What happened to my squig herder?

[blueytheb]

So, the first class I looked at when reading the information on this game was squig herder.

From the official description:


Squig Herders
One-on-one a Squig is no match for the likes of a Hammerer or Ironbreaker, but the problem there isn’t the match, it’s the numbers. The toothy embrace of a pack of Squigs has brought down many a hearty warrior, and a Squig pack is never more effective than in the hands of an expert Herder. Using tools ranging from pipes to goads to bits of giblets, the Squig Herder drives his minions to a killing frenzy while fighting safely behind the lines. The Herder’s own ranged fire combines with the attacks of his minions to challenge any foe.
Squig Herder Specialty
It’s all about the Squigs – at least as far as the Squig Herder is concerned – and he knows all there is to know about these feisty critters. Commanding a pack of Squigs culled from those types he has learned to train, the Squig Herder can inflict serious damage on his enemies. With experience, he can learn to tame a broad range of breeds, control more powerful Squigs, and acquire more specialized abilities such as taking direct control of his Squig. His minions will even fight on after his death, wandering off only when the battle is done.
Playing as a Squig Herder
As a Squig Herder you lead from the rear, turning your Squigs loose on the enemy and supporting them with commands, arrows and bait while safely out of harm’s way. The most critical elements of your strategy revolve around your choice of Squigs for your pack, and the abilities you use to support them. Your various breeds offer you tools for different situations, and you must mix and match them to meet your needs. Tactically speaking, your job is to kill the enemy while avoiding his counter-attacks – both you and your Squigs are deadly but fragile beasts.


Pack of Squigs! Minions! Critical strategy is picking which quigs you put in your pack?!

Awesome, sign me up!!!!!1111!!!one1!!

But it seems, you don't get a pack of squigs.

You get one. One squig at a time. No pack. No herd. One

This was confirmed by Josh Mythic - one squig.

Sure, you can have different types to summon. But you only choose 1 at a time. What "critical elements of your strategy revolve around your choice of Squigs for your pack" is there when you only have 1 squig at a time.

Then you look at the abilities listed so far. I've not seen anything that was other than WoW Hunter. Look:


Squig Herder ------------------------------------------------------>WoW Hunter
Shoot -------------------------------------------------------------->Autoshoot
A basic ranged attack.

Poisoned Arrer ---------------------------------------------------->Serpent Sting
inflicts additional damage over time for 5 seconds.

Paralyzing Arrer --------------------------------------------------->Concussive Shot
roots the target for 5 seconds.

Triple Shot ---------------------------------------------------------->Multi Shot
can inflict damage up to three times.

Horned Squig (Summon) -------------------------------------------> Cat/Raptor
not very robust, but high damage.

Spiked Squig ---------------------------------------------------------> Cobra/Wind Serpent
This squig prefers to attack your enemies
by shooting his spikes at them.

Biting ------------------------------------------------------------------> Bite
Order your squig to bite

Yes, it is now the Goblin Hunter.


I still look forward to this game. I think the cool things being done with collision detection will be awesome. I love what I've seen so far from the melee classes. The knockdowns/pushbacks look cool, actually being able to protect your squishies sounds awesome! The healers having to get in there and fight to be most effective is certainly innovative, in my opinion.

But it seems somewhere, the original design for the squig herder, the crazy, out of control pack of squigs that you had to work to keep some semblence of focus for, barely managed by an overwhelmed herder, got lost. And mythic decided instead to give us a Goblin Hunter.

Please, please, mythic. Reconsider! Please give us our squig herders and not this Goblin Hunter they've become!

Pretty please!?

[Juggernaught]

In b4 close due to wow vs war.

also. No traps, so its a bad kind of hunter lol.



================================


I dont ever really remember squig herders even using bows and arrows, from memory it was Spears + nets ect.

[Sturmer]

No.
Paul has said, that they dont want pet class that just idles and pet does all the work.

[Kydrin]

I think the difficulty with multiple pets is that in pretty much every game I've played, the multiple pet class ends up playing a tank-like role even if they weren't intended to. Even if the pets go down easily, the idea was to create a distracting meat-shield.

Still though, I agree that the class loses a lot of its awesome with only one pet at a time. When I hear Squig Herder, I think a class that largely hinders and keeps its prey in place while lots of little sharp teeth take them down. One little squig hardly seems menacing and ends up taking the back seat to the character's own power (but if you really wanted that, isn't that what other ranged classes are for?)

No.
Paul has said, that they dont want pet class that just idles and pet does all the work.

That's a rather sad stance to take, first time I've been disappointed in Paul. Someone needs to sit him down in front of City of Villains with a decently leveled mastermind. That's hardly a simple class to play, and the pets hardly do all the work. Mastermind players frequently have some of the most complicated keybindings of any CoH/V player.

[Deathsbest]

No multiplier pets would be bad because of the whole they still live after the squig herders dead. Imagine 4 or 5 squigs running around would be a huge pain. No imagine 10 squig herders with 40 pets would cause havoc.

[jackal912]

No.
Paul has said, that they dont want pet class that just idles and pet does all the work.

Wait, i'm not getting this - since when does more pets = less work for the hunter? More pets implies that the individual pets are weaker, and you have to work harder to keep them alive and effective.


Also, for the guy saying the stick-around-after-death thing, they wouldn't be very effective without the actual squig herder to.. herd them.

[Jandau]

Yeah, the 1 squig thing turned me off as well. I used to be queued up to be a squig herder, but now it's just not worth it. The character looks a bit bland and it's supposed to be offset by the horde of squigs around him, but now it's just a plain looking goblin. I'm going choppa...

I dont ever really remember squig herders even using bows and arrows, from memory it was Spears + nets ect.

1. They are stated to be using bows
2. They are using bows in the screenshots
3. A ton of their skills are named XYZ Arrer, which would indicate a bow for whooting the said arrers....

[WMK01]

Well, I look at it like this:

I believe it's going to be a quick-switch system for your pack of squigs, not like WoW hunter where you only had one pet at a time and had to run over to the stables to switch out for another. Hardly a sound, tactical way to trade pets, especially in the middle of battle. I'll bet that the squig herder will be able to switch his squigs out at a moments notice, maybe call back the one that's out with some squig food, or the like, and then summon another one by throwing a piece of squig bait out on the spot you want him to spawn in on. Will probably be a short timed ability to trade one squig for another I'm guessing.

It'll be almost like having a whole heard out at once, only this way, it'll be up to the player to decide when and where each certain squig is most useful. At least, that's what I think anyway.

[Roughmuffin]

No.
Paul has said, that they dont want pet class that just idles and pet does all the work.

Right which is why they said you'd be able to manage your squigs and do interesting things with them--not just sit back. You'd be orchestrating your squigs.

But regardless, what is this 'sitting back'? Are you sitting back any less, as a mage, when you chuck your fireballs into the fray while someone else tanks? In order to avoid the syndromes of boredom, it's incumbent upon *they* the game designers, to actually put forth that minimum effort and come up with something for you to do other than watch your squigs eat something!

Don't ad hominem this by asking me what I'd design. I know what I'd design, and it's not close to this--I think this is too much like WoW already and I think WoW is too much like torture. Regardless of *me*, *they* are supposed to be professionals. They are professionals in a creative industry working on a triple A title. You're telling me they can't find a way to make 3 squigs work!?!?!!?!?!?

At the *VERY* least, they could use the technique of 'monster swarm' from the TT, where there are 5 squigs that are, basically, the same entity, and, as you damage it, squigs die, decreasing the entities collective power. Then you'd, at least, preserve the notion of customizing the squig 'loadout' of squig types, and the superficial notion that the squig herder actually has a herd of squigs...

I'm disappointed too. I think it's a cop out, and I agree with the assessment. You can shut down WHO v WOW threads all you want--there wouldn't be any of they actually made their own game instead of copying all the broad strokes verbatim. Seriously, if they handled this like Mordheim, where we had a customized witch hunter's party or chaos band of 3-5 characters to control, in instanced combat scenarios, we wouldn't be having these 'it's too much like wow' conversations. They could take a page right out of Inquisitor and create an awesome MMO based on a central character and their semi-disposable henchmen. Instead, it's WoW with some guy repeatedly shouting 'it's not wow! It's fun you ****ers!' He can shout anything he wants, if they keep making these types of changes, the only difference is going to be the size of the battlegrounds and pvp xp.

[Imamu]

well, they are called squig herders.


multiple squigs wouldn't be a bad idea.

I say they should be very fragile, nothing over 100 hp. there should be different types of squigs, up to 4 at a time. and they all share the same CD timer.

just my opinion.

[Bonegrit]

a bit disappointing, but then again, multiple pets would be hard to manage.

If not hard to manage, then tedious at least

[Gobby]

Well, I look at it like this:

I believe it's going to be a quick-switch system for your pack of squigs, not like WoW hunter where you only had one pet at a time and had to run over to the stables to switch out for another. Hardly a sound, tactical way to trade pets, especially in the middle of battle. I'll bet that the squig herder will be able to switch his squigs out at a moments notice, maybe call back the one that's out with some squig food, or the like, and then summon another one by throwing a piece of squig bait out on the spot you want him to spawn in on. Will probably be a short timed ability to trade one squig for another I'm guessing.

It'll be almost like having a whole heard out at once, only this way, it'll be up to the player to decide when and where each certain squig is most useful. At least, that's what I think anyway.


I agree with this post. A Squig Herder should only have one pet out at a time, but he can interchange them IN COMBAT with other pets for certain situations, creating more of a strategic way of playing then just have 4 pets and sending them all out to randomly attack.

[Burrix]

Funny to read this.

I too looked at the description of the Squiq Herder and thought, KEWL! I wanne be that little green guy with a pack of meet doing my bidding!!

Since I've read it's only one squig out at a time I was kinda disappointed, now I'm not sure what I'm going to play. DE Beastlord? ;)

[Jandau]

They are professionals in a creative industry working on a triple A title. You're telling me they can't find a way to make 3 squigs work!?!?!!?!?!?

Well, they couldn't make female chosen work... ;)

Sorry, couldn't resist, ignore this post

[blueytheb]

Well, I look at it like this:

I believe it's going to be a quick-switch system for your pack of squigs, not like WoW hunter where you only had one pet at a time and had to run over to the stables to switch out for another. Hardly a sound, tactical way to trade pets, especially in the middle of battle. I'll bet that the squig herder will be able to switch his squigs out at a moments notice, maybe call back the one that's out with some squig food, or the like, and then summon another one by throwing a piece of squig bait out on the spot you want him to spawn in on. Will probably be a short timed ability to trade one squig for another I'm guessing.

It'll be almost like having a whole heard out at once, only this way, it'll be up to the player to decide when and where each certain squig is most useful. At least, that's what I think anyway.


To me, this would take all the strategy out, not put any in. Ok, see enemy at range. Ranged squig, throw spikes! Ok, they're closing... switch to debuff squig. debuff squig... debuff! ok, they're here, on me now. switch to melee squig. melee squig, bite.

You sacrifice nothing. In fact, if you want overpowered, this system essentially gives you a pet with ranged attacks, debuffs, aoe, and melee - all what you need when you need it. It would be this that is overpowered, IMO.

Now, choosing a debuffer squig in a non-switchable pack would be a choice - you are sacrificing another damage dealer or another ranged squig. But insta switch? No strategy - just wait 2 hours after release, and the "correct" squig switching order will be posted. It will be optimized, it will be powerful, and it will be done the same way by everyone because it's the best you can have, and you never trade anything off to get any part of it.

[Ralzar]

That's a rather sad stance to take, first time I've been disappointed in Paul. Someone needs to sit him down in front of City of Villains with a decently leveled mastermind. That's hardly a simple class to play, and the pets hardly do all the work. Mastermind players frequently have some of the most complicated keybindings of any CoH/V player.

Yeah, high-level Masterminds could do some crazy complicated things with their minions. I never got into Mastermind play because of all the crazy key-binding I needed to really reach the full potential of the class. Also I'm a hands-on kinda guy. I like to feel the enemies teeth against my knuckles ;)

SMASH!

[Cailth]

At the *VERY* least, they could use the technique of 'monster swarm' from the TT, where there are 5 squigs that are, basically, the same entity, and, as you damage it, squigs die, decreasing the entities collective power. Then you'd, at least, preserve the notion of customizing the squig 'loadout' of squig types, and the superficial notion that the squig herder actually has a herd of squigs...

Very good idea, honestly I think they should implement it that way 100%.

For those of you that have played dawn of war (yeah its 40K not fantasy but oh well), everything came in squads that acted as one unit, and you could reinforce the squads and then upgrade them with different heavy weapons to make them effective vs different stuff, but again, they were 1 entity and took dmg/died one by one, would be nice to see the same thing done with squig packs, i.e. start with squig A, you can add a few more squig A's or have a squig A, B, C, D, or 2 squig A's and 2 squig B's, etc etc.

[Azyrn]

I think it would be unique to see multiple squigs out at the same time something akin to the Midgard Bonedancer. However, i don't care either way since i know Mythic will make the class a ton of fun.

[illukar]

Although sure to be a more fun class with a pack, I'd bet having multiple squigs per herder would have a big impact on performance in larger battles. Also really hard to manage before it teeters into an overpowered class which is almost impossible to go one-on-one with.

[Orochimaru]

Such a disappointing decision. Masterminds were a fun and unique part of CoV and I was hoping that Mythic would be able to expand upon it, improving both the functionality and the fun of the class. Goblin + Pack of squigs + GW style humor would have = win. Oh well. Ces't la Vie, another cool thing falls by the wayside.

[Arioch]

I agree with this post. A Squig Herder should only have one pet out at a time, but he can interchange them IN COMBAT with other pets for certain situations, creating more of a strategic way of playing then just have 4 pets and sending them all out to randomly attack.

How often did you see a Hunter character hanging around in the middle of battle to re-summon a pet? In low number pvp you couldn't....in large groups you'd run to the back somewhere safe and summon.
If it's an instant cast it would be viable to switch pets in battle, but from the videos I've seen it is not instant which sort of makes the whole herd thing pretty pointless.

Very disappointed with the change..........

[Axxar]

I personally would also have liked to see a small pack of squigs rather than a single squig out at once. Imagine the chaos and mayhem!

[Burrix]

I personally would also have liked to see a small pack of squigs rather than a single squig out at once. Imagine the chaos and mayhem!

Yeah! And it will make them (the squid herders) functional in terms of group functionality.

Imagine a pack of squigs defending a support class type, blocking the way of anyone trying to melee attack your support guy. They'll first have to kill the squigs before they can reach him. Good stuff :D

Or a pack of squigs running into a group of enemies ready to explode when they reach their target!

And... and...

Of course each individual squiq would have to be squigy to balance things out. ;)

[Lorhaf]

Mythic has made a class which can control multiple pets. Bonedancer. But there is one but. Bonedancers were one of the most overpowered classes in DAoC (Lel, I have BD main myself :D) But I can see Squig Herder in game with 3 to 4 pets sametime. Can't see it as a big problem and I can't see them overpowered neither. Bonedancers had healing pets which made them quite overpowered. But Squig Herder has just damaging pets which doesn't make them so powerful, imo.

Yo. :O

[Grimfell Gromgear]

Personally I would've liked to have seen multiple squigs as well. Perhaps even a system by which you have to set up your squigs by a resource meter. Say.... loyalty.

So let's say a squig herder at level 10 has 2 loyalty. A level 40 might have 15.

You could make squigs that cost one loyalty, two loyalty, three loyalty etc. to control. That way more powerful squigs would be fielded in less sized groups, but you could swarm with weaker ones (maybe with a hard squig cap to, like no more than five at a time no matter what) And you would slowly introduce people into the class as they started getting more loyalty to field larger squig parties later. Yiou could even have abilities which require the use of excess loyatly, so if you field weaker groups and have say 10 loyalty to spare you might take advantage of the fact that you're in control of a much more manageable group (now that you're a tough herder), so you can use special commands that require having X amount of loyalty free.

Just a thought.

[Noli me Tangere]

Wait, i'm not getting this - since when does more pets = less work for the hunter? More pets implies that the individual pets are weaker, and you have to work harder to keep them alive and effective.


Also, for the guy saying the stick-around-after-death thing, they wouldn't be very effective without the actual squig herder to.. herd them.

Quite so, a Diablo Necromancer could have tons of skeletons and a golem out and not be able to sit back. They had pets for support, the pets served a purpose, but the Necromancer was still an actively played class. No sitting back.

[Germonicus]

Ya know what's REALLY funny? The fact that people are getting so pissed about squigs when we have so little info about what they can and can't do,as for changing choice of starting character.....well I'm gonna wait til things are a little more concrete before I decide to become a Chaos Chosen ;)

After thinking about it I think Paul may have played a hunter (or whatever names the pet owning classes are) in either Final Fantasy XI or Anarchy Online,I recall that in both those games the pet owning classes could select "hunt" and send their pets out to "farm" an area while they sat in the centre and waited for the pets bringing back whatever loot the killed mobs dropped.This does indeed sound like "sitting on your ".However PvP didn't play a massive part in either of these games so maybe it wasn't such a big deal as it could prove to be in WAR?

[silex]

I was a bit bummed when I found out about the "only-one-pet" thing as well.

They sounded like a Bonedancer with a bow instead of magic. Now seems like an Enchanter with a bow instead of magic. Not that that is bad, just seeing your only little army of cuddly squigs roll into battle is always cool.

At least Squig Herders can be eaten by one of their squigs and controlled from the inside. That's still cool.

[Garthilk]

Despite me really disliking the original post I'll go ahead and put this out there.

Right now the Squigs are pretty formidible pets. They're actually a threat IMO and worth their salt. If you've played the Herder to any extent you would know this. However, if the Herder were to have multiple of them, they'd be extremely overpowered. Amazingly overpowered. So in order to make them not overpowered they'd turn them into giant balls of cotton candy. The enemy would be able to cut through them like a wet papertowell.

Personally, I prefer a squig that sticks around and does an important role, rather than three useless squigs that are mere speed bumps.

Finally, unless you've played the game to any great extent, why would you go making calls for sweeping changes. Believe it or not, things are typically done for a reason, not a whim. that said, relax. Try things out as they are before making unreasonable requests.

[Burrix]

Try things out as they are before making unreasonable requests.

That's kinda hard when you're not in closed beta now isn't it?

Somehow I find YOUR post offensive. Maybe I misunderstand what you're saying here?

I thought this was a discussion board where people can voice their opinions and idea's about the game and also about the classes.
But it's labeled unreasonable now by someone with an administrator tag because we haven't played the class yet? You might as well make it a closed membership forum then?

[WMK01]

To me, this would take all the strategy out, not put any in. Ok, see enemy at range. Ranged squig, throw spikes! Ok, they're closing... switch to debuff squig. debuff squig... debuff! ok, they're here, on me now. switch to melee squig. melee squig, bite.

You sacrifice nothing. In fact, if you want overpowered, this system essentially gives you a pet with ranged attacks, debuffs, aoe, and melee - all what you need when you need it. It would be this that is overpowered, IMO.

Now, choosing a debuffer squig in a non-switchable pack would be a choice - you are sacrificing another damage dealer or another ranged squig. But insta switch? No strategy - just wait 2 hours after release, and the "correct" squig switching order will be posted. It will be optimized, it will be powerful, and it will be done the same way by everyone because it's the best you can have, and you never trade anything off to get any part of it.


First of all, and maybe I didn't make this clear, buy you'd still only be able to have a certain number of squig which you could call into battle, in your pack at any certain time, maybe four at the most, thereby forcing you to decide which to use. In other words, you'd still have to decide between that debuffer or the ranged DPS, for instance, leaving the other back at the squig pen in town. Also, how is it less strategic to have to choose which squig to use at a certain time during battle than to have your whole pack out at once, filling all the roles at one time?

Seems to me like having only one out at a time would mean you'd have to make quick, tactical decisions on which to use, whereas having the whole heard out would pretty much free you from any squig managing at all, beyond choosing targets. Anyway, it's all moot if the switch ability isn't instant, like someone further down said. If, indeed, you can only have one out at a time and will have to go to town, or somesuch, to switch, they've really messed up the class and may as well rename it to squig trainer or maybe squig sitter.

[Archangel-WHA]

Sorry, but this really isn't worth discussing. This was a decision made a long, long, long time ago. It's not something that's going to be swayed by a very late poll.

I bring you darkness