Warhammer High Elves: A Breed Apart

[Alluvian_Est-Endrati]

I thought it might be worthwhile to start up a thread to talk about and discuss the High Elves of the Warhammer world. One of the reasons I thought of doing this, is because to many unfamiliar with the Warhammer world, the High Elves might just look like "Just another group of Elves". I assure you that, even though I am not that fond of the race myself, the High Elves of Warhammer are a very interesting interpretation of the Tolkien Elf.

Unlike some other fantasy worlds, the Elves of Warhammer are more heavily inspired by the works of Tolkien. They are taller and fairer than humans, have studied magic for such a long time it has become integrated into their culture, and they have a much more... shall we say detailed understanding of the "True Nature" of Chaos than any other race, save some of those aligned to Chaos itself.

Warhammer Elves, like Tolkien Elves, are a fading race. Their civilization has fallen far from its ancient glories, and has been sundered by countless wars (With Chaos, with Dwarfs) and even has faced both civil war (Dark Elves) and exiles (Wood Elves). Despite all of this, they are one of the most powerful races still to inhabit the world, though their reach is not as long as it once was.

High Elf history in Warhammer has some unmistakable parallels to the Melnibonian culture from the Elric series of novels... but are much more benign than this group portrayed by Moorcock. Their colonies and cities once covered many areas of the Old World (and numerous other places), and they still have some distant outposts in far flung corners of the world.

The High Elf armies in the Warhammer world are quite devastating when called forth. Not only do they possess some of the greatest spellcasters of the world, their skill at arms and their use of weapons of war (including large scale weapons) is quite high. High Elves have also, over the span of time, learned to incorporate many beasts and animals into their armies, aside from the mere horses and simple mounts for calvary. Dragons, untouched by Chaos, can still be called forth in times of dire need.

High Elves, though they might be considered by some to be a "pretty" race, their beauty has become touched by tragedy over time. It is a fell beauty, but not as grim as that possessed by the Druchii. Skilled craftsmen, High Elves have long refined weapons and armor as more than simply functional protection, but also as works of art. Each piece of armor, each swordblade, is the work of a master of their craft, glit with gold and silver and often adorned with flowing script and gemstones.

While Elves at times are popular choices in MMO's, there seems to (lately) be an anti-elf sentiment that has grown. Despite this (And my dislike of High Elves in Warhammer is quite an old distaste), I think that for those interested in playing upon the side of the forces of Order, this is a race quite unlike other Elves you might have played in other games.

[Nerothos]

The problem with this is that many players (a few RPers too) aren't going to fully (or at all) realize the pragmatic attitude of Warhammer Elves, and thus will still stain our wondrous image.

Gives me an excuse to cave in a few more heads, but still. It's like a black ink spill on beautiful canvas.

[Ghrond]

I don't think so. I think that the competent players will realise very much early on how different and unique the Warhammer elves are, given that Mythic has done its job properly.

[Noesis]

I have always wondered why the High Elves haven't recieved some of the other races with more open arms, especially the wood elves. Is it because the high elves do not trust humans?

Since the High Elves are so forward thinking, I would envision them as the U.N. of the warhammer world. Constantly inviting ambassadors from other areas of the world to summit meetings on Ulthuan to discuss plans for the future. Since of all the races the high elves should know that the only way "order" will be able to exist into the future is if order starts to function as an alliance. And not just when Chaos unleashes a massive offensive.

So I guess my question is, what is preventing this from taking place? Specifically, what is preventing the High Elves and Wood Elves from working together? Surely these kin could put aside trivial differences and re-unite given the grim future.

[Nerothos]

The differences between the Asrai (Wood Elves) and the Asur (High Elves) aren't trivial. During the War of the Beard, all the High Elven forces on the mainland were called back to Ulthuan, because it desperately needed defense after the Druchii came in following the Dwarfen attack. Most of the colonies responded, save for the now Wood Elven ones. They thought to defend their place on the mainland because they grew attached to it. The Asur see those elves as traitors of their country, and thus, won't acknowledge them as High Elves anymore. Not that they mind.

[Noesis]

The differences between the Asrai (Wood Elves) and the Asur (High Elves) aren't trivial. During the War of the Beard, all the High Elven forces on the mainland were called back to Ulthuan, because it desperately needed defense after the Druchii came in following the Dwarfen attack. Most of the colonies responded, save for the now Wood Elven ones. They thought to defend their place on the mainland because they grew attached to it. The Asur see those elves as traitors of their country, and thus, won't acknowledge them as High Elves anymore. Not that they mind.

It has been what thousands of years? Surely the high elves could make peace with their brothers.

What about the other alliance races? Humans in particular. I suppose it all boils down to the High Elves not trusting the fickle and ambitious humans.

What of the Lizardmen? What is the relationship between Lizardmen and High Elves?

[Linkusmax]

It has been what thousands of years? Surely the high elves could make peace with their brothers.

What about the other alliance races? Humans in particular. I suppose it all boils down to the High Elves not trusting the fickle and ambitious humans.

What of the Lizardmen? What is the relationship between Lizardmen and High Elves?

The Wood Elves aren't hugely fond of talking with anyone, there aren't that many of them anyway.

Humans are one of Ulthuans big allies, The High Elves taught them magic, Teclis/Elven Navy assisted them again during the storm of chaos. (Dispelled a whole Daemon Army and brought 300 Swordmasters/stopped the northern tribes from interfeering respectively).

[Vikingkingq]

It has been what thousands of years? Surely the high elves could make peace with their brothers.

What about the other alliance races? Humans in particular. I suppose it all boils down to the High Elves not trusting the fickle and ambitious humans.

What of the Lizardmen? What is the relationship between Lizardmen and High Elves?

Well, Elves live for thousands of years, so it's fairly recent for them. Most Elves, be they Asur or Asrai, probably didn't live through it, but their parents did. Moreover, there's now a large cultural difference between the spontaneous, anarchistic Asrai and the ordered, self-disciplined Asur - they just don't look at the world the same way anymore.

High Elves actually get along well with Humans. They do a lot of trading with them through Marienburg, they helped establish the Colleges oif Magic, they've rendered assistance during major invasions.

Lizardmen and High Elves, not so much, because the Lizardmen are VERY reclusive.

[Barundin]

I have always wondered why the High Elves haven't recieved some of the other races with more open arms, especially the wood elves. Is it because the high elves do not trust humans?

Since the High Elves are so forward thinking, I would envision them as the U.N. of the warhammer world. Constantly inviting ambassadors from other areas of the world to summit meetings on Ulthuan to discuss plans for the future. Since of all the races the high elves should know that the only way "order" will be able to exist into the future is if order starts to function as an alliance. And not just when Chaos unleashes a massive offensive.

So I guess my question is, what is preventing this from taking place? Specifically, what is preventing the High Elves and Wood Elves from working together? Surely these kin could put aside trivial differences and re-unite given the grim future.

The high elfs sent some ambassadors to Athel Loren once. The wood elfs of course just threw them out into the forest where they walked around for seventy years before finally getting out. When they got out they were all lynched by brettonian peasants who thought they were monsters...

So yeah, it's not like the high elfs don't try....

[Altharius]

While Elves at times are popular choices in MMO's, there seems to (lately) be an anti-elf sentiment that has grown. Despite this (And my dislike of High Elves in Warhammer is quite an old distaste), I think that for those interested in playing upon the side of the forces of Order, this is a race quite unlike other Elves you might have played in other games.

I think that this is due mostly to the lack of fantays reading for the most part. Altough Elves believe in justiceness and fainess they are far from goody two shoes. Take the Dragonlance fantasy series the Qualinesti(sun lovers) and the Silvenesti (night lovers)
are the same except for their culture but they banish they king and queen when they marry and attempt to assassinate them. The Elves of Tolkien in LOTR altough they follow the are more of Wood Elves they still will kill without mercy anything that is not elf freindly. No prisoners are taken what so ever.

[Altharius]

While Elves at times are popular choices in MMO's, there seems to (lately) be an anti-elf sentiment that has grown. Despite this (And my dislike of High Elves in Warhammer is quite an old distaste), I think that for those interested in playing upon the side of the forces of Order, this is a race quite unlike other Elves you might have played in other games.

I think that this is due mostly to the lack of fantays reading for the most part. Altough Elves believe in justiceness and fainess they are far from goody two shoes. Take the Dragonlance fantasy series the Qualinesti(sun lovers) and the Silvenesti (night lovers)
are the same except for their culture but they banish they king and queen when they marry and attempt to assassinate them. The Elves of Tolkien in LOTR altough they follow the are more of Wood Elves they still will kill without mercy anything that is not elf freindly. No prisoners are taken what so ever. And again the Dark Elves of The Elder Scrols still practice slavery of other races, the Wood Elves are unfreindly to outsiders, and the High Evles consider themselves superior and enslaved all other races at the beginning of time.

Thus i consider the concept of a goody two shoes elf completley a lack of reading of different fantasies.

[Sobek]

I'm sure the High Elves would like to work with other races, its just that the other races don't want to.

As has been said, they have vibrant and working relations with the Empire.

The Bretonnians are extremely xenophobic, especially when it comes to non-humans.

They would probably work with the Tomb Kings if need be, since they really have no reason to dislike each other, but the elves would probably find the very fact they are undead offensive, and the Tomb Kings just really don't like working with anyone.

They have a lot of history with the Dwarfs, and though they will work with them if need be, they would really prefer not to.

The Wood Elves don't like anyone, especially non-elves. Though, they would never ally with the Dark Elves, and they have some long standing grudges with the High Elves. Makes it hard to open a dialogue when the other party lodges an arrow in your throat whenever you get anywhere near them.

The High Elves probably know more about the Lizardmen than any other race, and since the Lizardmen are VERY reclusive, they tend to respect their power and leave them alone. If it came down to it, if something really dire came up, the High Elves wouldn't be adverse to fighting with the Lizardmen (at least the leadership wouldn't, the rank and file might take some convincing.) and the Mage Priests are definitely aware of the High Elves, and probably wouldn't have any issues fighting with them, seeing as they have a long history with them.

Basically, no one really wants to talk to the High Elves, and to be frank, they really don't want to talk with anyone else.

[KyanMehwulfe]

While Elves at times are popular choices in MMO's, there seems to (lately) be an anti-elf sentiment that has grown. Despite this (And my dislike of High Elves in Warhammer is quite an old distaste), I think that for those interested in playing upon the side of the forces of Order, this is a race quite unlike other Elves you might have played in other games.
It comes down to aesthetics.

It's one thing to tell players that an elf is an awe-striking race; it's another entirely to make those players believe it when the elf is played by some dude.

Definitely a massive challenge for any developer trying to deliver a strongly-fitting elf race. Shadowbane, unexpectedly, has likely done it the best. The elves, especially the high and irekei, were quite striking and believable.

[Ishkar]

The High Elves probably know more about the Lizardmen than any other race, and since the Lizardmen are VERY reclusive, they tend to respect their power and leave them alone. If it came down to it, if something really dire came up, the High Elves wouldn't be adverse to fighting with the Lizardmen (at least the leadership wouldn't, the rank and file might take some convincing.) and the Mage Priests are definitely aware of the High Elves, and probably wouldn't have any issues fighting with them, seeing as they have a long history with them.

At one point yes, the Elves first learned magic from the Slann, and they fought together during the war against chaos (before the catastrophe).

But when the dark elves started raiding Lustria the Slann blamed all elves:
While the Slann were battling against the rat-spawn, the Dark Elves began raiding the jungles of Lustria. The Slann had not encountered these evil natured beings before, and did not differentiate between them and the High Elves, seeing them as the Old Ones had originally intended - as a single, balanced race.

--snip--

Thus began a new era of hatred and mistrust between the Lizardmen and the Elves, resulting in thousands upon thousands of sacrifices on either side, and the Lizardmen becoming ever more aggressive and mistrustful towards all warm-blooded creatures invading their realm.

So these days the Slann wont trust the High Elves and the Lizardmen would kill them on sight.

[VeriusCarth]

The Elf-hating probably derives from the fact that in games like WoW, they're so utterly over-played that 50% of the server is nothing but elves. Most of the time, the elf players tended to be immature, and annoying as well, which starting making people think that all elves were noobish by default.

And this sort of distaste has continued on to other games, which is probably by the High Elf seems to be the least popular race in WAR so far.

[KyanMehwulfe]

The art doesn't help, as well. The big floppy ears, the goofy dances, the tongue-in-cheek voice acting. It can be fun I suppose for a lot of folks, but it definitely makes it very easy to mock and not take elves seriously.

Especially in contrast to Warcraft III where Night Elves were quite awe-inspiring. Furion would be weeping in the Emerald Dream if he knew what happened to his elves since World of Warcraft arrived.

[PlagueLord]

It has been what thousands of years? Surely the high elves could make peace with their brothers.

What about the other alliance races? Humans in particular. I suppose it all boils down to the High Elves not trusting the fickle and ambitious humans.

What of the Lizardmen? What is the relationship between Lizardmen and High Elves?

elves are sociopaths..thats what makes them so interesting.

[Odiamh]

The Elf-hating probably derives from the fact that in games like WoW, they're so utterly over-played that 50% of the server is nothing but elves. Most of the time, the elf players tended to be immature, and annoying as well, which starting making people think that all elves were noobish by default.

And this sort of distaste has continued on to other games, which is probably by the High Elf seems to be the least popular race in WAR so far.

I for one am an elf lover. It is my perferable race to play in any mmo (although the typical drunk dwarf can be fun on rp servers). Typically I play an elf with a 2H sword because thats what i like. In DAoC I was an elf champ, WoW I have a NE warrior and a BE pally(and being elves in numerous other games being MMO or not), and I agree that it was in WoW that caused the downfall. While i saw an improvement from switching from alliance to Horde(lol) It seemed that the most immatureplayers were on BE's unfortunatly.

However I do not like the way elves are porrayed in WoW they just dont seem elven enough(probably the cartoon stlye). And their version of downfall was just to extreme for my tatse. being bonded to the sunwell/moonwell seemed to possesive(item wise i suppose) for any type of elf. I do understand they are possesive over certian things but more then not its about doing something well or keeping to their virtues rather then a hole in the ground with some water in(thats for dwarves lol) well either way I am glad I'll more likely then not be able to be an elven swordmaster with a 2H sword, guess we will see tommrow at the earliest perhaps.

[Aethelbeorht]

However I do not like the way elves are porrayed in WoW they just dont seem elven enough(probably the cartoon stlye). And their version of downfall was just to extreme for my tatse. being bonded to the sunwell/moonwell seemed to possesive(item wise i suppose) for any type of elf. I do understand they are possesive over certian things but more then not its about doing something well or keeping to their virtues rather then a hole in the ground with some water in(thats for dwarves lol).

Too possessive as regards items? That isn't exactly unique to Warcraft... Tolkien's elves left their homeland (well, second homeland) to go wage a hopeless war in order to get back a few shiny rocks which had been stolen.

The Warhammer high elves remind me of Tolkien's Noldor, for which I am thankful. In most games/media/etc., elves tend to come off as pansies. I don't know too much about the Warhammer Lore, but from what I've seen of the elves, they have a great mix of anger, wisdom, tragedy, nobility, and ability to destroy people when it comes down to fighting.

That being said, I'm guessing there'll still be far too many "Legolamb"s and "Drizz'l"s. Ah well... they make great targets to focus on during RvR.

[Kawnal]

I think it's important that people don't assume that just because the elves are very human-like, shiney and for the most part decent, that they are a shining beacon of civilization. The elves vicuously look down on anything non-elvish. They look at humans the way that an adult looks at a todler. They consider the dwarfs an enemy, the current alliance is purely of necissity. The high elves have one goal: Protecting Ulthuan, they will do whatever it takes to achieve that goal, if that means slaughtering human babies then they will do it without mercy.

[Brass Soul]

They would probably work with the Tomb Kings if need be, since they really have no reason to dislike each other, but the elves would probably find the very fact they are undead offensive, and the Tomb Kings just really don't like working with anyone.

Heres a funny thing. I'm a lore junky for the oft-misunderstood Tomb Kings (Even though I never really got into playing Fantasy I looooooooved Tomb Kings lore.) The issue people have with negotiating with the Tomb Kings is actually this. The Tomb Cities are populated by -hundreds- of individual Kings, each with a fully equipped standing army.

Every Tomb City is the Rival of the other Tomb Cities. The only uniting factor of the Tomb Kings are charismatic leaders like Settra the Imperishable and the titanic armies those "King of Kings" types wield. Settra set out a mandate that while one Tomb King guards his City, the others rest. They rotate every so often in order to keep the Armies of a relatively good state of readiness. As the Guarding King changes, the disposition of the ruling party can change radically. One King might have been your best friend, but his replacement had lost a war to your great great grandpa and therefore hates your guts, or just isn't on speaking terms. If you want to deal with Tomb Kings for any length of time, you have to be willing to constantly renegotiate, and make certain concessions (Such as the return of stolen property. The Tomb Kings have been -repeatedly- robbed by -every Race- in Warhammer lore due to their obscene wealth and the fact that well, they are dead people after all. But then, dead people can hold grudges -forever-!) Also, you'd have to deal with Settra eventually, and he's as egotistical as he is powerful, which the Elves would find offensive because a) He was human and b) He's dead.

There are actually a lot of ways to deal with the Tomb Kings. The Southlands Lizardmen actually have a long-standing trade agreement with the Tomb Kings made waaaaay back when they were still alive. Apparently, the Skinks don't mind dealing with the same people they dealt with thousands of years ago, even if they are undead. The relationship is mostly amicable, although as always there are points of contention they may end up fighting over every so often, but there is no real reason to go to all out war between the two nations.

Wow, rambling. Anyways! High Elves could negotiate with the Tomb Kings, but they don't have the patience to talk down to a corpse like Settra would expect or to reopen talks every time a new Tomb King replaced the old one in every major Tomb City.