What's this 'twisting' exactly?

[kingsword]

As I didn't play DAoC, I felt a bit intimidated after checking this (http://only-war.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15347) (massive scan images) out. Summarizing, they compare KotBS to bards of other games which 'can' (I get this as 'has to do to be not crap') do 'twisting': "keeping multiple commands simultaneously to increase effectiveness of the group".

But I still don't get how exactly this works. As much as I like supporting others, I expected KotBS to be a more straightforward character with a focus on melee (I don't expect the best damage but something in between the table provided I go for suitable tactics&gear) compared to healer classes. So can you describe what this is please?

I'm quite tired of "you're great with a group but crap as solo" notion as I was playing a WoW paladin, that's another reason KotBS looked more appealing to me than WP.

[jkdfhk]

Im no expert but id say he will be able to do decent damage and he is also the tanking class (I presume) for the Empire.
PS:Dont wear the funny looking helmets if you be one they are rediculous.

[kingsword]

Helmets are awesome, I'll certainly have them on!

Just the playing mechanics of the class is making me uneasy, their look, lore and concept are awesome for my taste.

[Vikingkingq]

Twisting is combining multiple buffs at the same time to create new effects. It's something that Mythic used in DAoC.

[Aqe]

Bards songs in DAoC lasted for 5-10 sec (dont remember exact) it allowed the bard to play a new song while the first is running and then go back to first so it doesn't expire. Constantly changing songs is called twisting.

Paladins in Daoc could also twist their chants but it was much easier because they where instants.

(Bards with bad instruments could run out of endurance and paladins ran out of power from twisting to much)

[kingsword]

Sounds pretty cumbersome, I hope KotBS won't have to play the keyboard like a piano just to get some buffs running. :|

[vanza001]

Yeah I see things like twisting and kiting as playstyles to be entirely focused on PvE. Those tactics will easily be outsmarted by a player. No class should depend on these techniques because this will weaken them considerably.

[Vikingkingq]

Sounds pretty cumbersome, I hope KotBS won't have to play the keyboard like a piano just to get some buffs running. :|

No. It's more that KotBS who can play the keyboard like a piano, with good timing, and so forth, will be the best at their jobs.

[Jonas]

Sounds pretty cumbersome, I hope KotBS won't have to play the keyboard like a piano just to get some buffs running. :|

It's probable that you'll be able to keep up 1 buff pretty easily.

As you start adding more into the mix, it becomes trickier and trickier.

Personally I am excited as anything that the class is seen as the 'advanced' tank of Order. I love a challenge and am looking forwards to being as good as I can be.

Yeah I see things like twisting and kiting as playstyles to be entirely focused on PvE. Those tactics will easily be outsmarted by a player. No class should depend on these techniques because this will weaken them considerably.

... huh?

[Jonesy]

Combing a tank with a bard seems like an odd choice. Coming from WoW, I can't imagine that I would enjoy having to recast Commanding Shout and Battle Shout every few seconds as my primary contribution to the group.

Hopefully this will be cleared up a little more once people get to play these guys at the public events and whatnot.

[Juther - Holy Knight]

I have been using paladin since 2002, on daoc. and i still use it now.

press 6 buttons any each 6/8 seconds + use combat styles + movement + alltheotherthings is really difficult, if you wish to play correctly and efficently.
i hope that some kind of macro will be implementend on War to help in twisting..... or maybe a different way of twinsting.

in addiction i hope that the KotBS would't be a simple " chant group buffing class"....

tanking + meele dps ( movement from front line to back line and viceversa )

aoe group buffing

mounted combat.

seems to be the most challaging class right now :), isen't it?

[kingsword]

Yes, I didn't like how it's described in that interview: "You need to be very skilled to get the best efficiency" compared to "you'll bash people with mindless mashing as a marauder". This translates to something like "pay more for the same amount/pay same for less amount" to me. :(

Empowering group is an idea that I like but how will that count in RvR? Will it be less powerful in 1vs1 encounters? How powerful are the buffs? Will they scale and get distributed with more people in the group? If they work over static numbers, their effects will be diminished as characters get more powerful gear.

And I really would like to know if "being skilled" means "able to withstand tedium" as many other games boil it down to that. Also another thing is that they're mentioned to be close quarters effects, with these kinds of large and open areas and long range casting abilities, will ranged characters be able to receive those buffs? Or will we go through this 'twisting' just for WH's?

Not enough information as you say but this is unnerving for me as being the selfless buffer in MMO's proved to be unrewarding from my experiences. You either have to do what your character is capable of or you're considered crap instead of considered being skilled when you fulfill that potential with hard work and attention.

KotBS concept has really drawn me to WAR just by itself so I'm feeling disillusioned right now, I had intended to ditch my WoW paladin for it. :rolleyes:

[Scirrocco]

I don't think its pay more for the same. its tactics, that allow you to adapt faster. The marauders mutations allow something similar, but we're led to believe they are hard to do.

So if a marauder finds an imperial, he can switch to his anticaster mutation for wizards, damage mutation for witch hunters, armor piercing mutaiton for warrior priests. But think about that in any sort of group pvp. You turn on your anti-caster arm to kill a wizard, but then your stuck with a mutation that sucks for fighting the warrior priest and KOTBS he was running with.

Maybe as a KOTBS you can have damage buffs to take out the lightly armored marauder quicker, then switch to a morale gaining buff to take out the heavily armored but lower damage Chosen, so you can hit him with strong morale attacks to take him out.

These are just possible examples of how the two classes might play.

[Montague]

I have been using paladin since 2002, on daoc. and i still use it now.

press 6 buttons any each 6/8 seconds + use combat styles + movement + alltheotherthings is really difficult, if you wish to play correctly and efficently.
i hope that some kind of macro will be implementend on War to help in twisting..... or maybe a different way of twinsting.

in addiction i hope that the KotBS would't be a simple " chant group buffing class"....

tanking + meele dps ( movement from front line to back line and viceversa )

aoe group buffing

mounted combat.

seems to be the most challaging class right now :), isen't it?

Josh posted a few months ago that 3 buffs would basically take up all of a knight's time and require some skill. So my guess is right now all of the Knight's buffs are 6 seconds duration.

I'm personally not too thrilled with the looks of the implementation and probably will play something else. Had enough of carrying everyone's lunch on my WoW paladin.

WTB plate-wearing Knight/Paladin class that kills enemies, not enables other people to kill them for him.

[checkthis5000]

Combing a tank with a bard seems like an odd choice. Coming from WoW, I can't imagine that I would enjoy having to recast Commanding Shout and Battle Shout every few seconds as my primary contribution to the group.

Hopefully this will be cleared up a little more once people get to play these guys at the public events and whatnot.

I think you're making a large assumption suggesting that that is the Primary Contribution. The Primary Contribution will be protecting people and being a Tank. Secondary will be the AoE buffs that enhance everyone's ability to fight.

It makes sense for a Knight (hopefully on horseback) in the middle of the troops to yell encouraging things and keep his companions in the fight.

I always thought someone playing songs was a bit silly. Someone screaming battle shouts and encouragement is definitely better.

[Jonesy]

Well, "primary contribution" was a bit of an exaggeration-- at any rate, casting a buff every 5 seconds is probably the least exciting "gimmick" I've heard about for the revealed classes thus far. Maybe it's more fun in practice, but it's not really what I was envisioning from either the class's description or the look of the guys with the huge swords and polearms.

That's not to say I'm averse to offering support capabilities beyond simple tanking (that line from the career page, "As a result, their chances of survival will increase to the point where a reckless person might even become hopeful about the prospects of victory," is wonderful), but, not having played one of these classes being mentioned as utilizing similar mechanics to this "twisting" stuff, it just doesn't sound very "joyful."

I find it interesting how different the career sounds between the "playing as one" and "playing against one" paragraphs.

From the playing as one: You will issue commands to your allies and those who stay close and heed your words will receive invaluable benefits on the battlefield. Truly exceptional commanders will be able to direct their allies in multiple areas simultaneously – but this will require total focus and determination.

Playing against: Heavily armored, notoriously crafty and exceptionally dangerous at close when in the midst of their troops, the Knight of the Blazing Sun should be a prime target for any assault... the Knights of the Blazing Sun are not at all averse to trickery and feel no obligation to engage their foes with what some regard as “honor.” A Knight of the Blazing Sun is more than willing to disarm an opponent and then take their head.

I guess I'm wanting to hear more about that second side of the Knight. =P Have they discussed that anywhere? I didn't even know about that article where the guy's talking about bard stuff until today.

[kingsword]

I've been checking on some of the other forums and several old DAoC players changed their minds about playing one after they heard about twisting. Even more intimidating for a newcomer to this system like me. :(

[Ofaloaf]

Even if you're not good at twisting, you're still a knight in shining armor with a really big sword. One can still play the knight without heavy-duty twisting, although you probably won't be quite as effective as someone who regularly uses his buffs in appropriate mixes. It'll work, though.

[kingsword]

I really do hope so, the notion is spamming buff buttons with a zweihander irks me, I don't want to be the victim of my idealism again. :???:

[Feigro]

Personally I love the idea. To me, it sounds like a Paladin without the burden of worrying about healing. With a more elaborate aura/blessing system. Which sounds pretty nifty. Obviously there's the bard connection as well, but I'm connecting things to a more recent, and widespread class that people could Identify better with.

I like the idea of a Tank that's a buffer as well. Just based on the general idea of the tank and what they're supposed to do. Tanks are supposed to be able to withstand damage, and they're supposed to be able to survive. Right there that means any group with a Kotbs in it will have a source of strength that is hard to remove. Second, a "behind the scenes" incentive to attack the tank is needed. The Ironbreaker has this via grudge, leave him alone and his power ramps up. Is it a dire concern? no. But it's something to be brought into consideration on the grand scheme of things. The Kotbs, his presence alone strengthens his group. No matter how much the increase is, or in what areas is essentially irrelevant. He's buffing the group in some way by being there. So the consideration for the Kotbs is now - Kill him first, the rest of the group may be easier.

Once again, it's not a "must kill the tank first!" mechanic, but it's something that brings that option into consideration on the grand scale of things. It puts the Tank in the roster to be killed off at some level of importance. Even if you do remain with the "healer first" strat, perhaps you'll put the Kotbs second, as once the healer, and then this particular tank (who's strengthening the group) are down, the rest may be easy.

It prevents the scenario where the Tank is handled last because he's A.) the hardest to kill (on a general level), but B.) Not a large threat Dmg wise. Further, Mythic is adding in these considerations without making the classes identical. For the Black Orc, he's a pretty decent controller, which is typically unusual in beefy characters. The Ironbreaker's DPS and effectiveness in battle scales up over time. Here now, the Kotbs is a group buffer.

All Tanks, all hard to kill. All now with valid reasons to consider taking them out at some point, even if it's not first, in the grand scheme of strategy. Due to what they offer to the battle, other than dmg (which they also offer, albeit not at the level of dmg classes). They're added mechanics combined with the fact that they're tough to kill make them interesting opponents to consider strategically.

[kingsword]

True enough but those buffs would need to be overpoweringly strong to make it an incentive enough. I'd guess that the main reason to prioritize a knight would be due to those positional attacks, if they're indeed there.

Say, a shout increases your HP by 10%, that's not good enough to pound on a tank instead of a cloth-wearing caster. I don't think that any game could have AoE buffs any more powerful than such. Maybe something like a party-wide movement speed increase but even that would be very powerful for a PvP-oriented game.

[Feigro]

Not necessarily. Like I said, it's not incentive to attack them instead of everything else absolutely. It's something that makes them something that's worth attacking period.

For example, I highly doubt the increase of DPS the Ironbreaker gets from being in combat is "overpowering". That doesn't mean the IB doesn't become a worthwhile target to some extent. It's about not absolutes. It's about valid options.

The Kotbs doesn't have to become the only rationale target. It should stand as a relatively equal option with most everything else. An attacking group should equally benefit from destroying various different archetypes in different orders. However this benefit should be different depending on what's killed.

Of course, that's in an ideal system. Something that WAR won't obtain, as it's pretty much impossible. However, that doesn't change the fact that removing a Kotbs from a group will remove group benefits. No matter how large or small that benefit is. You're still effectively weakening the group by removing a player, and the buffs that coincide with that players presence.

[Vikingkingq]

True enough but those buffs would need to be overpoweringly strong to make it an incentive enough. I'd guess that the main reason to prioritize a knight would be due to those positional attacks, if they're indeed there.

Say, a shout increases your HP by 10%, that's not good enough to pound on a tank instead of a cloth-wearing caster. I don't think that any game could have AoE buffs any more powerful than such. Maybe something like a party-wide movement speed increase but even that would be very powerful for a PvP-oriented game.

They wouldn't have to be over-poweringly strong, and in fact could be balanced quite easily since they only affect members of your group, and have a range of effect centered around the tank.

[Garok]

Bit of confusion here with how this system will work, esspecially with those people who have not played DAOC.

Im guessing you wont need to use every blessing/chant in every situation.

Chants are insta cast (with a 1 sec cool down) and last 6 secs and effect all players in X radius of the player. Multiple effects can be up at the same time.

So Lets give the charecter 6 "chants". Lets say hypatheticly it has the same style chants as a DAOC pally (changeing it abit to fit in with the WAR combat system)
Celerity Chant (mele attack speed increased by X%)
Damage add chant (adds a damage amount based on your wep speed)
AF chant (Ads to your armour facter decreaseing mele damage done)
Magic Resistant Chant A (adds to your magic resistance absorbing X % of magic damage types 1 and 2)
Magic Resistant Chant B (adds to your magic resistance absorbing X % of magic damage types 3 and 4)
Moral Chant (In DAOC the pally used and endurace chant to regen the groups endurance to enable continous mele special attacks. Lets say hyperthicly KOBS has a simular one that increases the amount of Moral you group gainsthorugh combat)


Bashing stuff up

For example your on the offence working as part of the tank chain which at this time is not being attacked.

Now there is no point in useing the AF chant or the magic resist chants since no damage is being taken and your outta of range or the support classes so you will only be twisting attackspeed, dam add and moral (to boost the trains and your own damage). Useing special attacks inbetween

Protecting others

Now you holding back protecting a Healer/Caster from a Mele Damage dealer and a random caster useing spell damage type 3. No point in useing magic resistance A since that damage type is not being used. So you will be twisting Af chant to increase your won and the Caster/healers mele absorb and Magic resist chant B to absorb some of the enemy casters damage while useing your defensive mele moves to snare/diable the mele damaeg dealer.

[Jonesy]

And did anyone actually enjoy this system, or was it viewed as being as big of a hassle as it seems?

[Garok]

System worked and it was more fun that the generic "I press 4 mele move buttons" type play.

Its not as complicated as it sounds .. you just click the chants you want in quick sucsession .. then use the mele moves you want ... then refresh the chants again by clicking on them... then use the mele moves you want..

[kingsword]

Doesn't these already eat up all the time for ability usage? It looks like it'll reduce KotBS to a mere auto-attack buffer if it'll be like that. Cannot see the skill component either, more of a choice of being the hammer (buffing) or nail (actually doing stuff yourself).

Gah, looks extremely tedious but I'll wait for the actual ability list still. I'd very much prefer if only one of those buffs could be active at any one time instead.

Already tired of 'supporting other to my detriment' type of play. Supporting is cool but doing it 7/24 because it's the only viable choice is not however. We'll see ability list soon enough I hope.

[Axxar]

I like the sound of this "twisting" system. It seems much more interesting than regular buffing. Adding complexity to something doesn't necessarily means it's a "hassle". It can also mean increased depth and more interesting play style.

[Garok]

Doesn't these already eat up all the time for ability usage? It looks like it'll reduce KotBS to a mere auto-attack buffer if it'll be like that. Cannot see the skill component either, more of a choice of being the hammer (buffing) or nail (actually doing stuff yourself).

The importance of each buff will be limited to each encounter and your group make up I would imagin. There is more skill in choosng what buff chants to twist then just wacking your mele attack buttons in sequence. I also sure that if you just use you buffs and auto attack you will not be effective, in the same way as if you just use your mele specials you will not be effective. If you learn what buffs to pop and what mele moves to use in sequence then however you will be blooming effective.

Lets say you have a stun move that becomes available for 5 secs after you crit somebody keeping a haste chant up, allowing you more chance to get a hit in and sacraficeing some of the other chants to get more hits in will be the most effective effective to your group.(quicker swing time meening more chances to hit and that hit not being blocked parryed or evaded).


Already tired of 'supporting other to my detriment' type of play. Supporting is cool but doing it 7/24 because it's the only viable choice is not however. We'll see ability list soon enough I hope.

Wont really be a support class. As a man tank your not gonna have the damage output of a light tank/caster.. if you did there would be no point in haveing light tanks or damage casters. The system just adds in a different element to make sure all of the tank classes dont play the same.

A good tank class should be fun to play. But its generally for people who get there fun from know what to do in different situations. People who just like Big numbers and a less complex style of play generally have more fun as a light tak arcatype.

[Damienx247]

Doesn't these already eat up all the time for ability usage? It looks like it'll reduce KotBS to a mere auto-attack buffer if it'll be like that. Cannot see the skill component either, more of a choice of being the hammer (buffing) or nail (actually doing stuff yourself).

Gah, looks extremely tedious but I'll wait for the actual ability list still. I'd very much prefer if only one of those buffs could be active at any one time instead.

Already tired of 'supporting other to my detriment' type of play. Supporting is cool but doing it 7/24 because it's the only viable choice is not however. We'll see ability list soon enough I hope.

Me too, I'm hoping when Tank classes equip two-handers they can toggle their auto attacks between a hard hitting overhead swing and a weaker horizontal "cleave" that while slower and slightly less accurate can tag up to three targets per swing along with any other offensive abilities tanks can utilize when they put down the board and equip a real weapon;). Giving two-handers a cleave attack without requiring leveling up to earn a similar ability would balance its slower rate of attack, and put WAR ahead of most MMO's concepts on the use of a two-hander in battle. Sides swinging and a melee dps, healer/caster, and an opposing tank with one swing is as sure a way to get their attention just as well as a taunt.:twisted:

[Flegler]

Personally I love the idea. To me, it sounds like a Paladin without the burden of worrying about healing. With a more elaborate aura/blessing system.

This is exactly what worries me - WoW's paladin was all buffs and autoattack and it was the most boring class in the game, but at least humans could be warriors instead if they wanted. I'm looking for a hard-as-nails front line fighter and I don't want to have to play a dwarf.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

Doesn't these already eat up all the time for ability usage? It looks like it'll reduce KotBS to a mere auto-attack buffer if it'll be like that. Cannot see the skill component either, more of a choice of being the hammer (buffing) or nail (actually doing stuff yourself).

Gah, looks extremely tedious but I'll wait for the actual ability list still. I'd very much prefer if only one of those buffs could be active at any one time instead.

Already tired of 'supporting other to my detriment' type of play. Supporting is cool but doing it 7/24 because it's the only viable choice is not however. We'll see ability list soon enough I hope.
easy there, we haven't heard anything about the class.
no ability's, were still guessing how the mount thing works.

and if you still dont like it, you'll have to roll another char, or play an empire knight.
i for one, am pretty happy with this system.
it makes good knights stand out, instead of the 'L0LZZX I RE ZEH KIGHT PAWNER, LULZ@!!!!'.

with the twisting, you wont be bashing the same melee moves over and over and over and over and over and over(you get my drift8))

[Jonesy]

...Instead you'll be bashing the same chant buttons over and over and over and over...

No use arguing much until we see it, but the notion that repetitive buffing is somehow more skill-oriented than the use of melee attack abilities is pretty ridiculous. It's all just pressing buttons, and there would be more effective, skillful ways of pressing those buttons either way.

And a WoW paladin without the healing would be absolutely horrific to play, by the way. Healing was the most interesting thing you could do with that class. I'm not sure that's where the Knight would end up, though.

[bladecloud]

Twisting is not fun, no freaking idea why they want to add this to a class in WAR.

Theres a good reason MMO's stopped using this system after EQ and DAOC.

It pretty much ensures you must use key-bindings for your abilities, not that I don't do that already but I know theres a few people who are too stubborn. In daoc you could get away with it because of the serious lack of abilities and /stick.

[Reonack]

If it ends up anything like the Everquest Bard every KotBS will end with carpal tunnel syndrome. It was a painful and tiring, tapping 1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4 all the while trying to keep yourself in melee range and god help you if you needed to mez lol

I'm sure it won't be that bad at least I hope not :shock:

[Norick13]

True enough but those buffs would need to be overpoweringly strong to make it an incentive enough. I'd guess that the main reason to prioritize a knight would be due to those positional attacks, if they're indeed there.

Say, a shout increases your HP by 10%, that's not good enough to pound on a tank instead of a cloth-wearing caster. I don't think that any game could have AoE buffs any more powerful than such. Maybe something like a party-wide movement speed increase but even that would be very powerful for a PvP-oriented game.


Just look at some of the other tanks abilities. They will undoubtedly give the KoTBS abilities that makes it very difficult for enemies to kill his allies...like other tanks.


edit: But I agree with the 'twisting' mechanic. I see how a few people might find it fun, If it's anything like a Bard from other games it will make KoTBS extremely unpopular, and I know personally I'll be playing Chosen/Ironbreaker instead of KoTBS.

[Grandmaster]

If this twisting turns out to be bad, I will have to roll another class, even though I was really looking forward to play a real Knight for once and in Warhammer as well !

[kingsword]

This is my biggest concern with WAR right now because I really wanted to play one as well. But all this twisting business sounds dreadful, I'm hoping that they revise it during beta. :(

[Jonas]

Frankly, play the class/game, not the ideal and you won't be disappointed. There's always going to be lots of people who like lots of different things and unfortunately, game designers are not always going to link your preferred concept to your preferred gameplay style. That's when you have to be realistic and admit that the class is not right for you, as much as you'd like to it be.

It might take you some time to find the class that plays the way you want them to; but, you'll be happiest when you do find it..

[kingsword]

I have been checking other classes' info and also the experiences of people who played them so far, none has a style of playing that's irking me. Save for KotBS and 'twisting'. And I've seen quite a bit of posts from DAoC players telling that they'll avoid the class. Surely it's not a just matter of my 'ideal'.

Don't confuse these pleas with those from people who want Chosens to be invincible terminators. What I'm asking is being able to play a KotBS without spamming buffs non-stop. Yes, I understood that you can 'not do it' but we'd be considered useless or unskilled if that's not the norm.

[Jonas]

There have been a number of people who like twisting. I know it's gonna be harder for me because of my Aussie ping, but I am interested to see how it goes.

I'm not going to try and reassure anyone, because it's hardly worth being all 'worried about this game' at this point in it's development. However, if the devs want to avoid healers who just heal and heal and heal and heal, I suspect they're going to avoid tanks who just buff and buff and buff and buff.

[Axxar]

I have been checking other classes' info and also the experiences of people who played them so far, none has a style of playing that's irking me. Save for KotBS and 'twisting'. And I've seen quite a bit of posts from DAoC players telling that they'll avoid the class. Surely it's not a just matter of my 'ideal'.I think it is. I kind of feel like playing EVERY SINGLE ONE of the careers, except the Engineer. I'm very surprised that so far nothing appeals to you.

[Jonas]

I think it is. I kind of feel like playing EVERY SINGLE ONE of the careers, except the Engineer. I'm very surprised that so far nothing appeals to you.

irking dude.. irking.

[kingsword]

I think it is. I kind of feel like playing EVERY SINGLE ONE of the careers, except the Engineer. I'm very surprised that so far nothing appeals to you.

You took it wrong there, I meant that KotBS' style is the only one that intimidates me. However it's also one of the two reasons that I want to play WAR: PvP focus and an iconic character for my taste.

[Realgar]

I have been checking other classes' info and also the experiences of people who played them so far, none has a style of playing that's irking me. Save for KotBS and 'twisting'. And I've seen quite a bit of posts from DAoC players telling that they'll avoid the class. Surely it's not a just matter of my 'ideal'.

Don't confuse these pleas with those from people who want Chosens to be invincible terminators. What I'm asking is being able to play a KotBS without spamming buffs non-stop. Yes, I understood that you can 'not do it' but we'd be considered useless or unskilled if that's not the norm.


Check out this article (http://www.mmo-gamer.com/?p=242):

The Knight is actually quite an interesting class, he is a tank, but he’s a bit of more of a support tank. The Knight has commands, these commands can be issued in such a way that the Knight can sit back as a battlefield commander, and just help his group by directing these buffs, these group buffs and these individual debuffs on targets and groups, and he doesn’t necessarily have to just get up there and mix it up, he can walk back and he can stay back as your battlefield tactician type. Or, he can get in and mix it up. So there’s two ways that you can play the character, you can be up front in the face, defending your allies, blocking, doing melee attacks, or you can stack back and play a little bit more of a tactician.

This is the Career Lead saying this. Granted its still very early in the KnoBS development and everything is subject to change, but if they stick to this vision, you may be pleasantly surprised.

[Axxar]

You took it wrong there, I meant that KotBS' style is the only one that intimidates me. However it's also one of the two reasons that I want to play WAR: PvP focus and an iconic character for my taste.My mistake. At any rate I think you should wait a bit and listen to some feedback once the KotBS actually starts becoming playable at the game events. I haven't tried this "twisting" thing myself but it sounds like a more interesting way to go about buffing people than just spamming the same button all the time.

[Konrad Siegesruf]

The Knight is actually quite an interesting class, he is a tank, but he’s a bit of more of a support tank. The Knight has commands, these commands can be issued in such a way that the Knight can sit back as a battlefield commander, and just help his group by directing these buffs, these group buffs and these individual debuffs on targets and groups, and he doesn’t necessarily have to just get up there and mix it up, he can walk back and he can stay back as your battlefield tactician type. Or, he can get in and mix it up. So there’s two ways that you can play the character, you can be up front in the face, defending your allies, blocking, doing melee attacks, or you can stack back and play a little bit more of a tactician.

I think i am going to do a mix of both once the game comes out.

[Montague]

Check out this article (http://www.mmo-gamer.com/?p=242):



This is the Career Lead saying this. Granted its still very early in the KnoBS development and everything is subject to change, but if they stick to this vision, you may be pleasantly surprised.

On the contrary, the Career dev just shot down his preferred style of play because he dropped the S-word in there: Support.

The brutal fact of the matter is that a KOTBS not twisting buffs will be treated as a WOW paladin not healing, or a DAOC paladin not twisting chants - noob. Why?

Will a KOTBS tank as well as say an Ironbreaker and have powerful buffs? No.

Will a KOTBS be allowed to DPS as well as say a Witch Hunter and be a tank? No.

If you don't lay down buffs that can help your team win and try to perform a role that your class is 2nd or 3rd rate at, you will be ostracized and ridiculed. Anyone who complains on the forums about the KOTBS role will be directed to that very article - you're a SUPPORT CLASS, NOOB! Get in the back and support.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is in for a rude awakening.

[kingsword]

Montague summarized my fears perfectly, I just need to add that this buffing system can be even more dreadful than WoW paladin's if I'm guessing right. :confused:

Thanks for that article Realgar, it sounds cool but yes, we need to see how it works.

[Grandmaster]

"What? You are a KotBs who does not use twisting? Leave the group now .. we don`t want you!"

[Garok]

"What? You are a KotBs who does not use twisting? Leave the group now .. we don`t want you!"

Goes for anyone that refuses to play there class properly though. Casters who refuse to use there CC abilities and just spam damage or tanks tanking with Dw or 2h "lols I do damage meights lolz" Just makes everyone elses job harder.

If you dont want to use your abilities to benifit your group then what benafit are you to the group ?

Kinda sad that alot of people seem to have this attitude if you dont want to fill the role .. dont roll the class.

So there’s two ways that you can play the character, you can be up front in the face, defending your allies, blocking, doing melee attacks, or you can stack back and play a little bit more of a tacticianGroups are limited to 6 spots who in there right mind wil just use a spot for a buffer ? The Knight is tank class it was designed for tanking thats what its will be taken for. In large scale RvR then sure standing back and useing some buffs will be benafical in some situations but thats not all you will be doing for the majority.


In DAOC Pallys were one of the most over populated classes they were increadably easy to play due to the tools they had and the fact every Alb group needed one (atleast for PvE). People have compired twisting on a Bard to a Pally and the two were completely different. Bard took skill ... Pally did not ... End chant - Heal Chant - Mele Style - Dam add - End Chant - Mele Style - Not exactly hard to click 4 buttons in sequence ;o

Twisting Chants was easy only an absalute dunce would not be able to grasp it.

[Montague]

Goes for anyone that refuses to play there class properly though. Casters who refuse to use there CC abilities and just spam damage or tanks tanking with Dw or 2h "lols I do damage meights lolz" Just makes everyone elses job harder.

If you dont want to use your abilities to benifit your group then what benafit are you to the group ?

Kinda sad that alot of people seem to have this attitude if you dont want to fill the role .. dont roll the class.

Groups are limited to 6 spots who in there right mind wil just use a spot for a buffer ? The Knight is tank class it was designed for tanking thats what its will be taken for. In large scale RvR then sure standing back and useing some buffs will be benafical in some situations but thats not all you will be doing for the majority.


In DAOC Pallys were one of the most over populated classes they were increadably easy to play due to the tools they had and the fact every Alb group needed one (atleast for PvE). People have compired twisting on a Bard to a Pally and the two were completely different. Bard took skill ... Pally did not ... End chant - Heal Chant - Mele Style - Dam add - End Chant - Mele Style - Not exactly hard to click 4 buttons in sequence ;o

Twisting Chants was easy only an absalute dunce would not be able to grasp it.

Thanks for proving my point. KOTBS players won't have any choice but to lay back and throw down buffs, or be accused of not using their abilities to the fullest by folks like yourself.

KOTBS will be expected to buff in large scale RVR. What about scenarios? Oh yeah there too. If they're lucky KOTBS may be allowed to function as tanks in PVE if no other class is available.

What I find unfortunate and hypocritical about the KOTBS is you have Paul splashed all across Youtube enthusastically sticking it to other MMO's with his "..and I heal... and I heal... and I heal..." schtick, and comes right out and says "THAT'S BORING!" I agree. So what exactly is Mythic thinking in that "...and I buff....and I buff.... and I buff...." is not boring?

[Aaronthethird]

I would wait to see what the class is all about before you get too bent out of shape. All we have now are little scraps of info, and a mention of twisting. I would recommend just waiting to see how the class really functions because there is also the posibility that they might be very enganging. They have mentioned that the class functions as a tactician, maybe it is more strategic then the twisting found in most games, and, again, there are many months before the game is released, if the mechanic stinks and the class is terrible to play I am confident that Mythic will at least consider changing it. They don't want this game to be any more boring than you do, I am sure of that.

[Sir Athanasius]

On the contrary, the Career dev just shot down his preferred style of play because he dropped the S-word in there: Support.

The brutal fact of the matter is that a KOTBS not twisting buffs will be treated as a WOW paladin not healing, or a DAOC paladin not twisting chants - noob. Why?

Will a KOTBS tank as well as say an Ironbreaker and have powerful buffs? No.

Will a KOTBS be allowed to DPS as well as say a Witch Hunter and be a tank? No.

If you don't lay down buffs that can help your team win and try to perform a role that your class is 2nd or 3rd rate at, you will be ostracized and ridiculed. Anyone who complains on the forums about the KOTBS role will be directed to that very article - you're a SUPPORT CLASS, NOOB! Get in the back and support.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is in for a rude awakening.

My fears exactly. If the twisting system is implemented, then the community will treat the Knight as support, period. We will have to wait and see but personally I have already started looking for a different class to be my main, because I was a holy priest in WoW and I am not going to be anyone's heal/buff bot this time! :evil:

[Garok]

Thanks for proving my point. KOTBS players won't have any choice but to lay back and throw down buffs, or be accused of not using their abilities to the fullest by folks like yourself.

KOTBS will be expected to buff in large scale RVR. What about scenarios? Oh yeah there too. If they're lucky KOTBS may be allowed to function as tanks in PVE if no other class is available.

What I find unfortunate and hypocritical about the KOTBS is you have Paul splashed all across Youtube enthusastically sticking it to other MMO's with his "..and I heal... and I heal... and I heal..." schtick, and comes right out and says "THAT'S BORING!" I agree. So what exactly is Mythic thinking in that "...and I buff....and I buff.... and I buff...." is not boring?

Way to miss the point. Its not a buff bot its a tank.
You cant tank by staying at the back casting buffs
Your job is to tank while casting you group shouts/buffs r what ever you want to call them. Its not one or the other like WOW its both together !

After the problems they had in daoc & when asked by daoc players whether buff bots will be in the game the said about 9 milion times

THERE WILL BE NO BUFF BOTS IN WAR AND THE BUFFING SYSTEM WILL NOT BE AS POWERFULL AS IT WAS IN DAOCSo just to reitarate...............

Kotbs too be effective has to use both its primary skill tanking and its sub skill group shouts AT THE SAME TIME to be effective.

My fears exactly. If the twisting system is implemented, then the community will treat the Knight as support, period. We will have to wait and see but personally I have already started looking for a different class to be my main, because I was a holy priest in WoW and I am not going to be anyone's heal/buff bot this time! :evil:

No ........ you may get some of that at the begining from some random nooblets. Then said nooblets get ridiculed by the pro gamers for not having a clue about how the class should work and you will find they then keep there mouths quite firmly shut.

[Sir Athanasius]

No ........ you may get some of that at the begining from some random nooblets. Then said nooblets get ridiculed by the pro gamers for not having a clue about how the class should work and you will find they then keep there mouths quite firmly shut.

Actually it works the other way around. The pro gamers are usually the ones forcing gameplay styles and stereotypes in MMOs.They are a min/maxers bunch, I assure you of that since I was a min/maxer myself in WoW as a raider in Naxxramas (by far the hardest rain in WOW pre-TBC and some say post TBC). Casuals generally accept what the hardcore i.e. "pro" community says as the one and only way of playing the game. If the KotBS ends up having strong buffs that dont require the class to be at the front line then it's most likely that the pro gamers will require Knights to stand back and buff, assigning Ironbreakers and Swordmasters on tanking duty.

Of course none of this is sure to happen! I am just worried that mistakes of the past might be repeated accidentally. It's too early to tell.... but I will stay pessimistic until some footage is released. ;)

[Garok]

Actually it works the other way around. The pro gamers are usually the ones forcing gameplay styles and stereotypes in MMOs.They are a min/maxers bunch, I assure you of that since I was a min/maxer myself in WoW as a raider in Naxxramas (by far the hardest rain in WOW pre-TBC and some say post TBC). Casuals generally accept what the hardcore i.e. "pro" community says as the one and only way of playing the game. If the KotBS ends up having strong buffs that dont require the class to be at the front line then it's most likely that the pro gamers will require Knights to stand back and buff, assigning Ironbreakers and Swordmasters on tanking duty.

Of course none of this is sure to happen! I am just worried that mistakes of the past might be repeated accidentally. It's too early to tell.... but I will stay pessimistic until some footage is released. ;)

But why would they design a tank to stand back and buff ?.... added to the fact as the buffs wount be as powerfull as daoc (basicly doubling your stats) haveing someone just stand back and cast buffs is a waste of a group space. The end game is PvP not PvE, you cant get away with haveing a pure ranged buff class in PvP if thats all it does, you cant get away with useing 1/2 your abilites/skills or your group gets chained by groups that use all there abilities.

[Sir Athanasius]

But why would they design a tank to stand back and buff ?

I fear that the community will pidgeonhole Knights into buffbots and then the developers will be forced to come to terms with the community established fact that Knights are support and not a main tanking class. They will design armor and updates around buffing instead of tanking eventually or the Knights will be considered poorly geared and not properly supported by Mythic.

It's kinda the same thing that happened in WoW's paladin. Initially that paladin raiding tier gear was hybrid's one, but because raiding guilds forced paladins to become healadins, Blizzard eventually released healing only sets.

Big guilds will always try to min/max classes and the knight might very well become a victim of it's own class mechanics!

Then again I could be completely wrong! :p Since we don't have any knowledge on what abilites the Knights have, its all speculation. I hope twisting, which does not seem appealing to me, will not be of crucial importance in the game. Useful yes, gamebreaking, thanks but no thanks.:roll:

[Montague]

But why would they design a tank to stand back and buff ?.... added to the fact as the buffs wount be as powerfull as daoc (basicly doubling your stats) haveing someone just stand back and cast buffs is a waste of a group space. The end game is PvP not PvE, you cant get away with haveing a pure ranged buff class in PvP if thats all it does, you cant get away with useing 1/2 your abilites/skills or your group gets chained by groups that use all there abilities.

Exactly. Why WOULD they design a tank to stand back and buff? Apparently they did, at least one with the option to.

Depending on the strength of the buffs, it could be quite advantageous to stand back and buff, especially with CD. If you're the only tank no, but get an Ironbreaker or two up front, let them hold the line then buff them all to hell while they rip apart the enemy line. Might be very effective, but about as much fun as spamming heals.

If the buffs are weak, they probably aren't worth casting and why exactly would any competitive group take you over another tank?

I stated this in another thread - tie the buff pulses to attack/block/taunt moves. That way the KOTBS can be an effective tank and buffer at the same time. Ditch the whole "stepping back and buffing" schtick.

Edit: To address an earlier post I would be very, very surprised if a KOTBS could buff effectively while tanking. The descriptions talk about twisting buffs for maximum effect - fitting those in between blocks, taunts, special attacks all with global cooldowns... I'm not seeing it.

[Garok]

Exactly. Why WOULD they design a tank to stand back and buff? Apparently they did, at least one with the option to.

Depending on the strength of the buffs, it could be quite advantageous to stand back and buff, especially with CD. If you're the only tank no, but get an Ironbreaker or two up front, let them hold the line then buff them all to hell while they rip apart the enemy line. Might be very effective, but about as much fun as spamming heals.

If the buffs are weak, they probably aren't worth casting and why exactly would any competitive group take you over another tank?

I stated this in another thread - tie the buff pulses to attack/block/taunt moves. That way the KOTBS can be an effective tank and buffer at the same time. Ditch the whole "stepping back and buffing" schtick.

Edit: To address an earlier post I would be very, very surprised if a KOTBS could buff effectively while tanking. The descriptions talk about twisting buffs for maximum effect - fitting those in between blocks, taunts, special attacks all with global cooldowns... I'm not seeing it.

.......... the only was you guys will ever understand it seems is to download the trial copy of DAOC and level a pally up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrD2JtNpUw4

Buttons 7 + 8 + 9 are the chants in this video ..

How hard or time consuming is it to cast a insta non targeted pbaoe buff ? Click one button thats it ! you dont have to target anyone

[Jonas]

It saddens me that the person making the most sense in this thread wants to be a Chaos Magus.

Jebus guys, stop your bloody whinging. The game isn't out yet, we don't know how it's going to be, it's much more likely to be how Garok has been saying it. STOP CRYING.

It's starting to sound like the WoW pally forums here.

[kingsword]

How hard or time consuming is it to cast a insta non targeted pbaoe buff ? Click one button thats it ! you dont have to target anyone

It would be alright if it wasn't done like what, every 10 seconds?

Also please don't forget that being hard or not isn't the issue with buffing. People told the same thing in WoW: "how hard is it to cast something every five minutes?" Well, that's something you need to do for every day months/years to understand. If it's not the norm for other classes to do the same thing, you're just carrying a burden for no reason at all.

What I'd like to see as a command mechanic would be like this:

Select a player, activate 'command of x'. Now that player receives the command buff every 10 secs if he's in range. It renews itself and pauses if you move out of range. If it's a group buff, no target required. It refreshes periodically.

What's the point of forcing the player to manually refresh? Please do tell, is it about skill or what? I can't see any kind of skill associated with it, mere tedium. If you want to occupy a 'global cooldown', (to prevent doing another thing during the activation second) you can do it with automated refresh too. If it takes action points, morale or whatever, make the automation optional. For example, right click on icon automates, left click or key assignment manually activates a command.

Tedium is bad, very bad. It needs to avoided or the class becomes played for the sole reason of being needed in group situations. WoW paladin is pretty much like that, people never roll it as an alt. But eventually someone has to play because it's needed due to game mechanics, not for fun.

[Garok]

Do you even read what I write or just type what ever comes into your head ? Your arguments dont stand up becuase either you dont read or dont understand what people say and every post seens to contradict what you have previously written !

It would be alright if it wasn't done like what, every 10 seconds?

Also please don't forget that being hard or not isn't the issue with buffing. People told the same thing in WoW: "how hard is it to cast something every five minutes?" Well, that's something you need to do for every day months/years to understand. If it's not the norm for other classes to do the same thing, you're just carrying a burden for no reason at all.

Its the same with every class dps classes use the same buttons over and over again . Tank classes use the same buttons over and over again Heal classes use the same buttons over and over again ..

What I'd like to see as a command mechanic would be like this:

Select a player, activate 'command of x'. Now that player receives the command buff every 10 secs if he's in range. It renews itself and pauses if you move out of range. If it's a group buff, no target required. It refreshes periodically.So you shoot down the Chant system then sugest an even worse method! Your basicly sugesting that this class basicly casts its buffs then acts as a bog standard tank. That would be increadably dull to play ! Who on earth would want to play a dumbed down version of the other tank classes in this game ?


What's the point of forcing the player to manually refresh? Please do tell, is it about skill or what? I can't see any kind of skill associated with it, mere tedium. If you want to occupy a 'global cooldown', (to prevent doing another thing during the activation second) you can do it with automated refresh too. If it takes action points, morale or whatever, make the automation optional. For example, right click on icon automates, left click or key assignment manually activates a command.Yes it is about skill. Its about looking at your suroundings and selecting what chants/shouts to use. Were is the fun in haveing perma buffs when far more engaeing (AND THERE FOR FUN) to use situaltional ones that require you to actually pay attention to whats going on around you.

WoW paladin is pretty much like that, people never roll it as an alt. But eventually someone has to play because it's needed due to game mechanics, not for fun.DAOC Pally and woW pally are 2 different things try do not think omg I play WoW pally there for I know what DAOC pally is like !

It also appears that you have trouble reading my sig .. If you did you would noice that I actually have a WoW pally .. which I may add I rolled as an alt and its now my main. I had 0 touble leveling it solo as ret spec and zero problems what I respec'd holy to main heal raids.

Tedium is bad, very bad. It needs to avoided or the class becomes played for the sole reason of being needed in group situations.Then your playing the wrong type of games. The whole points of a class is that ts needed in group in. The only real skill part of MMPRPG is teamwork.

[kingsword]

Its the same with every class dps classes use the same buttons over and over again . Tank classes use the same buttons over and over again Heal classes use the same buttons over and over again ..

For buffs? I think not, as we wouldn't have this thread here otherwise. Last time I checked, buffs are merely buffs, not real action like throwing fireballs, cleaving people or channeling heals. How is having a buff manually recast that often supposed to be fun?

So you shoot down the Chant system then sugest an even worse method! Your basicly sugesting that this class basicly casts its buffs then acts as a bog standard tank. That would be increadably dull to play ! Who on earth would want to play a dumbed down version of the other tank classes in this game ?

I cannot see how it'd dumbed down, the idea is to be buffing other players and tanking. Right? And I said about making it optional, if you don't like it, just go manual.

Yes it is about skill. Its about looking at your suroundings and selecting what chants/shouts to use. Were is the fun in haveing perma buffs when far more engaeing (AND THERE FOR FUN) to use situaltional ones that require you to actually pay attention to whats going on around you.

Skill is about deciding when to change it to what and doing it. You still need to do that. Hitting a key every 10 secs isn't about skill, it's withstanding tedium.

DAOC Pally and woW pally are 2 different things try do not think omg I play WoW pally there for I know what DAOC pally is like !

I told that I didn't know at the very start of the thread but according to what the people who played told me, it sounds like buffing in DAoC was worse. And I saw many more people complaining about it rather than the ones who liked it, gives an idea.

It also appears that you have trouble reading my sig .. If you did you would noice that I actually have a WoW pally .. which I may add I rolled as an alt and its now my main. I had 0 touble leveling it solo as ret spec and zero problems what I respec'd holy to main heal raids.

And?

Then your playing the wrong type of games. The whole points of a class is that ts needed in group in. The only real skill part of MMPRPG is teamwork.

Ugh.. I had thought that games were played to have fun first, everything second. Am I wrong? And classes are supposed to be fun in their own ways to cater to people's different tastes. Tanking and buffing is fine, we're just talking about making it so buffing remains based on skill but without tedium.

[Montague]

It saddens me that the person making the most sense in this thread wants to be a Chaos Magus.

Jebus guys, stop your bloody whinging. The game isn't out yet, we don't know how it's going to be, it's much more likely to be how Garok has been saying it. STOP CRYING.

It's starting to sound like the WoW pally forums here.

The only person "whinging" in this thread is you. The only persons blowing a gasket in this thread are you and Garok. It's unfortunate you're not mature enough to read points of view that differ from your own without throwing a tantrum.

[Montague]

.......... the only was you guys will ever understand it seems is to download the trial copy of DAOC and level a pally up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrD2JtNpUw4

Buttons 7 + 8 + 9 are the chants in this video ..

How hard or time consuming is it to cast a insta non targeted pbaoe buff ? Click one button thats it ! you dont have to target anyone

Not very difficult at all.

My questions to you, since you played DAOC extensively:

Could a DAOC paladin get away with smacking the opposition with only one PBAOE buff? It's been nearly unanimous from players I've spoken to that any paladin worth grouping with kept 3 chants up at all times, or double healing chants, whatever those are.

Now PVP tanking and CD. I'm assuming you've seen some of the abilities other tanks have. Please tell me how a character can keep up 3 commands and effectively PVP tank with autoattack.

[Sir Athanasius]

It saddens me that the person making the most sense in this thread wants to be a Chaos Magus.

Jebus guys, stop your bloody whinging. The game isn't out yet, we don't know how it's going to be, it's much more likely to be how Garok has been saying it. STOP CRYING.

It's starting to sound like the WoW pally forums here.

:confused: Since when is expressing your concerns considered whining? Everyone is entitled to his one opinion, and my opinion is that twisting sounds bad. I said before that maybe I am wrong but until we learn more of the class mechanics I will keep a negative stance on twisting.

And it's really suprising to see people who dont understand that classes can be easily pigeonholed to certain roles by the community, even if the developers never intended for it to be so.... :(

[Garok]

Not very difficult at all.

My questions to you, since you played DAOC extensively:

Could a DAOC paladin get away with smacking the opposition with only one PBAOE buff? It's been nearly unanimous from players I've spoken to that any paladin worth grouping with kept 3 chants up at all times, or double healing chants, whatever those are.

Now PVP tanking and CD. I'm assuming you've seen some of the abilities other tanks have. Please tell me how a character can keep up 3 commands and effectively PVP tank with autoattack.

In the 3 years I played Albion (realm with pallys in) I failed to meet one Pally who could not twist chants and tank. The heal chant you mentioned was one of the facters why it was probably the best tank (pve) wise. By haveing a low group heal it could maintain multi target agro though much easier than any of the other shield useing tanks.

Because dynamic's of the chants it was not always necicary to keep all three up all the time though and aslong as you could keep agro and your group had enough endurance everything was good. Infact more than often you would miss a tic on a chant to use you mele attacks for increased dam and agro (no way could you keep agro just from auto attack and chants). So most of the time the chant was up for 6 secs of every 8-9 secs. You could however by in game keybinding cast more than one chant at the same time. So say bind key 1 to anytime mele attack and heal chant and key 2 to End chant and Dam add chant you can now twist and attack with 2 keys and the only situational stuff you need to worry about is postional attacks and slapping guard on people who are being attacked by mele.

I think my only fear for the class would be that the one of the dynamics of the shouts (like the endurace regen shout in daoc) would so required in groups as to make the other tank classes Swordmaster and Ironbreaker redundent.

[Montague]

In the 3 years I played Albion (realm with pallys in) I failed to meet one Pally who could not twist chants and tank. The heal chant you mentioned was one of the facters why it was probably the best tank (pve) wise. By haveing a low group heal it could maintain multi target agro though much easier than any of the other shield useing tanks.

Because dynamic's of the chants it was not always necicary to keep all three up all the time though and aslong as you could keep agro and your group had enough endurance everything was good. Infact more than often you would miss a tic on a chant to use you mele attacks for increased dam and agro (no way could you keep agro just from auto attack and chants). So most of the time the chant was up for 6 secs of every 8-9 secs. You could however by in game keybinding cast more than one chant at the same time. So say bind key 1 to anytime mele attack and heal chant and key 2 to End chant and Dam add chant you can now twist and attack with 2 keys and the only situational stuff you need to worry about is postional attacks and slapping guard on people who are being attacked by mele.

I think my only fear for the class would be that the one of the dynamics of the shouts (like the endurace regen shout in daoc) would so required in groups as to make the other tank classes Swordmaster and Ironbreaker redundent.

Yeah PVE I'm not worried about at all. In fact I get the feeling the KOTBS may be the PVE tank of choice on the Order side.

PVP and RVR is a different kettle of fish. We'll of course have to see about the shouts, but my feeling is that some sort of morale buff shout is going to be big in RVR. Having one "required" shout may actually help in that we can go up to the front lines and protect teammates while only having to worry about keeping up one buff. The more valuable the other buffs are the more chance we have of being relegated to the back, since it'll be difficult enough with stuns, CC, etc to stay up front and get off tanking moves, much less keeping up 2 or 3 buffs.

[Garok]

Yeah PVE I'm not worried about at all. In fact I get the feeling the KOTBS may be the PVE tank of choice on the Order side.

PVP and RVR is a different kettle of fish. We'll of course have to see about the shouts, but my feeling is that some sort of morale buff shout is going to be big in RVR. Having one "required" shout may actually help in that we can go up to the front lines and protect teammates while only having to worry about keeping up one buff. The more valuable the other buffs are the more chance we have of being relegated to the back, since it'll be difficult enough with stuns, CC, etc to stay up front and get off tanking moves, much less keeping up 2 or 3 buffs.

I think the part about being at the back goes for all tanks. When to join the mele train and when to stand back and defend. In daoc you had a mechanic called guard were shield users could block a % of enemies attacks against a target (abit like taunt I suppose in WAR) and most of the time you would be floating between the two (offensive and deffensive) duties. For example guarding your team mate while stunning snareing the train allowing him/her room to kite, joining the assist train or picking up an unmarked target (healer etc). But this is one of the challanges that make tanks fun to play in PvP rather than the button smashing assist munkeys (aka light tanks / mele dps)

Hot keying your chants and abilities to the same key does help alot though (thats if there is no global cooldown ofc) and can half the amount of buttons you need to use.

[Biocide]

I'm beginning to see an odd trend.

Why are all of the KotBS abilities and overall play style trying to be pigeonholed into either a WoW character or DAoC character?

Both have design ideas that are great and noteworthy. The short buffs are wonderful because you can quickly adjust them, and if they're short duration long cooldown (perhaps a morale buff?) then using your buff would have a huge impact.

WoW buffs are good because they're set it and forget it. DAoC buffs are good because they are so flexible (from what I understand). Why not have the KotBS do both? Nobody ever said that the KotBS had to fit either archetype, and the only archetype that's been set is a KotBS is a tank/buffer, just like a warrior priest is a healer/melee dps. The thing after the slash comes in to a much lesser degree than the one before with all classes in WAR, I don't see Mythic making the mechanics so restraining as to make the KotBS into anything other than a tank. They didn't make the gimmick of any other class more important than it's main function, and those worried about the KotBS buffs becoming the main function have ungrounded fears I'd imagine.

Mythic would be stupid to do buffs completely in either style. WoW buffs you forget about, and therefore forget your contribution. DAoC buffs are too high maintenance to be considered fun in the long term. I'll bet they put in a system that's inbetween the two, there's no reason for them to mess it up, and they've already shown that they've learned from DAoC.

[Garok]

Mythic would be stupid to do buffs completely in either style. WoW buffs you forget about, and therefore forget your contribution. DAoC buffs are too high maintenance to be considered fun in the long term. I'll bet they put in a system that's inbetween the two, there's no reason for them to mess it up, and they've already shown that they've learned from DAoC.

Erm your abit confused hehe the majority of DAOC buffs were not timered, you had a buff pool on your buffing classes so you buffed people as much as you could before your pool points hit 0 the buffs then stayed up till either the buffer or the player who was buffed died. In wow buffs cost mana were no way near as powerfull and you had to recast when the timers ran out (which sucked).

The pally chants were not classed as buffs, more as abilities that beifited your group mates and the pally was certainly not a buffing class.

As they said no over powering buffs will be included as it leads to buff bots.

Buff bots are non played charecters that you run on a second account with the sole purpose of providing you with the best buffs possible.

@ the end of the day the system sounds complex but really it isn't. During its peak DAOC pallys were one of the if not the most populated class (as you would expect from a camalot themed game). However these people continued to play the class after reaching cap level becuse it was So easy to play ( you did not have to be some 0mg 1 4 t3h ub3r pl4y3r to twist 3 chants and smack your positional and any time attacks).

I will admit that it does sound abit confuseing. The system does work however it is easy to do hence it has not been changed for 5 years. One reason for includeing certain styles of abilities is you know they work. For example take Animist turrets in DAOC tweak them to fit and blamo you have Engineers turrets in WAR (based on the same engine so easy to tweek the code). So take the chant idea that works .. adjust it to fit in game and bosh a working system :)

[Aethelbeorht]

Buff bots are non played charecters that you run on a second account with the sole purpose of providing you with the best buffs possible.

Here I thought that "buff bot" was merely a self-depreciating term used by players who played on a character of a certain class which was relegated to simply buffing by other players. I've never heard it used to refer to a second account. I guess you learn something new every day.

[justsomeguy]

Knights of the Blazing Sun sound like they are going to be an amazing class. I am glad my brother is dead set on playing one. Every class in this game can do damage. The ability to support your group while doing so will be of immense advantage. To say nothing about abilities aimed at protecting your comrades as well as yourself. If they made this an easy to play class, they would have to sacrifice in one area or another. By keeping it a challenging class to play, they can afford to have this powerful set of abilities in a single career. The ability to react dynamically at the forefront of the battle is incredible. Let's face it, if the Knights get any thing resembling a group haste or celerity buff... that's just one of those "Oh ****" MMORPG powers. Everything I've read so far sounds like the class has great potential, so I wouldn't sell out on it yet.

[Flegler]

If they made this an easy to play class, they would have to sacrifice in one area or another.

They'll still have to make sacrifices. Classes that are hard to play can't be allowed to be more powerful than the straightforward ones, otherwise after a month the only classes we'd see would be the "complex" ones. If the KotBS has powerful buffs and can tank well, then you can bet your arse it'll be one of the worst careers for DPS.

Not that I mind particularly, as long as my Knight is still viable and useful. It fits the fluff for regular humans to be a bit weedier than orcs and dwarfs and the like.

[justsomeguy]

They'll still have to make sacrifices. Classes that are hard to play can't be allowed to be more powerful than the straightforward ones, otherwise after a month the only classes we'd see would be the "complex" ones. If the KotBS has powerful buffs and can tank well, then you can bet your arse it'll be one of the worst careers for DPS.

Not that I mind particularly, as long as my Knight is still viable and useful. It fits the fluff for regular humans to be a bit weedier than orcs and dwarfs and the like.

I have to disagree. This is a group versus group game. The ability to react and fill multiple roles depending on how you perceive the situation is where the complexity with playing a knight comes from. Most people who play these games don't like worrying about how best to play their character... just point, click, and kill.

A wider palette of options makes for an inherently more powerful class. Trying to balance the ability to, at different times, assist in a wide variety of areas with the ability to actually kill someone isn't going to work in a game where even healers can do alot of damage. If there is one constant need in these games is the ability to do damage.

The class that you are designing is a "Oh, sorry, we already have a Knight in the group." class. The Knight will in fact end near the bottom of the pile in terms of DPS but when he hits, it will hurt, and if he focuses on damage should be competitive with any other class focusing on doing damage. Just because he has the ability to do group support, sometimes to the exclusion of everything else, doesn't mean he should get mugged if he's alone.

Being powerful is relative... making your group stronger even more so. The notion that everyone is going to play a Knight because they are more powerful is absurd. You want your knight enhancing the powers of classes actually made to do damage. The weakness of the knight class is going to come from the tank archetypes slow movement speed (and the demoralization), not from an inability to damage.

[Konrad Siegesruf]

The slow movement speed won't become a problem once mounted combat is implemented ;).

[Reddimus]

I believe a lot of classes will have something to master.. it's just not presented on the table up front like it is for the Knights. In other MMOs there's an obvious difference between the skilled and the not-so-skilled of any class. It's just a matter of taking advantage of all of your abilities and having experience in using them, nothing to be intimidated about.

[Najarati]

If the KOTBS's buffing abilities play out like the chants of the Paladin in DAOC, where you "twisted" them, then I will avoid this class like the plague. The whole twisting aspect of the DAOC Paladin is what drove me away from the class even though I started mine well before the class had "End Chant" or "Celerity." Honestly, I feel that the DAOC Paladin is one of the worst implementations of the class except for the WoW Paladin, which is even more of an abomination.

My favorite Knight/Paladin class implementation still remains the Diablo II Paladin; what a great class that is. Here you have a Knight that has powerful buffs, good defenses, and could dish out respectable damage. On a related note, the Vanguard Paladin, despite the other problems with the game, is also a pretty good implementation as well--buffs, rescues, lulls, invulns, snares, stuns, heals, and some fairly powerful "Gifts of Virtue."

I'm still hopeful for the KOTBS, but I don't want to destroy my wrists playing as one.

[kingsword]

I can only hope that Mythic is following people's reluctance to play the class just due to this twisting issue and enough people are playing it on beta to give comprehensive feedback so that they'll be able to modify it as necessary.

It appears to be dull and tedious by all means, even from the accounts of people advocating it. :(

[Xilbalba]

I just wanted to verify this concept of twisting, so lets say we have two buffs, "buff A" is +strength and "buff B" is +agility, so essentaily when I "twist" do I combine the two buffs A and B into a new buff (lets say "buff C" +dmg)?

C (Twisted buff)
=
A + B (Basic buff)

And do all the buffs still stay active after the twisting? So when I get C, A and B are still active until their timer is up? If so that would be interesting if they included some kind of scaling with the "twisting" so the more factors you add the more powerful the buff, like how the dwarf ironbreakers dmg scales with the number of his allies you hurt.

My second question is "How far up does the twisting go"? For example once I get two basic buffs A and B and form C can I get two more buffs (lets say D and E to form "F")? After than could I "twist" C and F together to form an even more powerful buff?

G (Super buff)

C + F = G (Lvl 2 buff)

A + B = C // C + D = F (Basic buffs)

Basically like a pyramid scheme? Now that would make for confusing but interesting gameplay and definatly force some of the attention in pvp on you seeing as how if your left alone to "twist" your whole party grows stronger the longer your at it.

[Najarati]

If you're going by DAOC then twisting was a way for the Paladin (and also the Minstrel) to keep up most of his chants (aura-like buffs) up at the same time. They didn't get stronger as you did this you just had the majority of them running at once due to each having a short duration; that is, they didn't immediately drop when you switched from one chant to the next. Essentially, it worked like this:

I have four chants I want to have running: Damage chant, armor chant, end chant, and heal chant. In DAOC, the heal chant was often run last because its "floating cup" animation was used as a gauge to help you determine when to restart your twisting cycle. Plus, I believe it also helped you get a "double tic" of healing, but that's not really important to this example

You would assign your chants to successive keys. For simplicity, we will just use numbers:

1 is Damage Chant
2 is Armor Chant
3 is End Chant
4 is Heal Chant

To twist, you would press each of these keys in quick succession--1, 2, 3, 4. Each chant would go active for a short time. Once the "cup" got to a certain point in its animation you would start over--1, 2, 3, 4. That is twisting. You will have the effects of all those chants up at once. Now, while you're doing this constantly you need to also factor in your attack chains and position.

Twisting is doable in PvE because the monsters are really predictable. In, PvP, this mechanic is a pain in the rear due to the unpredictable nature of the environment. In both cases, I found that it really subtracted from the fun. Twisting was less annoying for me when doing it with the Minstrel primarily because I only did it when escorting a party around; I didn't have to worry about attacking, really. Regardless, I would rather Mythic try a different approach if they are indeed thinking about going the "twisting" route, again.

[Feigro]

What better way to demo the whole process than to just show a DaoC pally guide;

Twisting (http://www.thefaithfulpaladins.com/tactics.php#twist)Twisting is the ability for one Paladin to run multiple Chants at once and gain all their benefits. How does this work? It's a matter of timing and delay. Each chant, when you activate it, lasts for a certain number of seconds before it gets renewed. For the Refresh Chant, that delay is about 6 seconds. So, when you first cast the Refresh Chant, you get the immediate benefit of healing...and every 6 seconds after that, you get an additional heal. The same works for the Battle and Defense Chants. Immediately when you cast these chants, their effects are in place and you can use them.

So how does this allow us to run multiple chants together? Well, it's not that we actually chant them all at once, but rather, we start a Chant and then immediately start a different Chant. This gives us the benefit of the first Chant right away and then the longer lasting benefit of the second Chant. This sounds like uber-powerful (in a way it is), however, there's a limit to how fast you can Twist. There's a casting delay on each Chant, so you can't continuously switch back and forth. However, the casting delay is about 6 or more seconds for each, so as the benefit from your Twisted chant is over, you are almost ready to Twist in another chant.

If we apply this to a real life scenario, let's take Peon the Paladin. Peon is running the Battle Chant while in combat. He's doing fine, but then he realizes that he needs to heal himself in order to continue. However, he still wants to keep beating the snot out of his enemy. So, he changes his Chants and runs the Refresh Chant. Immediately he gets some healing. However, in order to keep his damage up he immediately changes back to the Damage Chant. He can continue doing this forever or until the battle is over. He gets the double benefit of the Refresh and the Damage Chant together.

If you are really ambitious, you can twist three or more chants at once and get the benefit of all of them. You can do this by hotkeying all the chants and running one right after another. When the casting delays are all finished, you start the process again. However, twisting this many chants can cost a lot of endurance, so read Twisting, Endurance and You (http://www.thefaithfulpaladins.com/tactics.php#endurancetwist) first.

@Xilbalba - No, you don't make a new buff at all. It's merely the micro of switching really fast between Buffs that linger. If you know anything of the WoW paladin... well imagine he has Devotion aura on, and he's about to get shadowbolted, So he switches to shadow resistance real quick. Then, he switches back to devotion and continues fighting. That illustrates the key-work involved in twisting.

On a mechanic level hower, imagine devotion aura if it were turned off... still lingered as a buff for 10 seconds. Additonally, all auras do the same, and they don't replace eachother if you switch. You could shut off Devotion aura and turn on Shadow resist aura and you'd have both buffs at the same time counting down for 10 seconds. Provided you go back to Devotion aura before the 10 second linger fades, you'll continously be able to refresh the buff.

Basically, the buff lasts a period of time, and if the "aura" isn't on when the buff timer runs out, it doesn't refresh. However, if the aura is on when the timer runs out, it'll refresh for another X seconds. Which means you can turn one aura on and get a buff, and switch to another aura for a different buff, and hold both buffs because they last X seconds regardless if the aura is "on" or not. The aura being "on" only controls the initial activation, and the refreshing of the buff.

[kingsword]

MMORPG.com: [Scorn]Anom :asks: Will the Chosen class get a 'Builder' such as Black Guard's Hatred and Ironbreaker's Grudge?
[WAR]EAMythic_Josh: The Chosen is a battlefield commander. He places himsefl strategically on the battlefield and uses auras (pulsing AOE spells) to debuff opponents. If you're familiar with "twisting," skilled players will be able to twist multiple spells at once.
[WAR]EAMythic_Gersh: The Chosen represents a diffrent type of playstyle
[WAR]EAMythic_Gersh: in general we may have 2 or 3 Tank Archetype careers
[WAR]EAMythic_Gersh: However each of those offerings represents a diffrent style of play
[WAR]EAMythic_Gersh: Some may rely on stances, other twisting auras or commands, or combo chains
[WAR]EAMythic_Gersh: so that being said No builders for the Chosen =)
Apparently we now also have Chosen community and their feedback about this twisting business so my hopes of it being designed better increased, as Chosen is and will be a popular career.

It's also disheartening to see some people immediately turned off from that class when they heard this, screaming "carpal tunnel syndrome". :|

[Zxae_Sorrow]

The twisting part isn't so bad, just as long as the KotBS isn't the Warhammer eqivilent of the Paladin in other areas. :p

Funny Mythic.

[Xilbalba]

Ahh thanks for the clear up Feigro and Najarati, if thats the case then it pretty much sounds like a pain in the . A pointless excuse to wear away at your keyboard. I mean this serves no purpose your not even creating something new, just trying vainly to keep the ones you got going. I pray to god this gets some kind of upgrade or something to make it actually interesting instead of tedious like it sounds.

[Montague]

Profoundly disappointing.

Not so much the twisting mechanic, most of us already knew about that, but how the Chosen is simply a reskin mirror of the KOTBS.

So much for 24 unique classes.

[kingsword]

Sigh, it was apparent MONTHS ago. There are 4 archetypes and each of them are either divided into 2 or 3 types. Melee healers, ranged healers. Ranged spell DPS, ranged physical DPS. Build-up tanks, buff tanks, combo tanks. In effect, there are still many different classes.

This allows for much better balance than "warlock > 8 totally irrelevant classes" 'balance' of some other game.

[Feigro]

Not so much the twisting mechanic, most of us already knew about that, but how the Chosen is simply a reskin mirror of the KOTBS.


Hardly. On how he performs his duty, sure, everything else, I doubt it. It'd be speculation anyway (which, by the way, that speculation seems to point that Kotbs are buffers and chosens are debuffers, which makes them pretty different). Look at it this way; Atleast we're GETTING complex additional mechanics and resources to our classes rather than just rellying on something like mana universally. I like the fact that I'm atleast given the expanded gameplay that having grudge, berzerk, or twisting granted to me in additon to AP, and further Morale.

Honestly, your statement only translates to me as, if this were a different game, "Wow... both these classes use mana? they must be copies."

Twisting is merely a mechanic, no different than relying on mana (though twisting isn't it's own resource) or combo points and the like. Two classes sharing similiar mechanics hardly makes them copies. Else any game with two magic classes that used mana would be copies of eachother..

[Flegler]

Profoundly disappointing.

Not so much the twisting mechanic, most of us already knew about that, but how the Chosen is simply a reskin mirror of the KOTBS.

Haven't they said the Chosen's gimmick will be debuffs, while the KotBS focuses on buffing? They do mirror each other in a sense, but they ought to play quite differently.

Edit: er, yes, exactly what Feigro said. That'll teach me not to read the small print.

[Montague]

Hardly. On how he performs his duty, sure, everything else, I doubt it. It'd be speculation anyway (which, by the way, that speculation seems to point that Kotbs are buffers and chosens are debuffers, which makes them pretty different). Look at it this way; Atleast we're GETTING complex additional mechanics and resources to our classes rather than just rellying on something like mana universally. I like the fact that I'm atleast given the expanded gameplay that having grudge, berzerk, or twisting granted to me in additon to AP, and further Morale.

Honestly, your statement only translates to me as, if this were a different game, "Wow... both these classes use mana? they must be copies."

Twisting is merely a mechanic, no different than relying on mana (though twisting isn't it's own resource) or combo points and the like. Two classes sharing similiar mechanics hardly makes them copies. Else any game with two magic classes that used mana would be copies of eachother..

Not hardly.

Mana is simply a limiting factor, just like rage, grudge, energy, whatever you want to call it.

Twisting a series of buffs/debuffs has a much more significant impact on gameplay than simply having a blue bar, mainly each class is going to be expected to tank while simultaneously pushing a lot of buttons that arent doing damage, taunting foes, or absorbing damage. Something tells me Mythic isn't going to implement two different ways of doing this. Or to put it another way, the "twisting" mechanic is going to pretty much dictate how both these character classes are going to be designed and implemented, and will most likely be mirror images of each other with opposite effects, but in the end the same gameplay.

Could I be wrong? Sure, but given the fact that Mythic has already chosen the easy way out (pun intended) with overall game design for the two classes it doesn't seem to me that there will be much material difference.

I was hoping that Mythic would avoid mirrored-like classes to forestall somewhat the inevitable balance whining, and to provide more choice in playstyle.

[Garok]

To keep RvR balanced you need to have some core mechanics the same. Lesson learned with DAOC.

[Faltina]

People complaining about twisting need to try it before they condemn it outright. It sounds and looks a lot worse on paper then it is in practice, I assure you.

I played a Paladin in DAoC for a long time (years before they even had Endurance and Celerity chants)... and the ability to "twist" the chants was not always just useful to whatever group I found myself in, but sometimes more so while soloing as it'd be giving me a damage add, increasing my Armor factor and giving me (admittedly crap) heals every "twist cycle". While Pvping against enemy tanks/light tanks... quite a few times those buffs made a world of difference and gave me an edge.

In current DAoC Paladins get: A Heal chant (with a garbage 55 hp per tick or something fairly useless; it's primarily a Pve agro grabber), Celerity (increases group attack speed by a listed %; absolutely awesome in tank-heavy groups), Endurance (while up it regens endurance for everyone in the group for a fixed amount every tick; an absolute ability), AF (increase Armor Factor for everyone in group, at max in chants it can make grouped tanks with the Paladin a nightmare to kill), damage add (gives a damage add to everyone in the Paladin's group in melee)... they also added resist chants for all the various magic resists in the game... although trying to fidget with those ALONG with the others got to be a bit outlandish; there's like 5-6 resist chants...

Most Paladins in DAoC spec high shield, medium-ish weapon and medium-high chants and can be beasts to take down if they're skilled at twisting.

I'd imagine that the Battlefield Commands that Kotbs will get will be ok to solo with, but obviously will truly shine while grouped... (because, y'know... people do group up in Mmorpgs from time to time).

Anyways... If you want to wtfpwn people with DPS... roll a DPS class. "Tanks" are (or at least should) ALWAYS lag behind DPS classes in terms of damage. If you want to heal-bomb people, stick to your Paladin in WoW or maybe roll a Warrior Priest and build him to heal...

Actually the Warrior Priest sounds just like what the OP might like the best.

[kingsword]

Instead of having several weak auras and juggling them, why not have decent but separate auras? It would actually make you decide meaningfully rather than spamming universally good auras. It's not a matter of potency in group situations, it's a matter of being convenient to play.

Because, you know.. People play games to have fun.. :rolleyes:

As for WP, I had considered that before KotBS was announced. I'll give the knight a try in any case and have no doubts aside this twisting issue.

[Faltina]

Instead of having several weak auras and juggling them, why not have decent but separate auras? It would actually make you decide meaningfully rather than spamming universally good auras. It's not a matter of potency in group situations, it's a matter of being convenient to play.

Because, you know.. People play games to have fun.. :rolleyes:

As for WP, I had considered that before KotBS was announced. I'll give the knight a try in any case and have no doubts aside this twisting issue.

I guess you didn't read the little descriptions I put down and mentioned that some, like the Endurance and Celerity chants... were used a ton and basically the only 2 really needed on a Paladins hotbar in RVR... so the "potency" comment doesn't stick. A Paladin COULD spam all their chants during the course of a long drawn out fight in RVR, but really their energy would best be spent Slam-locking down enemies, playing bodyguard for casters/healers or merely riding the assist train w/endo + celerity up. Fun's a relative term; what might be "fun" to you could very well be mindless to someone else. Part of the reason I suggested you look at a Warrior Priest is because it'll (probably) wind up being similar to a WoW Paladin in a lot of respects, (though I'd be shocked if they get an invulnerable bubble)... most of the other stuff would probably be comparable, though.

[Horus]

Exactly. Why WOULD they design a tank to stand back and buff? Apparently they did, at least one with the option to.

Depending on the strength of the buffs, it could be quite advantageous to stand back and buff, especially with CD. If you're the only tank no, but get an Ironbreaker or two up front, let them hold the line then buff them all to hell while they rip apart the enemy line. Might be very effective, but about as much fun as spamming heals.

If the buffs are weak, they probably aren't worth casting and why exactly would any competitive group take you over another tank?

I stated this in another thread - tie the buff pulses to attack/block/taunt moves. That way the KOTBS can be an effective tank and buffer at the same time. Ditch the whole "stepping back and buffing" schtick.

Edit: To address an earlier post I would be very, very surprised if a KOTBS could buff effectively while tanking. The descriptions talk about twisting buffs for maximum effect - fitting those in between blocks, taunts, special attacks all with global cooldowns... I'm not seeing it.

ah ok so the real issue is that you dont think you're capable of keeping up 2-3 aura/shout type buff while tanking. sad.
Some tank use debuffs , some use buffs. they are still tanks , nowhere did they state that it's support. In all the podcast they are still put in the tank archetype list .
SM are offensive/evading tanks. Kotbs are heavy armored , shield using , teambuffing tank. stop being crybabies , lol seriously ... you really think that players while complain about tank ....tanking? It would be like asking a warrior in wow to stand back and use his shout only .. wth is wrong with you ppl. The command system is added bonus to the tanking , much less boring than just stand there spamming taunt.

edit: and sorry to say i have much more confidence ( due to a pretty good track record) in mythic than you it seems. it's not Daoc bards , they are a Primary tanking class. and I fully believe Mythic will do them in that regard , it wont be too tough to buff and tanks , it's how the class works.

you must think that it goes like this .

Mythic dev #1 : Ummm , so let's do Kotbs . How should we design thoses guys.
Mythic dev #2 : I know , awesome !!! let's call em tanks. but they stand back and buffs not tanking at all.
Mythic dev #1 : great! , who woudnt love that. lets make it absolutly impossible to mix it up , can't keep the buffs up if you tank. that will force em to buff all the time. ok we got this this pretty much done.
Mythic dev#2 : Don't forget , big armor and shields ,+ mostly tanking/offensive abilities and most likely a "defensive" mastery path. Just to make sure they think they are a tank class.
Mythic dev#1 : Ok theses guys are done. next

seriously , wtf? they obviously want the class to fufill his archetype role , with maybe a more buff specialised mastery path , for thoses that love the whole tactician thing , but that it. I think mythic knows what there doing.

[Boldan]

kotbs kinda sounds like a skald or a bard from daoc. i played both mostly a skald so im hoping if u use a 2h ur dmg will be decent and you bring buffs and bonuses to the group making it easy to get invites lol. :) i also read somewhere i think that some of his chants reduce the melee dmg your grp takes or gives a temp speed boost to your group kinda like the speed of sound ra.

[Remis Mormegil]

You took it wrong there, I meant that KotBS' style is the only one that intimidates me. However it's also one of the two reasons that I want to play WAR: PvP focus and an iconic character for my taste.

I actually have a friend that really liked the twisting mechanic in Daoc. He described it as kind of a combo chain going on that gets ridiculously powerful the better you get at combining auras. This play style sounds like something that will actually keep my attention. However I don't think all the buffs for the kotbs are tied in this way.

[kingsword]

Ridiculously powerful to the point of killing enemies? :) Any kind of buffing that requires button mashing isn't healthy when you do it months or even years. Both physically and psychologically. And that's assuming it's fun, (powerful doesn't equate to fun at all) surely rare tastes are out there but it's the utmost unluckiness to have KotBS aiming at those rare people.

[Remis Mormegil]

Ridiculously powerful to the point of killing enemies? :) Any kind of buffing that requires button mashing isn't healthy when you do it months or even years. Both physically and psychologically. And that's assuming it's fun, (powerful doesn't equate to fun at all) surely rare tastes are out there but it's the utmost unluckiness to have KotBS aiming at those rare people.


From what my buddy describes it theres no button mashing at all. In fact if you do you won't get anywhere with it. No it seems to be more along the line of a timing combo thing. Lets say you have 3 basic auras. You start your fight and activate aura 1 which lasts lets say 6 secs (since that seems to be what everyone is talking about) off of some sort of attack or whatever, 3 secs in you activate aura number 2 and both aura 1and 2 fuse into Twisting aura "A" and the timer is reset to last say 8 secs it'll have the properties of aura 1 and 2 with an additional effect. Then you hit aura number 3 and that also fuses and gives more effects and such.

The challenging part is that theres only so many auras you can twist in the given amount of time, each one refreshes the timer but they don't all have the same max timer, more powerful effects usually have a lower time on them but they're worth it, and some of them have triggers rather then just a button you just hit and there its on. Kinda like it's tied to an attack or some sort of effect like lets say a critical hit or whatever. Basically it's a type of combo mechanic in a way.

[kingsword]

Now, if that would be a caster's casting system or something like that, it could be worth the effort and give a sense of accomplishment. However, we're talking about buffs here. Buffs. They don't damage, they don't heal, they're merely augmentations to character stats. No matter what a buff alters or how much alters, it doesn't accomplish anything by itself. It should never be a challenge.

Think of a driving game where you play the mechanic and constantly augment and modify the car so that someone else drives it. Would such a game sell any more than a handful of copies? :p

Buffing is a chore and should involve a minimum amount of tedium with it. This is coming from someone who's buffing people for 3 years now. And I've yet to see anyone who likes more complex buffing systems.

Especially in a game which Paul Barnett even criticizes pure healing and says they'll be done with it, I fail to see why buffing should be the main challenge of a class.

And once again, I want to add: A complex system might even 'sound' fine. However it 'feels' something else when you do it 27612631825 times, which in an MMO you'll do sooner or later.

[Foofmonger]

My idea for twisting in WAR is as follows.

Auras have 30 second cooldowns (in general), auras are the AoE effects that can be twisted.

There are a number of different auras to select from, each one lasts 12 seconds.

You can recast a different aura 8 seconds after casting an aura.

So it would work like.

You hit Aura a, its effects last 12 seconds. You can't cast any new auras for 8 seconds, and cant cast aura a again for 30 seconds.

So 8 seconds later, you cast aura B, aura A fades 4 seconds after aura B has been in effect.

4 seconds after that, you cast Aura C, and 4 seconds after its been in effect, Aura B fades (20 seconds into the whole deal so far).

So now at 24 seconds, you cast Aura D, aura C fades at 28 seconds, and at 32 seconds, you can now either recast Aura A, or cast Aura E.

This system eliminates the previous twisting system of constantly hitting the same old buttons again over and over in a row to just keep up effects that should have already been passive.

All Auras should be potentially powerful, and not just a slight healing regen or armor buff or something.

[Remis Mormegil]

Now, if that would be a caster's casting system or something like that, it could be worth the effort and give a sense of accomplishment. However, we're talking about buffs here. Buffs. They don't damage, they don't heal, they're merely augmentations to character stats. No matter what a buff alters or how much alters, it doesn't accomplish anything by itself. It should never be a challenge.

Think of a driving game where you play the mechanic and constantly augment and modify the car so that someone else drives it. Would such a game sell any more than a handful of copies? :p

Buffing is a chore and should involve a minimum amount of tedium with it. This is coming from someone who's buffing people for 3 years now. And I've yet to see anyone who likes more complex buffing systems.

Especially in a game which Paul Barnett even criticizes pure healing and says they'll be done with it, I fail to see why buffing should be the main challenge of a class.

And once again, I want to add: A complex system might even 'sound' fine. However it 'feels' something else when you do it 27612631825 times, which in an MMO you'll do sooner or later.

Actually you might want to rethink that...

For example it's really easy to abuse this kind of system. Lets say that the buffs you just twisted give a nice haste buff to attack speed and moment with lifesteal, and a higher critical hit rate. This can easily get over powered because the lifesteal can be a percentage of the damage you do and the crit rate would enhance that followed by a good proc rate because your swinging faster. It really depends what the buffs actually change. It's possible to do some pretty messed up combos. I also heavily doubt that buffing in this game will be a chore. It'll likely be a op side effect.

[sindbad]

I question the amount of fun resulting from repeatedly pressing 1-2-3 on your keyboard.

I'd much rather like to see auras behave more like in-combat tactics. You can have 1-2 auras at a time and they have long / indefinite durations.
This way you still have to choose the right aura/combination of auras for each situation but it's not annoying to keep them up.

Repetition is never fun.

[kingsword]

Thread from Chosen Forum (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26388)..

[19:14] <~DelmarWynn> WNxKenwayy: In the last dev chat you said the Chosen would rely on 'twisting'. Does this mean the Chosen will be most effective when trying to overlap aura's and not trying to fight?
[19:14] <@[WAR]Gersh> Chosen Players will have 3 diffrent styles of play
[19:15] <@[WAR]Gersh> Aura's are shorter duration and also have the benifit of unlocking additional attacks
[19:15] <@[WAR]Gersh> So a chosen could just support twist buff and debuff auras
[19:15] <@[WAR]Gersh> or they may pick one type of aura and twist it with the attacks it unlocks
[19:16] <@[WAR]Gersh> or really skilled players who do not fear the CT, will twist multiple auras and attacks in various sequences

Oh well, yay for class design which promotes CTS. Certainly promotes playing certain two classes now, isn't it?

[Remis Mormegil]

Thread from Chosen Forum (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26388)..


Oh well, yay for class design which promotes CTS. Certainly promotes playing certain two classes now, isn't it?

lol if only you knew.

[Vimes]

Thread from Chosen Forum (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26388)..

Oh well, yay for class design which promotes CTS. Certainly promotes playing certain two classes now, isn't it?

You´re not really taking the CT comment seriously, do you?
That was a joke, so how about we just wait and see how it´s going to be implemented, shall we?

[kingsword]

If I was, I'd jump off the boat already. Not like a game > health.

But it shows how they're aiming the gameplay to be for the class and pretty much denounce people who advertise keeping calm because "twisting may not be what it used to be".

I wonder if Collector's Edition will come bundled with Logitech G15.. :roll:

[Okri]

As Vimes said: Learn to take a joke. Will twisting really give you Carpal Tunnel? No. Will it have a difficulty ranging from fairly tricky to mildly hard? Yes. At any rate, it will be more difficult than just standing around, hitting things with your sword. Of course, that is a bit like saying riding a bicycle is more difficult than being in a coma.

Can you choose not to twist, at the cost of efficiency? Yes. Then again, you can choose to run around naked with a balloon in you hand, at the cost of efficiency. Twisting will be what separates the good Knights from the rest.

Anyhow, if you have an idea as to create an interesting mechanic to make the Knight different from the other Order careers, feel free to share it.

[Sev]

Quite honestly we are not here to come up with any interesting mechanics, we are not getting payed for it after all, are we?

As a matter of fact twisting sucks because it is boring. Simple as that. You have to watch timers more than wots happening around you, which is not fun. Ofc i can choose not to twist but then my efficiency is down in the cellar. Do i need a class who isnt played as it should be? No.

Saying that someone who does twist well is a good player is a bit too much i suppose. It hasnt got to do with alot of skill, more or less if you are willing to forfeit your own playfun for others just to reach your own classes peak of efficiency. Hmm wasnt there a class in *beep* were that was the case aswell...? Ahh yes, now i remember ;)

- Sev

[kingsword]

Can you choose not to twist, at the cost of efficiency? Yes. Then again, you can choose to run around naked with a balloon in you hand, at the cost of efficiency. Twisting will be what separates the good Knights from the rest.

This is exactly the problem with this whole idea? Can you not do it? Yes. Can you afford to not do it? No. Quite the hypocrisy.

Saying that someone who does twist well is a good player is a bit too much i suppose. It hasnt got to do with alot of skill, more or less if you are willing to forfeit your own playfun for others just to reach your own classes peak of efficiency. Hmm wasnt there a class in *beep* were that was the case aswell...? Ahh yes, now i remember ;)

- Sev

Very true, I have already spent 2-3 years like that. I'm alright with buffing, commands sound okay. What's not alright is how they are applied. To be honest, I could never ever guess that such a weird and totally unnecessary system can be thought of. In fact, as it seems, it wasn't even a 'working-as-designed' system back in DAoC. One that the majority of the players weren't fond of. So I'm even more baffled to see them carrying it over here.

I also don't see why people who are going for other classes are confronting us who will need to deal with it. If anything, you people should be supporting a system which is accessible to more people as other classes will benefit from the results directly.