So I recently bought the new dark elf rule book and...

[Tiervexx]

I was really surprised at how much their special characters SUCK!

No, I don't mean to bash them personally...I think dark elves are cool but I was really disappointed with their stats/rules for the TT game. It's horrid.

Malekith, who is supposed to be one of the greatest wizards who studied dark magic for thousands of years is just a level 4 wizard with none of the cool rerolling abilities, big casting modifiers, extra spells, or miscast protection that is seen in many other special wizards like Teclis, Korak or Zacharias. He is a decent hand to hand fighter, but nothing many a chaos or vampire lord would not rip apart while being able to keep up with his spell casting ability.

Morathi is supposed to be one of the foremost dark sorceresses...but only an earthly +2 to casting value and her melee abilities would only be impressive if her spell casting abilities where far, far greater.

And her weapon just gives +2 strength and killing blow when charging...that would be decent if it was all the time but only when charging?! That's all she could come up with in thousands of years of controlling an empire?

Tyrion or Teclis would stand a decent chance of taking them both on at once, Malekith's only saving grace is that he rides a big dragon! What's with this?!

Both Morathi and Malekith seem to have a lot of missing power!

[Krulltak]

Games Workshop has officially gone off the deep end.

The next countdown is seeing when they hit rock bottom.

[Selandri]

Fair cop, but keep in mind the 'new' Druchii book is several years old right now. We're expecting an update in 2008, I believe.

Least, I think that's what the rumours say.

I know Asur is next then I think the argument was Druchii or Vampire Counts. I'll go look it up.

Edit: My bad, currently it's Asur late 2007, followed by Vampire Counts with a complete model revision rumoured for 2008 April / May. Again, rumours, but yeah. Suffice to say Druchii are in dire need of an update and have been since that book was first published. There's an official revision of it on the GW site somewhere, because it was so abnormally bad.

[Thrakkesh]

Dont' underestimate Malektih.

That son of a has a 2+ ward save against magical weapons and a weapon that DESTROYS MAGICAL EQUIPMENT.

He's a level four sorceror in full plate with a strength 6 on a dragon with a (I again emphasize) 2+ WARD SAVE.

[Tiervexx]

Dont' underestimate Malektih.

that would be hard...


That son of a has a 2+ ward save against magical weapons and a weapon that DESTROYS MAGICAL EQUIPMENT.

read it again, it's a 2+ save against NONmagical damage, which is cool but other special characters can still own him.

And that sword is a joke, if he wastes magical attacks taking out magical equipment and by the time he attacks them he's dead with his 3 wounds and 3 toughness.

He's a level four sorceror in full plate with a strength 6 on a dragon with a (I again emphasize) 2+ WARD SAVE.

Reread the rules, then rules for other characters (don’t argue with me if you only have dark elves). He can own rank and file troops but there are still a healthy number of other special characters that make a joke out of him.

[Linkusmax]

To be honest, Teclis should school him magic wise, thats what happened when they last met in a magical duel.

[ChaosDreamer]

expect the "new" Dark Elfs around next November/December.

[Selendor]

They'll be giving an update to Dark Elves right after they redo the Asur. In the new changes, Teclis has absorbed the powers of all four chaos gods, the Old Ones, and Nagash, and meanwhile Tyrion has beheaded every other special character and been declared King of the entire f***ing world.

/bitter

P.S. Eltharion is a ninja pirate with vampire armor.

[Thrakkesh]

Clearly you're missing the very obvious synergy, so let me spell it out for you.

He has a +2 ward save against non magical attacks.

He can make multiple attacks at WS 8 (and absurdly high initative) with a sword that destroys magical items, making like, what 3-4 attacks?

What happens when the special character loses his sword?

Yeah, exactly. Rank and file.

and another thing, eh's writing a freaking dragon. he's going to get the charge.

Use him intelligently. I've seen him rip apart a Blood Dragon Vampire count and a fight a Tzeentchian champion with orange fire up to a standstill, you just have to use him right.

Edit: Err, spotted my obvious mistake, I meant to say nonmagical. Ward save against non-magic + ability to remove magic weapon = ??? I'd hardly call that a 'waste of attacks'. For serious.

[Pieter Klass]

Not to mention the hand of khaine that hits for str 6 and no armour save and he chooses witch weapons hit that turn not so shabby,on i more personal note i would like to see this male mage that is gonna kill him in the new book

[Barundin]

Yes, the ward save applies only to non-magical attacks. What happens when your nice character loses his sword? He makes non-magical attacks. Some special characters is warhammer have to be used wisely, something lots of people fails to understand. Then, as some people have said, he is also riding a dragon, and he is a lvl 4 wizard.

He is not the best character alright (mostly because he costs a ton of points) but he is not a pushover in CC.

[Jerrus]

I'd like to point out that Morathi might not be the ultimate spellcaster in the game, but she is probably one of the most cost effective ones. A lvl 4 with a +2 casting bonus AND can choose spells AND has a ward save AND magic resistance AND can fight better than most mages AND a couple more bonuses all for about 50p more than a generic lvl 4 with magic items on a Pegasus.

[Tae]

Malekith, like every other unit in the Dark Elf army, has to be used intelligently.

He's not some idiotic Chaos hero who you can just run headlong at the enemy for with no tactical awareness whatsoever. He's a Druchii. That means he can be amazingly good or amazingly squishy, you just have to learn to use him right.

[Xurré]

on i more personal note i would like to see this male mage that is gonna kill him in the new book
Simply because Malekith believes a prophecy revolves around him, doesn't make it so. ;)


- Xurré

[Konrad Siegesruf]

on i more personal note i would like to see this male mage that is gonna kill him in the new book

I myself think it's Teclis that is this male mage, i mean, he has already beated Malekith once :D.

[Selendor]

I myself think it's Teclis that is this male mage, i mean, he has already beated Malekith once :D.

Funny, I think Malekith would've died had that been the case. Call it a draw? ;)

[Tae]

I always thought it might be rather amusing if the male mage in question was actually Malekith himself.

His own paranoid delusions send him spiraliing into such a dark twisted world that eventually he 'kills himself' (though not literally).

[Heno]

It's unlikely to be Teclis. Just because that's too obvious and gamesworkshop like thier plot twists :)

[Tae]

I don't see Malekith being killed off any time soon anyway. It would mean that the DE lore would need to be completely re-written, which is just an absoultely mamoth task.

[Tiervexx]

Ok, have a lot of stuff to respond to, so I'll do bullets.

-In the story Teclis had to call on the power of some goddess to best Malektih, so their TT rules should still be more comparable.

-I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again, don’t argue with me on this if you have not carefully read over the rules for Teclis, Lord Korak and other such monsters. It is reasonable that the ancient Korak would be able to blast the two dark elf leaders to bits but Teclis and Tyrion should not be so much better.

-Many of you are missing the whole point. After 5 thousand years of being schooled in black magic he should have great casting abilities that are not there, and I don't care if he rides a big black dragon and has decent magic items...Someone of his history should not be such a weakling without hiding behind a dragon and magical toys! Magic items aside the game has just too many others that are much stronger with/without magic items.

-Of course you can compensate for their weakness by being much smarter then your opponent...but assuming equal competence of the players Malektih is usually gana lose. Sure your Malektih has a great shot against someone that never looked at his rules...but since I do know how he works I could kill him with a Chaos Lord of Tzeentch or a number of special characters every time. You are not so smart if you would depend on your opponent being an idiot!

-His gauntlet that gives him 6 str and ignores armor is nice but...compare that to a runefang that ignores armor and wounds automatically making your str irrelevant anyway! Isn't it reasonable to expect Malektih to have been able to acquire something more comparable in this much time? Speaking of weapons, his mother’s lance that gives +2 str and Killing blow ability while charging is nice, but I think it would be totally reasonable for someone of her power to have something that gives +2 str and killing blow all the time!

[Heno]

If all heros were as powerful as the fluff says they are, they'd all cost 2000+ points. Concessions have to be made for the game :O

[Tae]

Why do people have to write in :skull: black all the god damned time ? Are you just trying to be that :skull: annoying ?


- And yes I'm aware this will get reported and yes I'm aware that I'll get penalty points, but seriously writing in black ? :skull: off.

[Orochimaru]

Why do people have to write in :skull: black all the god damned time ? Are you just trying to be that :skull: annoying ?


- And yes I'm aware this will get reported and yes I'm aware that I'll get penalty points, but seriously writing in black ? :skull: off.

Amen to that!

[Thrakkesh]

Considering that if you take the dragon out of the equation, a Chaos Lord of Tzeentch is idiotically more expensive then Malektih himself (oh, and also the deadliest hand to hand fighter in the game), I'd rather hope he should win. But frankly, a Chaos Lord of Tzeentch can slay a Bloodthirster if kitted out right, so grats on killing something with one of the best characters in the Warhammer world I guess.

Also, by the way, you weren't the first or the last person to realize that Tzeentch + Orange fire + 4+ ward save = win. :/

and nobody said 'smarter then your opponent' just used intelligently.

[Arceaus]

Why do people have to write in :skull: black all the god damned time ? Are you just trying to be that :skull: annoying ?


- And yes I'm aware this will get reported and yes I'm aware that I'll get penalty points, but seriously writing in black ? :skull: off.


Actually, it means that the message was written in Word or someother writing program (probably for the spell checker) and copied across, as this is the default colour it goes to - it probably isnt intentional.


ANYWAY - Im with the person that said that the fluff has to be subservient to gaming, so he cant be as awesome as the hype dictates, or he would be 3,500 points or just ridiculously overpowered to the extent of destroying armies on his own... which, again, is fun in fluff but makes for pointless rank and file troops in the TT game

[Estebar]

Actually, it means that the message was written in Word or someother writing program (probably for the spell checker) and copied across, as this is the default colour it goes to - it probably isnt intentional. Not to mention, Tae, it really doesn't take that much effort to just drag your mouse across the text and highlight it.

EDIT: You too, Taurth. What's wrong with just highlighting the text?

Many of you are missing the whole point. After 5 thousand years of being schooled in black magic he should have great casting abilities that are not there, and I don't care if he rides a big black dragon and has decent magic items...Someone of his history should not be such a weakling without hiding behind a dragon and magical toys! It's difficult to give Malekith potent magical ability without making Morathi seriously overpowered. Any capability with magic the Witch King is entitled to should be doubled with Morathi. I'm not sure +2 Casting and an extra lore cuts it, given her age and experience in sorcery. "She was the first to perfect Dark magic, opening up gateways to Chaos hells and receiving unimaginable power."

I think Malekith should be given his mother's currently tabletop casting capability (+2 Casting), and Morathi should be bumped up to a non-officially-playable Special Character, like Ariel and Alarielle.

[Taurth]

Why do people have to write in :skull: black all the god damned time ? Are you just trying to be that :skull: annoying ?


- And yes I'm aware this will get reported and yes I'm aware that I'll get penalty points, but seriously writing in black ? :skull: off.

Indeed, I had to quote it, and change the colour before I could have any hope of reading it. One of the things that really annoys me on this forum.

[Tae]

Not to mention, Tae, it really doesn't take that much effort to just drag your mouse across the text and highlight it.

EDIT: You too, Taurth. What's wrong with just highlighting the text?


Because I shouldn't have to. It's a pain in the arse, which is why I don't like doing it. I'm here to read forums, not to have fun playing highlighting games just so I can read what people sya.

Oh, and there's a spell check built into the reply function, so there's no need to use Word.

[Tiervexx]

Considering that if you take the dragon out of the equation, a Chaos Lord of Tzeentch is idiotically more expensive then Malektih himself (oh, and also the deadliest hand to hand fighter in the game), I'd rather hope he should win. But frankly, a Chaos Lord of Tzeentch can slay a Bloodthirster if kitted out right, so grats on killing something with one of the best characters in the Warhammer world I guess.

Also, by the way, you weren't the first or the last person to realize that Tzeentch + Orange fire + 4+ ward save = win. :/

and nobody said 'smarter then your opponent' just used intelligently.

Never claimed it was my idea! lol. The fact that it does not take much genius to figure this out is exactly the point.

I'm not saying Malektih should be some unstopable god...just that he's weaker then he should be, as is his mother.

There is a lot of room to buff them without making them overpowered.

Why do people have to write in :skull: black all the god damned time ? Are you just trying to be that :skull: annoying ?


- And yes I'm aware this will get reported and yes I'm aware that I'll get penalty points, but seriously writing in black ? :skull: off.

sorry, it does that automaticly when I copy and past stuff into word for editing, I normally change it back to white but I forgot.

I don't blaim you, it was a valid complaint.

On second thought...if it really bothered you THAT MUCH you might need to get your eyes checked.

[Bulwyf]

The few times I use Malekith in a battle I use him just like DE and just like DE in WH40K: find the situations to do the maximum amount of damage and do not ever leave them exposed if you can help it. If you can fight intelligently you can wipe the floor with most people.

[Tiervexx]

The few times I use Malekith in a battle I use him just like DE and just like DE in WH40K: find the situations to do the maximum amount of damage and do not ever leave them exposed if you can help it. If you can fight intelligently you can wipe the floor with most people.


Of course! I never said him and his mother are bad for their point costs.

I atleast have to give GWS credit for that, they are aware of how strong they are even if we disagree on how strong they should be.

[Thrakkesh]

The Dark Elf books are written from the Dark Elf perspective. Don't forget that. They're likely exaggerated claims (as most GW fluff tends to be). And frankly--I mean, a spellcaster with an innate +2 to casting before any special items isn't terribly bad.

I will agree with one bit though; Teclis is stupid overpowered. Tyrion isn't much better. Truth be told, the quality of special characters has ramped sharply upwards since Morathi/Malekith/Grimgor, etc... I mean, compare Archaon/whathisface from Storm of Chaos/the new rules for Shadowblade, which may be part of it. Truthfully, Malekith is pretty nasty against the special characters from every book 'till about Chaos on, where all special characters seem to get pretty ridiclious. ( I mean, I understand, the Everchosen's a powerhouse, he's like 1k points... but still. )

As for being a super-powerful caster, it's probably tough to balance when you're strength 6, ignore armor, nuke magic weapons, with a 2+ ward save against non-magical attacks. Though I could totally see them balancing it by reducing the ward save to 4+ against magical. ( I mean, he's only wearing heavy armor.) Give him one reroll a game for spellcasting if you really feel strongly about it.

As for Morathi? She's even harder because she's supposed to be a hag queen--yeah, a sorceror, but a Witch Elf too, mind you. Doesn't she get to hand-pick her spells though?

[Scirrocco]

As for Morathi? She's even harder because she's supposed to be a hag queen--yeah, a sorceror, but a Witch Elf too, mind you. Doesn't she get to hand-pick her spells though?

The only thing i can find that mentions it is this, the Storm of Chaos Cult of slaanesh rules.

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/stormofchaos/gaming/rules/assets/SoC_cultofslaanesh.pdf

She gets to choose magic from Dark magic or the lore of Slaanesh, although the last part might just be for the cult of slaanesh army.

[Tiervexx]

The Dark Elf books are written from the Dark Elf perspective. Don't forget that. They're likely exaggerated claims (as most GW fluff tends to be). And frankly--I mean, a spellcaster with an innate +2 to casting before any special items isn't terribly bad.

I will agree with one bit though; Teclis is stupid overpowered. Tyrion isn't much better. Truth be told, the quality of special characters has ramped sharply upwards since Morathi/Malekith/Grimgor, etc... I mean, compare Archaon/whathisface from Storm of Chaos/the new rules for Shadowblade, which may be part of it. Truthfully, Malekith is pretty nasty against the special characters from every book 'till about Chaos on, where all special characters seem to get pretty ridiclious. ( I mean, I understand, the Everchosen's a powerhouse, he's like 1k points... but still. )

As for being a super-powerful caster, it's probably tough to balance when you're strength 6, ignore armor, nuke magic weapons, with a 2+ ward save against non-magical attacks. Though I could totally see them balancing it by reducing the ward save to 4+ against magical. ( I mean, he's only wearing heavy armor.) Give him one reroll a game for spellcasting if you really feel strongly about it.

As for Morathi? She's even harder because she's supposed to be a hag queen--yeah, a sorceror, but a Witch Elf too, mind you. Doesn't she get to hand-pick her spells though?

Now we are starting to agree!

It is clear that the elves of all kinds, especially the dark elves are quite full of themselves but what bothers me the most is the comparison of Teclis to the Druchii heros, in that there isn't one.

Yes Morathi gets to hand pick her spells but Teclis always knows drain magic then gets to know an entire lore (for a total of 7 spells) and that lore can be the player choice of any of the 8 or high magic. So yeah Morathi and Malekith have stuff going for them but the Asur brothers one-up them on everything.

[Xurré]

The only thing i can find that mentions it is this, the Storm of Chaos Cult of slaanesh rules.

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/stormofchaos/gaming/rules/assets/SoC_cultofslaanesh.pdf

She gets to choose magic from Dark magic or the lore of Slaanesh, although the last part might just be for the cult of slaanesh army.
You don't have to look that far:

High Sorceress
Morathi is a Fourth Level Dark Elf Sorceress. She always uses Dark magic, but you may choose which four spells she has at the start of the battle, rather than rolling for them. In addition, Morathi adds +2 to all of her casting rolls, rather than the normal +1.
The Storm of Chaos rules just add that she can also choose from Slaaneshi magic it seems.


- Xurré

[Tiervexx]

You don't have to look that far:


The Storm of Chaos rules just add that she can also choose from Slaaneshi magic it seems.


- Xurré

The new DE book I bought also has a little story where she talks about how the stupid Hellborne does not comprehend how deeply rooted the cult of Slaanesh is in their culture.

It was not directly stated but strongly implied that she and Malekith take more sympathy with the Cult of Slaanesh

[Scirrocco]

You don't have to look that far:


The Storm of Chaos rules just add that she can also choose from Slaaneshi magic it seems.


- Xurré

Don't have the rulebook handy, sorry.

[Xurré]

Don't have the rulebook handy, sorry.
Get yourself a memory stick and an electronic copy... I never go anywhere without my dark elf army book. ;)


- Xurré

[Thrakkesh]

The new DE book I bought also has a little story where she talks about how the stupid Hellborne does not comprehend how deeply rooted the cult of Slaanesh is in their culture.

It was not directly stated but strongly implied that she and Malekith take more sympathy with the Cult of Slaanesh

Morathi yes, Malekith no. Malekith is actually an ardent opponent of the cult (by nature it threatens his claim to power. Why do you think he fragging is dressed up like Khaine?) Morathi just keeps the wool pulled over his eyes (or bedsheets, depending on your interpretation of their behavior).

[Tae]

Morathi yes, Malekith no. Malekith is actually an ardent opponent of the cult (by nature it threatens his claim to power. Why do you think he fragging is dressed up like Khaine?) Morathi just keeps the wool pulled over his eyes (or bedsheets, depending on your interpretation of their behavior).

Plus not forgetting it was his interogation of the Cult of Pleasure back on Ulthuan that was one of the events which led to the Sundering. So I doubt he's best pleased with the Cult as a whole, even if he can forgive his mother.

[Tiervexx]

Morathi yes, Malekith no. Malekith is actually an ardent opponent of the cult (by nature it threatens his claim to power. Why do you think he fragging is dressed up like Khaine?) Morathi just keeps the wool pulled over his eyes (or bedsheets, depending on your interpretation of their behavior).

She was talking to him!

And there where nice black satin bed sheets involved as well...

[Xurré]

Actually, the way I read it neither Morathi nor Malekith gives a damn about one religion or the other. For the two of them they’re merely tools to give them (and let them keep) power.


- Xurré

[Tiervexx]

Actually, the way I read it neither Morathi nor Malekith gives a damn about one religion or the other. For the two of them they’re merely tools to give them (and let them keep) power.


- Xurré

I agree!

But Morathi seems to think that Slaanesh is the more useful one for her magic which makes sence since Khaine is not a mystical god, and Malekith seemed indiffrent to me.

As a matter of fact...Liber Chaotica has a long section talking about how the elven idea of worship differs from the human one. Elves in general tend to view religion more as a business transaction/employeer then a way of life.

[Thrakkesh]

Actually, the way I read it neither Morathi nor Malekith gives a damn about one religion or the other. For the two of them they’re merely tools to give them (and let them keep) power.


- Xurré

Be that as it may, remember that Malekith's authority is granted more or less by Khaine. I don't think he's in too well with Slannesh.

Anyway I don't have that specific Dark elf story handy but I don't remember Malekith and Morathi talking about the cult specifically. I could have swore I read somewhere that Malekith really wants that cult gone, but I could be mistaken.

Edit: Also, you couldn't take Malekith in a Cult of Slannesh but you could take Morathi. If he supported it, why would that be the case?

[Xurré]

Let me quote the section from that story:

“I attend the feast to perpetuate the lie, my son. Hellebron believes that she rules the temples. She truly believes that through her devotion the temple of Khaine is the sole religion of our people. In doing so she underestimates how deep rooted the worship of Slaanesh and his dark arts reach, and thus my sorceresses gain in power, unseen by the Witch Elves. Lies are power. They have the ability to change history. And history is built upon the lies of the victor.”
After which she lies back on the bed and asks Malekith to join her. :p

Morathi is a tad delusional though… Hellebron just makes her believe that she believes so that she thinks the cult of Slaanesh goes unnoticed by the Witch Elves. Hellebron is just perpetuating the lie and having Morathi do her bidding to boot, all the while the temple growing stronger and stronger, keeping the Cult of Pleasure in line by now and again culling it here and there; like carefully growing a bonsai tree. ;)

Yes, I made the previous paragraph up, but considering the dark elves it’s not at all inconceivable and I think Morathi is grievously underestimating Hellebron. That’s the beauty of dark elves though… lies within lies within lies become so entangled that pretty soon nobody is certain of the truth anymore.


- Xurré

[Psycojester]

After which she lies back on the bed and asks Malekith to join her.
Hang on a second, isn't that Armour of his permanently attached after the whole "rejected by the flame" fiasco that started the whole mess

[Bulwyf]

I think the armor was needed then to keep him alive while his body repaired itself to some degree. As there have been many hints that Malekith and Morathi have a sexual relationship with one another I believe he is capable of taking off the armor if he chooses. How damaged he may be after the fire is of course open to conjecture.

[Tiervexx]

I think the armor was needed then to keep him alive while his body repaired itself to some degree. As there have been many hints that Malekith and Morathi have a sexual relationship with one another I believe he is capable of taking off the armor if he chooses. How damaged he may be after the fire is of course open to conjecture.

The story that we are talking about does mention him taking off his helmet, and his face is badly scared but still has nice black hair...

It might be a safe assumption that the rest of his body is simular.

Be that as it may, remember that Malekith's authority is granted more or less by Khaine. I don't think he's in too well with Slannesh.

Anyway I don't have that specific Dark elf story handy but I don't remember Malekith and Morathi talking about the cult specifically. I could have swore I read somewhere that Malekith really wants that cult gone, but I could be mistaken.

Edit: Also, you couldn't take Malekith in a Cult of Slannesh but you could take Morathi. If he supported it, why would that be the case?

I think that's just the image Malekith wants to portray.

It is to his benefit to appear totally devoted to Khaine, but as I said above I doubt any elf really is totally devoted to any god(s) in their heart of hearts. Even Witch Elves might be more interested in the anti-aging and thrills they get from being Witch Elves and there is another story in the DE army book that supports this, where a Witch Elf wonders if she might one day be sacrificed to the fickle god...

The story does not have a title, it's just one page long and appears right after the description of the founding of Naggaroth.

Let me quote the section from that story:


After which she lies back on the bed and asks Malekith to join her. :p

Morathi is a tad delusional though… Hellebron just makes her believe that she believes so that she thinks the cult of Slaanesh goes unnoticed by the Witch Elves. Hellebron is just perpetuating the lie and having Morathi do her bidding to boot, all the while the temple growing stronger and stronger, keeping the Cult of Pleasure in line by now and again culling it here and there; like carefully growing a bonsai tree. ;)

Yes, I made the previous paragraph up, but considering the dark elves it’s not at all inconceivable and I think Morathi is grievously underestimating Hellebron. That’s the beauty of dark elves though… lies within lies within lies become so entangled that pretty soon nobody is certain of the truth anymore.
- Xurré

I respectfully disagree based on how Morathi's rules say that when she is in the army the Witch Elves will use her leadership always, whether she is the general or not.

Hellborne probably has her suspicions but I really doubt that she is more then a puppet before the high sorceress.

[Estebar]

Yes, I made the previous paragraph up, but considering the dark elves it’s not at all inconceivable and I think Morathi is grievously underestimating Hellebron. That’s the beauty of dark elves though… lies within lies within lies become so entangled that pretty soon nobody is certain of the truth anymore. I recall a relatively long story told from Hellebron's perspective in one of the older editions of the Dark Elf army book. It's reasonably old considering in it, Hellebron steps into the Cauldron a withered crone, and steps out an extremely attractive youth (so it occurs before Morathi prevents Hellebron from bathing in the Cauldron). I believe something is mentioned about her relationship with Morathi. Perhaps if someone could find it, we could be spared yet more interpretations of Dark Elf motivation (particularly Dark Elf special character interpretation, bleurgh. :-P ).

[Xurré]

I recall a relatively long story told from Hellebron's perspective in one of the older editions of the Dark Elf army book. It's reasonably old considering in it, Hellebron steps into the Cauldron a withered crone, and steps out an extremely attractive youth (so it occurs before Morathi prevents Hellebron from bathing in the Cauldron). I believe something is mentioned about her relationship with Morathi. Perhaps if someone could find it, we could be spared yet more interpretations of Dark Elf motivation (particularly Dark Elf special character interpretation, bleurgh. :-P ).
Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that. I've got that edition actually. It's a fairly long (two-page) story so I'm not going to quote all of it, but most of it is about how old she is and how the Witches worship Khaine and finally her taking the bath and all that anyway. There's one paragraph that I can see that refers to Morathi:

She would not give her enemies at the court, especially the ageless Morathi and her panderers, the pleasure of whispering about her behind her back. Hellebron knew that they would, and she would rather suffer a thousand pain-wracked journeys to Ghrond than tolerate such treatment.
Not much there.

On a side-note, Hellebron isn't denied access to the Cauldron of Blood, just access to the true Cauldron of Blood, the first (and most ancient) one which is supposed to have a much more lasting effect. Hellebron still bathes in a Cauldron of Blood, but the effect just doesn't last very long for her (and she probably gets older every year as well). To quote the entry on Hellebron in the same book:

Of all the Hag Queens Hellebron is the most ancient, save only the mother of the Witch King herself, Morathi, the first and greatest of the brides of Khaine. But while the youth and beauty of Morathi is eternally renewed, that of Hellebron is now almost expended. The power of blood no longer refreshes this ancient Hag Queen for long. Each year more sacrifices are needed to fill the cauldron, and yet the rejuvenating effects last for less and less time. Once beautiful beyond measure Hellebron must now endure many dark months as an old and ugly crone for each day of renewed youth.
I understand from that that the cauldron Morathi uses is much more effective and can restore her completely and equally strong each year.

Anyway, there you go. :)


- Xurré

[Goatrider]

Perhaps, next time, pausing to understand why someone might format something in a certain fashion would be prudent. No need to get frustrated about a non-issue.

Also, please don't respond to and quote a post that's obviously going to be edited. Each one needs to be done individually.