A few thoughts on the DE *LONG*

[Thunderinsilence]

I've been reading through several of the threads concerning the speculation, rumour and interpretation of the Dark Elves, and I thought I'd throw my intellectual fuel into the cognitive flame. I'd like to say that this is also just speculation; I have no more information than any of you have (perhaps less than some others), these are just my own thoughts based upon my knowledge of the game so far, the Warhammer lore and the TT.

First off, there has been speculation that the Black Guard might fill the role of DE tanker. Personally, I find that unlikely, for the same reason that I understand they didn't have Reiksguard as the tank for Empire, or how I think we're unlikely to see the Phoenix Guard turn up as the HE tank; both are the personal guard of the Emperor and the Phoenix King, respectively. The Black Guard, from the Warhammer background, are the elite personal guard of the Witch King himself, culled from the most potential prospects of his armies. To me, WAR is not a game that has you at its centre; you are not the saviour of your kind. It is a game, oddly enough, about war, about the teeming masses of common soldiers who struggle through the bloodshed and become, well, not so much heroes as just better soldiers. At the upper levels of the game, you're no saviour, you're a grizzled soldier whose seen enough death to drown the world. The Black Guard, being pretty much the best of the best, would have to START at level 30-35 to even get in, and to my mind that makes them unsuited to being a starting career; you don't begin as a Black Guard, you work your little elf ears off until you're considered such a badass that your liege and master himself gives you the spikiest black armour you've ever seen in your life and says "you're rolling with MY BOYS now" (that's right, Malkeith was Black). More likely, they will appear as the elite NPC guards of the DE city.

There also appears to be a lot of speculation about the suitability of the next contender for the DE tank slot, the Cold One Knight. This is based largely around the fact that there is much confusion over how many mounted-combat classes there are likely to be. My thoughts on this are simple; there is not enough evidence to suggest to me there will only be one such class per Order and Destruction faction. In fact, I interpret a lot of the evidence displayed to support such arguments as meaning that the Chosen and KofBS will simply be better at it than other classes, as is right in their role as knightly characters. I have little doubt there will be mounted classes for the DE and HE respectively that will be more suited to mounted combat than their fellow classes. I cannot comment about the Dwarf/Greenskin pairing until I see more info on dwarf mounts, but I'd hazard a guess to say they may have a similiar mix. After all, it seems silly to me that any class should be unable to attack from a mount, considering the fact that no one in Warhammer Lore seems to have much of a problem with riding AND attacking. This is war after all; calvary has played a part in wars in Warhamer since the very beginning.

Tankers aside, the other classes seem to be to be in a spot of confusion; although its largely felt that the sorcerer/sorceress is destined for the support role, I find it equally possible that it could wind up as the ranged damage class, and that support could be filled by the Witch Elf *gasps of shock, howls of disagreement*. Yes, a controversial view *further boos* but one I find would fit with their theme, considered from the prospective of the lore behind them. Witch Elves are all about a few key points; murder, slaughter, blood and eternal youth. The more of the first three they do, the longer the fourth part lasts. This could easily be adapted into the game as a class similar to the Warrior Priest; the longer the priest is in combat, the more "Holy Power" he aquires and the more effective his spells are. The Witch Elf could have a system where shedding blood (doing damage) allows her greater abilities, meaning she would be an effective combat-caster. Of course, she could also very easily be the DPS class; just idle musings.

As a final point, I'd like to say that a a lot of people seem very firm about what may or may not be possible based upon the TT game. I myself have drawn a few ideas and based them upon that source, but it's important to remember Mythic has the rights to work with the Warhammer IP, not the game itself. For any of you who have read the books, comics or general fluff generated by the legions of writers Games Workshop have under its thrall (Dan Abnett FTW), you'll know that they often work outside of what you see on the TT, and have even gone some way to influencing it. The DE could be entirely different than what I've predicted, and I doubt more than 50% of what I said will end up being correct, but still, it's nice to dream.

*And now, for those of you who read this far, the secret end-of-message spoof trailer*

[Deep within the imposing black stone turret of a hulking Black Arc, Malekith the Witch-King sits brooding upon a throne carved from Asur bones and upholstered in tanned human flesh. Before him stands his generals, the clawed fingers to his mighty mailed fist, poised to hear his order to attack the homeland they were so cruelly ousted from countless years ago]
Malekith: The time has come at last; our plans come to fruition. Send forth our warhosts, that they may bathe in the blood of our most ancient foes!
General #1: Yes me liege...erm, bit of a problem there actually...
M: Problem!? I shall tolerate no problems, not when we stand ready to slaughter the hated Asur!
G#1: Well, it's a little complicated you see...thing is, we're not sure who to have as the DPS Class.
M: ...What?
G#1: Well some people say Witch Elf, and some people say Corsair, and one daft git is saying Witch Elves should be the Support Caster.
[Angry murmur of disagreement from the other generals]
M: Well send both then!! Send all my legions!!
General #2: [Horrified gasp] But my liege, that would make more than four classes! The balancing issues would be horrendous! The WAR fans would be up in arms my lord!
M: Are you telling me an entire contingent of my troops shall be left unused because of BALANCING ISSUES!?
G#2: Well no...er, they may turn up as NPCs, quest-givers, you know...or maybe in an expansion pack...
G#1: [Whispers to G#2] Just don't tell him about the whole Cold One Knight situation
M: [Who has great hearing] What about the Cold One Knights?
G#1: Er, well, it's kinda...well...they can't fight while mounted sir...
M: ...You have got to be ******* kidding me!? They're KNIGHTS for Khaine's sake!!
G#2: Yes my lord, they seem a little confused about it too. Pretty embaressing, truth be told.
[Malekith sighs and pinches the bridge of his nose. Suddenly a messanger arrives with a worried expression]
Messenger: A message for you my liege; it bears the seal of the Raven Host
[Malekith opens the seal and unfurls the message, muttering as he reads it]
M: Blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda...What the!?! "Screw you N00bz, Our Chosen can fight on steeds HAHAHA ROFLCOPTER!!!!1111!!one". Do you know what this means?!
G#1 & G#2 in unison: What my liege?
M: It means Chaos has been secretly developing the dreaded ROFLCOPTER. May the gods have mercy on us all...
http://www.magnificentoctopus.com/propaganda/roflcopter.jpg

Thank you and goodnight!

[Thoden Firehammer]

Well it was good post, but it started going down hill from the beginning, did you know that all the races are using their "elitest" troops
Ironbreaker and Hammerers are defnitly not rank and file Dwarf soilders, especily Hammerer, they are the personal body guards of the Dwarf Lords.

Same with Empire and the other races.
Also they have clealry not announced who on destruction side will have mounted combat but it has been "assumed" that it's going to be the chosen.

[Thunderinsilence]

That's not quite what I meant by my use of the term Elite; the point is that you don't start as a Black Guard, you get elevated to it. You can start out as an Witch Hunter, or a Black Orc (no helping that, it's genetics), but I don't see the Black Guard working up from starting level characters; they'd need to be higher level to even be considered for the position. In confess I had forgotten about the Hammerers when I had thought that up, but considering dwarfs are pretty big on heritage and tradition it could be argued that you could be born into a Hammerer family. Of course Mythic and indeed Games Workshop might disagree with that assumption, but from what I've read of the lore it seems to fit.

And the point I was making with calvary is that I think the evidence suggest that they will be better at it than the other classes, rather than the only onces capable of it, based upon what has been mentioned. I think that would give them a rather unfair ability compared to other classes, since they already have their own set of abilities; giving them the sole rights to mounted combat would be a little unbalancing. Mythic wouldn't set out to unbalance a class so badly, so I think it's either a case of all will have it (and some will have a slight advantage, as is only fair for their class-choice) or none will.

As they say, time will tell.

[krronos]

I semi-LOL'd :p

[Grimfell Gromgear]

That's not quite what I meant by my use of the term Elite; the point is that you don't start as a Black Guard, you get elevated to it. You can start out as an Witch Hunter, or a Black Orc (no helping that, it's genetics), but I don't see the Black Guard working up from starting level characters; they'd need to be higher level to even be considered for the position. In confess I had forgotten about the Hammerers when I had thought that up, but considering dwarfs are pretty big on heritage and tradition it could be argued that you could be born into a Hammerer family. Of course Mythic and indeed Games Workshop might disagree with that assumption, but from what I've read of the lore it seems to fit.

And the point I was making with calvary is that I think the evidence suggest that they will be better at it than the other classes, rather than the only onces capable of it, based upon what has been mentioned. I think that would give them a rather unfair ability compared to other classes, since they already have their own set of abilities; giving them the sole rights to mounted combat would be a little unbalancing. Mythic wouldn't set out to unbalance a class so badly, so I think it's either a case of all will have it (and some will have a slight advantage, as is only fair for their class-choice) or none will.

As they say, time will tell.

Ironbreakers are experienced tunnel fighters. They get the designation for... fighting... in tunnels. Considering the game doesn't start with the Ironbreaker doing tunnel runs, he had to have been doing tunnel runs before the game.

Rank 1 I don't think means a fresh recruit, it means... the starting level of the heroes and elites we'll be using. You're still better than cannon fodder (that's what NPC mobs are for), These are experienced soldiers... just not as experienced as they will be at end game.

[Thoden Firehammer]

That's not quite what I meant by my use of the term Elite; the point is that you don't start as a Black Guard, you get elevated to it. You can start out as an Witch Hunter, or a Black Orc (no helping that, it's genetics), but I don't see the Black Guard working up from starting level characters; they'd need to be higher level to even be considered for the position. In confess I had forgotten about the Hammerers when I had thought that up, but considering dwarfs are pretty big on heritage and tradition it could be argued that you could be born into a Hammerer family. Of course Mythic and indeed Games Workshop might disagree with that assumption, but from what I've read of the lore it seems to fit.

And the point I was making with calvary is that I think the evidence suggest that they will be better at it than the other classes, rather than the only onces capable of it, based upon what has been mentioned. I think that would give them a rather unfair ability compared to other classes, since they already have their own set of abilities; giving them the sole rights to mounted combat would be a little unbalancing. Mythic wouldn't set out to unbalance a class so badly, so I think it's either a case of all will have it (and some will have a slight advantage, as is only fair for their class-choice) or none will.

As they say, time will tell.


Well again about hammerers, ever heard the saying "warriors a made not born"
The same thing goes for them, one isn't just born into that position, they have to be an old Dwarf who has seen alot of battle.

And again on your mounted class argument, i'll just counter it by saying what about the goblin squig Herder, that's a pet class, but the Dwarfs don't have a pet class, ironicaly the HE's are supposed to get the pet class.

[Thunderinsilence]

Ironbreakers are experienced tunnel fighters. They get the designation for... fighting... in tunnels. Considering the game doesn't start with the Ironbreaker doing tunnel runs, he had to have been doing tunnel runs before the game.

Rank 1 I don't think means a fresh recruit, it means... the starting level of the heroes and elites we'll be using. You're still better than cannon fodder (that's what NPC mobs are for), These are experienced soldiers... just not as experienced as they will be at end game.

Ah, I see where you're coming from with that, and I agree wholeheartedly; the character classes are not footgrunts in the slightest. It would be a little cruel for a play who chose a CHosen to be asked to quest around the Chaos Wastes until the gods deemed him worthy of a suit of Chaos Armour (although now I think about it...).

My issue was, while in the TT the black guard have to be balanced so as to make them suitable for game play, in the IP they are a lot more deadly than their TT incranations would suggest, and it's from the IP that Mythic will be drawing most of their inspiration. The gap between your standard Black Guard and a starting level character, seasoned though they may be, is still too large for me to be comfortable with the idea of starting as one. Again, this is purely my own musings and a lot of people will disagree, but I do understand where you're coming from :)

[Thunderinsilence]

Well again about hammerers, ever heard the saying "warriors a made not born"
The same thing goes for them, one isn't just born into that position, they have to be an old Dwarf who has seen alot of battle.

And again on your mounted class argument, i'll just counter it by saying what about the goblin squig Herder, that's a pet class, but the Dwarfs don't have a pet class, ironicaly the HE's are supposed to get the pet class.

I can understand your issues with my thoughts on the Hammerer, and it's certainly a valid argument, but I still believe the Black Guard aren't that suited as the DE Tank class; to my mind the Cold One Knight fills the role more comfortably. As I say, these are my own thoughts and assumptions, and there's plenty of room in the web for those who feel the Black Guard will be the better choice; in time, Mythic will reveal all.

As for the calvary issue, I'm not sure what you're getting at; yes, the Goblin Squig Herder is a pet class, but that it's ability; those, along with other skills no doubt, make the Squig Herder unique among the other classes, even whatever the HE pet class will be I'm sure. I don't think every class should have a pet because they do, because that's their niche. But the Chosen and the KotBS already have their own skills and unique abilities; to add mounted combat to that makes them a little overkill to my mind. Others, of course, will disagree with the conclusion I've drawn, but life would be dull if we all agreed.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Oh no I who heartedly like to see the Cold One Knight instead of the Black Guard .. well now that I think about it depends, but in anycase I was only pointing out to you that the Elitest argument was a bit invalid.

[Xurré]

M: It means Chaos has been secretly developing the dreaded ROFLCOPTER. May the gods have mercy on us all...
It’s more likely that the dwarfs are secretly developing a Roflcopter (http://oz.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/dwarfs/catalog/gyrocopter.htm). :p

Funny story though, even if it could be told like that for pretty much every army. ;)

First off, there has been speculation that the Black Guard might fill the role of DE tanker. Personally, I find that unlikely, for the same reason that I understand they didn't have Reiksguard as the tank for Empire, or how I think we're unlikely to see the Phoenix Guard turn up as the HE tank; both are the personal guard of the Emperor and the Phoenix King, respectively. The Black Guard, from the Warhammer background, are the elite personal guard of the Witch King himself, culled from the most potential prospects of his armies. To me, WAR is not a game that has you at its centre; you are not the saviour of your kind. It is a game, oddly enough, about war, about the teeming masses of common soldiers who struggle through the bloodshed and become, well, not so much heroes as just better soldiers. At the upper levels of the game, you're no saviour, you're a grizzled soldier whose seen enough death to drown the world. The Black Guard, being pretty much the best of the best, would have to START at level 30-35 to even get in, and to my mind that makes them unsuited to being a starting career; you don't begin as a Black Guard, you work your little elf ears off until you're considered such a badass that your liege and master himself gives you the spikiest black armour you've ever seen in your life and says "you're rolling with MY BOYS now" (that's right, Malkeith was Black). More likely, they will appear as the elite NPC guards of the DE city.
Hmm, as others have said them being ‘elite’ and the personal bodyguard of Malekith aren’t reasons for not including them. For one, Hammerers are the elite guards of the dwarf king and they’re in as a class too. And Phoenix Guards are likely to not be in because they aren’t allowed to talk (which wouldn’t work out very well for a social multiplayer game :p ). I’m not sure about Reiksguard, but I’m sure it was more because they had other very interesting and viable options available much more then them being elite or anything.

I also disagree with your assertion that we’re playing rank-and-file troops. Again as others have noted all the other classes are already special, they’re already head-and-shoulders above the basic troops. As such, as players, we’ll be playing special characters and yes we’ll be heroes by the end of the game. Perhaps not quite as powerful as some special characters (I’m sure it’ll take a good-sized group of level 40 characters to bring down Malekith for example), but heroes nonetheless.

Third, I also disagree with your point that one doesn’t start out as a Black Guard. I thought so too at first, but as it turns out you’re pretty much born as one. Black Guards are pretty much the result of very careful selective breeding as I understand it, making certain to keep their noble bloodline pure. As such it isn’t that you’re a basic warrior who proves him/herself and gets given black armor by Malekith, it’s that you’re trained from the moment you were born to be one of Malekith’s guards.

With that I think all your points against them pretty much fall flat. ;)

I’d love to see Cold One Knights (or Dread Knights) though. Their armor just looks awesome. And riding a Cold One into battle would just be fearsome.

Tankers aside, the other classes seem to be to be in a spot of confusion; although its largely felt that the sorcerer/sorceress is destined for the support role, I find it equally possible that it could wind up as the ranged damage class, and that support could be filled by the Witch Elf *gasps of shock, howls of disagreement*. Yes, a controversial view *further boos* but one I find would fit with their theme, considered from the prospective of the lore behind them. Witch Elves are all about a few key points; murder, slaughter, blood and eternal youth. The more of the first three they do, the longer the fourth part lasts. This could easily be adapted into the game as a class similar to the Warrior Priest; the longer the priest is in combat, the more "Holy Power" he aquires and the more effective his spells are. The Witch Elf could have a system where shedding blood (doing damage) allows her greater abilities, meaning she would be an effective combat-caster. Of course, she could also very easily be the DPS class; just idle musings.
Oh boy… that again. :roll:

You say you consider Witch Elves as support from the “prospective (and I think you mean perspective) of the lore behind them”. But I think you’re pretty much ignoring the lore if you think that Witches would make a good support class.

They’re all about murder, death, slaughter and blood. And they’re frenzied while doing so. They don’t stop to stand still to support someone else, they’re unstoppable killing machines.

The power of blood doesn’t come accidentally as it flies around; that would make no sense. Even the Cauldron of Blood only works because the cauldron is magic, drawing the potency out of the blood and infusing it into the Witch bathing in it.

You also say that Witches are about eternal youth. But I don’t think that’s true at all. They’re about Khaine and Khaine happens to reward them with eternal youth. But they’re no more about eternal youth than humans are about fingernails (simply because you have something doesn’t mean you’re about it). Khaine could’ve rewarded Witches with laserbeam eyes and it still wouldn’t change what they were about; it’s just that Khaine likes his brides eternally young instead of literally being able to give him looks that can kill. :p

Of course, I’d rather see Witches as such a support class than not at all, but it’s the role they’re least suited for (even ranged I can more easily see them be; dual repeater crossbows hailing a frenzy of barbed and poisoned crossbow bolts) and they’re the least suited for the class (even Assassins or Corsairs make more sense as support).

As a final point, I'd like to say that a a lot of people seem very firm about what may or may not be possible based upon the TT game. I myself have drawn a few ideas and based them upon that source, but it's important to remember Mythic has the rights to work with the Warhammer IP, not the game itself. For any of you who have read the books, comics or general fluff generated by the legions of writers Games Workshop have under its thrall (Dan Abnett FTW), you'll know that they often work outside of what you see on the TT, and have even gone some way to influencing it. The DE could be entirely different than what I've predicted, and I doubt more than 50% of what I said will end up being correct, but still, it's nice to dream.
I think most of us are all pretty familiar with the lore. The thing is though that the Darkblade novels, for the most part, seem to be based on the tabletop units. There is fairly little ‘new’ in there (just a different perspective on a few things). But I think we’re all fairly well aware of the general fluff.


- Xurré

[Zihark]

Well it was good post, but it started going down hill from the beginning, did you know that all the races are using their "elitest" troops
Ironbreaker and Hammerers are defnitly not rank and file Dwarf soilders, especily Hammerer, they are the personal body guards of the Dwarf Lords.

Same with Empire and the other races.
Also they have clealry not announced who on destruction side will have mounted combat but it has been "assumed" that it's going to be the chosen.

Well, to this I once again got to state that blackguards are way more rare then hammerers, considering they are a rare 0-1 choice while hammerers are a special choice. Im sorry to say it but black guards really are lot more "excluisve" then hammerers and any (most?) of the other current classes

[Grimfell Gromgear]

Well, to this I once again got to state that blackguards are way more rare then hammerers, considering they are a rare 0-1 choice while hammerers are a special choice. Im sorry to say it but black guards really are lot more "excluisve" then hammerers and any (most?) of the other current classes

Warrior Priest? That's a Hero level character.

[Thunderinsilence]

It’s more likely that the dwarfs are secretly developing a Roflcopter (http://oz.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/dwarfs/catalog/gyrocopter.htm). :p

Funny story though, even if it could be told like that for pretty much every army. ;)


Hmm, as others have said them being ‘elite’ and the personal bodyguard of Malekith aren’t reasons for not including them. For one, Hammerers are the elite guards of the dwarf king and they’re in as a class too. And Phoenix Guards are likely to not be in because they aren’t allowed to talk (which wouldn’t work out very well for a social multiplayer game :p ). I’m not sure about Reiksguard, but I’m sure it was more because they had other very interesting and viable options available much more then them being elite or anything.

I also disagree with your assertion that we’re playing rank-and-file troops. Again as others have noted all the other classes are already special, they’re already head-and-shoulders above the basic troops. As such, as players, we’ll be playing special characters and yes we’ll be heroes by the end of the game. Perhaps not quite as powerful as some special characters (I’m sure it’ll take a good-sized group of level 40 characters to bring down Malekith for example), but heroes nonetheless.

Third, I also disagree with your point that one doesn’t start out as a Black Guard. I thought so too at first, but as it turns out you’re pretty much born as one. Black Guards are pretty much the result of very careful selective breeding as I understand it, making certain to keep their noble bloodline pure. As such it isn’t that you’re a basic warrior who proves him/herself and gets given black armor by Malekith, it’s that you’re trained from the moment you were born to be one of Malekith’s guards.

With that I think all your points against them pretty much fall flat. ;)

I’d love to see Cold One Knights (or Dread Knights) though. Their armor just looks awesome. And riding a Cold One into battle would just be fearsome.


Oh boy… that again. :roll:

You say you consider Witch Elves as support from the “prospective (and I think you mean perspective) of the lore behind them”. But I think you’re pretty much ignoring the lore if you think that Witches would make a good support class.

They’re all about murder, death, slaughter and blood. And they’re frenzied while doing so. They don’t stop to stand still to support someone else, they’re unstoppable killing machines.

The power of blood doesn’t come accidentally as it flies around; that would make no sense. Even the Cauldron of Blood only works because the cauldron is magic, drawing the potency out of the blood and infusing it into the Witch bathing in it.

You also say that Witches are about eternal youth. But I don’t think that’s true at all. They’re about Khaine and Khaine happens to reward them with eternal youth. But they’re no more about eternal youth than humans are about fingernails (simply because you have something doesn’t mean you’re about it). Khaine could’ve rewarded Witches with laserbeam eyes and it still wouldn’t change what they were about; it’s just that Khaine likes his brides eternally young instead of literally being able to give him looks that can kill. :p

Of course, I’d rather see Witches as such a support class than not at all, but it’s the role they’re least suited for (even ranged I can more easily see them be; dual repeater crossbows hailing a frenzy of barbed and poisoned crossbow bolts) and they’re the least suited for the class (even Assassins or Corsairs make more sense as support).


I think most of us are all pretty familiar with the lore. The thing is though that the Darkblade novels, for the most part, seem to be based on the tabletop units. There is fairly little ‘new’ in there (just a different perspective on a few things). But I think we’re all fairly well aware of the general fluff.


- Xurré

Well that was a long one, so I'll tackle the points you raise as quickly as possible. Firstly, thanks for the comment on the sketch; it's true it could be said for just about any of the armies, but seeing as I was talking about the DE in particular I felt it fair to make them the stars of that little episode of madness.

Your first point has been raised before by a few people, and I admit, it can very well be argued that simply being elite does not discount the possibility of the Black Guard, but I still find them an exceedingly unlikely choice for any of the DE classes, and I stand by my reasoning behind it.

The second point I disagree with; yes, you start off as an elite troop (compared to the NPC grunts and such) but you are still a soldier, and remain one even with progress. That, as I stated in the origional post, is my own take on it, and I don't state it as fact, I put it to the world as my own thoughts. I don't want to play a hero, I have dozens of games that offer just that. WAR, to me, offers me something they don't; to be a soldier in an eternal war, always changing but never ending.

The third point I'm a little bemused about, I'm not aware of any background that says the Black Guard are bred, but my knowledge is not infinite so I can't say it doesn't exist. If so, it runs contrary to a few things I've read, but GW has always had a few tiny snarls in the lore that most are willing to forgive :)

Next, about my thoughts on the Witch Elves. I suggested an alternative view rather than saying I felt that was the role they were more suited for, and I suppose that's something we just have sperate views on. Yes, it's true that blood itself contains no magical properties (unless something has gone seriously awry) but blood itself is a powerful medium through which magic can be worked, and one of the symbols for Khaine (and DE in general) is, in fact, a stylised droplet of blood. Your argument is like saying the Warrior Priest, who gains Holy Power through combat (as a neccesary balancing mechanic for the purposes of the game) is blessed by Sigmar because the battle itself is holy, rather than the specific efforts of the priest themself. If that were the case, the medium (battle in general) would always draw the divine power of Sigmar, which is clearly doesn't. The mechanic I suggested the Witch-Elves could use in the support-caster role uses the shedding of blood (the medium) as a means to conduct their ritual magics.

The eternal youth comment is a bit of a circular one; yes, they are all about Khaine, but they are still Dark Elves, and the thought of eternal beauty to a race of cold-hearted perfectionists with superiority issues is one that I'm sure preys on the mind of the younger members, who look jealously at the senior priestesess hogging the baths of blood...Again, it's something that shows up in various bits of lore, but is never given as a 10% clear-cut fact.

As for the Darkblade novels; the novels I'm not as familiar with (as they're written more by Mike Lee than Mr. Abnett), but for all the books in general, yes, they contain many references to things that exist in the TT games, but they expand upon them, give them new meaning that they wouldn't have if you just took the models. That's what I was trying to get across in my previous comment.

In conclusion, only Mythic has any decent idea how the game will go; everything else is just speculation, and the world has more than enough room for two people to see the same argument from different angles.

[Xurré]

The third point I'm a little bemused about, I'm not aware of any background that says the Black Guard are bred, but my knowledge is not infinite so I can't say it doesn't exist. If so, it runs contrary to a few things I've read, but GW has always had a few tiny snarls in the lore that most are willing to forgive :)
It's actually in the current army book and very easy to miss (I read over it twice just trying to look for where the quote was again):

Stubborn: Raised from birth to protect the Witch King himself, Black Guard would rather die than give ground. Black Guard are stubborn (see page 85 of the Warhammer rulebook).
Clearly states that they are raised from birth. But because it's under the special rules it's easy to miss. :)


On a side note, if you think your original post was long you haven't seen anything yet. ;)


- Xurré

[roadkizzle]

I admit, Xurre has had some of the longest posts that I have EVER seen...

Especially with the darkblade books giving hags blood magic, I can definately see the people at Mythic extrapolating that into something similar to what Thunder suggested.

It is definately not a very popular opinion, or necessarily likely, but it is definately in the realm of possibilities, and must be considered as such.

It would give Destruction a very unique healer, unlike the two quite similar ones they already have.

[Gaazruk]

After reading this post I thought about laughing, but after carefully thinking about the pros and cons of laughing, I decided laughing would be too much of a risk.

[Tae]

There also appears to be a lot of speculation about the suitability of the next contender for the DE tank slot, the Cold One Knight. This is based largely around the fact that there is much confusion over how many mounted-combat classes there are likely to be. My thoughts on this are simple; there is not enough evidence to suggest to me there will only be one such class per Order and Destruction faction.

"Not enough evidence to suggest to [you] that there will only be one such class per Order and Descrution faction"?

How about Paul's interview: http://files.filefront.com/OWGrimBalt.wmv/;7873169;/fileinfo.html

Q - "Which careers will be able to fight while mounted?"
A - "One for Order. One for Destruction

Seriously, can it get more clear-cut than that ? As to whether KotBS and Chosen are the classes is more open to question (though if you've watched any of the podcasts/videos, it's not a huge amount more open to question).

In fact, I interpret a lot of the evidence displayed to support such arguments as meaning that the Chosen and KofBS will simply be better at it than other classes, as is right in their role as knightly characters. I have little doubt there will be mounted classes for the DE and HE respectively that will be more suited to mounted combat than their fellow classes.

I have quite a lot of doubt, mainly due to the above quote.

One mounted class able to fight whilst mounted for Order, one for Destruction. They both already have one. That means no Elf classes able to fight whilst mounted.

I cannot comment about the Dwarf/Greenskin pairing until I see more info on dwarf mounts, but I'd hazard a guess to say they may have a similiar mix.

Ignoring the 'one mounted class each realm' point, Dwarfs would never, ever, fight on a mount anyway. So you'd never see any mounted combat from a Dwarf class short of a Gyrocopter.

After all, it seems silly to me that any class should be unable to attack from a mount, considering the fact that no one in Warhammer Lore seems to have much of a problem with riding AND attacking.

Mounted units in the TT are balanced by other means - notably their points cost. WAR has no points cost, therefore has to balance in other ways. Chief amongst these is not including mounted combat.

Not to mention the fact that ranged users should never be allowed to fight mounted, ever.

This is war after all; calvary has played a part in wars in Warhamer since the very beginning.

And it's playing a part in WAR - see KotBS and Chosen. It's just not playing a big part.

[Kellaris]

I admit, Xurre has had some of the longest posts that I have EVER seen...

I can confirm that ;)


Especially with the darkblade books giving hags blood magic, I can definately see the people at Mythic extrapolating that into something similar to what Thunder suggested.

It is definately not a very popular opinion, or necessarily likely, but it is definately in the realm of possibilities, and must be considered as such.

It would give Destruction a very unique healer, unlike the two quite similar ones they already have.

True. Also, Witch would be much better buffer than Sorceress (forget the Blood Magic, it is enough to look at her and Your morale is better ;))

Maybe this idea do not mach TT Witches, but I would prefer to see Witches as support.
Even if this would mean that there will be no shade :(.
At least, it would not be choppa mirror. It would be unique (check) and it would be Witch (check)

[Xurré]

I can confirm that ;)
:oops:

True. Also, Witch would be much better buffer than Sorceress (forget the Blood Magic, it is enough to look at her and Your morale is better ;))
ROFL :lol:

Seriously though. I'd rather see Witches as support than not at all. But I'm having a very hard time seeing how they can stay true to them like that, for numerous reasons I've mentioned numerous times before.


- Xurré

[Vikingkingq]

That's not quite what I meant by my use of the term Elite; the point is that you don't start as a Black Guard, you get elevated to it. You can start out as an Witch Hunter, or a Black Orc (no helping that, it's genetics), but I don't see the Black Guard working up from starting level characters; they'd need to be higher level to even be considered for the position.

You absolutely cannot start out as a Witch Hunter. The Order of the Templars of Sigmar has a grueling application process where you're stabbed, poisoned, brought to death's door, and then interrogated over and over again to see if you'll break under torture. If you survive this process, then you get to become an apprentice, which means you spend a year learning to fight with sharpened steel and live powder (a dangerous regime to say the last), learning the occult lore of the Order, and accompanying Witch Hunters on missions. If you survive the year, you get to go through another grueling initiation, and then, and only then, are you a Witch Hunter.

[The Masked Prince]

:oops:


ROFL :lol:

Seriously though. I'd rather see Witches as support than not at all. But I'm having a very hard time seeing how they can stay true to them like that, for numerous reasons I've mentioned numerous times before.


- Xurré


Witches are ine a daze when they fight, the more they kill and the more blood is being spread around them, the more they become crazy into the fight.
They could have buff abilities in the game.
They have the cauldron of blood in warhammer,
and they heal themselves into the blood of their victimes.
It is a good and interresting adaptation of the lore I think.

Before we knew the Empire classes, I guess many people didn't think the warrior priest would be a support class.
With his heavy armor and his hammer, he could be a tank or something like that...
But still as a healer, his place is in the mele and he can be impressive in this role I suppose.
Order has 1 mele support class, destruction has to have the same.

Could be the same for witche elves.
I believe they'd be a mele support class.

[Xurré]

Order has 1 mele support class, destruction has to have the same.
I don't see why. In fact, if it is so important to have a melee support class on the destruction side then it would make a lot more sense if they had designed the Zealot to function that way. After all, not only did they pretty much have free reign with that class (since they invented it), it's also the one that's matched up against the Warrior Priest.

It makes almost no sense whatsoever to take the unit among the dark elves that's the least suitable to being a healer/support class and then turn it into a support class simply because, what, a class perfectly suitable for the position is taking the spot of another class perfectly suitable for another position?

People have been saying that Sorceresses are really about doing damage at range. For one I don't agree with that at all, and secondly if that's true for them then it's even more true that Witch Elves are all about doing damage up-close. In fact, I'd say that there isn't a single unit that's more about doing damage up close. not the Assassin (who is about sneaking around and surprising you so that they can do one single burst of damage in that), not the Executioner (who is about a single-hit kill, not about a period of sustained damage), not Corsairs, not Black Guards, not Beastmasters, not any of them is even close to being about doing damage in melee.

What's more is that they're frenzied while doing it, meaning that they don't have the attention to seeing who needs healing/support and who doesn't. This means that it would make no sense whatsoever for them to reposition themselves to be close to the one who needs to benefit from their 'healing aura' (i.e. the blood spatter they cause). On top of that it makes no sense for random blood spatter to heal anything as it needs some kind of magical infusion (like an atrifact such as the Cauldron of Blood, for which 'healing' is arguable as it heals about as much as a make-up set can bandage wounds).

They're a unit which is very directly about killing, about murder, about taking lives. To twist that, somehow, into them being about healing is like saying that the Pope is about Devil Worship or that Ghandi encouraged waging war. it's damn near close to being sacrilege for them to be healers.

The only reason why they'd heal anyone is just so they can kill them again. And while I agree that the high elves will need all the help they can get, making a unit on the dark elves a healer for them isn't really going to work.


- Xurré

[The Masked Prince]

mmm you think too much, and this is a hasty conclusion.

The witch elves who use the cauldron knows how to buff their allies with blood,
and they certainely have knowledges in evil spells.

it could be those witch elves, with a more appropriate name for their role in support for exemple.

You need to pay attention with the lore too, not only their role in the warhammer battle game.
They are really linked with blood to heal themselves.

[Selendor]

not the Assassin (who is about sneaking around and surprising you so that they can do one single burst of damage in that)

An Assassin would absolutely paste any melee unit we've seen thus far except perhaps a very powerful Chaos Chosen, regardless of whether they got the jump. Anything Witch Elves can do, Assassins can do 10x as well, with the exception of bikini modeling. Bad example.

They're a unit which is very directly about killing, about murder, about taking lives.

Aren't all Dark Elves? I'd disagree with Witch Elves being least suited to the healing role. They're certainly better suited than Black Guard, Executioners (lol), Corsairs, or any number of units that, both in the TT mechanics and the fluff, have no knowledge of magic or first aid or supernatural abilities of any kind. They're in the top 3 candidates for healing, if you're looking at it logically. The fact is, Dark Elves really don't heal. At all. It's not part of their thing - they're about killing, not protecting. But they still need a healer archetype. There's basically 3 options here.

Sorceress - Dark magic/soulstealing.
Witch Elf - Frenzy buffs/Blood Magic
Slavemaster - First aid/Buffs (this one's a stretch and I don't expect it)

That leaves 2 options for Dark Elf healing - the Sorceress, and the Witch Elf. Now, no Dark Elf fan wants to see their favorite unit "reduced" to a healing/support role, simply because the race tends to attract a certain fanbase that enjoys the concept of murder, dark magic, treachery, tactics...everything that's the antithesis to warm and fuzzy healing. But it's going to be one of those two, and as far as I'm concerned they're both equally suited.

[Kellaris]

I don't see why. In fact, if it is so important to have a melee support class on the destruction side then it would make a lot more sense if they had designed the Zealot to function that way. After all, not only did they pretty much have free reign with that class (since they invented it), it's also the one that's matched up against the Warrior Priest.
- Xurré
It is quite funny.
You don't see why destruction should have melee healer if order have one.
But If HE are going to have pet class You belive that the only way to balance it is making DE pet class.
You should understand that this is Order vs Destruction war.
We are going to start in DE vs HE battle, but in the endgame we will travel to sack every city in Warhammer world. Well, at least I will.;)
If Mythic is going to balance greenskin pet with HE pet, why not Empire melee healer with DE melee healer.


In fact, I'd say that there isn't a single unit that's more about doing damage up close. not the Assassin (who is about sneaking around and surprising you so that they can do one single burst of damage in that)
- Xurré
Mobility, suprise and great damage dealing. Assasin is a Dark Elf army in one elf...


, not the Executioner (who is about a single-hit kill, not about a period of sustained damage),
- Xurré
We have hammerers in game.


They're a unit which is very directly about killing, about murder, about taking lives.
- Xurré
Like all Drichii.......

[The Masked Prince]

Yes exactly.

But even if the witch elves are reduced to a heal class (for me this absolutely not pejorative, on the contrary),
I believe they still be good for dps in mele, no worries about that.

and yes they are defenetly balancing order VS destruction,
making the races paring exactly the same would be boring,
the HE pet class is going to balance the greenskins one,
so could do the witch elves as a support class: balancing the warrior priest.

I will go further,
I think they need to balance the witch hunter (a rogue type class), even more if high elves are getting also one as dps mele.
So I still think assassins are going to make it as the dps, they are truly iconic, and darkelves can't do it without them.

What's the point with making a dps class like the witch elves who are just going to rush the enemies and fight like furies?
we alwready have choppa and marauders...
The elves must add something we don't have on both sides, more subtility.
That's why I tink assassins fit better, I want to stab my enemies in the back like a true , and kill them with dirty tricks.
That's the dark elf way of fighting!

Moreover, assassin can only be DPS, nothing else, contrary to the witch elves as support.

[Black Razor]

When commenting on the Marauder then stated that they are basing the classes designs off table top rules and not the fiction, and in tabletop .. witches don't use magic ..any magic .. not blood, not any. In fact its tabletop that clearly states that Khaine disdains magic and wont allow his followers to use it .. so if they are indeed drawing only from tabletop as they have stated, then witches + magic = no. Hags draw there power from the cauldron as a religious relic.. they themselves have no magic, and the cauldron of blood being used by characters on the field of battle ..also gotta go with not going to happen. Yes the cauldron does buff nearby allies (though not really heal) so from that standpoint it could work ... but its effectively an artillery piece (and a rare one) for the sake of tabletop and to my knowledge there arn't mini 'kegs o' blood' so I just cant see that as a viable excuse for a single character to have a cauldron, and though they have hinted to some degree there will be artillery, I cant see cauldrons being strategically placed on the field for anyone to use. Now .. heres an interesting though .. just something that occurred to me and I don't think its right .. I actually hope to Khaine it isn't .. but its been sudo leaked/ hinted to that the dark elves will have two female only class? Everyone assumes its Witches and Sorceress, but what if its not? I mean Paul said all that time back that there will be male Sorcerers yes? Sooo what if they make Witch Elves (Female Only) the melee, Sorcerer/Sorceress the ranged, and Hag (Female Only) as a support class.. scary thought huh?

[The Masked Prince]

So the cauldron is a religious relic, right...
If witches are the support class, their healing and buffing powers could come from a religious statut.
The warrior priest is not really a mage either...this is only faith.
And witch elves could be some sort of priest.
They adore Khaine as their own god of murder, everything is just fine.
There are plenty of pictures with them, holding a glass full of blood, they don't absolutely need a cauldron.

I think Mtyhic doesn't know yet if they are going to make witch elves a gender restricted class,
it seems weird to hesitate about that, but that's hows Mythic's answers about that sound to me.
Sorcerers were supposed to have both genders, but since chaos are male restricted,
they may want to balance it with two female only class for the dark elves.
Personnally I think it's a pitty, choice is important, and order has absolutely no gender restricted carer.
It could have consequences on destruction's popularity, and make it less populated...

[Heno]

When commenting on the Marauder then stated that they are basing the classes designs off table top rules and not the fiction, and in tabletop .. witches don't use magic ..any magic .. not blood, not any.

In tabletop things like "Healing spells" are near non existant. And squig herders only have one squig. And Marauders on;y have one mutation, and never really do it in Battle.

And Zealots don't exist of course (YEt :)

These examples aren't the best, but it's late, I could come up with better in the morning mayb. They've taken lots of liberties so far, i'm sure there'll be more to come!

[Kellaris]

Just come to my mind, that WE healer class would solve one of biggest anti witch issues.
Choppa mirroring.
In that situation, we could have for example:
Witch - unique melee healer
Black Guard - unique halbard wielding tank
Shade - unique shooter
Assasin or Executioner - unique damage dealer
Uniqe in destruction of course.

[The Masked Prince]

Just come to my mind, that WE healer class would solve one of biggest anti witch issues.
Choppa mirroring.
In that situation, we could have for example:
Witch - unique melee healer
Black Guard - unique halbard wielding tank
Shade - unique shooter
Assasin or Executioner - unique damage dealer
Uniqe in destruction of course.

I think you're right,
except that you forgot the sorcerer.

-support: witch elf
-range dps: sorcerer
-mele dps: assassin
-tank:mmm I don't really like the idea of having a heavy armored tank...
We alwready have black orc and chosen.
I see something very different for the elves, they shouldn't count on their armor and their physical strengh but rather with doges and weapons abilities.
Like an untouchable fighter.

[Xurré]

I’m really, really perplexed at how some people are suddenly suggesting that Witches would make the perfect support character and, what’s weirder still, that nobody is called them on this absurdity yet (except for me). It’s like this thread has suddenly turned upside down and people now believe that black is white and up is down.

So sorry that this is quotes galore again.


The witch elves who use the cauldron knows how to buff their allies with blood,
and they certainely have knowledges in evil spells.
Since when?

The Witch Elves who guard the Cauldron of Blood most certainly don’t do anything to buff their allies, least of all with blood. The Cauldron is a magical artifact... it radiates evil power... power that drives the dark elves into fury, which increases the Witches’ frenzy and which protects the Witch Elves: “The baleful energies seeping from the Cauldron give all Witch Elves within 24'' of it a 6+ Ward save.” The guardians have nothing to do with any of what the Cauldron does... they’re just there to guard it.

On top of that Witch Elves don’t use magic. Period. I’ve suggested giving them some blood magic in the past, yes, but only as a high-level ability (and then only very little to add a little extra flavor to them). They most certainly don’t have enough magic to base their entire role in battle on.

You need to pay attention with the lore too, not only their role in the warhammer battle game.
They are really linked with blood to heal themselves.
Again, since when? Give me proof, give me quotes. I’ve have never read of a Witch Elf using blood to heal herself, let alone anyone else. (And no, I don’t consider ‘rejuvenation’ healing themselves... it’s more the magical equivalent of plastic surgery.)


An Assassin would absolutely paste any melee unit we've seen thus far except perhaps a very powerful Chaos Chosen, regardless of whether they got the jump. Anything Witch Elves can do, Assassins can do 10x as well, with the exception of bikini modeling. Bad example.
Heh, if I read the fluff right then even a Master Assassin is no match for a decently trained Knight in a face-to-face battle. Though I admit that this encounter didn’t really make much sense to me.

Either way, though, Assassins’ defining ability is jumping out at enemies from an unseen position. And one could argue that if Witch Elves are brought up to the point level of Assassins (i.e. Make them ten times stronger to match up in power) then Witches would wipe the floor with Assassins in face-to-face melee. After all, in a game all units need to be fairly balanced against each other, right?

Aren't all Dark Elves?
Sure, all dark elves are about killing and murder, but “nowhere is this more evident than in the beautiful and deadly Witch Elves, who serve in the Temples of Khaine and revel in violence and bloodshed.” Witches are the priestesses of murder and death and killing and bloodshed. Saying that all dark elves are just as much about death and murder and killing is like saying that the average bloke on the street (who might not even be a Christian) is just as religious as the Pope.

I'd disagree with Witch Elves being least suited to the healing role. They're certainly better suited than Black Guard, Executioners (lol), Corsairs, or any number of units that, both in the TT mechanics and the fluff, have no knowledge of magic or first aid or supernatural abilities of any kind. They're in the top 3 candidates for healing, if you're looking at it logically. The fact is, Dark Elves really don't heal. At all. It's not part of their thing - they're about killing, not protecting. But they still need a healer archetype. There's basically 3 options here.
Really now. Let’s examine that. And remember, magical healing certainly isn’t the only kind of healing that exists.

Let’s take the Black Guards first. They’re bodyguards, right? And elite bodyguards at that, responsible for keeping the most important (arguably) individual among the dark elves alive. Don’t you think that somewhere in their elite bodyguard training they’d have been taught the basics of first aid, you know, just in case something does happen to their charge?

Then Executioners. Their trick is killing with a single blow, right? Well, don’t you think that this trick is a lot easier to perform if you know enough about anatomy to actually know where the most lethal spots are? If I were training people to be executioners then I’d make certain to at least give them the basics in healing first. And before you argue the same of Witch Elves... Witches don’t care where they strike, they just strike again and again and again for as long as is needed to kill their opponent (sounding very melee dps to me). In fact they can cut the tip of your finger and kill you with that due to the poison they use; poison doesn’t care where it enters the bloodstream to kill.

Then Corsairs. I’ve argued this before (more tongue-in-cheek, I admit, but I’ll get to that in a moment), but if they’re spending all this time at sea don’t you think that people would tend to get sick now and again? And don’t you think they’d be well served with knowing some rudiments of dealing with that as well as dealing with injuries they might sustain during raids?

The point is, all of these are fairly weak arguments for what would make a healing class... but they’re a lot stronger arguments for what would make Witches a good healing class. Witches have no healing abilities... they’re not in the state of mind to be healing... even if they had healing abilities and were in the state of mind to it’d go directly against their religion to heal... in fact everything about them points to them being anti-healers instead of healers.

And I know we all feel “well, dark elves just don’t heal; it’s not their thing” and that it true enough... but of all the dark elves it’s not only furthest removed for Witch Elves... it’s down right the opposite of what they are.

Luckily there actually is one dark elf who not already has healing abilities, but for whom it would make perfect sense to be the support class. And yes, that’s plural, as she has not one but two spells which both work by stealing souls to heal. Sounds like a perfectly good gameplay mechanic to me that doesn’t exist yet in the game. It makes perfect sense for the Sorceress to stand back and have an overview of the battle, sending extra damage where needed, or sending debuffs as support where needed, or sending heals to those of her troops that need it. A Sorceress is a manipulator, someone who’s in control. And that sounds exactly like a support class to me.

No need to invert the function of another class (or invent a new class) to get a support role; the dark elves already have the perfect one!


It is quite funny.
You don't see why destruction should have melee healer if order have one.
But If HE are going to have pet class You belive that the only way to balance it is making DE pet class.
Where did I say that? In fact, I’ve been saying from the beginning that I think dark elves should have a Beastmaster as a ranged class despite thinking at the time that high elves wouldn’t get one. Of course it’s easiest to match pet class against pet class, just as it would be easiest to match melee healer against melee healer (i.e. the Zealot). But considering that Mythic didn’t make the Zealot a melee healer (I think, I’m not altogether certain how exactly the Zealot works) they apparently felt that the Zealot was a perfect match against the melee healer as it is.

So tell me again why Destruction would need a melee healer if Mythic apparently already felt that they didn’t have to design the Zealot, who would’ve been the perfect candidate to do so, for this? Tell me again how it would make perfect sense to miss this perfect opportunity to do this, apparently (though nobody has explained why yet), vital style balancing and instead pull another unit so far inside-out that it becomes the inverse of what it’s supposed to be?

If Mythic is going to balance greenskin pet with HE pet, why not Empire melee healer with DE melee healer.
Because they’re not balancing the greenskins pet class with a high elves pet class... they’re balancing the greenskins pet class with the dwarf Engineer as those two are matched up against each other.

Does it really make sense to you that high elves need to abandon their land just so that they can play the proper counter to the Squig Herder in the dwarf lands? It certainly doesn’t to me.

Mobility, suprise and great damage dealing. Assasin is a Dark Elf army in one elf...
One could say that this would automatically disqualify them from being a career in a team-based multiplayer game. But anyway.

We have hammerers in game.
I have no idea what that has to do with Executioners being based on a one-hit kill. Though I must admit that, being Bodyguards in tabletop, Hammerers don’t really make sense as a melee dps class. Seems that being unable to implement Slayers forced Mythic to do some very weird things.


I believe they still be good for dps in mele, no worries about that.
I do worry, because I fear it wouldn’t feel like Witch Elves. Ignoring the enemy right in front of you because you need to reposition so that your blood spatters can heal the dark elves needing healing and standing over there with that other enemy? That’s precisely what Witch Elves don’t do... first the guy in front of me has to die and then I’ll look for the nearest next guy... any beneficial effect I might give my allies be damned. And I don’t think that it’s a good idea to design a class to purposely step out of character to be able to fulfill their role in the game.

What's the point with making a dps class like the witch elves who are just going to rush the enemies and fight like furies?
Again, what’s up with furies? What do furies have to do with anything?

we alwready have choppa and marauders...
Yes, because they’re both melee dps classes. It’d make sense that the dark elf melee dps class would, you know, do damage in melee just as those two. Heck, I’ll go out on a limb here and suggest that even if they use Assassins or Executioners or whatever else for this role then those are, gasp, going mostly do damage in melee as well, just like the Choppa and the Marauders. In fact, I’m sure that for those classes it’ll be just as much “rush the enemies and fight like furies” as well because, you know, that’s what the role entails. And there’s no class better suited to it than Witch Elves.

Moreover, assassin can only be DPS, nothing else, contrary to the witch elves as support.
I’d argue that Assassins would make a perfect ranged class. Like a sniper, shooting at enemies from a hidden position and firing poisoned bolts. Or, perhaps, they’d make a good parry/dodge based tank. With their high weapon skill and leet abilities they, I’m sure, can stand their own deflecting blows until the enemy is so tired they can’t lift their weapon anymore. Heck, they’d make a great support class too by letting them smear blood on their daggers and stabbing people until they magically heal, which makes more sense than Witch Elves doing the same since Witches aren’t lucid enough in battle to realize that they need to stop trying to kill and start trying to heal. :roll:


to my knowledge there arn't mini 'kegs o' blood' so I just cant see that as a viable excuse for a single character to have a cauldron
Ugh, you just put the image in my mind of a Witch Elf with a keg around their neck like a Saint Bernard dog, joyfully prancing from wounded victim to wounded victim to help them recover their wounds. I think I’ll cry myself to sleep tonight. :(


There are plenty of pictures with them, holding a glass full of blood, they don't absolutely need a cauldron.
Uh, they hold that glass because they drink it, and not to heal or anything, but to get themselves into a frenzy. That blood you see in those goblets is poisoned... not really something you’d want to give to drink to a wounded person (and no, it’ not magical).

I think Mtyhic doesn't know yet if they are going to make witch elves a gender restricted class,
it seems weird to hesitate about that, but that's hows Mythic's answers about that sound to me.
I’m fairly certain they do know... they just hesitate to talk about it because they’re not allowed to talk about it yet by marketing.

Personnally I think it's a pitty, choice is important, and order has absolutely no gender restricted carer.
It could have consequences on destruction's popularity, and make it less populated...
Some have suggested that that’s exactly the point... look for instance at the trailer, at the Chaos vs Empire battle... that big, hulking, dark-looking and menacing Chaos warrior that’s beating the snot out of the Warrior Priest is going to draw a lot of people. And I’d say that the Witch Elf in the trailer is damn well going to draw more people to dark elves than the mage is going to do for high elves.

And no, the “people thought that of WoW too” argument doesn’t fly... because in WoW you could either play the side with ugly and monsterous looking character or the side with the standard fantasy races. In WAR both sides have fairly standard races (elves against elves, humans again humans, and the greenskins against the dwarfs with one being a popular ‘evil’ choice and the other a very unpopular ‘good’ choice).

Though I’m not convinced in the least that a number of gender-restricted careers are going to make anywhere close to a significant impact. Certainly not to the extend that it isn’t made up by the popularity of some of these gender-restricted classes (whether you like it or not).


- Xurré

[The Disciple]

After what Xurré posted this seems like an incredibly lazy response.

But I agree with Xurré 100% witch elves should not be support class and I think if you take the time to read what Xurré posted, you'll understand why.

[Bulwyf]

I think everyone knows Xurre and I agree probably once every other blue moon but I totally agree that WE are about the worst idea for the healing support class as there can be. I can buy them as melee DPS and *possibly but extremely remotely* as the tank class as some kind of insane dodge tank. And even then they would 100% better as a melee DPS class.

[Morag]

Yeah, if Witch Elves are in it's hard to picture them as anything but melee dps. Sorcerer/ess seems highly likely to fill the healer role too. Unless Mythic is going to make up a new class it seems to make the most logical sense. I think Assassins would be cool, but I am against them for one of the same reasons I am against Witch Elves. We have enough gender restricted careers on destruction.

I think you all need to have some faith in Mythic. I can't honestly see them twisting a class so much from it's main purpose in TT just to fit them in a role that has much better options. If you look at what they've done with the other four armies none of the careers are really a stretch for the role they have. In any sort of situation where a role is found to have no real good matching TT unit then they have created something that fits and makes sense with the IP.

[Barundin]

When commenting on the Marauder then stated that they are basing the classes designs off table top rules and not the fiction, and in tabletop .. witches don't use magic ..any magic .. not blood, not any. In fact its tabletop that clearly states that Khaine disdains magic and wont allow his followers to use it .. so if they are indeed drawing only from tabletop as they have stated, then witches + magic = no. Hags draw there power from the cauldron as a religious relic.. they themselves have no magic, and the cauldron of blood being used by characters on the field of battle ..also gotta go with not going to happen. Yes the cauldron does buff nearby allies (though not really heal) so from that standpoint it could work ... but its effectively an artillery piece (and a rare one) for the sake of tabletop and to my knowledge there arn't mini 'kegs o' blood' so I just cant see that as a viable excuse for a single character to have a cauldron, and though they have hinted to some degree there will be artillery, I cant see cauldrons being strategically placed on the field for anyone to use. Now .. heres an interesting though .. just something that occurred to me and I don't think its right .. I actually hope to Khaine it isn't .. but its been sudo leaked/ hinted to that the dark elves will have two female only class? Everyone assumes its Witches and Sorceress, but what if its not? I mean Paul said all that time back that there will be male Sorcerers yes? Sooo what if they make Witch Elves (Female Only) the melee, Sorcerer/Sorceress the ranged, and Hag (Female Only) as a support class.. scary thought huh?

In the TT marauders are just normal human barbarians. Often used by chaos players as screens or outright cannon fodder... just saying ;)

[The Masked Prince]

I've not been talking about magic but about faith.
You should see the link witch elves have with a priest statut.
As I said It won't be exactly the same witche elves, but they could use that to adapt them as a support class.

With "furies" I just meant that witch elves are frenetic into the battle.
But they are pretty the same as choopa or marauder, with a nicer look.
OK every DPS mele class has to...dps...
but they are different way of doing that.
Darkelves have to bring subtility, also for DPS, and assassins are better for that than witch elves.
We need more rogue type class like the witch hunter, since destruction has absolutely 0 classes like that.
You know a class that kill you from behind, a very vicious one, darkelves is the only race that enables such a class( with skavens, but it's not for now).
So they'd better not miss it.
Of course assassins could be range DPS, even if it would be different that their true role in warhammer battle.
It's maybe the same with saying witches being a support class.
Well that's my hopes, we'l see soon.


Xurré, you shouldn't only think of the how to adapt the dark elf 's lore,
but alos what will it add to the destruction?
From a gameplay and visual point of view how can elves give something different to balance the game?

[Morag]

I've not been talking about magic but about faith.
You should see the link witch elves have with a priest statut.
As I said It won't be exactly the same witche elves, but they could use that to adapt them as a support class.

They could adapt Witch Elves to fill the support role, but is it what Witch Elves are about, like at all? I see where you're coming from, but I don't think there is a need to hammer Witch Elves in to a support role when there are better options, like the Sorcerer/ess.

With "furies" I just meant that witch elves are frenetic into the battle.
But they are pretty the same as choopa or marauder, with a nicer look.

I agree that they sound very similar to Choppas. Both go berserk in battle, both focus on dual wielding, etc. However, I don't really see the connection between Witch Elves and Marauders other than Marauders are melee dps and Witch Elves are likely to be the same should they be in. Marauders mutate their bodies in to crazy things like sword arms, crab claws, spikey bits, etc. I am pretty sure Witch Elves don't mutate.

OK every DPS mele class has to...dps...
but they are different way of doing that.
Darkelves have to bring subtility, also for DPS, and assassins are better for that than witch elves.
We need more rogue type class like the witch hunter, since destruction has absolutely 0 classes like that.
You know a class that kill you from behind, a very vicious one, darkelves is the only race that enables such a class( with skavens, but it's not for now).
So they'd better not miss it.
Of course assassins could be range DPS, even if it would be different that their true role in warhammer battle.
It's maybe the same with saying witches being a support class.
Well that's my hopes, we'l see soon.

So far they have done a pretty decent job of making the melee dps classes fairly unique from each other. We have dual wielding, berserking, sword/pistol, and mutations. From what I understand the Choppa is a pretty vicious career that utilizes positional attacks. I know you want a more rogue-like class, but with no stealth in the game you could really make any melee class fit the description you want. You could (for the sake of argument) give Witch Elves a bunch of high damage attacks that could only be used from behind someone. Anyways, I personally hope they picked Executioners for the melee dps. There isn't really a dps class that focuses on two-handed weapons and I think Executioners are cool.

Xurré, you shouldn't only think of the how to adapt the dark elf 's lore,
but alos what will it add to the destruction?
From a gameplay and visual point of view how can elves give something different to balance the game?

I agree with you that people should try to keep the whole game in mind when arguing about which units should make it in and which shouldn't. Right now it just feels like a coin flip to me. I think that it's too hard to try to guess what Mythic has planned. Despite how much everyone goes back and forth no one has really come up with anything to convince me certain units are going to be a lock when they announce the careers in a couple weeks.

[Black Razor]

In the TT marauders are just normal human barbarians. Often used by chaos players as screens or outright cannon fodder... just saying ;)

You assume they are going to be any different in the MMO? Thats not a comment on the marauder but all DPS in general .. watch most PVP matches .. there almost always the first ones in and usually the first to die. Its the nature of a DPSer .. candle that burns brightest and all that.

[Vikingkingq]

You assume they are going to be any different in the MMO? Thats not a comment on the marauder but all DPS in general .. watch most PVP matches .. there almost always the first ones in and usually the first to die. Its the nature of a DPSer .. candle that burns brightest and all that.

In the MMO, they have giant crab-claws of doom. That's a bit of a difference.

[Xurré]

I've not been talking about magic but about faith.
You should see the link witch elves have with a priest statut.
As I said It won't be exactly the same witche elves, but they could use that to adapt them as a support class.
I can accept divine power as the fuel to healing abilities in general, though I also feel it’s a cop-out answer (that already has been used for three of the support classes in WAR). But one important aspect of that is the divine power in question. And in the case of Khaine the divine power is not one anyone would readily associate with healing. In fact, healing is the opposite of what Khaine stands for.

And that is one of the main reasons I don’t think Witch Elves (however changed) are suitable as a support class; because it’s against the divine power they stand for.

With "furies" I just meant that witch elves are frenetic into the battle.
But they are pretty the same as choopa or marauder, with a nicer look.
OK every DPS mele class has to...dps...
but they are different way of doing that.
Darkelves have to bring subtility, also for DPS, and assassins are better for that than witch elves.
I really don’t see how Witch Elves are pretty much the same as Choppas… pretty much the only thing that they have in common within their role is frenzy, and the way I see it they have very different approaches to it. Choppas are all about brute strength and wild hacking. Witch Elves are far more about grace and movement, more slicing. Witch Elves add a lot more subtlety in being far more vulnerable, in having access to poisons, in choosing when to trigger their frenzy (Choppas automatically seem to go into it, Witch Elves first have to drink poisoned blood), etc.

An Assassin might be better suited for subtlety, I won’t deny that. But Assassins get most of their subtlety from abilities which are already said to not be in the game (not to mention that they’re a really unoriginal-style class). Assassins are much more about hiding and sneaking and infiltration and stealth (so if such classes ever get added to the game then Assassins are first in line for the dark elves). Witch Elves, however, are far more about getting in your face and ripping you to shreds, which is exactly how the melee dps role is described to be.

We need more rogue type class like the witch hunter, since destruction has absolutely 0 classes like that.
Again, you fail to explain why. Why is it so important that both factions have the same style classes? Should the high elves have mindless, green-skinned barbarians? Because Order currently has no such classes. Should the high elves get a class which randomly changes shape? Because again it doesn’t have any of those.

As it is, with just the classes we know exist already, people who want to play a rogue-type class already have a career to play: on the Order side. While it could be argued that those who want to play a chainmail bikini-type class are currently out of luck, so the game needs that class much more than yet another rogue-type class.

And don’t be mistaken, it’s very likely that dark elves do indeed get a more rogue-type class; just not in the melee dps slot. It’s quite likely that they get this class in the ranged slot either in the form of the Shade or the Beastmaster, both of which fit the type well enough while still being different enough from the stereotype.

Xurré, you shouldn't only think of the how to adapt the dark elf 's lore,
but alos what will it add to the destruction?
From a gameplay and visual point of view how can elves give something different to balance the game?
Be very carefully when you say “visual point of view”, because I know one potential career which offers a visual style that’s quite unique compared to the currently announced classes. :p

Beyond that I think you’re way too willing to change adept the lore to suit some arbitrary requirement in making both sides the same. Mythic had the perfect opportunity to balance certain play styles within Chaos already, if they missed it there then the only conclusion one can come to is that it’s not that important to them. And I agree, there’s no reason that just because Order has a melee healer then Desctruction needs one too. After all, in the end we’re all likely to be in the thick of battle and all classes have their strengths and weaknesses.

I agree that dark elves should be unique, but one doesn’t have to change what they are to do so because they already are unique, they already are different from the current races. If anything I’m more afraid of them turned out to be mirror copies of the high elves (as I’ve tried to discuss in another thread).

Let the dark elves be the dark elves, let their classes most suited to the specific roles fill those roles, and they will be different from the other races.


- Xurré

[The Masked Prince]

I can accept divine power as the fuel to healing abilities in general, though I also feel it’s a cop-out answer (that already has been used for three of the support classes in WAR). But one important aspect of that is the divine power in question. And in the case of Khaine the divine power is not one anyone would readily associate with healing. In fact, healing is the opposite of what Khaine stands for.


So, It could also buff their battle abilities?
It could be the logic explanation why they are so crazy, they are the servant of Khain, god of murder.
And as I said, wich elves can regenerate themselves into the blood of their victims.
They could take that for the healing thing.


I really don’t see how Witch Elves are pretty much the same as Choppas… pretty much the only thing that they have in common within their role is frenzy, and the way I see it they have very different approaches to it. Choppas are all about brute strength and wild hacking. Witch Elves are far more about grace and movement, more slicing. Witch Elves add a lot more subtlety in being far more vulnerable, in having access to poisons, in choosing when to trigger their frenzy (Choppas automatically seem to go into it, Witch Elves first have to drink poisoned blood), etc.


Ok choppas are all about brutal strengh, but in the end so are the witches elfves, they are just doing it with their own body, wich is thiner of course.
What I meant here, is that Choppa, marauders and witch elves as DPS are all about direct offensive characters.
Whereas an assassin is a cunning guy a lot counting on positional attacks, and for the lore, mastering some sort of martial arts.
Those DPS class may have postional attacks, but that's nothing in compare to the witch hunter, I presume.
The whole character is very around that, and you know you have to be becarefull behind you.


An Assassin might be better suited for subtlety, I won’t deny that. But Assassins get most of their subtlety from abilities which are already said to not be in the game (not to mention that they’re a really unoriginal-style class). Assassins are much more about hiding and sneaking and infiltration and stealth (so if such classes ever get added to the game then Assassins are first in line for the dark elves). Witch Elves, however, are far more about getting in your face and ripping you to shreds, which is exactly how the melee dps role is described to be.


What?
But that's just because in other MMOs they only have tried it with stealth!
I have faith in Mythic, they can adapt those sort of vicious classes to their gameplay, without it.
They alwready made it with the witch hunter, and he does not have stealth at all.
They said in a video that with that kind of class, it was easily possible to go behind an enemy in the battlefield.


Again, you fail to explain why. Why is it so important that both factions have the same style classes? Should the high elves have mindless, green-skinned barbarians? Because Order currently has no such classes. Should the high elves get a class which randomly changes shape? Because again it doesn’t have any of those.


To balance gameplay, and order and destruction popularity.
Destruction are the only to get green-skinned barbarians, because such a class cannot be giver to order, it's just the green skin and destruction.
But the equivalent is the dwarf hammerer for exemple.
It does not work always like that.
And don't mistaken, I don't want to have the same on both sides,
would be lame, but at least the classes can belong to a similar category.
They do not need to directly balance the paring race, but order and destruction from a global point of view.
exemple:1 mele support for order, 1 mele support for destruction ....


As it is, with just the classes we know exist already, people who want to play a rogue-type class already have a career to play: on the Order side. While it could be argued that those who want to play a chainmail bikini-type class are currently out of luck, so the game needs that class much more than yet another rogue-type class.


You know roguish classes are quite popular.
So every one that want to play a mele roguish class just has to go on the order side , to only more under populate destruction, great...
And I hate order, simply won't play it.
Would be fair for for destruction to have it too, I find roguish clases looks more...evil.
Warhmmer is a dark world, even the humans are, so they deserve it too, but darkelves more than any one else.


And don’t be mistaken, it’s very likely that dark elves do indeed get a more rogue-type class; just not in the melee dps slot. It’s quite likely that they get this class in the ranged slot either in the form of the Shade or the Beastmaster, both of which fit the type well enough while still being different enough from the stereotype.


You know it's more fair for both to give wiches the support slot, and let the assassin be the DPS, cause they are still both in mele like that.

[Kellaris]

Witch Elves, however, are far more about getting in your face and ripping you to shreds, which is exactly how the melee dps role is described to be.
- Xurré
Look at August meeting carrers video. They describe DPS as fast skirmisher. Positional fighting, mobility, finding the right spot to strike and strike hard. Not getting in Your face.
I aggree that WE may fulfill that role, but it is not designet to such fighting.
I have to say, that neither is hammerer, but dwarfes haven't too much choice.




Beyond that I think you’re way too willing to change adept the lore to suit some arbitrary requirement in making both sides the same. Mythic had the perfect opportunity to balance certain play styles within Chaos already, if they missed it there then the only conclusion one can come to is that it’s not that important to them.
-Xurré

Don't forget, that thy made classes decision in one time.
They have developed basics of 24 classes, and I belive theese 24 will be balanced.
Now we know only portion of whole picture, so some things may seem "inbalanced"

[Merope]

You know it's more fair for both to give wiches the support slot, and let the assassin be the DPS, cause they are still both in mele like that.

Yeah, it'd be incredibly fair to make the last remaining Destruction melee dps class male-only. Especially if it meant that females would get their own female-only healer/support class :D

[The Masked Prince]

They can make assassins with both genders, it's not as hard to do that with them as for witch elves.

[Merope]

They can make assassins with both genders, it's not as hard to do that with them as for witch elves.

My mistake, I guess. I thought that Dark Elf Assassins were male-only.

[Xurré]

So, It could also buff their battle abilities?
It could be the logic explanation why they are so crazy, they are the servant of Khain, god of murder.
And as I said, wich elves can regenerate themselves into the blood of their victims.
They could take that for the healing thing.
Witch Elves don’t regenerate in the cauldron of blood, at least not in the general fantasy interpretation of it meaning to heal, they rejuvenate. They make themselves look younger, extend their lifespan. It’s more like cosmetic surgery or using makeup. It’s like splashing cold water in your face in the morning to wake up.

There is nothing in the lore, that I’m aware of, that says that the Cauldron also heals wounds. It’s in fact quite possible that getting into the Cauldron with a cut will be lethal since, now that the Cauldron has direct access to your blood, it’ll suck the vitality out of it (maybe turning you into some undead by giving you that vitality back at the same time). There’s no lore anywhere for that either, but it’s just as possible as the Cauldron healing wounds.

What’s more, it’s not the blood that does the rejuvenation, it’s the Cauldron. The cauldron takes the vitality out of the blood and gives it to the person bathing in it; blood is just the fuel in the process. Even if that was healing then blood is no more the direct cause of that healing as logs are the direct cause for heat (simply because they’re the fuel to a fire).

And you’re still ignoring the point that healing is the direct opposite of what Khaine stands for, it’s the direct opposite of killing and murder and dealing death. That is why they would make a lousy support class: it goes directly again what they are (much, much, much more than most any other dark elf; heck, with many Sorceresses following Slaanesh instead of Khaine they’d make the best healers even on that front).

Ok choppas are all about brutal strengh, but in the end so are the witches elfves, they are just doing it with their own body, wich is thiner of course.
Uh huh, those fragile, lite and agile maidens are all about brutal strength. :roll:

You don’t need strength to slice, certainly not if your weapon is coated in poison and thus doesn’t have to cut very deep at all. You don’t need to be a bodybuilder to dance, and thus you don’t need an orc’s brute strength to dodge and weave in combat. A Choppa is a stand-there-and-hack-away type character while a Witch Elf is more a lightning-dance-of-death type character.

What I meant here, is that Choppa, marauders and witch elves as DPS are all about direct offensive characters.
Yes, because that’s what the melee dps role is all about.

Whereas an assassin is a cunning guy a lot counting on positional attacks, and for the lore, mastering some sort of martial arts.
This is the first time that I’ve heard anything about them mastering some type of martial arts. In fact, since Assassins and Witch Elves are trained by the same institution I’d say that whatever the Assassin knows in the ways of combat a Witch Elf could also know; the difference lies in that Assassins learn sneaking and infiltration next to that while Witches learn frenzy.

What?
But that's just because in other MMOs they only have tried it with stealth!
How many people will look at on Assassin and think “stealth”? How many people do you think will go and complain, incessantly, wherever they can when they don’t get their stealth? It’s not just that Assassins, in tabletop and everywhere in the lore, are about hiding and sneaking and such, it’s that they look like they’re all about hiding and sneaking and such (contrary to the Witch Hunter, who doesn’t look like that at all).

When I see someone in a black hood and cloak and a mask before their face then I expect that character to be very good at hiding and remaining invisible. If the class doesn’t have those abilities then there’s no point in having the class at all.

I have faith in Mythic, they can adapt those sort of vicious classes to their gameplay, without it.
And I have faith that they can make Witch Elf frenzy work and feel completely different from Choppa frenzy. In fact I’d say that if they can’t then they shouldn’t have given Coppas frenzy to begin with (which, as I understand it, they pretty much invented).

To balance gameplay, and order and destruction popularity.
So now you’re arguing that a rogue-type class is going to make Destruction more popular than a chainmail bikini-type class? :roll:

Destruction are the only to get green-skinned barbarians, because such a class cannot be giver to order, it's just the green skin and destruction.
There’s a lesson to be learned from that: the two sides don’t have to have the exact same things!

The way to achieve population balance is not by giving both sides the same styles (dislodging the lore for the races in the process), but by giving them both different styles that are equally interesting (in general) to a wide variety of people. There are people who do like rogue-type classes and they can play on the Order class. Other’s don’t like rogue-type classes, but perhaps like chainmail bikini-type classes (for example), and they can then play on the Destruction side. And the same can be said for gameplay balance: make them equally vialb,e don’t make them have the same things.

And that’s ignoring the likelihood that dark elves will get their more rogue-style class anyway so you don’t have to fret over that. And as an added bonus it’s a rogue-type class quite different (both in function and appearace) from your typical MMO rogue-type classes in black cloaks sneaking through the shadows.

The game already has a melee dps rogue-type class. You might not like the fact that it’s on the order side, but there’s no reason to do the same thing on the destruction side too.

They do not need to directly balance the paring race, but order and destruction from a global point of view.
exemple:1 mele support for order, 1 mele support for destruction ....
And again you’re coming with the example of melee support. So again I feel compelled to say that if it was important to do so then they should’ve done it with the support class they invented for Chaos (and thus could make work any way they chose) instead of dislocating an existing unit into a role completely unsuitable for it.

And they do need to balance the pairings against each other because that’s how it’ll play for most people. Oh, sure, there’ll be a lot of crossover too, but the primary battles are greenskins versus dwarfs, chaos versus empire, and dark elves versus high elves. And why would any self-respecting dark elf want to do anything other than kill high elves for the majority of their time in battle?

You know roguish classes are quite popular.
So every one that want to play a mele roguish class just has to go on the order side , to only more under populate destruction, great...
And I hate order, simply won't play it.
Would be fair for for destruction to have it too, I find roguish clases looks more...evil.
Warhmmer is a dark world, even the humans are, so they deserve it too, but darkelves more than any one else.
There are many kinds of classes that are popular, and not all sides are going to get all kinds. If you want a ranged-type pet class then you’ll (likely) have to play Destruction. If you want to play a gun-and-bombs type class then you’ll have to play Order. If you want to play a pyromaniac then again you have to play Order. And if you want to play a religious cultist then there’s only Destruction.

You know it's more fair for both to give wiches the support slot, and let the assassin be the DPS, cause they are still both in mele like that.
Witch Elves would be in melee even if you give them the ranged slot. :p

And if you want Assassins so bad then let them be the support role. Makes about as much sense (if not more) than doing so for Witches. They’re both devotees of Khaine after all; Assassins can heal by stabbing people with healing daggers. Would definitely be original.


Look at August meeting carrers video. They describe DPS as fast skirmisher. Positional fighting, mobility, finding the right spot to strike and strike hard. Not getting in Your face.
I aggree that WE may fulfill that role, but it is not designet to such fighting.
I have to say, that neither is hammerer, but dwarfes haven't too much choice.
And neither is Choppa… and neither is Marauder. In fact, the only one that does fit that is the Witchhunter. In fact, with Witch Elves having poison-based abilities and the ability to choose[ when they enter frenzy I’d say they’re a damn-sight more about positional fighting, mobility and finding the right spot to strike and strike hard than most currently announced melee dps classes.


My mistake, I guess. I thought that Dark Elf Assassins were male-only.
They are. He’s just saying that he’s willing to bend another bit of lore to near breaking point to get the class in. Though I admit that the link to them being male-only is a lot weaker than Witch Elves being female-only.


- Xurré

[The Masked Prince]

My mistake, I guess. I thought that Dark Elf Assassins were male-only.
It's not the first time Mythic prooves us lore's restrictions are not a problem.
A female assassin is not as chocking as a male in bikini...


Witch Elves don’t regenerate in the cauldron of blood, at least not in the general fantasy interpretation of it meaning to heal, they rejuvenate. They make themselves look younger, extend their lifespan. It’s more like cosmetic surgery or using makeup. It’s like splashing cold water in your face in the morning to wake up.


Yes I know that, but I didn't know the appropriate word.
Still, it's not that hard to also enables witch elves to heal with blood...


This is the first time that I’ve heard anything about them mastering some type of martial arts. In fact, since Assassins and Witch Elves are trained by the same institution I’d say that whatever the Assassin knows in the ways of combat a Witch Elf could also know; the difference lies in that Assassins learn sneaking and infiltration next to that while Witches learn frenzy.

MMM i don't really see their fighting style being the same...
Skavens' assassins know martial arts since they went to nippon.
Dark elves assassins are even better, I guess they have to know martial arts to compete.
That's how I see them.


How many people will look at on Assassin and think “stealth”? How many people do you think will go and complain, incessantly, wherever they can when they don’t get their stealth? It’s not just that Assassins, in tabletop and everywhere in the lore, are about hiding and sneaking and such, it’s that they look like they’re all about hiding and sneaking and such (contrary to the Witch Hunter, who doesn’t look like that at all).

When I see someone in a black hood and cloak and a mask before their face then I expect that character to be very good at hiding and remaining invisible. If the class doesn’t have those abilities then there’s no point in having the class at all.

But you can be discreet and sneaking in WAR.
A guy from Mythic said it's not that hard to come by surprise behind an enemy during the game or a battle.


So now you’re arguing that a rogue-type class is going to make Destruction more popular than a chainmail bikini-type class? :roll:

That's not what I'm saying.
I just think assassin and witch elves will be more popular than witch elves only.
I know you think assassin can have the range slot, but I still hope not.
They could just put shades for that.


And if you want Assassins so bad then let them be the support role. Makes about as much sense (if not more) than doing so for Witches. They’re both devotees of Khaine after all; Assassins can heal by stabbing people with healing daggers. Would definitely be original.

:confused: assassins as a support class, it's just not going to happen.
Doesn't make any sense at all, and if you really don't see the link with witch elves and support, even if they fit better in mele dsp(according to you) thisis not being in good faith (don't mean to offense you at all).

[Xurré]

It's not the first time Mythic prooves us lore's restrictions are not a problem.
A female assassin is not as chocking as a male in bikini...
I don’t think they’ve allowed anything yet where the lore specifically states that it doesn’t exist.

And I don’t think that simply because the lore is bendable is a reason to do things.

Yes I know that, but I didn't know the appropriate word.
Still, it's not that hard to also enables witch elves to heal with blood...
It’s also not that hard to enable assassins to heal with healing daggers, which would make more sense to boot.

MMM i don't really see their fighting style being the same...
Skavens' assassins know martial arts since they went to nippon.
Dark elves assassins are even better, I guess they have to know martial arts to compete.
That's how I see them.
That might be how you see them, but I don’t know of any reference to Assassins knowing martial arts. They’re simply very good with a dagger. That’s it.

But you can be discreet and sneaking in WAR.
A guy from Mythic said it's not that hard to come by surprise behind an enemy during the game or a battle.
Surprising someone is quite different from sneaking. Witchhunters might benefit from surprise (nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition), but they’re still far from a sneaking class. Assassins are a sneaking class, whether they have a stealth ability or not. Their shtick is hiding in the shadows and killing quickly and quiety, they’re all about being unseen. And not giving them the ability to be unseen would diminish what an Assassin is.

That's not what I'm saying.
I just think assassin and witch elves will be more popular than witch elves only.
If Assassins are in then they’d take the place of something else… many of which are popular.

And I’d say that the rogue-type classes in other games are so popular because they’re the ones who get stealth. Assassins wouldn’t get stealth and thus are immediately less attractive to a large number of people who like these types of classes (I’m fairly sure). In fact I’d say that a large number of people who would still play the class would do so with a lot of regret that they don’t get stealth. And that’s even ignoring that most people wouldn’t be aware that they wouldn’t get stealth until it is too late, leading to a lot of anger and complaining.

I know you think assassin can have the range slot, but I still hope not.
They could just put shades for that.
Fine, so we use Shades instead of Assassins. All problems solved. :p

And a ranged assassin is not as chocking as a healing Witch Elf.

:confused: assassins as a support class, it's just not going to happen.
Doesn't make any sense at all, and if you really don't see the link with witch elves and support, even if they fit better in mele dsp(according to you) thisis not being in good faith (don't mean to offense you at all).
You can see how Assassins don’t make any sense as a support class… but you still think that Witch Elves do? You do know that they’re both devotees of Khaine, right? If you can give Witch Elves divine magic to heal then you can give Assassins divine magic to heal… it makes just as much sense. The only difference is that Assassins tend to still have their full faculties in battle and thus would be more suitable to a healing role.

Because, again, if a Witch is frenzied on blood lust, gleefully killing the enemy in front of her it makes no sense for her to break off the combat and reposition herself just to help give another character some healing.

If you really don’t see that then “this is not being in good faith” right back at ya. :p


- Xurré

[Kellaris]

And neither is Choppa… and neither is Marauder. In fact, the only one that does fit that is the Witchhunter. In fact, with Witch Elves having poison-based abilities and the ability to choose[ when they enter frenzy I’d say they’re a damn-sight more about positional fighting, mobility and finding the right spot to strike and strike hard than most currently announced melee dps classes.
- Xurré
This is all about You interpretation of not frenzied Witches ;)
All differences between choppa frenzy and Witch frenzy IMHO are the same bending the lore as female assasin.

[The Masked Prince]

You can see how Assassins don’t make any sense as a support class… but you still think that Witch Elves do? You do know that they’re both devotees of Khaine, right? If you can give Witch Elves divine magic to heal then you can give Assassins divine magic to heal… it makes just as much sense. The only difference is that Assassins tend to still have their full faculties in battle and thus would be more suitable to a healing role.

Because, again, if a Witch is frenzied on blood lust, gleefully killing the enemy in front of her it makes no sense for her to break off the combat and reposition herself just to help give another character some healing.

If you really don’t see that then “this is not being in good faith” right back at ya. :p

- Xurré

They are both devotes of Khaine but we do not see assassins as devote to him as the witch elves are, making ceremony with blood, cauldron and buff, rejuvenate with blood...

Well everything has been alwready said,
I don't think it will go further with those arguments.

[Black Razor]

:confused: assassins as a support class, it's just not going to happen.
Doesn't make any sense at all, and if you really don't see the link with witch elves and support, even if they fit better in melee dps(according to you) this is not being in good faith (don't mean to offense you at all).

See heres my fundamental problem with the concept .. yes .. you could widget some system thats off lore for Witch Elves to somehow heal with blood splatter (oh come on ..that sounds silly just saying it..), but WHY .. when the Dark Elves have a healing mechanic in place in the Sorceress? I know its not a popular subject cause everyone is 'Dark Magic is all about destruction!' .. which is wrong, its about the nether world and souls, but I digress .. the Sorceress in table top has access to life draining spells .. spells which take wounds (health) from one target and transfer them to the caster. Its HEALING .. conventional .. no .. but its healing, and could easily be extended to healing your party as well. Its in fact the only healing thats in any way represented in the Dark Elf army. I cant understand why everyone is so violently against the idea of the Sorceress playing a support role .. especially since by all accounts other support classes still deal good damage and so its not violating the Sorceress nuke role .. but have no problem with fudging witch elves into playing battlefield nurse? If the Sorceress is placed in the Support role it leaves a opening for Shades in the ranged DPS role which brings into view the repeater crossbow ..something very iconic of the dark elves and unique to there army. To place the Sorceress there and the Witch Elves in support would make anyone else wielding the weapon seem out of place .. and to lose that element of lore seems unnecessary to me when it can be easily maintained and keep the Dark Elf classes on lore.

[Bulwyf]

See heres my fundamental problem with the concept .. yes .. you could widget some system thats off lore for Witch Elves to somehow heal with blood splatter (oh come on ..that sounds silly just saying it..), but WHY .. when the Dark Elves have a healing mechanic in place in the Sorceress? I know its not a popular subject cause everyone is 'Dark Magic is all about destruction!' .. which is wrong, its about the nether world and souls, but I digress .. the Sorceress in table top has access to life draining spells .. spells which take wounds (health) from one target and transfer them to the caster. Its HEALING .. conventional .. no .. but its healing, and could easily be extended to healing your party as well. Its in fact the only healing thats in any way represented in the Dark Elf army. I cant understand why everyone is so violently against the idea of the Sorceress playing a support role .. especially since by all accounts other support classes still deal good damage and so its not violating the Sorceress nuke role .. but have no problem with fudging witch elves into playing battlefield nurse? If the Sorceress is placed in the Support role it leaves a opening for Shades in the ranged DPS role which brings into view the repeater crossbow ..something very iconic of the dark elves and unique to there army. To place the Sorceress there and the Witch Elves in support would make anyone else wielding the weapon seem out of place .. and to lose that element of lore seems unnecessary to me when it can be easily maintained and keep the Dark Elf classes on lore.

I have always though the Sorceress was the best option for the healing class and nothing in all the months since then has changed that opinion. They have "healing" magic and they can be the nuking or lifetapping role to go witih a healer so they are not just "healbots".

[roadkizzle]

My main problem with sorceresses being the healers, is that makes the ENTIRE destruction healing come from cloth wearing casters. While the ENTIRE order healing side comes from classes with a combination of ranges, where the majority of them are at LEAST in medium armor. This is extremely offbalance. Also, while mythic doesn't balance everything directly... For instance, destruction has a pet class in the Squig Herder, so High Elves are also getting a pet class. I'd say that the choppa, and hammerer are more parallels, where they have the same build up mechanic and spend their bar on abilities, while the Witch Hunter and Marauder both are extremely different, so I'm going to guess that the Dark Elves have a melee DPS class acting similar to the Witchhunter (Through debuffs, and sorta chains to unlock big finisher moves), while the high elf one will probably be more similar to the marauder where as fighting, they progress through a series of stages, each one with it's own abilities (Probably swordmasters). Destruction does not have a melee healer opposite the warrior priest, the Runepriest and the Zealot have similar gameplay, where they do most of their buffs/debuffs and healing through casting on ground targets, as opposed to single targets. I believe that High Elf healers will be nuker/healers to balance out the shaman, while the Dark Elf's will be a melee healer, to balance out the warrior priest.

In this, we see balance not in aesthetics, for instance green skinned barbarians, but in the basic way that each classes gameplay mechanic enables them to perform their function.

Edit: That's why I am guessing that the Dark Elf classes will be
Support: Witch Elf
Melee DPS: Corsair, Executioner, Assassin would all work equally well
Ranged DPS: Sorceress
Tank: No clue, but I hope not black guard, I think they are extremely boring.

[Bulwyf]

My main problem with sorceresses being the healers, is that makes the ENTIRE destruction healing come from cloth wearing casters. While the ENTIRE order healing side comes from classes with a combination of ranges, where the majority of them are at LEAST in medium armor. This is extremely offbalance. Also, while mythic doesn't balance everything directly... For instance, destruction has a pet class in the Squig Herder, so High Elves are also getting a pet class. I'd say that the choppa, and hammerer are more parallels, where they have the same build up mechanic and spend their bar on abilities, while the Witch Hunter and Marauder both are extremely different, so I'm going to guess that the Dark Elves have a melee DPS class acting similar to the Witchhunter (Through debuffs, and sorta chains to unlock big finisher moves), while the high elf one will probably be more similar to the marauder where as fighting, they progress through a series of stages, each one with it's own abilities (Probably swordmasters). Destruction does not have a melee healer opposite the warrior priest, the Runepriest and the Zealot have similar gameplay, where they do most of their buffs/debuffs and healing through casting on ground targets, as opposed to single targets. I believe that High Elf healers will be nuker/healers to balance out the shaman, while the Dark Elf's will be a melee healer, to balance out the warrior priest.

In this, we see balance not in aesthetics, for instance green skinned barbarians, but in the basic way that each classes gameplay mechanic enables them to perform their function.

Edit: That's why I am guessing that the Dark Elf classes will be
Support: Witch Elf
Melee DPS: Corsair, Executioner, Assassin would all work equally well
Ranged DPS: Sorceress
Tank: No clue, but I hope not black guard, I think they are extremely boring.


I just can not fathom seeing someone say "HEAL ME WITCH ELF!" in a group setting. It just boggles my mind to see drugged out women who only want to cut people have to literally stop and toss out heals. Whereas the Sorceress can stay in the back nuking/lifetapping and throwing in heals where needed.

[Selendor]

That's why I am guessing that the Dark Elf classes will be
Support: Witch Elf
Melee DPS: Corsair, Executioner, Assassin would all work equally well
Ranged DPS: Sorceress
Tank: No clue, but I hope not black guard, I think they are extremely boring.

I agree with Roadkizzle's post. I'm really thinking they'll do a melee healer for the Dark Elves...probably a Witch Elf derivative with an emphasis on blood magic.


The tank I'm extremely curious about. It's not going to be a Cold One Knight, if the Q&As are any indication. I'm not sure whether they'll do Black Guard, seeing as they're an 0-1 Rare unit choice, not to mention the fact that a big heavily armored Dark Elf has the potential to look a bit Chosen-y.

My guess would be something that deviates from the typical sword/shield combo...maybe a dodge/parry based fighter.

[The Masked Prince]

I'm thinking of a dodge/paring fighter tooas Tank.
We alwready have chosen and black orcs

[Kellaris]

Also agree wit Roadkizzle.
And talking about tank, I'm not a fan of BlackGuard. But halbard wielding tank would be very unique an this is IMHO a big advantage.
If we are not going to have cavalary, the only other option is Executioner.
And halbard style can be nice. Mayby something about pushing opponents away and stronger attacks at some distance. Or grabbing opponent wit halbard and pushing away from friendly sorcerer.

Another argument for Witches beeing support class.
1. Good (self) healing can balance lack of armour.
2. Poison attacks are essentialy DOT's. And DOTS belong to support rather than DPS.

The only bad thing about this is lack of Shades:(.

[roadkizzle]

Ya, my true guesses, is that Executioner will be tank, with a parry/dodge based tanking, and that Corsair, focused on dirty fighting, and debuffs will be the Melee DPS.

Also, you don't necessarily have to stop fighting to heal someone. If you can have a primary target, and then have a secondary target on an ally, then you can keep dealing damage to your primary target, to feed magic or lifesteals, and then it will funnel health into your secondary target. This way, you won't feel like you're having to stop killing what you do, and go heal an ally. It does it both at the same time. From some of the runepriest videos, it does seem that they have a similar primary/secondary targetting system. I don't think that warrior priests are going to have to take much time out of their fighting to cast their heals. Most of their healing is probably going to come from aura's, procs, and instant cast heals... Again, I hope that you can have your main enemy targetted and fighting, while using something like a secondary target as an ally.


Edit: I agree, the only problem my idea of classes is that this would make it to where there are no classes which use the really cool repeater crossbows. Because there would be no shades, but I think that if they do have shades, they would be too similar to the shadow warriors, so having no shades could be better for the shadow warriors uniqueness.

[Kellaris]

Edit: I agree, the only problem my idea of classes is that this would make it to where there are no classes which use the really cool repeater crossbows. Because there would be no shades, but I think that if they do have shades, they would be too similar to the shadow warriors, so having no shades could be better for the shadow warriors uniqueness.

If DPS will be Corsair, he/she may use RXB.
Choppa has ranged attack beeing DPS.
There is no probrem for Corsair to take RXB from his back, release a volley of bolts to escaping opponent and go on to backstab another

[Xurré]

I just can not fathom seeing someone say "HEAL ME WITCH ELF!" in a group setting. It just boggles my mind to see drugged out women who only want to cut people have to literally stop and toss out heals. Whereas the Sorceress can stay in the back nuking/lifetapping and throwing in heals where needed.
One thing we agree on at least. <nods>


2. Poison attacks are essentialy DOT's. And DOTS belong to support rather than DPS.
Since when are DOTs support?

"DOT" stands for "Damage over Time". And DPS stands for...? I'll give you a hint, the first letter means the exact same thing in both cases! (And the last one at least falls in the same category).


- Xurré

[Noli me Tangere]

"DOT" stands for "Damage over Time". And DPS stands for...? I'll give you a hint, the first letter means the exact same thing in both cases! (And the last one at least falls in the same category).


- Xurré


Xurré is actually right, I've seen many damage centric, and even melee damage centric, classes that made use of Damage over Time (DoT) effects such as poison, bleeding, and other special abilities. Some may remember the Blade Master's tri-wield ability that essentially acted like a DoT effect, with the visual appearance of a glowing green blade, that did a steady amount of damage, and, like most DoTs couldn't miss.. it acted very much like a magic effect on the enemy. Steady damage over time.

And these are just a few examples. Melee damage classes have had DoT abilities through various means as long as I've played MMOs.

[Black Razor]

Also agree wit Roadkizzle.
And talking about tank, I'm not a fan of Black Guard. But halberd wielding tank would be very unique an this is IMHO a big advantage.
If we are not going to have cavalry, the only other option is Executioner.
And halberd style can be nice. Maybe something about pushing opponents away and stronger attacks at some distance. Or grabbing opponent wit halberd and pushing away from friendly sorcerer.

Another argument for Witches being support class.
1. Good (self) healing can balance lack of armour.
2. Poison attacks are essentially DOT's. And DOTS belong to support rather than DPS.

The only bad thing about this is lack of Shades:(.

Black Guard are granted lacking in any real lore other then the descriptive stuff from the Dark Elf book which kinda leaves them a little weak as a choice from that angle. They do however have some really cool abilities that could make them a viable choice for tank .. and I agree the Halberd fighting would make them quite distinctive. Perhaps being a pole arm they would have a bonus against cavalry ..though that would seem unlikely as its the Empire on the Order side that has the mounts ya? Executioner might be okay as the tank .. they only wear light armor but some kind of sword defense oriented style could be dreamed up for them, but I really don't think they are the best option. It will be weird not to have Cold One Knights honestly .. they kinda define the role really for the Dark Elves.

1: Thats why priest classes are traditionally some of the worst soloists in MMOs? Healing is not a substitution for armor, in any amount. Skills like evasion and parry are (questionably), and those are the domain traditionally of a DPS class such as rogues. Truthfully the survivability of a light armor melee fighter like a Witch Elf is measured by the amount of DPS they can issue in relation to there opponent... in other words ..they live by the sword. Witches in tabletop don't have a regeneration ability .. or anything similar .. and though the mechanics of this game are very different when it comes to damage taking there are units in table top that heal and even regenerate .. Witches arn't one. This is actually a greater argument for the Sorceress and there life taps which are represented and in at least one case unique to the Dark Elves.

2: In what game? Poisons including DOT style are a mainstay of rogue style DPS classes which I think the Witch elves are very representative of. By this line of logic any assassin class in Warhammer including the Skaven assassin would also be relegated to support class. Life drains and magic DOTs are the primary offensive of support classes (usually with light nukes) .. which interestingly fall quite firmly in the domain of Dark Magic and the Sorceress.

Not having Shades would be a weak choice .. again its excluding something that is very unique to the Dark Elves .. the repeater crossbow which they specialize in, and though yes they could find a way to weasel it into the skills of another class it would be a poor choice in my opinion to do so.

[Xurré]

Executioner might be okay as the tank .. they only wear light armor...
Heavy Armor. Official Errata changed it.


- Xurré

[Kellaris]

Since when are DOTs support?

"DOT" stands for "Damage over Time". And DPS stands for...? I'll give you a hint, the first letter means the exact same thing in both cases! (And the last one at least falls in the same category).
- Xurré

Damage Per Second. Really do not know why people use that when they mean Damage Dealer. But that's not a point.
Point is, that Damage Dealers in WAR are suppose to be mobile an hard hitting.
DoT is slow damage.
So far we know about Runepriest DoTs and Zealot DoTs.
No choppa or hammerrer DoTs
So, my conclusion is: In WAR, support classes use DoTs

Edit: I just checked. Shaman and Sigmar Priest also use DoTs


1: Thats why priest classes are traditionally some of the worst soloists in MMOs?

2: In what game? Poisons including DOT style are a mainstay of rogue style DPS classes

1. Traditionally, priest classes can "heal, heal, heal............". According to prerelease info we have, this is not true in WAR.
2. In WAR of course ;)

[Xurré]

Damage Per Second. Really do not know why people use that when they mean Damage Dealer. But that's not a point.
That’s because they’re about increasing the amount of damage you do per second or something along those lines.

Point is, that Damage Dealers in WAR are suppose to be mobile an hard hitting.
DoT is slow damage.
So far we know about Runepriest DoTs and Zealot DoTs.
No choppa or hammerrer DoTs
So, my conclusion is: In WAR, support classes use DoTs

Edit: I just checked. Shaman and Sigmar Priest also use DoTs
Great, that means that a melee damage dealer using DoTs would be uniquely different from all the other melee damage dealers in that it includes DoTs.

Simply because there are support classes in WAR that use DoTs doesn’t mean that it’s a support-only thing.

Look at it like this. There generally are two kinds of healing: heals that heal in one big chunk and heals that heal over time. But simply because a healer has one or the other doesn’t make it less of a healer (just a different kind). Similarly DoTs are just another way to deal damage, which would fit perfectly in the arsenal of a damage dealer.


- Xurré

[Kellaris]

Great, that means that a melee damage dealer using DoTs would be uniquely different from all the other melee damage dealers in that it includes DoTs.

Simply because there are support classes in WAR that use DoTs doesn’t mean that it’s a support-only thing.
- Xurré
You are not too precise in this comment. ;)
The fact is, that all supporters use DoTs so far. Keyword: ALL.
And no Damage Dealer use it.
This gives us a picture, how Mythic sees theese classes.
Of course it may happen, that Elves will be unique in this matter.
But personally I do not think so.
Damage Dealer Archetype (in WAR) is about big and fast damage.
Supporters in other MMO do not deal any reasonable damage, so in WAR they use DoTs.
DD do not need them, becouse they have fast and strong normal attacks.

[Heno]

I'd be very suprised if only the healer archetypes get DoT's.

Especially since we already know the Bright Wizard has a few.

[Estebar]

I just can not fathom seeing someone say "HEAL ME WITCH ELF!" in a group setting. It just boggles my mind to see drugged out women who only want to cut people have to literally stop and toss out heals. Whereas the Sorceress can stay in the back nuking/lifetapping and throwing in heals where needed. The Witch Elf Hag could have aura-based buffs and heals, which would encourage allies to get stuck in killing enemies right beside her and benefit from it, while still running the risk of dying by re-entering battle which is essentially the religious ethos of the Witch Elves anyway: dealing painful death to others to prevent your own from happening.

[Noli me Tangere]

Originally Posted by Bulwyf http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/images/WHA/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?p=429684#post429684)
I just can not fathom seeing someone say "HEAL ME WITCH ELF!" in a group setting. It just boggles my mind to see drugged out women who only want to cut people have to literally stop and toss out heals. Whereas the Sorceress can stay in the back nuking/lifetapping and throwing in heals where needed.
The Witch Elf Hag could have aura-based buffs and heals, which would encourage allies to get stuck in killing enemies right beside her and benefit from it, while still running the risk of dying by re-entering battle which is essentially the religious ethos of the Witch Elves anyway: dealing painful death to others to prevent your own from happening.

I'm with Bulywf on this one, the very idea of a Witch Elf healing their allies in combat, through any means, is just mind boggling.

[Thrakkesh]

Dark Elf Warrior: My arm has been chopped off! Please, Fair bride of Khaine, HEAL ME!

Witch Elf: ::Stabs in face::

Dark Elf: OH GOD MY FACE! OH GOD, THE POISON IS MAKING ME BLIND, WHY DID YOU DO THAT!?

Witch Elf: Does your arm hurt anymore?

Dark Elf: No..! God, I can't feel my face!

Witch Elf: Exactly. ::Stabs again::

[Bulwyf]

Yeah, mercy and kindness even in helping out fellow DE to kil heretics to Khaine just doesn't jive with my image of Witch Elves. If they don't care about their own safety in combat by wearing any real armor then why would they care about anyone else's pain?