Chosen misconception?

[Skurk]

I've been looking through the Chosen info at WARonline, as well as the pictures of Chosen. Now I know the game hasn't come out yet, but this is what I've noticed so far.

It seems to me like Mythic isn't emphasizing the defensive nature of a Chosen, and rather emphasizing the fact that Chosen can swing big cool looking weapons, and wear bulky also cool looking armor. Even the first gameplay video of a Chosen is him swinging a two handed axe. And I think this is sending a mixed message? I've noticed a few topics of people who are dissapointed that Chosen are of defensive nature.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there's plenty of situations which calls for a two handed weapon to make the best of it. PvE grinding, maybe mowing down a single target faster. etc. But think about all of the people who haven't signed up for any WAR forum, or asked questions about the Chosen, and all the others from now until the game release who stumble into the Chaos Chosen section in WARonline and think "I'm going to roll a Chosen to kill things with that big sword."

Every picture in the Chosen section is them with a weapon, then a bigger weapon, and a bigger different kind of weapon. And there's only one picture of a chosen with a shield. Which kinda passes off the message that chosen will be the melee dps. Even their description doesn't seem to clearly state that they are a defensive career outside of one sentence. Which is "You will also often be called upon to protect the insignificant or the weak, not as an act of compassion, but rather in service to the inscrutable machinations of your treacherous god."
With the Marauder as the melee dps. Alot of people may be forgetting about them. I hope that no one rolls a Chosen when the game comes out with the pure intent to Melee dps.. I'm not condemning anyone who wants use a two handed weapon as a Chosen or anything, just saying what I think.

[Zeetchmen]

Giant armor clad spikey offensive looking guys in moives and pictures sells better than giant armor clad spikey defensive guys :cool:

[Tyrannis]

Lucky for you here's one person who is going to play a Chosen because of their defensive capabilities ;)

I understand what you're saying completely, and the worst thing is, I think it's not merely a possible future, rather than our destined one! :shock:

Well, what I mean is I've seen TONS of people go "oh ya ch0s3n ftw dps ubermachine omgwtf" and not realise that in fact the Chosen's archetype is based around that of a tank. Perhaps they will do more damage than your average tank? Who knows? But certainly not enough to be rivalling melee DPS, because they are geared towards tanky stuff. High armour, taunts, blocks etc.

The actual melee DPS class of Chaos, the Marauder, is being ignored sadly :( However many people I see flock to the class or however many say "Yes, and I'm proud to be one!" still doesn't quite overshadow the fact that about 60% of Chaos will be tanks...

All this talk of Chosen overpopulation is making me want to switch to a Marauder... just the idea of loads of the people you spoke of flocking to Chosen just because of their "cool factor" makes me want to escape it. People will start to assume that any Chosen will be a n00b Chosen :(

[Skurk]

Lucky for you here's one person who is going to play a Chosen because of their defensive capabilities ;)

I understand what you're saying completely, and the worst thing is, I think it's not merely a possible future, rather than our destined one! :shock:

Well, what I mean is I've seen TONS of people go "oh ya ch0s3n ftw dps ubermachine omgwtf" and not realise that in fact the Chosen's archetype is based around that of a tank. Perhaps they will do more damage than your average tank? Who knows? But certainly not enough to be rivalling melee DPS, because they are geared towards tanky stuff. High armour, taunts, blocks etc.

The actual melee DPS class of Chaos, the Marauder, is being ignored sadly :( However many people I see flock to the class or however many say "Yes, and I'm proud to be one!" still doesn't quite overshadow the fact that about 60% of Chaos will be tanks...

All this talk of Chosen overpopulation is making me want to switch to a Marauder... just the idea of loads of the people you spoke of flocking to Chosen just because of their "cool factor" makes me want to escape it. People will start to assume that any Chosen will be a n00b Chosen :(

I think it's perfectly fine to roll a Chosen for their defensive abilities. I rolled an IB for their defensive abilities. I'm sure a dwarf in Gromril armor can take wholly amount of punishment, and I'm sure a Chosen will be able to do the same. What I hope for, is that Mythic will emphasize the defensive nature of the Chosen. So it can attract those who want to play the Chosen for it's defensive abilities. And those who want to melee dps can play as Marauders.

I'm just worried that people will play chosen and be like "OWTF DEFENS?" I say don't let all the people who flock to Chosen make you change your mind. If you are one who will run to the frontline and hold the frontline, I'm sure you'd make friends with plenty of Zealots and Magus' since you're quite the tank.

[Michael Ritter]

I defiantly can see where your coming from. Considering the only real shields we have seen for chosen/chaos has come through concept art only. I do remember it took a while for them to actually start showing greenskins and dwarf shields or a variety of them for that matter. However, I think its actually a good thing that there showing that a Tank does not need to have the tried and true "sword and board" method to tank. In fact, I still remember fondly playing my Armsman in DAoC where he was very situtional "heavy/tank" melee class where I would indeed switch to my shield when necessary or whip out my 2h sword when it was called for. I mean, if your not being beat on, why not give them your full damage? Again, mythic has been stressing that the most effective at the class is probably the most diverse that is usually getting the most out of it. Case in point, the most effective healers are not just spamming heals but doing dps/debuffs to really get effective heals and I feel that this concept also applies to the tank role. They have also stated that everyone does DPS, so don't count the chosen or any "tank" class out for that matter. I'd like to quote Paul here from Baltimore,

Our QA department own people who don't pay attention when they bring their black orcs out, because people go (Paul imitating a new player)"I have played lots of games, and I should jump through this black orc" but I say you have been bounced back and now you'r stunned for a minute and getting killed. Or they will go "I know its a tank but I will have no pro... Jesus christ..."

I know this quote doesn't do justice without an animated paul, but it can be viewed here http://files.filefront.com/OWGrimBalt.wmv/;7873169;/fileinfo.html . Don't get me wrong, I'm all for players being defensive and relying on defensive capabilities of the chosen but don't count him out on offense.

[Arijharn]

Yeah, I think they partially chose the 2hand wielder because it just looks more 'atmospheric' to the Warhammer world (i.e., crush all who stand before you... as opposed to protect the weak), it's atmospheric synchronity with Chaos itself being better represented by monstrous weapons than a sword and board and because it's easier to market.

Of all the destruction classes, I think the Chosen would easily rank as the more populuous ones and I believe you are absolutely correct when it will lead to a vast amount of people quitting the class eventually because it isn't quite the dps machine they originally expected to be. I'm a bit skeptical of Mythic as well when they said 'defensive' although I also don't know how much to take that at face value since they also mentioned they were very much in the process of fine tuning the class in the same breath.

[Chapel]

Here's another one who agrees with you.
On the other hand the tank is usually on the front line defendig the rest and drawing aggression toward himself.
Thus, he will do quite a lot of fighting, so those looking at a chosen and go ' och aye big burly warrior uut tuu smash people in the face pal!' ( not entirely sure why they'd be talking with a Scottish accent but still) might not be too disappointed.

[Axxar]

I think they simply haven't yet gotten some sweet-looking shield models for the Chosen in the game yet.

[Khanstorm]

I think the idea everyone has, is that they see that the Chosen is the Chaos tank career and instantly think, well, he is going to be defensive.

This is how I see it.
Chosen, is the most heavily armored Chaos career, therefore, he will be able to take the most damage, and would be most effective standing in between the enemy and his weaker armored allies.
This doesn't mean that the Chosen can't dish out damage though.
Tanks in real life, are heavily armored, killing machines. You won't see an M1 Abram (There an H in there? Forgot =S) struggle to take out a single soldier.
Typically the tactic of how tanks are used today, is they are used to annihilate the enemy And to be sent in when the infantry are too ill equipped to handle the job.

So you wouldn't send an infantry platoon armed with SMG's to take out enemy armor, rather you would send your tanks, who are better armored and better equipped to deal with the situation>

In summary, although the Chaos Chosen is the "tank" career for the Chaos, I think this is based solely on the reason that they bear the strongest armor.

[Axxar]

Actually I think it's quite the opposite. People see the videos of the Chosen wielding two-handed weapons and the concept art where it looks like he's using a two-handed weapon - though in later concept art it turns out to be a one-handed weapon. People seem to want the Chosen to be a DPS-heavy career rather than the defensive-oriented tank we've been told he is.

[Khanstorm]

Yeah i see where you're coming from, and in all honesty it's just speculation until more of the Chosen abilities are released =/

[Seventh Child]

I'm hoping the Shield gets more use as a tool as well. I like to play with a Swordboard style, but so often the only reason to put on a shield is to halve your damage and get some armour and blocking ability in return (And MResist in CO /shrug). It'd be nice to get some more trade-offs, like being able to hide behind it or push people out of the way.

Ah, one can dream.

Anyway you can count on this Chosen to be using a shield. I like my shields.

[Hatemonger]

I think the idea everyone has, is that they see that the Chosen is the Chaos tank career and instantly think, well, he is going to be defensive.

This is how I see it.
Chosen, is the most heavily armored Chaos career, therefore, he will be able to take the most damage, and would be most effective standing in between the enemy and his weaker armored allies.
This doesn't mean that the Chosen can't dish out damage though.
Tanks in real life, are heavily armored, killing machines. You won't see an M1 Abram (There an H in there? Forgot =S) struggle to take out a single soldier.
Typically the tactic of how tanks are used today, is they are used to annihilate the enemy And to be sent in when the infantry are too ill equipped to handle the job.

So you wouldn't send an infantry platoon armed with SMG's to take out enemy armor, rather you would send your tanks, who are better armored and better equipped to deal with the situation>

In summary, although the Chaos Chosen is the "tank" career for the Chaos, I think this is based solely on the reason that they bear the strongest armor.

I think you missed the point a bit.

No one is saying that the Chosen won't be able to deal out damage, because every class in the game should hopefully be able to hold their own in a fight. What we're worried about is people thinking that they are going to be the 'powerhouse', sucking up everything that hits him and then dealing back more damage than anyone. I also think your idea of the Chosen is skewed. He isn't just a tank because he has strongest armor. He's a tank because a lot of his supposed abilities will be defensive in nature. Your tank analogy is cool, but isn't applicable to the mmo-version of the word. At least, not until WAR. ;)

[Axxar]

Yeah, I think the tanks won't be crap offense and high defense, but moderate damage and high defense. As opposed to the marauder who'll have high damage and moderate defenseI don't think any career in this game will have less than moderate damage. Everybody fights! Etc..

[Khanstorm]

Well, we won't know how the offensive/defensive balance is going to be until his abilities get released I guess.

But I understand what you guys are saying =D

[Pieter Klass]

a tank is a wall that protects those behind it but if a wall falls on you,you get squashed,ther will be a mechanic that increases dmg but you will never reach the lvl of dps that say a maurader or hammer can deal

[Keiser]

To be honest, what's a shield going to do that the 30 tons of plate armor a Chosen's already wearing won't be able to do? Chosen may very well be just as effective at tanking with a 2 hander as with a shield, depending on their mechanics.

[Arijharn]

To be honest, what's a shield going to do that the 30 tons of plate armor a Chosen's already wearing won't be able to do? Chosen may very well be just as effective at tanking with a 2 hander as with a shield, depending on their mechanics.

The difference being is that a shield could conceivably fully block a blow, whereas armour at least in real life would transfer the blow across (or mitigate the damage in game terms). Sure you might not be cut in twain, but you'd still feel it, it will still hurt. Shields however may numb your arm abit, but that's a bit different from having exploding organs from the transfer of energy.

[Vlademir]

The difference being is that a shield could conceivably fully block a blow, whereas armour at least in real life would transfer the blow across (or mitigate the damage in game terms). Sure you might not be cut in twain, but you'd still feel it, it will still hurt. Shields however may numb your arm abit, but that's a bit different from having exploding organs from the transfer of energy.

ooooo he went physics on ur

[Keiser]

Difference being in that the size comparison is not like real life. You don't need a shield to block blows from something or someone that's remarkably smaller than you. Dislocation and explosion of organs is in a fight between people using comparable force, but imagine wearing plate armor and having someone that's 3 feet tall hitting you. Probably won't need a shield for that.

[Hatemonger]

It's been describes as a defensive tank. If people can't read that and understand it, then maybe they deserve to be disappointed.

[SeveredFate]

It's been describes as a defensive tank. If people can't read that and understand it, then maybe they deserve to be disappointed.

Ppl dont want to read it. they see that thick detailed armr and a hugeass 2her and splooge all over thinking "DPSDPSDPSDPSDPS". I cant wait for the release of their skills, ppl will be sorely mistaken and then the marauder will be the flava flav for the chaos DPSers. they'll enjoy CRAB CLAWS. The other tanks have some amazing tanking abilities, and im still strung up between which tanking class i want to play. Tanking is gonna be so much fun in this game. Actually being able to literally STOP players is revolutionary imo for tanks.

[Keiser]

Oh no, don't get me wrong, I'm looking to play a tank, as my favorite character from WoW raiding was my warrior, I was always so disappointed the majority of those abilities were useless in PvP.

All I'm saying is 2 hander does NOT necessarily equal less defensive, it's only how you think about it. Someone that large may very well be able to use a 2 handed sword like someone else would use a shield. Replace blocking with parrying.

[Khanstorm]

Well, I definitely am going to be playing a Chaos Chosen. I know that it's a defensive tank, but that doesn't mean it won't be able to play offensively. That will probably be my playstyle with the chosen anyway, while still standing in the way of blows, I plan on still playing offensively. (In GW with my W/N i was a sword and board who put out max health degen on the enemy, by packing on just about every condition.)

I know that as a Chosen it is a defensive career that does moderate damage, but just my general play style across all the MMO's and RPGs i play is always offensive while absorbing damage. Once they release some of the dark gifts I hope I can come up with a unique strategy to complement my plastyle.

And by Offensive playstyle i don't mean Omg dps dps, i mean Manuevering wise, positioning wise, and just mentality.

[SeveredFate]

Well, I definitely am going to be playing a Chaos Chosen. I know that it's a defensive tank, but that doesn't mean it won't be able to play offensively. That will probably be my playstyle with the chosen anyway, while still standing in the way of blows, I plan on still playing offensively. (In GW with my W/N i was a sword and board who put out max health degen on the enemy, by packing on just about every condition.)

I know that as a Chosen it is a defensive career that does moderate damage, but just my general play style across all the MMO's and RPGs i play is always offensive while absorbing damage. Once they release some of the dark gifts I hope I can come up with a unique strategy to complement my plastyle.

And by Offensive playstyle i don't mean Omg dps dps, i mean Manuevering wise, positioning wise, and just mentality.

I think youre going to have a...unique...time trying this. With the more defensive skills the chaos should end up having, you might end up taking too much dmg to keep you up effectively if you are in DPS gear w/o a shield. In melee anyway, clothies still deserve to be cleaved in half :) maybe you could try to ninja your way past, regardless of your hulking size and shiny armr.

just my thoughts on it, plus i think the marauder is just going to dominate in terms of DPS, crab claws hold no laws in terms of ownage

[Arijharn]

Difference being in that the size comparison is not like real life. You don't need a shield to block blows from something or someone that's remarkably smaller than you. Dislocation and explosion of organs is in a fight between people using comparable force, but imagine wearing plate armor and having someone that's 3 feet tall hitting you. Probably won't need a shield for that.

Is the game likely to distinguish between getting hit by a KoTBS and a Ironbreaker based off their race? Not likely.

[Keiser]

Is the game likely to distinguish between getting hit by a KoTBS and a Ironbreaker based off their race? Not likely.

Is it possible that a Chosen with a 2 handed weapon and an Ironbreaker with a shield might have the same defensive statistics by merely changing some numbers in a spreadsheet somewhere? You even see the Chosen in the cinematic dual wielding, actively parrying blows with one weapon. We've seen ONE piece of artwork, a concept drawing at that, that would give any credence to a Chosen using a shield, ever, much less as a primary piece of equipment.

If the Chosen assumes an aggressive stance without a shield and tries to lop heads off, he'll take more damage. If he acts defensively and actively tries to parry more, he would take less damage.

[SeveredFate]

Is it possible that a Chosen with a 2 handed weapon and an Ironbreaker with a shield might have the same defensive statistics by merely changing some numbers in a spreadsheet somewhere? You even see the Chosen in the cinematic dual wielding, actively parrying blows with one weapon. We've seen ONE piece of artwork, a concept drawing at that, that would give any credence to a Chosen using a shield, ever, much less as a primary piece of equipment.

If the Chosen assumes an aggressive stance without a shield and tries to lop heads off, he'll take more damage. If he acts defensively and actively tries to parry more, he would take less damage.

That cinematic is ages past what ppl should still be thinking. I think, because of no skills to accomodate the role the Chosen will be taking, ppl are looking at the art etc. and making the assumption that they'll be able to manhandle ppl while mysteriously staying alive long enough. I dont think this will work as well as ppl are imagining. Keeping the real DPSers alive through taunts w/e will be much more beneficial than "I think they look cool and i want to DPS, so leave me alone". The dmg given to the tanks is so that while theyre still heavily defensive, they can still bring ppl down, just not as fast as a dual wielding whirlwind of death with 1/2 the hp and armr. I cant wait to tank, just gotta see what the tanks are bringing to the table, and look at which looks funnest to me.

An ironbreaker w/ a shield is going to absorb much more pain than a Chosen w/ a 2her, and i dont think they'll have the same defense, regardless of who tampers with the spreadsheets.

[Selendor]

People know it's the tank and they don't care. They still think "Well, the Chosen will probably have higher DPS as their gimmick, look at the 2Hers!1" They're completely ignoring the fact that Mythic has said, point blank, the Chosen is the most defensively oriented tank.

[Kaiser]

Difference being in that the size comparison is not like real life. You don't need a shield to block blows from something or someone that's remarkably smaller than you. Dislocation and explosion of organs is in a fight between people using comparable force, but imagine wearing plate armor and having someone that's 3 feet tall hitting you. Probably won't need a shield for that.

Its not so much that your getting hitby something 3ft tall, its that the three foot being is weilding a weapon that will smash yer face in. Imagine it like this...

The shield is a brick wall, you are behind it, and the dwarf infront of you is an anvil...an anvil thats running at you.

Without the shield, no concevable amount of armor will be able to take a hit and leave the wearer unharmed. Should the anvil hit a brick wall, then possibly hit you, the damage done to your body is conciderably lessened.

Personaly I LOVE shields. They can be used as weapons just as well as a short sword... infact, they are probably better in some situation (i.e. fighting a tank).

P.S. Nice name :rolleyes:

[Arijharn]

Is it possible that a Chosen with a 2 handed weapon and an Ironbreaker with a shield might have the same defensive statistics by merely changing some numbers in a spreadsheet somewhere? You even see the Chosen in the cinematic dual wielding, actively parrying blows with one weapon. We've seen ONE piece of artwork, a concept drawing at that, that would give any credence to a Chosen using a shield, ever, much less as a primary piece of equipment.

If the Chosen assumes an aggressive stance without a shield and tries to lop heads off, he'll take more damage. If he acts defensively and actively tries to parry more, he would take less damage.

I see your point, but what is the Chosen really sacrificing in terms of being a parrying tank in regards to an Ironbreaker shield tanking?

I don't know much about an Ironbreaker's abilities at all, but considerign the Chosen have a 'fear effect' (the point being he has secondary effects that seem rather passive and adds utility) and as you say a Chosen can merely switch his footing to be rather offensive he will be hitting harder than an ironbreaker? Why? Because I should hope that a 2hander hits harder than a one hand+shield combination, otherwise, what's the point of using a 2hander?

[BallsOfSteel]

I've said this in previous threads, and I think it should be brought up here, as well.

Mythic seems to be trying to blend the boundaries between "melee dps" and "melee tank" and "caster dps" and "caster heals". The Chosen is the "defensive-oriented" melee, but that does NOT mean that he won't be able to do damage. That's a good thing. The Chosen seem to be the knights. Keep in mind that in history, knights were not damage-soakers; there were no such thing. They were the most dangerous and effective units, and also keep in mind that a knight was not always a cavalryman. Translating that into MMO terms means that they could take damage and deal it out in kind.

Marauders, however, are the BERSERKERS. Berserkers weren't the "best dps" in the ancient world, but they were scary as because they didn't wear armor. They had their chests open, their body smeared with blood, and they were bloodthirsty, practically insane warriors whose only goal was to kill everything in sight. They sacrificed armor and protection, and in MMO terms, probably life as well, to do as much damage as they possibly could. They didn't stop until they died.

So comparing these two, you'll see that neither are stuck with the role of "sit there with a shield and look pretty". Both are warriors, and that seems to be Mythic's goal. Instead, it's two different aspects of it. Chosen are intimidating, but their armor allows them to walk up, soak up the damage that inevitably hits them before they reach their target, then deftly and swiftly hit hard. They're like the knights of old. Marauders are instead just a flurry of blows and hard-hitting, crippling attacks.

So please, try not to lump them together unless and until Mythic says otherwise. Until then, I leave you with this:Only death - either yours or theirs - brings any hope of respite from the fear and confusion that the Chosen inspire and the devastation they wreak on the battlefield. The best choice is almost certainly to do anything and everything you can to eliminate the Chosen from the fight as quickly as possible. They are devious and manipulative, and it is unwise to give them any opportunity to use their Dark Gifts to guide the course of a battle. Since they are most dangerous at close range, wise groups will focus magical and ranged attacks on them early in the fight. Failing that, your only hope is a focused, heavy melee attack – though it will certainly be a race against the dark and creeping terror such close proximity to the monstrous Chosen will instill in you and your allies.

[Machness]

im not familiar with the lore, but hopefully chosen will be mainly defensive. i think everybody's flocking to them now because all the pics show them with massive two-handers and not shields. i only say this because the mass crowd generally leans toward high dps classes.

[Yvo]

There will always be people who suck at their class because they didn't bother to read for five minutes before they picked the wrong class.

Don't get me wrong, just because someone decides to use a 2hander as a chosen and mess some people up in pvp doesn't make them a noob. But when people pick tank/support classes on a whim and decide they will just dps and won't tank/support, they generally are very bad players.

Tanking in WAR will most likely be different from what we're used to with collision detection and the ability to actually do decent damage as a tank. The players that can maximize their damage while minimizing the damage they take are going to be the ones you look for.

I know for a fact greenskins are going to be in trouble when it comes to their shamans. I've seen plenty of people who want to be ranged dps as a greenskin, but they also want to be a caster. So they pick shaman and will probably never give actively supporting their group a second thought.

[Barundin162]

I for one will be playing my Alt as Chaos because he is a tank, and plan to run sword and board. See my combination of Warhammer Chaos love (2000pt World Eaters army) and the want to play something that isnt a spell caster (Pally in WoW, Rune Priest with my guild) I want to finally be the guy who people hit and frown because they relaised they only did like 2 damage.

So dont worry 1 more person among ocean of imature 12 year olds who play because they wanna be arnold or something