Why Don't Intelligence and Willpower Work Properly?

[Suicide Boy]

Am I missing something? I kind of expect my abilities to do what they say they're going to do on my character sheet.

Intelligence and Willpower both say they give "+100 DPS" or whatever the amount is for your current skill value. However, this is total bollocks on DoTs and HoTs, and even on single-cast spells.

Okay, so +100 DPS on DoTs and HoTs would be overpowered? Then why the heck do they call it +100 DPS, if it's not actually damage per second? It should be +100 damage, period.

Yet not only does it fail to actually add damage per second, rarely does it even add the full FACE VALUE of the damage it claims to the spell total!

Has anyone figured this out yet? Because where I'm sitting, it's completely retarded.

[Erydan]

What happens is that the coefficient on DoTs and HoTs is not based on the total duration of the spell, but rather on the casting time.

It SHOULD be multiplied by the TOTAL duration of the spell, then divided equally by the amount of ticks. Instead, all HoT's and DoTs (theyre almost all instant) are taking your int/wp value, multiply it by 1.5 (lol) then spread that amount over the total amount of ticks.

Conclusion? Stack toughness and wounds, int/wp is not worth it in its current form.

[Suicide Boy]

Instead, all HoT's and DoTs (theyre almost all instant) are taking your int/wp value, multiply it by 1.5 (lol) then spread that amount over the total amount of ticks.

Conclusion? Stack toughness and wounds, int/wp is not worth it in its current form.

Hah, that's even more retarded than I would have expected.

+100 * 1.5 = +150

+150 / 15 seconds = +10 per second

My Magus has something like 575 Intelligence, which includes a tactic, gear tending towards it, Renown training... and it gives +10 damage per tick to my DoTs, and nearly equally complete crap to my non-DoTs? You'd think if it says +100 DPS, and a spell takes three SECONDS to cast, you'd get +300 DPS to the spell.

And the same applies to almost everyone else, including the effects of Willpower?

That is fantastic. Someone signed off on this? Did they completely forget what DPS actually means, and just copy it from WoW (the first MMORPG to offer a convenient DPS tally AFAIK, doing the work for you) without thinking? +100 DPS =/= +10 DPS.

[EZero]

and this is why I will never go down the changing tree.

I either go havoc (2-3 sec cast spells that actually takes advantage of your int/dps) or daemonology to suicide aoe pull and hope some sorcs aoe.

[Suicide Boy]

and this is why I will never go down the changing tree.

Me neither. Daemonology comes first, Havoc a distant second (I'll spec into it a bit when I get closer to Rank 40).

[logoth]

you sir are incorrect.

+100dps intelect, means that you will do 100dps more using damaging abilities constant.

in example of bright wizard,it means you cast dots and nukes between, unless you expect exery dot get 100dps, cast 4dots for 400dps and nuke between for 100extra, and result in 500dps increase.

that would only be sensible if you only had 1spell with cooldown. belive me, dots hould scale with cast time.

[Suicide Boy]

you sir are incorrect.

+100dps intelect, means that you will do 100dps more using damaging abilities constant.

in example of bright wizard,it means you cast dots and nukes between, unless you expect exery dot get 100dps, cast 4dots for 400dps and nuke between for 100extra, and result in 500dps increase.

that would only be sensible if you only had 1spell with cooldown. belive me, dots hould scale with cast time.

I'll bet you my penis Magus DoTs and abilities don't get +100 DPS from the related level of Intelligence, constant or otherwise.

I will slice it off and mail it to you as a trophy if you can prove me wrong.

[Gisborne]

Am I missing something? I kind of expect my abilities to do what they say they're going to do on my character sheet.

Intelligence and Willpower both say they give "+100 DPS" or whatever the amount is for your current skill value. However, this is total bollocks on DoTs and HoTs, and even on single-cast spells.

Okay, so +100 DPS on DoTs and HoTs would be overpowered? Then why the heck do they call it +100 DPS, if it's not actually damage per second? It should be +100 damage, period.

Yet not only does it fail to actually add damage per second, rarely does it even add the full FACE VALUE of the damage it claims to the spell total!

Has anyone figured this out yet? Because where I'm sitting, it's completely retarded.

By your logic DD spells should get no benefit since their damage occurs instantly, regardless of cast time.

[Suicide Boy]

By your logic DD spells should get no benefit since their damage occurs instantly, regardless of cast time.

That's a foolish statement. It might make sense if we could instantly cast spell after spell, in rapid succession, but all abilities are on a global cooldown. Hence, it takes at LEAST one second to use any ability.

And whether the damage is dealt instantly or not, the time spent dealing it before it lands is time in which you're getting 0 DPS. When using a three-second cast spell, for example, you've just spent three seconds doing 0 DPS. Therefore, if the spell does 300 damage when finished, it's a 100 DPS spell at best.

So a three-second cast spell receives +99 damage if I have ~550 Intelligence. That's +33 DPS, not +99 DPS.

My point being that statistics need to make sense so that I know what they actually do. Since +100 DPS doesn't add +100 DPS to anything in Warhammer, it's a guessing game, and people have to sit down and do ludicrously complicated calculations to figure out what's going on.

A final DPS tally is supposed to simplify things, not make them stupid.

[logoth]

+100dps increases fireball damage by 300 for 3second cast
+100dps increases ignite damage by 150 for 1.5 second cooldown, and 9second duration, if i only cast ignite, i get 16dps. odd? no, becouse if i keep ignite on 6targets, i will get 100dps promised.

now to magus part:
didnt play, but heard magus is no working correctly, but i dont know how much or why coefficents differ from dps*casttime.

[Calgetorix]

+100dps increases fireball damage by 300 for 3second cast
+100dps increases ignite damage by 150 for 1.5 second cooldown, and 9second duration, if i only cast ignite, i get 16dps. odd? no, becouse if i keep ignite on 6targets, i will get 100dps promised.
So you have to use 1.5*6 = 9 seconds in order to get 100 dps. So you have to keep igniting 6 targets in order to keep up the 100 dps (of course not thinking about the AP cost) while other non-instant spells do the promised dps on a single target. Sure sounds fair.

I can see the logic behind only adding 1.5 times the dps on DoTs/HoTs but it gives a too weak effect in my opinion. On the other hand, adding the promised dps to DoTs/HoTs would be too powerful.
The way things are right now, though, willpower and intelligence are pointless stats. Either give them a bigger effect or let them grant some side effects, for instance slightly lower casting times on normal spells.

[Jandau]

The biggest problem with Magus DoTs are that they take too long, thereby watering down the damage to a pittance. If they replaced the 15 sec duration on Magus DoTs with 8 seconds, Changing DPS would practically double.

If they were to apply the DPS bonus from Int to every second of the DoT, then it would go waaaaay overboard. On the other hand, making it dependant on casting time makes DoTs and HoTs scale terribly.

DoTs and HoTs should scale better than they do now simply because they are less burst. The idea that the Int/Will bonus is applied depending on the casting time isn't flawed, but the bonus should be doubled or tripled, so for an instant cast DoT with +100DPS it would be an additional 300 damage spread over the ticks.

[Dementum]

You really want DoT's to be more powerful then they already are (expect Magus those guys need some love in they're dot damage, figures for a DoT class)?

I am pretty sure you will see more whining to come, if anything like this happens :P.

[Nethlem]

You really want DoT's to be more powerful then they already are (expect Magus those guys need some love in they're dot damage, figures for a DoT class)?

I am pretty sure you will see more whining to come, if anything like this happens :P.

Heh but imagine what would happen on this forum if there is a line like:

- DoT coefficients have been changed, DoTs now scale better with Int

in the patchnotes, hahaha i wish mythic would do it just to see the reaction on this forum :D

[Milkshakes]

Heh but imagine what would happen on this forum if there is a line like:

- DoT coefficients have been changed, DoTs now scale better with Int

in the patchnotes, hahaha i wish mythic would do it just to see the reaction on this forum :D

BWs would be even more imbalanced.. ><

Sad day it will be.

Maybe giving Magus tactics that lower the DoT duration to increase damage would be more suitable to increase DPS for the Magus.

[Suicide Boy]

Look, balance issues aside, I just want to know what the statistics on my character sheet actually do. Someone mentioned that if you cast a DoT on six people, then you'll end up getting your promised +100 DPS? What about a single target? Do you have to cast every available DoT on them and use Daemonic Maw repeatedly (for example, and I don't think that would give you +100 DPS overall)?

Is it +100 DPS against a single target with all of my spells? Is it +100 DPS against multiple targets if I cast a lot of DoTs on a lot of people? What is it?

[Varking]

Willpower works correctly as far I could tell. I just tested my Blessing of Valaya which is an AoE Heal that takes three seconds to cast.

My tooltip says it does a base of 515 healing to each person but I have +147.2 DPS worth of willpower to add to my healing.

It came out to typically around 950-975 on most of heals with this.

Base Healing + ( ~Insert + To Healing From Willpower Here~ X Insert Cast Time Here ) = Healing Done By X Spell.

Blessing of Valaya Calculation ( which was correct )

515 + ( 147.2 x 3 )
515 + 441.6
~956 healing to each target with my three second cast AoE heal.

[Suicide Boy]

Well, that's good to know.

At least I can be sure my Shaman's stacked Willpower won't be going to waste.

Somehow, though, it seems to me that +DPS is a poor yardstick to use for measuring additional healing and damage in WAR. A percentage gain would make more sense (as far as being easier to measure the effects of), and many other statistics also increase their effectiveness via percentage as you go up in levels: Armor soak, resistance soaks, disrupts, crits, etc.

But percentages wouldn't scale well with longer casting times, either, unless you applied it cumulatively for each second of casting time or something, i.e., +25% damage becomes +75% damage on a spell that takes 3 seconds to cast.

[Stantz]

I think the magus is strong as is. Its listed as dps , yeah, but I really dont think its meant to top a damage chart, it has some of the best crowd control in the ing game. A magus and a sorc can destroy entire teams.

Actually, I think an engineer and a BW could do it to, but who plays engineers?
Thanks for the info tho
Ive got 600 int right now, im going back and respeccing for wounds and toughness = D

[azsh]

Err, I think before everyone races off and starts tossing out gear, it needs to be proved that the problem isn't just with Magus...

We had an earlier poster claiming that his BW is working as advertised with Int. Is it possible that Magus is just broken to not use int correctly, or that the coefficients for the class are off?

I don't honestly know but the only concrete thing I've seen so far is the willpower calc for healing. It would seem stripping your magus naked and dmg'ing some lowbie toons, then putting on your int talent and repeating the test would give you a fair indication of how much extra dmg you are achieving.

[Nary]

You really want DoT's to be more powerful then they already are (expect Magus those guys need some love in they're dot damage, figures for a DoT class)?

I am pretty sure you will see more whining to come, if anything like this happens :P.

You could do it easily. Just make different classes scale differently. Allow Magus (or Zealot :D )DoT's to scale at a better rate than Sorcs/BWs. Our base numbers are much lower than theirs, and we lack a lot of the flat modifiers to damage that they get anyways. So it's unlikely that our DoT's would ever scale anywhere near theirs.

I mean, you have to be realistic. In my full +int gear I see about 5-8 more damage per tick on a DoT. Similar numbers with WP and my HoTs. That's terrible scaling, and basically makes our classes obsolete as the game goes forward and peoples gear increases.

Simply put, it's almost pointless to stack Int/WP if you are a DoT class, and that's just wrong.

[azsh]

You could do it easily. Just make different classes scale differently. Allow Magus (or Zealot :D )DoT's to scale at a better rate than Sorcs/BWs. Our base numbers are much lower than theirs, and we lack a lot of the flat modifiers to damage that they get anyways. So it's unlikely that our DoT's would ever scale anywhere near theirs.

I mean, you have to be realistic. In my full +int gear I see about 5-8 more damage per tick on a DoT. Similar numbers with WP and my HoTs. That's terrible scaling, and basically makes our classes obsolete as the game goes forward and peoples gear increases.

Simply put, it's almost pointless to stack Int/WP if you are a DoT class, and that's just wrong.

The problem is that there is no definitive proof that the current state is working as intended rather than a broken system.

eg. The archmage is a predominately DOT based dmg dealer(although the class is primarily a healer). No one uses radiant lance and the only other direct attack I've seen is an instant cast, drain magic. Is there a scaling issue for AM's or do their DOTs scale well with +int?

As I said, someone needs to go out and get definitive proof that +int is not giving the same benefit to all classes. Test sans int gear vs int gear, compare the amount of +dps that you are getting from your int gear and work out dmg increase per int.

eg. Archmage.

Test Radiant Lance vs Radiant Gaze (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9237).

Assuming lvl 40, +100 dps contribution from Int

Lance does 299 dmg for 2 seconds channeling (149 DPS). Total dmg should = 499 dmg (299+2x100dps) assuming that +dps is relative to cast time (249 DPS).

Radiant Gaze does 651 dmg over 9 seconds (72 DPS), but is instant cast. If +DPS is related to cast time, you'll get ~751 dmg over 9 seconds (83 DPS). If +DPS is related to DOT time, you'll get 1651 (+900) over 9 seconds (183 DPS).

This should be extremely easy to prove out for anyone with a bit of time to kill.

Setup:

Get naked. Everything off. No buffs or tactics. Record base int/paperdoll dps.
Get dressed. No buffs or tactics. Record int/paperdoll dps.

This will give you your total +int and +dps.

Then... (there are a couple of log reader mods to make this easy)

Naked again, go find a lowbie mob that can withstand a bit of dmg, so you won't one shot it or it'll die half way through the DOT.
Do not use any debuffs that increase dmg. Turn off all tactics.
Use a direct dmg ability 10 times. Record your dmg for each hit.
Use a dot 10 times, record your total dmg.

Now, toss on all your gear, but do not turn on tactics or buffs.
Repeat DD 10x
Repeat DOT 10x

You now have a small sample of damages that you can average. It's not that statistically accurate but it gives us enough to get an impression.

Compare dmg of your direct damage spell with int to without. The difference should equal your +dps / cast time.

Compare the dmg of a single tick of your DOT with int to without.

eg. Radiant Gaze@40@base ticks once every 3 seconds for 217 dmg. If each tick = 517 dmg, you are getting a straight +100 dps.
__________________________________________________ ___

As a slight aside...

There is no accounting for the nature of DOT's.

The GCD is 1.4 seconds.

So, assuming no lag (lol) or spell cooldown, it takes 7 seconds to DOT 5 people (Law of Conductivity is a good example, no CD).
In the same time, you can cast Radiant Lance twice (2+1.4+2+1.4=6.8 seconds)

Your DOTs give you a grand total of 165 over 15 x 5 = 825 dmg.
Your DD give you a grand total of 598 dmg.

If it is true that instant cast gives +100 dmg over the duration of the DOT, the picture looks like this.

DOT's = (165x5) + (100x5) over 15 seconds = 1325 dmg
DD = 598+ (2 secs x 100dps x 2 spells) = 998 dmg

Lastly, 5x LoC = 150 ap. 2x RL = 60 ap

LoC=8.8 dmg per AP
RL =16.6 dmg per AP

Given the nature of DOT's (they don't tie you down, can't be LOS'd but can be dispelled) this is not unreasonable.

If you were to make DOT's increase by a literal 100 damage per second, the final ratio would look like this...

LoC dmg to 5 people = 165x5 + 1500x5 = 8325

LoC=55.5 dmg per AP
RL=16.6 dmg per AP
Doesn't that number shift seem a little broken to you for an instant cast DOT spell that requires no channeling or afterthought? You are getting 6.3x more dmg per action point.

[Slice]

It's a typo. It should be add X damage. Each spell has a fixed coefficient, which is multiplied by the amount of damage and added to the tooltip damage/healing of an ability, before any percentage-based bonuses.

60 HPS from willpower means +180 healing for Elixir of Dark Blessings, which has a coefficient of 3.

Yes, INT/WP don't give the exact same bonuses to all classes. My Tzeentch's Cry might get a lesser bonus than a Magus' SVF (both instant, med-damage spells)

[azsh]

Yeah, that's the point I'm getting to, just because you have +x from int doesn't mean every spell will give you exactly that amount, and given the fire and forget nature of DOT's, they will get a much slimmer coefficient.

DOT base classes are typically hurt by the lack of burst and having their effects dispelled. Where they power is attrition, you can DOT a lot more than one person and the whole lot keeps on ticking, forcing healers to take care of themselves or try to group heal etc.

Again, I'm not sure the +int is working fine, but it should be easy to test.

[Slice]

Look, balance issues aside, I just want to know what the statistics on my character sheet actually do. Someone mentioned that if you cast a DoT on six people, then you'll end up getting your promised +100 DPS? What about a single target? Do you have to cast every available DoT on them and use Daemonic Maw repeatedly (for example, and I don't think that would give you +100 DPS overall)?

Is it +100 DPS against a single target with all of my spells? Is it +100 DPS against multiple targets if I cast a lot of DoTs on a lot of people? What is it?
Make a thread about coefficients, like this one (http://warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128036).

[Stormblazer]

Heh but imagine what would happen on this forum if there is a line like:

- DoT coefficients have been changed, DoTs now scale better with Int

in the patchnotes, hahaha i wish mythic would do it just to see the reaction on this forum :D
Heheheh... Looks like Mythic granted your wish with 1.05.