrior Priest hammers people and Zealot have a lot of curses and debuffs. Don't know what Rune priest does.
But they are clearly distinct. In otfit and mechanics.

[Kellaris]

Mirroring already exists in the High and Dark Elven armies. One maybe two at a push isn’t a huge problem, IMO. More than that and we end up with Spy vs. Spy but with Elves. Witch Elves not have a mirror except for the dreadful Maiden Guard…I’m not even sure if they are still in the HE book.
I have no problem with mirroring High Elves. Mirroring greenskins is a different matter

Witch Elves are not restricted to Khainite Armies only. Any noble conducting a campaign can find the Brides of Khaine fighting by his side. I, as a Lord, would see this as a very positive omen…the followers of my God of War and Murder have come to fight alongside me. There will be much enemy blood spilt and the slaves taken without number. If the Witch Elves are getting killed…then less of my own men are
All that is true, when we are talking about fighting enemies of the Druchii race. But not exactly when we are talking about internal politics. Backstabbing other noble lords and so on.

And if you ban Witch Elves because they aren’t directly members of the House we have to then have non-Covenant Sorcerers (which Malekith won’t like).
Malekith dislikes male sorcerers also. But we have them. And I don't think they belong to convenant.

Yes, there are a limited number of skills one can make up but Mythic have already given themselves a challenging problem in this regard. They don’t just have to make up one set of DPS ‘abilities’ but six. From the descriptions I’ve read of the four announced so far there are (naturally) some similarities…and yet the classes are different. Mythic have managed okay so far. I think only having 40 levels really helps them in this regard.
There are diffrent skills for backstabber and different for frenzied berserker and different for hammerer.


Its unreasonable to dismiss an idea because it doesn’t come with the number work. Every idea has to come with coding that can be slotted into the WAR engine? That’s ridiculous. Under that restriction nobody can suggest anything for any class because we don’t know how to programme it in this particular game.
I'm not dismissing the idea. I'm only saying, that the idea do not proove that it can be done well.

You are correct that Frenzy may rob one of rational thought but I’ve already covered that in my suggestion for Fury.

Which I don't like at all. For me Witch Elf means frenzy. Bloodlust. Bathing in blood of the enemies and then chopping more of them. Frenzy is an advantage. Any means of decreasing it means decreasing Your advantage. If You want fencing, play fencer. If You like hammers, play Hammerer. If You like frenzy and berser, play Witch.
And no fencing or other self defense. Best defense is prempive strike. If someone strikes first against You, You are dead. This is how I see Them. Personal opinion of course;)

[Zoatibix]

Er…but we are talking about fighting the enemies of the Druchii. You know, the Asur? No Noble House is going to be allowed to wage such an important campaign without very close observation by the parties I’ve suggested. That’s internal politics interfering (as often happens) with what happens in external politics.
It strikes me that what you are suggesting is a dilution of the very characterful politics of the Druchii…that’s hardly in keeping with the factional fighting we’re so renowned for. No Covenant, no Temple, no machinations of the Witch King. Just a bunch of House Elves bickering amongst each other yet all ultimately loyal to the Noble leading it. (Mutters darkly that this is all sounding very Asur like. You’ll have us dressing in white next and spoiling all our murderous fun.)
And there can be skills for Fury different from Frenzy. And from my reading of it Choppa frenzy isn’t a one dimensional spamulike mechanic. The player has to balance fatigue vs damage output.

[Kellaris]

Machinations, Yes. Convenant, Yes. Temple, Yes. But not as Player characters.
This is how I understand this. All greenskins are part of single tribe. Lot of other tribes out there. But players belongs to single one of them. Single leader, single goal.
And this is how I understand being retainer of noble house.
If one player belongs to temple, second to convenant (sect enimity here) and thrid is Malekith personal Guard, then this storyline sucks.

[Xurré]

Let's look. Marauder and Choppa. Similiar?? not exactly.
Actuall, as far as I'm aware we don't know yet how the Marauder will play (for another two weeks yet). For all we know Mythic has decided to make all destruction melee dps classes some type of frenzy class to reflect the insanely destructive nature of, well, Destruction.

I'm not sayign it'll be like that at all (in fact, it likely won't), but you can't jsut go assuming things and state them as fact (unless I've missed something, which is of course possible).

Machinations, Yes. Convenant, Yes. Temple, Yes. But not as Player characters.
This is how I understand this. All greenskins are part of single tribe. Lot of other tribes out there. But players belongs to single one of them. Single leader, single goal.
And this is how I understand being retainer of noble house.
If one player belongs to temple, second to convenant (sect enimity here) and thrid is Malekith personal Guard, then this storyline sucks.
You're really not that familiar with dark elves, are you?

Because the kind of internal strife that would create (having characters from different 'groups' like that) is exactly what typifies dark elves. Single leader, single goal... as long as that goal actually meshes with what I want. If you expect the dark elves, even of a single house, even if they're directly brothers and sisters reporting directly to their father, to just hapilly fall in line and follow orders then you really don't have a clue.

A single noble house would employ all the sources it can get (temple, coven, tribes, seamen, etc) to further its goals. A little internal strife is good for weeding out the weak and useless, making the total all the stronger.


- Xurré

[Kellaris]

Actuall, as far as I'm aware we don't know yet how the Marauder will play (for another two weeks yet). For all we know Mythic has decided to make all destruction melee dps classes some type of frenzy class to reflect the insanely destructive nature of, well, Destruction.
- Xurré
Well, we know how Marauder looks. His fighting style focuses on mutations. Not frenzy


You're really not that familiar with dark elves, are you?
- Xurré

Maybe not. It's good that at least You have this hot-line to GW;)


Because the kind of internal strife that would create (having characters from different 'groups' like that) is exactly what typifies dark elves. Single leader, single goal... as long as that goal actually meshes with what I want. If you expect the dark elves, even of a single house, even if they're directly brothers and sisters reporting directly to their father, to just hapilly fall in line and follow orders then you really don't have a clue.
- Xurré

This looks very nice, when we talk about politics.
But not when You are going to war. There, You need some basic trust to men that stand behind You. And this is why No elf will join a unit of Witches. This is why Sorceress will keep a safe distance to Assasin. Becouse no elf is stupid enough to turn his back to Witch.
Player Characters are supposed to cooperate.
Covenant Sorceress in one team with Witch is like male Witch Elf.
You cannot do that without serious hurt to the lore.

[Bluucandi]

Playing a character that wears skimpy armor is not an issue for me but rather the kind of unwanted attention and sexist treatment I'll get from male players if I play a Witch Elf.

Thus, I am discouraged about playing one.

Side Note: actually, having an avatar that's covered from neck to toe has never guaranteed protection against sexual harrasement, in my experience. :rolleyes:

[Xurré]

Well, we know how Marauder looks. His fighting style focuses on mutations. Not frenzy
Of course, those mutations might be triggered by frenzy... the more their blood-lust increases the more powerful mutations they get available (for example).

Again, I don't think it'll work like this, but it could work like this (or any other way which includes both frenzy and mutations).

Maybe not. It's good that at least You have this hot-line to GW;)
Yes, it's quite useful. It's called a "dark elves army book". :p

This looks very nice, when we talk about politics.
But not when You are going to war. There, You need some basic trust to men that stand behind You. And this is why No elf will join a unit of Witches. This is why Sorceress will keep a safe distance to Assasin. Becouse no elf is stupid enough to turn his back to Witch.
Player Characters are supposed to cooperate.
Covenant Sorceress in one team with Witch is like male Witch Elf.
You cannot do that without serious hurt to the lore.
A lack of trust doesn't mean an inability to cooperate. After all, in this war winning is in the best interest of all dark elves (and that is why they work together, not because some loyalty to a house commander).

And people don't want to join a unit of Witch Elves because they fear to become a casualty of war when caught in the frenzied whirl of their blades. (The Assassin not only knows better because, having been trained by the same temple, knows they don't lack complete control, but is also much better equipped and skilled to avoid the blades.)

There is no trust between any of the dark elves... which is exactly what makes it so interesting to see the dynamics of how they're still able to cooperate and get things done.


- Xurré

[Kellaris]

A lack of trust doesn't mean an inability to cooperate. After all, in this war winning is in the best interest of all dark elves (and that is why they work together, not because some loyalty to a house commander).
- Xurré
"Instruction Manual: How to Cooperate with Witch
Procedure A
1. Point her at enemy
2. Give her a drink
3. Try to disapear before she will stop drinking.

If there is no place to hide in immediate area, use Procedure B
1. Point her at enemy
2. Give her a drink
3. Target her with Your RXB
4. Wait until she will stop drinking
5. If she will look at You, kill immediately. We wish You better luck with next unit.
6. If she will look at enemy, give thanks to Khaine and follow Your usual bisness."
:cool:
Seriously. Lack of trust does mean an inability to cooperate. Teamwork requires trust.
You may have an ally that You do not trust. But not teammate.



And people don't want to join a unit of Witch Elves because they fear to become a casualty of war when caught in the frenzied whirl of their blades. (The Assassin not only knows better because, having been trained by the same temple, knows they don't lack complete control, but is also much better equipped and skilled to avoid the blades.)

There is no trust between any of the dark elves... which is exactly what makes it so interesting to see the dynamics of how they're still able to cooperate and get things done.
- Xurré

You may spend a week writing about "limited" frenzy, but it will not chcange this simple fact.
No Dark Elf will join Witch Elf unit. Except for Assasin but even I gave up the hope to see him playable.
Not a single one of Drichii will belive in that "controled frenzy". Neither will I.

So lets repeat: Sorceress +Witch in one team = killing the lore.

[Selandri]

Uh, the whole "Don't trust them" thing? Witch Hunters are in game.

WITCH HUNTERS.

The defense rests its case, yer honour.

[Ceilingcat]

Uh, the whole "Don't trust them" thing? Witch Hunters are in game.

WITCH HUNTERS.

The defense rests its case, yer honour.

Are you saying that Witch Hunters are untrustworthy? That's blasphemy, heretic.

[Gaazruk]

Why do you guys keep talking about assassins in some of your posts? Paul said in part 2 of his interview with jeuxonline about ''No Assassins''...

[Zoatibix]

Are you saying that Witch Hunters are untrustworthy? That's blasphemy, heretic.

I think he's pointing out that the Witch Hunters don't trust anybody....

As to the 'assassins' comment I think it refers more to stealth capable classes which can be used for griefing other players.

It's possible to implement DE Assassins without the traditional method of stealth (they would actually disguise themselves as another type of DE class or even a mob and only be revealed when they strike.)

However, to a lot of people 'assassin' equates with Stealth so they might be annoyed/dissappointed to find a class that doesnt work the way they expect.

More on the other stuff later.

[Xurré]

Seriously. Lack of trust does mean an inability to cooperate. Teamwork requires trust.
You may have an ally that You do not trust. But not teammate.
No it doesn't, not for the dark elves at least (because dark elves don't trust anyone as anyone could turn around and decide they'd be better off with you dead). Teamwork requires common goals, which in this war the dark elves have in spades. The dark elves all know that they'll be better off with all of them cooperating in this with each other, but that doesn't mean they actually trust each other.

No Dark Elf will join Witch Elf unit. Except for Assasin but even I gave up the hope to see him playable.
But you can still field them together in the same battle. There's no rule that says "if you use Witch Elves this battle you're not allowed to use any other units".

People think too much in terms of "troops" and "armies"... but players are playing characters, they play heroes and champions. They play characters that can walk around on their own without having to be in a unit of troops and, as such, the rules on what can and can't join in a unit are pretty much irrelevant. WAR will be closer, in how the individual characters relate to each other, to something like Necromunda than Warhammer Fantasy Battles because every single character moves on its own.

I don't blame dark elves for not wanting to stand shoulder-to-shoulder in the middle of a group of two-dozen or so frenzied Witches dual-wielding poisoned blades. But that doesn't mean they would be unable to team with a single one or be unable to fight in the same battle as one.


- Xurré

[Illya]

People think too much in terms of "troops" and "armies"... but players are playing characters, they play heroes and champions. They play characters that can walk around on their own without having to be in a unit of troops and, as such, the rules on what can and can't join in a unit are pretty much irrelevant. WAR will be closer, in how the individual characters relate to each other, to something like Necromunda than Warhammer Fantasy Battles because every single character moves on its own.


But didn't someone say that Witch Elves aren't even in Mordheim (the fantasy equivelant of Necromunda)? Correct me if I'm wrong, by all means, but I do believe someone wrote that somewhere.

[Ilairon]

Aye, the Dark Elf Mordheim Warband consists of Highborn (Hero - you must have at least one Highborn in your warband), Sorceress (Hero - you may only have one in your warband), Fell Blade (Hero - I believe you can have a max of two), Beastmaster (Hero - max of one), Corsairs (Henchmen), Shades (Henchmen), and Cold One Hounds (Henchmen/Beasts - You can only have two of them and only if you have a beastmaster IIRC). In a separate article, there's also rules for a Cold One, which you can give to any of your Heroes, and a Dark Elf Assassin who can join any evil warband.

[Xurré]

But didn't someone say that Witch Elves aren't even in Mordheim (the fantasy equivelant of Necromunda)? Correct me if I'm wrong, by all means, but I do believe someone wrote that somewhere.
I wouldn't even know what Mordheim is or whether they include anything related to dark elves, or what the standing of Mordheim is in regards to the lore or the game or anything like that, so I can't say anything at all on that.

I do know that the only other game I've ever seen set in the Warhammer fantasy universe to include playable dark elves do include Witch Elves. But I also know that Blood Bowl isn't being considered for WAR (which makes sense).

And I've done a little research on Mordheim. But it seems that it doesn't even officially have a dark elf warband (according to this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordheim) for example). This seems to be supported in that the miniature range (http://www.hillcity-comics.com/role_play/gw/mordheim.htm) for Mordheim doesn't include dark elves and in that the official warbands document (http://www.specialist-games.com/mordheim/assets/lrb/2Warbands.pdf) doesn't include them either.

I did find something in this document (http://www.specialist-games.com/assets/Lustria3.pdf) (just the dark elves from there (http://www.longspoon.com/druchii_lrp.pdf)), so I guess you're referring to that. Though as said that's unofficial and since it's specific to Lustria I'm not sure how relevant it is.

I also found these experimental rules on a Druchii Warband (http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:0A1IieJs4wgJ:www.mordheimer.com/warbands/experimental/druchii.htm&hl=en&strip=1) in Google cache, since the Mordheimer website doesn't seem to exist anymore since May this year, which do include Witch Elves and are developed by the fans at the druchii.net site as I understand it.

Now, it's quite possible that Muthic will take the cheap way out and only take units from the unofficial dark elf warband in Mordheim (in which case the class line-up will be: High Born, Fellblade, Beastmaster, Sorceress). But somehow I've got the feeling that will make few if any happy (no corsairs, no black guards, no dread knights, no executioners, no assassins, no shades).


- Xurré

[Estebar]

Sorry Xurré, but this (http://www.angelfire.com/super/mojomonkey/files/warbands/darkelves.pdf) is the Dark Elf warband for the Lustria expansion of Mordheim. The Dark Elves weren't included in Mordheim itself because it was felt that they could never reach the cursed city, situated within the Empire, and would have very little use for the Warpstone shards found there anyway.

Just as Ilairon said, there's a Highborn, Sorceress, Fell Blade, Beastmaster, Corsairs, Shades, and Cold One Hounds.

The rules for them were included in Town Cryer, issue 12, as mentioned here. (http://www.strike-to-stun.com/Mordheim/hiredswords.htm)

[Blaze]

My friend played Dark Elves in the city of Mordheim, since none of us wanted to make a whole new jungle to play in, having spent months making a miniature city. He just pretended they were rogue mercenaries or something :p

But anyway. While it would have made little sense to include Witch Elves in Mordheim warbands, having them help the war effort in WAR seems plausible to me.

[Gaazruk]

I think he's pointing out that the Witch Hunters don't trust anybody....

As to the 'assassins' comment I think it refers more to stealth capable classes which can be used for griefing other players.

It's possible to implement DE Assassins without the traditional method of stealth (they would actually disguise themselves as another type of DE class or even a mob and only be revealed when they strike.)

However, to a lot of people 'assassin' equates with Stealth so they might be annoyed/dissappointed to find a class that doesnt work the way they expect.

More on the other stuff later.

6:29-6:33 Paul Clearly States these exact words... ''There Will Be No Assassin Class''

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMRSLP6tKc&mode=related&search=

[Nathar]

6:29-6:33 Paul Clearly States these exact words... ''There Will Be No Assassin Class''

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMRSLP6tKc&mode=related&search=

Covered so many times!

[Gaazruk]

Covered so many times!
She was saying that they meant just no stealth like other games etc. but its pretty clear when it says ''There Will Be No Assassin Class'' .....

[Nathar]

She was saying that they meant just no stealth like other games etc. but its pretty clear when it says ''There Will Be No Assassin Class'' .....

How do you know he didn't say "There will be no assassin class"? Yes that makes a difference. There's a difference between the "Assassin" class and an "assassin" type class. There won't be any stealth "I go all invisible by pressing this button" but there could be a spin-off on the "Assassin" class. Since he didn't write it for us, we can not be sure!

[Bulwyf]

How do you know he didn't say "There will be no assassin class"? Yes that makes a difference. There's a difference between the "Assassin" class and an "assassin" type class. There won't be any stealth "I go all invisible by pressing this button" but there could be a spin-off on the "Assassin" class. Since he didn't write it for us, we can not be sure!

Exactly. He was obviously talking about assassins as a MMO archtype class not Assassins the DE killers.

[Xurré]

There’s one thing I don’t get in that argument...

Say there is an Assassin class in WAR... why would Paul make such a confusing statement? People have argued that “Paul might not have been aware that there is a dark elf unit called ‘Assassin’ and that it could work without stealth.” But if Paul isn’t aware of that, doesn’t that pretty much proof that one of the four classes isn’t the Assassin? I mean, you’d think that he would’ve looked at the dark elf class list at some point (him being a lead designer and all) and though “hey, an Assassin” (only he’d probably think it much more colorfully ;)). After all, he specifically states that dark elves have other cool stuff.

Capitalization, after all, doesn’t really carry across in speech; if people see where I’m coming from.

To me he was ‘obviously’ talking about assassins, period; Assassins classes and assassin archetypes.


- Xurré

[Nathar]

There’s one thing I don’t get in that argument...

Say there is an Assassin class in WAR... why would Paul make such a confusing statement? People have argued that “Paul might not have been aware that there is a dark elf unit called ‘Assassin’ and that it could work without stealth.” But if Paul isn’t aware of that, doesn’t that pretty much proof that one of the four classes isn’t the Assassin? I mean, you’d think that he would’ve looked at the dark elf class list at some point (him being a lead designer and all) and though “hey, an Assassin” (only he’d probably think it much more colorfully ;)). After all, he specifically states that dark elves have other cool stuff.

Capitalization, after all, doesn’t really carry across in speech; if people see where I’m coming from.

To me he was ‘obviously’ talking about assassins, period; Assassins classes and assassin archetypes.


- Xurré

This is a point. A fair point even. I've tried (might've missed it at times) to say stuff like "Might", "could be" and stuff like that. We don't know anything. There's definately a chance Assassins won't be in, there's more likely stuff (to me) but we don't know this. It's not as certain as it is claimed at times. I guess it's just a small bit of my "we don't know" campaign..

[Bulwyf]

There’s one thing I don’t get in that argument...

Say there is an Assassin class in WAR... why would Paul make such a confusing statement? People have argued that “Paul might not have been aware that there is a dark elf unit called ‘Assassin’ and that it could work without stealth.” But if Paul isn’t aware of that, doesn’t that pretty much proof that one of the four classes isn’t the Assassin? I mean, you’d think that he would’ve looked at the dark elf class list at some point (him being a lead designer and all) and though “hey, an Assassin” (only he’d probably think it much more colorfully ;)). After all, he specifically states that dark elves have other cool stuff.

Capitalization, after all, doesn’t really carry across in speech; if people see where I’m coming from.

To me he was ‘obviously’ talking about assassins, period; Assassins classes and assassin archetypes.


- Xurré

That interview was quite a long time ago. It is entirely possible that Mythic did not have the Dark Elf classes finalized by the time of that interview. The context of that interview is what is telling. He was talking about the archetype, not the exact class otherwise he would have said "there will never be Dark Elf Assassins, the boys raised in the Temple of Khaine so you don't get confused with the traditional MMO archetype that you are actually asking me about."

[Nathar]

That interview was quite a long time ago. It is entirely possible that Mythic did not have the Dark Elf classes finalized by the time of that interview. The context of that interview is what is telling. He was talking about the archetype, not the exact class otherwise he would have said "there will never be Dark Elf Assassins, the boys raised in the Temple of Khaine so you don't get confused with the traditional MMO archetype that you are actually asking me about."

To be fair you can turn that around. He didn't say "No assassin archtype, like you've seen in other MMO's. We are considering dark elf Assassins but they won't be stealthing around while being invisible" either.

Quite frankly we have little knowledge from this exact statement. If it isn't elaborated, it can mean pretty much anything. Be careful reading too much into it.

[Bulwyf]

To be fair you can turn that around. He didn't say "No assassin archtype, like you've seen in other MMO's. We are considering dark elf Assassins but they won't be stealthing around while being invisible" either.

Quite frankly we have little knowledge from this exact statement. If it isn't elaborated, it can mean pretty much anything. Be careful reading too much into it.

Oh, I agree. I have never read anything past what he actually said: this game will not have 100% invisible stealth and ergo there will not a Daoc assassin type class like shadowblades. He never said Dark Elf Assassins are in or out. I do not expect them to be in but as you said we don't really know either way to make a firm call.

[roadkizzle]

I think it's really retarded that just because they don't want people griefing others, with the whole no stealth business, that they refuse to even look at implementing assassins.

Assassins do not need to be invisible, sneaky to get their job done. In my opinion, an assassin is more of a person who is extremely skilled at killing a specific person.
People have argued that the only way that they can implement this is through the standard "stealth", originally I came up with the whole disguise as a friend or foe, but people have pointed it out, and I've realized that does really fly in the whole face of the "All the classes have a specific silhouette." busines that mythic is trying to employ.
Therefore, I proposed an option to allow the assassins to accomplish their role.
Of course, an assassin would have many positional attacks, but what could actually make an assassin so different would be an ability to allow them to bypass collision detection. This would only be for long enough for them to get through a single character, and should have a fairly long cooldown so they don't ignore everything. This would simulate them being skilled and jumping over, or sliding around, or even going under an enemy.
That would allow assassins to keep their role, and purpose without actually having any stealth mechanisms.



But, enough about assassins. Some of my biggest problems with witch elves are their gameplay mechanics.
I have always argued against them, I'm notorious for throwing out ways to make corsairs different, and unique, but no matter how much I tried, I was never able to think of a way to implement witch elves, that would represent them well, or would actually make them really interesting from a standard players perspective.

The basic way suggested, was a potion that gives you frenzy, or a "build-up" frenzy bar.

Now, for both of these, you would have poisons, which you would have to apply before you entered combat, and would probably not last much more than the first few hits.

If you do the first way of implementing frenzy, just a potion you drink, then, Witch Elves would be reduced to a naked, girl with a buff and poisons. But, if you use the bar, then you just get into every basic attack you do adds frenzy, and the powerful ones draw from this frenzy bar. Exactly like the choppa.

But, Zoatibix's idea of a bar, where when it starts empty, you have many technical, utility skills that do some damage, but the more it fills up, the more damage you start doing, but you start losing access to those utility skills as well.
This sounds like a very interesting, and unique mechanic, but it just seems to complicated, and bulky to actually be applied, for one thing, you would have ability bars that would constantly be activated, and deactivated. In addition, you would never be able to have that many abilities available, because you could only use certain abilities when you were on a specific portion of the bar.

Xurre's suggestion, of drinking a vial of blood filling a bar, which as you use abilities it would go down, just sounds to me like you have a secondary action points bar, except this one doesn't even fill up unless you want to get out of combat and drink another potion.


I feel that most supporters of witch elves want them to be in the game for mostly roleplaying reasons.


I do not think that any of the classes with information released so far are similar to each other, except for their basic roles.

For instance, take tanks, Ironbreakers grudge bar fills up depending on how much his allies take damage, as it fills, he starts doing more and more damage. Black orcs use a majority of crowd control, and chains of dirty fighting moves to incapacitate enemies and protect his friends. A KotBS uses group buffs to boost his friends fighting prowess it seems. A chosen generates magic from fighting, which I guess he uses for debuffs, or similar other spells.

For the DPS, hammerers and choppa's are similar in that they both fill up bars, but hammerers have a lot of knockdowns, and other similar attacks, while from what mythic said, I think choppa's have a lot of positional attacks. Witch hunters build up points until they can extract a "confession". The marauder, from what Paul said in an interview, unlocks mutations, which each one unlocks different attacks, and abilities.

In the Healers, Runepriests use a system of buffs, runes which provide HoT's, straight up melee dmg, and normal heals, while shamans use offensive nukes to build up waagh which they spend on healing, and are lightly armored. Warrior priests, heavily armored use melee abilities to build up RF, which they use on heals. Zealots use a complex system of hex's, which they apply to enemies, then utilize to heal, or debuff.

In Ranged DPS, Engineers use bombs, machine gun emplacements, and rifles to attack from a medium to long range. Squig Herders use squigs and bows. A Bright Wizard is an entirely offensive oriented spellcaster, with spells pretty much only doing as much damage as possible. While, the Magus has many different spells, some do damage, some crowd control, and some do debuffs.

As you can see, while each class performs his role, each does it in a very different method.

[Thrakkesh]

They are not avoiding assassins JUST because of griefing, but just as much because stealth as a mechanic is a pure headache to balance. The ability to pick and choose a battle is a huge advantage no matter what you do, and typically the only way to make it work is to have a class ridiclious when attacking from stealth and crap when not attacking from stealth. In a game where world RVR is all too common, the class that can avoid conflict is the class that will succeed vs. others.

But don't get me wrong. Any class that can choose not to engage in any RVR in anything but its terms has a stupid advantage in an RVR game.

Edit: Also, I dunno how many times I have to repeat this, but I'll just say this: Making up ideas of what you think the mechanics of what a class is going to be like is a silly, silly exercise that ultimately does nothing for either side of the argument. :/

[Gaazruk]

In my view the assassin class is more trouble than they are worth, the witch elf is far more iconic and fits the role better since no stealth etc. Do you want a guy who does some positional fighting trying to jump around you like gnomes in WoW? or do you want a bezerker who can gut 8 people at a time with her eyes closed?

[Xurré]

Assassins do not need to be invisible, sneaky to get their job done. In my opinion, an assassin is more of a person who is extremely skilled at killing a specific person.
Fair enough. But I also think that most people (particularly MMO players) when they hear ‘Assassin’ they think ‘stealth’. Having an Assassin class without stealth would seem quite misleading perhaps.

The basic way suggested, was a potion that gives you frenzy, or a "build-up" frenzy bar.
Actually, I think you’re the only one who suggested the “build-up” frenzy bar, and then I got the impression you suggested it only because it’s the same as the Choppa.

For the rest I think you’re under-representing the other options, which is probably because you don’t want to see them working. For example, you talk about how great it is that Choppas and Hammerers fill up bars, but are still different in that Hammerers get knockdowns and Choppas get positional attacks (or whatever); but somehow you don’t see a class that fills up a bar (your suggestion) and has poison to complement it for things like dots and debilitation as different?

And I think that a class that needs to continue to fight or lose frenzy (and with it more powerful attacks and/or buffs) sounds at least as interesting as one which has to fight and the more they do the harder they hit. (Which, btw, was what one of my suggestions was, I didn’t suggest one where using your abilities makes a bar go down and I didn’t say either that you’d need to be out of combat to either turn frenzy on or use poison; both of which are again your ideas). And that is just a very simple idea (I have suggested more complex ones where one has to juggle various kinds of frenzy and make decisions on-the-fly about which direction to go with it, for example).

Look at it like this if it helps. You’ve noted that all the classes currently in the game, while fulfilling similar roles, still are and play differently. Is it, then, really so hard to imagine that if they’d add Witch Elves that they’d have their frenzy (which is very well suited for the role they’d fill) in such a way that it’s still different from the other classes? So if you can have enough faith in Mythic that they’d be able to do that, can you at least see how Witch Elf frenzy, no matter how exactly it’s implemented, would make for a very fun and well-fitting gameplay style?


- Xurré

[Selendor]

Every race has 4 archetypes, yes. But you don't see Hammerers using Grudges, do you? It's weak game design to use the same gameplay mechanic twice as a "defining" feature of a class no matter how much you tweak it.

[Zoatibix]

No, you don't. Because it would be very lazy to use the same mechanic within a single race.

Either Mythic has the imagination to create six different DPS mechanics (I think they do) or they are going to have to blend or rework something they already have.

[Xurré]

Every race has 4 archetypes, yes. But you don't see Hammerers using Grudges, do you? It's weak game design to use the same gameplay mechanic twice as a "defining" feature of a class no matter how much you tweak it.
A “Grudge” sounds, to me, like something fairly… how shall I put this… stubborn. This, as I recall, is something people have been saying would make Black Guards a great tank. My point being that it fits Ironbreakers because they’re tanks, holding grudges fits a tank. Momentum and frenzy and such, on the other hand, fit a melee dps class.

Heck, if the name “frenzy” bothers you then perhaps they should just call it “fury” or “bloodlust” or such.


- Xurré

[roadkizzle]

I'd hate to break it to you Xurre, but if you think that a class called an assassin will make people hoping for a stealth class sad, then what would a WITCH elf do? People who don't know anything about the game would see the name and think, oh she's like a caster. Then they would see the model, and think oh, she's a melee/magic hybrid.
Just because a name represents something on one game, does not mean that it must be identical through all games.

Yes, all classes have their specific role that they perform in different ways.
Yes, I say that choppa's and hammerers have similar mechanics and roles. But, one is on the order side, and one is on the destruction side. Therefore, you don't get into a big mess over stepping on toes. I think that 2/6 melee dps with the same mechanic are enough.

Also, to Xurre, yes I did first mention the frenzy build up bar. This is because that's the only thing I could think of, as to how they would implement the class.


@Thrakkesh, There is a good reason why I have a desire to make up mechanisms. Yes, I know that it probably won't be exactly like I propose, even though it could possibly give mythic, in their perusing through the board an idea. But, I am just trying to show that there are at least SOME other possibilities of ways to implement a character.

If I did not show that there are other ways to implement the class, the ONLY thing people would argue about is stealth, but at least I showed that there are ways that something can be done without the stealth we see in other games. Therefore, it brings up some discussion that would just be discarded before hand.

Probably Mythic said oh, assassin means stealth, but I am trying to show that this is a bad argument to not including a unique, defining class. There are many races in warhammer with frenzied, dual-wielding, zealot classes with little armor. But, there are only two races in the entire Warhammer game which utilizes assassins. Dark Elves, and Skaven. And only dark elves are in WAR.

[Estebar]

Also, to Xurre, yes I did first mention the frenzy build up bar. This is because that's the only thing I could think of, as to how they would implement the class. You can't really blame the guy, considering every Melee DPS class mentioned down on paper so far sounds like it has a build-up bar.

"When a Hammerer gets going there's just no stopping him, and the longer the fight lasts the stronger and faster he becomes. Momentum builds as the Hammerer attacks, and as it accumulates he can strike stronger and stronger blows."

"The more he fights the more berserk he becomes, his attacks bombarding the enemy in a ceaseless onslaught. His frenzy makes the Choppa bold, opening up new possibilities for attack which would be far too dangerous or difficult to attempt otherwise."

"To that end, they use the various tools and tactics available to them to weaken their opponents’ strength and resolve via Interrogation before meting out final Judgment".

[Zoatibix]

I think sometimes we all get a bit too excited about stuff we'd like to see in WAR from the books or the TT.

I mean I really like the Assassin models. They're Dark Elf Ninja for pity's sake! But what are the problems with implementing them? We can chuck ideas about but it is Mythic that have the job of making them work. What one of us thinks might work (when we don't know the ins and outs of the game engine) may be very resource consuming from Mythic's PoV, for instance.

As others and myself have said, to some players a word can be very immotive. Assassins tend to conjure images of one shot kills from stealth. Witch to many people equals a wizened old crone that lives in a house with lot of cats...or a modern Wiccan dancing around in worship of the sun and moon.

For example, what is a troll?

A big creature that sounds as if it comes from the lower classes in 1950s England and turns into stone if hit by sunlight? (tolkein)

A huge armoured warrior that smashes aside dozens of warriors at a time? (Tolkein)

A spindly Jamacian who want's us to stay away from the voodoo? (TGWDTA)

Even Class names can mean different things in different games.

As to not being able to use all of your abilities at once...well I've found that fairly common. Not enough Energy/combopoints/wrong position/wrong weapon/lack of Material Components.

I was thinking of a core of mid range abilites but some special ones, some very cool ones towards the end of the spectrum.

But as others did with the Corsair...I'm just tossing out possibilites in the hope it sparks some interest :D

[roadkizzle]

Zoat, i'm glad you agree with me. All I've been trying to do is keep people from discarding possible classes just because they can't think outside of the box. That's why when I was at a block trying to think for witch elves, I kept on imploring other people to help me (which everyone just ignored).

You shouldn't just ignore assassins because in most games so far, it has been the one-shotting from stealth. That isn't all that they are. You shouldn't just forget about corsairs because they have no abilities in the TT game.

Edit: Oh, when I think of troll, I think more of the origins of it, more similar to the trolls in DAoC, because they were created to be most like the trolls of Norse Mythology. Where they actually originated. Much farther back than anything Tolkien could come up with. Well, that or the troll in the childrens story the Billy Goats Gruff

[Zoatibix]

And yet Dwarfs are almost always slightly comical ginger Scotsmen...is that the Dwarf Stubborness metagene quantum tunnelling through the multiverse to wherever dwarfs reside?

Werent' Norse Dwarfs nine foot tall? Just short compared to somebody else?:confused:

[roadkizzle]

Well, in Norse mythology, from what I remember, dwarfs and dark elves were actually pretty much the same thing. I think that dark elves were just the dwarfs who forged in the underground cities, and were black from all the soot.

Though, technically those are Svartalf's (Black elves).

Also, 4 dwarves support the 4 cardinal points of the world in Norse Mythology. I don't know anything about them being really tall though.

[Nathar]

Well, in Norse mythology, from what I remember, dwarfs and dark elves were actually pretty much the same thing. I think that dark elves were just the dwarfs who forged in the underground cities, and were black from all the soot.

Though, technically those are Svartalf's (Black elves).

Also, 4 dwarves support the 4 cardinal points of the world in Norse Mythology. I don't know anything about them being really tall though.

Norse mythology doesn't speak of any elves like that, to my knowledge!

Dwarfs, sure. But no elves.

[roadkizzle]

Yes, norse mythology does mention Svartalfs. It's just that it sometimes seems that the term is used synonymously with dwarfs.

[Nathar]

Yes, norse mythology does mention Svartalfs. It's just that it sometimes seems that the term is used synonymously with dwarfs.

And after rereading your post it's clear to me, that that's what you meant. the 'alfs' that are given are not like elves alot. There's a danish (don't know about norwegian or sweden) fairy tale create, the alf, and has similarities, but it's NOT elves.

Elves as a mythological creature was a more regional thing I believe and not directly related to norse mythology.

[roadkizzle]

But, my point is that svartalf is a norse word, which means black (or dark) elf.

Elves in mythology have a WIDE variety of representations. In fact, the majority of elves in mythology are just miniscule fairies. Not the tall, thin creatures regularly associated with fantasy, and warhammer.

So, yes, a svartalf is a dark elf. Just like a ljosalfar is just the translation of light elf.

[roadkizzle]

Elves exist in mythology in virtually all of the european nations. I don't know how they all came up with the same, or even similar ideas. But, they are obviously there.

[Xurré]

Eilistraee, dark elf goddess of good-aligned drow in the Forgotten Realms, for a while (during second edition AD&D) lived in Svartalfheim (having been given refuge there by the Norse god of smiths, and Smith of the Gods: Wayland), the realm of the Svart Alfar.

Where she lives now is a bit of a mystery since, well, Ysgard and the Norse Powers don’t exist anymore in the current version of the Forgotten Realms (she’s probably back in Arvandor though).

Another fantasy fact you weren’t interested in, brought to you by Xurré. ;)


- Xurré

[Zoatibix]

OMG, dudes, Blizzard invented elvez!!!!11111 Dint u no that? lolwtfpwnrolfocoptor

[Xurré]

<thinks Zoatibix has been tasting a bit too much from the Witchbrew> ;)


- Xurré

[Zoatibix]

*cough* er...its quality control....yeah...quality control of witchbrew....:p

[Thoden Firehammer]

OMG, dudes, Blizzard invented elvez!!!!11111 Dint u no that? lolwtfpwnrolfocoptor


Uh ... aye?

In anycase no, the elves we know today did not directly or for that mater none of the fantasty races can be directly traced to any single european culture
At one point in time maybe, but now they have evolved into two very contrasting social orders and are the representation of the two extreme visions we have for a perfect society
personaly I prefer the Dwarf one better :P

Now if you want to say Norse myth has a form of Elves or faries, I might agree with you

[roadkizzle]

Oh, I wasn't trying to say that what we have now is exactly what norse mythology thought. In fact, in that, the dark elves/dwarfs were benevolent mostly, just cunning, and mischevious.

It wasnt' until the more english interpretation of elves, and dark elves that they really actually became truly malevolent.

[Psycojester]

Out of curiosity how would people feel about a misdirection assassin instead of a stealth assassin?

Think about how the assassin work in TT, you attack a regiment of Dark Elves and then BAMF! A Dark Elf ninja pops out.

How about giving Assassins the ability to target an ally and then use an ability to assume their name & appearance for X amount of time or until attacked/attacks. Give the Assassin a bunch of abilities relating to either first strikes when breaking disguise or reflex attacks when attacked in CC by another class. Combine that with Assassin Ninja moves and poisons and you'd have a relatively unique DPS class.

[roadkizzle]

The only problem with that, is that mythic has stated that they want characters to have a unique silhouette. And, if assassins look like other classes. Then that flies in the face of their objective.

[Zoatibix]

I think what Psychojester is suggesting is that the Assassin would copy the looks of the target class until they start attacking or are attacked - at that point *poof* their silouhette changes to that of a recognisable assassin.

This is the way I have imagined Assassins to work.

Of course, I wonder how you would pull this trick on people except in very large and confusing battles - wouldn't they recognise your name tag?

[Nathar]

I think what Psychojester is suggesting is that the Assassin would copy the looks of the target class until they start attacking or are attacked - at that point *poof* their silouhette changes to that of a recognisable assassin.


The point of the silhouette isn't that you can see how he looks from miles away when he's in your face. The point is that you can see how he looks from miles away, when he's miles away so you can decide to fight them or not! That goes out the window if he can just change his silhouette.

[Psycojester]

Of course, I wonder how you would pull this trick on people except in very large and confusing battles - wouldn't they recognise your name tag?

It shouldn't be to difficult to have the ability allow you to assume the other players name. Although with that you'd have to make the ability require the targets consent outside of instanced areas. If there server doesn't allow for identical player names ingame just have it identify you as:

ASSUMED IDENTITY (visible to all) Actual Char name (visibile to friendlies)


The point of the silhouette isn't that you can see how he looks from miles away when he's in your face. The point is that you can see how he looks from miles away, when he's miles away so you can decide to fight them or not! That goes out the window if he can just change his silhouette.

How about when the Assassin uses the ability it creates a dark cloud around his and his target, that would allow for the silhouette change and alert the enemy of what their facing without robbing it of usefulness.

[Zoatibix]

Nathar, are you saying that you don't like the idea of suddenly finding yourself in melee with an assassin that you thought was eg a Sorcerer?

@ Psychojester: I like the basic idea, I'm just worried that there will be so many assassins they would have nobody to copy :D

[Nathar]

Nathar, are you saying that you don't like the idea of suddenly finding yourself in melee with an assassin that you thought was eg a Sorcerer?


No, I'm saying Mythic don't like that idea. In fact, that's what Mythic says themselves;)

[Zoatibix]

No, Mythic have said they don't like people appearing from no where...its a slightly different thing.

You would be able to see the other player coming in this case, it is just that they would not be what you were expecting.

[roadkizzle]

Yes, you would see someone coming at you, and not know what they are. Mythic has said from the very beginning of their involvement of the game, that you should be able to know EXACTLY what's coming up to you, from as far out as the clip range. That's what all this talk about silhouettes are about.

I'm very surprised that this suggestion is not getting more opposition, because when I proposed these possibilities last summer, everyone was in arms against it. Due to it's conflict with the angle mythic was trying to take with this game.

[Thrakkesh]

I know it sounds silly, but there are going to be people out there with shadows disabled for performance. They probably wouldn't impliment a 'giveaway' being a shadow for that reason.

[Nathar]

No, Mythic have said they don't like people appearing from no where...its a slightly different thing.

You would be able to see the other player coming in this case, it is just that they would not be what you were expecting.

That's a completely different matter. Roadkizzle has described what I was talking about.

[Xurré]

I'm very surprised that this suggestion is not getting more opposition, because when I proposed these possibilities last summer, everyone was in arms against it. Due to it's conflict with the angle mythic was trying to take with this game.
That's probably because people realize that no matter what suggestion is made for assassins they're not likely to be included.

After all, Witch Elves are included instead. ;)


- Xurré

[roadkizzle]

I think that it's actually because, most people posting on the forums nowadays, just recently joined the wait for the game, and so haven't experienced most of waht mythic has said that they want for the game.

Therefore, they will argue for things that mythic has specifically said that they don't want.

[Hyper one]

I think that it's actually because, most people posting on the forums nowadays, just recently joined the wait for the game, and so haven't experienced most of waht mythic has said that they want for the game.

Therefore, they will argue for things that mythic has specifically said that they don't want.

I soooooo badly want to toss in a corsair joke to this statement.

[roadkizzle]

Go ahead. I'm sure I'll get a laugh out of it.