Female only DE classes confirmed. [Archive]

Xurré

08-08-2007, 12:51 PM

Hmmm, either he's talking about Sorceress (sorry for spelling) or Witch Elfs because to my knowledge those are the only female only careers/classes/types in WH lore (correct me if im wrong).
On the Dark Elf side, yes. And since Mythic already has noted to have to OK to include male Sorcerers it would seem that the post confirms Witch Elves.

The trouble is the word "or" there though. For instance, the following statement is true:

Warhammer has careers that can kill every other with a single hit of a lightsaber or use a sword to do it in many hits.

Of course the game doesn't include lightsabers (one would hope) and if they did they wouldn't be that ridiculously strong. But it certainly has careers (plural) that use swords to kill. (Ok, so maybe it was a lame example :p ).

So as long as dark elves have at least two careers that are "played in a certain way" the statement is true.

Of course, one could argue that there is no reason to mention the first if there isn't at least one career for which it is true (at least one career that "must be female only"), but again it could be argued that this still doesn't prove anything.

Then again, we've had so many little snippets that all seem to hint at Witch Elves but don't actually prove it that either somebody is playing some elaborate miserable joke trying to misguide us or they actually are in the game. (Though in the second case there's a little bit of purposely misguiding going on too... but there mostly from fans and not from Mythic).

I hope that makes sense.

- Xurré

Xurré

08-08-2007, 12:52 PM

Despite my disdain for the male choice on the Marauders, and Chose, the stickler in me has to point out that two out of four is not most, it's half. o_o
Actually, there are four careers that are male and two that are female. I'd say that makes most. :p

- Xurré

Grimfell Gromgear

08-08-2007, 12:55 PM

When the newsletter is released. On that very single day... something wonderous will happen.

Suddenly, there will be grafiti on the Mythic website. Mispelled graphiti.

And it will cover over and mock many things...

But one thing it will also do... is cover over the Dark Elf army...

and replace it with...

SKAVEN!

Bum bum bum!

No seriously, who knows. Mythics cool and all but they've been devilish on flipping things around, so I don't even trust someone working on the game who alludes to Witch Elves. Heck, I won't trust the careers till release date.

Noli me Tangere

08-08-2007, 12:57 PM

Actually, there are four careers that are male and two that are female. I'd say that makes most. :p

- Xurré

I had Chaos, specifically, on the brain, for some reason. o_O; I read "destruction" and think, Chaos. <_<
Chaos. I got it bad. :D

Messk

08-08-2007, 01:09 PM

The male sorcerer thing was a long time ago, way before they announced gender specific classes. Things change, especially at this point in making the game. Personally, I think they will go with the lore and make female sorceress and witch elves.

I also remember someone form Mythic saying (in the WAAAGH! Careers video) that they are equal opportunity offenders, which could mean 2 DE female only classes....

As for the scans, the interviewer posted in that thread and she didn't seem to mind... If it's against this site rules to put a link to a forum that contains those scans, feel free to remove the link.

Axxar

08-08-2007, 01:13 PM

Well it's true that they've said they got the OK to do male sorcerers. That doesn't necessarily mean they'll do it, simply that they have the option.

Xurré

08-08-2007, 01:35 PM

I had Chaos, specifically, on the brain, for some reason. o_O; I read "destruction" and think, Chaos. <_<
Chaos. I got it bad. :D

Actually, I made the same mistake. Was just saying that if there are four classes you can play as a male character and two as a female then that makes the majority of classes male.

Anyway...

I also remember someone form Mythic saying (in the WAAAGH! Careers video) that they are equal opportunity offenders, which could mean 2 DE female only classes....
Yes, I saw that too. Another tidbit.

- Xurré

Gaazruk

08-08-2007, 01:50 PM

I think Witch Elfs will definatly be in, and Sorcerer(ess) could go either way not sure I would want to play a male sorcerer though....
Example:

Day 1 in Warhammer...
*creates a male sorcerer and spawns into the starting zone...*

Guards: ''ITS A MALE SORCERER KILL HIM AND CAMP HIS CORPSE!!''
*5000000 swords fall upon you*

Day 503240234234 in Warhammer...

*respawns*
*5000000 swords fall upon you*
''damnit I just want to play the game :(''

End of Example...

roadkizzle

08-08-2007, 02:00 PM

Alright lets get the whole Male Sorcerer stuff cleared up... The no male sorceress rule was only created for the 6th edition tabletop game rules...

Mythic has continually stated that WAR is like Batman. They draw the lore of WAR from ALL aspects of warhammer. Even so, Mythic has also stated a few times that they are mostly drawing their fluff from 4th edition tabletop rules. They say this was because GW provided a lot more fluff at that time, so it makes it easier for Mythic to work through.

Granted, most of that information came from last summer, so it may have been lost in the times.

Xurré

08-08-2007, 02:02 PM

Mythic has continually stated that WAR is like Batman. They draw the lore of WAR from ALL aspects of warhammer. Even so, Mythic has also stated a few times that they are mostly drawing their fluff from 4th edition tabletop rules. They say this was because GW provided a lot more fluff at that time, so it makes it easier for Mythic to work through.
Ok, I have to ask... how do you know which edition is which? As I understand it 6th is the latest one. But I've got an older version too (Copyright 1995) and I have no idea what edition it is.

- Xurré

Gaazruk

08-08-2007, 02:07 PM

Mythic has continually stated that WAR is like Batman.

Erm yeah... about that... can I get a link or something?...

dutch_gamer

08-08-2007, 02:18 PM

They had already let it slip a couple months ago that there would be male sorcerers. So I suppose this is more of a confirmation of witch elves.

Paul Barnett let this slip many, many months ago. But a lot of things can have changed between then and now (and lots of things have changed in the game already). In the light of having gender restricted careers for Chaos, it can be the case that they might not have a male sorcerer after all.

Tae

08-08-2007, 02:18 PM

Ok, I have to ask... how do you know which edition is which? As I understand it 6th is the latest one. But I've got an older version too (Copyright 1995) and I have no idea what edition it is.

- Xurré

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8c/4th_wfb_22.jpg

That's the 4th Ed boxed set, which is the one I bought. So 1995 sounds about right really as the 5th Ed didn't come out for a while after that, as the 5th Ed is when I stopped playing properly, which wasn't until much later.

Drunkenmaster

08-08-2007, 02:37 PM

Nice quote Tae ;)

This is another hint and I'm hoping for the best, my plan was to play the dark elf healer but I'm scrapping those plans if witch elves turn out to be in.

Xurré

08-08-2007, 03:08 PM

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8c/4th_wfb_22.jpg

That's the 4th Ed boxed set, which is the one I bought. So 1995 sounds about right really as the 5th Ed didn't come out for a while after that, as the 5th Ed is when I stopped playing properly, which wasn't until much later.
Well, that certainly look very, very familiar.

Thanks. :)

- Xurré

Selandri

08-08-2007, 03:23 PM

-Does a little dance- Hotness. Hopefulness. Yummyness.

I'll believe it when I see it but things look up.

Bulwyf

08-08-2007, 05:10 PM

Black Razor

08-08-2007, 05:27 PM

Hmmm, either he's talking about Sorceress (sorry for spelling) or Witch Elfs because to my knowledge those are the only female only careers/classes/types in WH lore (correct me if im wrong).

For Dark Elves thats correct .. but there are also the Maiden Guard for the High Elves.

Honestly I am a bit intrigued if they do decide to go back to Sorceress only and forgo Sorcerers. I honestly never had a problem with them because they exist in the lore, and yes though are outcasts, they are frequently employed by houses that don't want to involve the sorceress convents for one reason or another. It certainly couldn't of been hard to devise a back ally sorcerer cabal for male characters to be a part of and go to for training. Not sure why they would choose to reverse the design decision unless its just to force a sudo balance with the chaos class restrictions which is kinda sad really. But this does seem to make Witch Elves a lock .. and as such ... /happydance

Selandri

08-08-2007, 05:43 PM

It's all the goats we sacrificed, Razor :)

I had a brief mind blank there and had to re-read the quote, it definitely states Dark Elves, not just elves. Plus I'd be surprised to see Maiden Guard, insanely happy because they have huge potential, but they are one of the least fluffed out units so, surprised.

I don't want to get my hopes up till it's announced though. But is looking good.

Bul, while I do agree gender restrictions are a pain, I think it'd only be fair in the current circumstances. A lot of people say "Well, we don't care, we play to play the game." with the male only classes. It will be interesting to see their take on female only.

Gaazruk

08-08-2007, 05:53 PM

Obviously I hope this is not correct. Mythic already made a huge blunder by basically saying women aren't "tough" enough to cut it as Chaos melee fighters which is of course insane.

Ok im gonna put this as lightly as possible but..... your statement is total . Mythic stated the artwork didnt make it seem to fit with the way they wanted the game to look, they in now way stated woman arent tough and made no sexist statements at all. Your making a HUGE assumption and its absolutely rubbish to say that Mythic is saying woman arent tough enough, you lad are an ignorant .

Bulwyf

08-08-2007, 06:05 PM

Ok im gonna put this as lightly as possible but..... your statement is total . Mythic stated the artwork didnt make it seem to fit with the way they wanted the game to look, they in now way stated woman arent tough and made no sexist statements at all. Your making a HUGE assumption and its absolutely rubbish to say that Mythic is saying woman arent tough enough, you lad are an ignorant .

Er...I think calling someone an "ignorant " is a flame.

You invalidate any kind of opinion you have by resorting to childish insults.

And for the record saying there's no "artwork" to suppose female Chaos fighters is a crock when there's a plethora of such artwork all over the net on various fansites that shows how it can be done. They can not use "no artwork" as a valid excuse.

Selandri

08-08-2007, 06:08 PM

Also I believe someone posted pictures from Liber Chaotica of feminine Chaos Warriors.

I would but I lack a scanner :(

Gaazruk

08-08-2007, 06:11 PM

And for the record saying there's no "artwork" to suppose female Chaos fighters is a crock when there's a plethora of such artwork all over the net on various fansites that shows how it can be done. They can not use "no artwork" as a valid excuse.
Ive seen many of the artworks and I think it doesnt look at ALL as good as any of the other artwork in the game, Mythic is trying to make a great game and if the artists decide they cant make it look as good as the rest of the game and choose not to put it in... and GAMESWORKSHOP OKAYS IT... then its a fine decision. If by calling mythic sexist you think it will change anything at all, your wrong. Go try and draw a female chosen in the Tier 4 Chosen armor that looks as amazing the male chosen in tier 4 armor then okay, I will admit im wrong and I will apologise but until you show me that. Im sorry to say, Mythic made the right choice and there is nothing wrong with their decision. The few female chosen fan art out there atm doesnt look even remotely good.

LookinGreen

08-08-2007, 06:11 PM

And for the record saying there's no "artwork" to suppose female Chaos fighters is a crock when there's a plethora of such artwork all over the net on various fansites that shows how it can be done. They can not use "no artwork" as a valid excuse.

I don't want to turn this into another chaos thread but I from the class video it sounded more like they couldn't do the female marauders justice while keeping T rating.

I wouldn't mind seeing witch elves though because they look like an interesting classs I don't really care that they are only females.

Hatemonger

08-08-2007, 06:28 PM

Ive seen many of the artworks and I think it doesnt look at ALL as good as any of the other artwork in the game

What? Are you serious? Casual drawings by forum members aren't as good as those by professional artists getting paid for their work? :shock:

No seriously, I'm in a state of utter shock.

Mythic is trying to make a great game and if the artists decide they cant make it look as good as the rest of the game and choose not to put it in... and GAMESWORKSHOP OKAYS IT... then its a fine decision.If you personally like the decision. If you don't, then it isn't. Don't see why it should be a 'fine decision' to everyone just because a company okay's it

If by calling mythic sexist you think it will change anything at all, your wrong. I'll agree the poster was out of line here, but I'll be honest with you. I've been labeled a feminist just for disagreeing with the idea, despite clearly being a male and having absolutely no desire to play a female character. Ever.

Go try and draw a female chosen in the Tier 4 Chosen armor that looks as amazing the male chosen in tier 4 armor then okay, I will admit im wrong and I will apologise but until you show me that.Demand is completely and utterly ridiculous. I'm not responsible for satisfying your lack of creative imagination. If Mythic says they can't do it, then I will accept that answer, but I'm not going to believe that it's impossible because there's nothing overly complicated about a woman in armor IMO.

Im sorry to say, Mythic made the right choice and there is nothing wrong with their decision.lol

I'm glad your opinion suddenly constitutes as fact. It really clears up everything.

Bulwyf

08-08-2007, 06:31 PM

Ive seen many of the artworks and I think it doesnt look at ALL as good as any of the other artwork in the game, Mythic is trying to make a great game and if the artists decide they cant make it look as good as the rest of the game and choose not to put it in... and GAMESWORKSHOP OKAYS IT... then its a fine decision. If by calling mythic sexist you think it will change anything at all, your wrong. Go try and draw a female chosen in the Tier 4 Chosen armor that looks as amazing the male chosen in tier 4 armor then okay, I will admit im wrong and I will apologise but until you show me that. Im sorry to say, Mythic made the right choice and there is nothing wrong with their decision. The few female chosen fan art out there atm doesnt look even remotely good.

So because you personally do not like the look of some fan art that is enough justification to discriminate against female gamers or some male gamers? No offense but I just don't think its enough of a justification to say "we don't think we can draw it well enough despite other good looking fan art out there so hey, screw the gamers, who wants female melee fighters anyways for Chaos?"

If they don't have good enough artists in house and I don't believe that is the case btw to make female avatars for two fairly straightforward classes (one's in armor, the other mutates slightly) then hire some other artists. Have one side of a two sided war have the ONLY gender exclusive classes and one entire race with no gender is lopsided. Chalk in the fact the side getting the shaft is the "bad" guys then it becomes even more lopsided.

Gaazruk

08-08-2007, 06:32 PM

I'm glad your opinion suddenly constitutes as fact. It really clears up everything.
I find it hard to take your rebuttle to my prior statements seriously due to your signature that says ''im right, your wrong, deal.''...

Hatemonger

08-08-2007, 06:34 PM

Well, it's largely irrelevant considering how embarrassingly weak your arguments were in the first place. But, by all means keep pretending like you can't take my arguments seriously, rather than the fact that you suddenly realized you didn't have a leg to stand on.

A simple, "Mythic artists said they couldn't capture the look, and I agree" would have sufficed, and would have left not room for rebuttal at all. :p

Gaazruk

08-08-2007, 06:36 PM

So because you personally do not like the look of some fan art that is enough justification to discriminate against female gamers or some male gamers? No offense but I just don't think its enough of a justification to say "we don't think we can draw it well enough despite other good looking fan art out there so hey, screw the gamers, who wants female melee fighters anyways for Chaos?"
Okay, erm so because 2 chaos classes are male only suddenly its discriminating against female gamers? are you serious? Mythic never said ANYTHING like "we dont think we can draw it welll enough despite other good looking fan art out there so hey, screw the gamers, who wants female melee fighters anyways for chaos?" Stop putting words in Mythics mouth, they arent sexist, they arent discriminating in anyway, your being absolutely ridiculous! In No way is having 2 male only chaos classes discriminating against an entire sex.

Fiendish

08-08-2007, 07:16 PM

Thoden Firehammer

08-08-2007, 07:21 PM

There will definitely be two female-only Dark Elf careers. Witch Elf and Sorceress*. So sayeth Fiendish...so say we all. :twisted:

*The male sorcerer thing...smoke and mirrors. Yes GW might have said yes technically there are some male sorcerers. Doesn't mean Mythic is doing it. They just didn't want the whining to start too early.

Gota point out the scorcers thing, uh since mythic is only going with the basic lore, that means that the Witchking never passed a law baning them to begin with, so... yeah they are lore acceptable either way.

I also don't understand "Oh well the Chaos classes are male only, lets Balance it by making the Dark Elf classes female only"

Um excuse me but this form of logic clearly surpasses me... how does this make it balanced... wouldn't it be more balanced if they made the High Elf classes female only instead of the Dark Elves, since this would balance both factions insted of severly gimping one?

havik110

08-08-2007, 07:25 PM

Obviously I hope this is not correct. Mythic already made a huge blunder by basically saying women aren't "tough" enough to cut it as Chaos melee fighters which is of course insane. I do NOT want to see them "be fair" by screwing Dark Elf players on top of Chaos female players by having two out of four classes be female restricted.

Do you guys realize that would make Destruction the only side with a whopping four gender restricted classes and an entire race with another four classes as gender neutral? :cry: Talk about stacking the deck to force people to play the "good guys"!

I have a real feeling that this does nothing to prevent anyone playing any class they want to play. I really dont think anyone cares if a guy plays a girl or a girl plays a guy any more. It is called tomb raider syndrome. Which would you rather look at for possibly a few years? the back side of a male sorcerer or a female sorceress (if you are a guy i hope you pick the latter :rolleyes:)

also i have another feeling that the destruction side is going to be over populated anyways. the chaos models are just plane sick and orc players will always play orcs (some sort of green fetish).

if you are right and too many people are going to go to order because of a few gender limited classes well thats great for population balance and sad for manginas everywhere:(

Fiendish

08-08-2007, 07:29 PM

Gota point out the scorcers thing, uh since mythic is only going with the basic lore, that means that the Witchking never passed a law baning them to begin with, so... yeah they are lore acceptable either way.

Oh I didn't realize you are on the lore review board at Mythic, since you have intimate knowledge of what lore they are and are not using.

But then again you have not the sweet whisperings of Tzeentch to guide you as I do; so believe what you will, his truth shall be known.

Thoden Firehammer

08-08-2007, 07:34 PM

Oh I didn't realize you are on the lore review board at Mythic, since you have intimate knowledge of what lore they are and are not using.

But then again you have not the sweet whisperings of Tzeentch to guide you as I do; so believe what you will, his truth shall be known.

/sigh, some people really can be quite insulting I guess it's just the internet.
Mythic said what lore they are using, take your head out of your bum listen some times.

Bulwyf

08-08-2007, 07:46 PM

I have a real feeling that this does nothing to prevent anyone playing any class they want to play. I really dont think anyone cares if a guy plays a girl or a girl plays a guy any more. It is called tomb raider syndrome. Which would you rather look at for possibly a few years? the back side of a male sorcerer or a female sorceress (if you are a guy i hope you pick the latter :rolleyes:)

also i have another feeling that the destruction side is going to be over populated anyways. the chaos models are just plane sick and orc players will always play orcs (some sort of green fetish).

if you are right and too many people are going to go to order because of a few gender limited classes well thats great for population balance and sad for manginas everywhere:(

I have never played a female avatar in a game nor do I ever plan on doing it. There is a significant number of gamers of both genders who have no interest in playing the opposite gender. Some of us actually see our avatar in a game as an extension of ourselves (like myself) so playing the opposite gender is for obvious reasons right out the door.

This game is going to be just like WoW in population: the relative handful of the entire population posts at sites like this and the overwhelming majority of them are going to pick the "good" guys because its what you are "supposed" to play. You toss in things like 8 out of 12 classes (!!) having gender restrictions or no gender on ONE SIDE ONLY and its insane to think that won't impact player population.

havik110

08-08-2007, 07:57 PM

I have never played a female avatar in a game nor do I ever plan on doing it. There is a significant number of gamers of both genders who have no interest in playing the opposite gender. Some of us actually see our avatar in a game as an extension of ourselves (like myself) so playing the opposite gender is for obvious reasons right out the door.

This game is going to be just like WoW in population: the relative handful of the entire population posts at sites like this and the overwhelming majority of them are going to pick the "good" guys because its what you are "supposed" to play. You toss in things like 8 out of 12 classes (!!) having gender restrictions or no gender on ONE SIDE ONLY and its insane to think that won't impact player population.

hmmm what percentage of the female night elves or blood elves in wow do you think are actually female IRL? I do belive that on most servers female night elves outnumber everything else, but i dont think there ar that many females playing.

What about dark elves and high elves in L2? How many of the leather fetish wearers (dark elves) do you think are actually female?

the simple fact is that most people dont care and a large # are immature young boys that want to see digital boobies.

i think its a little too early to proclaim victory over WOW there mr. Bush. The most popular game in the world for the last 4 years is still going strong and will continue as long as it keeps allowing new people to feel like they are as good as the players before them because the level increases make raid gear unimportant.

I will now quote the greatest man to ever play Lineage and wow (greatest ever) If your character is anything like you then i bet the AI girls talk to you about as much as the ones IRL. ---All hail SGT. Grumbles

Selandri

08-08-2007, 07:57 PM

We have yet to get confirmation it's two out of four.

It could be FOUR out of four! Four Female only Dark Elf classes? Woot woot.

Uh. Right.

While I do feel it may affect population, since I plan on going Destruction at this point I see that as a good thing. I prefer being on the lower populated side. If it happens, it happens.

As to the 'balancing' the male only classes, I don't see it as that. I don't think it's something you can balance. I'm just curious to see how many people get upset over it, because now it will affect those folks saying "Well I'm a bloke so I don't care."

Purely curiosity on my part.

Dustandpolos

08-08-2007, 07:59 PM

I suppose it is to the credit of this forum that this is the most heated I've seen a thread get on here.

Personally, I see no problem with female Chosen. Marauders seemed obvious a mile off, due mainly to the armour sets and concept art we've seen, but it would've saved a lot of fuss had both been included as female characters too.

Thing is, I don't really see why people assume Mythic are being sexist. They are a company; they want to generate as much revenue as possible. Sexism makes no business sense as it alienates a substantial potential market, even in gaming, and from what little knowledge I have, Mythic have surely proven themselves possesive of excellent business sense.

People can and have put together strong cases for the argument that Mythic made a mistake; I think it was probably the wrong decision, at least with Chosen. However some people have taken it as a slap in the face of women everywhere, or as representing some deep-seated sexism in Mythic's outlook. Really, it was only ever a business decision. Someone somewhere decided that it was not a financially rewarding task to put female Chosen and Marauders in. Possibly it would have cost them credit with GW, although the IP side of this can be argued as long as you like and I really don't know enough to comment. Possibly the artists just weren't up to the task. Possibly demographics suggested that the numbers likely to play female Chosen didn't justify the man-hours spent on their development. And very possibly they got it wrong. But they are the experts making the game, so until I carry out my own demographic surveys, research the problems they faced and the projected costs of female models and animations, I will reserve my judgement and give them at least a little of the credit they deserve as leading developers in the MMO field. And I certainly won't accuse an entire organisation, now under EA supervision, which employs a number of female staff, of risking alienating female gamers purely on a sexist whim.

Tonev

08-08-2007, 08:09 PM

I had to jump in here after asking 6 of my current female guild members to read through this thread specifically. Now, after they read this and seen that "Mythic" will actually have female specific classes in the game they are very happy with it and have agreed that it should be like this.

In my honest opinion I am very glad that the developers regardless of it being due to "how they couldn't capture the art for the class" or just in whole decide that this was how it should be. I see no feminist type of mental in this decision by Mythic and really would hate to see a Dark elf male running around in a thong talking about sacrificing all the Dark elves he ran across (there are idiots who would roll this).

Again I see no real uproar response from the "real females" about their decision with this and don't really care about what the "Manginas" or "SHIMS" who have their tail feathers in a ruff want and I bet many others on this topic feel the same way.

LookinGreen

08-08-2007, 08:11 PM

Again I see no real uproar response from the "real females" about their decision with this and don't really care about what the manginas or SHIMS want (I bet many others feel the same way to).

Personally I prefer the term Shemales

Bulwyf

08-08-2007, 08:13 PM

hmmm what percentage of the female night elves or blood elves in wow do you think are actually female IRL? I do belive that on most servers female night elves outnumber everything else, but i dont think there ar that many females playing.

What about dark elves and high elves in L2? How many of the leather fetish wearers (dark elves) do you think are actually female?

the simple fact is that most people dont care and a large # are immature young boys that want to see digital boobies.

i think its a little too early to proclaim victory over WOW there mr. Bush. The most popular game in the world for the last 4 years is still going strong and will continue as long as it keeps allowing new people to feel like they are as good as the players before them because the level increases make raid gear unimportant.

I will now quote the greatest man to ever play Lineage and wow (greatest ever) If your character is anything like you then i bet the AI girls talk to you about as much as the ones IRL. ---All hail SGT. Grumbles

Er....what part of my post that you quoted had ANY thing remotely related to "WAR is going to beat WoW" In it??? :confused:

As for the rest of your post, I have no idea what the percentages are. But if 10% of guys are ok playing female toons (and that's a high number) and you still only see one out of every four toons be female what does that show? That the vast majority of male gamers are in fact playing male toons.

Selandri

08-08-2007, 08:18 PM

Bulwyf

08-08-2007, 08:21 PM

Eh. The second someone uses the words "mangina" or "SHIM" I lose any and all respect for their argument. Which is a pity, because till then it was well written.

From a lore based perspective, female only Dark Elves = good. So I'm happy.

Actually from a lore based perspective there are so many gender neutral classes to pick from that it would be insane and IMO grossly unfair for Mythic to ignore other iconic and cool classes to just pick two female only classes to try and "pay back" female gamers for excluding them in Chaos.

Gaazruk

08-08-2007, 08:22 PM

Actually from a lore based perspective there are so many gender neutral classes to pick from that it would be insane and IMO grossly unfair for Mythic to ignore other iconic and cool classes to just pick two female only classes to try and "pay back" female gamers for excluding them in Chaos.
Oh Yes because its not at all like Witch Elfs are in anyway Iconic...

Selandri

08-08-2007, 08:24 PM

While I do agree there are other possible careers which are gender neutral, but I believe Witch Elves and Sorceresses are extremely iconic and will make this a better game.

After all, those who don't want to play a female have Chosen and Marauders.

Fiendish

08-08-2007, 08:29 PM

As for the rest of your post, I have no idea what the percentages are. But if 10% of guys are ok playing female toons (and that's a high number) and you still only see one out of every four toons be female what does that show? That the vast majority of male gamers are in fact playing male toons.

Only 10% comfortable? That's a gross underestimate. It's much higher than that, I know quite a few male gamers who play females as their main and many many more that have at least one female alt.

Females seem to have a much harder time crossing that gender boundary than men do.

Tonev

08-08-2007, 08:48 PM

Eh. The second someone uses the words "mangina" or "SHIM" I lose any and all respect for their argument. Which is a pity, because till then it was well written.

From a lore based perspective, female only Dark Elves = good. So I'm happy.

I had to add that in there Selandri, as it was direct quotes from the females in ventrillo I was talking to. They feel that the biggest argument about this topic (after reading it) hasn't even come from female posters at all but the males who wanna play the female characters.

Now, being that they are "Warhammer" Dark elf fans and I am really new to the whole out line here (they know more than me) I see the only real argument here is not that "Mythic" is being Sexist but that "Male" Dark elf players wanna play a female avatar period.

Now, I could be wrong in my analysis or biased by friends "Linda,Cheryl and Ruby" (choosing their side and agreeing with them on this) but ,I really don't see a big problem with classes from the books of Warhammer, that have been around for many..many years being correct in the online game also (I still have yet to see a male DE Witch or Hag, heck can someone show me a pic of a female Marauder army?).

havik110

08-08-2007, 08:57 PM

Only 10% comfortable? That's a gross underestimate. It's much higher than that, I know quite a few male gamers who play females as their main and many many more that have at least one female alt.

Females seem to have a much harder time crossing that gender boundary than men do.
yeah im guessing a quarter of the female toons in wow are male irl. It might be even higher...

My main was a female nightelf too :rolleyes: but she was a tank, and was happy being a tank until burning crusade came out

Half of the tanks in my guild were males playing female toons (man we had 5 regulars...). I never actually have met a female who actually wanted to tank. So basically if before BC you saw female toon warriors in Wrath, they were male.

Selandri

08-08-2007, 08:59 PM

Ah, my apologies Toney, I continually ( despite evidence to the contrary ) think of women as more mature than men.

And agreed. There's no argument against the lore of female restricted Druchii classes. I'll be head over heels if Witch Elves truly are in, that would be a dream come true. And yes, I'm a bloke, oh noes.

That said, there's quantities of lore supporting female choices for the Marauder and Chosen. The whole bared boobs thing is taken care of with the Zealot, whose tier 4 is also bare chested but the female has a corset type thing covering the wibbly bits.

So I shall wait for Leipzig before I break out the champagne :)

havik110

08-08-2007, 09:39 PM

think of it this way. I dont specifically want to play a female toon. I want to play a witch elf. The basic reason is that I started playing 40k 2 years ago and my 1st army was the dark eldar. The army i bought was melee heavy (in 40k they are called wyches) and so i have about 50 wyches not counting dracites. Wyches were the first thing that got me into the Warhammer universe. They were gladiatorial chicks (and in 40k men also) who take drugs and kill just about anything if they can get into melee (if they dont get into melee they die badly)

anyways if they dont have witch elves (which i think this quote proves they will be playable) im playing a chosen.

I dont think its that there is any negative status associated with men playing female toons anymore (as long as in a raid you know what your supposed to do and you do it well). As i said before what would you rather look at for the next 2 years? I think that in MMOs choosing gender is only an aesthetic choose at this point (maybe there will be stat differences in some classes with both genders but ive only seen that happen in elder scroll games...)

Noesis

08-08-2007, 10:18 PM

Despite my disdain for the male choice on the Marauders, and Chose, the stickler in me has to point out that two out of four is not most, it's half. o_o

You know im not going to be PC here...

But seriously how can someone complain about men only Chosen and Marauders? Give me a break. Man Chosen vrs Woman Chosen.

let me know who wins.

Hatemonger

08-08-2007, 10:20 PM

Whoever is stronger.

Obviously. :rolleyes:

Selandri

08-08-2007, 10:21 PM

Morag

08-08-2007, 10:49 PM

I think it's stupid to jump to conclusions based on how you interpret the comment made by Josh. It's funny how much people will pick apart and read in to comments that others make. I can't wait till they release the info in Germany so I don't have to see threads like this every other day.

Anyways, one thing I don't really like about the destruction pairing is how limiting it already is in regards to the customization of your character. So far half of the destruction classes have to be male. I don't care if you think greenskins don't count because they are asexual. They are obviously designed after a male physique.

I think it would be dumb for them to further limit destruction by adding two more gender restricted careers despite how "iconic" you feel they may be. Keep in mind I am against the decision they made when they declared the Chosen and Marauder careers male only. Hopefully when they unveil the elven careers they will have gone with more open units from TT. Then destruction players won't be forced to play a gender they don't want to while still being able to play the race and career type they wanted to play.

Noesis

08-08-2007, 11:47 PM

Except, Noesis, if you read up on the Chaos lore, or hell even the numerous threads DEALING with these issues, you'll note that nothing is normal in Chaos.

In your example, who would win, man or woman.

Depends. Their strength, their mutations, their skill, their agility, their previous wounds, their previous experience, etc etc etc.

This is not 'REALITY', though I'm a fairly big bloke and I've met women who I'd be a bit sketchy about fighting. Within the setting there's no 'Would a man or woman win?' since Chaos goes beyond gender 'norms' into the realm of possibilities.

Point taken.

Yet considering Marauders really have no mutations I think my generalization still stands at least for them. But sure, I suppose I could see female chosen.

That being said, evolution has designed women for a purpose, and men for a purpose.

This purpose hinders women's ability to perform at par or superior to men in most physical activities, especially combat. This is on average of course.

In addition, women are far more valuable than men in tribal societies since they give birth to young. Therefore it is extremely unwise to have a tribe's precious women fighting unless absolutely necessary. The northmen are a tribal society. As such, this model applies. Especially considering the enormous rates of death prevalent in these societies from constant fighting, and probably high rate of child death on account of conditions.

Vianne

08-09-2007, 12:55 AM

That being said, evolution has designed women for a purpose, and men for a purpose.

This purpose hinders women's ability to perform at par or superior to men in most physical activities, especially combat. This is on average of course.

Physical strength does not necessarily have anything to do with prowess in combat, as proven to us by most forms of martial arts.. where technique, knowledge of anatomy and the ability to take advantage of your opponents momentum rule supreme.

Trying to claim that women are somehow inferior to men is.. archaic at best.

Morag

08-09-2007, 01:23 AM

Point taken.

Yet considering Marauders really have no mutations I think my generalization still stands at least for them. But sure, I suppose I could see female chosen.

That being said, evolution has designed women for a purpose, and men for a purpose.

This purpose hinders women's ability to perform at par or superior to men in most physical activities, especially combat. This is on average of course.

In addition, women are far more valuable than men in tribal societies since they give birth to young. Therefore it is extremely unwise to have a tribe's precious women fighting unless absolutely necessary. The northmen are a tribal society. As such, this model applies. Especially considering the enormous rates of death prevalent in these societies from constant fighting, and probably high rate of child death on account of conditions.

Marauders are all about mutations in WAR, their whole gimmick is about mutating. What's the difference between a male Marauder mutating his arm into a gigantic crab claw and a female Marauder doing the exact same thing?

As for the rest of your post... Well, it has nothing to do with women in WAR. First of all, you are saying that women are physically inferior in comparison to men. So, explain to me why a class whose gimmick is changing their physical body to kill people is somehow less realistic than a female Knight of the Blazing Sun, or a female Witch Hunter, or a female Warrior Priest? Especially considering that people have provided examples from the lore that female warriors exist for Chaos.

Keep in mind that I am not contending Mythic's decision to exclude female Chosen and Marauders, even though I think it is a bad idea. I think your reasoning here is faulty.

havik110

08-09-2007, 03:17 AM

well go to the games workshop page and look at the marauders models. all of them are male. also none of the chaos champions appear to be female (hence no female marauders or chosen.)

also vianne watch some kendo. when you have a sword in your hands you parent worried about a specific body part, you just want to land the first blow. chances are , its going to be the only one. so that part of your argument has no meaning. as to why chosen cant be female i point at the models.

remember if you are posting here you are more then the average gamer. at release most arent going to notice or care.

Mythic is doing this right, they are following the lore which will make it a good game.

Ralzar

08-09-2007, 03:45 AM

well go to the games workshop page and look at the marauders models. all of them are male. also none of the chaos champions appear to be female (hence no female marauders or chosen.)

While you're looking over the GW pages, why don't you point out all the female Dwarf and Empire models that justified Mythic putting them in? What is represented by the TT models is FAR from the end all and be all of Warhammer.

Kellaris

08-09-2007, 04:33 AM

Selandri

08-09-2007, 04:33 AM

The lore is in the books, not the models. I can convert a model to represent a seven tongued porcupine. I can then refer to that as my Chaos Lord who shall defeat the entire world yada yada yada. It does not make it lore.

I can show you female greenskins. Made by Games Workshop. They are not 'lore'.

The books state, in at least three separate publications, including the Chaos Army Book, that men and WOMEN become warriors for Chaos.

The books state that womens place in the Northern tribes is more powerful than those in the South ( Ie, the Empire. )

The books state that the tribes are in constant conflict and the women are often as skilled in arms as the men.

These points have been done to death. There are numerous other threads with quotes. Stating that the lore states only male Marauders and / or Chosen is utter and complete fallacy.

It's also off topic with the thread, which I am partially to blame for. The Marauder / Chosen topic has been done to death, stick to Dark Elves since the forum does say "Discuss the Dark Elf army and their lands."

And yes I should follow that with this post but I'm somewhat fanatical about my lore. My precious, precious lore.

Vianne

08-09-2007, 04:36 AM

also vianne watch some kendo. when you have a sword in your hands you parent worried about a specific body part, you just want to land the first blow. chances are , its going to be the only one. so that part of your argument has no meaning.

So technique, reflexes and dexterity have no part to play in swordsmanship then, right?:rolleyes:
My point was, it's not all about physical strength. Especially when you need to get the first strike... And in fact relying on brute force can often be turned against you.

Strength != ability, skill or prowess

Bulwyf

08-09-2007, 05:08 AM

I have to say that whole this "Elf Secrecy" stuff is total failure of marketing policy.
Nothing good comes from it. Only fight, flame and pointless discussions in community.
We shoul discuss about certain possibilities or skills or sth for characters.
And we are only commenting the decision that have been made long ago, and we don't know it jet. Absolutely pointless.
And longer we wait, the bigger dissapointment it will be.
Becouse it will be dissapointment. After all theese discussions, some of us will be loosers.
It is unavoidable. And it sucks.
It IS a crap.
Greenskins know characters a long time. They don't have stupid discussions "why we don't have Wolf Riders- They are iconic". They have what they have and got used to it.

And now, we have 2 weeks to Leipzig.
Hard weeks of waiting and uncertainty.
At the end of theese weeks, 2 options. They will make me happy, and maybe , maybe I will be satisfied enough to forget theese months of waiting.
Or. I will be greatly dissapointed.
Becouse, it may happen that my beloved Druchii will be broken. Becouse 75% of their population will be female. 50% of realm population will be Druchii only becouse they like looking at naked elf asses.
Crap.
Well, hope dies last.

I feel exactly the same way. If they do have two female only classes and one of them in a melee spot do I at least have one good male option at the other melee spot? Do I really want to see the Warhammer TB army I've played since 1987 be reduced to 50% or more chain mail bikinis population because its the only "HUHU B00BS and ARSE!" character class in the game?

I also hate that when the careers are listed instead of the regulars here who love DE being able to say "wow, cool, we get this and this and that and that and I hope someday they put "X" in the game" we'll have "HAHA! I was right! DIAF those who disagreed!" commentary and feelings. They should have revealed the career names several months ago just to avoid this kind of community infighting and to let people come to grips with whatever the careers will be.

Hatemonger

08-09-2007, 05:48 AM

Bulwyf

08-09-2007, 06:03 AM

Of course the tank is going to most likely going to be a gender neutral class, but I think you severely underestimate the potential for Witch Elf armor. It is certainly more than 'chain male butts and boobs' good Sir.

If WE are in they are hands down the most T&A class in this game if they make them resemble the actual models and artwork from lore. Their only real competition would be a Sorceress. And oh yeah! they both would be the same race which by default would mean half the population or more. :-P

Drunkenmaster

08-09-2007, 06:56 AM

They might 'pull a zealot' and make up a class which still could be gender restricted ofcourse, but with more options. On the other hand I do belive Xurré made a point regarding possible Witch elf armor progression so that shouldn't be a problem.

Noli me Tangere

08-09-2007, 07:02 AM

Not to side-track this thread, any more than it already is, but..

You know im not going to be PC here...

But seriously how can someone complain about men only Chosen and Marauders? Give me a break. Man Chosen vrs Woman Chosen.

let me know who wins.

Complaining, and holding something in disdain, or distaste, is hardly the same thing. Presenting reasonable opinions on a subject.

Reality does not come into it (This is a bloody fantasy setting, reality does not come into it).
Evolution does not come into it (This is a bloody fantasy, evolution didn't design anything here).

And more than that, this is Chaos: Normal. Rules. Do. Not. Apply.

There aren't any rules.

This is Chaos. Everyone lives, fights, and dies for the glory of Chaos. Regardless of gender they are strong and powerful. Male or female, in chaos, you are are an unstoppable terror to behold, ever stronger, ever more terrifying, and your body ever more twisted by mutation.. forging your body into an unstoppable killing machine.

Gender doesn't even become a question.

Male. Female. Whatever. You fight for Chaos, or you get caught in its wake.

Ive seen many of the artworks and I think it doesnt look at ALL as good as any of the other artwork in the game, Mythic is trying to make a great game and if the artists decide they cant make it look as good as the rest of the game and choose not to put it in... and GAMESWORKSHOP OKAYS IT... then its a fine decision. If by calling mythic sexist you think it will change anything at all, your wrong. Go try and draw a female chosen in the Tier 4 Chosen armor that looks as amazing the male chosen in tier 4 armor then okay, I will admit im wrong and I will apologise but until you show me that. Im sorry to say, Mythic made the right choice and there is nothing wrong with their decision. The few female chosen fan art out there atm doesnt look even remotely good.

Actually, if you'd bother to do the slightest amount of research, official art from the Liber Chaotic of a female chosen, and a female warrior of Slannesh were put up on these very forums. And it's the least the female Chaos art, warrior-type and otherwise, that you can find.

The following is the specific part of the post:

Two female images pulled directly from the Liber Chaotic itself by me. One is a female Chosen clad in full plate and the other female warrior of Slannesh. Of course with the right adaptations and armor she could be made to fit the "Marauder" mold so to speak. These are just a trickle of the Chaos inspired artwork that can be found in that book itself, excluding all other sources. I would post more but I don't have the space to do so right now.

http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/1512/chaos02az0.jpg

http://img468.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chaos01mc3.jpg

The entire post can be found here:

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=420153&postcount=265

Now, back to your regularly scheduled Dark Elf thread.

Illya

08-09-2007, 07:06 AM

Noli me Tangere

08-09-2007, 07:13 AM

After taking the time to read through the entire thread, ignoring the flames and off-topic discussions, I can only come to the same conclusion as Kellaris.

No doubt the HE players are in the same ship as we are, though I get the feeling there are more DE fans than HE fans. Making two of the four classes female only would be a mistake, in my opinion. Sure, you've got your 13-year-old boys just realizing girls aren't icky and wanting to see half naked elf chicks. And you've got the girls who don't want to play a male toon. Understandable, and as far as the girls are concerned, respected. But why take it all out on Destruction?

I'd agree, the HE side of things in the polls.. tends to be the lowest of the polls and general talk (Which, in a way, is sort of tell tale of why they 'wouldn't' have gender specific classes).

If Chaos has two male-only classes, do they really think making the Dark Elves have two female-only classes will balance it out? I seriously doubt it will do anything but remove the popularity from the destruction side, and that leads to unbalanced servers. Sure, you might say: well, I like being outnumbered, etc, bla bla bla. But if you're constantly outnumbered, you won't be able to capture an enemy fortress, and I'm sure you'd get bored of having to continually defend your own strongholds. The "I don't mind being outnumbered"-argument is weak, I think.Some people have suggested that that's exactly what they're doing. Things to make destruction less appealing. Warhammer has always had some of the most enthralling dark sides. :D

With several excellent non-gender specific choices available, why go for two female only classes? If Witch Elves make it in, good for them. But I would be severely disappointed if there wasn't a DE class I liked, because I love DE's. I really want to play as one, but I'm one of those that actually prefers to play as my own gender, rather than as a female. I don't get my jollies from looking at computer games, sorry. The statement "It's better to look at a female butt than a male butt" is silly imo.This is a side effect of Chaos getting two male only classes, no matter whether which race (HE or DE) ends up with the female classes to, supposedly, counter balance it. It's silly. Female only DE classes makes sense. The male only Chaos classes never did, not by any standard set by the lore.

You're right. It doesn't do justice to the people that like options (regardless of their reasons). There should be more options, not less options. And you're right again, they should balance things in both factions. It would make more sense to include a female only class, or two, on the destruction side and then male only classes to mirror that on the Order side (because they actually have factions and classes in the lore that that would fit with).

Maybe I'm biased.

Blaze

08-09-2007, 07:32 AM

Amazing! When I read the topic I though: "This is going to derail into a discussion about gender restricted Chaos careers." :rolleyes:
And it did! I've been browsing these forums too much.

Anyways... it seems very much like Witch Elves are in.
Exellent.
I hope they do them justice.

We don't even know for certain so I might be looking too far ahead here but...

Excluding sorcerors, if they decide to do it, might also be a design issue. As in, they don't see it's worth spending time (and money) trying to come up with a look for a male dark elf caster. Instead they leave them out and focus on things they feel is more important. Most players playing that career would probably go for female anyway. So they take the easy way out so to speak.

Now, just like with gender restricted Chaos careers I don't like it. I think choice is a good thing in MMOs, and gender restrictions should be only for when there is no other way, like with Witch Elves.

But honestly, there are so many things that look great about this game I'm willing to forgive the developers for this.

As for the population imbalance: Of course, I hope the sides will be as balanced as possible. But I don't mind at all if Destruction (my future faction) will be less populated than Order side. Beeing the underdog appeals to me, and the outnumbered side will have a more close-knit community and more realm pride.

Bulwyf

08-09-2007, 07:40 AM

Zoatibix

08-09-2007, 08:27 AM

The problem is we need to make Destruction slightly less attractive otherwise Destruction will rule the roost.

I mean just look at order: humans, dwarfs and high Elves...why on earth is anybody going to want to play Order until the Lizardmen arrive? Eh?

We have the Dark Elves, Chaos and Orcs. We'll be turning people away I tell you.

Bulwyf

08-09-2007, 08:37 AM

Illya

08-09-2007, 08:43 AM

Speaking as someone who played a Mid in Daoc, a Horde in a heavily outnumbered WoW server, and going against the uber beta guild in Shadowbane...you people who want to be the underdogs have no idea what exactly it entails. You do not get a badge for being zerged over and over and over and over. You do not get extra 1337 points for saying "Well I was there when all of us together as a realm got zerged to hell and we lost all the relics/keeps yet again". Saying that intentionally gimping player's choices as a mean to *ensure* population disparity is grossly unfair and the height of selfishness. The vast majority of gamers always choose the "good" guys. Having a bevy of gender restricted and genderless classes on just one side and the "bad" guy side at that is not good for the game.

Take it from someone who has been there, hung in for as long as possible, and knows what it really is like to be a true underdog 24/7 in a PVP MMO. It sucks. And once people get tired of being zerged and move to the "winning" side (and it always happens) that disparity just widens and widens.

I do not want to see that pattern repeat in WAR.

Granted, I haven't played DAoC, but I've played WoW, and I've felt the same thing. On most servers, Horde were heavily outnumbered, and it was really no fun playing as one, because of gankers, the AH was always empty, prices were sky high because of the limited availability, it sucked.

Now, WAR has something WoW doesn't, in my opinion, which is an "evil" side that's very very cool. Dark Elves are evil, murderous, treacherous , and I love them. Chaos is uncontrolled evil, threatening to destroy the entire world. I'd never play it, but I still love it. It would be a terrible thing to see these huge advantages for actually getting a balanced good vs evil battle thrown away by some poor choices in classes.

Then again, we may yet be positively surprised. I've already gotten my share of joy, that I'll be able to play a Witch Hunter after 6 years of waiting by the time the game comes out. So not playing Dark Elves won't be a total loss, but one I'll feel none the less, as will many others who might be disappointed with the final class line-up. We can only hope for the best...and in my case, be prepared for the worst.

Messk

08-09-2007, 09:23 AM

Throt the Unclean

08-09-2007, 10:29 AM

You know im not going to be PC here...

But seriously how can someone complain about men only Chosen and Marauders? Give me a break. Man Chosen vrs Woman Chosen.

let me know who wins.

Where's the difference with "male KotBS vs female KoTBS" or "male Hammerer vs female Hammerer"? or do you think women are too weak and girly for those classes too?

Throt the Unclean

08-09-2007, 10:34 AM

Noesis

08-09-2007, 10:34 AM

Physical strength does not necessarily have anything to do with prowess in combat, as proven to us by most forms of martial arts.. where technique, knowledge of anatomy and the ability to take advantage of your opponents momentum rule supreme.

Trying to claim that women are somehow inferior to men is.. archaic at best.

Are we talking about karate fighting? Chopping blocks of wood with our fists? No, we are talking about fully armored combatants wearing massive hulking armor and wielding giant weapons. This type of martial art rewards high physical strength and endurance over agility. In this CONTEXT, women ON AVERAGE would tend to be outmatched. Probably to the point that their appearence for that specific class (warrior priest, KoTBS, etc) would be so underrepresented as to be non-existant.

However, if the martial art were fencing, one might even discover that women ON AVERAGE would perform better than men. Since this martial art rewards quick, fast, and agile moves to win.

Marauders are all about mutations in WAR, their whole gimmick is about mutating. What's the difference between a male Marauder mutating his arm into a gigantic crab claw and a female Marauder doing the exact same thing?

As for the rest of your post... Well, it has nothing to do with women in WAR. First of all, you are saying that women are physically inferior in comparison to men. So, explain to me why a class whose gimmick is changing their physical body to kill people is somehow less realistic than a female Knight of the Blazing Sun, or a female Witch Hunter, or a female Warrior Priest? Especially considering that people have provided examples from the lore that female warriors exist for Chaos.

Keep in mind that I am not contending Mythic's decision to exclude female Chosen and Marauders, even though I think it is a bad idea. I think your reasoning here is faulty.

Excellent points. I didn't really consider this when I was making my claim. I was thinking more along the lines of the table top game rather than the online game. In TT, marauders are more or less just standard humans that haven't been "blessed" with mutations yet. The wild card of mutations and chaos possession/magic would in my eyes totally nullify any parallels between our world and warhammer with regards to human capabilities.

Additionally, if mythic is already going to include female warrior priests, KoTBs, and what have you, then I really don't see what the problem is with making female marauders or chosen.

Kellaris

08-09-2007, 10:37 AM

Now, WAR has something WoW doesn't, in my opinion, which is an "evil" side that's very very cool. Dark Elves are evil, murderous, treacherous , and I love them. Chaos is uncontrolled evil, threatening to destroy the entire world. I'd never play it, but I still love it.

The problem is, that You are not average player.
Average player (RPG, CRPG, WOW) in most cases used to play good elf/dwarf/ human.
For him, Dark Elves are... theese funny little guys whu hide in underdark??
Greenskins?? They are week, we are killing them in hundreds.
Chaos?? what the hell is that. Im sopposed to mutate and look lika some monster?? That sucks.

High Elves?? They are like Legolas!!
And if someone is going to write about Salvatore: Dridzzt is good fellow.

Xurré

08-09-2007, 11:47 AM

And if someone is going to write about Salvatore: Dridzzt is good fellow.
Yes, but still a dark elf. The whole point of Drizzt (that which makes him so 'cool' to many people, next to the whole dual-wielding thing) is that he's a good guy despite coming from an 'evil' race. If you want to play a Drizzt clone and you've got the choice between good elves and evil elves it makes a lot more sense to play the evil ones and say "but I'm really good".

...O M G... It'll be the clash of the Drizzts versus the Legolasses. :shock:

- Xurré

Throt the Unclean

08-09-2007, 12:03 PM

Yes, but still a dark elf. The whole point of Drizzt (that which makes him so 'cool' to many people, next to the whole dual-wielding thing) is that he's a good guy despite coming from an 'evil' race. If you want to play a Drizzt clone and you've got the choice between good elves and evil elves it makes a lot more sense to play the evil ones and say "but I'm really good".

...O M G... It'll be the clash of the Drizzts versus the Legolasses. :shock:

- Xurré

It's got to be hard roleplaying a Drizzt style character when the other faction have you pegged as KOS, you can only comunicate with your fellow disorder players anyway and all the quests involve you making blood sacrifices and indiscriminately massacring highelves.

On the other hand you could just roll a High Elf, give him a Dark Elven name, and the darkest hair colour available and just "pretend" to be a Dark Elf. I'm sure most roleplayers will go along with it.

Noli me Tangere

08-09-2007, 12:04 PM

Blaze

08-09-2007, 12:07 PM

...O M G... It'll be the clash of the Drizzts versus the Legolasses. :shock:

Oh man... We need to take this question to some suitable forum:

"Who would win in a fight, Drizzt or Legolas?"

I bet it will be like pirates vs. ninjas ALL OVER AGAIN! This will be bigger than All your Base... trust me on this! :D

Posting it here would only make people laugh. Need some forum that is nerdy enough... perhaps the official WotC boards. But then again they might be biased... *ponders*

Let the battle of the fanboys... Begin!

Xurré

08-09-2007, 12:13 PM

It's got to be hard roleplaying a Drizzt style character when the other faction have you pegged as KOS, you can only comunicate with your fellow disorder players anyway and all the quests involve you making blood sacrifices and indiscriminately massacring highelves.

On the other hand you could just roll a High Elf, give him a Dark Elven name, and the darkest hair colour available and just "pretend" to be a Dark Elf. I'm sure most roleplayers will go along with it.
You're not really that familiar with the whole 'good drow' thing, are you.

That's exactly the point. Then they (I'm talking Drizzt-clones here mostly, there's also loads of good and serious roleplayers; I've got a site full of them) can be all angsty and go "woe is me, I'm trying to be good, but all the good guys want to kill me and all the bad guys hate me".

Hmmm, in some ways a Drizzt-clone is the Emo of the fantasy world. :p

- Xurré

Noli me Tangere

08-09-2007, 12:22 PM

You're not really that familiar with the whole 'good drow' thing, are you.

That's exactly the point. Then they (I'm talking Drizzt-clones here mostly, there's also loads of good and serious roleplayers; I've got a site full of them) can be all angsty and go "woe is me, I'm trying to be good, but all the good guys want to kill me and all the bad guys hate me".

Hmmm, in some ways a Drizzt-clone is the Emo of the fantasy world. :p

- Xurré

And there's always Liriel Baenre, for the ones that don't like Drizzt, which is essentially a female version of Drizzt, in a way, except I think she maintained a bit of her evil side, even after going good.

Throt the Unclean

08-09-2007, 12:38 PM

You're not really that familiar with the whole 'good drow' thing, are you.

That's exactly the point. Then they (I'm talking Drizzt-clones here mostly, there's also loads of good and serious roleplayers; I've got a site full of them) can be all angsty and go "woe is me, I'm trying to be good, but all the good guys want to kill me and all the bad guys hate me".

Hmmm, in some ways a Drizzt-clone is the Emo of the fantasy world. :p

- Xurré

Well as long as they all keep to theirselves it shouldn't be a problem.

Besides we won't be seeing them past teir one, I mean if they start talking all that "I'm soo good really" junk in teir 4 all you have to do is point to the trail of corpses they left behind them as they leveled and say "I think they might disagree" ;)

Xurré

08-09-2007, 12:49 PM

And there's always Liriel Baenre, for the ones that don't like Drizzt, which is essentially a female version of Drizzt, in a way, except I think she maintained a bit of her evil side, even after going good.
Now, I don’t agree with that. Liriel isn’t a “female version of Drizzt”. She doesn’t have the same angsty thing going (in fact she rather seems to enjoy life), she isn’t an absurdly trained weapon wielder (but a very well trained mage with some clerical abilities) and she isn’t being cloned much if at all. Anything over-the-top with seems more due to the setting than the character.

There’s also Qilué Veladorn (if you want to talk over-the-top powerful then look no further than the Seven Sisters; in this case one who is Chosen of not one but two deities). Don’t get me wrong, I like the character (and she, too, isn’t cloned much at all), but there’s definitely more than just one good drow to clone.

And still they only really seem to clone Drizzt.

Anyway, getting rather off-topic. But good drow is a topic close to my heart. ;)

- Xurré

Ranti

08-09-2007, 01:17 PM

Obviously I hope this is not correct. Mythic already made a huge blunder by basically saying women aren't "tough" enough to cut it as Chaos melee fighters which is of course insane. I do NOT want to see them "be fair" by screwing Dark Elf players on top of Chaos female players by having two out of four classes be female restricted.

Do you guys realize that would make Destruction the only side with a whopping four gender restricted classes and an entire race with another four classes as gender neutral? :cry: Talk about stacking the deck to force people to play the "good guys"!

this was just pathetic

I am starting to love gender restricted careers, it just pisses some people of so much. It is humorous in a sadistic kind of way.

1) that is not the reason for male only chaos careers. Chosen would look bad, and mauraders are generally, almost always, depicted in lore as male and thus are males.
(i also think making female and male mauraders would complicate there combat mechanics graphically

2) I seriously doubt gender restricted careers will affect faction balance, at all. You are probably one of the same people who are worried destruction will be overpopulated because it has a lot of really cool looking, less generic, characters.

2)

Noli me Tangere

08-09-2007, 01:45 PM

2) I seriously doubt gender restricted careers will affect faction balance, at all. You are probably one of the same people who are worried destruction will be overpopulated because it has a lot of really cool looking, less generic, characters.

2)

I think that's a rather skewed viewpoint, be it Witch Elves or male only Chosen or otherwise. Of course it's going to affect faction balance. In some massive way? No, of course not. I think it would be a little silly, though, to not realize that, yes, people will go to a different race, even a different faction, because an option they may want is not "there" but it available somewhere else.

Some massive ungodly portion of the potential WAR population? No, of course not. But, yes, it will be a factor. Just like any little thing. As a general, things happen as a result of many small, seemingly insignificant occurrences or realities. Rather than one big thing, but, sometimes a big thing along with a bunch of small things.

Now, I don’t agree with that. Liriel isn’t a “female version of Drizzt”. She doesn’t have the same angsty thing going (in fact she rather seems to enjoy life), she isn’t an absurdly trained weapon wielder (but a very well trained mage with some clerical abilities) and she isn’t being cloned much if at all. Anything over-the-top with seems more due to the setting than the character.

The lady transported an entire pirate ship over a great distance by calling upon Lolth to temporarily phase the ship into her plain of absolute creepiness. "Some" clerical abilities? :P

But it's the same concept, in a manner, she's evil, she's good, her boyfriend gets offed in the third book and then she's a sad emo panda. :(

But yes, off topic. <_<

Athenys

08-09-2007, 01:59 PM

Odd thing about the whole argument is that there is, lorewise, a male counterpart to virtually every female DE class:

Acolyte/ Witch Elf
Revenant/ Blood Witch
High Priest/ Hag
Shadowcaster/ Sorceress

The lady transported an entire pirate ship over a great distance by calling upon Lolth to temporarily phase the ship into her plain of absolute creepiness. "Some" clerical abilities? :P

Well, Urial did do something similar now didn't he ;)?

Mike3791

08-09-2007, 02:11 PM

Im told that it says in the DE rulebook that male casters are strictly prohibited in DE society and rogue sorcorers are killed on sight. The one exception is the Witch King himself. If this is true then, yes sorcoresses will be female only.

Noli me Tangere

08-09-2007, 02:16 PM

Well, Urial did do something similar now didn't he ;)?

I'm not saying it's not without precedent ..just that that sort of thing isn't exactly small potatoes. o_O;

Bulwyf

08-09-2007, 02:18 PM

this was just pathetic

I am starting to love gender restricted careers, it just pisses some people of so much. It is humorous in a sadistic kind of way.

1) that is not the reason for male only chaos careers. Chosen would look bad, and mauraders are generally, almost always, depicted in lore as male and thus are males.
(i also think making female and male mauraders would complicate there combat mechanics graphically

2) I seriously doubt gender restricted careers will affect faction balance, at all. You are probably one of the same people who are worried destruction will be overpopulated because it has a lot of really cool looking, less generic, characters.

2)

1. In your opinion. The lore supports both female Chosen and marauders. You have no real argument except "I don't like how they might look" which frankly isn't much of an argument.

2. I disagree. If one side is chock full of gender restricted classes and races with no gender its going to rub people the wrong way. Someone wavering between the two sides will be led to the good side simply because they have freedom of gender with their characters.

I am not worried at all about destruction being overpopular, quite the opposite actually.

Lorik

08-09-2007, 02:31 PM

It all comes down to wives, really.

Those of us with wives are going to be hard pressed to get ours to roll an unfeminine class.

I realize there are exceptions, of course, *insert standard legalese butt-covering*

But seriously. Those magus chicks better be hot-t-t.

BallsOfSteel

08-09-2007, 02:56 PM

I think it would be very, very silly for Mythic to NOT have the witch elves. I mean, there are certain things that I think of when I think of various armies.

- Bretonnia = knights on horses
- Empire = humans with feathery hats and various weapons
- High Elf = Swordmasters and Phoenix guard
- Wood Elf = fruity Legolas-wannabes, oh, and tree-people
- Skaven = rats!
- Chaos = Chosen! Archaon! Hot daemonettes
- Orcs = Orcapult
- So on and so forth = etc etc etc
- Dark Elf = Executioners, and Witch Elves!

I know different people have different thought-processes, and based on exposure to the armies, I'm sure different people have different things pop up into their head, but I'm sure most people will agree that they think of similar things for said armies.

Dark Elves are popular because, partially, of the executioners and witch elves. It's what helps them stand out from the others. The witch elves are hot chicks that rip people apart, lol. And the executioners one-shot people. How is that not awesome? It's the very thing that tempted (lol) me to the Dark Elves when I was deciding which race I wanted to play in the TT.

Thus, I think it would be VERY silly for Mythic to say "there are dark elves!" and then say "but no Witch Elves! lololololol sucks to be you!" I just don't see that happening. My bet? They're trying to make the Witch Elf design so that they're JUST unsexy enough to fit in a T-rating.

I, personally, think they should screw the T-rating and go for M, because Warhammer is much darker than Lord of the Rings or D&D. But that's just me

Illya

08-09-2007, 03:00 PM

this was just pathetic

I am starting to love gender restricted careers, it just pisses some people of so much. It is humorous in a sadistic kind of way.

Well, yay for you.

1) that is not the reason for male only chaos careers. Chosen would look bad, and mauraders are generally, almost always, depicted in lore as male and thus are males.
(i also think making female and male mauraders would complicate there combat mechanics graphically

"Chosen would look bad" is not a fact. It's an opinion, your opinion. I think Father Jack showed that (in my opinion) a female Chosen could be made to look quite awesome. As for Marauders, the only real difference would be a female with a crab claw instead of a male. I'm quite sure you can make a raggedy outfit for a woman covering her naughty bits where the male is bare-chested.

As for combat mechanics, you'll have to explain why you think it'll get more complicated. If it's the same class, I'm quite sure they'd be able to manage using the same animations.

2) I seriously doubt gender restricted careers will affect faction balance, at all. You are probably one of the same people who are worried destruction will be overpopulated because it has a lot of really cool looking, less generic, characters.

I'm not worried about that at all. I want the factions to be more or less balanced, rather than having only the die-hards playing destruction, and EVERYONE else playing Order. It's all about choice. People like to have it. Female-only and male-only classes are restricting your choices.

havik110

08-09-2007, 04:04 PM

So technique, reflexes and dexterity have no part to play in swordsmanship then, right?:rolleyes:
My point was, it's not all about physical strength. Especially when you need to get the first strike... And in fact relying on brute force can often be turned against you.

Strength != ability, skill or prowess

very true. i worded that poorly. I bow to you superior skill at ruining my poorly thought out internet forum thread :D

but being a man i simply pick up a 6 foot long claymore and cut you logical arguement in half with strength...haha I win :twisted:

havik110

08-09-2007, 04:12 PM

I remember before WoW went live and was in closed and open beta and everyone thought Horde was going to "own" Alliance in population numbers. Actual live release and big surprise! the average gamer who never visits sites like this and who are probably 85% of the total population pick the good guys. I expect the same to happen in this game: good humans, dwarves and good elves? Standard fantasy fare. Other side has Orks, always evil, evil humans and evil elves. Obvious who the side is "supposed" to win, right? So I expect the population trend to repeat yet again.

what server? Arthas always had more horde then alliance. WAR doesnt have the beast classes that horde had (aside from orcs, but orc players will always play orcs) the classes are human looking and like you said in an original post people can look at them and see a little of themselves. You cant look at a tauren and see yourself and if you can then you need to cut back on the meals.

i think populations will be fine

Morag

08-09-2007, 05:58 PM

I think it would be very, very silly for Mythic to NOT have the witch elves. I mean, there are certain things that I think of when I think of various armies.

- Dark Elf = Executioners, and Witch Elves!

I know different people have different thought-processes, and based on exposure to the armies, I'm sure different people have different things pop up into their head, but I'm sure most people will agree that they think of similar things for said armies.

Dark Elves are popular because, partially, of the executioners and witch elves. It's what helps them stand out from the others. The witch elves are hot chicks that rip people apart, lol. And the executioners one-shot people. How is that not awesome? It's the very thing that tempted (lol) me to the Dark Elves when I was deciding which race I wanted to play in the TT.

Thus, I think it would be VERY silly for Mythic to say "there are dark elves!" and then say "but no Witch Elves! lololololol sucks to be you!" I just don't see that happening. My bet? They're trying to make the Witch Elf design so that they're JUST unsexy enough to fit in a T-rating.

I, personally, think they should screw the T-rating and go for M, because Warhammer is much darker than Lord of the Rings or D&D. But that's just me

There is no reason why Mythic can't have less restrictive playable careers on launch and not still use Witch Elf npcs in the game.

There are many reasons I can think of why it would be a poor choice to include Witch Elves as one of the four careers at launch when there are several smarter choices that could be made. Also, I think that a teen rating will sell more WAR boxes than a mature rating would.

havik110

08-09-2007, 07:09 PM

There is no reason why Mythic can't have less restrictive playable careers on launch and not still use Witch Elf npcs in the game.

There are many reasons I can think of why it would be a poor choice to include Witch Elves as one of the four careers at launch when there are several smarter choices that could be made. Also, I think that a teen rating will sell more WAR boxes than a mature rating would.

do you want teens playing? Do you want anyone playing whos parents might say no to the game because it gets an M rating. I know i dont...

Illya

08-09-2007, 07:30 PM

Mythic isn't stupid. I'd be very surprised if they made a game rated M. They'd effectively be cutting out a large part of potential customers. When it comes to MMORPG's, the companies (naturally) want as many subscribers as possible.

Also, I doubt having Witch Elves as a PC will make the game M-rated, unless they're nude... which I doubt.

Tonev

08-09-2007, 07:48 PM

do you want teens playing? Do you want anyone playing whos parents might say no to the game because it gets an M rating. I know i dont...

It doesn't make a difference if it's "M" rated or not, most parents that let their kids play MMOS get it to help them baby sit the ADHD,Ritalin drugged up tike just because it keeps them in one place for several hours.

Only problem I can see with a rating is when the conservative types wanna make a fuss as to why "lil Tommy" got the six foot cleaver and killed everyone in the local "7 eleven", then that's when the zle hits the fan for "M" rated games.

Selandri

08-09-2007, 08:01 PM

Which, of course, has nothing to do with the parenting or the social aspects of his life. It's all because Little Tommy picked up A Computer Game that had THE DEVIL in it. The devil made him do it.

It's my excuse for everything.

Morag

08-09-2007, 08:12 PM

do you want teens playing? Do you want anyone playing whos parents might say no to the game because it gets an M rating. I know i dont...

I don't care if teens play or not. People can be stupid, ignorant, and/or assholes regardless of their age.

Aviator

08-09-2007, 08:42 PM

There is no reason why Mythic can't have less restrictive playable careers on launch and not still use Witch Elf npcs in the game.

There are many reasons I can think of why it would be a poor choice to include Witch Elves as one of the four careers at launch when there are several smarter choices that could be made. Also, I think that a teen rating will sell more WAR boxes than a mature rating would.
On the flip side, it would be stupid of Mythic to allow gender restriction, then not take advantage of it by leaving out the most iconic Dark Elf class.

Morag

08-09-2007, 09:39 PM

On the flip side, it would be stupid of Mythic to allow gender restriction, then not take advantage of it by leaving out the most iconic Dark Elf class.

Yeah, normally I'd agree with your point, despite me prefering a different unit to fill the melee dps role. I feel that they will have gone overboard with gender restricted careers if they add another 1-2 for the dark elves though. Especially considering that so far the Order pairing has no restricted careers.

Without going in to all the reasons behind this... I am worried that it cause a larger imbalance between the pairings. For now I think all we can really do is wait and speculate.

Heno

08-09-2007, 09:44 PM

WAR wants light hearted fun and belly laughs among other things. M rating and "Light hearted" just really, REALLY don't get along.

I think teen suits it fine, if they wanted to be darkly serious and depressing (Which would also have worked for the setting, it all depends on the fluff you read or the version you play!), M would suit it better.

Only thing i'll miss is the cussing, but I think i'll dub that in myself :D

Darlos

08-12-2007, 10:52 AM

Hope we don't get Witch Elves...well at the least I hope their breasts aren't too large and they don't wear chainm...Leather Bakini's or immature morons will just be dancing naked in Naggraoth.

I have no problem with Sorcerers been female only, as they don't wear kinky Bakinis and will put a 'small' fration of immature idiots from playing,.

This sounds odd but i'd love Madien Guard as the Helf Melee Tank (I'm male) why? Because it shows females aren't the "damsels in distress" "healers" "Cloth wearers" etc etc but I wouldn't roll one, because I never roll female characters.

Xurré

08-12-2007, 11:20 AM

well at the least I hope their breasts aren't too large ...
You and me both. Though I think that the official art (http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/artwork/images/big-9.jpg) looks quite decent in that regard.

The cinematic is definitely way too much though.

- Xurré

havik110

08-12-2007, 11:39 AM

Hope we don't get Witch Elves...well at the least I hope their breasts aren't too large and they don't wear chainm...Leather Bakini's or immature morons will just be dancing naked in Naggraoth.

stab me in the heart!!!;)

I honestly cant believe the people worrying about playing a female toon. If you dont want to roll a female DPS you have 2 other races for melee DPS. You have the brutish and manly CHOPPAs and the scary marauder. believe me there will not be a problem with #s on the destruction side because of the gender restrictions. If every guy were as worried about playing a female toon then there wouldnt be 3/4 of the female NEs there are in WoW.

I think a few people on this forum are worried about their manliness.

Thrakkesh

08-12-2007, 01:10 PM

One thing about Dark Elves and people that argue 'but then it'd get MATURE" amuse me in one fashion.

Since when did being half-naked = mature? I mean, is there like a functional limit of breasts that can be shown before it crosses the line? WoW has a teen rating and in case you didn't notice, you can strip characters down to almost the essentials--in fact, I'm pretty that you can in most MMO's, and it still manages teen.

I also think there have been plenty of women in low-cut garb in teen rated games.

More to the point. They're glands. Get over it.

Bulwyf

08-12-2007, 01:11 PM

stab me in the heart!!!;)

I honestly cant believe the people worrying about playing a female toon. If you dont want to roll a female DPS you have 2 other races for melee DPS. You have the brutish and manly CHOPPAs and the scary marauder. believe me there will not be a problem with #s on the destruction side because of the gender restrictions. If every guy were as worried about playing a female toon then there wouldnt be 3/4 of the female NEs there are in WoW.

I think a few people on this forum are worried about their manliness.

Or they play the game as seeing their avatar as an extension of themselves in it and obviously do not think playing the wrong gender than their own would fit.

I realize this may come as a shock to the world you live in but not everyone plays games according to the criteria you do. And somehow they avoid throwing insults into an argument to try and prove a point.

For me personally I do not want to play any race but Dark Elf. I would probably play a Cold One Knight or the melee DPS class. I would rather have more options in the one race I want to play rather than being told to go play a race I have zero interest in playing.

I realize you will fail to understand why it makes a difference and that you will probably throw in some more insults. Please try for something more imaginative than perceived threats to manliness. I am positive if you reach down deep enough you can find some e-mom jokes to make.

Darlos

08-12-2007, 01:12 PM

*Stabs Havik110 in the Heart*

I never said I wanted to roll a DPS in-fact i'm going to roll whatever Tank the Dark Elves get.

(This reply was directed to Hav, just 2 people quickly posted a second before I did)

havik110

08-12-2007, 05:51 PM

Or they play the game as seeing their avatar as an extension of themselves in it and obviously do not think playing the wrong gender than their own would fit.

I realize this may come as a shock to the world you live in but not everyone plays games according to the criteria you do. And somehow they avoid throwing insults into an argument to try and prove a point.

For me personally I do not want to play any race but Dark Elf. I would probably play a Cold One Knight or the melee DPS class. I would rather have more options in the one race I want to play rather than being told to go play a race I have zero interest in playing.

I realize you will fail to understand why it makes a difference and that you will probably throw in some more insults. Please try for something more imaginative than perceived threats to manliness. I am positive if you reach down deep enough you can find some e-mom jokes to make.

believe me i wasnt insulting anyone personally. This is the internet and if i want to insult someone on a forum ill do it by name. I just find it humorous that there are people that seem to worry about these things any more. Ive said it before, a game is a game that is meant to be enjoyed but i do worry about people saying a toon is an extension. I pick toons based on aesthetics and function. I have never seen myself as a an orc or a tauren but i played them both along with the undead for 2 years. I eventually went to a night elf when my friends switched servers and factions. You see to me these games are nothing but social experiences on the nights i cant go out.

I can understand that some people play them for other things. You say you dont want to play anything but dark elf. Unfortunately (for you and a few other people on the boards) it seems as though there will be 2 gender restricted classes for the dark elf race.

I dont play warhammer fantasy (i play 40k) but in the game shop i play at there are many fantasy players. You say you prefer corsairs but i have never actually seen any DE player using corsairs. I do see a split between executioners and witch elves however. I commend Mythic for not doing what blizzard does. Blizzard does this better then any other game company ever. It caters to the LCD. People whine that somethings to hard, they make it easier. People complain that warriors are taking too many raid spots, they make bears and palys almost on par with warriors as far as tanking. people complain that shamans are too good in PVP, they give alliance shamans.

WoW has no real lore to follow (they even spit on the lore they had regarding the draenei) Blizzard has stolen both from 40k and fantasy. All they care about is the almighty dollar. Mythic no doubt wants to make money but they will do it while following the lore. Witch elves are the most famous dark elf and dark eldar units in the warhammer universe. To not include them and not make them playable annoys more people (people that play them in table top) then making a few classes gender restrictive.

(this is all my opinion)

You keep pointing to how having a few gender restrictive classes will make an imbalance on the #s. I think this is wrong. I think people pick toons based on aesthetics (like i do ) and not based on an emotional level. either way nothing either of us says will change the game (maybe in an expansion there will be new careers) but im 100% sure the careers are chosen and theres nothing we can say to change it.

You may very well be correct.

In the end i hope im right and we see wyches in 2 weeks as playable.

*Stabs Havik110 in the Heart*

I never said I wanted to roll a DPS in-fact i'm going to roll whatever Tank the Dark Elves get.

(This reply was directed to Hav, just 2 people quickly posted a second before I did)
I dint mean do it for no reason. I meant it because i hear people saying they dont want bouncy boobs in the game. can you imagine where team ninja would be today if that were true of more people. Im pretty sure thats the whole selling point behind dead or alive (its not like its a good fighting game... TEKKEN RULES ALL)

Kellaris

08-12-2007, 06:54 PM

I just find it humorous that there are people that seem to worry about these things any more. Ive said it before, a game is a game that is meant to be enjoyed but i do worry about people saying a toon is an extension. I pick toons based on aesthetics and function.

I belive You know this game clasification. MMORPG. I see that You care only about MMO part. You need to accept, that some people want to play this game becouse of RPG stuff. And RPG is about playing roles.
Some people like to impersonate opposed sex.
Some people like to impersonate opposed sex in real live.
If they feel good with that, no problem. But I don't like doing this.
If I will want to look at some spicy girls, I will buy playboy.
If I will want to look at bouncing boobs, I will play Tomb Raider.
If I will want a good pvp, I will play Battlefield.
If I will want to socialize, I will go for a beer with friends.
(And socializing by internet and impersonating different sex brings me vision of 50 years old, fat man impersonating teenagers to chat with real kids)
I want to play WAR, becouse of RPG part.
There is nothing strange or ill about that, so be worried about Yourself.

Thoden Firehammer

08-12-2007, 07:08 PM

I belive You know this game clasification. MMORPG. I see that You care only about MMO part. You need to accept, that some people want to play this game becouse of RPG stuff. And RPG is about playing roles.
Some people like to impersonate opposed sex.
Some people like to impersonate opposed sex in real live.
If they feel good with that, no problem. But I don't like doing this.
If I will want to look at some spicy girls, I will buy playboy.
If I will want to look at bouncing boobs, I will play Tomb Raider.
If I will want a good pvp, I will play Battlefield.
If I will want to socialize, I will go for a beer with friends.
(And socializing by internet and impersonating different sex brings me vision of 50 years old, fat man impersonating teenagers to chat with real kids)
I want to play WAR, becouse of RPG part.
There is nothing strange or ill about that, so be worried about Yourself.

Agreed, but even if I didn't rp my character would still represent me, from the race I picked to what he looks like, in some way shape or form he will reflect me.

Now when I rp this does not hinder me at all, since I have such a vast personality :P, I can pick several aspects of it and rp with that.

havik110

08-12-2007, 07:42 PM

Truthfully Rpers scare me: as do cosplayers and furrys (yes dressing like a does make you a bad person, no i dont care that its an anime convention). I play a game for the fuction given to me. I join guilds say hey im so and so from whereever, and ive met people from all around Florida because of it and sat down and had pizza with them (i dont drink but they can have the beer).

Have you voiced your concern about the gender restrictive classes to Mythic (either through a phone call, email or even snail mail? cause saying oh this is stupid on a forum does nothing to help you. All you get are jerks like me:D telling you that you are wrong and that my opinion is the only one which matters. I may even throw in "bow to my superiorness (i dont think thats a real word but hey)

now if you hadnt figured it out yet im joking in much of what i say. Once again I will probably have 3 or 4 chars i play. Chosen, wych, zealot, and probably even a witch hunter. I will see what is needed in the guild i join and roll an alt to fill a need.

when people say they see the 50 year old fat man talking to little kids when hes playing a chick toon to talk with kids, thats what i see when i see RPers. plus i teach computers and coach flag football in a middle school. I deal with the little monsters enough that i dont want to talk to them after i leave campus :rolleyes: I said earlier i dont drink but middle schoolers can make me need some alcohol after a while

Bulwyf

08-12-2007, 07:47 PM

Truthfully Rpers scare me: as do cosplayers and furrys (yes dressing like a does make you a bad person, no i dont care that its an anime convention). I play a game for the fuction given to me. I join guilds say hey im so and so from whereever, and ive met people from all around Florida because of it and sat down and had pizza with them (i dont drink but they can have the beer).

Have you voiced your concern about the gender restrictive classes to Mythic (either through a phone call, email or even snail mail? cause saying oh this is stupid on a forum does nothing to help you. All you get are jerks like me:D telling you that you are wrong and that my opinion is the only one which matters. I may even throw in "bow to my superiorness (i dont think thats a real word but hey)

now if you hadnt figured it out yet im joking in much of what i say. Once again I will probably have 3 or 4 chars i play. Chosen, wych, zealot, and probably even a witch hunter. I will see what is needed in the guild i join and roll an alt to fill a need.

when people say they see the 50 year old fat man talking to little kids when hes playing a chick toon, thats what i see when i see RPers.

I have no delusions about dressing up while RPing. I pen and papered RP for many, may years from AD&D TSR fantasy worlds to RIFTS to Robotech, Call of Cthulhu, GURPS, etc. I have always enjoyed some element of that in my MMO play. Just because some people have a hobby you have no interest in (say which looks nerdier? painting toy soldiers and PLAYING WITH THEM AS AN ADULT or dressing up in costume and basically doing nothing more than acting with rules?)

I don't think either is nerdy. Its a hobby. I play Warhammer FB and 40K. I have no interest in how it looks. I also don't dress up when I do RP but I don't think those people care either.

In regards to your other post, I strongly disagree WE are that iconic. Every TT player I know of says Cold One Knights are the most iconic DE unit in FB. Obviously WE would not be iconic in the slightest with Dark Eldar (which I also play).

havik110

08-12-2007, 08:34 PM

meh, wyches vs witch elves, they are essentially the same thing. they die in the open but if they get into melee other people die.

posion blades in fantasy
Agonizer = greatest melee weapon in 40k now that carnite chain axes are gone and so is the man reaper ....

CRAP, nvm about man reaper...all demon weapons now are basically man reapers...new chaos codex ftl

Morag

08-12-2007, 10:06 PM

havik110

08-12-2007, 11:15 PM

Just curious, do you stop to think about what you're saying before you post or do you just let it all spill out with no filter? So far in all your posts in this thread you make blatant generalizations and insults to anyone who is different than you. I don't like roleplaying either, but I don't think that the majority of roleplayers are pedophiles. There is a preview post button for a reason, you may want to consider using it before you post again. You're going to offend a lot of people whether you are aware you are or not.

first off read the whole post. I may be making fun of people but cosplayers deserve it :rolleyes:

next i offer an idea to voice your concerns to the people that matter. in this case write the devs.

finally the last paragraph is written as a specific response to someone.

Here is my problem with this thread. Someone says that such and such as been said, in this case that female only classes for the dark elves/ Some people like it and 2 people dont. But when there are 2 posters who go through great lengths to put very good information up on a class they like and support and then 2 other posters only response is this will cause population imbalances or cold ones are more iconic, or talking about armor or lack there of (in which case a very nice post is up on witch elf armor progression). and it goes back and forth.

in the end its just about what 2 posters want, they want to play DE DPS and they dont care that more people here want to play witch elves. they want to play a "pretty" class while being able to RP being evil i guess. I havent actually seen anywhere were anyone has put in as much thought as to why you would want to play a different Melee DPS class for DE as Xurré has on witch elves. I havent seen any big reason other then you want to be DE, DPS, and Male but no reason behind it other then its what you want, in which case Xurré wins.

Morag

08-13-2007, 12:37 AM

first off read the whole post. I may be making fun of people but cosplayers deserve it :rolleyes:

Yes, I read the whole post. Yes, you may be joking. Normally I just ignore posts like that, but the sheer level of ignorance in those statements compelled me to respond. You may want to read over what you are saying before you hit submit in the future, it can be difficult to convey your tone over an internet forum.

next i offer an idea to voice your concerns to the people that matter. in this case write the devs.

Many, many people have made it abundantly clear to Mythic that they don't like gender specific careers. Hopefully, you are familiar with this (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14531) thread, as it is hardly an unknown issue. Secondly, it is far too late for Mythic to make a change to the Elf careers. It's not like they are going to pick them 5 minutes before they make the announcement at Leipzig, they have been in development for months.

finally the last paragraph is written as a specific response to someone.

Ok, but if you didn't want anyone else to comment on it you should send it in a PM next time.

Here is my problem with this thread. Someone says that such and such as been said, in this case that female only classes for the dark elves/ Some people like it and 2 people dont. But when there are 2 posters who go through great lengths to put very good information up on a class they like and support and then 2 other posters only response is this will cause population imbalances or cold ones are more iconic, or talking about armor or lack there of (in which case a very nice post is up on witch elf armor progression). and it goes back and forth.

So what? Just because someone puts a lot of effort in to making a post doesn't make them right. Also, just because only a couple people bother to respond does not mean that they are the only people who have a different opinion than the person who starts a thread. I hate to be the one that breaks this to you, but we are arguing opinions here. That means no one can be right, no one can be wrong. All you can do is present a compelling enough argument that you sway someone to your side. You may agree with the people in favor of Witch Elves, but that doesn't make it the only correct view point. Ultimately, the classes are already decided on and all we can do is speculate and discuss what we think until we know what the actual facts are.

in the end its just about what 2 posters want, they want to play DE DPS and they dont care that more people here want to play witch elves. they want to play a "pretty" class while being able to RP being evil i guess. I havent actually seen anywhere were anyone has put in as much thought as to why you would want to play a different Melee DPS class for DE as Xurré has on witch elves. I havent seen any big reason other then you want to be DE, DPS, and Male but no reason behind it other then its what you want, in which case Xurré wins.

Wow, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. It is not about what "2 posters want". This forum is a very small sample of a small community of people following a game through it's development process. You have no idea what the majority of the people who will actually end up playing the game will want. Not only that, but you are falling back on making generalizations again.

I want to play the Dark Elf melee dps class, I don't want to have to have a female avatar. I like Executioners way more than I like Witch Elves. I want to kill people with a huge sword and I don't want to wear a chainmail bikini and have idiots hit on me. Guess what, Xurré wants to play a Witch Elf because they are frenzied killing machines (among other things), she likes them the most out of all the available units. So why are you telling me her opinion is more valid than mine? Just because she made some posts detailing why she thinks Witch Elves should be in? Sorry, but that's not how it works. Anyways, I could go on and on about just how wrong I think you are, but I think I wrote enough for now.

*disclaimer* Xurré, if you happen to read this: I hope you don't mind me using you as an example here (well, technically havik110 brought you up). I happen to think your threads have been well thought out and informative. I appreciate the effort you put into them and I respect your opinion.

Kellaris

08-13-2007, 02:54 AM

Once again I will probably have 3 or 4 chars i play. Chosen, wych, zealot, and probably even a witch hunter. I will see what is needed in the guild i join and roll an alt to fill a need.

Just to add to Morag post.
I do not have time to play 4 characters. I have time to play one. So I will choose character that suits Me best. Dark Elf in this game.
Even if 50% of DE population will wear chainmal bikinis, which is not exactly my vision of Dark Elves.

kharnage

08-13-2007, 03:03 AM

Having witch elves is so awesome!!! This game is going to rock!!

I love the fact that GW and Mythic aren't scared to make the tough choices. While I don't agree with everything that they've done, I think they have really worked hard to make this a truly awesome game.

Most people (I believe) are like me and don't agree with every single choice they have made, but that doesn't mean it's not going to be the best game out there.

I've been waiting for a Warhammer MMO for so long. Mythic has done a great job. I have no problem with sex restricted classes.

If nothing else, it gives people something to discuss until the game comes out!!;)

Viva La Witch Elves!!!!!!!!!

Fr0

08-13-2007, 03:35 AM

Either they got smart about sorceresses, and removed the male models or are getting Witch Elves...

Xurré

08-13-2007, 03:44 AM

*disclaimer* Xurré, if you happen to read this: I hope you don't mind me using you as an example here (well, technically havik110 brought you up). I happen to think your threads have been well thought out and informative. I appreciate the effort you put into them and I respect your opinion.
No problem there, Morag. And I know that we’re all chomping at the bits here.

Beyond that my opinion is of course more valid than yours. :p

Even if 50% of DE population will wear chainmal bikinis, which is not exactly my vision of Dark Elves.
You are aware, of course, that 87.23% of all statistics are made up on the spot, right? ;)

- Xurré

The Masked Prince

08-13-2007, 03:49 AM

Xurré

08-13-2007, 04:52 AM

No problem with witche elves being females only.

But making sorcerer females only when they can make it with both gender...
Big big mistake.
I hope we still get the male model,
otherwise we won't have lots of elves caster in destruction wich will be more under populated.
I don’t see the link between “sorceresses female only” and “won’t have lots of elf casters in destruction”.

Simply because some people are unwilling to play female characters doesn’t mean that the numbers will be significantly less.

I’m guessing that the percentages of dark elf players playing sorceresses, whether they’re female only or not, will be roughly equal to the number of players for any race’s career filling the same role.

- Xurré

The Masked Prince

08-13-2007, 05:33 AM

I don’t see the link between “sorceresses female only” and “won’t have lots of elf casters in destruction”.

Simply because some people are unwilling to play female characters doesn’t mean that the numbers will be significantly less.

I’m guessing that the percentages of dark elf players playing sorceresses, whether they’re female only or not, will be roughly equal to the number of players for any race’s career filling the same role.

- Xurré

I again disagree with you Xurré, sorry.

Some people wants to play a male above all,
if they see they cannot play a male sorcerer elf when that's the class and the race they want to play, they will either be a chaos magus, or an order magus if they still want to play that class.

What is almost sure, is that it will under populate dark elves mage class, and out number chaos magus or order magus.
Maybe not too much, but still a little.

I don't think female sorceress only will make this class more attractive...

Darlos

08-13-2007, 05:37 AM

Havik I fail to see how dressing up like a Orc or Elf or whatever at a convention makes you a bad person (I wouldn't dare do it in a million years but still) you insult Roleplayers and people who don't like a certain thing you do because you think "Only my opinion counts, everyone who disagrees sucks"

Mature a bit and come back to these forums.

Pan

08-13-2007, 05:41 AM

I again disagree with you Xurré, sorry.

Some people wants to play a male above all,
if they see they cannot play a male sorcerer elf when that's the class and the race they want to play, they will either be a chaos magus, or an order magus if they still want to play that class.

What is almost sure, is that it will under populate dark elves mage class, and out number chaos magus or order magus.
Maybe not too much, but still a little.

I don't think female sorceress only will make this class more attractive...

This may be a problem on rp servers but I doubt it will be on normal servers.

havik110

08-13-2007, 06:00 AM

I want to play the Dark Elf melee dps class, I don't want to have to have a female avatar. I like Executioners way more than I like Witch Elves. I want to kill people with a huge sword and I don't want to wear a chainmail bikini and have idiots hit on me. Guess what, Xurré wants to play a Witch Elf because they are frenzied killing machines (among other things), she likes them the most out of all the available units. So why are you telling me her opinion is more valid than mine? Just because she made some posts detailing why she thinks Witch Elves should be in? Sorry, but that's not how it works. Anyways, I could go on and on about just how wrong I think you are, but I think I wrote enough for now.

*disclaimer* Xurré, if you happen to read this: I hope you don't mind me using you as an example here (well, technically havik110 brought you up). I happen to think your threads have been well thought out and informative. I appreciate the effort you put into them and I respect your opinion.

Usually when someone wants to prove a point or bring someone over to their side they write an argument. the the argument they write how here is one side and they give evidence as to why this side is right, then they go to the other side and tell you why this side will send you straight to hell.

Xurre has gone through the trouble of writing posts that are well thought out and very well researched. On the subject of witch elves she should now be considered the board expert. I have seen no such posts on executioners or corsairs and so they have no expert as of right now. Take some time to research whichever class youd like so you can be its expert on the board. Because in the real world an experts opinions would mean more then some random guy off the streets opinion.

Havik I fail to see how dressing up like a Orc or Elf or whatever at a convention makes you a bad person (I wouldn't dare do it in a million years but still) you insult Roleplayers and people who don't like a certain thing you do because you think "Only my opinion counts, everyone who disagrees sucks"

Mature a bit and come back to these forums.
read the entire post. Then look backwards. the entire tone of the post was joking (but i still got reported for it) but i guess we have some sensitive people on the boards...i apologize.

Just to add to Morag post.
I do not have time to play 4 characters. I have time to play one. So I will choose character that suits Me best. Dark Elf in this game.
Even if 50% of DE population will wear chainmal bikinis, which is not exactly my vision of Dark Elves.
I dont think youd call what sorceresses wear a chain bikini. they wear long robes on top of what i would think is a breast plate. and a cool hat. I use one for my dark eldar archon. He has a punisher instead of the staff but it gets the point across...

Kellaris

08-13-2007, 06:00 AM

You are aware, of course, that 87.23% of all statistics are made up on the spot, right? ;)
- Xurré
Sure. I wouldn't even call it statistics. Just a rough estimation.
If we assume that every class get equal shere in population (25%) and we will have 2 chainmal bikini restricted (witch and sorceress which may be silk bikini but still bikini or sth similiar), then about 50% of Druchii will be wearing bikini(and about 50% of the rest will be females in different outfit).
I can easly understand the bikini logic. After all, they are going to vacations to a nice southern island.;)
But what is cool on the vacations, may be boring on long-term.

Hatemonger

08-13-2007, 06:17 AM

This may be a problem on rp servers but I doubt it will be on normal servers.

Not really. It's a simple aesthetic choice, and that applies to everyone. Not just roleplayers. I don't roleplay, but I'm still not going to play a female character, so any class that requires me to do so will not be appealing in the lease.

havik110

08-13-2007, 06:33 AM

Not really. It's a simple aesthetic choice, and that applies to everyone. Not just roleplayers. I don't roleplay, but I'm still not going to play a female character, so any class that requires me to do so will not be appealing in the lease.

i wish i could track ip's but thats OT...you simply dont have to play a DE female and your problem is solved.

At this point the "i like this class" and the "i dont want to play as a girl" thing keeps going back and forth. who will win? place your bets

Xurré

08-13-2007, 06:33 AM

Some people wants to play a male above all,
if they see they cannot play a male sorcerer elf when that's the class and the race they want to play, they will either be a chaos magus, or an order magus if they still want to play that class.
First, I never said it wouldn’t make a difference, I said it wouldn’t make a significant difference (i.e. the difference wouldn’t be that big). Simply because there are a few less people (on every server) playing the class doesn’t constitute a major imbalance (or even a minor one).

Secondly, I’m sure some people want to play male characters above all, but equally there are also people who want to play female characters above all (a fair number of them male in real life, I’m sure). One population cancels out the other.

Third, by far the majority of people won’t really care one way or the other; they’ll just play what’s there and what they think is fun regardless of gender.

I’m all for options, don’t get me wrong. But in the end a male Sorcerer would play exactly the same as a female Sorceress… and that’s what most players primarily care about.

Different people have (very) different tastes, and a large number of them would want to play dark elves.

This may be a problem on rp servers but I doubt it will be on normal servers.
I actually think it’s the other way around. Roleplayers tends to be a lot less hung up on gender. After all, for roleplayers it’s all just about playing another characters, being very aware that it’s not you. It’s usually the people who don’t roleplay who have issues with gender restrictions (“I just play myself” being a common one).

Sure. I wouldn't even call it statistics. Just a rough estimation.
If we assume that every class get equal shere in population (25%) and we will have 2 chainmal bikini restricted (witch and sorceress which may be silk bikini but still bikini or sth similiar), then about 50% of Druchii will be wearing bikini(and about 50% of the rest will be females in different outfit).
I can easly understand the bikini logic. After all, they are going to vacations to a nice southern island.;)
But what is cool on the vacations, may be boring on long-term.
Sorceresses and Witch Elves look quite different (at least they will be if they’re both in). While “chainmail bikini” is part of the Witch Elf ‘style’ for Sorceresses it is not. I expect the Sorceress to look more like this (http://www.coolminiornot.com/67961), fairly wrapped in robes. Also keep in mind that if they do include male Sorcerers then they need to have a similar style of dress (like this (http://www.coolminiornot.com/70111)).

Besides that, though I don’t agree some people above have seemingly argued that people tend to stick to their gender preference. According to that logic the gender balance of a race will remain roughly the same either way (and you’ll get a vast majority of male characters one way or the other).

Anyway, I don’t see any reason to assume that just because Witch Elves might be a player career would mean about half the dark elf characters will be wearing bikinis. Witches might be popular (which is a good reason to include them), but not that popular.

- Xurré

Hatemonger

08-13-2007, 06:36 AM

i wish i could track ip's but thats OT...you simply dont have to play a DE female and your problem is solved.

At this point the "i like this class" and the "i dont want to play as a girl" thing keeps going back and forth. who will win? place your bets

I have no idea what you're talking about. Track Ip's? OT?

Personally, I don't plan on playing DE at all, let alone a female one at all. I was just responding to your post saying that it was a roleplayer's issue, which was just wrong. :mad:

Kellaris

08-13-2007, 07:01 AM

Sorceresses and Witch Elves look quite different (at least they will be if they’re both in). While “chainmail bikini” is part of the Witch Elf ‘style’ for Sorceresses it is not. I expect the Sorceress to look more like this (http://www.coolminiornot.com/67961), fairly wrapped in robes. Also keep in mind that if they do include male Sorcerers then they need to have a similar style of dress (like this (http://www.coolminiornot.com/70111)).
- Xurré
You have very old miniature here.
More recent ones (this (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99060212058&orignav=13) and this (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99060212051&orignav=13))are much less ...eee... covered.
Also, You may look fore some Warcry CCG Sorceress drawings. They are quite nice, but I don't have any link.

Besides that, though I don’t agree some people above have seemingly argued that people tend to stick to their gender preference. According to that logic the gender balance of a race will remain roughly the same either way (and you’ll get a vast majority of male characters one way or the other).
- Xurré
Correct, if they are DE fans. If they are MMO elf caster fans, they will find another option, not Dark Elf.

Anyway, I don’t see any reason to assume that just because Witch Elves might be a player career would mean about half the dark elf characters will be wearing bikinis. Witches might be popular (which is a good reason to include them), but not that popular.
- Xurré
To be more specific, I was refering to idea of 2 gender specific classes (Witch and Sorceress). If there will be Witch only, it will be much less painful

First, I never said it wouldn’t make a difference, I said it wouldn’t make a significant difference (i.e. the difference wouldn’t be that big). Simply because there are a few less people (on every server) playing the class doesn’t constitute a major imbalance (or even a minor one).
- Xurré
We have absolutely no data about it. It may be few people. It may make 10% or 20% of population. This is guessing only, but even 10% will make a difference (being otnumbered 60 to 40 is ok, but 70 to 30 is tragedy)

Secondly, I’m sure some people want to play male characters above all, but equally there are also people who want to play female characters above all (a fair number of them male in real life, I’m sure). One population cancels out the other.
- Xurré
Noone is suggesting male only classes here. Any female avatar lover may play corsair or sorceress or Dread Knight or whatever.

Seldaren

08-13-2007, 07:14 AM

You have very old miniature here.
More recent ones (this and this)are much less ...eee... covered.

That first one is Morathi, she's a bit of a special case. She's a Witch Elf and a Sorceress. So you can't really use her as an example.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/miniature-gallery/2/

That's where the Sorc minis are. One is the mounted one you showed, and the other is non-mounted. I would expect the WAR Sorceresses to look like the non-mounted ones. Robes and all, but a somewhat revealing neckline.

havik110

08-13-2007, 07:31 AM

http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99060212037&orignav=13
this is the one from the normal blister.

here is why DE Melee DPS will not be executioners. Executioners are male only correct? that would mean that all 3 melee DPS careers on the destruction side would be male only. The people that want Executioners what to keep women from playing DPS on side of destruction (way to be mean to the ladies :rolleyes:)<---this smiley means that i am joking, if you are in any way offended by what i said i apoligize profuesly in advance. I know there are some sensitive people on this board.

Here is my final position on this topic. It is a rhetorical question, just think about it, you dont really need to answer (but i know some of you will:roll:.)
Do you think that mythic would make the decisions they have about gender exclusive careers if they thought it was going to hurt their bottom line? This is a business and its about making money first, making the best game ever 2nd. Do you think that they would make chosen and marauders male only and sorceresses and witch elves female only if they thought for a second that they would lose money over it?

You have very old miniature here.
More recent ones (this (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99060212058&orignav=13) and this (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99060212051&orignav=13))are much less ...eee... covered.
Also, You may look fore some Warcry CCG Sorceress drawings. They are quite nice, but I don't have any link. ive never actually seen that one. If i thought it could stand on its own shed have a splinter pistol modded to one of her hands and shed be in with the Dark eldar. Man now im gonna have to order one and see about modding it...I can probably by the bits and not the entire blister...

Grimfell Gromgear

08-13-2007, 07:52 AM

Do you think that mythic would make the decisions they have about gender exclusive careers if they thought it was going to hurt their bottom line? This is a business and its about making money first, making the best game ever 2nd. Do you think that they would make chosen and marauders male only and sorceresses and witch elves female only if they thought for a second that they would lose money over it?

That being said... I think Mythic would've made more money if they'd gone with male/female chosen male/female marauders and female only witch elves.

Or shall we say... they certainly wouldn't have made less money than they would've with the current decisions, and at least had the possible potential to make more.

So... perhaps the 'Perfectly Logical' Mythic argument isn't the best one ones in my opinion... (not saying it won't be witch elves... just saying Mythic may be thinking with their wallets but may not know the best way to do it, and someone up top might think a 'boys game' will sell... who knows.)

Xurré

08-13-2007, 08:08 AM

You have very old miniature here.
More recent ones (this (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99060212058&orignav=13) and this (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99060212051&orignav=13))are much less ...eee... covered.
Also, You may look fore some Warcry CCG Sorceress drawings. They are quite nice, but I don't have any link.
Actually, as has been pointed out, that miniature is, as I understand it, the model for current dark elf Sorceresses. There’s a great piece of art for it too, the best version I could find of which is here (http://www.clubnoega.com/imagenes/citadel/Morathi.jpg).

One of your examples is Morathi (interesting, since the current model actually used to be Morathi in the older versions) who is part Witch Elf as well. As for the other… I always wondered why you’d want to put a Sorceress on a Cold One. :p

Seriously though. There’s really two styles you can go with Sorceresses… and if one of those already exist in another class then you take the other (which is also far more mage-y).

To be more specific, I was refering to idea of 2 gender specific classes (Witch and Sorceress). If there will be Witch only, it will be much less painful
At the moment I see no reason to assume that Sorceresses will be male-only. Mythic has noted that they have the ok from GW to do male Sorcerers. Though it should also be noted that it wasn’t specifically about player careers (and, in fact, could just as easily be just in relation to NPCs).

Noone is suggesting male only classes here. Any female avatar lover may play corsair or sorceress or Dread Knight or whatever.
The suggestion was that people who’d want to play destruction male magic user would play Chaos (or Greenskins) instead. I was countering that by, more or less, saying that those who want to play destruction female magic user would play Dark Elves (or Chaos).

That kinda gets back to the whole “balancing of gender restricted careers” argument. If gender indeed plays such a big part in population then having two male-only Chaos careers requires to female-only Dark Elf careers or Chaos won’t be popular enough (and everyone will be playing Dark Elves). And no, I don’t believe that argument, but it makes about as much sense as saying that a female-only career will make that race underpopulated.

Executioners are male only correct?
I’m actually not sure. I didn’t think so, but I’ve been wrong in that sort of thing before. And as I understand they do seem to be fairly Khaine-aspect types and Khaine being male and all that…).

Do you think that mythic would make the decisions they have about gender exclusive careers if they thought it was going to hurt their bottom line? This is a business and its about making money first, making the best game ever 2nd. Do you think that they would make chosen and marauders male only and sorceresses and witch elves female only if they thought for a second that they would lose money over it?
No.

Oh, sorry, rhetorical question. ;)

- Xurré

havik110

08-13-2007, 08:13 AM

2 people have already answered the rhetorical question. :D

Heno

08-13-2007, 08:14 AM

That being said... I think Mythic would've made more money if they'd gone with male/female chosen male/female marauders and female only witch elves.

Or shall we say... they certainly wouldn't have made less money than they would've with the current decisions, and at least had the possible potential to make more.

Thay'd have had to spend time making those female models. So you could well argue they would have lost money.

Noli me Tangere

08-13-2007, 08:18 AM

Xurre has gone through the trouble of writing posts that are well thought out and very well researched. On the subject of witch elves she should now be considered the board expert. I have seen no such posts on executioners or corsairs and so they have no expert as of right now. Take some time to research whichever class youd like so you can be its expert on the board. Because in the real world an experts opinions would mean more then some random guy off the streets opinion.There's something, do the research make your well thought out opinion well stated.. not just "This is dumb/sucks" or "This rocks/whatever" .. Xurre's made intelligent and well thought out posts. If someone's really for a class, or it being a certain way.. they could just as well make that much of a dedication.

I again disagree with you Xurré, sorry.

Some people wants to play a male above all,
if they see they cannot play a male sorcerer elf when that's the class and the race they want to play, they will either be a chaos magus, or an order magus if they still want to play that class.

You know, this was the same argument made to include female classes in chaos, by some. And I notice some of the same people that were for male only careers, are against female only careers (not being specific here) it just ..sort of is funny.

What is almost sure, is that it will under populate dark elves mage class, and out number chaos magus or order magus.The same argument could be made against male only careers. Some people only want to play females. The end all be all thing people that wanted female chaos classes were told was essentially "Deal, and get over wanting to play a specific gender."

I'm not for that line of thinking. Deal. As it were, just doesn't sit right with me.

Grimfell Gromgear

08-13-2007, 08:32 AM

Thay'd have had to spend time making those female models. So you could well argue they would have lost money.

True, maybe their statistical analysis is even deeper than I thought...

Selendor

08-13-2007, 08:34 AM

I think part of the reason you don't see as much frenzied argument in favor of classes that aren't Witch Elves is because the opponents of that particular class are really willing to play just about anything else.

One of the very common ones is the Dark Elf soldier. A lot of people would be happy playing a Corsair, a Cold One Knight, a Black Guard, a Noble, etc.

Another one is the Khainite warrior. They'd rather have Executioners, Assassins, Devotees of Khaine, Shades, whatever.

The bottom line is that when it comes to Dark Elf fighters, you have your traditional Dark Elves, and then you have your Witch Elves, which fly in the face of everything typical Dark Elf fighters are about. People that like the former category tend to like a wide variety of Dark Elf units. I like the entire army, but Witch Elves are the one career I would never play as a main, and not because they're female. Obviously I'm not going to put int 20x as much work as Witch Elf fans, and come up with a long detailed post with reasoning for why each one would be better than Witch Elves. And I'm not going to champion one unit over another, because I honestly don't think Corsairs are any more suited than Assassins. The only reason I even toss my two cents in once in a while is because my thoughts on the DPS slot is, quite simply...anything but Witch Elves. Hasn't it occured to you that the reason Xurre has had to argue so hard for Witch Elves is because there's a lot of opposition to the idea?

Also, if you're looking for people that have made equally good points in favor of non-Witch Elf careers, I suggest you look at posts by Estebar and Ilairon on this forum.

Heno

08-13-2007, 08:39 AM

Hasn't it occured to you that the reason Xurre has had to argue so hard for Witch Elves is because there's a lot of opposition to the idea?

I'd actually think it's because Xurre is nuts in the head for Witch Elves and just likes talking about how awesome they are.

Bulwyf

08-13-2007, 08:52 AM

i wish i could track ip's but thats OT...you simply dont have to play a DE female and your problem is solved.

At this point the "i like this class" and the "i dont want to play as a girl" thing keeps going back and forth. who will win? place your bets

Why do you want to track IP's? Think someone is using dummy account on here or something?

Just a FYI: we've been having the "BUT I WANT THIS!" vs "I DON'T WANNA BE A GIRL!" debate for Dark Elves for well over a year. As it is simply a matter of opinion no one will "win".

Heno

08-13-2007, 08:54 AM

Why do you want to track IP's? Think someone is using dummy account on here or something?

Just a FYI: we've been having the "BUT I WANT THIS!" vs "I DON'T WANNA BE A GIRL!" debate for Dark Elves for well over a year. As it is simply a matter of opinion no one will "win".

Actually there'll be a winner when the classes are annouced. After all, they can't do everything :D

Bulwyf

08-13-2007, 08:58 AM

Actually there'll be a winner when the classes are annouced. After all, they can't do everything :D

No, there will be simply be one side that Mythic agreed with for now. Are people who think there should be female Chosen and Marauders wrong in their opinion because Mythic disagreed?

Zoatibix

08-13-2007, 09:12 AM

Kellaris

08-13-2007, 09:14 AM

Actually, as has been pointed out, that miniature is, as I understand it, the model for current dark elf Sorceresses. There’s a great piece of art for it too, the best version I could find of which is here (http://www.clubnoega.com/imagenes/citadel/Morathi.jpg).

One of your examples is Morathi (interesting, since the current model actually used to be Morathi in the older versions) who is part Witch Elf as well. As for the other… I always wondered why you’d want to put a Sorceress on a Cold One. :p
- Xurré
I don't show what they ride. I try to show what they wear (http://sabertoothgames.com/warcry/files/desktops/sod_terror_1280.jpg).
And Your example and art is still the same miniature. The oldest miniature design You can buy for Dark Elves. At least 2 editions old. All recent arts are bikini style. Look at DE Armybook, p. 1, 16, 59. Also 26 i think. And Morathi may be the first of the hags, but in TT she is Sorceress, not a Witch.

At the moment I see no reason to assume that Sorceresses will be male-only. Mythic has noted that they have the ok from GW to do male Sorcerers. Though it should also be noted that it wasn’t specifically about player careers (and, in fact, could just as easily be just in relation to NPCs).
- Xurré
I see no reasons also. But there are some rumors about it.

The suggestion was that people who’d want to play destruction male magic user would play Chaos (or Greenskins) instead. I was countering that by, more or less, saying that those who want to play destruction female magic user would play Dark Elves (or Chaos).
- Xurré
Well, my sugestion is different. I was talking about people wisching to play Elf spellcasters. No matter Dark or High. If there will be no male Dark Elf, they may choose HE.

That kinda gets back to the whole “balancing of gender restricted careers” argument. If gender indeed plays such a big part in population then having two male-only Chaos careers requires to female-only Dark Elf careers or Chaos won’t be popular enough (and everyone will be playing Dark Elves). And no, I don’t believe that argument, but it makes about as much sense as saying that a female-only career will make that race underpopulated.
- Xurré
This means 4 restricted carrers for destruction and 0 for order. Prefect balance ;)
Please understand this: We need not care too much about DE Chaos population balance. Order/Destruction balance is what we should think about.

Heno

08-13-2007, 09:23 AM

No, there will be simply be one side that Mythic agreed with for now. Are people who think there should be female Chosen and Marauders wrong in their opinion because Mythic disagreed?

We're talking about our opinions of what will be the best choice for the classes.

They're not gonna pick two classes to do the same thing, or redo them all over again. There will be people in the right or wrong. The winners will be those who get thier pick in, and the losers the ones who don't.

There weren't really any winners for the Female Chosen/MArauder (Did anyone argue against it?) but there's a few other reasons why they didn't get done anyway.

This means 4 restricted carrers for destruction and 0 for order. Prefect balance
Please understand this: We need not care too much about DE Chaos population balance. Order/Destruction balance is what we should think about.

Why? Who says they have to be balanced? As long as the pops are balanced they don't need to split gender restricitons amongst the two sides. We're not playing mirrors sides in this game.

Noli me Tangere

08-13-2007, 09:23 AM

This means 4 restricted carrers for destruction and 0 for order. Prefect balance ;)
Please understand this: We need not care too much about DE Chaos population balance. Order/Destruction balance is what we should think about.

Mythic don't seem at all interested in giving gender restricted classes to order, even where highly appropriate. Though they seem very interested in giving gender restricted classes to destruction, even where not appropriate (Only where not appropriate, in fact, as far as what's been made official as of this post).

That doesn't tell me that they're terribly worried about what gender restrictions, and lack thereof, will do to order/destruction balance.

Bulwyf

08-13-2007, 09:28 AM

We're talking about our opinions of what will be the best choice for the classes.

They're not gonna pick two classes to do the same thing, or redo them all over again. There will be people in the right or wrong. The winners will be those who get thier pick in, and the losers the ones who don't.

There weren't really any winners for the Female Chosen/MArauder (Did anyone argue against it?) but there's a few other reasons why they didn't get done anyway.

Again, there is no possible way to say one is right or wrong as factual when dealing in matters of opinion. If for instance I say Executioners are the perfect choice for melee DPS and Mythic goes with Corsairs how does that alter my opinion? It does not. It simply makes it one that Mythic did not agree with.

Heno

08-13-2007, 09:31 AM

Again, there is no possible way to say one is right or wrong as factual when dealing in matters of opinion. If for instance I say Executioners are the perfect choice for melee DPS and Mythic goes with Corsairs how does that alter my opinion? It does not. It simply makes it one that Mythic did not agree with.

We were arguing winners and losers, not right or wrong.

If I wanted Corsairs and they got in, I won (Because I got my way). If they didn't I lost (Because I didn't get my way, well unless I was willign to hedge my bets and hope for other classes too :D).

Bulwyf

08-13-2007, 09:34 AM

We were arguing winners and losers, not right or wrong.

If I wanted Corsairs and they got in, I won (Because I got my way). If they didn't I lost (Because I didn't get my way, well unless I was willign to hedge my bets and hope for other classes too :D).

I think we are arguing semantics at this point but to me that is the same thing as right or wrong. No one here has a financial interest in what decision Mythic goes with so there is no way for one side to win or to lose. Mythic will at some point probably add expansion classes that will include what popular classes did not make the list so there is no way of knowing if one side "won" or not unless we have a cyrstal ball to use. ;)

Zoatibix

08-13-2007, 09:38 AM

The foot sorceress is still a current figure and is much more commonly seen in Dark Elf Armies...three Sorceress figures and you chose not to link the most popular one. Tut-tut.

Heck, I even have a slightly converted one leading the Kabal of Beautiful Agony.

It has much more detail than the other two figures, and I think if far more likely they will use it as a template for the female Sorcerers than the pictures in the DE Army Book.

Selendor

08-13-2007, 10:07 AM

Estebar caved in, iirc. He got the bikini and everything. :D

Xurre has argued at lot because the anti-WE brigade by and large simply refuse to accept her arguments. Short arguments were dismissed as unworkable. While detailed arguments were dismissed a 'walls of text.'

Estebar came to grips with the fact that Mythic including Witch Elves as melee DPS was a very good possibility at this point. I still think he'd prefer other careers for that slot, but I'll let him speak for himself.

Just because people don't roll over and say "Oh, wow, now I see it! Witch Elves are the perfect career!" doesn't mean that they're ignoring the arguments. They've heard them, and they still prefer something else. It all comes down to opinion.

The arguments for Witch Elves have only shown that they 'could' be a playable career. It's not impossible to do, they would fit, and the female only thing isn't a big deal. However, with the exception of the Executioner, none of the other candidates even need to explain how they could work in their slots.

So the argument on the table is once again, what is the best choice for Dark Elf DPS? Not the one that works, because they all do - even Executioners, and if you don't believe me, I'll make a topic devoted to explaining why and how the should/could be included.

The bottom line is, you can't answer what the best career is. In terms of combat prowess, the Assassin wins hands down. What people are arguing about, for the most part, is opinion. You can argue that Witch Elves would work just as well as any other unit for the melee DPS slot, but you can't say they're the best choice, and act like it's fact.

I'm not trying to be rude. It's just that lately there's been a lot of statements along the lines of "I feel like I've proven this time and time again" and "none of the arguments against Witch Elves have held up", etc. As if to say that if the Corsair fans would stop being children and listen to logic, surely they would see that Witch Elves are without doubt the best unit for melee DPS. And all we're doing is stating that there are a number of units we would rather see in.

Fun you f***ers! :-P

Morag

08-13-2007, 12:01 PM

Wow, almost three pages since I posted last night. This is gonna be a long one!

Having witch elves is so awesome!!!

I must have missed the part where Witch Elves are confirmed.

Beyond that my opinion is of course more valid than yours. :p

The ol' "it's true because I said so" argument, damn you and your logic!

Usually when someone wants to prove a point or bring someone over to their side they write an argument. the the argument they write how here is one side and they give evidence as to why this side is right, then they go to the other side and tell you why this side will send you straight to hell.

Xurre has gone through the trouble of writing posts that are well thought out and very well researched. On the subject of witch elves she should now be considered the board expert. I have seen no such posts on executioners or corsairs and so they have no expert as of right now. Take some time to research whichever class youd like so you can be its expert on the board. Because in the real world an experts opinions would mean more then some random guy off the streets opinion.

If you read any of my other posts at all you would know that the view I am behind is that despite everyones opinion we just don't know which classes are in. I am not trying to convince anyone that Executioners should be the melee dps class, I am trying to convince people not to jump to conclusions. There is no way I would argue in favor of Executioners being in because I don't believe that they have any better chance than any of the other units in the TT game.

read the entire post. Then look backwards. the entire tone of the post was joking (but i still got reported for it) but i guess we have some sensitive people on the boards...i apologize.

Maybe, no one can tell just from reading your text. Also, I hardly think that people are overly sensitive because they don't like being called pedophiles (among the other things said in your posts). You probably won't win any more friends by calling them overly sensitive either.

i wish i could track ip's but thats OT...you simply dont have to play a DE female and your problem is solved.

I still don't understand why you find it hard to believe that not everyone agrees with you. Feel free to ask a mod to verify my ip, I have no problems proving this is my only account.

here is why DE Melee DPS will not be executioners. Executioners are male only correct? that would mean that all 3 melee DPS careers on the destruction side would be male only. The people that want Executioners what to keep women from playing DPS on side of destruction (way to be mean to the ladies :rolleyes:)<---this smiley means that i am joking, if you are in any way offended by what i said i apoligize profuesly in advance. I know there are some sensitive people on this board.

I have not read anywhere that Executioners are male only. It's possible they are, but I have never seen it mentioned. So, besides being wrong about that you also obviously have not read any of my other posts. Otherwise, you would know that I am firmly against Chosen and Marauders being male only, as well as being against the inclusion of Assassins because they are equally gender restrictive. However, I am not offended, it is going to take a lot more than some random person on an internet forum to offend me. Also, there's the "sensitive people" insult again. If you have already been reported you might want to cool it with anything that could get one of the mods on you.

Here is my final position on this topic. It is a rhetorical question, just think about it, you dont really need to answer (but i know some of you will:roll:.) Do you think that mythic would make the decisions they have about gender exclusive careers if they thought it was going to hurt their bottom line? This is a business and its about making money first, making the best game ever 2nd. Do you think that they would make chosen and marauders male only and sorceresses and witch elves female only if they thought for a second that they would lose money over it?

Mythic has stated that their number one priority has always been "make a great game". If you read any of Mark's old posts you would see he is against a number of things that would make Mythic more money but would detract from the overall game. Likewise, if they feel that certain decisions would make this game better then they will make them, despite me or others disagreeing. It is their game after all, they are the ones designing it, not me.

I think part of the reason you don't see as much frenzied argument in favor of classes that aren't Witch Elves is because the opponents of that particular class are really willing to play just about anything else...

...Also, if you're looking for people that have made equally good points in favor of non-Witch Elf careers, I suggest you look at posts by Estebar and Ilairon on this forum.

I pretty much agree with your whole post.

Xurre has argued at lot because the anti-WE brigade by and large simply refuse to accept her arguments. Short arguments were dismissed as unworkable. While detailed arguments were dismissed a 'walls of text.'

Witch Elves do not fly in the face of Druchii Warfare. The epitomise it. The lust of blood and killing. Be swift and devestating. Pick your fight and hope to kill the enemy before they can strike back. Read the sig.

Really? And here I thought I was right and you guys just simply refused to accept my arguments! The truth is some people just don't like them and no amount of well constructed posting is going to change their opinion.

Maybe what you said in your second paragraph makes you think of Witch Elves. To me it sounds a lot like Assassins.

kharnage

08-13-2007, 02:22 PM

I don’t see the link between “sorceresses female only” and “won’t have lots of elf casters in destruction”.

Simply because some people are unwilling to play female characters doesn’t mean that the numbers will be significantly less.

I’m guessing that the percentages of dark elf players playing sorceresses, whether they’re female only or not, will be roughly equal to the number of players for any race’s career filling the same role.

- Xurré

That's what I've been saying about male chaos Chosen and maurauders. People act as if it is going to significantly affect the numbers of people playing certain factions, etc.

The truth is sex restricted classes don't affect much of anything at all. So I hope we see some more!:D

Xurré

08-13-2007, 02:39 PM

Does anyone get the idea that, sooner or later, every thread just degenerates into the same arguments?

The bottom line is that when it comes to Dark Elf fighters, you have your traditional Dark Elves, and then you have your Witch Elves, which fly in the face of everything typical Dark Elf fighters are about.
I disagree, strongly, that Witch Elves fly in the face of everything dark elves are about, but luckily that’s not quite what you said (just wanting to make the distinction clear).

Beyond that there really needs to be only one “typical ark elf fighter” and the likelihood is that it’ll be the tank. There is no reason to have, say, a Black Guard as a tank and an Executioner as a melee dps class since they’d be too much alike (both heavy armor, both wielding a 2-handed weapon, etc). That might work for the Greenskins with their little variety, but the dark elves have more variety than that.

People that like the former category tend to like a wide variety of Dark Elf units. I like the entire army, but Witch Elves are the one career I would never play as a main, and not because they're female.
I think it’s disingenuous to insinuate that people who like Witch Elves don’t like the entire dark elf army. I admit that I like Witches most of all, but that doesn’t mean I don’t like the rest of the army. It’s just that I think that Witch Elves are important since they show how the Warhammer dark elves are different from your average evil/dark elves (in other settings). Because I’m really not aware of any elves like the Witch Elves in any other setting, where assassin elves and magic-using elves and even armored elves (I think) have definitely been done before.

Hasn't it occured to you that the reason Xurre has had to argue so hard for Witch Elves is because there's a lot of opposition to the idea?
There’s a lot of opposition to every idea. I think it’s a little chicken-and-egg; people offer opposition because a strong opinion is presented... one which might lead to something people might not directly like.

I'd actually think it's because Xurre is nuts in the head for Witch Elves and just likes talking about how awesome they are.
:oops:

I don't show what they ride. I try to show what they wear (http://sabertoothgames.com/warcry/files/desktops/sod_terror_1280.jpg).
And Your example and art is still the same miniature. The oldest miniature design You can buy for Dark Elves. At least 2 editions old. All recent arts are bikini style. Look at DE Armybook, p. 1, 16, 59. Also 26 i think. And Morathi may be the first of the hags, but in TT she is Sorceress, not a Witch.
Morathi is both in TT... she’s both “High Sorceress” and “Beloved of Khaine”.

As for the image, I’m not sure if fan-art is the best source to look at (not to mention that she’s dress exactly the same as the Witches in that one). And that “oldest miniature design you can buy” is also pretty much the newest miniature design you can buy because it’s about the only miniature design you can buy except for the one on the cold one (which, again, I don’t think is used all that much at all).

And I seriously doubt that they’ll have the Sorceress in the game be naked, wrapped in nothing but a ribbon of fabric. :p

I see no reasons also. But there are some rumors about it.
Yeah, rumors based on a plural... but the rumors are ignoring that the quote was referring to two separate things. (People are reading “With the Dark Elves especially, their lore demands that certain careers must be female only or played in a certain way, ...” as there being two female-only careers, probably because they’d like that and, I must admit, I wouldn’t mind either).

This means 4 restricted carrers for destruction and 0 for order. Prefect balance ;)
Please understand this: We need not care too much about DE Chaos population balance. Order/Destruction balance is what we should think about.
Actually, sicne there’s already six gender restricted careers on Destruction (and probably one more at least on Dark Elves) and you can never make that up with just four classes on high elves it’s already too late. That to me shows that it’s not nearly as significant to Mythic as you seem to think... in fact some have suggested that they’re doing this on purpose precisely because of Order/Destruction population balance.

Just because people don't roll over and say "Oh, wow, now I see it! Witch Elves are the perfect career!" doesn't mean that they're ignoring the arguments.
It doesn’t mean that they’re not the perfect career for the role either. :p

The arguments for Witch Elves have only shown that they 'could' be a playable career. It's not impossible to do, they would fit, and the female only thing isn't a big deal. However, with the exception of the Executioner, none of the other candidates even need to explain how they could work in their slots.
I think I’ve done more than just show how Witch Elves could work... I’ve done a very detailed, class-by-class, point-by-point comparison of all the potential careers. And from that comparison the conclusion I draw is that Witch Elves are the most suitable career for the role. By far. And that was being quite generous to the other career.

Also I wouldn’t say that one doesn’t have to explain how the other options work since all of them have had fairly detailed attempts at giving ideas for how they could work (particularly Corsairs, where people have gone to extraordinary lengths to make up gameplay mechanics for them). The Assassin has the problem of being mostly based on sneaking and stealth and all people have said in their defense is “they could have positional damage”. Uh yeah, just like all the other classes. And the Executioners have various problems, including the problem that they’re a one-hit-kill class. Which again people have tried to invent mechanics for. So saying that other classes don’t need explanation is far from the truth.

So the argument on the table is once again, what is the best choice for Dark Elf DPS? Not the one that works, because they all do - even Executioners, and if you don't believe me, I'll make a topic devoted to explaining why and how the should/could be included.
I’ve already answered that question. In explicit detail.

In terms of combat prowess, the Assassin wins hands down.
I disagree. The Assassin only has the highest combat prowess because he has an insane WS. But the Assassin is also 125 point where Witch Elves, for example, are 13 points. If I make them ten times more powerful to match the point cost (as would be the case in the game) then they’d wipe the floor with Assassins if Assassins don’t have access to their stealth-type abilities (as would be the case in the game). In fact, I’m pretty sure Executioners would do just the same.

And yes, I do feel that I’ve proven that Witch Elves make the best choice for melee dps... at the very least the proof seems to stand unchallenged.

- Xurré

Noli me Tangere

08-13-2007, 02:44 PM

Of course, since they went with male only on classes that can be both in the lore, and added females to classes that only had males; they could go the other way completely with Dark Elves.. and take a class (or two) that has males and females in the lore.. and only let females play them.

Chew on that one for awhile. :D

The Masked Prince

08-13-2007, 02:47 PM

And yes, I do feel that I’ve proven that Witch Elves make the best choice for melee dps... at the very least the proof seems to stand unchallenged.
- Xurré

you've not proven that, only that they could work.
If you had done the same analizis on every carer that could be dps and strongly insinted on their advantages for that, it would have prooved the same.

Every dark elf candidate for DPS could work.

Bulwyf

08-13-2007, 02:52 PM

you've not proven that, only that they could work.
If you had done the same analizis on every carer that could be dps and strongly insinted on their advantages for that, it would have prooved the same.

Every dark elf candidate for DPS could work.

I agree. Executioners, Corsairs, Beastmaster, Shade, Witch Elf, Cold One Knight, Black Guard...basically anything with a melee weapon could have a similar argument built in its case. All we really have are our own opinions and biases.

Xurré

08-13-2007, 03:24 PM

you've not proven that, only that they could work.
If you had done the same analizis on every carer that could be dps and strongly insinted on their advantages for that, it would have prooved the same.

Every dark elf candidate for DPS could work.
You'd be right if it was only about "what would work". But it isn't (or they'd just add Dark Elf Streetsweepers). And on all those other points I feel that I've proven it.

- Xurré

Selendor

08-13-2007, 03:26 PM

You'd be right if it was only about "what would work". But it isn't (or they'd just add Dark Elf Streetsweepers). And on all those other points I feel that I've proven it.

- Xurré

Well we don't. :-P And given that you're going to have your hopes and dreams stabbed into a million bloody pieces at Leipzig anyway, you'll understand if I don't feel like taking the time to argue the point in depth. :-P

Thoden Firehammer

08-13-2007, 03:26 PM

You'd be right if it was only about "what would work". But it isn't (or they'd just add Dark Elf Streetsweepers). And on all those other points I feel that I've proven it.

- Xurré

I'm sorry Xurre but i'm with them on this one, you can't logicaly prove an opinion is better than another opinion

Grimfell Gromgear

08-13-2007, 03:36 PM

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, even if you could prove it to be wrong.

That's what makes them opinions and not facts.

Morag

08-13-2007, 03:37 PM

I think I’ve done more than just show how Witch Elves could work... I’ve done a very detailed, class-by-class, point-by-point comparison of all the potential careers. And from that comparison the conclusion I draw is that Witch Elves are the most suitable career for the role. By far. And that was being quite generous to the other career.

Really don't think I need to say much about this one. It's all a matter of opinion.

And yes, I do feel that I’ve proven that Witch Elves make the best choice for melee dps... at the very least the proof seems to stand unchallenged.

Ok, but I don't think they make the best choice. How am I wrong? Surely not because I don't agree with you, right?

Instead of saying you've proven something, you ought to say something like: "I feel, because of these reasons, that Witch Elves make the best choice to fill the melee dps role". Proof implies fact, but we're arguing opinion.

If anyone posted a huge thread stating that they think Corsairs or Executioners or Assassins were the best choice for melee dps I would be there arguing against them too. At least for another two weeks until they announce the classes, then I'll probably go back to just lurking.

edit: Beaten by the Dwarves!

Kellaris

08-13-2007, 04:19 PM

As for the image, I’m not sure if fan-art is the best source to look at.
- Xurré
This is not a fan art. This is Very Official Warhammer CCG. Games Workshop approved.
Armybook artwork also is not a fan art. It is Very oficial armybook. Made by Games Workshop

And that “oldest miniature design you can buy” is also pretty much the newest miniature design you can buy because it’s about the only miniature design you can buy except for the one on the cold one (which, again, I don’t think is used all that much at all).
And I seriously doubt that they’ll have the Sorceress in the game be naked, wrapped in nothing but a ribbon of fabric. :p - Xurré
You may think that. But the fact is, that since the time of "on foot Morathi" the sorceresses fashion has changed. And recent morathi shows that. Recend sorceress (on cold one) shows that.
I have no idea why GW did not released a new sorceress on foot. But IMHO it was some kind of mistake.
So, I consider Your faith that someone will chose this old, ugly miniature over all recent arworks is a good joke. ;)

And yes, I do feel that I’ve proven that Witch Elves make the best choice for melee dps... at the very least the proof seems to stand unchallenged.
- Xurré
Personally, I have seen it challenged many times.
You have made Your point very well. But it was far from proof.

Illya

08-13-2007, 04:27 PM

And yes, I do feel that I’ve proven that Witch Elves make the best choice for melee dps... at the very least the proof seems to stand unchallenged.

- Xurré

You've been tossing your opinions at us for weeks, and you've done a great job at formulating it. But as many others have stated, you've proven nothing. You simply stated your opinion and reasoning. Nothing more.

I feel Corsairs would make a better choice, and because I have neither the inclination or the time to write up a bunch of huge posts about how and why, does that make me 'wrong'? No, it means I have a different opinion that you. And I'm entitled to that, as you are to yours. We don't have to agree.

Pan

08-13-2007, 04:30 PM

I actually think it’s the other way around. Roleplayers tends to be a lot less hung up on gender. After all, for roleplayers it’s all just about playing another characters, being very aware that it’s not you. It’s usually the people who don’t roleplay who have issues with gender restrictions (“I just play myself” being a common one).

You really think it will be the other way around? The only argument I have seen against gender restriction is that the avatar is an extension of the character playing it. Thats role playing. Every MMO I have played seem to have a larger majority of males playing female characters than male characters.

Illya

08-13-2007, 04:59 PM

You really think it will be the other way around? The only argument I have seen against gender restriction is that the avatar is an extension of the character playing it. Thats role playing. Every MMO I have played seem to have a larger majority of males playing female characters than male characters.

Have you looked at the roleplayers on these boards? Can you honestly say that the majority of them prefers to play as the opposite sex? I doubt it very much.

Pan

08-13-2007, 05:04 PM

Have you looked at the roleplayers on these boards? Can you honestly say that the majority of them prefers to play as the opposite sex? I doubt it very much.

Thats my point. I originally said that people complaining about gender will most likely be on RP servers. What you quoted was my response to someone saying it would be the other way around meaning the people complaining about gender wouldn't be on rp servers but normal servers instead.

Bulwyf

08-13-2007, 05:07 PM

Thats my point.

I do not know what games you have played but I have yet to play any game where female toons, either really male or female behind it, ever outnumbered male toons.

Tiervexx

08-13-2007, 06:33 PM

Noli me Tangere

08-13-2007, 07:27 PM

ummmmmmmmmm, yes strength is not EVERYTHING but it is a whole lot.

The Bruce Lee image of a skinny guy beating the crap out of all sorts of men many times his size and strength is a computer nerd's fantasy much like the runway model thin woman in a chain-male bikini.

Actually, historically and actively such is very real. Huo Yuanjia was put in a bout with a rather large western professional boxer who had considerable weight, muscle, and size over him and won. As just one example.

Tiervexx

08-13-2007, 07:32 PM

Actually, historically and actively such is very real. Huo Yuanjia was put in a bout with a rather large western professional boxer who had considerable weight, muscle, and size over him and won. As just one example.

I did not say it was not possible! But this example does not help your case as boxers know a specific, controlled sport (they don't know how to use their legs).

And historically old Martial arts masters are as full of themselves, and as likely to create victories in their own minds as Warhammer Elves.

Find me an example of a top MMA heavyweight being owned by a 130 lbs nothing and I'll eat my words.

And as stated above...Martial Arts masters are prone to boosting so just some link is not enough, find real proof. Even stories of Huo Yuanjia's fights are not consistent. Some say he fought a Russian Wrestler who challenged the Chinese, others say the Russian just backed down...

Selendor

08-13-2007, 07:39 PM

I did not say it was not possible! But this example does not help your case as boxers know a specific, controled sport (they don't know how to use their legs).

And historically old Martial arts masters are as full of themselves, and as likely to create victories in their own minds as Warhammer Elves.

Find me an example of a top MMA heavyweight being owned by a 130 lbs nothing and I'll eat my words.

You're assuming equal skill, though. Obviously, everything else being equal the stronger opponent will have a much greater chance of winning. But as it relates to Warhammer, Elves are much faster than most combatants, and have trained in their chosen weapon longer than most of their opponents have been alive.

An Orc vs. an Elven Warrior would be more akin to a heavyweight barroom brawler vs. a trained martial artist. Brawn vs. brains, strength vs. skill. You're assuming every race is as skilled as an Elf...and I'm saying, show me the Orc that is as fast and agile as a Dark Elf warrior.

Noli me Tangere

08-13-2007, 07:39 PM

I did not say it was not possible! But this example does not help your case as boxers know a specific, controled sport (they don't know how to use their legs).

And historically old Martial arts masters are as full of themselves, and as likely to create victories in their own minds as Warhammer Elves.

Find me an example of a top MMA heavyweight being owned by a 130 lbs nothing and I'll eat my words.

I'm not sure what you want, if historical proof isn't enough for you. I gave you a very real example of a much smaller martial artist taking on, and easily defeating, a professional heavy weight boxer. I'm really not sure what would be more appropriate.

This is what you said:

The Bruce Lee image of a skinny guy beating the crap out of all sorts of men many times his size and strength is a computer nerd's fantasy

All I did was show you, with easily affirmed facts, that it's not just some computer nerds fantasy, as you put it.

Tiervexx

08-13-2007, 07:43 PM

All I did was show you, with easily affirmed facts, that it's not just some computer nerds fantasy, as you put it.

you're right, that came out as an extreme statement but it was not meant to be. My bad.

I was just sort of reacting to Vianne saying:

"Physical strength does not necessarily have anything to do with prowess in combat"

which is an obviously faulty extreme in the other direction...

You're assuming equal skill, though. Obviously, everything else being equal the stronger opponent will have a much greater chance of winning.

This is exactly what I meant to say in the first place!

But as it relates to Warhammer, Elves are much faster than most combatants, and have trained in their chosen weapon longer than most of their opponents have been alive.

I was just using elves as an example of people that tend to exaggerate claims, but they are reputed to be skilled for sure =P

Thrakkesh

08-13-2007, 09:58 PM

What a weird topic of conversation this has turned.

Well here's my two cents. Pure brute muscle will not win you a fight, period. You want examples? To hell with your historical ones--I'll give you real life ones. Ever watch a barfight between some muscle-bound idiot and some small scrappy--looking guy? I've seen the scrappy looking guy win that bit. It's just as much about who fights dirtier/smarter/faster/more experienced as it is strength. Heavyweight boxing is a poor example of the 'amazing fighter that can't be beat by anyone stronger' because it's very, very tightly goverened by rules--you can't kick, can't grapple, can't use any other part of your body as weapons, you're constricted to an area you can hit, and numerous other rules.

Does a stronger guy have an advantage? Yes, and contary to popular opinion, the small, skinny guy that's lightning quick ninja-like will not always win that fight. It's just as likely that the big guy grabs him (thus taking away the speed advantage) and snaps him in half.

Battles are complex affairs with lots of different variables. Just because a guy has more muscle mass or can generate more pounds of force behind each blow doesn't mean he'll win, depending on number of advantages. How agile is he? Experienced? What's his pain threshhold, etc etc...? Just being stronger doesn't always mean much.

However, I ultimately have to agree somewhat with Tiev simply because people seem to not like the idea of someone physically strong having an advantage (it's an intimidation thing--people love the idea of a dark horse in fights, someone who looks like he shouldn't win, but does). All your speed and agility means nothing if a big guy actually gets his hands on you, and inertia is an ugly thing no matter how 'skilled' you are. I've always wondered why straight-up power is always downplayed by people. What is it we have against people who are physically strong? (Probably the meat-head stereotype).

As for Elves...? Who say's they're physcially weak? No where in Warhammer lore does it say that Elves are signficently weaker then your average human. We might not have any elven bodybuilders, but you can be damn sure they're going to likely be tough enough.

Edit: Perfect example in tabletop terms; Elves might be faster then a Chaos Warrior, but throw a unit of Elven Spearmen or even Swordsmasters against a unit of Chosen Knights/Warriors and they tend to go splat. (Swordsmasters standing a decent chance against the foot-sloggers, but not by if they're sword-and-boarding).

Selendor

08-13-2007, 10:14 PM

Chosen are warriors chosen by their gods, and they're grossly overpowered. Don't bring them into this. :-P

Xurré

08-14-2007, 04:07 AM

Instead of saying you've proven something, you ought to say something like: "I feel, because of these reasons, that Witch Elves make the best choice to fill the melee dps role". Proof implies fact, but we're arguing opinion.
Again, I did more than just say “Witch Elves re best because…” I listed all the classes, listed strong points and weak point (which I think can be considered facts for the most part) for all of them. Then I compared all of the classes on a per-role bases, looking at various criteria. In each I’ve been as objective as humanly possible. And still Witch Elves came out on top.

Maybe I should’ve listed it like this:

FACT: Witch Elves represent an important part of dark elf culture.
FACT: Witch Elves have a distinct appearance.
FACT: Witch Elves can have a very interesting gameplay appearance.
FACT: Witch Elves are sexy.
FACT: Witch Elves are very recognizable and unique.
FACT: Witch Elves have a very wide variety in appearance.

Additionally, comparing to the other classes for the same role:
Witch Elves are the strongest representative of the Temple of Khaine (possibly shared with Assassins).
Corsairs have the strongest background reason for being present in battle, but very closely followed by Witch Elves.
Witch Elves have the most distinct appearance of the classes.
Witch Elves seem to have the most promising gameplay mechanic (for the role).
Witch Elves seem to best embody the melee damage role.
Witch Elves seem to be at least as interesting as the other classes.
Witch Elves are female-only.
Now, you might argue that the second list is a list of opinion (though supported by facts)… but I say prove otherwise. Show how you think Witch Elves aren’t the strongest representatives of the Temple of Khaine. Show to me how they don’t have the most distinct appearance (and remember, whether you or I like the appearance or not shouldn’t come into it). Show to me how, just looking at the table-top rules, they don’t have the most promising gameplay mechanic for a melee damage class. Show how they don’t embody the melee damage role. Show to me how they aren’t interesting.

Show to me how other classes are better suited for the melee damage role. Because I’ve done my part.

And if that’s not good enough, then how exactly do you want me to prove it to you? How do you think Mythic decides which classes are best for the roles? Do you think they just throw a dice and randomly pick classes, doing whatever the hell they want to make them fit (something I get the impression some indeed seem to think, considering the ridiculous suggestions to turn Witches into support)?

Something needs to determine what classes to pick for what role… and I’ve shown more reasons than anyone else, reasons supported by facts, why Witch Elves would best fit the role (and done the same for the other classes, making Sorceress best for Support and for the other two coming with ties, more or less).

The thread is there… I’ve asked people to show their thought, and support them, so that we can adjust the list because I’m well aware that my like and desire for Witches might cloud my judgment on point (and I have adjusted the text several times already based on that). People just stopped bringing up points. So I feel that the way the text is now it stands unchallenged.

So yes, unless someone points out flaws (that aren’t based on personal opinion as that goes for not just me) I consider that I’ve proven that they’re the best for the role, Sorceresses best for support, with no mounted combat Black Guards probably best for tank and with no pet class Shades probably best for ranged.

This is not a fan art. This is Very Official Warhammer CCG. Games Workshop approved.
Heh, it’s definitely the poorest official art I’ve seen then as it looks more like fan art.

I have no idea why GW did not released a new sorceress on foot. But IMHO it was some kind of mistake.
Yes, of course, they make mistakes if it’s inconvenient for you. :roll:

So, I consider Your faith that someone will chose this old, ugly miniature over all recent arworks is a good joke. ;)
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder… I actually think the mounted miniature is ugly and the ‘old’ one quite beautiful and detailed. And, yes, the ‘old’ miniature much more represents how I see dark elf sorceresses than the new one.

You really think it will be the other way around? The only argument I have seen against gender restriction is that the avatar is an extension of the character playing it. Thats role playing. Every MMO I have played seem to have a larger majority of males playing female characters than male characters.
For roleplayers the character and the player are two separate things. It’s the people who don’t roleplay more often than not who see the character as an extension of themselves. At best they “play themselves in the Warhammer universe” which is probably the weakest/easiest form of roleplay (and a good way to get started with roleplaying, but there’s so, so much more to it than just that).

As such, roleplayers tends to be far less hung up on gender as for them the character and the player are two separate entities anyway (“are you are dark elf in real life too?” :p ).

- Xurré

Illya

08-14-2007, 04:25 AM

Again, I did more than just say “Witch Elves re best because…” I listed all the classes, listed strong points and weak point (which I think can be considered facts for the most part) for all of them. Then I compared all of the classes on a per-role bases, looking at various criteria. In each I’ve been as objective as humanly possible. And still Witch Elves came out on top.

Maybe I should’ve listed it like this:

FACT: Witch Elves represent an important part of dark elf culture.
FACT: Witch Elves have a distinct appearance.
FACT: Witch Elves can have a very interesting gameplay appearance.
FACT: Witch Elves are sexy.
FACT: Witch Elves are very recognizable and unique.
FACT: Witch Elves have a very wide variety in appearance.
Additionally, comparing to the other classes for the same role:
Witch Elves are the strongest representative of the Temple of Khaine (possibly shared with Assassins).
Corsairs have the strongest background reason for being present in battle, but very closely followed by Witch Elves.
Witch Elves have the most distinct appearance of the classes.
Witch Elves seem to have the most promising gameplay mechanic (for the role).
Witch Elves seem to best embody the melee damage role.
Witch Elves seem to be at least as interesting as the other classes.
Witch Elves are female-only.Now, you might argue that the second list is a list of opinion (though supported by facts)… but I say prove otherwise. Show how you think Witch Elves aren’t the strongest representatives of the Temple of Khaine. Show to me how they don’t have the most distinct appearance (and remember, whether you or I like the appearance or not shouldn’t come into it). Show to me how, just looking at the table-top rules, they don’t have the most promising gameplay mechanic for a melee damage class. Show how they don’t embody the melee damage role. Show to me how they aren’t interesting.

Show to me how other classes are better suited for the melee damage role. Because I’ve done my part.

And if that’s not good enough, then how exactly do you want me to prove it to you? How do you think Mythic decides which classes are best for the roles? Do you think they just throw a dice and randomly pick classes, doing whatever the hell they want to make them fit (something I get the impression some indeed seem to think, considering the ridiculous suggestions to turn Witches into support)?

Something needs to determine what classes to pick for what role… and I’ve shown more reasons than anyone else, reasons supported by facts, why Witch Elves would best fit the role (and done the same for the other classes, making Sorceress best for Support and for the other two coming with ties, more or less).

The thread is there… I’ve asked people to show their thought, and support them, so that we can adjust the list because I’m well aware that my like and desire for Witches might cloud my judgment on point (and I have adjusted the text several times already based on that). People just stopped bringing up points. So I feel that the way the text is now it stands unchallenged.

So yes, unless someone points out flaws (that aren’t based on personal opinion as that goes for not just me) I consider that I’ve proven that they’re the best for the role, Sorceresses best for support, with no mounted combat Black Guards probably best for tank and with no pet class Shades probably best for ranged.

No, you haven't "proven" anything. You just can't seem to grasp that. Everything you've said is merely your opinion. Why you consider Witch Elves to be the best for the dps role. And you say you were objective, but your long list was incredibly biased.

For all we know, Mythic might be thinking along the exact same lines as you, or they might be thinking the exact opposite. And I don't think anyone is that stupid that they think Mythic 'rolls a dice.' (I agree the WE as a support class made no sense, however)

All you've done, and again, you've done it well, is state why YOU feel Witch Elves would make a good class. And that will always be your opinion, no matter how much you try to make it fact.

Anyways, this whole discussing Witch Elves is making me sick. I don't think I'm going to bother to come back to these boards until the classes are released. It doesn't matter what anyone says, you have your opinion, I have mine, the others have theirs. NOTHING is going to change that, even when the classes are released. People will still say: Well, I feel [insert class] would've been way better for the role.

If Witch Elves are in, I very much doubt it'll be because of anything you said, but rather that Mythic have their own reasons for doing so. If they aren't, you've already stated you won't be playing. Does that mean Mythic will have proven you wrong? Or that they have a different opinion to yours? After all, they are the ones who will actually be making money or not on this game.

I'm still hoping for corsairs, though I doubt they'll be in. Same for Cold One Knights. With the ridiculous choice of Chosen being mounted, well. Both elf races have iconic and excellent mounted warriors. Having only one for each side is a poor choice, I feel. Ah well. I'm out, good luck debating your opinions with the others.

Bulwyf

08-14-2007, 05:09 AM

No, you haven't "proven" anything. You just can't seem to grasp that. Everything you've said is merely your opinion. Why you consider Witch Elves to be the best for the dps role. And you say you were objective, but your long list was incredibly biased.

For all we know, Mythic might be thinking along the exact same lines as you, or they might be thinking the exact opposite. And I don't think anyone is that stupid that they think Mythic 'rolls a dice.' (I agree the WE as a support class made no sense, however)

All you've done, and again, you've done it well, is state why YOU feel Witch Elves would make a good class. And that will always be your opinion, no matter how much you try to make it fact.

Anyways, this whole discussing Witch Elves is making me sick. I don't think I'm going to bother to come back to these boards until the classes are released. It doesn't matter what anyone says, you have your opinion, I have mine, the others have theirs. NOTHING is going to change that, even when the classes are released. People will still say: Well, I feel [insert class] would've been way better for the role.

If Witch Elves are in, I very much doubt it'll be because of anything you said, but rather that Mythic have their own reasons for doing so. If they aren't, you've already stated you won't be playing. Does that mean Mythic will have proven you wrong? Or that they have a different opinion to yours? After all, they are the ones who will actually be making money or not on this game.

I'm still hoping for corsairs, though I doubt they'll be in. Same for Cold One Knights. With the ridiculous choice of Chosen being mounted, well. Both elf races have iconic and excellent mounted warriors. Having only one for each side is a poor choice, I feel. Ah well. I'm out, good luck debating your opinions with the others.

100% agreement. I find it more than a bit presumptious to think that someone who has been doing the "BUT I WANT THIS!" debate for well over a year creates a TLDR argument that ends with, surprise!, their chosen class coming out on top and actually thinks that settled the debate on this board.

All of the things Xurre listed as "facts" are still opinions. I am not saying I disagree with all of them as being factual in terms of lore but even then its still opinion. A fact about WE would be something like "they are female, they worship Khaine, they are on drugs, they like to kill people and bathe in the blood to stay young and fresh" etc. All of these other arguments are just opinions.

Illya, I stopped going round and round with Xurre months ago because there really is no point to it. We've all made our cases for what we want and very soon (God willing...) Mythic will finally reveal the four classes. And even then we will still all have our own opinions as to what really should have made it in.

Xurré

08-14-2007, 05:21 AM

No, you haven't "proven" anything. You just can't seem to grasp that. Everything you've said is merely your opinion. Why you consider Witch Elves to be the best for the dps role. And you say you were objective, but your long list was incredibly biased.
Prove it.

Nobody in these forums has done the same thing as I have. Nobody.

If my point are so biased then show me that they’re biased instead of just stating “they’re biased”. Show me that doing the same thing you get to a different conclusion.

The strengths I listed aren’t opinion. They’re facts.

Witch Elves do represent an important part of dark elf culture… I haven’ heard anyone, not even the most ardent of opponents, seriously argue otherwise. They represent the Temple of Khaine, and that is a very, very important part of their society.

They have a distinct appearance. That isn’t opinion, that is fact. Even the strongest opponents must see that they look distinct. People might or might not like this appearance, but people can’t deny that it is distinct.

They can have a very interesting gameplay mechanic. Again, this is not opinion, this is fact. Even those opposed to Witch Elves have admitted as much (if only in a “everything can have”). Witch Elves clearly can have an interesting gameplay mechanic.

They are sexy. Again, this is not opinion but fact. Tastes on what people find attractive notwithstanding I think everyone agrees that they are. After all, that’s part of their description: “The decadent, fragile looks of the maidens of Ulthuan are nothing compared to the intoxicating beauty of the Witch Elves”.

They are very recognizable and unique. Again this isn’t opinion, but fact. Even those who hate them do at least admit that they’re very recognisable. Put a Corsair, an Executioner, an Assassin and a Witch Elf in a lineup and nobody will fail to pick up the Witch Elf. And they are unique that in no setting (that I’m aware of) has there ever been any elf even close to a Witch Elf… frenzied bloodlust is just not something elves generally do.

And they have a wide variety of appearances. Again, this isn’t opinion but fact. I’ve started a whole separate thread just to prove this one point; in the given miniatures and art there’s more than enough variety to draw on.

Which brings us to the comparisons. These are perhaps less fact and more the result of reasoning.

I’ve posed that Witch Elves are the strongest representatives of the Temple of Khaine. The other candidates are Assassins and Executioners. And while they’re both important aspects of the temple, the Witches are the priestesses, they’re the brides of Khaine (instead of just doing as Khaine does). They are the images that the dark elves fear, they are the ones people tend to think about when thinking about the Temple of Khaine; maidens bathing in blood.

They don’t have the strongest background for being in battle; the Corsairs have that (as any invasion is likely to be accompanied by Corsairs). But they do have a strong place as they’re at home in battle (just as most any dark elf); they’re not less than most dark elf units in this.

I’ve posed that they have the most distinct appearance of the four classes proposed for the role. There is no real way to prove this, except doing some scientific study with hundreds of people who have never even heard of Warhammer. But do note that this isn’t a matter of taste, it’s a visual matter. For however much people might like the Corsair cloak (for example) it doesn’t look as different from a standard armoured warrior as a chainmail bikini clad, crazed-out elf maiden does.

I’ve also posed that they have the most promising gameplay mechanic. Yes, I know that you can make everything work and that everything can be made interesting, but looking purely at the abilities they have in TT (which is the only other gameplay mechanics we have) the Witches come out best with frenzy and poison. Corsairs don’t really have any special gameplay mechanic in TT. Executioners have killing blow, which is problematic at best (again, not opinion). And Assassins are based for a large part on stealth, which is already said to not be included. This is the most objective way we can look at gameplay mechanics. Go beyond that and it all becomes invention and creativity (which all classes can have equally).

I’ve posed that they best represent the melee damage role. All are close combat roles. And in armor the Corsair might do best (if you take ‘lightly armoured’ very strict) with Executioners doing worst. And all specialize in single-target offense. But Witches stick out because they do rapid amount of damage. A single hit (for Executioners mostly, but Assassins to a lesser degree as well) is over in a single hit. Witches keep going and going and going with doing damage again and again. As I compared it, it’s the difference between a single cut and a shredder.

And I’ve posed that they’re interesting. Sure, this is the most opinion-based one… but even people who hate them or think they are boring have to admit that for a lot of people they’re very interesting. As such they’re at least as interesting as any of the other classes.

So, again, tell me how this is biased? Because again and again I’ve tried to show that they do make the best career for the role and all I get back is “you’re biased”.

For all we know, Mythic might be thinking along the exact same lines as you, or they might be thinking the exact opposite. And I don't think anyone is that stupid that they think Mythic 'rolls a dice.' (I agree the WE as a support class made no sense, however)
Mythic has to do something to select the classes and I’ve tried my best to reason out how they might look at things. I’ve tried my best to think as they might think.

If there’s something I’ve missed in how they might look at the classes then show me, reason it logically like I have (tried at least) instead of just stating opinions. Because while people keep accusing me of trying to state opinions as fact I haven’t seen anything other than opinions from anyone else either.

Of course, it’s quite possible that some designer at Mythic just picks the classes they like best or such. It’s quite possible that they ignore the points I’ve mentioned. I realize that it’s a creative process just as much as a logical one. But if you base things purely on creativity then they could very well invent four new classes (one of them a druchii streetsweeper); what’s the point of trying to determine which classes would best fit then?

Anyways, this whole discussing Witch Elves is making me sick.
I agree… it’s making me sick as well; damn near physically ill.

Perhaps the admins should lock the elf boards down for two weeks or so, because I fear things might turn to violence before Leipzig.

- Xurré

Heno

08-14-2007, 05:29 AM

Personally I think it's going to be Beastmasters.

*Ducks*

Kellaris

08-14-2007, 05:33 AM

Then I compared all of the classes on a per-role bases, looking at various criteria. In each I’ve been as objective as humanly possible.
- Xurré
I really cannot understand how can You claim that You were objective while everone knows that You are one of the strogest WE supporters.

Maybe I should’ve listed it like this:
FACT: Witch Elves represent an important part of dark elf culture.
FACT: Witch Elves have a distinct appearance.
FACT: Witch Elves can have a very interesting gameplay appearance.
FACT: Witch Elves are sexy.
FACT: Witch Elves are very recognizable and unique.
FACT: Witch Elves have a very wide variety in appearance.- Xurré

So many FACTS and all except one are about appearance.
Fact 1. So are Corsairs. I say every Young Druchii dream to be corsair one day. And only handful of them wish to be Witch. Corsairs represent how Druchii lives. "Take all You can, give nothing back" stuff.
Facts 2-6. What can we say about appearance.. Maybe citation:

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder…
- Xurré
WE are definately most sexy and distinct. But Corsair or Executioner have better variety of appearance. And it is only becouse they have more clothes to change.
WE variety would be visible on short range only.

Additionally, comparing to the other classes for the same role:
Witch Elves are the strongest representative of the Temple of Khaine (possibly shared with Assassins).
Corsairs have the strongest background reason for being present in battle, but very closely followed by Witch Elves.
Witch Elves have the most distinct appearance of the classes.
Witch Elves seem to have the most promising gameplay mechanic (for the role).
Witch Elves seem to best embody the melee damage role.
Witch Elves seem to be at least as interesting as the other classes.
Witch Elves are female-only.- Xurré
1. This is IMHO disadvantage, becouse we are going to be House Urian retainers and WE are loyal only to Malekith and that would mean divided loyalties.
2. Every Druchii have strong reason to be here. This is invasion.
3. Personal opinion. Also it is important to be distinct (And Corsairs are) not to me most distinct.
4. Oh, yes. This mechanic was already tested on Choppa. Also it gives mythic easier design, becouse they do not need to think about something new.
5. I say Executioner seem to best embody the melee damage role. And Corsair is the best when we think about how Mythic see that archetype. Again not a proof but opinion.
6. True
7. Clear disadvantage.
Also, it is good to mention Armour System problem that comes with slayers. WE dress exactly as slayers so their armour probles are exactly the same.
Etc etc...

And if that’s not good enough, then how exactly do you want me to prove it to you?
- Xurré
You can try to prove it. But You cannot be a lawyer and the judge in one person.
So cannot be me.
And until we will found someone suitable for that, we can only argue.

The thread is there… I’ve asked people to show their thought, and support them, so that we can adjust the list because I’m well aware that my like and desire for Witches might cloud my judgment on point (and I have adjusted the text several times already based on that). People just stopped bringing up points. So I feel that the way the text is now it stands unchallenged.
- Xurré
I feel I have challenged Your point many times. You just refused to accept my arguments. But it is not exactly what I understand when someone says "unchallenged"

Heh, it’s definitely the poorest official art I’ve seen then as it looks more like fan art.

Yes, of course, they make mistakes if it’s inconvenient for you. :roll:

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder… I actually think the mounted miniature is ugly and the ‘old’ one quite beautiful and detailed. And, yes, the ‘old’ miniature much more represents how I see dark elf sorceresses than the new one.
- Xurré

It is funny how smart You slide over this topic avoiding strongest point: Armybook artwork.;)
And I agree that this wallpaper is not best artwork I have ever seen. But still it shows how they dress like.

Grimfell Gromgear

08-14-2007, 05:37 AM

Facts are indisputable truths.

Facts are something like. '2+2=4', 'Abraham Lincoln was shot in Fords Theater', 'GW is a company that owns Warhammer'

Facts are not
Witch Elves do represent an important part of dark elf culture… I haven’ heard anyone, not even the most ardent of opponents, seriously argue otherwise. They represent the Temple of Khaine, and that is a very, very important part of their society.

Part of this is a fact. Witch Elves represent the Temple of Khaine.

Whether or not that is an important aspect of Dark Elf society is opinion. Now, it may be a very stupid opinion to believe otherwise but it's like if I said currently.

'The democratic party is in control of congress, it is an important thing to have'

People can't argue the fact of who has control (based on number of won seats), but importance is opinion based. Someone could argue that compared to executive authority congress isn't very important at all.

Importance is always opinion. It may be obvious opinions most if not everyone agrees on, but it is an opinion.

They can have a very interesting gameplay mechanic. Again, this is not opinion, this is fact. Even those opposed to Witch Elves have admitted as much (if only in a “everything can have”). Witch Elves clearly can have an interesting gameplay mechanic.

Possibilites aren't facts either. I could say 'Fact, it is theoretically possible World War 3 will start tommorow' Sure, it's possible. It's possible Witch Elves could have a great mechanic. They could also have a lame one. They could also have an average one. Same with anything else.

They are sexy. Again, this is not opinion but fact. Tastes on what people find attractive notwithstanding I think everyone agrees that they are. After all, that’s part of their description: “The decadent, fragile looks of the maidens of Ulthuan are nothing compared to the intoxicating beauty of the Witch Elves”.

Sexy is always opinion and not fact. It can be a matter of fact that a majority of polled players would find them sexy (if such a poll exists), or that they are considered sexy by a majority of races in lore (if such a statement exists), but sexy is not an inherent attribute, it is bestowed upon them by interactions with players or with other characters in lore. Facts are self evident.

They are very recognizable and unique. Again this isn’t opinion, but fact. Even those who hate them do at least admit that they’re very recognisable. Put a Corsair, an Executioner, an Assassin and a Witch Elf in a lineup and nobody will fail to pick up the Witch Elf. And they are unique that in no setting (that I’m aware of) has there ever been any elf even close to a Witch Elf… frenzied bloodlust is just not something elves generally do.

Recognizability is also not fact. It is recognizable to you. It might be recognizable to a lot of people. Again, the statement 'A poll exists which shows that 88% of respondents were capable of recognizing Witch Elves' or something along those lines, would be a fact. But recognizability is not a self evident truth.

And they have a wide variety of appearances. Again, this isn’t opinion but fact. I’ve started a whole separate thread just to prove this one point; in the given miniatures and art there’s more than enough variety to draw on.

This one is a fact really in my opinion, I have no probelms with it.

Seriously. Everyone here in this thread is posting opinions. Yours are no better than anyone elses. There's only one honest fact that is indisputable in this thread.

'No one knows what class Mythic is going to do and how they are going to do them.'

Everyone else is positing theories and seeing if other people like their thoughts or not. Remember, theories are never facts.

Xurré

08-14-2007, 06:36 AM

I really cannot understand how can You claim that You were objective while everone knows that You are one of the strogest WE supporters.
Being a strong supporter doesn’t preclude the possibility to be objective.

So many FACTS and all except one are about appearance.
Actually, one of them is an error as it should say “mechanic” instead of “appearance”.

As for many of them being about appearance… that’s true. But they’re also all different aspects. And is about sex-appeal. One of them is about variety within their appearance. One is about looking different from the rest. And one is about having a unique and recognizable appearance (though now that I think about it, maybe that should be merged with the previous one).

Also, I never said there aren’t points for Corsairs 9and the other classes) either; quite the opposite. I just lifted the ones for Witches out of the main post… look there for the rest of them.

WE are definately most sexy and distinct. But Corsair or Executioner have better variety of appearance. And it is only becouse they have more clothes to change.
WE variety would be visible on short range only.
I haven’t seen any variety in Corsairs or Executioners at all. And I have seen a huge variety in Witch Elves… variety that is at least as recognizable as that shown in the various tier armors for the other classes.

1. This is IMHO disadvantage, becouse we are going to be House Urian retainers and WE are loyal only to Malekith and that would mean divided loyalties.
Maybe I should make a note of the whole house thing, but it’s completely separate from the Temple of Khaine point.

If Sorceresses from the Convent, Malkith’s personal Black Guard, and Assassins and Executioners (both also part of the Temple of Khaine) are considered valid options for classes then so can Witch Elves be. Unless you want to remove all those as options because they’re part of temples and other separate groups.

2. Every Druchii have strong reason to be here. This is invasion.
Yes, and that’s a good thing. This might not have been the case (Wood Elves, for instance, have no reason to go out of their forest unless their forest is directly threatened).

3. Personal opinion. Also it is important to be distinct (And Corsairs are) not to me most distinct.
Perhaps, though I’d say if you can choose between just distinct and most distinct then, all else being equal, why wouldn’t you go with the best option?

I disagree though that it’s just personal opinion.

4. Oh, yes. This mechanic was already tested on Choppa. Also it gives mythic easier design, becouse they do not need to think about something new.
:roll:

5. I say Executioner seem to best embody the melee damage role. And Corsair is the best when we think about how Mythic see that archetype. Again not a proof but opinion.
You can say whatever you want, but until you support what you say it doesn’t mean anything. How do Executioners best embody sustained damage over time?

7. Clear disadvantage.
Typical that of all the point you attack, you don’t attack the one that I clearly listed as a disadvantage. :roll:

Also, it is good to mention Armour System problem that comes with slayers. WE dress exactly as slayers so their armour probles are exactly the same.
We’ve been over that a hundred time already… Witches far from dress the same as Slayers and don’t have their armor problems. Not even close. Perhaps you just want to see it as the same as it would make it so easy for you to discount them, wouldn’t it.

I feel I have challenged Your point many times. You just refused to accept my arguments. But it is not exactly what I understand when someone says "unchallenged"
That’s because the way in which you challenge them is just by saying “this isn’t true”. That’s not how it works… if you want to challenge points you have to provide reasoning for it and support that reasoning.

Part of this is a fact. Witch Elves represent the Temple of Khaine.

Whether or not that is an important aspect of Dark Elf society is opinion. Now, it may be a very stupid opinion to believe otherwise but it's like if I said currently.

'The democratic party is in control of congress, it is an important thing to have'

People can't argue the fact of who has control (based on number of won seats), but importance is opinion based. Someone could argue that compared to executive authority congress isn't very important at all.

Importance is always opinion. It may be obvious opinions most if not everyone agrees on, but it is an opinion.
“Unleash the Fury of the Druchii upon your foes and be glad that you do Khaine’s great work.”
“This city is devoted to the service of our great god Khaine in his aspect as the Executioner.”
“In honour of our great god Khaela Mansha Khaine, the bloody-handed god of war and death, we have built mighty temples across our lands.”
“Each of our cities has a temple, and the rulers are required to pay a tithe to the Hag ruling over the Witch Elves within the temple.”
“One slave in ten that our raiders bring back to Naggarond belongs to the Temple, where a great honour awaits them as they are sacrificed to Khaine.”

Do I need to go on? I think it’s undeniable that the Temple of Khaine is an important part of druchii society (or maybe you want me to put the word “current” in there somewhere). That’s not to say that it is the most important part, which is a matter of opinion. But that it is important is without question.

Possibilites aren't facts either. I could say 'Fact, it is theoretically possible World War 3 will start tommorow' Sure, it's possible. It's possible Witch Elves could have a great mechanic. They could also have a lame one. They could also have an average one. Same with anything else.
The important thing here is that it is possible. If it wasn’t possible (for instance, if their code forbade them from harming another being or such) then that would have serious negative impact on their suitability.

Sexy is always opinion and not fact. It can be a matter of fact that a majority of polled players would find them sexy (if such a poll exists), or that they are considered sexy by a majority of races in lore (if such a statement exists), but sexy is not an inherent attribute, it is bestowed upon them by interactions with players or with other characters in lore. Facts are self evident.
What people personally find sexy is definitely opinion… but that doesn’t take away the fact that people can recognize what is, in general, considered to be sexy. And it is fact because the text clearly states it as fact (or at least that they’re beautiful).

Recognizability is also not fact. It is recognizable to you. It might be recognizable to a lot of people. Again, the statement 'A poll exists which shows that 88% of respondents were capable of recognizing Witch Elves' or something along those lines, would be a fact. But recognizability is not a self evident truth.
Would you then deny that they are recognizable? Because you’d be the first.

Seriously. Everyone here in this thread is posting opinions. Yours are no better than anyone elses. There's only one honest fact that is indisputable in this thread.

'No one knows what class Mythic is going to do and how they are going to do them.'
True enough that. But I do know that there is definite truth in what I’ve posted and if Mythic doesn’t recognize some of those same truths then that’ll seriously damage my faith in them as game developers.

- Xurré

Grimfell Gromgear

08-14-2007, 06:48 AM

The important thing here is that it is possible. If it wasn’t possible (for instance, if their code forbade them from harming another being or such) then that would have serious negative impact on their suitability.

At this point in the game, even guessing which of the already mentioned classes is going to be the most fun to play or have the coolest mechanic is impossible, so speculating on ones that don't exist yet, while nice and informative, is far from capable of showing anything factual.

What people personally find sexy is definitely opinion… but that doesn’t take away the fact that people can recognize what is, in general, considered to be sexy. And it is fact because the text clearly states it as fact (or at least that they’re beautiful).

Indeed, the text states that they're sexy. Does the lore say 'All players consider Witch Elves to be sexy?' No. And not all players necessarily will. Who's to say? We don't have a poll on this from the average MMO player. We can speculate that they will, but they may come off as too creepy and violent to be sexy for average players.

Would you then deny that they are recognizable? Because you’d be the first.

I wouldn't be suprised if non Warhammer fans didn't find them recognizable.

True enough that. But I do know that there is definite truth in what I’ve posted and if Mythic doesn’t recognize some of those same truths then that’ll seriously damage my faith in them as game developers.

The only truth in what you've posted (aside from lore references) is that you are of the opinion that they are the best choice. Truth is a verifiable fact. I'm sorry but learn to differntiate fact from opinion.

I'm fine with you saying 'I don't like Mythics decision' or 'In my opinion Mythic made the wrong choice' or saying 'Mythic ignores the facts presented in GW's lore' but implying that your opinions are verifiable facts which must be obeyed is just something that personally irks me.

Seldaren

08-14-2007, 06:51 AM

Dang, I think ya'll need to take a time out or something. We'll know for a FACT in about a week or so.

The only fact that really matters is that we know there is a female only Elf career somewhere. Maybe two.
Realistically, there are only two options for Dark Elves. Witch Elf and Sorceress.

I can't even think of any on the High Elf side. Except maybe the Maiden Guard or whatever they're called.

There will be at least one female-only Elf career, Mythic has dropped enough hints that that is a basic Fact. And it would seem that it is most likely a Dark Elf career.

When someone thinks "Female-only Dark Elf Career", what is probably the first thing that springs to mind? Witch Elf (at least to me).
I think Witch Elves are basically a lock for being a playable career because of that. Maybe they'll even call them Brides of Khaine, that'd be fun :) .

Bulwyf

08-14-2007, 07:10 AM

I am really trying not to flame here but to put it simply opinions are not facts. Anything stated like "this is disctinctive, this is sexy, this is important" etc are OPINIONS.

Let me try this:

FACT! Cold One Knights are the most distinctive mounted class in DE society

ERROR! This is opinion! Someone else may feel Dark Riders are the most distinctive mounted class in DE society.

FACT! Assassins are important facets of DE culture.

ERROR! This is opinion! Seomeone else may feel Assassins are not important to DE culture. There is no true subjective test to verify the statement's veracity.

FACT! Black Guard are the toughest toe to toe fighters in DE military.

ERROR! Their TT stats certainly stand out but someone else may feel Executioners are better.

FACT! Corsairs have a distinctive appearance with their sea serpent scale cloaks.

ERROR! Someone else may feel that the addition of the cloak does not in fact make them distinctive.

Now look at this...

FACT! Cold One Knights are mounted on nauglir.

FACT! Witch Elves are drug users.

FACT! Corsairs wear sea serpent scale cloaks.

FACT! Dark Elves use slaves in their culture.

Do you see the difference? No one can dispute the facts I listed. But the other "facts" I listed are all opinions which while MAY be true and MAY have a majority agree with them are still just opinions no matter how I try to word them.

Noli me Tangere

08-14-2007, 07:17 AM

I wouldn't be suprised if non Warhammer fans didn't find them recognizable.

A point of note, if they're not Warhammer fans.. then they don't really know much about its Dark Elves anyways. What's recognizable and iconic weighs heavily on what you know of the setting, yes? :confused:

Anyone familiar with Warhammer, or at the least familiar with its Dark Elves should at least have a basic idea of them. Khaine and his brides are a big part of that, though, I'd argue that they are not the biggest.. there are several parts to that, but, we have four classes that will be dedicated to them. As such, I imagine they'll pull from four recognizable aspects of the Dark Elven race.

The only fact that really matters is that we know there is a female only Elf career somewhere.

Indeed, and, I mentioned this elsewhere.. given you have female Dwarves playable in a fashion that's not quite supported by the lore.. given you have male only chaos classes that are not male only in the lore..

Take a step back, and consider that whichever (High or Dark Elf) gets the female only careers.. they may just as readily add in a class to WAR as female only, even though in the lore it could be open to both genders. Just as readily, they could give male and female options to female only careers from the lore to the dark elves.

They've already shown that they're perfectly willing to go against the lore, where it suits them.

So you could have something like (and yes, this isn't right by the lore):

Female/Male Sorcerers/Sorceresses
Female Only Black Guards
Female Only Shadesetc..

And so on. Would it make sense by the lore? No. But, again, they've already shown they're perfectly willing to break the lore where gender is concerned.

It is likely? Well, I hope not.

And this is assuming they use a class from the lore at all, or as it exists in the lore, or even by the same name. They've implemented made up classes already. We could end up having the Sorcerer/Sorceress as a ranged DPS class, and have a completely made up class as the healer/support. They could just as readily take a class from the lore that has little to do with healing, rename it, and turn it into a healing/support class.

Mortissia

08-14-2007, 07:57 AM

Mythic has show that they can deviate from the strict letter of the lore when it makes sense to do so for gameplay purposes. They have NOT shown a penchant for deviating on a whim (nor can they). There is a great big fat difference between those two approaches.

Also, the designers have gone out of their way to craft classes (or at least to select existing TT classes) that have a great deal of distinctive flavor. The argument that Witch Elves are very distinctive is a very valid argument. It doesn't make WE a slam dunk, though, but it is a check mark in their Pro column.

PlagueLord

08-14-2007, 08:19 AM

hmm i might just have to roll a high elf....i just don't like to play female characters..high elves might be prissy (although gilead was not prissy) but at least they have male characters for all careers.

PlagueLord

08-14-2007, 08:22 AM

A point of note, if they're not Warhammer fans.. then they don't really know much about its Dark Elves anyways. What's recognizable and iconic weighs heavily on what you know of the setting, yes? :confused:

Anyone familiar with Warhammer, or at the least familiar with its Dark Elves should at least have a basic idea of them. Khaine and his brides are a big part of that, though, I'd argue that they are not the biggest.. there are several parts to that, but, we have four classes that will be dedicated to them. As such, I imagine they'll pull from four recognizable aspects of the Dark Elven race.

Indeed, and, I mentioned this elsewhere.. given you have female Dwarves playable in a fashion that's not quite supported by the lore.. given you have male only chaos classes that are not male only in the lore..

Take a step back, and consider that whichever (High or Dark Elf) gets the female only careers.. they may just as readily add in a class to WAR as female only, even though in the lore it could be open to both genders. Just as readily, they could give male and female options to female only careers from the lore to the dark elves.

They've already shown that they're perfectly willing to go against the lore, where it suits them.

So you could have something like (and yes, this isn't right by the lore):

Female/Male Sorcerers/Sorceresses
Female Only Black Guards
Female Only Shadesetc..

And so on. Would it make sense by the lore? No. But, again, they've already shown they're perfectly willing to break the lore where gender is concerned.

It is likely? Well, I hope not.

And this is assuming they use a class from the lore at all, or as it exists in the lore, or even by the same name. They've implemented made up classes already. We could end up having the Sorcerer/Sorceress as a ranged DPS class, and have a completely made up class as the healer/support. They could just as readily take a class from the lore that has little to do with healing, rename it, and turn it into a healing/support class.

female only blackguards?????? what drugs are you taking.

Noli me Tangere

08-14-2007, 08:24 AM

female only blackguards?????? what drugs are you taking.

You did read the rest of the post right?

My point wasn't that I thought female Blackguards were a possibility, it was that they wouldn't necessarily go with a lore based class, and that if they did they might not follow the gender restrictions present in the lore.

It's on the same line as Chosen being made male only, for example.

Mythic has show that they can deviate from the strict letter of the lore when it makes sense to do so for gameplay purposes. They have NOT shown a penchant for deviating on a whim (nor can they). There is a great big fat difference between those two approaches.None of the gender things they've done have any effect on game play. Adding in female playable dwarves that you can run off into combat has no effect on game play. Not allowing females to chaos classes that allow for them has no effect on gameplay.

Bulwyf

08-14-2007, 08:24 AM

female only blackguards?????? what drugs are you taking.

Female only Black Guard is on the same lines as male only Chosen and Maruaders. We know from lore there are male and female of all three classes but his point is that if Mythic can decide on a whim to change lore to gender restrict against the lore for two classes that Mythic can easily do it for another class.

Xurré

08-14-2007, 08:35 AM

Do you see the difference? No one can dispute the facts I listed. But the other "facts" I listed are all opinions which while MAY be true and MAY have a majority agree with them are still just opinions no matter how I try to word them.
Maybe I should change "fact" to "strongly supported supposition"... would that make people happy?

Wouldn't change the validity of the argument though.

- Xurré

Kellaris

08-14-2007, 08:45 AM

Being a strong supporter doesn’t preclude the possibility to be objective.
- Xurré
Maybe possibility exist, but not in this example ;)
And definately it is not You who shall judge if You are objective or not.

Also, I never said there aren’t points for Corsairs 9and the other classes) either; quite the opposite. I just lifted the ones for Witches out of the main post… look there for the rest of them.
- Xurré
I have read it all. Really. Before reading this, i was assasin supporter. After reading this, I become corsair supporter.
Your work here wos impressive. Only Your conclusion was flawed.

I haven’t seen any variety in Corsairs or Executioners at all. And I have seen a huge variety in Witch Elves… variety that is at least as recognizable as that shown in the various tier armors for the other classes.
- Xurré
It is becouse You are WE fan and You have time and motivation to look for some images. I do not hav time nor motivation to show You 20 different corsair arts/miniatures. This is not the proof that they do not exist.

Maybe I should make a note of the whole house thing, but it’s completely separate from the Temple of Khaine point.
- Xurré
Or it just don't play well with Your point of view...;)

If Sorceresses from the Convent, Malkith’s personal Black Guard, and Assassins and Executioners (both also part of the Temple of Khaine) are considered valid options for classes then so can Witch Elves be. Unless you want to remove all those as options because they’re part of temples and other separate groups.
- Xurré
It is stated that noble houses employ convent sorceresses and that they emply sorcerers not form convent. I don't belive in assasins and executioners either. BG... Well, that's a point. But also we do not know if they will be in or not. We shall see.

Perhaps, though I’d say if you can choose between just distinct and most distinct then, all else being equal, why wouldn’t you go with the best option?
- Xurré
Becouse all characters have to be distinct. But not necessery most distinct of all (slayer for example). There are more important factors that influence the decision

You can say whatever you want, but until you support what you say it doesn’t mean anything. How do Executioners best embody sustained damage over time?
- Xurré
Just like Hammerers.

Typical that of all the point you attack, you don’t attack the one that I clearly listed as a disadvantage. :roll:
- Xurré[/quote]
Why should I attack something that I aggree with??

We’ve been over that a hundred time already… Witches far from dress the same as Slayers and don’t have their armor problems. Not even close. Perhaps you just want to see it as the same as it would make it so easy for you to discount them, wouldn’t it.
- Xurré
To answer this, I would need an answer from someone that played the beta.
Does armours have magical abilities or not?

That’s because the way in which you challenge them is just by saying “this isn’t true”. That’s not how it works… if you want to challenge points you have to provide reasoning for it and support that reasoning.
- Xurré
If You really belive that, try to read my posts next time. :rolleyes:
And remember to be Objective ;)

Arcadox

08-14-2007, 08:48 AM

I think you're correct Xurre.

Out of all the possibilities, the sheer amount of evidence (most compelling being the cinematic, the "female-only" class, and the symbolic nature of the witch elf) I think the chances of witch elves being a playable class are 99%, and a 95% chance that, if in the game, they will be melee DPS class.

Corsairs, Assassins, executioners and beastmasters are all nice and whatnot, but are not nearly as compelling as the witch elf is. There is little evidence out there that makes me believe any of these classes have a good chance of making it into the melee DPS role. I could see it being the assassin, but it seems very slim in comparison to a WE.

I'm now more interesting in solving the other classes. Especially where sorceress will fit, and if it will have a gender restriction.

PlagueLord

08-14-2007, 09:35 AM

Female only Black Guard is on the same lines as male only Chosen and Maruaders. We know from lore there are male and female of all three classes but his point is that if Mythic can decide on a whim to change lore to gender restrict against the lore for two classes that Mythic can easily do it for another class.

chosen being male only makes sense though..female only black guard is not the same and doesn't make sense unless malekith prefers female bodyguards.

Bulwyf

08-14-2007, 09:35 AM

Maybe I should change "fact" to "strongly supported supposition"... would that make people happy?

Wouldn't change the validity of the argument though.

- Xurré

Yes, that is a distinction I can agree is seperate enough from "fact" to make. I do not agree with the all of them being strongly supported but as that is a difference of *opinion* you are more than welcome and indeed encouraged to post just that and to back it up if you so desire.

Edit: I just wanted to add that while I do not agree with all of Xurre's opinions I do respect the time and energy she puts into making them. I just wish for work's sake they were more concise to make for easier reading. ;)

Bulwyf

08-14-2007, 09:38 AM

chosen being male only makes sense though..female only black guard is not the same and doesn't make sense unless malekith prefers female bodyguards.

Chosen being male only does NOT make sense, sorry. The lore and fluff clearly show how non-sexist Chaos is and that both men and women can be Chosen and Marauders. Mythic is simply making their *own* decision and gender restricting two classes when the lore is 100% against it.

If Mythic decided to make Black Guard female only it would also 100% violate lore and it would be Mythic making their *own* decision.

PlagueLord

08-14-2007, 09:41 AM

easily put, if dark elves dps and other damage dealing class are going to be female well then i will have to roll a shadow-warrior or swordmaster...dark elves are going to be a bunch of girls blouses if half the careers are female only...imagine the the tantrums in the dark elf cities on that time of the month...there will be no mail box without a half naked witch elf dancing.

PlagueLord

08-14-2007, 09:45 AM

Noli me Tangere

08-14-2007, 09:48 AM

Chosen being male only does NOT make sense, sorry. The lore and fluff clearly show how non-sexist Chaos is and that both men and women can be Chosen and Marauders. Mythic is simply making their *own* decision and gender restricting two classes when the lore is 100% against it.

If Mythic decided to make Black Guard female only it would also 100% violate lore and it would be Mythic making their *own* decision.

Pretty much exactly.

but why make blackguard female only, why not just put the careers that are supposed to be female only in the game.. and by that not making a unisex career female only...chaos chosen are male because chosen are big burly norsemen, it was explained by paul barnet who actually works for gameswork shop.

No one's saying that they are.

That's exactly like saying: "Why not just use the careers that are already gender specific." Chosen aren't gender specific, both genders can be them, and then look at the Dwarf careers.

My point was very much in saying that because they have already decided to go against the lore on their gender options for races and classes, that they might do the same on other classes in the Dark Elf or High Elf races. It wasn't trying to say that Blackguards should be female only. It was an example of an equally inappropriate deviation from the lore, as what has already happened with Chaos careers and the Dwarf army and so on..

easily put, if dark elves dps and other damage dealing class are going to be female...dark elves are going to be a bunch of girls blouses if half the careers are female only...imagine the the tantrums in the dark elf cities on that time of the month...

.. .. .. I just don't have words for you.

Arcadox

08-14-2007, 09:51 AM

I don't understand you plaguelord. You say it's totally fine for chosen and marauders to be male-only. Yet if Dark Elves are given female-only classes, you say their all gonna be girls in blouses and that you will have to be high elf instead. Isn't it the same for girls who want to be chaos?

There is no reason why blackguard should be female only at all. However, they made Chosen and marauders male-only, when the evidence is clear they can be male or female. That's the argument here.

PlagueLord

08-14-2007, 09:52 AM

i'm just saying a class that is not female only shouldn't be made female only, i'm fine with the classes that are supposed to be female only being just that, in fairness not many girls will be playing warhammer but alot guys will...so making half a race female only is shutting out alot of player who don't want to play a female character..having gender restricted careers is the problem in the first place.

Arcadox

08-14-2007, 09:56 AM

but you've also stated that you are fine with chosen and marauders being male-only, which is not what they should be.

Selendor

08-14-2007, 10:00 AM

For the love of Khaine, nobody is seriously suggesting female-only Black Guard. Let's get back to the topic at hand, which is calling the Hags biased and watching them scream. :-P

Personally, I like Shades and Executioners. If I had a quote equivalent to the "female only careers" quote...say, something like "One of the biggest challenges was how to implement a Killing Blow mechanic", I wouldn't be nearly as defensive as Xurre is right now. We'll all know in a week and a half. I'm 99% certain that I'll get Shades, and 99% certain that I won't get Executioners, so I really don't see the point in me typing up long explanations for my choices. Waste of energy on my part.

PlagueLord

08-14-2007, 10:01 AM

but you've also stated that you are fine with chosen and marauders being male-only, which is not what they should be.

but there is no gender restricted classes on the order side and it seems destruction is full of these restriction which is not very consistent...i guess they are making up for female warrior priests or should i say warrior priestesses, by making chosen male only.there is no where in the lore either that says marauders and chosen are not male only.

PlagueLord

08-14-2007, 10:05 AM

all i want to know is why is there female/male only classes in the first place?

Bulwyf

08-14-2007, 10:39 AM

all i want to know is why is there female/male only classes in the first place?

That's the million dollar question for me as well. Order has zero gender restricted classes and yet Destruction may have as much as 8 out of 12 (!) classes be gender restricted or gender asexual. I do not agree with the decision to artificially make Chosen and Marauders male only and I will not agree with the decision to choose or artificially make two more classes (if it happens) female restricted.

Selendor

08-14-2007, 10:43 AM

*sigh* Well, the latest tin-foil hat theory is that it's a deliberate step that's being taken to counterbalance the overwhelming popularity of Destruction right now.

Now, back to dissecting the Hag's posts! :twisted:

Bluucandi

08-14-2007, 11:06 AM

yeah im guessing a quarter of the female toons in wow are male irl. It might be even higher...

My main was a female nightelf too :rolleyes: but she was a tank, and was happy being a tank until burning crusade came out

Half of the tanks in my guild were males playing female toons (man we had 5 regulars...). I never actually have met a female who actually wanted to tank. So basically if before BC you saw female toon warriors in Wrath, they were male.

Please, allow me to introduce myself. I am female and I have played tank classes (i.e. in DAoC: a reaver). I am disappointed that Chosen & Maruaders will be exclusively male but it won't hinder me from playing one. I like the mutating abilities of the Marauder. I find them amusing - I've shown off Paul's Maruader video numerous times.

If they do decide upon female-only DE tank classes, despite the discomfort I feel about bikini armor I might role a witch-elf if the class abilities are intrigueing enough.

Am I gonna call Mythic sexist? No. I'm not gonna waste time or energy analyzing that decision. It's a game FFS. If anything, my concern is the flack I may get from immature players for not rolling a healy type.

Also... I really don't get these guys leaning on the arguement that women a physically inferior therefore in this fantasy game it makes no sense for them to be in combant. Fantasy - the norms/traditions/cultural tabboos of real life do not apply here. Therefore, we can reason that women can indeed become kickass fighters. All it takes is some imagination and an open mind.

Thrakkesh

08-14-2007, 11:25 AM

Breathe people.

It's just a video game.

Bluucandi

08-14-2007, 11:32 AM

Breathe people.

It's just a video game.

That's what I'm sayin. ;)

Illya

08-14-2007, 11:34 AM

Please, allow me to introduce myself. I am female and I have played tank classes (i.e. in DAoC: a reaver). I am disappointed that Chosen & Maruaders will be exclusively male but it won't hinder me from playing one. I like the mutating abilities of the Marauder. I find them amusing - I've shown off Paul's Maruader video numerous times.

If they do decide upon female-only DE tank classes, despite the discomfort I feel about bikini armor I might role a witch-elf if the class abilities are intrigueing enough.

Am I gonna call Mythic sexist? No. I'm not gonna waste time or energy analyzing that decision. It's a game FFS. If anything, my concern is the flack I may get from immature players for not rolling a healy type.

Also... I really don't get these guys leaning on the arguement that women a physically inferior therefore in this fantasy game it makes no sense for them to be in combant. Fantasy - the norms/traditions/cultural tabboos of real life do not apply here. Therefore, we can reason that women can indeed become kickass fighters. All it takes is some imagination and an open mind.

Only idiots would make a statement that women in a game should be physically inferior. And I tend to ignore idiots, I'd recommend it to anyone else. As for girls rolling a healy type, and being critisized for not doing so, I can only wonder at what kind of people you play with. I guess that's why I stay with my guild members, and seldom use PUG's.

Tiervexx

08-14-2007, 11:41 AM

However, I ultimately have to agree somewhat with Tiev simply because people seem to not like the idea of someone physically strong having an advantage (it's an intimidation thing--people love the idea of a dark horse in fights, someone who looks like he shouldn't win, but does). All your speed and agility means nothing if a big guy actually gets his hands on you, and inertia is an ugly thing no matter how 'skilled' you are. I've always wondered why straight-up power is always downplayed by people. What is it we have against people who are physically strong? (Probably the meat-head stereotype).

Could not have put it better myself! Part of it is that nobody wants to feel inferior so when someone sees their better at something they want to believe they have something on them.

Girls think pretty-busty girls are dumb sluts...guys think body builders are dumb and have small wangs, same basic jealousy thing.

ANYWAY!

Back to the topic of the tread. I agree with Xurre a lot. Witch Elves > many other things.

Bluucandi

08-14-2007, 11:52 AM

Only idiots would make a statement that women in a game should be physically inferior. And I tend to ignore idiots, I'd recommend it to anyone else. As for girls rolling a healy type, and being critisized for not doing so, I can only wonder at what kind of people you play with. I guess that's why I stay with my guild members, and seldom use PUG's.

Oh honey. I roled a female firbolg hero once and I had a male player make this exact statment: "you are a female gamer therefore you should only be playing healers and she should be hawt looking." I replied "I pay for this account myself; I play what I damned well feel like."

Heh. Yeah, from time to time I have to lean on my best friend, /ignore, but I've been playing MMOs for several years now and I chose my in-game friends very carefully these days.

Bulwyf

08-14-2007, 12:03 PM

Oh honey. I roled a female firbolg hero once and I had a male player make this exact statment: "you are a female gamer therefore you should only be playing healers and she should be hawt looking." I replied "I pay for this account myself; I play what I damned well feel like."

Heh. Yeah, from time to time I have to lean on my best friend, /ignore, but I've been playing MMOs for several years now and I chose my in-game friends very carefully these days.

You are not alone. My wife vastly prefers playing melee characters to healers and she's heard all of that nonsense before as well. It doesn't faze her. You have the correct attitude: its your account, play what YOU want to play. Not what some jerk who just wants a healbot wants.

havik110

08-14-2007, 12:28 PM

Please, allow me to introduce myself. I am female and I have played tank classes (i.e. in DAoC: a reaver). I am disappointed that Chosen & Maruaders will be exclusively male but it won't hinder me from playing one. I like the mutating abilities of the Marauder. I find them amusing - I've shown off Paul's Maruader video numerous times.

If they do decide upon female-only DE tank classes, despite the discomfort I feel about bikini armor I might role a witch-elf if the class abilities are intrigueing enough.

Am I gonna call Mythic sexist? No. I'm not gonna waste time or energy analyzing that decision. It's a game FFS. If anything, my concern is the flack I may get from immature players for not rolling a healy type.

Also... I really don't get these guys leaning on the arguement that women a physically inferior therefore in this fantasy game it makes no sense for them to be in combant. Fantasy - the norms/traditions/cultural tabboos of real life do not apply here. Therefore, we can reason that women can indeed become kickass fighters. All it takes is some imagination and an open mind.

umm hi, i dont know why you introduced yourself to my post but I don't think I said anything sexist.
I was saying that on the few servers I played on and with the many women I have played with over the years I really only ever had 1 woman playing a tank, and it was just an alt. I had plenty of friends playing rogues and mages and (GRRR) locks and shadow priests. I really didnt know that many female shamans surprisingly. Im sure there were many But if you took it as me saying women dont tank then im sorry...

Bluucandi

08-14-2007, 12:49 PM

umm hi, i dont know why you introduced yourself to my post but I don't think I said anything sexist.
I was saying that on the few servers I played on and with the many women I have played with over the years I really only ever had 1 woman playing a tank, and it was just an alt. I had plenty of friends playing rogues and mages and (GRRR) locks and shadow priests. I really didnt know that many female shamans surprisingly. Im sure there were many But if you took it as me saying women dont tank then im sorry...

No, sorry if I came across defensively to you. I will say I am dismayed by other's opinions and mentalities.

Thrakkesh

08-14-2007, 04:27 PM

Thoden Firehammer

08-14-2007, 04:45 PM

Wait, who says women can't be strong?

My fiance's a massage therapist, and she has tons more upper body strength then I do (heavy triggerpoint stuff). She can totally overpower me.

It's embarassing, but I kind of feel that might be due to the fact I'm cuturally supposed to be the stronger of the pair.

Strength has little to do with gender, believe it or not. You know why most women are typically weaker then men? Because that's the culutural norm. Women are expected to be, and so frankly often they don't condition themselves, and thus end up weaker. You see plenty of exceptions to that almost anywhere, but it lends itself to the stereotype.

Actualy i'm going to correct you here, not only is it a cultural thing but it's also genetic, males geneticly have more muscle mass then females, now I am not saying that a female body builder can not beat a male who doesn't work out... no that's just stupid, i'm just saying that men on average naturaly have more muscle mass.

Now personaly, I have no problem seeing a female melee fighter, personaly I never gave it a thought.

Ironicaly I like to play the casting classes, ... I don't know but being the evil demeted warlock/necromancer always seemed appealing to me .. see this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcbazH6aE2g

Although I also like melee dps, but that's a different story...

Thrakkesh

08-14-2007, 04:49 PM

Actualy i'm going to correct you here, not only is it a cultural thing but it's also genetic, males geneticly have more muscle mass then females, now I am not saying that a female body builder can not beat a male who doesn't work out... no that's just stupid, i'm just saying that men on average naturaly have more muscle mass.

Now personaly, I have no problem seeing a female melee fighter, personaly I never gave it a thought.

Ironicaly I like to play the casting classes, ... I don't know but being the evil demeted warlock/necromancer always seemed appealing to me .. see this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcbazH6aE2g

Although I also like melee dps, but that's a different story...

Genetically there might be a possability, but in my experience few people truly meet their genetic maximum. A woman might be born with less muscle mass, but that doesn't mean she can't develop what she has to make her 'strong enough' or stronger then some. That's also an average--there are exceptions to the rule. If a man and a woman both work out an equal number of hours doing an equal amount of weight, true the guy might end up physically stronger, but that doesnt' make the 'woman' physically weak.

Thoden Firehammer

08-14-2007, 04:53 PM

Genetically there might be a possability, but in my experience few people truly meet their genetic maximum. A woman might be born with less muscle mass, but that doesn't mean she can't develop what she has to make her 'strong enough' or stronger then some. That's also an average--there are exceptions to the rule. If a man and a woman both work out an equal number of hours doing an equal amount of weight, true the guy might end up physically stronger, but that doesnt' make the 'woman' physically weak.

I already said that ... and genetic maximum?
Look, I said that males genentic have more muscle mass, I also said that a female body builder could beat a male who didn't work out. who who did not work out as much as the female body builder, please don't attack my post when it agrees with you.

and I never said women are physicaly weak I only said geneticly males have more muscle mass

Thrakkesh

08-14-2007, 04:56 PM

I already said that ... and genetic maximum?
Look, I said that males genentic have more muscle mass, I also said that a female body builder could beat a male who didn't work out. who who did not work out as much as the female body builder, please don't attack my post when it agrees with you.

and I never said women are physicaly weak I only said geneticly males have more muscle mass

I uhh, wasn't attacking you. I was kind of agreeing with you, just sort of elaborating in my own words, I guess? and yeah, genetic maximum was clunky, probably should have picked something a bit more flowery.

Yeesh. No need to get defensive. If what I'm saying more or less agrees with what you said, I'm agreeing with you.

Thoden Firehammer

08-14-2007, 05:02 PM

I uhh, wasn't attacking you. I was kind of agreeing with you, just sort of elaborating in my own words, I guess? and yeah, genetic maximum was clunky, probably should have picked something a bit more flowery.

Yeesh. No need to get defensive. If what I'm saying more or less agrees with what you said, I'm agreeing with you.

I guess I was a little blunt, which was also due to the fact that I didnt feel like elaborating, if it felt like an agressive post i'm sorry

Also I hoped you enjoyed the link

Selandri

08-14-2007, 07:50 PM

but there is no gender restricted classes on the order side and it seems destruction is full of these restriction which is not very consistent...i guess they are making up for female warrior priests or should i say warrior priestesses, by making chosen male only.there is no where in the lore either that says marauders and chosen are not male only.

You mean APART from the dozen or so examples I've given? From the Army book even, which is about as canon as it gets?

Calling someone biased is simply a cop out argument. If you can deny the points without saying "Well you're biased so your points are invalid" it might be worth reading.

Corsairs, according to the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay Old World Bestiary normally stay with their ships, though they do raid towns periodically.

As to the whole fact / opinion thing, I'm sure there are a few folks out there who believe the world is flat. Does that make it an opinion when I say it's round? Xurres facts had enough back up for the porpoises of this discussion, nitpicking at her use of the English language is silly.

As said, we'll find out soon enough. I'd like to see Witch Elves, but I'd also like to see THQ do a Warhammer Fantasy RTS, I'm not holding my breath on either.

Morag

08-14-2007, 09:15 PM

As to the whole fact / opinion thing, I'm sure there are a few folks out there who believe the world is flat. Does that make it an opinion when I say it's round? Xurres facts had enough back up for the porpoises of this discussion, nitpicking at her use of the English language is silly.

No, because it is scientific fact that the world is indeed round. Ignorance does not change fact. Despite what Xurré calls them they are still just her opinions, no one has the facts here yet. We're all in the same boat waiting for them to release the Dark Elf information. No one is nitpicking, stating that your personal opinion is fact is a fairly large error. If we wanted to nitpick we would say something like, "porpoises are mammals related to whales and dolphins".

Black Razor

08-15-2007, 12:18 AM

Thoden Firehammer

08-15-2007, 12:33 AM

Theres alot of the old 'Men are stronger then woman so they would win in a fight!' going around in the thread .. I thought we grew past that but apparently not. And I have seen more then a few MMA references chucked out ...as if that has ANYTHING to do with a fantasy RPG ... as a point to state that the big muscle guy always wins and yadda yadda yadda. In a fist or MMA fight that may or may not (its not ..but I'm not in the mood to argue it) be true .. however we arn't talking about hand to hand combat in terms of this game .. we are talking about melee weapon on weapon fighting. As anyone who has studied a weapon style .. or anyone with common sense .. can tell you finesse, agility, and motor control are equally as important .. if not more so .. then strength when using most melee weapons. In those categories women are every bit equal if not in some cases naturally more inclined then males and certainly enough so as to balance any advantage natural strength difference would give. I wont even bring up things like pain resistance and stamina. Point of it all is theres absolutely no reason in a sword and sorcery video game even if trying to base on realism that men and women cannot face off as equals. To say otherwise is cheuvanistic and foolish.

I know this wasn't directed at me(or maybe it even was)

But I was meerly dicussing strenght which it is proven that men typicaly have more muscel mass than women, however I agree with you that it takes more than just skill to win a fight, and I will agree that women can and typicaly are more agile.

However, when refering to history and the pre-gunpowder wars we had back then, agility didn't really help you. It was a very cramped fight, I will refer to one of Hanibal's victories when he sourrounded a much larger force with his smaller force, these battles lack any ability to manouver as a single fighter, you are cramped up with the person next you, people in front and behind, a real chaotic thing for sure. They also wore a good deal of armor which most fantasy games tend to lack in. This means that it would be even harder for you to manouver.

Now when we translate this to a FANTASY game it doesn't mater, the whole thing I typed right above this is now completly pointless. You have to realize this is fantasy and in fantasy things typicaly tend to diviate from the norm, and I personaly do not care, I think in a game it is perfectly fair to allow Females to choose avatars that are their own gender, and still wish to fight in the front.

Now that I think I made my point I will give you this

FFFRRRREEEEEEDDDOOOOOMMMM!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhav_fl0hhQ