Im pretty sure wych elves are in after readin the DE profile

[havik110]

Is it just me or did they just specifically name a class in the game.

In battle, the ruthless warriors of Naggaorth blend Elven discipline with savagery and ferocity, for the patron deity of the Dark Elves is Kaela Mensha Khaine, the bloody-handed God and the Lord of Murder. Nowhere is this more evident that in the beautiful and deadly Witch Elves, who serve in the Temples of Khaine and revel in violence and bloodshed.

anyways My picks for DE are
Witch elves (female only)
Sorcerers (male and female although they should do female only imo)
Cold one Knights (I say keep them mounted full time)
And i cant think of a pure ranged because i think sorcerers are gonna be healing part time

[Ikego]

These guesses seem to make as much sense as any i've read. I'd honestly be shocked if witch elves weren't put in... they're in the DE profile, the trailor, a huge part of the lore; i don't think mythic could leave them out as playable class at this point. The only way I could see them leaving witch elves out, would be if they're going with a positional melee dps class (like an Assassin) or something of that nature. A Sorcerer of some sort is a must, they're elves. A heavy dark knight type class you know is going to be in there, after all each race has their tank. That covers a melee dps, magic caster, heavy fighter, the remainder is a support class. But who know's what support roles any of these classes could have as part of their roles.

I don't know nearly enough about Warhammer lore yet. That is to say; I know nothing beyond what i've read in posts and on the Mythic WAR website. What i do know is I'm extremely excited about the DE race. I trust from what i've seen so far that mythic is going to make some wicked classes with these guys. After playing as a Rebel in SWG, and Alliance in WoW... im so tired of being the good guy, time to get evil... damn evil.

[Black Razor]

Well I don't think the caption means a whole lot .. I mean they have a witch elf in the opening video but so is there a dwarf slayer .. and they arn't playable. That said I really do think its going to be witch elves also. The roles in my opinion will be ..

Tank: Either Cold One Knight or Black Guard .. its hard to say which..
Melee DPS: Witch Elves
Ranged DPS: Shade
Support/Caster: Sorceress

.. Yes there are other options for the melee DPS slot that would work as well .. but the Witch Elves are far more iconic and I really think its how they go. That said theres still a chance of something else .. again going back to the Slayers which are superbly iconic of the dwarfs and yet are excluded. Still the bit of Dark Elf info they have posted does make me hopeful Witches are the way.

[Vit]

I'd like to see beastmaster as a tank/pet guy in once. Hydra/manticore or other monster as a main tank (squig herder also has the choice between few different pets).

[Yavvy]

The odd part is that Slayers weren't included because they'd be 1-shot without armor... and Witch Elves don't wear more armor than them.

[Thoden Firehammer]

No that's only one reason, another was due to the fact that you couldn't show any form of advancement with the class becuase it doesn't wear armor, but mythic is really trying to make it a Class, they've even said they are.

[Yavvy]

No that's only one reason, another was due to the fact that you couldn't show any form of advancement with the class becuase it doesn't wear armor
Nor do Witch Elves.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

Nor do Witch Elves.
Ye, really curious how they want to do that

*waits for Xurre to comes in and throws his/her argikans(get it? shurikans+arguments!:))

[Xurré]

*waits for Xurre to comes in and throws his/her argikans(get it? shurikans+arguments!:))
Meh I've already proven dozens of times that there's a huge variety of armor advancement Witches could have. If people didn't listen then why would they now.


- Xurré

[checkthis5000]

Nor do Witch Elves.

You should look at some of the miniatures. I've posted links to several of them in other DE threads. There's a multitude of armor that they wear, and some of it covers them up quite well. I'm not going to link any here, just go to coolminornot.com and type into the search field Witch Elf, and see what comes up. There's a lot more options than no armor.

I must say after reading the profile I also think that Witch Elves will either be in as playable or will have a huge presence as NPCs.

[Ilairon]

Well, that would be difficult since they don't have any armor. :rolleyes: Unless you count a chain mail bikini, which is negligible - an added weight with no real protection provided. Some of them wear clothing, but that's not armor - that's clothing and it doesn't have an armor progression.

[Zappa]

Well, that would be difficult since they don't have any armor. :rolleyes: Unless you count a chain mail bikini, which is negligible - an added weight with no real protection provided. Some of them wear clothing, but that's not armor - that's clothing and it doesn't have an armor progression.


Khaine likes his wives scantily clad. <_<

[Noli me Tangere]

Well I don't think the caption means a whole lot .. I mean they have a witch elf in the opening video but so is there a dwarf slayer .. and they arn't playable. That said I really do think its going to be witch elves also. The roles in my opinion will be ..

Tank: Either Cold One Knight or Black Guard .. its hard to say which..
Melee DPS: Witch Elves
Ranged DPS: Shade
Support/Caster: Sorceress

.. Yes there are other options for the melee DPS slot that would work as well .. but the Witch Elves are far more iconic and I really think its how they go. That said theres still a chance of something else .. again going back to the Slayers which are superbly iconic of the dwarfs and yet are excluded. Still the bit of Dark Elf info they have posted does make me hopeful Witches are the way.

I think it's sort of sad the Sorceress is likely going to be bunched into exactly the role you make out there. Other than that, I think that's a pretty good guess of the line up, even if it's not one everyone agrees with. It doesn't seem out of the realm of reality, even if it turns out to be wrong.

I really, really, hope you're right about the Ranged DPS class.

[Black Razor]

The odd part is that Slayers weren't included because they'd be 1-shot without armor... and Witch Elves don't wear more armor than them.

Yeah but thats a totally invalid argument on there part. These are individuals that can and do slay things like trolls, dragons, and even daemons. The hard part to portraying them properly is that ..well .. there job is to DIE .. valiantly yes ..but its still suicide essentially. How do you translate that to a character class? Toughness can be explained in ways beyond simply armor. Its the same with the witches. They don't wear armor (which isn't true .. the do wear armor components .. arm and leg guards are common) ..but the drugs and there agility more then make up for it. Its not that they absorb damage .. its more that when they do get hit either they don't feel it .. or being the way they are .. it only fuels them on.

No that's only one reason, another was due to the fact that you couldn't show any form of advancement with the class because it doesn't wear armor, but mythic is really trying to make it a Class, they've even said they are.

I never understood this either. Look at the Slayer mini range .. they start out small mohawks, limited tattoos, etc. As they progress through the slayer ranks though there hair and beards become more elaborate (and darker red usually), there tattooing increases, more piercings, scars, etc.. More shiney armor isn't the only way to show advancement. Hopefully the realize this with the witches as well. And no it doesn't mean more skimpy .. but where as a young witch elf may have very plain boots, guards, and hair .. an elder witch may be far far more elaborate and still remain relatively... unarmored.

[Illya]

Actually, I think Yasmine, or whatever her name was, fought naked? She was the Bride of the Scourge in the Darkblade books. ;)

[Xurré]

I never understood this either. Look at the Slayer mini range .. they start out small mohawks, limited tattoos, etc. As they progress through the slayer ranks though there hair and beards become more elaborate (and darker red usually), there tattooing increases, more piercings, scars, etc.. More shiney armor isn't the only way to show advancement. Hopefully the realize this with the witches as well. And no it doesn't mean more skimpy .. but where as a young witch elf may have very plain boots, guards, and hair .. an elder witch may be far far more elaborate and still remain relatively... unarmored.
I thought so too to begin with (and to some degree still do).

But it could be that the way the game works it needs to be some clothing item, some armor piece you equip. Like, you need to be able to pick up a helmet and equip it; making that helmet grow your mohawk bigger would be a bit odd (and even stranger if you unequip it and your hair grows shorter again). Similar with tattoos, though I have seen games where tattoos are equipable.

The point is that you need to have these slots that you can put something in. And unless you let them swap tattoos and mohawks that wouldn't make a lot of sense for Slayers. Witches don't have that problem though since they do generally wear things for all the equipment slots (that you generally get in games).


Actually, I think Yasmine, or whatever her name was, fought naked? She was the Bride of the Scourge in the Darkblade books. ;)
I'm quite sure that Witch Elves can fight naked (in the lore); after all their armor doesn't really give them any protection anyway (not more than a mage's robes at least) so why wouldn't they. Particularly if you consider that they like feeling the warm blood flow over their skin.

Of course, in a (Teen-rated) game that wouldn't work. But luckily Witches can, and certainly do, wear a wide variety of armor (or clothing if you so wish) items giving them more than adequate cover. In fact, all of the Witch Elf miniatures (that have been officially released) are covering all their naughty bits and more. So judging purely from the miniatures one would expect them to be dressed. ;)


- Xurré

[Illya]

I'm quite sure that Witch Elves can fight naked (in the lore); after all their armor doesn't really give them any protection anyway (not more than a mage's robes at least) so why wouldn't they. Particularly if you consider that they like feeling the warm blood flow over their skin.

Of course, in a (Teen-rated) game that wouldn't work. But luckily Witches can, and certainly do, wear a wide variety of armor (or clothing if you so wish) items giving them more than adequate cover. In fact, all of the Witch Elf miniatures (that have been officially released) are covering all their naughty bits and more. So judging purely from the miniatures one would expect them to be dressed. ;)


- Xurré

Dressed, sure. But none of the minis can be classified as wearing 'protective armour'. The only one I've seen with anything resembling clothing is the hag at the cauldron of blood. And that outfit is pretty skimpy at that.

You keep saying Witch Elves can be armoured, and you've proven so, but what have you really proven? Sure, you could make more elaborate pauldrons. Add a loincloth in front of the metal thong. That's about it. The Witch Elf champion certainly isn't wearing any more armour than the rest of them.

Think on this, then. Lorewise, Witch Elves fight with a minimum of clothing. Because, as you say, and I agree, they like the feeling of blood on their bodies. But if you start adding armour and clothing, well, what do you end up with? The end result would be a dark elf with armour and dual swords, but certainly not in the style of a witch elf. Because witch elves wear a minimum of armour. Even the higher ranking ones.

Where do you get it from that Witch 'can and certainly do' wear a wide variety of armour? I can't seem to find it.

[Selendor]

I have to agree with Xurre on this point. It's not about the armor value, it's about whether or not they can equip items in these slots. The argument is about a lack of armor progression, not a lack of armor that they can wear aesthetically. Their lack of protective armor/defense would simply be offset by obscene DPS, debuffs, and possibly evasion based defense. Let's go over the slots.

Head? Check. Witch Elves can wear headdresses of sorts.
Neck? Check.
Shoulders? Check.
Cloak? Check.
Chest? Check. Bikini tops, corsets.
Legs? Check...ish? The "legs" slot didn't stop WoW from making 90% of "leggings" look like thongs or hotpants on Blood Elf females.
Feet? Check.
Gloves? Check.
Rings? Check.
Trinkets? Check.

Don't really see the problem. You can certainly do a progression for Witch Elves...where is this notion coming from that every class has to have heavy, protective armor? Bright Wizards, Shamans, and Squig Herders certainly don't, let alone Zealots (who by the way, run around half naked from what we've seen so far).

[Illya]

I have to agree with Xurre on this point. It's not about the armor value, it's about whether or not they can equip items in these slots. The argument is about a lack of armor progression, not a lack of armor that they can wear aesthetically. Their lack of protective armor/defense would simply be offset by obscene DPS, debuffs, and possibly evasion based defense.

That's all fine and dandy, and wasn't really my point, if you read my post properly.

Head? Check. Witch Elves can wear headdresses of sorts.
Neck? Check.
Shoulders? Check.
Cloak? Check.
Chest? Check. Bikini tops, corsets.
Legs? Check...ish? The "legs" slot didn't stop WoW from making 90% of "leggings" look like thongs or hotpants on Blood Elf females.
Feet? Check.
Gloves? Check.
Rings? Check.
Trinkets? Check.
Head: Like what? All they have is that tiara/half-helmet-ish thing.
Neck: I see one model with what looks like a choker with a skull. Necklaces are normally not shown on your character, I think you're clutching at straws with this one.
Shoulders: Granted.
Cloak: Only Witch Elf I could find with a cloak is the Hag in the Cauldron of Blood set. I won't grant you that one, because Corsair cloaks are way cooler.
Chest: Again, only the hag has a corset. The others all bikini tops. Very weak, at best.
Legs: Like I said, apart from thongs and loincloths, what else is there? And this is (hopefully) not a WoW clone.
Feet: They have boots. Sure, you could make the boots more ornate, but meh. Weak.
Gloves: I haven't seen any gloves, but I've seen bracers. That could work, I guess. Same as the boots, really.
Rings: Name a game that shows what kind of rings you're wearing? Again, way to weak.
Trinkets: See above.

Sorry, I'm not convinced.

Note: I'm talking purely appearance-wise here, in case you didn't get that. Not stat wise.

[V'raneth]

It seems to me that a Witch Elf's equipment progression would be an increase in richness, ornateness, and a distant third, coverage. I don't see why that's less acceptable than progression that just goes from big to bigger to biggest (as these things sometimes do).

[ggchan]

Well I've gotten into this bullpen late in the debate, but this is what I think and feel.

Yes, I would love to see witch elves playable, yes, they wear very little armor, but as said a dozen times thats easily delt with , with specializations in agility, and rage. These both could be lines that would give the W.E.'s a "passive" armor bonus, using dodge, and the ability to "embrace" pain, and damage. I mean thier god that they worship with thier very existance is Kaela Mesha Khaine. NUFF Said.

P.S. Ya, I probably spelled Khaines name wrong I know:P

Slayers, This would have been a wonderful class as a stuntie with ONE great exception, as stated above, they are ....SUICIDAL. How do you effectively work that into a class? Well I have a IDEA of how they MIGHT be able to do such, BUT god it would be a HUGE pain. I'm debating posting in where it might be viewed by the devs to see if they have anything they would add or say.

[Zoatibix]

Skimpy clothing can have a range of looks...go down town Saturday night if you dont' believe me.

Boots, for example can range from ankle length to thigh length and have a variety of patterns, decorations and ornamentation, heel lengths, toe shapes, buckles, bindings, studs, battle damage (seen on a couple of WE models), turn-overs, etc. That's just normal boots - look how ornate some of the other bits of fantasy armour are. Things don't have to be big to be ornate.

Hags (high level Witches) have been shown to wear gear other than a bra and yet you feel you can dismiss it out of hand. The Corsair Champion is a cool model with his cloak round his face...I won't dismiss that as a potential look because it is just one model.

Loincloths are shown in several styles on the Witches - plain square, long thin, multipart, studs or not. I wouldnt be surprised by Witches ending up with loincloths over their bums - heck even microskirts wouldnt' surprise me.

If Corsairs make it they aren't going to be locked to the exact armour the models have. It is ridiculous to suggest Witches would be. Both would end up with armour heavily influenced by the models and GW art.

[Ilairon]

I'm not aghast at the idea of adding stuff that seems plausible - witch elves in khaitans, cloaks, or whatever, but...it is irksome that Witch Elf fans invent stuff for their class as though it's fine and spring into attack mode on anyone who invents anything for any other class that competes with theirs. And while I'm not terribly aghast at the idea of giving them clothing that's not necessarily on the model, I think the idea behind their skimpy outfits is three-fold:
They want to look seductive. If you can distract your enemy it makes them easier to attack, and the seductive qualities of a female elf work well on humans and elves alike.
They like the feel of warm blood on their bodies. Witch Elves enjoy the sensations of battle and they want to feel it to its fullest - the pleasure and euphoria of whetting your blades on an opponent.
They believe that Khaine will protect them and see them through to victory. Likewise, they feel blessed by the Lord of Murder and are vane enough to show it. The more armor they wear - the more clothing they wear - means the less they are devoting to Khaine and the more they're devoting to themselves. It also shows their lack of faith in Khaine.I could see them wearing more clothing outside war, when they perform ceremonial roles and need to fit better into Druchii society - plus, they're not bloodletting then. But I see the exact opposite during combat and wartime: they should want as little clothing and armor as possible. Clothing and armor not only needlessly weigh them down and deny the power of Khaine to protect them, they also admit their own personal weakness. And if there's anything Druchii don't like, if there's anything they abhor and disdain it's weakness. For the strong, indoctrinated, and fanatical women that form the ranks of Witch Elves this would seem even more the case.



Plus, clothing and armor would restrict their senses, dulling the sensations of combat, which would seem enigma to the Witch Elves. Besides which, we're comparing the Witch Elf to classes like a Corsair, Assassin, Executioner, Fell Blade, or Beastmaster. Those classes have lots of armor and clothing, well-documented too whereas the Witch elf is 99% skin and 1% metal or cloth. Admittedly that's exaggerated there, but it's not that far from the truth and the point is you can do a lot more with armor and clothing progression than you can with skin progression.

[Zoatibix]

What are we making up? A lot of the current Witch Elves are have wrist to elbow length bracers, big shoulder guards, and boots almost up to their crotches. The models show a wide variety of lioncloth types.

The Hag model is wearing less revealing gear. She is a 'high level' Witch and she is on the battlefield. I didn't make that up.

I also pointed out that the basic* Corsair look could be expanded upon, too. I can see no reason why this could not be so. The basic model provides the theme or starting point in both cases.

*(basic as in a starting point, not basic as in boring or bland in case you are looking to be insulted)

Please don't dismiss my arguments as one sided when I have quite clearly stated that the argument works for both Corsairs and Witch Elves.

Looking seductive doesn't work on Zombies, Skaven, Lizardmen, Orcs, etc. Once you've killed enough enemies their blood will soak through the cloth and their faces are exposed all the time. I don't think Witch Elves are relying on a bit of skin to confuse their enemy. It's more about self-image, if anything.

I don't think they rely on Khaine's protection either. Once they are frenzied all they care about is killing the enemy.

I'd also like to see you tell a Cold One Knight that heavy armour is a sign of weakness...

And why bother throwing in a percentage that you admit is exageration? It's nearer 70% for a lot of figures.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

I'd also like to see you tell a Cold One Knight that heavy armour is a sign of weakness...

ill leave the rest of the arguments to soem1 else, but this is totally different.

a cold one knight...isn't 'married' to khaine.
he didnt ment that having armor was a sign of weakness. it was a sign of weakness for witch elves
They believe that Khaine will protect them and see them through to victory. Likewise, they feel blessed by the Lord of Murder and are vane enough to show it. The more armor they wear - the more clothing they wear - means the less they are devoting to Khaine and the more they're devoting to themselves. It also shows their lack of faith in Khaine.
right there

[Kellaris]

Meh I've already proven dozens of times that there's a huge variety of armor advancement Witches could have. If people didn't listen then why would they now.

- Xurré


"Proven".... it is a bold claim ;)

One may think that if You have red bra and then You change it to black bra then this is progression. Well, the same can be told about slayer's shoes.
Shoes and bra can be nicer and more impressive. But this doesn't mean progression.
Progression means Armour Class growth. High level armour looks better to show everyone that it is better. Everyone wants to look cool. But armour slots are meant to give some protection. Better protection means progress.
If Tier 4 bra gives You nothing, You can tell that You prefer Your red Tier 1 bra.
(And I don't belive Mythic will do something like 500 witches wearing "bra of evasion +15")

One may say that lack of armour can be balanced by defensive skills.
But this brings unbalanced classes. Why?
If one don't have to care about armour, he/she may spend more efford to get something elde (better weapons for example).
Marauder needs to care about weapon and armour, while Witch care about weapon only. This is not fair.
And this is why it was hard to implement Slayer.
And Witches are in the same situation.
Remember that decisions about all playable classes were made in one time.
Only revealing them to public is so annoying long process.

I think Mythic finally will come with some idea. In one of future expansions.

[Xurré]

It seems to me that a Witch Elf's equipment progression would be an increase in richness, ornateness, and a distant third, coverage. I don't see why that's less acceptable than progression that just goes from big to bigger to biggest (as these things sometimes do).
And material... don’t forget material. Unlike just about any other class Witch Elves are unique in that they can have much more progression of material used for their ‘armor’, because it’s not supposed to protect them anyway (it wouldn’t make sense for a Chosen to start out with cloth armor) and doesn’t cover them completely either (a Bright Wizard would look odd if progressing to plate robes).

As such I think the cloth→leather→chain→plate progression (roughly) for the four tiers would work very, very well and be quite obvious.


3. They believe that Khaine will protect them and see them through to victory. Likewise, they feel blessed by the Lord of Murder and are vane enough to show it. The more armor they wear - the more clothing they wear - means the less they are devoting to Khaine and the more they're devoting to themselves. It also shows their lack of faith in Khaine.
I don’t believe this is entirely true. Witches don’t think Khaine will protect them, quite the opposite; they’re quite well aware that Khaine is a capricious deity and can drop tem at a moment’s notice. Take for example this quote from the dark elf army book:

She sat back up, squeezing her thighs tighter against the dead soldier. Her long, thin fingers delicately traced arcane runes in blood across his broad chest. Khaine would reward her well for this sacrifice and tonight she would revel in his gift of eternal beauty. She felt herself suffused by the joy of the moment, rapture filling her mind. It lasted only a few heartbeats though, and was soon replaced by the grim thought that Khaine was a capricious god and tomorrow it might be her that was beneath the sacrificial blade.
You marry a guy and what do you get...? :p

Khaine rewards those who give him the best sacrifices. And if to do that would mean to wear more covering and more protective armor (which I don’t think is necessarily needed) then I don’t see, on this point, why they wouldn’t.


"Proven".... it is a bold claim ;)
Perhaps, but I think I’ve got the right to make it. Over the months I’ve shown several times (that’s “shown” instead of “claimed”, as in showing various images and miniatures and whatnot) that they do have a wide variety in the things that they wear already shown (even ignoring that it’s easy to come up with additional options that still fall within the same theme). I think in that that I’ve proven that they, at the very least visually speaking, definitely could have armor progression.

Progression means Armour Class growth.
I don’t agree with that. Progression means “advancement to an improved or more developed state”. For a class which relies a lot on the protection of their armor this would mean indeed that the things they wear have to improve they armour class. But for other classes that don’t rely much on armour (like wizards and Witch Elves) this means that the armor has to help improve other aspects. For instance, one could argue that higher tier armor for Witch Elves would improve their mobility and thus help increase their defense that way.

On top of that I think that it is highly probably that higher level armor will include better and better magical properties, making that a vital way in which one would want to improve as well.

But let’s get back to Armour Class for a moment. I’m fairly certain that Witch Elves will get better armour class from higher-level equipment. This is not so much because anyone really believes that it protects them better (however tempting it might be to think that “plate” protects better than “cloth”), but has far more to do with the abstraction of Armour Class itself. You see, armour class itself doesn’t really make sense. Does a Chosen, who starts out with full platemail, really get that much better protected? (Does the plate get thicker or something and do we really believe that it protects them that much better?) Or even clearer perhaps is when looking at wizards, some have argued that their robes get thicker and thus protect better, but does that really make any more sense than changing from a leather bikini to a chain one? It is important to keep in mind that Armour Class is an abstraction; it’s a fake construct invented to make a game work, just as hitpoints and damage and just about any game system.

You can’t fault Witch Elves for the base system being unrealistic to begin with.


In short, Witch Elves do have more than enough variety in their potential appearances to make visual progression work, and because of how game systems work it’s also very easy to imagine progression in function. So I don’t see why there would be a problem in progression for them any more than there has to be for any of the other classes.


- Xurré

[Illya]

So you say, Xurre, but again you simply state you've "proven it over the past few months" but fail to show any evidence of having done so.

Apart from the Hag mini, I haven't been able to find anything. You obviously have. Show me.

[Kellaris]

On top of that I think that it is highly probably that higher level armor will include better and better magical properties, making that a vital way in which one would want to improve as well.
- Xurré

You mean Magical Bra of Evasion +15. Pleease......;)


But let’s get back to Armour Class for a moment. I’m fairly certain that Witch Elves will get better armour class from higher-level equipment. This is not so much because anyone really believes that it protects them better (however tempting it might be to think that “plate” protects better than “cloth”), but has far more to do with the abstraction of Armour Class itself. You see, armour class itself doesn’t really make sense. Does a Chosen, who starts out with full platemail, really get that much better protected? (Does the plate get thicker or something and do we really believe that it protects them that much better?)
- Xurré

Yes we do. Armour may be thicker (becouse tier 4 chosen is stronger and can carry more). Armour may be better designed (thicker on locations where he is beeng hit most often). Armour may be made from better material. Armour is like any other human design. Like a car. Can be standard, can be better, can be the best. Better cars are not better, becouse of some magic.



Or even clearer perhaps is when looking at wizards, some have argued that their robes get thicker and thus protect better, but does that really make any more sense than changing from a leather bikini to a chain one? It is important to keep in mind that Armour Class is an abstraction; it’s a fake construct invented to make a game work, just as hitpoints and damage and just about any game system.
- Xurré

In most cases, You use robes becouse they give You different bonuses.
But it also can be made by better design. More pockets for components, better placement for components. Better material (not only easier to wear but maybe something that makes the flow of winds of magic easier.

Then. When You make all that mundane improvements, You may think about enchanting an item and by enchantin You gain another dimension of possible improvements.

And I really don't think that there is a difference for witch elves between silk bra and chainmail bra.



You can’t fault Witch Elves for the base system being unrealistic to begin with.
- Xurré
Of course it is unrealistic. We have muschrooms from outer space running between us and chopping our enemies. This is why we call it fantasy.
An I'm not trying to fault Witch Elves for anything.
I'm trying (without too much hope for success) to convince some people and explain them that implementing Witch Elves to this game is much more trouble, that one may think.
Especially if You want all classes to be balanced.

Fact is (even in the game) that big armour gives big protection and no armour gives no protection.
And a class may not need protection, but Melee classes tend to need some.
Especially in MMORPG. In WFB, they may use "kill quick or be killed philosophy". But this is not playable in MMO.
And I really hope one day Mythic will find the way to implement Witches to the game.
But if they didn't find the way to implement slayers, I can see no difference here...




In short, Witch Elves do have more than enough variety in their potential appearances to make visual progression work, and because of how game systems work it’s also very easy to imagine progression in function.
- Xurré

Clearly, I have missed some podcast or something. Can You give me some reference to information "how THIS game system works" ??


So I don’t see why there would be a problem in progression for them any more than there has to be for any of the other classes.
- Xurré

So, why they didn't implement Slayers?
Trust me there is: "more than enough variety in their potential appearances to make visual progression work, and because of how game systems work it’s also very easy to imagine progression in function." Like Pants of Evasion +15. Tatoo of Evasion +15...

[Heno]

Working on this Logic, most of the Units can't be in, hell most models only have two looks of armour on a good day. Anything more is extra made upfor the game or taken from conversions.

Exectuiones, Dark Reavers (Hell those two only have one kind of model), Corsairs, Warriors, Beastmasters, Shades, Sorceress to some extent...they all only have one look. Guess Dark Elves won't make it in at all since they don't have 40 different armour sets on the models right we're pretty much down to Cold One Knights being the only ones to get in?

Use your imagination guys, that what conversion is all about, and god knows there's enough Witch Elf conversions with progression of awesome (Yet fairly airy :D) costumes.

They'll do the same for Witch Elves, even if it does mean the Ormental Style Hag Armour for Higher Tiers.

[Hatemonger]

http://www.coolminiornot.com/155976

Tier 4 or 3?

[Xurré]

So you say, Xurre, but again you simply state you've "proven it over the past few months" but fail to show any evidence of having done so.

Apart from the Hag mini, I haven't been able to find anything. You obviously have. Show me.
I spent a good hour or so searching through my subscribed threads, most of them having at least ten pages of posts, going through them page by page and scaling numerous walls of text to tract something down for you. Eventually I found this post at least:

Witch Elves on the other hand do have armor. Allow me to illustrate with some images.

Standard (old) Witch Elves (http://greywolf.critter.net/images/ahq/minis/gallery/witch-elf-2.jpg)
Witch Elf Command (http://www.hillcity-comics.com/role_play/gw/8513C.gif)
Dark Elf Witch (http://miniature-painting.net/Warhammer/GW_darkelf_witch_right.jpg)
Witch Elf drawing (http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammer/brief-guide/images/witch-elf-art.jpg)
Cauldron of Blood (http://www.hillcity-comics.com/role_play/gw/whf_9313.gif)
More (old) Witch Elves) (http://dig.anthro.niu.edu/codex/gamesworkshop/gw8513b.jpg)

The Cauldron of Blood is interesting in that the Witch on the left is clearly different (more ‘advanced’) than the ones on the right. The last picture shows difference in cloth and chainmail. The Command picture shows slightly more advanced Witches and the “Dark Elf Witch” shows something completely different, yet still Witch (though it could be that she’s actually technically a sorceress it still works well for a Witch too).

It’s not that hard to imagine that you can vary the loincloth, the bodice, the boots, the shoulder pads, the headdress and even the hair itself to get a variety of styles and armors.
I’m fairly certain that I made another post later along the same lines (though maybe I didn’t add any links to it, I can’t recall), but I couldn’t find it. Give me a break there please, have you any idea how many Witch Elf-related posts I’ve made over the months?

Since I didn’t find the second one and that first one is fairly brief I’m working on a post going in great detail into their various armor appearances. But it’s going to take a bit of time, so have some patience with me on that one.



You mean Magical Bra of Evasion +15. Pleease......;)
No need to beg, there’s a very good chance that you’ll get it without begging (though I didn’t mean “magical Bra of Evasion +15” as such).

Why is that? Because armor that doesn’t do anything but increase armor rating is incredibly boring stat-wise. So you’re likely to get armors with various secondary effects, and most of those are likely to be magical (as it’s the easiest explanation for why they have those effects).

And that’s not just “Evasion +15”, but a wide variety of (possible) properties such as elemental protections, increased skills, healing properties, spell resistances, increased stats, etc as well as the possibility of special items and added, trigger-able spell effects. Again, I’m not saying that they’ll use all (or even any) of those, but they have to do something with armor other than just increase AC. And whatever they do along these lines for other classes they can just as easily do for Witches as well.

Yes we do. Armour may be thicker (becouse tier 4 chosen is stronger and can carry more). Armour may be better designed (thicker on locations where he is beeng hit most often). Armour may be made from better material. Armour is like any other human design. Like a car. Can be standard, can be better, can be the best. Better cars are not better, becouse of some magic.
You’re kidding. You actually believe that it works like that? Well, if you can believe that the abstraction works for the other classes then you can believe that it works for the Witches as well.

In most cases, You use robes becouse they give You different bonuses.
Bingo!

But it also can be made by better design. More pockets for components, better placement for components. Better material (not only easier to wear but maybe something that makes the flow of winds of magic easier.
So, any reason why something along those lines couldn’t be done for Witch Elf armor? I don’t think so.

And I really don't think that there is a difference for witch elves between silk bra and chainmail bra.
If you can believe that there’s a difference between wool robes and cotton robes (for example) then you can believe that there’s a difference between leather bikinis and plate bikinis.

I'm trying (without too much hope for success) to convince some people and explain them that implementing Witch Elves to this game is much more trouble, that one may think.
Especially if You want all classes to be balanced.
Then explain what those troubles are and we can discuss it instead of treating Witches different from everything else because for some reason you feel Witches should be “realistic” and the rest doesn’t have to be (because you can suspend your disbelief there).

Fact is (even in the game) that big armour gives big protection and no armour gives no protection.
And a class may not need protection, but Melee classes tend to need some.
“tend” being the operative word here. Witch Elves aren’t your garden-variety melee class.

On a side-note, Armor Class in various games (in D&D for example if I’m not mistaken) tends to be a combination of how well you’re protected against damage and how well you’re able to avoid damage; it tends to be a combination of armor value and dodge skills. If you can’t believe that higher-level armor gives Witches better protection then perhaps you can believe that it helps them dodge more effectively (or a combination of it; they might be more able to get a better armored part in the way of whatever is trying to hit them).

Clearly, I have missed some podcast or something. Can You give me some reference to information "how THIS game system works" ??
I didn’t say how this game works; but until you show me a podcast otherwise you also can’t prove that it doesn’t work that way. It’s quite possible that they do things differently in this game, but in that case it’s also quite possible that they do them differently such that it still works for Witch Elves (particularly if they’re planning to include them). But until we know how all we can do is work from theorizing from how other games have generally done these things in the past.

So, why they didn't implement Slayers?
Trust me there is: "more than enough variety in their potential appearances to make visual progression work, and because of how game systems work it’s also very easy to imagine progression in function." Like Pants of Evasion +15. Tatoo of Evasion +15...
From what I understand there were two reasons for why they didn’t include Slayers. First is because Slayers are suicidal and thus would pose some problems in gameplay (Slayers might want to die, but I bet players wouldn’t be so happy with it). Secondly is because they couldn’t get slayers to work within their armor system; they couldn’t find enough armor varieties for them. Now, I agree that they might’ve found something with varying Slayer tattoos and mohawks and such, but you also have to admit that it’d be really strange if you can just un-equip your tattoos and hair for another style. And that also leaves the problem that tattoos don’t show visible differences in silhouette.


- Xurré

[Kellaris]

Working on this Logic, most of the Units can't be in, hell most models only have two looks of armour on a good day. Anything more is extra made upfor the game or taken from conversions.



You misunderstand me terribly.
What I was trying to say is that look means nothing.
There may be 80 customizations of Witch. And there can be 80 customizations of Slayer.
But Slayer is not playable character.
You know, in MMO when You get better armour, it is better becouse it gives better protecton (generalizing here). In most cases it looks better (or more impressive) but this is not he point. Point is, that it protects You better.
When You get a better bra, it is better becouse it looks more impressive. And nothing else.
The same situation with Slayer's pants. And tatoos.

Visual side of advancing is a matter of artists. They will always find a way.
But behind that, there is character balancing problem. Which is much harder to solve.
I'm not saying it is impossible. But Mythic have not found any good way of implementing slayers. This is fact. One may dream that Witch is different than slayer and it will be in game. But if this difference really exist, this would mean that chainmal bikini works in this game. That would be sad.

[Hatemonger]

It worked for Warhammer for years, what's so offensive about it working in this game?

[Selendor]

Bikinis. Serious business.

[Kellaris]

No need to beg, there’s a very good chance that you’ll get it without begging (though I didn’t mean “magical Bra of Evasion +15” as such).
Why is that? Because armor that doesn’t do anything but increase armor rating is incredibly boring stat-wise. So you’re likely to get armors with various secondary effects, and most of those are likely to be magical (as it’s the easiest explanation for why they have those effects).
- Xurré

Oh Yes. SECONDARY effects. For armour, it is secondary effect. For bra it is the only effect.



You’re kidding. You actually believe that it works like that? Well, if you can believe that the abstraction works for the other classes then you can believe that it works for the Witches as well.
- Xurré

Abstraction?? Do You really belive that Ferrari are faster than Fiat XXX becouse they are magically enchanted?? Trust me, they are not. They are better designed, better made.
Pure mundane technology.



So, any reason why something along those lines couldn’t be done for Witch Elf armor? I don’t think so.
- Xurré
I don't think that Witch Elf need pockets for components. What they need is some sort of protection against nastu Asur arrows. Which cannot be accomplished by better construction of bra. (not counting distraction for shooter).



If you can believe that there’s a difference between wool robes and cotton robes (for example) then you can believe that there’s a difference between leather bikinis and plate bikinis.
- Xurré
Of course I do. If sorceress is going to wear this. Becouse plate stuff make spellcasting harder. But plate bra will not protect You against Swordmaster blows. Nor will cotton robe. But sorceress is sopposed to run from swordmaster. Witch is supposed to engage him.



Then explain what those troubles are and we can discuss it instead of treating Witches different from everything else because for some reason you feel Witches should be “realistic” and the rest doesn’t have to be (because you can suspend your disbelief there).
- Xurré
If someone is treating Witches different from everything else, it is not me.
I say:Heavy armour - Heavy protection
Light armour - Light protection
No armour - No protection

You say: Heavy armour - Heavy protection
Light armour - Light protection
No armour - Magic protection

Who is unfair here??


“tend” being the operative word here. Witch Elves aren’t your garden-variety melee class.
- Xurré
And Just a few sentences before, You have accused me that I'm treating Witches different from everything else.



On a side-note, Armor Class in various games (in D&D for example if I’m not mistaken) tends to be a combination of how well you’re protected against damage and how well you’re able to avoid damage; it tends to be a combination of armor value and dodge skills. If you can’t believe that higher-level armor gives Witches better protection then perhaps you can believe that it helps them dodge more effectively (or a combination of it; they might be more able to get a better armored part in the way of whatever is trying to hit them).
- Xurré
So, You say: Witch in silk bra will move faster than Witch in plate bra, so she willdodge better
And in the same time You say. "Thicker armour will not give better protection. It is abstraction"
You disagree with every single sentence of my post only tu use my arguments as Yours a moment later. This is not a discussion, this is a contest of who can shout louder.



I didn’t say how this game works; but until you show me a podcast otherwise you also can’t prove that it doesn’t work that way.

Originally Posted by Xurré http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/images/WHA/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?p=404461#post404461)
In short, Witch Elves do have more than enough variety in their potential appearances to make visual progression work, and because of how game systems work it’s also very easy to imagine progression in function.

- Xurré
This is You who claim that it is easy to imagine sth becouse of how game works.
Don't turn this up side down. I don't need to prove anything.
You are trying to convince someone to Your point of view. And You claim that Your point of view is based on facts. But You have no facts at all.




From what I understand there were two reasons for why they didn’t include Slayers. First is because Slayers are suicidal and thus would pose some problems in gameplay (Slayers might want to die, but I bet players wouldn’t be so happy with it). Secondly is because they couldn’t get slayers to work within their armor system;
- Xurré

Maybe this is becouse Slayers wear no armour (just like Witches). When someone is talking about "system" I would rather think that he/she is talking about mechanics, not visual stuff.

[Kellaris]

It worked for Warhammer for years, what's so offensive about it working in this game?

It is not ofensive, but Warhammer is TT game. Everything works different there.

And how exactly it works for warhammer??
From my experience, 75% of Witches is killed by shooting before they get into combat.
Usually it is enough to brake enemy regiment.
But in MMO, You don't want to have 75% chance of dying befor combat begins.
Well, I don't.

[Zoatibix]

Okay...you just said that this is not the TT game...then made a direct correllation between Witch Elves getting shot up in the TT game and the same happening in the MMO.

[Thrakkesh]

It is not ofensive, but Warhammer is TT game. Everything works different there.

And how exactly it works for warhammer??
From my experience, 75% of Witches is killed by shooting before they get into combat.
Usually it is enough to brake enemy regiment.
But in MMO, You don't want to have 75% chance of dying befor combat begins.
Well, I don't.

Not only to go off topic, but I have to go and be kind of a jerk as well:

You're using them poorly. If they're being focused on shooting it's because you don't have enough threats on the table or aren't using terrain to your advantage. (Bottelnecks, intervening terrain, off-flanks) or you don't have anything to disrupt shooting lines (Shades/Dark Riders/Harpies etc) which are on top of shooting lines by the second turn. I've seen them used quite artfully and, against the right army be totally devastating. (And a lot of armies are crap at shooting and Witch Elves seriously come into their own. Hi2u Vampire Counts/Orcs/Skaven.)

And if you 'die before you get into combat 75% of the time' as a witch elf in an MMO--well, you're probably not using them right either.

[Xurré]

Kellaris, let my try and explain myself without going deeper into quote-land.

The way I see it when something gives “no protection” then, in game terms, that tends to translate to “low armor class”. Note, not no armor class, but low armor class. Generally speaking even cloth wizard’s robes tend to have some kind of armor class. This is likely because of what you pointed out; armor in games need some kind of general, steady progression so that people will want to continually improve their armor. As such, it’s quite likely that even the not-really-protecting chain-mail bikinis will get an armor class value of some kind that can improve with higher levels. That’s part of the game abstraction of armor class.

Secondly, you’ve noted that wizard’s robes can have secondary effects along the lines of making things easier for wizards. Other kinds of armor (the kind that do offer protection) also tend to get secondary effects (a certain type of armor can be particularly resistant to piercing kind of damage or something). Along the same lines Witch Elf armor will likely also get non-magical secondary effects (like armor that allows them to move better or allows them to hide additional poisons/drugs; thus giving bonuses to those skills). So here too Witch Elf armor can have functional progression.

And finally, it’s quite likely that all kinds of armor will get, at higher level at least, various magical properties as well. Tier 4 wizard’s robes, tier 4 chaos chosen armor, tier 4 squig herder armor even are all likely to be magical. And along the same lines I fully expect tier 4 Witch Elf armor to be things like armor blessed by Khaine (and thus magical), armor dipped in magical blood, armor enspelled maybe even by long-dead Sorceresses with dark magic (despite the enmity between the two cults), etc. So here too you’re quite likely to see functional progression.

Of course, it’s quite possible that Mythic will find some other way in which armor works, maybe even have some professions (like the more caster-y professions) that don’t get any armor class. But in these cases they’ll still have to find a way to make functional progression work and I’m convinced that if it works for those classes then it will also work for Witch Elves. Even if they somehow make a very realistic armor simulation with precise to-hit locations and such it would still work at least to some degree, unless they also include precise friction simulation or such. And it’s very, very unlikely that they’ll go to that amount of detail.

As such it seems to me that there’s every reason to believe that, if Witch Elves are included, they’ll have little problem giving them functional armor progression. And with the visual armor progression there shouldn’t be much of any problem with Witch Elf armor.


- Xurré

[Triloq]

A couple things....

Firstly, I'm no master of lore and have only really looked into elf lore as well as the Trollslayer series, but aren't chaos chosen fused to their armor? As in, it's no longer interchangeable. Wouldn't this mean that the chaos chosen would only have to worry about a weapon as well? I doubt it, since I'm assuming chosen will also have to look for new armor despite the lore.

Secondly, people keep getting angry about the witch elf supporters making stuff up for witch elves, though I haven't seen much of this. These people consistantly attack witch elves which puts the supporters on the defensive.

It seems to me that the witch elf supporters are arguing FOR witch elfs rather than AGAINST the other class choices, while those arguing AGAINST witch elves aren't really arguing FOR another class. This is not to say that they don't state what they want in the slot, but that the majority of their argument seems to be focused against witch elves than for their class. This might be because witch elf supporters are on the defensive, and any let up on the offense will cause in a reverse.

It seems that a majority of the people against witch elves aren't even overtly interested in what goes in the slot, as long as it isn't a witch elf. Why? What is so inherantly wrong with the witch elf that you would argue against it so vigirously while not really supporting what you want in the slot?

Anyways, all I'm trying to say, is that rather than attacking eachothers choices for the slot, why not open up threads for people who support the different classes to come together and add ideas for the class that could be, rather than bashing the class you don't want. Unfortunately, the few attempts at this type of thread I have seen have always erupted into anti-[insert class being supported here] discussion...argument.

Not sure about anyone else, but I'd rather read what each of the claments has to offer rather than reading what people have against the clament. The one benefit to these discussions is that people here seem to be developing an intimnent relationship, almost like sibling rivalry.

[Zoatibix]

The Corsairs do have several genuine supporters. And they have made their own arguments (included suggestions for the Corsair Class) on a number of occasions.

I think it perfectly fair for people to put counter arguments against a class. If one's arguments aren't robust enough for such critque they shouldn't be posted (however every idea should be considered rather than being shot down simply for the sake of it)

However there is a certain 'anything but Witch Elves' mindset... I have a strong suspicion that this actually a 'please not those awful people from WoW' mindset.

[Hatemonger]

You do have to admit though...if WE's aren't in, then that trailer was pretty much just useless. I mean, the tekken-esque aspect didn't really capture the feeling of a massive war and now it has two classes that aren't even in the game?

Good job. :p

[Kellaris]

Okay...you just said that this is not the TT game...then made a direct correllation between Witch Elves getting shot up in the TT game and the same happening in the MMO.

You are right here.
My point is, that when You play WFB, You can afford 75% casualties.
And it is not good in MMO.

[Kellaris]

Not only to go off topic, but I have to go and be kind of a jerk as well:
You're using them poorly. If they're being focused on shooting it's because you don't have enough threats on the table or aren't using terrain to your advantage.

Witch elves are primary targets for shooting becouse they are one of biggest threats.
And mostly, becouse they are easiest threat to shoot at.
My sparring-partners learn quickly and know what to shoot to have best effect.

A couple things....
Firstly, I'm no master of lore and have only really looked into elf lore as well as the Trollslayer series, but aren't chaos chosen fused to their armor? As in, it's no longer interchangeable. Wouldn't this mean that the chaos chosen would only have to worry about a weapon as well? I doubt it, since I'm assuming chosen will also have to look for new armor despite the lore.

Of course they will. Becouse armour gives protection. Better armour gives better protection. Better bra gives better look.



Secondly, people keep getting angry about the witch elf supporters making stuff up for witch elves, though I haven't seen much of this. These people consistantly attack witch elves which puts the supporters on the defensive.

Please, look at the title of this thread. It have not been made by someone angry about WE supporters.




It seems to me that the witch elf supporters are arguing FOR witch elfs rather than AGAINST the other class choices, while those arguing AGAINST witch elves aren't really arguing FOR another class. This is not to say that they don't state what they want in the slot, but that the majority of their argument seems to be focused against witch elves than for their class. This might be because witch elf supporters are on the defensive, and any let up on the offense will cause in a reverse.

My experience on Warhammer Alliance is quite short, but I have seen many, many arguments for Corsairs, Executioners and Assasin.
All arguments have been written some time ago.
But WE supporters are most active here. Also, some of them tend to repeat same arguments again and again.
Try to look on History of threads:
I'm sure WE will be in
WE visual progression
no female chosen = WE
Lot of threads made by WE supporters. They are not on the defensive. On the contrary.;)



Anyways, all I'm trying to say, is that rather than attacking eachothers choices for the slot, why not open up threads for people who support the different classes to come together and add ideas for the class that could be, rather than bashing the class you don't want. Unfortunately, the few attempts at this type of thread I have seen have always erupted into anti- discussion...argument.

It is just becouse most of us don't want to repeat what was already written before.
Also, this thread is about WE only. Who cares that I'm Corsair supporter (and former assasin supporter - Xurre have convinced me to change my mind). We are talking about WE here....



However there is a certain 'anything but Witch Elves' mindset... I have a strong suspicion that this actually a 'please not those [I]awful people from WoW' mindset.

I have to confirm "anything but WE" mindset. But this is not about WoW.
1. From all possible Druchii classes this is the last I would like to play. Gender restriction matter. But I'm going to play Shade or tank so this is minor issue.
2. It is really hard job to make this class playable and balanced. I feel that becouse of my personal gamedesigning and gaming experience. And I'm trying to explain that . In most cases unsuccesfully :(.

[Zoatibix]

And to convert that into an MMORPG - if your DPSer gets killed you have to ask:

1. Is it her fault? Did she run out on her own and get killed, rather than stick to the plan.

or

2. Is it the fault of the Tank or Support/Healer for not protecting her or drawing fire in accordance with the plan

or

3. Should we make a plan?

[Xurré]

2. It is really hard job to make this class playable and balanced. I feel that becouse of my personal gamedesigning and gaming experience. And I'm trying to explain that . In most cases unsuccesfully :(.
You're right in that you're unsuccessful in that; so far I don't think you've shown any playability and balance issues (and I'm not saying this as an attack, I'm saying this because I would like to see you make it understandable for us so that, together, perhaps we can come to a solution or alley your worries).

You're not the only one with game design and game playing experience though. ;)


- Xurré

[Kellaris]

You're right in that you're unsuccessful in that; so far I don't think you've shown any playability and balance issues.
- Xurré

I would prefer not to talk about playability, becouse I belive this is too personal matter.
Balancing.
I have to admit, I haven't played WoW nor DAoC. All I will write here is based on L2 experience and may be inaccurate to DAoC/WAR system.
Armour matter.
I strongly disaggree with opinion that high tier armour have to be magically enhanced.
I belive it is much better, when all armours are non magical. Then we may enhance them with magic at our will. Each armour may have different options of possible enchantments. Then, we have much more customization options.
Also, I think in Warhammer world magic items are very rare. Warhammer world is dark grim and unavailability of magic is one of the reasons of that.
Only greatest heroes wield magic weapons and they are rare.
But, I was supposed to talk about balancing.
Most propably, armour will work by decreasing amount of damage dealt by other player or enviroment. (All numbers below are my imagination only)
For example heavy armour will decrease this amount by 80%.
Then we have Witch without any physical armour. With a small amount of hit points (like all elves). Then we have 2 options.
1. From the very first level, we must give her some protective magic
2. Make her able to kill so fast, that she will not be killed by lvl1 monster.
3. Give her defensive skills
Point 1 is pathetic. In my opinion, lvl 1 character is not hero and she does not deserve magic.
Point 2 is obvious PvP disbalancing. If choppa have bigger toughness and better armour, she would need to kill much much faster to balance that. An she will be top priority target in every pvp (and will die quickly, becouse of no protection)
Point 3 bring us situation when she does not need armour to protect herself, and this mess with economy balance (She need not to make efford to gain armour and have more time /resources to gain other stuff). Also, I don't think WE supporters would like her to have defensive skills instead of offensive.

Exactly the same things can be said about slayers.
And I fail to see any differences between theese classes (not counting visual aspect).
As we know, slayers don't work too well with game's armour system. Just as Witches.


Also, consider
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=390420&postcount=29

[Xurré]

I strongly disaggree with opinion that high tier armour have to be magically enhanced.
I belive it is much better, when all armours are non magical. Then we may enhance them with magic at our will. Each armour may have different options of possible enchantments. Then, we have much more customization options.
I would like that system too; I think it’s much more interesting that if instead of just swapping out items for better ones the items you have level with you and, thus, become part of your character. Kind of like how Excalibur is part of King Arthur.

Of course, in that case it would be the case for all armor and not just Witch Elf armor. ;)

I somehow think it’s doubtful that’ll happen though; magic-rich fantasy games in particular just tend to move towards magical items at higher level. And of course they could do something different in WAR, but that doesn’t make a difference in how Witch Elf armor would function relative to the other armors.

Also, I think in Warhammer world magic items are very rare. Warhammer world is dark grim and unavailability of magic is one of the reasons of that.
Only greatest heroes wield magic weapons and they are rare.
I’m not so sure of that. In the TT game I can give all of my heroes and champions magic items and even every normal unit of soldiers can have a magic banner at least. Then there’s sorceresses (and other magic users), magical creatures, magical artifacts (like the Cauldron of Blood for dark elves), etc.

Magic items might be less emphasized, but I don’t think they’re incredibly rare.

And even if they are rare, as long as they are available in the game that causes a problem; since everyone will then want those magic items. After all, why take a non-magical item when you can get the same item but with added magical properties. Unless of course magical items aren’t better than non-magical ones, but then what’s really the point of making the magical?

If you include magical items they tend to be better than non-magical ones. And if they’re better people will want them, willing to go through great lengths (and boring grinds) just to get that slight edge that the item might offer them. As such either have no magical items at all, or make them readily enough available (making them not ‘rare’).

We’re all “the greatest heroes” in an MMO after all.

Most propably, armour will work by decreasing amount of damage dealt by other player or enviroment. (All numbers below are my imagination only)
For example heavy armour will decrease this amount by 80%.
Then we have Witch without any physical armour. With a small amount of hit points (like all elves). Then we have 2 options.
1. From the very first level, we must give her some protective magic
2. Make her able to kill so fast, that she will not be killed by lvl1 monster.
3. Give her defensive skills
Point 1 is pathetic. In my opinion, lvl 1 character is not hero and she does not deserve magic.
Point 2 is obvious PvP disbalancing. If choppa have bigger toughness and better armour, she would need to kill much much faster to balance that. An she will be top priority target in every pvp (and will die quickly, becouse of no protection)
Point 3 bring us situation when she does not need armour to protect herself, and this mess with economy balance (She need not to make efford to gain armour and have more time /resources to gain other stuff). Also, I don't think WE supporters would like her to have defensive skills instead of offensive.
I think there are a few things wrong with your comparison, but let me start with saying I agree with your first point; it’d be silly to give low-level character copious amount of magic just to make them able to do their job.

I think the main thing you’re missing is the realization of their role. Witch Elves aren’t a tank; they’re not a defensive class to begin with. They’re a class that does a lot of damage and would have lower defense than a class in heavy armor. But your point of a Choppa in armor is an interesting one. So let’s have them at each other in a fictional battle (using purely fictional numbers).

Say a Choppa has light armor that removes 10% of damage done to them. But because of this extra protection they hit a little less hard, say only at 90% of maximum strength. Witch elves however have no armor so they take the full damage, but they also deal the full amount themselves. Now if you have the two fight each other (in this overly simplified example) then both the Witch Elf and the Choppa would get 90% of maximum damage (the Witch Elf hits for full damage, but 10% of it is mitigated by the Choppa’s armor; and the Choppa already hits for lower damage at only 90%, but all of it comes through). Despite their armor differences both should survive roughly equally as long in battle against each other.

So I think point 2 could work.

Point 3 could also be done. But that wouldn’t make armor useless for Witch Elves; that just means that they need the kind of armor that helps them with their brand of defensive ability. Instead of having a mitigating defensive ability like the Choppas and thus needing equipment that increases the mitigation, they could have an dodge-based defensive ability and thus needing equipment that makes this better.

Though I realize it’s a game without normal equipment (they do have ‘enhancements’ though) this works quite well in City of Heroes for Scrappers (their melee dps class). In fact, I see Witch Elves working somewhat like (claws) scrappers with the Super Reflexes secondary. Such characters work a lot on highs/lows in that they might avoid most damage but when damage is done it can go wrong quickly. And there are no real serious balance issues there.

I think you’re also mistaken on the point that giving them defensive ability would somehow diminish their offensive role. After all, damage mitigation is nothing but another defensive ability and yet that doesn’t diminish the offensive role of classes using that.

In short, it’s a different way of dealing with a class, but “defense” doesn’t just have to be “damage mitigation”. And there’s no reason why their armor wouldn’t be able to help with their brand of defense.


Exactly the same things can be said about slayers.
And I fail to see any differences between theese classes (not counting visual aspect).
As we know, slayers don't work too well with game's armour system. Just as Witches.
I might be mistaken, but I thought the problem with Slayers was purely visual. Or, to be more precise, that they don’t wear anything (except pants). Seeing as there isn’t anything there isn’t anything to tie the functional system into.

Yes, I know you could do something with tattoos or such; but tattoos don’t change the silhouette. And it’d be strange to remove a tattoo (unless you make them magical or something and have them morph into other tattoos or such).

Which reminds me of another point you (I think) brought up; Chaos Chosen being fused with their armor. This, I think, is represented in the game by never being able to undress to a state without armor. For the rest one might be able to imagine that the armor mutates to more advanced forms (it’s perhaps a bit of a stretch, but it’d make sense for Chaos).


- Xurré

[Axxar]

There shouldn't be any problems balancing witch elves. Let's take the choppa for instance - high offense, medium defense. The witch elf would be high offense, low defense. Okay, so she is too vulnerable in melee compared to the choppa - add some dodging abilities, and now they're even.

[Kellaris]

I somehow think it’s doubtful that’ll happen though; magic-rich fantasy games in particular just tend to move towards magical items at higher level. And of course they could do something different in WAR, but that doesn’t make a difference in how Witch Elf armor would function relative to the other armors.
- Xurré

Difference is, becouse Armour has Armour protection+ magic bonus and bikini has magic bonus only.
This kind of system works well with weapons in L2, so I don't think it is impossible.


I’m not so sure of that. In the TT game I can give all of my heroes and champions magic items and even every normal unit of soldiers can have a magic banner at least. Then there’s sorceresses (and other magic users), magical creatures, magical artifacts (like the Cauldron of Blood for dark elves), etc.

Magic items might be less emphasized, but I don’t think they’re incredibly rare.
- Xurré
I think player character starts in troop mode, and then advances to champion and at the end to hero level (and magic is quite appriopriate here, on tier4). This is personal view of the world based more on WFRP than WFB.



Say a Choppa has light armor that removes 10% of damage done to them. But because of this extra protection they hit a little less hard, say only at 90% of maximum strength. Witch elves however have no armor so they take the full damage, but they also deal the full amount themselves. Now if you have the two fight each other (in this overly simplified example) then both the Witch Elf and the Choppa would get 90% of maximum damage (the Witch Elf hits for full damage, but 10% of it is mitigated by the Choppa’s armor; and the Choppa already hits for lower damage at only 90%, but all of it comes through). Despite their armor differences both should survive roughly equally as long in battle against each other.

So I think point 2 could work.
- Xurré
I suspect, that light armour should remove about 40% of damage and heavy armour about 80%. Of course it is theory, but so far we can guess only.
So if choppa will reduce damage by 40% and considering that he will have more hit points, Witch will have to deal almost 4 times damage more.
Or dodge blows 4 times per one choppa dodge.
And so far, we were talking only about melee. There are lot of ranged attacks, and most propably they can not be dodged. Witch can have some magic resistance (another defensive skill), but I don't think she will dodge arrows, firearms and grenade explosions. Choppa armour will remove 40% of this damage. So to balance this, we must give Witches another damage dealing multiplyer. And this is not too good balancing.
I'm aware, that Witch is an Elf and so is Corsair and neither of them is supposed to be as tough as Orc. But they should have some ways to survive the battle ;)




I think you’re also mistaken on the point that giving them defensive ability would somehow diminish their offensive role. After all, damage mitigation is nothing but another defensive ability and yet that doesn’t diminish the offensive role of classes using that.
- Xurré
But damage mitigation is not a skill. All classes should have roughly the same number of skills. Witch need to have defensive skills to balance lack of any armour, so she will have less "slots" for offensive skills.



In short, it’s a different way of dealing with a class, but “defense” doesn’t just have to be “damage mitigation”. And there’s no reason why their armor wouldn’t be able to help with their brand of defense.
- Xurré
First. It may help if it is magical, and we agreed that begginer characters should not have magical armour.
Second. If Witch will have Magical Bra of Dodge +15, Choppa may have Light magical Armour of Dodge +15. And choppa will dodge as often as witch AND will have damage reduction.


I might be mistaken, but I thought the problem with Slayers was purely visual. Or, to be more precise, that they don’t wear anything (except pants). Seeing as there isn’t anything there isn’t anything to tie the functional system into.

Yes, I know you could do something with tattoos or such; but tattoos don’t change the silhouette. And it’d be strange to remove a tattoo (unless you make them magical or something and have them morph into other tattoos or such).
- Xurré

If we are talking about magical Bra, tatoos may be also magical.
Also I do not belive that problem with slayers is visual only. I do not have a time to make an efford like Your search of Visual Witch representations, but belive me: There is a lot of Slayer drawings and miniatures. It is one of most archetypical Warhammer characters. Witch is iconic for the Druchii. Slayer is iconic for entire world.
There are lot of options with tatoos, jewlery, piercings and so on.
Reason of not including Slayers cannot be Visual only.

[Kimmie]

There shouldn't be any problems balancing witch elves. Let's take the choppa for instance - high offense, medium defense. The witch elf would be high offense, low defense. Okay, so she is too vulnerable in melee compared to the choppa - add some dodging abilities, and now they're even.


i think that is the most likely. i can't wait for august.

[Zoatibix]

The Choppa will have heavier armour, more hitpoints than the Witch but she is faster, more skilful and has poisons to add to her DPS output.

A Witch will still need ‘good’ armour but her definition of ‘good’ is not based primarily on protection value but on stat bonuses. These can increase her agility to avoid blows, her attack speed, her movement rate, and damage output. She’s probably happy with the equivalent of Light Armour eg Leather.

For a Choppa (who builds his Frenzy over time) damage mitigation will be more important. He needs to stay alive longer to do his damage – he probably has Medium Armour eg Chainmail.

A Tank would probably have Heavy Armour such as Plate Mail and quite possibly a huge shield to boot. He has a heck of a lot more armour than the Choppa.

Magic Items are rare...but so are Wizards...there will be far, far more of them running around on the average battlefeild of WAR than WHFB. And in many of the fantasy worlds I've read Elves and Dwarfs manage to put a little bit of 'magic' into even their mundane items. They are craftsmen beyond the skill of a human.

You also keep talking about bras of protection - ignoring the potential armour progression of the Witch. At low level she starts with that silken bra that does nothing to protect her at all.

Around second level she find a quilted version that gives her some armour. At fifth level she gets a quest reward. The quest reward isn't a run of the mill bit of kit - it is made by a craftsman of no little skill. In a magical world his skill and knowledge has woven a little bit of magic into it, and it is very well made not restricting movement at all but able to rob a killing blow of some of its force.

At level 30 she picks up a chain mail bra. Being metal it will stop more of a blow than a piece of silk or the hardened, studded leather halter top she had been wearing. The cups are padded to spread impact damage and it has wide, thick straps which also serve to protect her shoulders and upper torso from blows. A little later she find another item - this is a light corset made of that infamous-fantasy-world-spanning-elvenchain. It is light as a feather yet able to turn aside a spear. Again the craftsman or woman who forged it may have spun their own magic into it. Special ingrediants were used during it’s forging. Rare herbs thrown into the fire that heat the blade. The water that quenched it blood from some terrible creature.

Does this corset give her the same raw damage mitigation as a Choppa’s crude, thick mail? Of course not, it doesn’t cover as much of her for one thing. But in exchange it gives her different stat bonuses. A Choppa player may look at it and think ‘Well, +10 to Attribute X is great but that bonus to Attribute Y is terrible, I want a bonus to Attribute Z.’

Obviously I can’t tell you how crafting is going to work but it is quite possible that armour will be inherently magic but still be capable of taking further enchantments on top.

At low levels (in Wow, Guild Wars and LoTR, at any rate) you have to work at getting killed by low level mobs. Maybe every other MMORPG out there is different but you have to suck or try to get yourself killed before level 5 or so.

But bear in mind a Choppa is also a Melee DPSer he’s going to be a lot easier to kill than a Black Orc or Chosen as you go up the levels. And I think as the levels go up the differences may become even more pronounced.
Looking at my old WoW characters (who have average gear, not ‘epic’) I can give you a very rough yardstick:

Leather absorbs 18%, Chain 30%, Plate 43% and Plate + Shield 54%

Now I would assume looking at the Choppa’s armour and description that he will be in the Chain section. The Witch Elf has some metal to her armour after a while but I think we could put her in the Leather category due to the amount of skin she shows.

Both Choppa and Witch might also get mitigation from Dodges and Parries, with the Witch getting a little more in exchange for lower base armour. She still won’t equal the Choppa’s overall mitigation and larger Hit Point pool, though.

Without support in against superior numbers the Witch would go down first – but do a lot of damage before she’s taken out. The Choppa will keep fighting for longer, quite possibly equalling or exceeding the Witch’s damage in the long run.

What we then have are two melee DPSers in Destruction who work in a slightly different way. The Witch is a glasscannon, the Orc a solid, reliable slugger. Witches are great for taking down fragile targets (or maybe other DPSers) that have to be killed as quickly as possible (wizards, etc) while Choppas are great for hacking down heavily armoured tanks, etc.

I can’t really comment on your concern over ranged damage because I don’t know how WAR will handle it. Will physical armour be bypassed by magic? Will Mythic deliver on their promise to avoid the horrendous CC problems a melee fighter could meet in WoW? I don’t know.

What I do know is that a ranged character should probably have some chance to significantly damage a melee character before she closes with him – because if she gets to him he should be dead.

I would also point out that you are talking about a Witch in isolation against a ranged enemy – this game is RvR. So the Witch should have support and screening from the rest of her group – if she gets ambushed alone or runs off thinking she’s Charlotte Norris….well her death is her own fault.

Slayer’s problem was not making armour work for them, they could have just had a very large amount of hit points and a natural toughness that worked like armour. In the TT game we can view the Slayers in a unit as those that have survived up until that point. They may have taken horrendous wounds and surivived, toughened by the experience. Hopefully they are finally able to find an honourable death in the battle at hand (iirc the Dwarf Army actually loses Victory Points if their Slayers are still alive at the end of the battle)

And that’s the big problem with Slayers- they want to die clear dishonour – they don’t want to be healed, they most certainly don’t want to be resurrected.