Swordmasters: Tank or Melee DPS

[Vikingkingq]

Given that Garthlik has tipped his hand, I have a question:

Will Swordmasters be a parry/dodge-based tank or the melee dps career?

[Dallyoop]

Sounds too much like a melee DPS to me... One would think that the tank career should have a sheild or some such protective gear...

[CNST_Casualty]

It would be neat to have an evasive tank. Would be a little tough on the healers since his health would likely drop like a stone when he did get hit.

Reminds me a the ninja class from FFXI, made really good tanks if you used them right.

[Tyrannar]

I really hope we'll get Swordmasters of Hoeth as melee dps... I'm going to roll either Swordmaster or Corsair, given they are in the game off course. Both of which I'd prefer as melee dps.

[Krulltak]

Offensive Melee, definatly. I'd expect a heavy tank to be usin' shields and Swordmasters never have used shields.

In other words, Mythic HQ will soon be torn apart by angry fans for not putting in White Lions.

[Nerothos]

Hehe, Krulltak has spoken. It will be so. o.O

I didn't really vote because it's too hard to tell at this point. EA Mythic is being vague (as usual :roll: ), but I wouldn't mind taking either role. Personally, I still prefer Tank (because you're actually valued in groups, plus I had loads of fun trying it in my previous MMOs), but I'll go either way.

Just as long as I get to wield my BFS (Big F-ing Sword! :P)

[Krulltak]

If you can consider an orc's "choppa" a sword, then your Swordmaster's sword is nothing but a toothpick.

A deadly toothpick at that, but still a toothpick.

[Vikingkingq]

If you can consider an orc's "choppa" a sword, then your Swordmaster's sword is nothing but a toothpick.

A deadly toothpick at that, but still a toothpick.

I would say that the choppa is an axord, an axe-sword. It's got a very wedge-like blade, like an axe, but it also has a point (sometimes) like a sword would.

[Krulltak]

Is axord even a real word or did you just make that up?

[Vikingkingq]

Is axord even a real word or did you just make that up?

I just invented it. And copywrited it. You now owe me five bucks.

[Karthalos]

Sounds too much like a melee DPS to me... One would think that the tank career should have a sheild or some such protective gear...

And that's precisely why I believe they'd make a very interesting tank class! Just about every tank character so far has heavy armour, shields, the works. But with a graceful, agile, and overall - extremely skilled Swordmaster, he can doge, parry and basically avoid damage rather than soak it up, all whilst keeping his enemy's attention. Plus, their stances could make an interesting class gimmick!

That, and the agile, quick type seems to 'fit' more with elves than the heavy armoured type. I mean, an elf doesn't seem to be the type of character who'd take a Bloodthirster's axe in the face and laugh (exaggeration, of course), they seem more likely to dodge it and counter-attack.

And with the White Lions, they could fit into the melee damage-dealer role just as easily as they could fit into the tank role, could they not? And judging from the miniatures, they don't seem more heavily armoured than the Swordmasters, they have the lion's pelt though, but that seems more like a badge of office rather than armour. Although I will agree that the Swordmasters can fit seamlessly into the melee damage-dealer as well.

Anyhoo, as you can see, I personally would like to see Swordmasters as a tank class. But I wouldn't be shocked an appalled at them being pushed to Melee damage-dealers either.

[AlltheMyriadWays]

And that's precisely why I believe they'd make a very interesting tank class! Just about every tank character so far has heavy armour, shields, the works. But with a graceful, agile, and overall - extremely skilled Swordmaster, he can doge, parry and basically avoid damage rather than soak it up, all whilst keeping his enemy's attention. Plus, their stances could make an interesting class gimmick!.

The main problem is evasion tanks are tough to balance, given their all-or-nothing nature. The Ninja from FF XI is a good example of this, and it wouldn't be good if the Swordmaster was too unreliable to function as well as the other Order tanks, or was like the Ninja and put everyone else out of business.

It does seem the most appropriate mechanic for the elves though. We'll see.

[Smachaz]

Probably DPS, Dragon Princes and there strong resistance to magic is probably the Tank.

[Vikingkingq]

And that's precisely why I believe they'd make a very interesting tank class! Just about every tank character so far has heavy armour, shields, the works. But with a graceful, agile, and overall - extremely skilled Swordmaster, he can doge, parry and basically avoid damage rather than soak it up, all whilst keeping his enemy's attention. Plus, their stances could make an interesting class gimmick!

That, and the agile, quick type seems to 'fit' more with elves than the heavy armoured type. I mean, an elf doesn't seem to be the type of character who'd take a Bloodthirster's axe in the face and laugh (exaggeration, of course), they seem more likely to dodge it and counter-attack.

And with the White Lions, they could fit into the melee damage-dealer role just as easily as they could fit into the tank role, could they not? And judging from the miniatures, they don't seem more heavily armoured than the Swordmasters, they have the lion's pelt though, but that seems more like a badge of office rather than armour. Although I will agree that the Swordmasters can fit seamlessly into the melee damage-dealer as well.

Anyhoo, as you can see, I personally would like to see Swordmasters as a tank class. But I wouldn't be shocked an appalled at them being pushed to Melee damage-dealers either.

I agree. Personally, given that all of the tanks so far have been sword and board capable - although not exclusively so - I think it would be a good idea that the Elf tank be somewhat different, to avoid repetition, either visual or gameplay-wise.

[CNST_Casualty]

The main problem is evasion tanks are tough to balance, given their all-or-nothing nature. The Ninja from FF XI is a good example of this, and it wouldn't be good if the Swordmaster was too unreliable to function as well as the other Order tanks, or was like the Ninja and put everyone else out of business.

It does seem the most appropriate mechanic for the elves though. We'll see.


I think they could balance it pretty well. I don't think the developers ever really thought that people were going to be ninja tanking in FFXI. It just happened.

I wouldn't mind seeing a similar style tank on the DE side. It would really help set the different tanks apart and allow you to get the right tank for the right job.

[Rivers]

I'm actually expecting both High Elves and Dark Elves to get evasion/parry-based tanks. I always viewed the Warhammer Elves as something alien and mysterious; as such, I'm expecting very different approaches to the class archetypes for them.

Sword 'n board? Done four times already. Dodging/parrying would also add the air of grace that is needed for Elves (even though Warhammer Elves are much more brutal than other versions of Elves, I still see them as graceful).

[Linkusmax]

Rememgbering Pauls comments that the elves will not be getting your typical Sword and Board style tank I am betting that we will be seeing the Swordmasters in the Tank position and the White Lions in the Melee DPS slot.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

even though it is possible, it is pretty hard to balance.
they cant make it so that you parry everything, because that would make you overpowered.
which means they'll get hit sometime.

and as a parry tank, the mob/pvper will probably chop a pretty big peace of your health.

so, if your unlucky, and dont dodge/parry for a few hits, you'll go down faster then a chocolate bar thrown in a diet-group:p

another weak point, is that the damage will be very spiky.

you wont take damage for say 5 seconds(just rambling), and then one attack hits and theres 50% of the hp gone, or more if you have a heavy boss.

if a healer isn't used to it, he'll have a heart-attack.
parry classes are f*cked to heal, because you cant heal on a steady flow, its highly possible you dont have to heal for 5 seconds, but then you need to heal full on, because otherwise he'll die.

im not saying it isn't possible, it would be pretty cool, its just a couple of things to think about

[Vikingkingq]

even though it is possible, it is pretty hard to balance.
they cant make it so that you parry everything, because that would make you overpowered.
which means they'll get hit sometime.

and as a parry tank, the mob/pvper will probably chop a pretty big peace of your health.

so, if your unlucky, and dont dodge/parry for a few hits, you'll go down faster then a chocolate bar thrown in a diet-group:p

another weak point, is that the damage will be very spiky.

you wont take damage for say 5 seconds(just rambling), and then one attack hits and theres 50% of the hp gone, or more if you have a heavy boss.

if a healer isn't used to it, he'll have a heart-attack.
parry classes are f*cked to heal, because you cant heal on a steady flow, its highly possible you dont have to heal for 5 seconds, but then you need to heal full on, because otherwise he'll die.

im not saying it isn't possible, it would be pretty cool, its just a couple of things to think about

I would argue that you're using an old model for your assumptions that based around certain idea: PVE as the center (hence the need for a tank to damage soak for a "heavy boss", dedicated heal-only healers), dodge and parry as percentiles, careers with high dodge/parry having low armor/damage mitigation, and damage from attacks being high enough to eliminate 50% of HP.

Think outside the box: Dodge/parry don't have to be percentile, dodge/parry-based tanks don't have to have greatly reduced armor, no single tank is going to spend most of their time soaking up all the damage from all the damage-sources, and no attack is going to take out 50% of your health.

One thing we know about WAR: fights last quite a bit longer than in WoW, and one-shotting is almost impossible one-on-one.

[Gemini]

I would love to see them as a tank, personally. And just because they don't have a shield dosn't mean that can't have low damage absorbtion, give 'em relatively armor and then give them a bit of extra dodge/parry to make up for it. Not alot, but enough. And let's not forget, swordmasters can cut arrows out of the air with their sword, so that could easily make it's way into a tactic or two to raise survivability.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

I would argue that you're using an old model for your assumptions that based around certain idea: PVE as the center (hence the need for a tank to damage soak for a "heavy boss", dedicated heal-only healers), dodge and parry as percentiles, careers with high dodge/parry having low armor/damage mitigation, and damage from attacks being high enough to eliminate 50% of HP.

Think outside the box: Dodge/parry don't have to be percentile, dodge/parry-based tanks don't have to have greatly reduced armor, no single tank is going to spend most of their time soaking up all the damage from all the damage-sources, and no attack is going to take out 50% of your health.

One thing we know about WAR: fights last quite a bit longer than in WoW, and one-shotting is almost impossible one-on-one.
you can still tank tho.
line up the 'tanks' in a bottleneck, and noone will be able to pass.

however, as i didnt know much of swordsmasters, i assumed they were leather/chainmail wearers.
from your post, it looks like they have better armor, plate i assume?

but too confess, i would also love having them in the game.
from a few pics i've seen, they look very stylish.
and their 'ways' would provide a good unique gameplay thingie:D

[Nerothos]

Swordmasters wear heavy armor in the table top so that they're prepared for the seldom time when someone breaks through their defenses. ;)

[Vikingkingq]

you can still tank tho.
line up the 'tanks' in a bottleneck, and noone will be able to pass.

however, as i didnt know much of swordsmasters, i assumed they were leather/chainmail wearers.
from your post, it looks like they have better armor, plate i assume?

but too confess, i would also love having them in the game.
from a few pics i've seen, they look very stylish.
and their 'ways' would provide a good unique gameplay thingie:D

http://uk.games-workshop.com/highelves/miniature-gallery/8/

[CNST_Casualty]

even though it is possible, it is pretty hard to balance.
they cant make it so that you parry everything, because that would make you overpowered.
which means they'll get hit sometime.

and as a parry tank, the mob/pvper will probably chop a pretty big peace of your health.

so, if your unlucky, and dont dodge/parry for a few hits, you'll go down faster then a chocolate bar thrown in a diet-group:p

another weak point, is that the damage will be very spiky.

you wont take damage for say 5 seconds(just rambling), and then one attack hits and theres 50% of the hp gone, or more if you have a heavy boss.

if a healer isn't used to it, he'll have a heart-attack.
parry classes are f*cked to heal, because you cant heal on a steady flow, its highly possible you dont have to heal for 5 seconds, but then you need to heal full on, because otherwise he'll die.

im not saying it isn't possible, it would be pretty cool, its just a couple of things to think about

His abilities could be tanking based. Imagine skills that let you stop special attacks, lower accuracy of your enemy, increase dodge, ect... Take traditionally rogue-ish skills and give them to a tank. Could be a lot of fun.

[Chouchou]

I like the idea of having a swordmaster as a tank. Tanking with evading and parrying sound a very attractive gameplay to me.
The less carreers will be the same from an armie to another the more happy i'll be.

[Volcano Mentality]

I GOT IT!!!

What if you take the same mechanic of defense (taking away from damage with shield + armor) and put it into the character's agility? Instead of defense dictating damage mitigation, its agility that does so, making it so that you don't just dodge and parry to avoid damage completely, but rather dodge and parry to avoid physical damage and instead take fatigue damage, like in Assassin's Creed. So then the elf doesn't look unnaturally tough for his race by taking axes to the face and laughing as someone has said, it fits into the elven lore, and the Swordmasters look even more badass because they NEVER get hit until they're entirely exhausted. And the stances will fit nicely, so that when he's in an offensive stance he's focusing not as much on dodging, so his evasive skills cost more energy to accomplish than they would if he was in a defensive stance.

Think about it; the tank is no longer a b**ch to heal, he's no stronger/weaker than other tanks, he's easy to balance, it gives a tanklover a new perspective to the class, and he's real to the race. Not bad, eh?:mrgreen:

[wellsy]

I wouldn't be opposed to seeing the Swordmaster as the tank either. If their armour is made of Ithilmar, which is light and very strong, they could be dodge/parry-based tanks with the ability to take some damage if they do get hit.

And I like your suggestion, Elfologist. I could see it happening.

Another idea I got earlier, was that towards the higher levels, a Swordmaster can become a Loremaster, and learn some basic healing spells, which would be pretty interesting in-game, I think. And maybe a few spells that do damage too (naturally, not very much damage).

[Vikingkingq]

I GOT IT!!!

What if you take the same mechanic of defense (taking away from damage with shield + armor) and put it into the character's agility? Instead of defense dictating damage mitigation, its agility that does so, making it so that you don't just dodge and parry to avoid damage completely, but rather dodge and parry to avoid physical damage and instead take fatigue damage, like in Assassin's Creed. So then the elf doesn't look unnaturally tough for his race by taking axes to the face and laughing as someone has said, it fits into the elven lore, and the Swordmasters look even more badass because they NEVER get hit until they're entirely exhausted. And the stances will fit nicely, so that when he's in an offensive stance he's focusing not as much on dodging, so his evasive skills cost more energy to accomplish than they would if he was in a defensive stance.

Think about it; the tank is no longer a b**ch to heal, he's no stronger/weaker than other tanks, he's easy to balance, it gives a tanklover a new perspective to the class, and he's real to the race. Not bad, eh?:mrgreen:

Erm. Sounds good, but for people who aren't familiar with Assassin's Creed...yet...can you be a little bit more explicit about how this works?

[Ranti]

I think it would just be better if they would put the dodge/evasion mechanic on a white lion.

Allowing the sword master to fill the melee dps spot which it just seems as the better fit.

That way they still use a shield/ but also mitagate damage by dodging/parrying instead of a big hulking mass of armor

this would free up the sword master to be a melee dps spot that uses a set of stances, with each stance having a set of cool movies or actions associated with it, possibly a combo system, that requires a starting stance, and as you attack your stance change (and associated buffs) with the altered stance you can launch different attacks...sounds fun to be honest.

[Vikingkingq]

I think it would just be better if they would put the dodge/evasion mechanic on a white lion.

Allowing the sword master to fill the melee dps spot which it just seems as the better fit.

That way they still use a shield/ but also mitagate damage by dodging/parrying instead of a big hulking mass of armor

this would free up the sword master to be a melee dps spot that uses a set of stances, with each stance having a set of cool movies or actions associated with it, possibly a combo system, that requires a starting stance, and as you attack your stance change (and associated buffs) with the altered stance you can launch different attacks...sounds fun to be honest.

White Lions don't use shields. They wield two-handed axes.

[Volcano Mentality]

Erm. Sounds good, but for people who aren't familiar with Assassin's Creed...yet...can you be a little bit more explicit about how this works?

In Assassin's Creed, the combat system is realistic in that, instead of you taking sword blows that would fell a normal human, you properly time your parries to avoid damage, or else the character will use a hasty block that burns fatigue quickly, which has replaced health in the game. In short, you don't get hit until you're exhausted, and at that point you die.

Which is how I was saying the Swordmaster should work, just that there is no parry timing, just a large fatigue bar (stamina stat dictates how long it is, while agility dictates damage, or in this case fatigue, mitigation).

[abr4]

Why make dodge / parry an all or nothing thing?

How about something like "barely dodging / parrying". For example a mortal hit would be barely dodged, reducing it's damage greatly to a scratch wound, but still a wound. Instead of 100% damage reduction you would have a chance for 100% / 75% / 50% / 25% damage reduction. That way a high parry/dodge rate wouldn't result in an nearly unkillable tank, until he get's hit.

[Vikingkingq]

In Assassin's Creed, the combat system is realistic in that, instead of you taking sword blows that would fell a normal human, you properly time your parries to avoid damage, or else the character will use a hasty block that burns fatigue quickly, which has replaced health in the game. In short, you don't get hit until you're exhausted, and at that point you die.

Which is how I was saying the Swordmaster should work, just that there is no parry timing, just a large fatigue bar (stamina stat dictates how long it is, while agility dictates damage, or in this case fatigue, mitigation).

Ah, I see. So it's like a different kind of mitigation. Interesting. I like it. Dunno if it will happen, but sounds good to me.

[Korhadris]

They could easily fit either role, however from some of the concept art we've seen and from the description of the Swordmasters being skilled with all weapons I'm guessing we'll see them in a DPS role with the ability to *gasp* dual wield, as well as use 2-handers. The fact that in WHFB they are only ever present wielding greatswords doesn't mean that they will be limited to that in WAR.

For the tank role I am still hoping for White Lions, though I won't be too sad if they bring in Dragon Princes instead. The reason I see White Lions as a tank is due to the hint in the newsletter piece about the making of the trailer. In this they mention the 'Lion's Roar' ability which sounds very similar to some of the stances available to the TT unit in 5th Ed.

The different stances in 5th Ed allowed the White Lions to either:
A) Reduce the enemies number of attacks by 1 in a charge
B) Reduce the enemies chance to hit by 1
Or C) do D3 wounds per hit against enemies with multiple wounds

Both options A and B sound very 'tankish', add this to the use of heavy armour and lion pelt and the role as body guards and you start to have a better image of a White Lion tank.

Anyway, thats just my 2 cents...

[Axxar]

Tank - two-handed swords, no shields, medium armour but with evasive and parrying capabilites that makes his ability to avoid damage equal to that of heavy armour tanks.

[wellsy]

Under the current rules, Swordmasters have heavy armour, White Lions have light armour.

Thus, Swordmasters are already advantaged in armour.

To me, I think White Lions would be just as good at melee/DPS, because they're expert hunters and stalk white lions, etc, they ought to be able to ambush and hit you from some unexpected angle.

Swordmasters are to me warriors without peer, both defensively and offensively. I could see them filling both roles, although being a bit more defensively inclined, while the White Lions are more offensively inclined.

Makes sense - hunters (aggressive, Kurnous) versus warrior-monks (defensive, Hoeth).

To me, it fits pretty well (Kurnous is the Elf God of the Hunt, Hoeth is their God of Knowledge and Wisdom).

[Axxar]

If the swordmasters indeed have more armour then it seems more likely that they will be the tanks as opposed to their lighter armoured brethren.

[Vikingkingq]

Under the current rules, Swordmasters have heavy armour, White Lions have light armour.

Thus, Swordmasters are already advantaged in armour.

To me, I think White Lions would be just as good at melee/DPS, because they're expert hunters and stalk white lions, etc, they ought to be able to ambush and hit you from some unexpected angle.

Swordmasters are to me warriors without peer, both defensively and offensively. I could see them filling both roles, although being a bit more defensively inclined, while the White Lions are more offensively inclined.

Makes sense - hunters (aggressive, Kurnous) versus warrior-monks (defensive, Hoeth).

To me, it fits pretty well (Kurnous is the Elf God of the Hunt, Hoeth is their God of Knowledge and Wisdom).

I agree. White Lions also make good choices for melee DPS because they have GIANT TWO-HANDED AXES THAT SLICE THROUGH PEOPLE LIKE A HOT KNIFE THROUGH BUTTER.

[Saerain]

The way I see it, the High Elf 'tank' will be the Swordmaster, the Dark Elf 'tank' the Executioner. The latter seems to be a parody of the former, anyway, and I don't see anyone more likely than the Executioner to be the Dark Elves' 'tank' given that Cold One Knights are mounted and the Black Guard is Malekith's sharp, pointy fingers.

[Vikingkingq]

The way I see it, the High Elf 'tank' will be the Swordmaster, the Dark Elf 'tank' the Executioner. The latter seems to be a parody of the former, anyway, and I don't see anyone more likely than the Executioner to be the Dark Elves' 'tank' given that Cold One Knights are mounted and the Black Guard is Malekith's sharp, pointy fingers.

I certainly think that's a good possibility, since the two careers are parallels of each other.

[Yvo]

I'd love to see swordmasters as a tank. Not to mention there are probably better options for melee dps for High Elves.

[Grrblt]

I'd say that Swordmasters work just as good for DPS and tanking, but that there are many other good HE DPS candidates while Swordmaster is pretty much the only choice for tank (except possibly regular spearmen). So SM makes a tank.

[Vikingkingq]

I'd say that Swordmasters work just as good for DPS and tanking, but that there are many other good HE DPS candidates while Swordmaster is pretty much the only choice for tank (except possibly regular spearmen). So SM makes a tank.

Really? Cause the only other viable melee DPS candidate I could think of are White Lions.

Whereas with tanks, you have Dragon Princes, White Lions, and Phoenix Guard.

[Arcadox]

I've extensively looked into this, and my concludsion is that Melee DPS is the much more likely choice.

Here are some factors that make this the more likely answer:

- lack of a shield
- armor is not the best there is (both pheonix guard and white lions have better)
- specialty is the killing blow ability, a very much offensive capability
- not seen as especially sneaky or evasive in the lore

These guys are meant for mass damage, not tanking. I don't think they fit the typical tank in any case, and more likely would be an evasive type tank. However, these aren't seen as a particularly evasive or protective class in the tabletop game.

There are a large amount of possible tanks I see for High elves, basically all of which are better suited for tanking. Here they are:

-Dragon Princes
-White lions
-Pheonix guard

I don't have my high elf army book on hand, but each of these people, and the commanders?(not sure of name) as well have potential for tankage.

Dragon princes would be likely candidates, as we already have the knights of the blazing sun, this would completement that. They are core to the high elf army and exemplify high elf warriors. Their armor is very superior and stunning, and they can use shields (I'm pretty sure)

White lions are courageous and have a heavy cool factor. Their armor is solid, and they could wield shields (where as I could never see a swordmaster using a shield). They are definate "Survivalists".

Pheonix guard are not likely to be in game, but if they are, they must be the tank. Their sole purpose is the defense of the pheonix king, and carry massive shields. They would most definately be the tank.



On a side note: I think the ranged DPS will be the shadow warrior, the Support/healer to be a mage (maybe archmage?) and the most likely tank to be the dragon prince.

[wellsy]

I said it earlier, and I'll say it again, White Lions have light armour, compared to the Swordmasters heavy armour. The Lion cloaks are only used against shooting, and are thus ineffective in combat.

This means that, unless the lore is bent (I say nothing for or against, at the moment), White Lions won't be tanking.

[Axxar]

-Dragon Princes
-White lions
-Pheonix guard


Dragon princes are unlikely since there won't be other mounted fighting careers than the knight of the blazing sun as the chosen. Putting in dragon princes as footsoldiers wouldn't be right and would be edoing them a great disservice.

White lions are more lightly armoured than the swordmasters (as least so it is claimed), so if that's true they definetly won't be tanking if there's swordmasters to do it.

Phoenix guards are probably the most suited for actual tanking due to their armour, but the least suited for an MMORPG since they never speak.

[Grrblt]

Really? Cause the only other viable melee DPS candidate I could think of are White Lions.

Whereas with tanks, you have Dragon Princes, White Lions, and Phoenix Guard.

The ones you listed as tanks are much better as DPS. HE are generally a lightly armored race; Swordmasters are already as heavily armored as anyone else but they also have the whole ninja parry thing which other classes lack. SM are definitely much better than WL (lol light armored) and PG, who due to their large weapons would work as DPS guys. Dragon Princes suffer from a lack of iconity (they're just Silver Helms without the helms) and unless GW does something drastic about them, I don't see them getting much attention.

[Thalion]

As far as table-top goes I definitely say dps.
5 weapon skill, plus even with greatswords they strike in the normal order (and not strike last as you always do with double-handed weapons). Supposedly they are using their weapons very fast.
I think these suggest they will be a damage machine.

[roadkizzle]

I'd have to say that, dragon prince's being mounted in the TT game does not say that they won't be unmounted in WAR. The only way you can field KotBS, is as mounted cavalry. But, surprisingly in the MMO, they can fight on foot as well. Sure, later on they can get access to mounted combat, but that doesn't mean they have to.

[Arcadox]

Another class that hasn't been discussed too much as a possible tank is a high elf commander/prince.

They have it all, heavy armor, shields, cool looks: http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/highelves/catalog/images/high_elf_hero.gif

They have already used things that are hero only (shaman, bright wizard) so I think it is a completely viable option, although a bit stale name/flavor wise.

Also, I don't care what the lore says about dragon princes, I could totally see them being in game and unmounted.

I'd be hard pressed to believe that Phoenix guard would be in game, as they can't speak, and if they could, they supposedly know everything about the future (or something like that). However, if introduced into the game, they would be the tank.

Both a high elf commander and a dragon prince seem much more suited as a tank then a swordmaster imho. They are just not meant to be tanks.

[Vikingkingq]

I've extensively looked into this, and my concludsion is that Melee DPS is the much more likely choice.

Here are some factors that make this the more likely answer:

- lack of a shield
- armor is not the best there is (both pheonix guard and white lions have better)
- specialty is the killing blow ability, a very much offensive capability
- not seen as especially sneaky or evasive in the lore

These guys are meant for mass damage, not tanking. I don't think they fit the typical tank in any case, and more likely would be an evasive type tank. However, these aren't seen as a particularly evasive or protective class in the tabletop game.


I agree completely. However, I don't think that ANY Elf Tank would be a typical tank - that's not how they fight, and even the best Elven warriors would be at a hideous disadvantage if they tried to fight like standard tanks.


There are a large amount of possible tanks I see for High elves, basically all of which are better suited for tanking. Here they are:

-Dragon Princes
-White lions
-Pheonix guard

I don't have my high elf army book on hand, but each of these people, and the commanders?(not sure of name) as well have potential for tankage.

Dragon princes would be likely candidates, as we already have the knights of the blazing sun, this would completement that. They are core to the high elf army and exemplify high elf warriors. Their armor is very superior and stunning, and they can use shields (I'm pretty sure)

White lions are courageous and have a heavy cool factor. Their armor is solid, and they could wield shields (where as I could never see a swordmaster using a shield). They are definate "Survivalists".

Pheonix guard are not likely to be in game, but if they are, they must be the tank. Their sole purpose is the defense of the pheonix king, and carry massive shields. They would most definately be the tank.

On a side note: I think the ranged DPS will be the shadow warrior, the Support/healer to be a mage (maybe archmage?) and the most likely tank to be the dragon prince.

Dragon Princes are limited by the fact that HE Tanks will not have mounted combat.

White Lions can't carry shields as they wield two-handed axes.

Phoenix Guard also do not carry shields as they wield two-handed halberds.

[Vikingkingq]

The ones you listed as tanks are much better as DPS. HE are generally a lightly armored race; Swordmasters are already as heavily armored as anyone else but they also have the whole ninja parry thing which other classes lack. SM are definitely much better than WL (lol light armored) and PG, who due to their large weapons would work as DPS guys. Dragon Princes suffer from a lack of iconity (they're just Silver Helms without the helms) and unless GW does something drastic about them, I don't see them getting much attention.

I agree about the armor, but not the iconicity. If anything, the Silver Helms are Dragon Princes without the Dragon Armor and the rich history of the Dragon Riders of Caledor - Silver Helms are just standard noblemen on horseback.

[Vikingkingq]

Another class that hasn't been discussed too much as a possible tank is a high elf commander/prince.

They have it all, heavy armor, shields, cool looks: http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/highelves/catalog/images/high_elf_hero.gif

They have already used things that are hero only (shaman, bright wizard) so I think it is a completely viable option, although a bit stale name/flavor wise.

Also, I don't care what the lore says about dragon princes, I could totally see them being in game and unmounted.

I'd be hard pressed to believe that Phoenix guard would be in game, as they can't speak, and if they could, they supposedly know everything about the future (or something like that). However, if introduced into the game, they would be the tank.

Both a high elf commander and a dragon prince seem much more suited as a tank then a swordmaster imho. They are just not meant to be tanks.

High Elf Commander/Prince would be out because it's too generic a career.

Unmounted Dragon Princes would have the problem of not having a defining gimmick;
off their horses, they're just warriors in heavy armor.

Phoenix Guard could be in by having them communicate via sign language.

[Thalion]

Phoenix Guard could be in by having them communicate via sign language.

That would be very lame.

[Gemini]

What about the Lorthern(did I get that right?) Sea Guard? Where do they stand in the whole amount of armor and weapon choice sorta thing? I've heard them mentioned, but I don't really know that much about them.

[roadkizzle]

Phoenix Guard are not allowed to communicate because they know the future. This would not only be limited to talking, because if they know sign language, then they could still tell everyone what will happen. Phoenix Guards do not communicate by ANY means in lore. They know what they are supposed to do, through a combination of knowing the future, and recieving orders from people who CAN talk. After they recieve their orders, they follow them unquestioningly. They do not discuss what they should do, they do not ask for a cup of tea.

[Vikingkingq]

Phoenix Guard are not allowed to communicate because they know the future. This would not only be limited to talking, because if they know sign language, then they could still tell everyone what will happen. Phoenix Guards do not communicate by ANY means in lore. They know what they are supposed to do, through a combination of knowing the future, and recieving orders from people who CAN talk. After they recieve their orders, they follow them unquestioningly. They do not discuss what they should do, they do not ask for a cup of tea.

I mean sign-language in the sense of: 5 Druchii around the next bend in the river; 3 warriors and 2 sorcerers; wait for my signal to attack. So that they can transmit info to their fellow soldiers.

[Vikingkingq]

What about the Lorthern(did I get that right?) Sea Guard? Where do they stand in the whole amount of armor and weapon choice sorta thing? I've heard them mentioned, but I don't really know that much about them.

Sea Guard have shields but light armor. They're also Core units, which makes them less likely than Special or Rare units to be made into a career.

[wellsy]

I mean sign-language in the sense of: 5 Druchii around the next bend in the river; 3 warriors and 2 sorcerers; wait for my signal to attack. So that they can transmit info to their fellow soldiers.

Erm... they know the future, so all of the Pheonix Guard already know those 5 Druchii are there.

So thats a bit too much of a stretch.

[Vikingkingq]

Erm... they know the future, so all of the Pheonix Guard already know those 5 Druchii are there.

So thats a bit too much of a stretch.

How would they tell non-Phoenix Guard?

[Arcadox]

High Elf Commander/Prince would be out because it's too generic a career.

Unmounted Dragon Princes would have the problem of not having a defining gimmick;
off their horses, they're just warriors in heavy armor.

Phoenix Guard could be in by having them communicate via sign language.

I disagree with your first 2 points:

First point - It may be a bit generic, but with a name change they could be awesome. Their armor is exiting and vibrant (they are even able to wear dragon armor, I think) and they can wield all sorts of weaponry.

Second point - Knights of the blazing sun off mount have basically the same problem, yet they are in game. I know it would be a major stretch of the lore to take them off the mounts, but they are quite symbolic of the armored units in a Elven army. They are wearing the army's "special" armor.

and in response to a earlier post by gemini -

The sea guard are just like ordinary spearmen expect with bows. They wear light armor and are not very "tankish"

[Vaeronthar]

How would they tell non-Phoenix Guard?
They wouldn't? It isn't as though they're scouts. They're heavy infantry, who don't communicate at all. No matter what they communicate, it's still communication. They don't do it, regardless of what the nature of the communication is.

[Vikingkingq]

I disagree with your first 2 points:

First point - It may be a bit generic, but with a name change they could be awesome. Their armor is exiting and vibrant (they are even able to wear dragon armor, I think) and they can wield all sorts of weaponry.

Second point - Knights of the blazing sun off mount have basically the same problem, yet they are in game. I know it would be a major stretch of the lore to take them off the mounts, but they are quite symbolic of the armored units in a Elven army. They are wearing the army's "special" armor.

and in response to a earlier post by gemini -

The sea guard are just like ordinary spearmen expect with bows. They wear light armor and are not very "tankish"

1. With a name change they'd be something else. Essentially, you're suggesting that Mythic should come up with an entirely new career for tanks when there's no need for it.

2. Knights of the Blazing Sun will have mounted combat, however, and Dragon Princes won't.

[Vikingkingq]

They wouldn't? It isn't as though they're scouts. They're heavy infantry, who don't communicate at all. No matter what they communicate, it's still communication. They don't do it, regardless of what the nature of the communication is.

So they'd let their fellow elves die instead of warning them? Come on, now. All we know is that they've taken a vow of silence to prevent them from ever revealing the future, not that they never ever communicate in any fashion.

[Axxar]

White Lion: "Hey you guyz let's go PvP lol"
Mage: "Indeed, it is time for these dark elves to pay for their deeds. However we need someone to keep their witch elves away from me so I can work my spells."
White Lion: "Lol yes we need tank. Hey Jethian can you come tank?"
Jethian: "..."
Mage: "You want to help us out here Jethian?"
Jethian: "..."
White Lion: "Screw you RPers, this server suks!"
Jethian: "...!"
White Lion: "Argh! They are upon us!"

[Thalion]

So they'd let their fellow elves die instead of warning them? Come on, now. All we know is that they've taken a vow of silence to prevent them from ever revealing the future, not that they never ever communicate in any fashion.

The Phoenix Guards protect the Shrine of Asuryan. They are a silent order, pledged not to allow a single word to pass their lips ever again for they have also guard the chamber of days, on which walls the stories of all phoenix kings, those of the past, the present and the future, is written. the chamber predicts the death of each of them and their successor. the knowledge of their fate whipes the joy of their face, which will bear a grim expression of doom. when a phoenix king dies, the phoenix guard are there immediately to bear the body away, for they knew in advance it would happen. In battle, they fight where they are most needed, knowing in advance who will be victorious and who will fall.

I can't see in any way how Phoenix Guards could be playable without discarding the lore.

[Grrblt]

So they'd let their fellow elves die instead of warning them? Come on, now. All we know is that they've taken a vow of silence to prevent them from ever revealing the future, not that they never ever communicate in any fashion.

There is no need to communicate because they already know who of their fellow elves are going to die.

[Vikingkingq]

The Phoenix Guards protect the Shrine of Asuryan. They are a silent order, pledged not to allow a single word to pass their lips ever again for they have also guard the chamber of days, on which walls the stories of all phoenix kings, those of the past, the present and the future, is written. the chamber predicts the death of each of them and their successor. the knowledge of their fate whipes the joy of their face, which will bear a grim expression of doom. when a phoenix king dies, the phoenix guard are there immediately to bear the body away, for they knew in advance it would happen. In battle, they fight where they are most needed, knowing in advance who will be victorious and who will fall.

I can't see in any way how Phoenix Guards could be playable without discarding the lore.

I see nothing there that says that Phoenix Guard couldn't issue sign-language commands/information to fellow High Elf units on the field of battle, based not on fore-knowledge but current visual information.

[roadkizzle]

The phoenix guard do not communicate. They do not scout ahead, revealing to their fellow high elves that there are enemies around the corner. They know about it, and head them off. Other people notice that they are getting ready for battle, and they do to. They rely upon the shadow warriors, and the Ellyrian Reavers to provide the recon information.

[Anwahir]

Yes, this isn't some sort of delta force situation, where they need to call out commands or information. They know what they need to know and they do what they need to do. They require very little to act alongside other elves and can pretty much just do as they see fit, since they already know they are going to do it.

Really, sign language and all this nonesense is just arguing with set background and is quite futile. You will get no information from a Phoenix Guard, only action.

If they told people what to do and snuck around and gave orders then they would not be Phoenix Guard, they would not know the future and they would have to be something else entirely.Is there any source though that says that Phoenix Guard know EVERYTHING that is going to happen? I thought they just knew the fate of every Phoenix King past and future.

Either way, they are sworn to silence and won't talk, no matter how much you want them to, viking.

Thus, you will probably not see them playable in game. That is the background, no use in arguing with it really.

As far as Swordmasters go, I have a feeling they will be very quick and evasive as many people have suggested. It makes sense, because that is what they are. Highly trained, fast, elves with a huge six foot sword.

I would think it would make sense if they had meditations or something of the sort to give them a Paladin feeling combat style, where you could choose different ways to buff yourself and as such balance your evade and damage and speed and defense.

[Thalion]

Yes, this isn't some sort of delta force situation... Either way, they are sworn to silence and won't talk, no matter how much you want them to, viking.


Well said.

Is there any source though that says that Phoenix Guard know EVERYTHING that is going to happen? I thought they just knew the fate of every Phoenix King past and future.


"In battle, they fight where they are most needed, knowing in advance who will be victorious and who will fall."

This suggests me they know everything they will ever experience at least. Its not only the Phoenix kings' fate for sure.

[Vikingkingq]

Very well. Back to the topic at hand - Swordmasters.

[Gemini]

Very well. Back to the topic at hand - Swordmasters.

Tank tank tank tank, tank tank tank tank, ect ect. At least, I hope so.

[The Masked Prince]

sorry most of you are wrong....

Swordmasters are not DPS, they are TANKS,
shadow warriors are DPS(mele).

[Vikingkingq]

sorry most of you are wrong....

Swordmasters are not DPS, they are TANKS,
shadow warriors are DPS(mele).

Unless you have proof as to why Shadow Warriors are Melee DPS, I think you need to be a lot less definitive in your post.

[Karthalos]

Unless you have proof as to why Shadow Warriors are Melee DPS, I think you need to be a lot less definitive in your post.

I agree, Shadow Warriors seem a lot less viable for melee DPS than White Lions or Swordmasters. It's true that they CAN fight in melee when they need to, but not on equal footing with someone who has been practicing and training with sword mastery for centuries.

[Thalion]

sorry most of you are wrong....

Swordmasters are not DPS, they are TANKS,
shadow warriors are DPS(mele).

You're repeating this and not saying how you are so sure.
We'll see very soon.

[Vaeronthar]

sorry most of you are wrong....

Swordmasters are not DPS, they are TANKS,
shadow warriors are DPS(mele).
I am not taking the opinion of someone incapable of supporting it seriously.

[The Masked Prince]

You're right, If I were you I wouldn't trust me either.

I have no proof of that, just a reliable source told me that.

Lets wait from now on, we'll see.

[Gemini]

You're right, If I were you I wouldn't trust me either.

I have no proof of that, just a reliable source told me that.

Lets wait from now on, we'll see.

I'm sorry, but that just screams beta leak. Or bull****.

[Vikingkingq]

You're right, If I were you I wouldn't trust me either.

I have no proof of that, just a reliable source told me that.

Lets wait from now on, we'll see.

Hmmm...either a reliable source is risking their job or their beta slot to tell you something that's patently wrong, or you're talking out of your sleeve. I wonder which it is?

[Axxar]

I know which one I think it is ;)

[roadkizzle]

That's good Axxar... I also know which one I think it is.

[Blaze]

Hoping they are an evasion based tank. All the tanking classes so far have been unique, with some sort of gimmic.
Black Orc, combo attacks and debuffs.
Ironbreaker, grudge mechanic.
Chosen, dark favors (whatever that means) and mounted combat.
Knight of the Long Name, aura like group buffs and mounted combat.

I think it would be terribly boring if the HE tank was essentially a heavily armored elf with a shield.
I would like to see swordmasters as an avoidance tank that uses different weapon forms in combat.

While using a defensive form he would weave an impenetrable web of steel around himself, parrying blows with his great sword. More defence, less damage.
While using a offensive form he would wreak havoc all round him, cutting people up left and right, but leave himself open to attack. More damage, less defence.

Basically he would be a tank that you cant ignore because if you do he'll hurt you, hurt you real bad. Perhaps he would have positional attacks, as in you don't want to turn your back on him to attack his teammates. Similar to the Ironbreaker who gets more dangerous the more you ignore him, but entirely different in approach. He might have moves that cause him to leap between his teammates and the enemy.

The Swordmasters are the guardians of the tower of Hoeth right? So why not adapt that into a tanking role?

[Vikingkingq]

Hoping they are an evasion based tank. All the tanking classes so far have been unique, with some sort of gimmic.
Black Orc, combo attacks and debuffs.
Ironbreaker, grudge mechanic.
Chosen, dark favors (whatever that means) and mounted combat.
Knight of the Long Name, aura like group buffs and mounted combat.

I think it would be terribly boring if the HE tank was essentially a heavily armored elf with a shield.
I would like to see swordmasters as an avoidance tank that uses different weapon forms in combat.

While using a defensive form he would weave an impenetrable web of steel around himself, parrying blows with his great sword. More defence, less damage.
While using a offensive form he would wreak havoc all round him, cutting people up left and right, but leave himself open to attack. More damage, less defence.

Basically he would be a tank that you cant ignore because if you do he'll hurt you, hurt you real bad. Perhaps he would have positional attacks, as in you don't want to turn your back on him to attack his teammates. Similar to the Ironbreaker who gets more dangerous the more you ignore him, but entirely different in approach. He might have moves that cause him to leap between his teammates and the enemy.

The Swordmasters are the guardians of the tower of Hoeth right? So why not adapt that into a tanking role?

Positional would work. As would dodge/oarry. Or both.

[The Masked Prince]

Hoping they are an evasion based tank. All the tanking classes so far have been unique, with some sort of gimmic.
Black Orc, combo attacks and debuffs.
Ironbreaker, grudge mechanic.
Chosen, dark favors (whatever that means) and mounted combat.
Knight of the Long Name, aura like group buffs and mounted combat.

I think it would be terribly boring if the HE tank was essentially a heavily armored elf with a shield.
I would like to see swordmasters as an avoidance tank that uses different weapon forms in combat.

While using a defensive form he would weave an impenetrable web of steel around himself, parrying blows with his great sword. More defence, less damage.
While using a offensive form he would wreak havoc all round him, cutting people up left and right, but leave himself open to attack. More damage, less defence.

Basically he would be a tank that you cant ignore because if you do he'll hurt you, hurt you real bad. Perhaps he would have positional attacks, as in you don't want to turn your back on him to attack his teammates. Similar to the Ironbreaker who gets more dangerous the more you ignore him, but entirely different in approach. He might have moves that cause him to leap between his teammates and the enemy.

The Swordmasters are the guardians of the tower of Hoeth right? So why not adapt that into a tanking role?

Excellent analysis,
hope it's closed to that, don't know for positional attacks for him,
I find it would fit better the vicious and rogue type classes.

[Jonas]

So um.. what niche does that leave melee dps for Helfs?

[Gemini]

White Lion, Loremaster(though they're probably too close to Swordmasters), Lothern Sea Gaurd, ummm... those would be the top choices, I think. If the Swordmaster does end up as a Tank, my money is on White Lions for melee dps.

[Jonas]

I may have been unclear. The premise of a "tank you can't ignore because he can do too much dps" is dangerous territory as they tend to be more effective than pure melee dps at that point.

[Blaze]

I may have been unclear. The premise of a "tank you can't ignore because he can do too much dps" is dangerous territory as they tend to be more effective than pure melee dps at that point.

That is true. But thats why his most damaging attacks would be positional. And while he is using an offensive form and doing real damage he would also take quite a bit more damage, making it risky for the tank to stay like that all the time.

Also he might not have access to his taunt abilities unless he was using a defensive weapon form. I bit like the Warrior stances from WoW, exept cooler.

Here are some of the abilites Eltharion, HE special character who is like the Swordmaster. He may only have one active at a time, so they are essentially like stances.

Way of the Willow Branch: Eltharion's body twists and contorts like a reed in the wind, and his sword deflects incoming blows with astounding speed, making him virtually impossible to hit. Any close combat attacks against Eltharion require 6s to hit, before any other modifications, and regardless of relative Weapons Skills or any other special rules.

Way of the Winter Breeze: Weaving his sword in a bewildering, swirling arc, Eltharion is able to guide his blade through even the most steadfast defence. Eltharion attacks at +1 to hit in close combat.

Way of the Swooping Eagle: Eltharion summons all of his speed and might into a few deadly blows. Eltharion's attacks are resolved at +2 Strength.

Way of the Breaking Storm: Unleashing his speed and strength in a flurry of blistering attacks, Eltharion rains down blow after blow on the enemy. Eltharion gains +2 Attacks.

Edit: Source (http://uk.games-workshop.com/highelves/special-characters/6/)
Double edit: Hah, I just saw Viningkingg brought up these same stances in the other thread. And here I thought I was beeing original :P

[Vikingkingq]

So um.. what niche does that leave melee dps for Helfs?

Actually, there are a couple of possibilities:

1. White Lions with pets. Haven't had a pet-class meleer.

2. White Lions without pets, based around a couple of potential gimmicks:

* Tempo-based attacks - given the nature of the two-handed Elvish waraxe, a lot of the damage from such a weapon comes from building up momentum, winding up for a swing. A possible mechanic could be allowing the player to modulate their speed by opting for lots of fast, less damaging swings, or going for slower, bigger hits.

* Momentum-based attacks - by this, I don't mean the same momentum that the Hammerer has wherein doing damage makes you hit harder and faster, but the general idea of the momentum of a fight; obviously, this would work differently. The way this would work is that the White Lion would have a couple of basic attacks, but then a whole bunch of special attacks that would unlock/become active when the enemy reached a certain point of damage - so at 90% of max health, you could do an attack that disarmed or snared in addition to doing a bunch of damage, at 50%, you could do some nasty bleed attacks and debuff attacks, and at 30%, you could do some Execute-like attacks.

[Vikingkingq]

That is true. But thats why his most damaging attacks would be positional. And while he is using an offensive form and doing real damage he would also take quite a bit more damage, making it risky for the tank to stay like that all the time.

Also he might not have access to his taunt abilities unless he was using a defensive weapon form. I bit like the Warrior stances from WoW, exept cooler.

Here are some of the abilites Eltharion, HE special character who is like the Swordmaster. He may only have one active at a time, so they are essentially like stances.

Edit: Source (http://uk.games-workshop.com/highelves/special-characters/6/)
Double edit: Hah, I just saw Viningkingg brought up these same stances in the other thread. And here I thought I was beeing original :P

Thanks for reposting those here, and adding some useful points regarding access to taunts, taking more damage, etc.

A further points about positionals:
So far, we have different tanks with different ways of making you focus on them.
1. Black Orcs - debuff you, can physically get in the way.
2. Ironbreakers - get much much stronger, can slow you down.
3. KotBS - buff their friends, make it harder to kill them.

The way that positionals could work (and originally I thought KotBS were going to be positional tanks), is that their damage would boost against targets they're attacking from the flank or rear, so that if you try to run around them and focus on someone else, you're putting yourself in danger.

[Blaze]

The way that positionals could work (and originally I thought KotBS were going to be positional tanks), is that their damage would boost against targets they're attacking from the flank or rear, so that if you try to run around them and focus on someone else, you're putting yourself in danger.

Thats just what I had in mind.

Whenever he goes defensive he would lose most of his damage dealing abilites, but (and this is important) keep all his positional attacks.

I see swordmasters having lower toughness and lighter armor. But a very high dodge and parry chance when using a defensive stance or weapon form.

Whenever he goes offensive those he would lose most of that avoidance and only be left with his rather low damage reduction.

So now he have a tank that you want to keep on front of you at all times if possible, but who is also annoyingly hard to damage if you try to focus on him. A lot the other tank classes we have seen so far, but different.

[Blaze]

* Momentum-based attacks - by this, I don't mean the same momentum that the Hammerer has wherein doing damage makes you hit harder and faster, but the general idea of the momentum of a fight; obviously, this would work differently. The way this would work is that the White Lion would have a couple of basic attacks, but then a whole bunch of special attacks that would unlock/become active when the enemy reached a certain point of damage - so at 90% of max health, you could do an attack that disarmed or snared in addition to doing a bunch of damage, at 50%, you could do some nasty bleed attacks and debuff attacks, and at 30%, you could do some Execute-like attacks.

I like this idea.

They would be competent fighters over all obviously, but they would exel at finishing off wounded opponents and taking out vulnerable classes with low hit points, such as casters.

Unlike Hammerers who build up damage and unlock knockbacks and stuns, and Witch Huners who stab people in the back and build up combo moves that lead to "confessions" that seriouosly hurt people, While Lions would posess huge frontloaded damage against targets that are already wounded.

This would make them a great "support dps class" for lack of a better term. They would help finish off targets, taking them out before they can get away or do any more damage.
I believe real lions also target the weak or wounded in a herd of prey :)

An enemy group might want to try and take out a White Lion, because if one of their teammates falls to low health, the White Lion will "pounce on them", perhaps litterally with some kind of charge/intercept like attack, and take out that wounded target before they have a chance to heal him up.

This mechanic would mean that White Lions are at a disadavantage against healing classes though, particularly in 1v1. But this could be offset by attacks that reduce healing efficiency (but not called Mortal Strike obviously :P) or some kind of bleeding DoT effects that build up on the target.

This got longer than I intended and is on the wrong thread in the wrong forum. Oh well... sometimes you just get creative :D

[Vikingkingq]

Thats just what I had in mind.

Whenever he goes defensive he would lose most of his damage dealing abilites, but (and this is important) keep all his positional attacks.

I see swordmasters having lower toughness and lighter armor. But a very high dodge and parry chance when using a defensive stance or weapon form.

Whenever he goes offensive those he would lose most of that avoidance and only be left with his rather low damage reduction.

So now he have a tank that you want to keep on front of you at all times if possible, but who is also annoyingly hard to damage if you try to focus on him. A lot the other tank classes we have seen so far, but different.

You state it perfectly, especially looking at how Mythic describes how encountering an Ironbreaker works. I couldn't have put it better myself.

[Vikingkingq]

I like this idea.

They would be competent fighters over all obviously, but they would exel at finishing off wounded opponents and taking out vulnerable classes with low hit points, such as casters.

Unlike Hammerers who build up damage and unlock knockbacks and stuns, and Witch Huners who stab people in the back and build up combo moves that lead to "confessions" that seriouosly hurt people, While Lions would posess huge frontloaded damage against targets that are already wounded.

This would make them a great "support dps class" for lack of a better term. They would help finish off targets, taking them out before they can get away or do any more damage.
I believe real lions also target the weak or wounded in a herd of prey :)

An enemy group might want to try and take out a White Lion, because if one of their teammates falls to low health, the White Lion will "pounce on them", perhaps litterally with some kind of charge/intercept like attack, and take out that wounded target before they have a chance to heal him up.

This mechanic would mean that White Lions are at a disadavantage against healing classes though, particularly in 1v1. But this could be offset by attacks that reduce healing efficiency (but not called Mortal Strike obviously :P) or some kind of bleeding DoT effects that build up on the target.

This got longer than I intended and is on the wrong thread in the wrong forum. Oh well... sometimes you just get creative :D

I like the way you put it, because that would make sense - White Lions are master hunters, and they no doubt learn how to take advantage of sudden weaknesses, pouncing on them as you say.

[Blaze]

You state it perfectly, especially looking at how Mythic describes how encountering an Ironbreaker works. I couldn't have put it better myself.

Thanks. It's fun to speculate, but we'll know in a few weeks I guess.

[VeriusCarth]

*Shrug* They seem to me like they're more suited to DPS... however, the Knights of the Blazing Sun are shown wielding Greatswords, or spears in their pictures... so you never know.

However, Dragon Princes seem more likely, in terms of a tanking class. What with the earlier mention of KotBS, and Chosen being strong with "their feet off the ground." So, you never know. (Yet.)

[Gemini]

The biggest problem with dragon princes is that they can't talk, at all. In an MMO, thats just... not going to happen.

[Vikingkingq]

The biggest problem with dragon princes is that they can't talk, at all. In an MMO, thats just... not going to happen.

You're confusing them with Phoenix Guard.

The problem with Dragon Princes is that they are primarily distinctive because of their horses decked out to be dragons. And only two careers have mounted combat in WAR - Chosen and KotBS.

[Gemini]

You're confusing them with Phoenix Guard.

The problem with Dragon Princes is that they are primarily distinctive because of their horses decked out to be dragons. And only two careers have mounted combat in WAR - Chosen and KotBS.

Oh right, right, my bad. Silly me thinking I had actually learned something about Elf lore, heheh.

As for the mounted thing, that comment was made a long time ago, and this game changes more than a chamealon in a bag of skittles. Also, if nothing has changed, they might have only meant two of the careers they have showed, so to not hint at the Elven classes.

[VeriusCarth]

If not Dragon Princes, they might just go with Lothern Sea Guard. Or standard spearmen... which would be quite disappointing. I'd prefer Swordmasters as tankers, over normal Spearmen, but I think Swordmasters seem more fitting to be the melee DPS.

[Arcadox]

Oh right, right, my bad. Silly me thinking I had actually learned something about Elf lore, heheh.

As for the mounted thing, that comment was made a long time ago, and this game changes more than a chamealon in a bag of skittles. Also, if nothing has changed, they might have only meant two of the careers they have showed, so to not hint at the Elven classes.

Omg that made me laugh.

However, I do think dragon princes are a viable option. They have very ornate and strong armor. They'd make a really interesting class.

[Blaze]

However, I do think dragon princes are a viable option. They have very ornate and strong armor. They'd make a really interesting class.

I don't know enough about them to come up with something that would make them stand out. All the classes so far have some kind of unique mechanic, what do you think would make them interesting, apart from having ornate armor?

It's not that I'm opposed to seeing something like the Dragon Prince as the HE tank. I just can't see what would make them compete with the other tank classes that have been very distinct, each with a special gimmick and a different approach to the tank role.

I want to see something just as unique and cool from the elves. It would be so dull if it's just a elf in heavy armor.

But then again, I'm not Mythic, and I'm sure they are better at coming up with interesting class mechanics than me :P

[Arcadox]

I don't know enough about them to come up with something that would make them stand out. All the classes so far have some kind of unique mechanic, what do you think would make them interesting, apart from having ornate armor?

It's not that I'm opposed to seeing something like the Dragon Prince as the HE tank. I just can't see what would make them compete with the other tank classes that have been very distinct, each with a special gimmick and a different approach to the tank role.

I want to see something just as unique and cool from the elves. It would be so dull if it's just a elf in heavy armor.

But then again, I'm not Mythic, and I'm sure they are better at coming up with interesting class mechanics than me :P

Well, firstly, dragon princes wear Dragon armor, not heavy armor.

Also, they made the Ironbreaker very interesting, it it was just a fighter unit for the dwarfs. Nothing all too exciting about them really.

I'm sure they can come up with some very nice background for the Dragon princes, and a sweet gimmick.

[VeriusCarth]

Well, there's a thought: What if (assuming that the pet class isn't made-up) the tanking class is entirely new, and isn't based off of a pre-existing Warhammer model, like the Zealot?

Always a possibility. (I agree about it being a tad dull if it's just an Elf that runs around in heavy armor.)

[Blaze]

Well, firstly, dragon princes wear Dragon armor, not heavy armor.

Also, they made the Ironbreaker very interesting, it it was just a fighter unit for the dwarfs. Nothing all too exciting about them really.

I'm sure they can come up with some very nice background for the Dragon princes, and a sweet gimmick.

Yeah you are right of course.

But I'd still like to see something even more unconventional than the what I think Dragon Princes have potential to be.

But thats just me.

I agree that examples like the Ironbreaker prove that Mythic can take units from the TT and make them interesting.

[legoklods]

I voted tank because swordmasters are some of few elvs who can whear heavy armour. also back in the 5. edition swordmasters had the abillety: defelct arrows. (5+)
Even though swordmasters are great at chopping on the tabletop they are still the hardest unit they've got.

As a melee dps I would like to see white lions.
As a ranged dps I think shadow warriors would be great.
And a mage.

[Pieter Klass]

I am hoping DPs coz i already have my tank slot for the chosen and the idea of a master swordsman apeals more than the brute force of the hammer and the drooling of the choppa the marauder looks cool but i already have me chaos pegged

[Axxar]

As for the mounted thing, that comment was made a long time ago, and this game changes more than a chamealon in a bag of skittles.That's very true. I wouldn't rule it out, but I also wouldn't count on it.

[Dracnye]

Melee DPS, cause that is what they are most suited to. The likely choices for a tank will either be a White Lion of Chrace with a pet to help tank, or one of the mounted units, though walking on foot.

[dynamo112]

If Swordmasters were to be tanks...IMO they wouldnt be evasion tanks and instead they will just be tanks that use 2h'ers. Who says you need a shield to block? With a really really big sword im sure it'll be very easy for a professional swordmaster to block attacks with his sword. ;)

[roadkizzle]

Yes, and they're called Parry's.

[VeriusCarth]

I'll be honest, the idea of having the Swordmaster be a tank is starting to grow on me.

It'd be unique, it'd make more sense than some dude simply dual wielding, and they are quite a heavily armored class.

And it frees up a spot for the Melee DPS, in which the Shadow Warrior might fit, or the White Lions Of Chrace. Subsequently opening the Ranged DPS class for a caster (but it'll sadly be occupied by the HE pet class. D: ) And thusly leaving the only caster for HEs to be a healer as well.

Swordmaster / Dragon Prince would hardly be as interesting as some of the other combos.

However, I find myself dreading the fact that they'll give the Shadow Warriors a Hawk pet or something. =/

Ah well, we'll know in a couple of days! :D

[dynamo112]

Yes, and they're called Parry's.

*shrug* Works for me. :p

[Vikingkingq]

I'll be honest, the idea of having the Swordmaster be a tank is starting to grow on me.

It'd be unique, it'd make more sense than some dude simply dual wielding, and they are quite a heavily armored class.

And it frees up a spot for the Melee DPS, in which the Shadow Warrior might fit, or the White Lions Of Chrace. Subsequently opening the Ranged DPS class for a caster (but it'll sadly be occupied by the HE pet class. D: ) And thusly leaving the only caster for HEs to be a healer as well.

Swordmaster / Dragon Prince would hardly be as interesting as some of the other combos.

However, I find myself dreading the fact that they'll give the Shadow Warriors a Hawk pet or something. =/

Ah well, we'll know in a couple of days! :D

If Swordmasters are the tanks, I would think that White Lions would be the better Melee DPS choice (and possible pet class). I'm pulling for Shadow Warrior sans pet for Ranged DPS.

[VeriusCarth]

If Swordmasters are the tanks, I would think that White Lions would be the better Melee DPS choice (and possible pet class). I'm pulling for Shadow Warrior sans pet for Ranged DPS.

You've got a point, and honestly, I much prefer it that way.

Something has me thinking that Mythic would do something like that, making another pet class, but not making it exactly the same as the other pet class. Like all the healers have been mostly unique, and how say, The Ironbreaker is different than the Black Orc, despite the fact that they're both tanks. While this is a bad example (considering that they're the same class... I just like to speculate.)

[Biocide]

The best thing Mythic has done with this game is consistently break rules or presets that detract from a game, it'd be a shame to see the High Elves pigeonholed into some Easy Bake oven mold.

[VeriusCarth]

The best thing Mythic has done with this game is consistently break rules or presets that detract from a game, it'd be a shame to see the High Elves pigeonholed into some Easy Bake oven mold.

It would, but I'm hoping we'll be pleasantly surprised once word gets 'round in what... tomorrow, right? If nothing else though, we'll get to see the pretty light tool? >.>

[Hampus]

Meele DPS. It's obvious, is it not?

Otherwise:
I'd expect a heavy tank to be usin' shields and Swordmasters never have used shields.

[Gemini]

Meele DPS. It's obvious, is it not?

Otherwise:

That's the whole point, people want something diffrent. If he can knock arrows out of the air with his sword, he can probably also parry blows pretty well, and that pretty much covers the needs of a shield. So far the 4 tank archtypes have all had shield options, alot of us think it would be cool to have this diffrent. Not to mention they are heavy armored, while, to my knoweldge, alot of other choices are more lacking in armor.

[Grrblt]

Meele DPS. It's obvious, is it not?

Otherwise: [stuff about tanks using shields]

High Elf has only one troop type using shields, and it's the lowly spearman (also the sea guard but they're just spearmen with bows). While spearmen certainly could make cool, semi-ranged tanks that could fight in rows, I don't see it happening.

[Jonas]

Guessing we can say tank now ;)

[Grrblt]

So much for "obviously" melee dps.

[Grimfell Gromgear]

How much do you want to bet in a few months we'll see the...

'Yeah he's a tank but he could DPS' thread where someone tries to argue why they will be able to play it like a melee DPS class...

Ah the wonders of people who don't understand iconic classes...

[Blaze]

Yay!

So now just the question of how they will tank. Look at page 6 on this thread for my suggestions.

[Karthalos]

I myself am very, very pleased with the direction Mythic chose for the Swordmaster of Hoeth. No, he does not use a shield, and I don't believe he'll be as heavily armored as say, the Ironbreaker. And that is precisely why, to me, they're the most interesting of the Tank classes unveiled so far, and I fully plan on rolling a Swordmaster as my prime alt. It just.. fits the High Elves much more than having a shield-bearing behemoth of a class that just sits there and soaks up all the damage.

This is all assuming they will be evasion/parry focused, along with the stances..

[Axxar]

TANK - defenisive melee

Centuries of training
Swords, swords, swords

Speed and finesse
Combos
Powerful finishers

Source (http://www.enl.party-site.at/gc-coverage/26.jpg)

[Grimfell Gromgear]

TANK - defenisive melee

Centuries of training
Swords, swords, swords

Speed and finesse
Combos
Powerful finishers

Source (http://www.enl.party-site.at/gc-coverage/26.jpg)

Which rather makes me hope it'll be a dodge tank.

Not that I'd ever play one, but dodge tanks don't get enough love.

[Arcadox]

Man they are beautiful. The art direction of the concept arts is amazing for the elves, all them. I really wish they revealed the pet class and the sorceress, but I got my archmage, the class I've been waiting forever for.

The swordmaster looks amazing, and the pic with the swords makes me drool over him(her really, I think the pic is a girl). I am beyond thrilled to see these, nothing has disappointed so far, and there is a whole lot more still to be revealed!

[Jonas]

Which rather makes me hope it'll be a dodge tank.

Not that I'd ever play one, but dodge tanks don't get enough love.

That's because they're generally either:

a) Crap

or

b) Overpowered.

It's the nature of the beast of full mitigation tanks.

[Grrblt]

That's because they're generally either:

a) Crap

or

b) Overpowered.

It's the nature of the beast of full mitigation tanks.

Luckily, dodges don't have to be full mitigation. You can almost dodge an attack so you only get 10% of the damage.

[Grimfell Gromgear]

That's because they're generally either:

a) Crap

or

b) Overpowered.

It's the nature of the beast of full mitigation tanks.

That's just because they're poorly done in most games.

I could poorly do any class and make them crap or overpowered. Being able to program a good dodge tank would certainly be proof of a good understanding of game balance for a company. Shouldn't be too ridiculoulsly hard to start crunching numbers to figure out what a good dodge rate is to equal a statistically even amount of damage mitigation as armor would.

Oh, and for anyone who read it, I meant I'd never play a high elf, not a dodge tank.

[Ralzar]

Shouldn't be too ridiculoulsly hard to start crunching numbers to figure out what a good dodge rate is to equal a statistically even amount of damage mitigation as armor would.


That works in theory but is problematic in practice. The problem is that even though the results evens out over time it leads to drastically different experiences.

The problem is that a dodgeing is very much luck-based. Which easily leads to the tank suddenly dying if he's unlucky without feelign he's done anything wrong. It's just "everything's fine... everything's fine... everything's... oh, I'm dead".
While a tank built on absorbing damage has a more steady decline. Where he can try to mitigate the damage through heals or running away. Or by having his teammates try to help him out.

The tank built on avoidance easily becomes unreliable compared to a tank built on absorbtion.


I'm not saying it's impossible though. I really want to see them try it (and preferrably make it work :P) but it's complicated to pull off.

[Grimfell Gromgear]

That works in theory but is problematic in practice. The problem is that even though the results evens out over time it leads to drastically different experiences.

The problem is that a dodgeing is very much luck-based. Which easily leads to the tank suddenly dying if he's unlucky without feelign he's done anything wrong. It's just "everything's fine... everything's fine... everything's... oh, I'm dead".
While a tank built on absorbing damage has a more steady decline. Where he can try to mitigate the damage through heals or running away. Or by having his teammates try to help him out.

The tank built on avoidance easily becomes unreliable compared to a tank built on absorbtion.


I'm not saying it's impossible though. I really want to see them try it (and preferrably make it work :P) but it's complicated to pull off.

True enough, and that's one of the reasons they don't fit in well with the Min/maxers playbook.

I mean, amongst a group of friends you don't mind if sometimes your tank is amazing and never injured, and sometimes he's needing heals every 5 seconds.

But, the min/max crowd does want realiability. However, in a game like WAR, might be one of the times they don't get that.

Though it could be funny if you see every high elf party at end game with a KotBS or a *shudder* Ironbreaker instead of a Swordmaster. Not something I'd want to see to be sure, but funny.

I think the trick might be to go with something similiar to Ninjas in FFXI, but perhaps not as overpowered or costly. As in, abilities that grant guaranteed dodges and mitigations, moreso than just having straight heavy armor. Might be easier to balance that out than just a straight dodge percentage (which they could still keep as a backup should they be caught with their pointy ears down)

[Vikingkingq]

Well, it looks like the 30% was right! Kudos!

[VeriusCarth]

Before we go off on a rampage about how Swordmasters are likely to suck, lets give Mythic a chance. They've been doing expertly so far, and I've got high hopes that they'll be able to pull it off.

[Blaze]

Well, perhaps Swordmaster won't have terrible migitation and amazing avoidance.

They do wear well crafted heavy armor, just not shields. So they might have the least migitation and the most avoidance, but they will still not be completely evasion based

Neither sucky nor OP, just specialised.

[Jonas]

Well, perhaps Swordmaster won't have terrible migitation and amazing avoidance.

They do wear well crafted heavy armor, just not shields. So they might have the least migitation and the most avoidance, but they will still not be completely evasion based

Neither sucky nor OP, just specialised.

The nature of avoidance is Sucky or OP.

If you can rely on avoidance alone it's OP.
If you can't rely on it, it's sucky.

The only way to make it work is for the Blademaster to be able to partially mitigate damage in some way. Which is probably going to be through active effects; that way, Swordmaster gets default good damage (2hander) but spends his AP on defense whereas an Ironbreaker gets good defense (shield) but spends his AP on attack.

And even that's very difficult to balance. I wish Mythic luck in doing so.

[jkdfhk]

Im confused can someone give me directions to more info on the Swordmaster cause i watched one podcast and Paul said that he would deal a lot of damage fast and show of with some twinkly lights. But everyone here is saying tank did i miss something?

[Jonas]

Im confused can someone give me directions to more info on the Swordmaster cause i watched one podcast and Paul said that he would deal a lot of damage fast and show of with some twinkly lights. But everyone here is saying tank did i miss something?

1) Paul says everything deals a lot of damage fast. That's the nature of Paul.
2) Check the Leipzig intro, it's referenced as the High Elf "tank" or "defensive melee"

[jkdfhk]

1) Paul says everything deals a lot of damage fast. That's the nature of Paul.
2) Check the Leipzig intro, it's referenced as the High Elf "tank" or "defensive melee"
Cheers *adds more letters cause message is too short*

[Vikingkingq]

Im confused can someone give me directions to more info on the Swordmaster cause i watched one podcast and Paul said that he would deal a lot of damage fast and show of with some twinkly lights. But everyone here is saying tank did i miss something?

Ok, this is why the Career video from WAAGH! is important.

All tanks have DPS. The way it works is that they have slow, heavy attacks, whereas Melee DPS have very fast attacks.

If you look at the screenshot, you'll note that it says "Martial Prowess - speed and finesse, combos, powerful finishers."

So here's where both Paul and the Screenshot make sense. The Swordmaster can do some pretty nifty damage, but only by building up combos to powerful finishers. Sort of like the Black Orc, except that they have cool magics.

But don't take my word for it:
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=443034&postcount=12

[Zend]

Maybe there will be some sort of "glancing blow" system where the Swordmaster may sometimes dodge most of the force of the attack but still take dmg. If you add that with his armour, abilites and full dodges he could be just as reliable as any other heavy tank. Well except for the Ironbreaker cause Dwarfs > Elves. ;)

[Vikingkingq]

From the video we've seen so far, it seems like a lot of the Swordmaster's tanking abilities are AOE and very combat-oriented. Wall of Darting Steel increases your chance to parry or disrupt attacks in a field of effect, while also hurting anyone inside that field. Vortex is a melee-ranged AOE that hits all the enemies in front of you and then knocks them back.

So, I would say that tank-wise, they probably rely more on abilities than straight-up armor.
Think of tanking as not just a straight up choice between armor and non-armor, but as a spectrum of different options:
- Ironbreakers: use superior armor to mitigate damage.
- Black Orcs: use debuffs to lower the damage that comes their way.
- KotBS: uses buffs to boost their ability to deal with damage.
- Chosen: uses Dark Gifts to buff themselves, debuff others. (I think, not sure).
- Swordmaster: uses parry + aoe effects to avoid damage/push damage-dealers out of range.

[Krulltak]

From the video we've seen so far, it seems like a lot of the Swordmaster's tanking abilities are AOE and very combat-oriented. Wall of Darting Steel increases your chance to parry or disrupt attacks in a field of effect, while also hurting anyone inside that field. Vortex is a melee-ranged AOE that hits all the enemies in front of you and then knocks them back.

So, I would say that tank-wise, they probably rely more on abilities than straight-up armor.
Think of tanking as not just a straight up choice between armor and non-armor, but as a spectrum of different options:
- Ironbreakers: use superior armor to mitigate damage.
- Black Orcs: use debuffs to lower the damage that comes their way.
- KotBS: uses buffs to boost their ability to deal with damage.
- Chosen: uses Dark Gifts to buff themselves, debuff others. (I think, not sure).
- Swordmaster: uses parry + aoe effects to avoid damage/push damage-dealers out of range.

Good way of putting it, jack. They all sound perfectly unique with very distinct gimmicks.

[Blaze]

So, I would say that tank-wise, they probably rely more on abilities than straight-up armor.
Think of tanking as not just a straight up choice between armor and non-armor, but as a spectrum of different options:
- Ironbreakers: use superior armor to mitigate damage.
- Black Orcs: use debuffs to lower the damage that comes their way.
- KotBS: uses buffs to boost their ability to deal with damage.
- Chosen: uses Dark Gifts to buff themselves, debuff others. (I think, not sure).
- Swordmaster: uses parry + aoe effects to avoid damage/push damage-dealers out of range.
I like this. Well put.

Whats your take on the Black Guard? I know we don't know much but it's fun to speculate.

Take damage to gain hate, use hate to hurt others might work on mobs, but player will then just refrain from hurting the BG until all his buddies are dead.

I have no doubt Mythic has something in mind, but still...

I realize this is the wrong thread to ask this but I'm not really looking to start a whole debate so it's probably okay.

[Krulltak]

I like this. Well put.

Whats your take on the Black Guard? I know we don't know much but it's fun to speculate.

Take damage to gain hate, use hate to hurt others might work on mobs, but player will then just refrain from hurting the BG until all his buddies are dead.

I have no doubt Mythic has something in mind, but still...


The Black Guard works by the fact that, if you attack him(and being a Tanker, he has ways of forcing you to attack him), his damage increases and thus he can easily slay you in the melee.

The Ironbreaker works similairly, but it's by the fact that his damage increases when you attack his allies, not him.

[Blaze]

The Black Guard works by the fact that, if you attack him(and being a Tanker, he has ways of forcing you to attack him), his damage increases and thus he can easily slay you in the melee.

The Ironbreaker works similairly, but it's by the fact that his damage increases when you attack his allies, not him.
Yes it's how he will force people to attack him I'm interested in. The Ironbreaker makes more sense because Grudge comes from his allies taking damage, giving people incentive to attack him instead.
The hate system seems to give people incentive not to attack the BG. Again I'm not really worried they wont be able to tank. More curious how this apparent contradiction will be solved.

[Krulltak]

Yes it's how he will force people to attack him I'm interested in. The Ironbreaker makes more sense because Grudge comes from his allies taking damage, giving people incentive to attack him instead.
The hate system seems to give people incentive not to attack the BG. Again I'm not really worried they wont be able to tank. More curious how this apparent contradiction will be solved.


Every Heavy Tank in WAR has the same taunt ability: Reduce 50% of his damage against everyone but you.

Also, the Black Guard, being a melee class, won't be in arm's reach of a ranged class, thus won't be able to use all his Hatred damage on them.

I Ironbreaker can wear down his blows long enough for him to die, a Knight can buff his allies against the Black Guard, and a Swordmaster can knock the Guard off of his feet.














EDIT: The Witch Hunter can run circles around him, the Hammerer's momentum can surprass his damage...

[Blaze]

I'd like to see the Black Guard having the best taunt abilities of the tanks. That could be his tanking speciality. Taunts that affect more targets and work longer, but are balanced overall of course. That would give people incentive enough to attack him and give him a chance to build up that hatred.

Taunts are insults or challenges right? Somehow distracting opponents and goading them into attacking you. Sounds perfect for a dark elf to be good at :)
If the Swordmaster is good at finesse and protecting his allies and taking little damage while doing it, I can see how the Black Guard could be an expert at wading into melee to distract people, hurl insults to make them attack him and then get medieval on their asses :D

[Hampus]

Ha. I guess I was wrong.
Swordmaster: The High Elf tank class, uses his precision and swordcraft.

http://www.jeuxvideo.tv/warhammer-on...deo-42350.html

[Vikingkingq]

Every Heavy Tank in WAR has the same taunt ability: Reduce 50% of his damage against everyone but you.

Also, the Black Guard, being a melee class, won't be in arm's reach of a ranged class, thus won't be able to use all his Hatred damage on them.

I Ironbreaker can wear down his blows long enough for him to die, a Knight can buff his allies against the Black Guard, and a Swordmaster can knock the Guard off of his feet.

EDIT: The Witch Hunter can run circles around him, the Hammerer's momentum can surprass his damage...

Yeah, I have to assume that the Black Guard has all sorts of annoying and effective taunt abilities, otherwise there'd be no way to get people to attack him and power up his Hatred. One possibility that might suit his character lore - Black Guards should get powerful attacks/debuffs against targets who aren't attacking him, representing the Black Guard stabbing people in the back who make the mistake of turning away from him.

[Blaze]

Yeah, I have to assume that the Black Guard has all sorts of annoying and effective taunt abilities, otherwise there'd be no way to get people to attack him and power up his Hatred.
One possibility that might suit his character lore - Black Guards should get powerful attacks/debuffs against targets who aren't attacking him, representing the Black Guard stabbing people in the back who make the mistake of turning away from him.

If they are implemented like that, playing one should be really fun.

If people ignore you, you get to punish them for it by crippling them and hurting them.
If people attack you, you get to punish them for it by using your Hate and really hurt them.
It's like a win-win situaton. :D

[Krulltak]

If they are implemented like that, playing one should be really fun.

If people ignore you, you get to punish them for it by crippling them and hurting them.
If people attack you, you get to punish them for it by using your Hate and really hurt them.
It's like a win-win situaton. :D


Which leads me to the assumption Black Guards may just be female only...........

>.>

<.<

[VeriusCarth]

From the video we've seen so far, it seems like a lot of the Swordmaster's tanking abilities are AOE and very combat-oriented. Wall of Darting Steel increases your chance to parry or disrupt attacks in a field of effect, while also hurting anyone inside that field. Vortex is a melee-ranged AOE that hits all the enemies in front of you and then knocks them back.

So, I would say that tank-wise, they probably rely more on abilities than straight-up armor.
Think of tanking as not just a straight up choice between armor and non-armor, but as a spectrum of different options:
- Ironbreakers: use superior armor to mitigate damage.
- Black Orcs: use debuffs to lower the damage that comes their way.
- KotBS: uses buffs to boost their ability to deal with damage.
- Chosen: uses Dark Gifts to buff themselves, debuff others. (I think, not sure).
- Swordmaster: uses parry + aoe effects to avoid damage/push damage-dealers out of range.

Assuming the next two High Elf / Dark Elf classes aren't simply amazing, I believe you've convinced me to play a High Elf Swordmaster.
Skills > Straight-up Armor, imo. More fun to play, at least.

Thanks for all your work getting all this straightened out for the rest of us, btw. :D

[logicalmayhem]

lol has anyone here watched all the interviews

he will be an avoidance tank who uses abilitys to avoid damage,

he seems that he will be able to do decent dmg or use his AP to protect his frends, i realy like the idear of being DPS OR a TANK depending on what i feel like

he shouldnt be as good a tank as say an ironbreaker or as good dps as a witch elf but he should do both fairly well

[Krulltak]

lol has anyone here watched all the interviews

he will be an avoidance tank who uses abilitys to avoid damage,

he seems that he will be able to do decent dmg or use his AP to protect his frends, i realy like the idear of being DPS OR a TANK depending on what i feel like

he shouldnt be as good a tank as say an ironbreaker or as good dps as a witch elf but he should do both fairly well


NO. NO NO NO.


If Mythic says he is a Heavy Tank class, then he is. THAT IS WHAT HE IS, THAT IS HIS JOB. He protects allies from harm.

Every class in WAR will have decent damage, but it is quite obvious the Light Tanks and Ranger classes will be the heaviest damage dealers.

[Vikingkingq]

Assuming the next two High Elf / Dark Elf classes aren't simply amazing, I believe you've convinced me to play a High Elf Swordmaster.
Skills > Straight-up Armor, imo. More fun to play, at least.

Thanks for all your work getting all this straightened out for the rest of us, btw. :D

Hey, no guarantees on upcoming HE/DE careers. They could introduce Shadow Warriors, White Lions, Shades, and Sorcs, and blow all our minds. It really does explain the "WAR as a total hobby" - with umpteen alts, who has time for other games?

No problem, I enjoy puzzling this over.

[fizzog]

i think they will be more focus on evasion and dodge parry etc


we shall have to wait and see i guess.

[Blaze]

Which leads me to the assumption Black Guards may just be female only...........

>.>

<.<

I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE!!!

*clears throat*

Yeah I know what you mean :D

[Infrantic]

i think they will be more focus on evasion and dodge parry etc


we shall have to wait and see i guess.

Erhm.. Swordmaster WILL be an evasive/parrying tank, and we won't have to wait and see, because it's confirmed :P

[Steel*Faith]

I'm happy to see a tank class that isn't stereotypical. I've been waiting to see a class that is evasive and focuses on agility. I'm liking the originality with generic classes (tanks, mages, ect) but doing them in a totally unique way.

[RockpapperWaagh]

They are the tank class

get over it.

[logicalmayhem]

tryna find the video and need to see al my own posts ignore this post lol

[BlackRose]

They are the tank class

get over it.

Shhh go heal something

[Crunchie]

It's in the latest Podcast.

Swordmaster = Tank

Debate over =)

[Gemini]

The debate was over after Leipzeg, actually, then they annouced the Swordmaster. But whatever, the podcast does confirm that info.