High Elves: They really are better than you

[Alluvian_Est-Endrati]

High Elves: They really are better than you

Elitism? Most certainly. However unlike the 'High Elves' of many other fantasy settings, those of Warhammer are different in one important aspect: They can back up their claims to superiority.

More than just "one of the elder races" the High Elves are an evolved lifeform, one that was uplifted into civilization and deep understanding of magic by the Old Ones. The forebears of the Elven race were already quite gifted and magical creatures, some of whom can still be found in certain isolated parts of the world, namely in Ulthuan and Athel Loren. However while the Elven people lost some of their inherent magical nature during their tutelage under the Old Ones, what they gained from the experience far exceeds their previous potential.

As a race the High Elves of Warhammer were civilized (though their culture has not changed much since its peak) long before the other creatures of the world. The next closest race would be the Dwarfs of course, yet even as they were still migrating north and under the instruction of their Ancestor Gods the Elves were already masters of many trades and arts. While in some aspects the Dwarfs are far better craftsmen, the Elves have much longer lives to devote to their trades and can afford to spend hundreds of years perfecting their skills.

While one may visit and marvel at the grand and vast halls of the Dwarfs, their ancient cities beneath the mountains, these austere caverns of stone while beautiful cannot compare to the pure wonder and grandeur of even the simplest Elven city. Widely regarded as some of the most beautiful places upon the world, even those that are at times despoiled by war, the Elves have created for themselves within their island home truly wondrous constructs of skill and magic. While many races are barred from entering many parts of their realm, that which can be visited by outsiders is stunning to behold, graceful cities and towers filled with light and life. Every moment spent there like a waking dream, one that still hods its fair memory even should you pass back into the shadow of the outer world.

Outside of the pawns of the ruinous powers, the High Elves are the supreme wielders of magical force in the Warhammer world. The most powerful and most learned of human Wizards would be equivalent to little more than a novice apprentice among the High Elven Wizards. Also quite unlike the limited humans, High Elves do not have to restrict themselves to wielding but a single wind of magic, nor are they mutated or changed by the touch of magic upon them. Their minds, indeed their very physiology and psyche are well adapted to the utilization of magic. It is because of this that the High Elves have become masters of wielding all of the winds of magic at once, High Magic as it is called, an endeavor that would kill any human wizard who attempted it.

High Magic, which unlike the dark magic practiced by the traitorous Druchii or the pawns of Chaos, is a balanced mixture of all the winds of magic flowing in unison. With their mastery over the flow of magic the great High Elf Wizards have performed amazing feats of magic, everything from traveling vast distances across the breadth of the world in mere moments to banishing entire armies of daemons.

Perhaps one of the greatest, and ultimately most dangerous achievements of the High Elves in the realm of magic was the creation of the Vortex. During the first great incursion of Chaos, when the polar gates ripped open and daemons flooded across the face of the world, it was the elves alone who withstood the tide of darkness and forestalled the destruction of the world. The greatest magi of their time managed to devise a plan to drain the magical energies spilling forth from the gates back out of the world. By doing so the vast armies of the dark powers could no longer sustain themselves and they dissipated into nothingness.

Magic alone is not the sum of the High Elves accomplishments. In the arts of war they are nearly unmatched, becoming highly proficient with the use of bows, swords, spears and a multitude of other weapons. Some of the finest mounted cavalry in the world comes not from the great Knights of fair Bretonnia but rather from among the High Elves. Horse and rider train together for many years, forming a bond that borders on the mystical. Elven horses are highly prized and not for sale at any price, so beloved are they by their people. Sadly many of these fine creatures are stolen away by the Druchii during their raids to be corrupted into the service of their own horsemen.

At one time the High Elves of Ulthuan could even command and ride out to war upon the backs of the great dragons. However over the years a great many of these beasts have been slain and no new young have been hatched to replace those lost. The aging dragons have grown steadily more lethargic over the years, becoming more and more difficult to rouse form their slumber except in the most dire of needs.

For all their talents though, some among the High Elves are keenly aware that their race is dwindling. The civil war between themselves and their darker kin sees no sign of abating and new threats to the stability of the world continue to arise. Thus many years ago the High Elves took it upon themselves to ally with some of the humans, a race in which they perceived a great potential. Guided carefully humans could become a great ally with them against Chaos and other threats, yet more dire was the threat of them devolving into followers of Chaos and descending deeper into darkness should nothing be done.

The arts of magic were thus taught to the humans of the Empire by the High Elves, safe ways to manipulate the winds of magic without becoming subject to the lure and corruption of Chaos. While changes still would occur to the wielders of this power, such marks were proof of their dedication and use of but a single 'pure' wind of magic.

The great power of the High Elves now rests not in any beast, be they horse or dragon, but rather in the people themselves. However in this their race finds its greatest challenge for while many nobly give of themselves, taking up arms against the threats against their people, yet others sit and do nothing. Caught up in the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed, or too jaded from the politics of the court at home or even blind or not wishing to see the danger that is poised to their very way of life. Though their numbers are not what they were in ages past, the Elven people are still one of the great forces of the world and should they be roused as a nation to act, there is little they could not accomplish.

In this new Age of Reckoning the Elves face a threat to their very existence unlike many before. While they have long withstood attacks by their dark kin as well as the occasional assaults by Greenskins, Chaos or other forces, the storm of war that now threatens to sweep the world over is one unlike any seen before. The peril to the High Elves is once again as great as in the elder days with the first coming of Chaos and while the days of the conflict are still few, many of their people have slowly begun to rouse themselves from their daily illusion and to understand that war is upon them.

[Ghrond]

High Elves: They really are better than you

...

Perhaps one of the greatest, and ultimately most dangerous achievements of the High Elves in the realm of magic was the creation of the Vortex. During the first great incursion of Chaos, when the polar gates ripped open and daemons flooded across the face of the world, it was the elves alone who withstood the tide of darkness and forestalled the destruction of the world. The greatest magi of their time managed to devise a plan to drain the magical energies spilling forth from the gates back out of the world. By doing so the vast armies of the dark powers could no longer sustain themselves and they dissipated into nothingness.

...



"The elves alone"? They were sieged on Ulthuan whilst the Lizardmen purged most of the world of deamons. "forestalled the destruction of the world"? I think not. I mean its not as if they single handedly wiped out a continent full of deamons like Chiccotta of Zlatlan. Or kept the winds of magic themselfs as bay.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Also i'm a bit sad about the biasedness of this post, Dwarfs are truly the better craftsmen, it's lore proven and Dwarfs helped alot when Chaos swept over the Old World as well

[Ghrond]

Indeed. Although if this is meant to be "in character" then it probably holds true as the High Elf version of History.

On a side note I must say I personaly think the dwarves should have a much bigger grudge with the Lizardmen as it was them that caused the great earthquakes in the Worlds Edge Mountains which started the great dwarven dicline.

[Saerain]

It is only arrogance if you are wrong.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Indeed. Although if this is meant to be "in character" then it probably holds true as the High Elf version of History.

On a side note I must say I personaly think the dwarves should have a much bigger grudge with the Lizardmen as it was them that caused the great earthquakes in the Worlds Edge Mountains which started the great dwarven dicline.

True on both account but sadly the Dwarfs did not know of the Lizardmen at that time, they probably still do nt know of the lizardmen, also all Dwarf feel it was just a horribale natural disiaster

[Thoden Firehammer]

It is only arrogance if you are wrong.


Yes and we all know how arrogant the Elves are.

[Saerain]

If poorly roleplayed, I suppose.

In the lore, the Druchii have certainly expressed arrogance, but the Asur are proud.

Like yourselves.

[Thoden Firehammer]

If poorly roleplayed, I suppose.

In the lore, the Druchii have certainly expressed arrogance, but the Asur are proud.

Like yourselves.


True but we all know the OP post was shown from the High Elf point of view, it is in the lore that evne though the Dwarfs do not live as long as the elves, they still are the better craftsmen, this is also the basis of their society. So anything buit by a Dwarf should either rival or surpass anything built by a High Elf, i'm not being bias i'm only telling you the lore.

[Ghrond]

It is only arrogance if you are wrong.

And indeed he is.

[Thalion]

Is it really so hard to see we are better than all of you?
Seriously.

[Thoden Firehammer]

True but we all know the OP post was shown from the High Elf point of view, it is in the lore that evne though the Dwarfs do not live as long as the elves, they still are the better craftsmen, this is also the basis of their society. So anything buit by a Dwarf should either rival or surpass anything built by a High Elf, i'm not being bias i'm only telling you the lore.

Read it, then read the lore, then go cry in a corner becuase you know you're hiding behind a lie :P

But really, though i walk through the valley of arrogant elves fear no insults or stupid remarks for I have my lore and my pride with me.

[Thalion]

Read it, then read the lore, then go cry in a corner becuase you know you're hiding behind a lie :P

But really, though i walk through the valley of arrogant elves fear no insults or stupid remarks for I have my lore and my pride with me.

Did you just tell yourself you are hiding behind a lie? lol
When we say we are better we have a reason... :rolleyes:
;)

[Thoden Firehammer]

Did you just tell yourself you are hiding behind a lie? lol
No I was telling the arrogant elf who just can't stand to face the truth.
You wont win in an argument with me, especily when i'm right :P

Now go pick some flowers somewhere and let the men discuss this... oh wait!! you are a lad, I almost couldn't quite tell there, you know your kind looking so much like your women :P

[Ghrond]

Did you just tell yourself you are hiding behind a lie? lol
When we say we are better we have a reason... :rolleyes:
;)

Please. You're edging this towards a flame war which we do not want.

The OP may or may not have been portraying The Fall through a High Elf perspective. Regardless some of his details contradict canon. "That are fact innit'. " as the plumber says.

[Thalion]

No I was telling the arrogant elf who just can't stand to face the truth.
You wont win in an argument with me, especily when i'm right :P

Now go pick some flowers somewhere and let the men discuss this... oh wait!! you are a lad, I almost couldn't quite tell there, you know your kind looking so much like your women :P

Dude you just quoted yourself... and said you are hiding behind a lie.. But no need to argue, discuss with the men as you will.

[Thoden Firehammer]

You obviosuly didn't read read my post that, I quoted myself saying for you to read it then I ended it with a comma it's this little thing right here ( , ) that gamaticaly made a pause in my sentence, which means that, that quote and what I typed before the comma ment a certain thing and everything after the comma ment another thing.

[Ghrond]

Stop before you're e-peens get chafed. Both of you.

Argueing get you nowhere.

[Vikingkingq]

Just to reply to the topic:

I tend to view the High Elves through the lens of the British Empire in it's declining years, because I think the two nations tend to approach some things similarly, and I think the history of the British Empire probably influenced GW's designers.

The High Elves are arrogant because of the longevity of their people and their experience in world affairs. When they think they know better than humans regarding magic, in no small part it's because they remember the sacrifice of the Vortex, the Sundering caused by Malekith, and they fear what would happen if the same power should fall into hands they believe to be less steady then their own. When they think they know better regarding the threat of Chaos, it's because they remember the Great Chaos Incursion and the example of Aenarion as to how the struggle against evil can lead you into evil.

Yet, despite the fact that Elven power is on the wane, they still remain one of the most altruistic peoples in the world, willing to send forth their own to help fight the forces of Evil - Skaven in Tilea, Chaos in the Empire, Druchii everywhere - even without the requirement of signed treaties. Ironically, the same characteristic that makes them arrogant, their self-image as a superior people, is what makes them altruistic - for no superior people would let evil run amok without doing something about it.

That being said, I think some of the naysayers are over-reacting:

Thoden - the post states that "While in some aspects the Dwarfs are far better craftsmen."
Moreover, your approach to lore, while it accepts the fact that Elf lore is written from a biased perspective, fails to accept that the same is true of the Dwarfs. ALL lore written by GW is designed to be biased and contradictory, revealing the perspective of the race in question. You can't apply that to one set of Lore and not the others.

As for the Great Chaos Incursion, the creation of the Vortex is an unassailable fact. While the Slann did indeed contribute greatly to the survival of the world, it is Vortex in particular that allowed the Old World to survive.

[Ghrond]

Just to reply to the topic:

...

As for the Great Chaos Incursion, the creation of the Vortex is an unassailable fact. While the Slann did indeed contribute greatly to the survival of the world, it is Vortex in particular that allowed the Old World to survive.

True but in no way was it the High Elves alone that saved the day.

[Vikingkingq]

True but in no way was it the High Elves alone that saved the day.

By no means, but you must admit it was a crucial act, without which the world would have been destroyed. Not the only one, but worthy of admiration nonetheless.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Just to reply to the topic:

I tend to view the High Elves through the lens of the British Empire in it's declining years, because I think the two nations tend to approach some things similarly, and I think the history of the British Empire probably influenced GW's designers.

The High Elves are arrogant because of the longevity of their people and their experience in world affairs. When they think they know better than humans regarding magic, in no small part it's because they remember the sacrifice of the Vortex, the Sundering caused by Malekith, and they fear what would happen if the same power should fall into hands they believe to be less steady then their own. When they think they know better regarding the threat of Chaos, it's because they remember the Great Chaos Incursion and the example of Aenarion as to how the struggle against evil can lead you into evil.

Yet, despite the fact that Elven power is on the wane, they still remain one of the most altruistic peoples in the world, willing to send forth their own to help fight the forces of Evil - Skaven in Tilea, Chaos in the Empire, Druchii everywhere - even without the requirement of signed treaties. Ironically, the same characteristic that makes them arrogant, their self-image as a superior people, is what makes them altruistic - for no superior people would let evil run amok without doing something about it.

That being said, I think some of the naysayers are over-reacting:

Thoden - the post states that "While in some aspects the Dwarfs are far better craftsmen."
Moreover, your approach to lore, while it accepts the fact that Elf lore is written from a biased perspective, fails to accept that the same is true of the Dwarfs. ALL lore written by GW is designed to be biased and contradictory, revealing the perspective of the race in question. You can't apply that to one set of Lore and not the others.

As for the Great Chaos Incursion, the creation of the Vortex is an unassailable fact. While the Slann did indeed contribute greatly to the survival of the world, it is Vortex in particular that allowed the Old World to survive.


Well I knew this but I was also basing my argument that
1. Dwarfs on the TT were for the most part the best armored army, Gromril used to be the best till GW decided to balance it out

2. The Empire views both Elven work and Dwarfen work to be superior to theirs.

3. Call me biased but I get an odd feeling that the Dwarf lore is somewhat less biased than the elven lore. Yes Dwarfs have pride but they are not as arrogant as the Elves, also Dwarfs have a strong hatred for liars, and anything that might be dishonorable.

I will take my point to the War of Vengence, or in the elf lore the War of the Beard.
in it the elves said that they let openeds their doors for the Dwarf king allowed in their port city and late at night the king "betrayed" their trust and pulled a trojan horse manouver. Now for a normal person they may look at this and say "heh alright" But this is one thing Dwarfs just don't do, it's based in their culture to uphold their honor and their word.

4.Dwarfs strive for their whole lives perfecting 1 to two arts .. as Elves which are not immortal strive for their whole longer lives to perfect many arts.

[Pendrako]

Also i'm a bit sad about the biasedness of this post, Dwarfs are truly the better craftsmen, it's lore proven...
Anything made from stone, metal or black powder, sure. Except maybe swords. And musical instruments. Everything else belongs to the Elves.

And yes, you've been incredibly biased throughout the entire course of this thread ;)

But I will say that the title of this thread is a massive generalization - not all elves are dashing superheroes.

[Vikingkingq]

Well I knew this but I was also basing my argument that
1. Dwarfs on the TT were for the most part the best armored army, Gromril used to be the best till GW decided to balance it out
2. The Empire views both Elven work and Dwarfen work to be superior to theirs.

Yes. But how was the OP disputing this?


3. Call me biased but I get an odd feeling that the Dwarf lore is somewhat less biased than the elven lore. Yes Dwarfs have pride but they are not as arrogant as the Elves, also Dwarfs have a strong hatred for liars, and anything that might be dishonorable.

I will take my point to the War of Vengence, or in the elf lore the War of the Beard.
in it the elves said that they let openeds their doors for the Dwarf king allowed in their port city and late at night the king "betrayed" their trust and pulled a trojan horse manouver. Now for a normal person they may look at this and say "heh alright" But this is one thing Dwarfs just don't do, it's based in their culture to uphold their honor and their word.


On the contrary, the Dwarfs have been known to alter their histories to fit their self-perception and avoid embarrassing facts - witness the writing out of the Chaos Dwarfs from the Dwarven history books. Moreover, Dwarfs are not always the most perceptive of people - they often jump to conclusions based on their emotional state at the time.

How do you know that didn't happen? After all, the Dwarf king in question was avenging the death of his son, and Dwarfs enacting vengeance have a habit of abandoning their former scruples. Alternatively, the two sides might have disagreed on the meaning of the terms of the truce. Alternatively, someone of less moral uprightness on the High King's staff might have engineered the incident motivated by hatred against the High Elves that had been stirred up by the war.

The point is this: no society in the world is ever fully faithful to its ideals, and the Dwarfs are not an exception. There are Dwarfs who stray from the path of honor, sometimes for good reasons and sometimes for bad reasons, but to assume it never happens is not logical.

[wellsy]

Thoden, thats twice now. You don't need to have the last word on everything. Learn to keep your tongue, or I'll shave of your beard as Caledor did to the foolish Dwarf Ambassador who dared draw his axe in the presence of the Pheonix King!

Some guests you dwarfs can be...

Ghrond, the Vortex on Ulthuan played a large role in draining the winds of Chaos from the world, isolating it at the poles. Albion has a similar system. That the Slann fought great battle against the daemons is something Elves generally do not deny. But, it was the selfless actions of the Archmagi who, to this day, have maintained the spell to keep both Ulthuan afloat, and the winds of Chaos isolated, that truly saved the world.

For, though many daemons were slain, they continued to return. Not even the Slann could stand against an undying horde. The winds had to be drained, or the world would have been lost to Chaos long ago (and we wouldn't have WAR).

[arthurfoxshot]

Thalion, yes it is really hard to see that the high elfllings are better because if there so much better why did't they win the war.

[Linkusmax]

Neither did the Dwarves really, It was a big contributer to the downward spiral of the dwarven race (losing so many holds and the wiping out of so many clans.)

[arthurfoxshot]

Neither did the Dwarves really, It was a big contributer to the downward spiral of the dwarven race (losing so many holds and the wiping out of so many clans.)

The dwarfs did have alot of losses, and at the start of the war they were loseing.
But the dwarf king slew the high elf king and sent them back to there islands and the dwarfs would have carried on and would take more of the elflling cities but other problems came up so they went back to there holds.

[Grrblt]

Thalion, yes it is really hard to see that the high elfllings are better because if there so much better why did't they win the war.

Elves didn't win the war because the elven king issued the order to all his kind not to attack any dwarf that didn't attack them first.

[Jhayden]

Im confused. Are people getting offended by this High Elf propoganda for real? I mean, I guess they could be staying in character, but I doubt a Dwarf would say "go cry in a corner" and then emote with a :P ...im so confused.

[Vikingkingq]

Thalion, yes it is really hard to see that the high elfllings are better because if there so much better why did't they win the war.

Well, look at the Hundred Years War. The English were thoroughly dominating throughout until the last twenty years. A similar thing happens here, the Elves win for the first part, but gradually get worn down.

Moreover, there's the issue of the death of Caledor II. Many Asur blamed him for forcing an unnecessary war, so when he died, it was a chance to change policy. Keep in mind that the new Phoenix King could have called upon all High Elf colonies around the world to total mobilization to continue the war, since the High Elves at this time still had colonies in the new world and island outposts around the world, but instead the new Phoenix King recalled all of the High Elves on the mainland of the Old World to meet the Druchii invasion.

It's worth noting that substantial colonies of High Elves were still in existence in the Old World - the Asrai who dwell in Athel Loren and Laurelorn, for example, are the descendants of High Elf colonies who refused the order to abandon their homes.

And the Dwarfs actually have a terrible record against the Asrai.

[Vaeronthar]

You've also got to take into account that dwarfs live in gigantic mountain fortresses and were on the defensive more often then not. Huge mountain fortresses beat the camps the elves built outside them.

[Ghrond]

...

Ghrond, the Vortex on Ulthuan played a large role in draining the winds of Chaos from the world, isolating it at the poles. Albion has a similar system. That the Slann fought great battle against the daemons is something Elves generally do not deny. But, it was the selfless actions of the Archmagi who, to this day, have maintained the spell to keep both Ulthuan afloat, and the winds of Chaos isolated, that truly saved the world.

For, though many daemons were slain, they continued to return. Not even the Slann could stand against an undying horde. The winds had to be drained, or the world would have been lost to Chaos long ago (and we wouldn't have WAR).

No need to flood with the lore i'm quite aware that it was the decisive blow against chaos.
All i'm saying is that without the magical boundaries held up by the slann and the massive military might of the Lizardmen the High Elves would be screwed. Likewise I aknowlage that the Lizardmen would be equally screwed if the High Elves had never conjoured the Vortex.

You have to agree that the OP's fluff is very flawed in saying that the High Elves defeated chaos on their own. Heck the Slann even helped them with the Vortex, not to mention drawing the demon legions towards it to be destroyed.

[wellsy]

From an honest perspective, yes, the OP is being very liberal with the truth (and me being an honest fellow can't really accept a half-truth and tell it convincingly). But from what you said, I was getting the impression that the Lizardmen did all the work and the Elves took the credit.

It's hardly the first time I've been wrong (dear heavens, a High Elf admitting his own flaws?! Blasphemy! :rolleyes:).

[Ghrond]

Well the Lizardmen TT army book sure makes it seem as if they did the majority of fighting. Now with Lizardmen being cold blooded and indifferent creatures it doesn't make sense for that to be biased so I'm assuming they realy did do most of the work.

[GrandOne]

Well the Lizardmen TT army book sure makes it seem as if they did the majority of fighting. Now with Lizardmen being cold blooded and indifferent creatures it doesn't make sense for that to be biased so I'm assuming they realy did do most of the work.

It also states : This doom (daemons and stuff destroying everything) was averted by the selfless actions of the Elves of Ulthuan....Unselfishly dooming their most powerful mages to an eternity of torment for the benefit of the entire world

[Ghrond]

Yes it does.

I never said the Lizardmen did everything on their own, nor that the High Elves did nothing.

I'm saying that the TT army book makes it seem as if the Lizardmen and Slann did most of the fighting whilst the High Elves were being driven close to extinction on Ulthuan.

I'm not denying that the vortex saved the day.

[Vikingkingq]

Well the Lizardmen TT army book sure makes it seem as if they did the majority of fighting. Now with Lizardmen being cold blooded and indifferent creatures it doesn't make sense for that to be biased so I'm assuming they realy did do most of the work.

HAH! Rule of thumb about TT Army books - everyone's biased. Even the cold blooded people.
The Lizardmen think of themselves as most favored of the Old Ones, the oldest and best race in the world, the ones with the plan. You think they'd admit that a younger race was more important than them in the fight against Chaos?

[GrandOne]

Well the Lizardmen did slaughter countless millions of demons.. How many did the elves kill by fighting?

But they are pretty equal, without them both, the world would have been destroyed

[Ghrond]

HAH! Rule of thumb about TT Army books - everyone's biased. Even the cold blooded people.
The Lizardmen think of themselves as most favored of the Old Ones, the oldest and best race in the world, the ones with the plan. You think they'd admit that a younger race was more important than them in the fight against Chaos?

I struggle to find the TT army book biased, I think you would as well.

Not by any means the "best" race - to draw such a distinction would be foolish - but certainly the oldest and wisest, and as such I think that yes, they would admit the importance of the High Elves, heck they already do.

[Nerothos]

And this thread demonstrates the beauty of the Warhammer universe.

Tonnes of fans and lore fanatics at each other's throats defending the race they love/play.

Isn't it wonderful? :D

[Ashnari Doomsong]

Wood Elves are superior!
*Shakes fist*

Of course, if the players' initiative in Nemesis Crown becomes official, it will further contribute to the ridicolousness of fluff these days...

[jkdfhk]

Chaos!!! Ftw!!!

[Noesis]

Great article.

And for all you people bashing on the OP. You just have to take into consideration that this is a high elf writing the article...

;)

Of course he will be biased.

To bad the tabletop game doesn't reflect the high elves greatness -_-

[Thoden Firehammer]

And this thread demonstrates the beauty of the Warhammer universe.

Tonnes of fans and lore fanatics at each other's throats defending the race they love/play.

Isn't it wonderful? :D

Yeah and good thing I decided to stop discussing this before it exploded.
It seem the Dwarfs are the more intelligent after all >.>

[Noesis]

well regardless. I certainly do hope mythic makes the high elves as cool as the original poster's depictions.

The rest of order has less character flavor than daytime television. High elves are my last hope before I give myself to Chaos...

:cry:

[Duncan]

Hey Guys,

I’m new to the Forums, but have been reading warhammer alliance for a couple weeks or so, ever since I got the WAR bug.

Having played the High Elves in TT, and having a friend play dwarfs, we’ve had this argument many times...

If memory serves me correctly (and it very well may not), I remember a story in the High Elf book discussing the War of Vengeance / Beard. It mentioned a Dark Elf war party raiding the coasts and they came across a contingent of young dwarves (beardlings?) and dwarf women. The dark elf war party killed / captured most of the dwarves, but they were wearing High Elf livery while doing so, and craft fully left evidence that would point to their good cousins.

Once finding out about this travesty, the Dwarf Lord sent an emissary to the Phoenix King on Ulthulan. Dwarfs, not being known for their patience or tact, immediately accused the High Elves of the deed and drew his weapon. This, being an insult to the Phoenix king, was cause for an unfortunate, but necessary lesson in manners (I’ll give you some elf arrogance here, but dwarf lack of foresight is much more damaging) and so the beard was shaved, the war began and escalated out of control. As to who won the war, in my opinion, both sides lost.

We all know the rest, though I thought it was funny how in the Elf book it states when the Phoenix King is fighting the Dwarf Lord, “He had more then one opportunity to strike down the dwarf.” whereas in the Dwarf edition, the Phoenix King hides in his tower, and begs for his life before the Dwarf cuts him down and steels the crown. My own views favor the Elf version, its hard to picture the phoenix king, a elf who has to walk through blue fire and ruling one of the most ancient Warhammer races to “hide in his tower’, a little too much exaggeration (un-doubtfully from too much dwarf beer).

That being said, I now play and love Bretonnia and I hope they make it into WAR one of these days. Mounted combat ftw J

[Noesis]

Duncan,

Has Games Workshop finally made the High Elves not suck so much giant wang yet?

Have they finally revised the High Elf army book?

[Duncan]

haha
i never thought the HE sucked, it was tough to win with em at times, always being outnumbered and your heroes with that leet T3 trash (even tyrion?! wtf?). But Ill tell you what was nice with them in 6th edition, their elite troops really were the best. Swordmasters are simply amazing, white lions with a general in there, money. Solid calvary, solid core troops, and badass majic made for a formidable opponet, as long as you played smart.

thing is you were ALWAYS outnumbered (unless fighting chaos) but theres a quality there that appeals to some people, the age old question of quantity vs quality. Give me Swordmasters, HE Spearmen, White Lions, Dragon Princes, Ellyrion Reavers over goblins and orcs any day (even with T4, and even outnumbered 3 to 1).

I have many times thought about startin up a small High Army again, just because its easy to paint (naturally not too many models), but my Bretonnians are far from done and im still pretty damn happy with em.

So Aside from the T3 Elves that cost a billion points each, they really are tough to beat when ya play em well. I think they are being re done for 7th Edition, theres a picture of a Chariot being pulled by two Lions that looks bad*ss. Long story short, give em a shot. A cool trick i would do in a 2k point game is put my general in with white lions so they are stubborn, give my St.Bearer the lions pride honor and throw him in with Swordmasters, and you have two really tough to beat, stubborn with a high leadership units.


haha but i could talk all day about tactics and such for the TT, especially how to beat said elves with a glorious charge from Bretonnias finest.

[Linkusmax]

New Rule book is coming out in November and sources indicate the High Elves are going to be alot harder (All High elves strike first in combat even when charged, More Dragons, Lion Chariots, 2 Attack Swordmasters.)

[Nerothos]

And, as I've stated on Asur.org, army wide strike first is a lazy and stupid way to buff the army, as it removes the importance of the movement phase.

"Failed charge? Oh well, I strike first anyway. HAHA!"

[Linkusmax]

Not really, Charging still has bonus's for certain units, all signs point to the fact if you flank them they do not get strike first and because elves are T3 they still have to pick when and where to fight to do well. Then there are things like positining for overrun etc etc.

It might remove the importance of the movement phase for BAD players.

[Noesis]

And, as I've stated on Asur.org, army wide strike first is a lazy and stupid way to buff the army, as it removes the importance of the movement phase.

"Failed charge? Oh well, I strike first anyway. HAHA!"

Agreed. I think the only thing the High Elves in TT really need is an upgrade to their cavalry, and make the bloody archers shoot with all ranks for chrissake.

High Elf silver helms are just too damn weak and dragon princes are too pricey for what they do.

I've seen rank and file chode troops (and im talking skaven slaves) easily withstand a charge from 3 ranks of silver helms. Give me a break. Silver helms are a joke. I'm not saying they should be able to break lines like chaos knights, but for gods sake they should be able to not embarrass themselves every time they aren't flanking with a block of 30+ spearmen for support.

High elf spearmen blocks rock btw.

[Linkusmax]

Agreed. I think the only thing the High Elves in TT really need is an upgrade to their cavalry, and make the bloody archers shoot with all ranks for chrissake.

High Elf silver helms are just too damn weak and dragon princes are too pricey for what they do.

I've seen rank and file chode troops (and im talking skaven slaves) easily withstand a charge from 3 ranks of silver helms. Give me a break. Silver helms are a joke. I'm not saying they should be able to break lines like chaos knights, but for gods sake they should be able to not embarrass themselves every time they aren't flanking with a block of 30+ spearmen for support.

High elf spearmen blocks rock btw.

Yeah thats why every single High Elf general I have seen who does well uses a cavalry based force.

in the current army book, Cavalry > Infantry.

3 Ranks of Silver Helms? I normaly wouldn't use more then 6 helms (10-12 if with the Battle Banner)

[Duncan]

With Bretonnia id be a shade more hesistant to charge a block of spearmen (without flank support that is) with the Lance if the elves strike first, but even still, the charge aint bad, if only for the bonuses for chargin (str and such).

Hypothetically speaking
20 HE spearmen in 6th ed. Army book = 250 points
9 Knights of the Realm in 6th Ed. = 240 points

Brets Charge:
Lets say 16 attacks from ninja fast High Elves against Knights of the Realm, half of em hit (8, WS4 vs WS4)and half those wound (S3 VS T3), 2+ save with no modifier maybe one dead knight?

So now the Brets get to go, 7 Attacks, assuming one guy dies. half hit, round up though cuz im a lucky man. so 4 hit, 2+ to wound and no armor save...Then take the Horsies, thats another 6 Attacks, hit on 4s wound on 4s save on 5s....your looking at 3-7 dead elves easy. So on the low end, 17 Elves remaining, and 8 Knights remaining, thats outnumbered (By one elf) and the elves have one more rank....knights still win. Stupid High leadership means they probably will pass, but hey look at those pegasus knights on the flanks O.o

Now if that were a Unit of Swordmasters or White Lions.....yikes, different story (hello peasent Bowmen!)

Truth be told i never liked fighting High Elves (majic and stubborn = b*tch + Good fighting good was boring). Dark Elves on the other hand made a satisfying crunch under the horses of Bretonnia.

Long story short, All units going first is a damn good buff for the HE's and one that should not be taken lightly, but on the other hand should be over estimated.

[Noesis]

pegasus knights are crazy Duncan, but if some of the rumors of the High Elf army books are true...

You might have to contend with High Elf Drake riders, Lion pulled chariots, and better high elf cavalry...

Hell. I am seriously considering getting back into TT when High Elves are released in November. Wouldn't that be something.

[Linkusmax]

There aren't any Drake riders.

Theres a Dragon Mage who rumours indicate can ride a small Dragon (Combat mage with armour and a sword)

[Noesis]

There aren't any Drake riders.

Theres a Dragon Mage who rumours indicate can ride a small Dragon (Combat mage with armour and a sword)

damn you for ruining my fantasy... :evil:

[SirSeptin]

*snicker* I always love it how well a few comments about High Elf awesomeness hit their mark. I say everyone gets so upset about it because they feel inferior to the unassailable brillance of us Asur. The truth often causes more outcry than falsehood.

;)

[Thorval]

I'd like to be a elitist, , blonde, and kinda smexy any day (which I kind of am in real life) but there's just something about the ruddy and smelly streets of Altdorf which whisper "kommen sie hier" into my ear. I somehow can't resist old germanic buildings stacked on top of eachother and stray dogs chasing eachother down alley ways while some homeless person sifts through garbage, and at the same time having people guilty of dealing with chaos hang at the end of a bloody rope while followers of Sigmar chant before the crowds.

[Sobek]

Poor Lizardmen never get any credit. I understand what the original poster was doing but could you at least say "One of the greatest magical powers in the world." instead? I mean, I realize that causing the collapse of the dwarf empire in one day and being able to best most every mage in the world even when your a dessicated mummy doesn't mean a whole lot...:p

Just kidding. You High Elves certainly have every right to that arrogance. At least until Mythic introduces the Lizardmen. Boy I can't wait. You get the uberness of elves without the fruitiness. Woot.

Edit: Don't forget altering the orbit of the entire planet. Thats pretty cool too. Even if you elves have your precious dragons and fancy cities...

[Tiervexx]

"The elves alone"? They were sieged on Ulthuan whilst the Lizardmen purged most of the world of deamons. "forestalled the destruction of the world"? I think not. I mean its not as if they single handedly wiped out a continent full of deamons like Chiccotta of Zlatlan. Or kept the winds of magic themselfs as bay.

Exactly.

The Slann are basicly what the High Elves think they are.

[Saerain]

Now go pick some flowers somewhere and let the men discuss this... oh wait!! you are a lad, I almost couldn't quite tell there, you know your kind looking so much like your women :P Careful, there. That same comment is so easily turned around.

[Yavvy]

Careful, there. That same comment is so easily turned around.
Beard or no beard - easy difference to see.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Careful, there. That same comment is so easily turned around.

Sorry but no it can't. Dwarf women in Warhammer don't have beards :P
And even if they did, I personaly would never want to be mistaken as a lass

Beard or no beard - easy difference to see.

See this 'ere lad actulehs know more than yeh elf. Thars yet another blow t' yer ignorance..uh I mean arrogance!

[Ashnari Doomsong]

On the other hand, though, dwarf women *do* have an awfully masculine physique...

[Thoden Firehammer]

On the other hand, though, dwarf women *do* have an awfully masculine physique...

http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/nov06fd_05.jpg
Masculine, yeh call that masculine? ... Well I guess yeh could call them masculine compair'd t' yer kind since entire races looks like nutin but a bunch o' weak anorexic lasses

[VeriusCarth]

And dwarves look like chubby little logs with legs, female or male. You also look like mangy animals, covered in such hair. Almost makes me think you're trying to grow yourselves some fine carpets with your beards. At least, that's what we use them for. :)

Besides, you're just tiny little hooligans with beer. Easiest way is just to turn you somewhere else, and tell you to run along.

:D

I will give hammerers points for the whole kneecaps thing. That's pretty cool.

[Atavistic]

Dwarves are in general quite reserved, true they might get a little rowdy when pickled but I'd like to see a pointy eared stick insect try to imbibe as much alcohol :)

[Yavvy]

See this 'ere lad actulehs know more than yeh elf. Thars yet another blow t' yer ignorance..uh I mean arrogance!Lad! I'm a lass!

But since ye can't see me, I'll let ye go this once. *sharpens axe and builds grudge*

[Tiervexx]

http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/nov06fd_05.jpg
Masculine, yeh call that masculine? ... Well I guess yeh could call them masculine compared t' yer kind since entire races looks like nutin but a bunch o' weak anorexic lasses

I agree, it's not a masculine physique until your arms are as wide as your face! I've achieved this IRL =D

[Thoden Firehammer]

Lad! I'm a lass!

But since ye can't see me, I'll let ye go this once. *sharpens axe and builds grudge*


Bah! yeh can't blame meh, yeh don't realeh 'ave a female picture, nor is yer name 'elpfull.

*chuckles*

[Baradun]

Bah the elves can keep their fancy architecture, dainty arms crafting an' namby pamby finger wigglin' magic, give me the comfort of a cold steel hammer weighted in me grasp, the halls of 8 peaks and a few thousand of me Dawi allys chargin' in runed armour blazin' at our hour of victory.

[AKASlaphappy]

Lad! I'm a lass!

But since ye can't see me, I'll let ye go this once. *sharpens axe and builds grudge*

Well now I know not to get on your bad side.....do not want to get entered into your book of grudge.....*looks at very sharp axe and walks away quickly*

[Dasquigman]

* Edited for Content *

[Ashnari Doomsong]

Ahum. Check the link in my signature if you want to see what I mean when saying that even Dwarf men are somewhat... dodgy.

[PlagueLord]

True but we all know the OP post was shown from the High Elf point of view, it is in the lore that evne though the Dwarfs do not live as long as the elves, they still are the better craftsmen, this is also the basis of their society. So anything buit by a Dwarf should either rival or surpass anything built by a High Elf, i'm not being bias i'm only telling you the lore.

this is the high elf forum, what do you expect.

[killuall]

high elves are not even superior to my foot! why? 'cuz your not green like 'da boyz!

[Thorval]

high elves are not even superior to my foot! why? 'cuz your not green like 'da boyz!

Sorry that we're not green like fecal matter after a bad bowl of split pea soup.

Elves are really the greatest race in the game lore wise. They have the highest intellect, have a very logical thinking process, and, next to dwarves, are the most honorable race.

[wis]

Didn't know where to put this in. But here goes

This picture (http://www.enl.party-site.at/gc-coverage/11.jpg) Has some quick Barnett information for the people at the gen con. But it has some wrong information in it.

It says they are consumed by hatred for eachother. Now as far as i know about the High Elves they do not let feelings go to the extreme and hate is something which is avoided let alone being consumed by it would lead to darker paths i would imagine. I remember something about Teclis describing an encounter with Orcs where he says that he does not hate them but do feel a kind of "battle feeling" when fighting them.

[VeriusCarth]

Didn't know where to put this in. But here goes

This picture (http://www.enl.party-site.at/gc-coverage/11.jpg) Has some quick Barnett information for the people at the gen con. But it has some wrong information in it.

It says they are consumed by hatred for eachother. Now as far as i know about the High Elves they do not let feelings go to the extreme and hate is something which is avoided let alone being consumed by it would lead to darker paths i would imagine. I remember something about Teclis describing an encounter with Orcs where he says that he does not hate them but do feel a kind of "battle feeling" when fighting them.

The Shadow Warriors sure hate the Dark Elves, and I can hardly say they're fond of each other at all. They're elves, however, and it'd make sense for them to claim that they don't hate the Dark Elves, even if they do.

[wis]

The Shadow Warriors sure hate the Dark Elves, and I can hardly say they're fond of each other at all. They're elves, however, and it'd make sense for them to claim that they don't hate the Dark Elves, even if they do.

I also read something about their relationship on druchii.net. That is was more a kind of a hate - pity relationships. Sure the Shadow Elfs from the Shadowlands are the more darker of the Asur. But that the common Asur feels pity for their Dark Elf counsins and when they kill them they see it as mercy. But being consumed by hate is not something i can relate to the Asur.

[VeriusCarth]

I also something about their relationship on druchii.net. That is was more a kind of a hate - pity relationships. Sure the Shadow Elfs from the Shadowlands are the more darker of the Asur. But that the common Asur feels pity for their Dark Elf counsins and when they kill them they see it as mercy. But being consumed by hate is not something i can relate to the Asur.

I'll agree with you, but... I'm sure there wouldn't be such light feelings with the Dark Elves invading the High elf lands.

Besides, "The High Elves feel pity for their dark cousins" probably won't sell as well as saying that they're consumed with hate for each other.
It was probably something they just passed by, for marketing purposes. Nothing says it'll stay like that in game.

[Ashnari Doomsong]

Have you been hiding under a rock for the last three thousand years in Warhammer fluff? Dark Elves are always invading Ulthuan in some manner or another. It's almost a matter of routine by now.

Bah, that came off as rude and grumpy. I'm sorry.

[Thoden Firehammer]

this is the high elf forum, what do you expect.
You took it a bit out of context, but whatever.

[VeriusCarth]

Have you been hiding under a rock for the last three thousand years in Warhammer fluff? Dark Elves are always invading Ulthuan in some manner or another. It's almost a matter of routine by now.

Bah, that came off as rude and grumpy. I'm sorry.

Hmm, well, I don't know High Elf lore all that well, honestly. I won't claim to know very much at all, beyond knowing for the most part how they act. I at one point played High Elves, so I know a little, but I never had the codex for myself, or anything like that, so I never got to learn their lore. Even so, I just figure that with a seemingly large scale invasion like this, they wouldn't be so light-hearted about it... but, I guess that's me. :(

[Ashnari Doomsong]

They're elves. They don't get angry at people all of a sudden; in the case of the Dark Elves, I imagine it to be a sort of condescending pity and disgust rather than actual hatred.

[VeriusCarth]

They're elves. They don't get angry at people all of a sudden; in the case of the Dark Elves, I imagine it to be a sort of condescending pity and disgust rather than actual hatred.

Well, like I said. The hatred thing buys more copies than disgust. If people can get behind an idea, it works to their advantage. Making the players want to hate the other elven race respectively can do that, after all, Estebar is on our side because Averlorn is held by the Dark Elves so...

[Revolutionomni]

As I see it, High Elves believe they can both have their cake and eat it too.

While many may not like how High Elves are, they make good sense from a lore standpoint. They also make us reflect on how we become when we set ourselves too high upon a pedestal: overconfident. (Americans and other well off countries apply to this as well.)

The reason I like elves so much is because I like their lore and feel, and want to fight for not only my "homeland" but also against our own elven overconfidence; High Elves might call it "miscalculating." I think it adds another layer to the war/story.

PS: I am an American and yes, we (the American masses) do believe we can have our cake and eat it too. Sadly you can see where that's gotten us. :roll:

PPS: I DIDN'T bring this up for politics/flaming, only showing how High Elves reflect in real life. :wink:

Lastly, I made my signature myself and I believe it reflects how I see High Elves. Hope you like it. :grin:

[Thoden Firehammer]

I think you need to fix your sig a little ..let me help


“You say we elves are condescending, elitists and too calculating for our own good. True possibly. Yet make no misconception, we elves are ancient gifted artists, painting tapestries of life, picking flowers as we dance and protection as we frolic, and death and humiliation of our own as we march. May my blood never be apon my newly washed dress.”

...Couldn't help myself ... you made it too easy.

[Kawnal]

Yes, but are they green?

[Revolutionomni]

I think you need to fix your sig a little ..let me help



...Couldn't help myself ... you made it too easy.


*siiiiigh* It had to be a dwarf that would reply first to my comment. :-|

You know, all the same I look forward to having dwarves at my side time to time. Besides the obvious friction that persists between our races, I can at least commend you honor for your people and land. Oh yes and, better a sturdy dwarf taking hits than me; you seem to look no different covered in dirt. ;)

[Vaeronthar]

Only when they're dying or dead. I'd take that into consideration.

[VeriusCarth]

*siiiiigh* It had to be a dwarf that would reply first to my comment. :-|

You know, all the same I look forward to having dwarves at my side time to time. Besides the obvious friction that persists between our races, I can at least commend you honor for your people and land. Oh yes and, better a sturdy dwarf taking hits than me; you seem to look no different covered in dirt. ;)

You'll have to forgive Thoden, he's decided to set up his bridge in the Elf forums. (I think he's half-troll.) ;)

[Hayden]

I'm surprised the dwarves can come out hiding in their holes long enough to insult the Asur. Aren't you afraid a babble of measly, pathetic scrawny goblins are going to take your hordes of treasure?

The Asur have every right to be the most arrogant in the Warhammer world. One of the first races created, beautiful, adept in magic, architects, enchanters, and they could even charm the beard off one of your err, ladies?

Go on being the best craftsmen of clunky, heavy armor and weapons. The Asur will take everything else.

:cool:

[Thoden Firehammer]

You'll have to forgive Thoden, he's decided to set up his bridge in the Elf forums. (I think he's half-troll.) ;)

... I always wondered why meh mother looked that way ....

Ha! but really, it's so hard not to poke fun at the elves, I mean in truth my culture and my herritage is completly reflected or atleat completly reflected in Dwarfs, since their lore and culture was derived from nothern european cultures, (and I never really liked snobish people)

So Elves are basicly my exact opposite, you wont see me in a dress picking flowers, however I am definitly a thinker, but then again the Dwarfs are as well(elf fans just want to spout their propganda about Dwarfs being half wits) .. I also like tech, I mean I like technological advancement, and yes this is a fantasy setting, but I mean I personaly like tech and I like the fact that the Dwarfs lore wise explore this, I also like the fact that they never break their promisses, they also have a deep sence of honor that I also like.

[Thoden Firehammer]

I'm surprised the dwarves can come out hiding in their holes long enough to insult the Asur. Aren't you afraid a babble of measly, pathetic scrawny goblins are going to take your hordes of treasure?

The Asur have every right to be the most arrogant in the Warhammer world. One of the first races created, beautiful, adept in magic, architects, enchanters, and they could even charm the beard off one of your err, ladies?

Go on being the best craftsmen of clunky, heavy armor and weapons. The Asur will take everything else.

:cool:

((sorry for the doube post))

Bah! keep talkin Elf I got your crown.

We also raised every High Elf town in the Old World, and sent half of your people to hide in a pathetic forest, now go back to your island and hide from your pissed off cousins, I hear thay took Avelorn,

I bet it sounded something like this

http://www.aimelek.com/locker/byebyeavelorn.mp3

[Kawnal]

((sorry for the doube post))

Bah! keep talkin Elf I got your crown.

We also raised every High Elf town in the Old World, and sent half of your people to hide in a pathetic forest, now go back to your island and hide from your pissed off cousins, I hear thay took Avelorn,

I bet it sounded something like this

http://www.aimelek.com/locker/byebyeavelorn.mp3

To be fair, we greenskins sent ALL your people to hide in crumbling caves or seek shelter in human cities... HUMANS :P

Seriously though, the war of the beard (yes im calling it that) was basically a draw. Niether side won. The only reason the dawi made gains in the old world was because the DEs assaulted Ulthuan, forcing the HE to defend their island. Soon Dwarfs were being ripped apart by the endless green tide of orcs which would continue until Sigmar's time.

[Thoden Firehammer]

To be fair, we greenskins sent ALL your people to hide in pathetic caves or seek shelter in human cities... HUMANS :P

Seriously though, the war of the beard (yes im calling it that) was basically a draw. Niether side won. The only reason the dawi made gains in the old world was because the DEs assaulted Ulthuan, forcing the HE to defend their island. Soon Dwarfs were being ripped apart by the endless green tide of orcs which would continue until Sigmar's time.

Actualy correction, the High Elves were already loosing their War with the Dwarfs when the Dark Elves took the opporunity to attack.

Also, the Dwarf were fighting a two way battle, mind you the Dwarfs just came out of their golden age, and their golden age fell like a ton of bricks, first the earquake the knocked over many small setelments and two dwarfen holds, and then the Green tide that came from the Dark lands(after the Chaos Dwarfs drove them out)

[Kawnal]

Actualy correction, the High Elves were already loosing their War with the Dwarfs when the Dark Elves took the opporunity to attack.

Also, the Dwarf were fighting a two way battle, mind you the Dwarfs just came out of their golden age, and their golden age fell like a ton of bricks, first the earquake the knocked over many small setelments and two dwarfen holds, and then the Green tide that came from the Dark lands(after the Chaos Dwarfs drove them out)

It could go both ways, I think it's subject to racial propaganda

Dwarf view: The high elves were pushed out of the old world by dwarfs

High Elf view: the high elves fled the old world in order to protect Ulthuan.

The High Elves weren't losing, they just couldn't fight a two front war, and niether could the dwarfs.

[Hayden]

((sorry for the doube post))

Bah! keep talkin Elf I got your crown.

We also raised every High Elf town in the Old World, and sent half of your people to hide in a pathetic forest, now go back to your island and hide from your pissed off cousins, I hear thay took Avelorn,

I bet it sounded something like this

http://www.aimelek.com/locker/byebyeavelorn.mp3
The Asur have no need for settlements in the Old World, it is the Old World for a reason. There is no place more beautiful and serene than Ulthuan and I can understand the jealously many races have because of it. I'm sure the Dwarves are happy wallowing in mud holes in the side of an Orc infested mountain though.

We have plenty of your beards glittering on banners and shields. I think it looks like old Scaven fur personally but it does the job.

[Thoden Firehammer]

It could go both ways, I think it's subject to racial propaganda

Dwarf view: The high elves were pushed out of the old world by dwarfs

High Elf view: the high elves fled the old world in order to protect Ulthuan.

The High Elves weren't losing, they just couldn't fight a two front war, and niether could the dwarfs.


I have looked at many timelines, and the War of Vengence start at -2005, and lasts for 500 years, and doesn;t even say they Dark Elves attacked the High Elves during this time, mind you I looked through three time lines so far, i'll keep looking.

http://www.warhammer.net/archives/print.php?id=78[/url]]
-1600 I.C.
DWARFS/ELVES:
-1600 Battle of Three Towers at the gate of Tor Alessi (now the Bretonnian port of L'Anguille). (DW, HE) Dwarfs defeat Elves in a cataclysmic battle. (DW, HE) Phoenix King Caledor II slain by Dwarf King Gotrek Starbreaker. (HE) Phoenix Crown taken by Dwarfs as recompense. (DW, HE)
-1589 Phoenix King Caradryel recalls High Elf armies from the Old World. Elf colonies see departure as a betrayal. (WE)
-1502 Sith Rionnasc falls to Dwarfs after long siege. Fortress razed to the ground. (MAR)
-1501 High Elves withdraw from Old World to battle resurgent Dark Elves from Naggaroth. (HE) Dwarfs are left victorious, but decimated with the ending of the War of Vengeance. (DW) Isolated colonies of Wood Elves remain, the largest in the Loren and Laurelorn Forests. (MAR)

No this isn't a Dwarf only time line
http://www.warhammer.net/archives/print.php?id=78
but this is what I keep finding ine very timeline I see.

[Kawnal]

High Elves withdraw from Old World to battle resurgent Dark Elves from Naggaroth. (HE) Dwarfs are left victorious, but decimated with the ending of the War of Vengeance

It says right there that they left to defend ulthuan, not that they were pushed out.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Of course it doesn't. Why would a dwarf timeline tell of the Dark Elves?

Didn;t you read I said they wern't Dwarf timelines...

[Kawnal]

Didn;t you read I said they wern't Dwarf timelines...

I edited my post about it and misread yours, sorry man

[Thoden Firehammer]

Ahh but still my point stands... that was in the yeat -1501

The Dwarfs already won the old world by then, and they were dealing with the Orcs

[Kawnal]

The orc invasions didn't happen until 1500, so says World of Warhammer

and the dwarfs still didnt win it, your timeline clearly states that the elves left to defend their island.

[Thoden Firehammer]

The orc invasions didn't happen until 1500, so says World of Warhammer


I knew I should have read that time line better *I glaced over em after all I did read 7*

Well in anycase my point on the elves still stands, quit nit picking :P

[Kawnal]

hehehe, fair enough

[Noesis]

I am beginning to think come time of release that Thoden is going to go over to "help" with the defense of Ulthuan long enough to log onto his Orc alt and report positions of troop concentrations to destruction.

[Snorri]

If only such a thing were possibley; we can't have order and detso chars on the same server. ;)

But Thoden and I, we've got it all figured out.

Grundi Godriksson and Thoden Firehammer stood before the gates of Ulthuan. The combat had been bloody, but the largest of the waves was yet to come.

"Here they come!!" An Elf cried out, pointing to the oncoming horde of Elflings, Greenskins, and Warplings. The Elf's pants were suddenly stained with a foul stench of urine, it seemed to be some form of defensive habit that all elfs squirted whenever in a position of danger.

Grundi roared out to his fellow Dwarf as the enemy swarmed towards the walls, "Firehammer!! The Gates!!"

Thoden nodded and ran as fast as he stumpy legs would carry him, knocking elfs out of the way as he made his way to the gatehouse. The Dwarf grabbed the great crank that closed and opened the gates of Ulthuan, and he quickly began to turn it - with one arm, because it was ridiculously easy to turn, because elfings are weak little critters. In fact the flimsy walls of Ulthuan could probably be destroyed by a gust a wind, but Thoden decided to stick to the orginal plan.

"Wha-- the gates!! They're opening!!" The elf was quickly silenced by Grundi's hefty fist.

It wasn't long before the entire city was drowned in elfling blood, Ulthuan was now overrun with the hordes of destruction. On a hillside not too far from the city, Gurndi and Thoden had carved their bloody way to stand amongst the rest of the dwarfen army.

"Fire!!!" Thundered the Dwarfen Thane; Thoden and Grundi watched in great glee as all manner of Dawi artillery bombed down upon the walls of Ulthuan, which fell down and collapsed around the invaders as if it were some form if death trap. As the smoke cleared the Dwarfs surged forwards, ending the lives of any survivors in a bloodthirsty melee. Once everything was most certainly dead, the Dwarfs proceeded to urinate and defecate on the ruins of the once proud city of Ulthuan.


*Sigh*

Unfortunately, the Dwarfs are too honourable to slay their supposed "allies" in such a cowardly-elfing manner... but we can still fantasize...

We'll just have to slaughter all the puny elflings once we've dealt with the greenskins and the chaoslings!!

[Thoden Firehammer]

Snorri, i've never heard a better story in all my life.

it was beautiful :cry:

[Revolutionomni]

You know, there's plenty of dwarves gone Chaos. I'm sure they're still recruiting and I heard they have interesting benefits. ;)

[VeriusCarth]

You know, there's plenty of dwarves gone Chaos. I'm sure they're still recruiting and I heard they have interesting benefits. ;)

One of them being a "Fair game" sticker slapped on their foreheads, and being forced to run in plain sight of Elves.

:twisted:

[Hayden]

Grundi Godriksson and Thoden Firehammer stood before the gates of Ulthuan. The combat had been bloody, but the largest of the waves was yet to come.

"Here they come!!" An Elf cried out, pointing to the oncoming horde of Elflings, Greenskins, and Warplings. The Elf's pants were suddenly stained with a foul stench of urine, it seemed to be some form of defensive habit that all elfs squirted whenever in a position of danger.

Grundi roared out to his fellow Dwarf as the enemy swarmed towards the walls, "Firehammer!! The Gates!!"

Thoden nodded and ran as fast as he stumpy legs would carry him, knocking elfs out of the way as he made his way to the gatehouse. The Dwarf grabbed the great crank that closed and opened the gates of Ulthuan, and he quickly began to turn it - with one arm, because it was ridiculously easy to turn, because elfings are weak little critters. In fact the flimsy walls of Ulthuan could probably be destroyed by a gust a wind, but Thoden decided to stick to the orginal plan.

"Wha-- the gates!! They're opening!!" The elf was quickly silenced by Grundi's hefty fist.

It wasn't long before the entire city was drowned in elfling blood, Ulthuan was now overrun with the hordes of destruction. On a hillside not too far from the city, Gurndi and Thoden had carved their bloody way to stand amongst the rest of the dwarfen army.

"Fire!!!" Thundered the Dwarfen Thane; Thoden and Grundi watched in great glee as all manner of Dawi artillery bombed down upon the walls of Ulthuan, which fell down and collapsed around the invaders as if it were some form if death trap. As the smoke cleared the Dwarfs surged forwards, ending the lives of any survivors in a bloodthirsty melee. Once everything was most certainly dead, the Dwarfs proceeded to urinate and defecate on the ruins of the once proud city of Ulthuan.

Grundi then woke up realizing that his race would never leave the mountains and would be crushed under the weight of the green tide. He cried like he always did and soiled himself involuntarily. Something that often happened to the race of alcoholics.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Grundi then woke up realizing that his race would never leave the mountains and would be crushed under the weight of the green tide. He cried like he always did and soiled himself involuntarily. Something that often happened to the race of alcoholics.


And then Hayden then awoke to find that he was only dreaming, and that Thoden was grinning at him while lightly hitting the palm of his had, with his hammer.

[Thoden Firehammer]

You know, there's plenty of dwarves gone Chaos. I'm sure they're still recruiting and I heard they have interesting benefits. ;)


Actualy he's only a mincor chaos god named Hasut, and actual not many dwarfs worship him, it's only one hold, that was made after the worshiped him.

Also when they came to choose weather to sorship him or not, more than half of thoes Dwarfs said no, so in reality LESS THAN HALF of thoes Dwarfs from ONE hold, worshiped HASUT out of fear of death, but still that's not an excuse for a dwarf.. like it is for an elf

Oh and all of you are spitting me becuase I proved that the Dwarfs won the war of Vengece fairly and tha the Elves were not fighting a two front war, and to all you people I say, .... ha!

[Kawnal]

Actualy he's only a mincor chaos god named Hasut, and actual not many dwarfs worship him, it's only one hold, that was made after the worshiped him.

Also when they came to choose weather to sorship him or not, more than half of thoes Dwarfs said no, so in reality LESS THAN HALF of thoes Dwarfs from ONE hold, worshiped HASUT out of fear of death, but still that's not an excuse for a dwarf.. like it is for an elf

Oh and all of you are spitting me becuase I proved that the Dwarfs won the war of Vengece fairly and tha the Elves were not fighting a two front war, and to all you people I say, .... ha!

One hold? Zharr Nagrund is a huge empire! Plus, chaos dwarf hellcanon crews can be found in Chaos armies all the time.

And didn't you just admit to being wrong when I proved you wrong it in the timeline :P

[Noesis]

Actualy he's only a mincor chaos god named Hasut, and actual not many dwarfs worship him, it's only one hold, that was made after the worshiped him.

Also when they came to choose weather to sorship him or not, more than half of thoes Dwarfs said no, so in reality LESS THAN HALF of thoes Dwarfs from ONE hold, worshiped HASUT out of fear of death, but still that's not an excuse for a dwarf.. like it is for an elf

Oh and all of you are spitting me becuase I proved that the Dwarfs won the war of Vengece fairly and tha the Elves were not fighting a two front war, and to all you people I say, .... ha!

I don't really think anyone "won" the war of the beard...

I think both the dwarves and elves both pwned themselves. It was a stupid war in the first place.

At best, the dwarves won a Pyhrric victory.

[Snorri]

He cried like he always did and soiled himself involuntarily.

Hey! That's a medical condition! And I'll mind you not to mock!

:p

For information on the Dawi Zharr, and how they came to be etc, check my Dwarfen Lore thread.

Here's a direct link to the Chaos Dwarf section; don't worry, its a pretty short read. ;)

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=420563&postcount=7

[Revolutionomni]

Hey! That's a medical condition! And I'll mind you not to mock!

:p

For information on the Dawi Zharr, and how they came to be etc, check my Dwarfen Lore thread.

Here's a direct link to the Chaos Dwarf section; don't worry, its a pretty short read. ;)

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=420563&postcount=7

Thanks for the info, sadly reinforcing that no creature nor thing can forever elude Chaos. :mad:

I myself look forward to dispatching Chaos where ever I can. While the Dark Elves are "attempting" :lol: to forever remove us, we must as well protect our glorious lands from the stains of Chaos. "Yuck"

[Ashnari Doomsong]

Slann. No slann or lizardman has, AFAIR, yet fallen to Chaos. The same goes for Zoats and forest spirits, for whatever reason(though you might argue that Athel Loren is merely another Chaos power).

[Kawnal]

Greenskins are completely un-affected as well.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Dwarfs are still unefected as well.

Yes there are Chaos Dwarfs but they converted willingly... well it was that or a hirrbile death, but they still had a choice! :P

Sadly though even Chaos Dwarfs can't really use magic, I mean they can but in the process they turn to stone.

[Kawnal]

Dwarfs are still unefected as well.

Yes there are Chaos Dwarfs but they converted willingly... well it was that or a hirrbile death, but they still had a choice! :P

Sadly though even Chaos Dwarfs can't really use magic, I mean they can but in the process they turn to stone.

Of course they're affected. Dawi Zharr have horrible mutations (bull centaurs? Tusks?)

[Thoden Firehammer]

Of course they're affected. Dawi Zharr have horrible mutations (bull centaurs? Tusks?)


Yes I said CHaos Dwarfs, but the only reason thoes Dwarfs were affected was due to the fact that they allowed it, they gave them selves willingly to a chaos minor god.

read my post that you quoted...

[Kawnal]

Yes I said CHaos Dwarfs, but the only reason thoes Dwarfs were affected was due to the fact that they allowed it, they gave them selves willingly to a chaos minor god.

read my post that you quoted...

No... it doesn't work like that. You can't just be like "okay, mutate me now." It just happens.

[Thoden Firehammer]

No... it doesn't work like that. You can't just be like "okay, mutate me now." It just happens.


Lore wise Dwarfs are the most magic resisting race there is, that's why the Zharr Dawi sorcerers turn to stone when they use magic.

And yes... it works that way, if a follower of chaos willingly gives himself up then mutations can happen.

however most chaos Dwarfs arn't mutated, only a good few and that's becuase their Hasuts champions

[Kawnal]

Lore wise Dwarfs are the most magic resisting race there is, that's why the Zharr Dawi sorcerers turn to stone when they use magic.

And yes... it works that way, if a follower of chaos willingly gives himself up then mutations can happen.

however most chaos Dwarfs arn't mutated, only a good few and that's becuase their Hasuts champions

The dwarfs who went to liberate Karag Dum were mutated in the wastes, they surely hadn't given themselves to chaos.

[Barundin]

The dwarfs who went to liberate Karag Dum were mutated in the wastes, they surely hadn't given themselves to chaos.

Resistant doesn't mean immune, though I do think Lizardmen and/or Ogres are even more resistant. The Ogres do not get corrupted in soul, only in body.

[Ashnari Doomsong]

Oh, yes! No Great Eagles or Halflings have ever been mutated either, and up 'till recently, neither could ogres. Of course, they changed that, the gits.

[Snorri]

Aye, Thoden is right in saying that initially the dwarfs were not "corrupted by chaos" as such - as the dwarfs that became the Dawi Zharr actually gave themselves up and turned to worship the new god willingly - believing their old gods had forsaken them. Some of them refused to convert willingly and hence the fight broke out... Hashut granted his followers powers of sorcery to sway the battle in his favour.

Ultimately though, as Barundin pointed out, nothing is 'immune' to chaos. Some, like the Dwarfs are just incredibly resistant. I suspect that even if you placed a Slaan in the deepest depths of the Chaos Wastes and left him there for years, he too would mutate and corrupt.

The good thing is that Dwarfs usually resist long enough to either pummel or get clear of whatever the danger is. It goes hand in hand with their natural hardiness, as they are also less prone to disease and plague than other races... they're also stubborn traditionalist and simply refuse to change!!

You will recall in Daemonslayer however that the Dwarfs were careful not to drink certain water, in fear of mutation/taint - suggesting that they know they are highly resistant to chaos, but not immune.

[Noesis]

Yes I said CHaos Dwarfs, but the only reason thoes Dwarfs were affected was due to the fact that they allowed it, they gave them selves willingly to a chaos minor god.

read my post that you quoted...

Are you kidding me?

One could easily make the argument that allowing Chaos to consume you is apart of being corrupted by Chaos. After hearing the whispers of power in their ear, certain dwarves turned against their religion and began to openly worship Chaos. Essentially, they were corrupted by the whispers of power and then eventually allowed Chaos to consume them.

Openly willing Chaos into your heart is just the last stage in being corrupted by Chaos.

Open acceptance of Chaos is integral to the corruption process, not a separate thing.

Dwarves have fallen to the allure of Chaos just like any of the other races.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Are you kidding me?

One could easily make the argument that allowing Chaos to consume you is apart of being corrupted by Chaos. After hearing the whispers of power in their ear, certain dwarves turned against their religion and began to openly worship Chaos. Essentially, they were corrupted by the whispers of power and then eventually allowed Chaos to consume them.

Openly willing Chaos into your heart is just the last stage in being corrupted by Chaos.

Open acceptance of Chaos is integral to the corruption process, not a separate thing.

Dwarves have fallen to the allure of Chaos just like any of the other races.


Chaos Dwarfs (it is Dwarfs) fell to chaos out of fear, and even still they had to have a civil war(a small one, with one hold) Dwarfs arn't effected by the voices of chaos, they're just naturaly immune to such things, however since the felt forsaken by their ancestor gods half of thoes dwarfs turned to worshiping Hasut, becuase he was basicly saying "worship me or die"

Now I don't feel like discussing this further with you becuase you seem to not know Dwarf lore, and of Dwarf natural abilities, if you want to know anythign else i'm pretty sure Snorri adressed it

[Noesis]

Chaos Dwarfs (it is Dwarfs) fell to chaos out of fear

Oh ok. So as long as you turn to Chaos out of fear and abandon your original beliefs your not corrupted. Good to know.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Oh ok. So as long as you turn to Chaos out of fear and abandon your original beliefs your not corrupted. Good to know.


Again like in many of my other posts, you fail to see the point.

My point is, is that they became corrupted willingly, they are not like the humans who can just become corrupted like that, Dwarfs do not hear the voices, like the humans do, Dwarfs are more resistant, the mear fact taht they had to completly accept a chaos god before they were able to mutate and the fact that the Dwarf sorcers turn to stone when they use magic shows how resistant Dwarfs are to the Chaos energies.

[Noesis]

Again like in many of my other posts, you fail to see the point.

My point is, is that they became corrupted willingly, they are not like the humans who can just become corrupted like that, Dwarfs do not hear the voices, like the humans do, Dwarfs are more resistant, the mear fact taht they had to completly accept a chaos god before they were able to mutate and the fact that the Dwarf sorcers turn to stone when they use magic shows how resistant Dwarfs are to the Chaos energies.

they are more resistant, but not immune.

Ill concede that dwarves are probably more resistant to Chaos than other races. However, they are not immune. And from what you were saying in your earlier posts, you were claiming that dwarves have never been corrupted by Chaos. Which is obviously not the case.

[Thoden Firehammer]

they are more resistant, but not immune.

Ill concede that dwarves are probably more resistant to Chaos than other races. However, they are not immune. And from what you were saying in your earlier posts, you were claiming that dwarves have never been corrupted by Chaos. Which is obviously not the case.

I never said they are immune, I said they never been corrupted, and by that I meant willingly, i'm sorry if I didn't state that earlier, but anyway thanks for the discussion, it really made me remember my chaos Dwarf lore.

[Anubiis]

all women of all races are welcome to my house, i do free swordsman tricks :D

PS no dwarfs.

[Vaeronthar]

I do free swordmaster tricks on request as well. But not as a blatent attempt to get under a girl's skirt. Thus, I win.

[nWe]

Again like in many of my other posts, you fail to see the point.

My point is, is that they became corrupted willingly, they are not like the humans who can just become corrupted like that, Dwarfs do not hear the voices, like the humans do, Dwarfs are more resistant, the mear fact taht they had to completly accept a chaos god before they were able to mutate and the fact that the Dwarf sorcers turn to stone when they use magic shows how resistant Dwarfs are to the Chaos energies.Chaos dwarfs ;)