Witchy Tidbits

[Xurré]

“It doesn’t prove anything.”

That, or something along those lines, we hear quite often whenever there’s some official tidbit from the developers which could be interpreted as possibly meaning that Witch Elves might be a playable career. And they’re right, it doesn’t.

However, there are quite a few tidbits like that. And I thought it might be fun to list them all in a single place. Gives us something to do, right? ;)

If I miss any tidbits then please note them and I’ll add them to the list. Also note that these aren’t specifically in any order. And I hope I represent the counter points adequately, if not them let me know and I’ll amend.


Tidbit 1

The WAR Cinematic Trailer (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/video/easterEggs/WAR_Promo_081606.html) (see here (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/video/) for other formats)

The cinematic trailer starts with an orc (Choppa it seems) being catapulted against a castle wall, after which it shows three battle, one for each racial pairing in WAR. For each pairing it shows a single character from one race fighting against a single character from the opposing race. The elf pairing here has a battle of a dark elf Witch Elf against a high elf Mage.

Reasoning

They’re specifically chosen to show the three racial pairings players get to play and, considering that WAR is an RvR game, specifically pitted single characters against each other, generally being a draw in each case, instead of showing them fight some monster or other. Thus the trailer seems to be an indication of what classes players get to play (similar to how the WoW trailer also features classes players get to play). After all, what fun is it to see NPCs fight?

The cinematic trailer was, for me, originally proof that Witch Elves would be playable and thus the reason why I got more involved with Warhammer. It was only later that I heard that the trailer wasn’t necessarily indication of which classes were to be playable. But just looking at the trailer one gets the distinct impression that those are all classes players would get to play.

At the very least it seems to show that at one point they were fairly certain that those were going to be player careers.

Counter

The trailer also shows a Slayer which definitely isn’t a player career (though they’re still in the game). Though the developers have expressed a desire to have Slayers in the game as a player career (and they might add it at a later date as some sort of advanced career) they apparently ran into some problems with implementing it (particularly concerning their (lack of) armor and the fact that Slayers are suicidal).

Conclusion

It doesn’t prove anything. One can argue that four out of five classes being a career (assuming that the elves will get some kind of mage career, which seems exceedingly likely) means the odds are in favour of Witch Elves being one too. And one can argue that at the very least it shows that at some point the developers wanted it to be in. But it doesn’t prove anything because Slayers are in the same boat and aren’t a player career either.


Tidbit 2

The Making of the WAR Cinematic Trailer (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/behindTheScenes/theMakingOf/WARCinematicTrailerPartThree.php)

After the elf part of the trailer was released Mythic published the above “making of”. Considering that it describes the elf sequence it’s no surprise that a Witch Elf is once again shown here (and, in all fairness, perhaps this tidbit should be considered part of the previous one). But I particularly wanted to pull out the following quotes (with the underlining added by me):

Step Two: Storyboards

As you can see from the storyboards, we took another crack at the action, this time featuring a Dark Elf Sorceress (female character, check! Magic, check!) and High Elf White Lion (Cool warrior class, check!). All looked pretty good, except we went a bit too far by giving the White Lion a cool new ability – the Lion’s Roar – that we could not guarantee would be in the game (or guarantee Games Workshop would approve) So we scratched that battle and finally settled on the Witch Elf vs. Mage pairing.Step Three: Concept Art

Next, work began on the concept art for the characters. As the development team was focused on Greenskins and Dwarfs, there was very little game reference to share with Blur. Thus we turned to Games Workshop for their original reference material and input.
Reasoning

The underlined sections show that they wanted things that they wanted in the game. So if nothing else it at least proves that Witch Elves are in the game.

Counter

But it doesn’t prove that they’ll be a player career. It’s no surprise that they’ll be in as NPCs, as likely all different dark elf units will be.

Conclusion

It doesn’t prove anything. But at least it might be considered to strengthen the first tidbit a little.


Tidbit 3

Paul Barnett interview by Jeuxonline 2 of 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMRSLP6tKc)

At one point in this video the (French) interviewer asks about the Assassin class for the dark elves, at which point Paul interrupts him to say that there is no assassin class. But he follows it up with saying that there’s some really cool stuff in dark elves, like witches and hags. Here’s a short transcript (again, with underlines added by me):

Jeux: It’s about the Assassin class in dark elves… with Shadow Blades…
Paul: There will be no assassin class. No stealth fighting. Positional fighting, yes. Ability to be invisible, hide and grief people to death, no. One of Mark’s global rules.
Jeux: Ok, that’s no problem.
Paul: There’s tons and tons of really, really cool stuff in dark elves. So don’t worry about that. Were witches and hags and sorcerers and sword-blades and all sorts of stuff that’s just fantastic. …
The segment in the video is from 6:22 until about 7:17. Note that I cut off the part where he basically says that Goths (I’m assuming) who want to stealth shouldn’t play this game because WAR is all about open fighting to the death.

Reasoning

In a question about a dark elf class, and note that Paul realizes that it’s about a class, the first thing that comes to his mind when reassuring someone despite the absence of a certain class is “witches” (and second is “hags”, which are also Witch Elves). This seems at least an indication that Witches are in and shows that they’re iconic to the developers too.

Counter

He probably isn’t specifically mentioning player careers and might just be talking NPCs again. For example, he also mentions “sword-blades” which don’t sound like a career. And “witches” and “hags” are basically the same thing twice. He might just be saying “there isn’t stealth gameplay, but there are other really cool things you’ll encounter in your gameplay.

Conclusion

It doesn’t prove anything. Though at least the developers are well aware of Witches, and again this proves that they’re in the game at least, this doesn’t prove that they’re a player career.


Tidbit 4

Paul’s Video Blog, October 2006: “Dark Elf Women” (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/behindTheScenes/vidPhoneDiaries/windowopen/october_2006/view03_2006_october.html)

In every newsletter there’s usually a lot of little videos recorded my Paul with his video phone. In the above he has the camera pointed to himself and says the following (again, underscores are mine):

Some people might be getting worried that Ted has somehow bribed me. I’m just saying lots of things that he’s always wanted to hear. So against his will I’ve now got to commit to camera stuff that does upset him. We’re having girl dwarfs. Now Ted is waving his arms on the other side of the camera going “No no no”. Ted believes that any form of females in the game apart from deep-busted dark elf [censored] shouldn’t be allowed. Because unless they’re clearly [censored] what’s the point of having them in the game. And he goes “nobody is going to play a dwarf girl. No one is going to play them. No one is going to play Empire. No one is going to play any of that. The only thing they’re going to play is dark elf [censored].” He’s wrong, and we’re going to do them. …
I’ve cut the last bit off where they’re talking about how Ted doesn’t want marketing to see this and should delete it.

Reasoning

They’re talking about female player characters and are talking about how Ted feels the only female player characters in the game should be dark elf women. Yet they seem unwilling to say exactly what dark elves will be women as Paul keeps censoring themselves. This is possibly because they’re not allowed (by marketing) to divulge the dark elf careers yet (and they are clearly talking about what players get to play). Witch Elves are the clearest “deep-busted dark elf females” that people would want to play (for their sex appeal alone).

Counter

There’s no proof that he’s saying “Witches” behind his hand there and he could just be self-censoring an offensive way to say “women” (such at the word that it almost exactly like “witches”, but starts with a ‘b’ instead). It’s also no proof of what’ll be in the game since they’re just discussing what Ted thinks players would play; it’s fairly old after all and they might not have any clue as to the elf careers yet.

Conclusion

It doesn’t prove anything. Though one has to wonder why they didn’t just say “women” like marketing seems to want us to believe they mean (looking at the name of the clip). It’s also likely that at that point they at least had a fairly good idea of what they’d want the dark elf careers to be.


Tidbit 5

Game Backstory – Age of Reckoning: Part II – Dark Omens (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/gameBackstory/partTwo.php)

On the official WAR website they have a backstory for the game which tells of how Chaos invades the Empire and how Malekith manages to get the greenskins to attack the dwarfs so that the Empire will have to turn to the high elves for help, drawing them away from their island and thus leaving an opening for the dark elves to attack it.

Part of the story is as follows (again, underscores added by me):

The Witch King commands that every forge and furnace in the realm be brought to bear in the crafting of weapons, armor and siege machines. The Beastmasters of Karond Kar are ordered to select the strongest and most ferocious creatures in their pens and ready them for battle. The fierce Witch Elves of Khaine prepare for bloody sacrifice to the Lord of Murder. Morathi, the Hag Queen, summons forth the most powerful Sorceresses from the Convents and trains them to lead the armies of the Dark Elves. As his people prepare for the coming war, Malekith draws up his plans against the Dwarfs.
This section, as you can see, describes the dark elves getting ready for the war.

Reasoning

There are three dark elf units specifically mentioned in this section: Beastmasters, Witch Elves and Sorceresses. All three are very iconic to dark elves. And, from reading that text, someone unfamiliar with the setting would get the idea “dark elves have Beastmasters, Sorceresses and Witch Elves” and might get the idea that thus they’d be able to play them. So while it doesn’t prove that they’re in as a player career it does prove, again, that Mythic is aware of how iconic they are (which is an important requirement for any career). And it shows, again, Mythic using Witch Elves to lure people to playing their game.

Counter

It’s just an example of a couple of dark elf units getting ready for the war and doesn’t show that they’ll be careers in the game. They might as well have listed any three units, like “the Corsairs ready the Black Arks to sail across the seas”. And they talk about a lot of things in the background, not all of them are going to be a player career (they talk about hunters and warriors, monsters and war machines, etc). One could also argue that the witches are preparing sacrifices so that they can stay home to make the sacrifices for the armies doing the fighting. Also, some have argued that the high elves getting a pet class might make the Beastmaster as a career unlikely (though others say it doesn’t mean any such thing), meaning this can’t be a hint suggesting Witch Elves either.

Conclusion

It doesn’t prove anything. At best it might be an indication that they’re in the game at all (as NPCs); after all for Witch Elves “bloody sacrifice” is “getting in the middle of battle and ripping enemies to shreds”. It just seems telling that, once again, Witch Elves are named so clearly.


Tidbit 6

Armies of WAR – Dark Elves (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/DarkElves/DarkElf.php)

Very recently, two weeks ago as of this writing in fact, Mythic put up the background page for the dark elves. Every of the player races has a page like this listing a bit of background on the race and then a list of the player careers (which are currently listed as “Coming Soon”). In particular it has the following section (with, again, underscores by me):

In battle, the ruthless warriors of Naggaorth blend Elven discipline with savagery and ferocity, for the patron deity of the Dark Elves is Kaela Mensha Khaine, the bloody-handed God and the Lord of Murder. Nowhere is this more evident than in the beautiful and deadly Witch Elves, who serve in the Temples of Khaine and revel in violence and bloodshed.
Reasoning

Once again Witch Elves are mentioned by name on the official WAR pages, and unlike the previous time this time it is the only dark elf unit mentioned specifically by name. What’s more, they’re named in such a way as to almost say “Witch Elves are the most iconic representation of this aspect of dark elves”. That alone could be considered proof enough, but what’s more is that with all the other race pages almost any unit specifically mentioned by name (Black Orcs, Goblin Shamans, Chaos Champions, and Chaos Marauders) is also a career (though once under a different name); those that aren’t generally don’t seem to make a good career to begin with (such as Snotlings). Besides, it’s very, very recent and one would think they’d reworded that section if Witches aren’t actually playable (which they certainly know by now if they are or not).

Counter

The text is just a background description and doesn’t list any careers. For example, none of the Order pages list any player careers in the backgrounds (though one could argue for high elf Swordmasters). The Greenskin examples don’t count because they’re from the section describing the Orc and Goblin races. Besides, the pages also list Hobgoblins, Snotlings, Beastmen and Daemons, none of which are careers. And the Chaos Champion isn’t actually a career; it’s called a Chaos Chosen in the game.

Conclusion

It doesn’t prove anything. Though once again Witch Elves are highlighted (note, for example, that Slayers aren’t mentioned on the dwarf page at all despite being in the trailer) and as the only potential career named it does seem quite likely that Witches will be a career in some form (maybe with a different name, just like Chaos Champions). It’s just as likely to be some writer’s fancy.


Tidbit 7

Scanned Beckett Massive Online Gamer article – Waging War! (http://only-war.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15347)

Also very recent (as in a few days ago as of this writing) is an interview conducted by MOG with Josh Drescher, talking about WAR. The article is mostly about Knights of the Blazing Sun and Chaos Marauders (and quite interesting in its own right), as well as some on the Greenskin/Dwarf revisitation, but at the end also contains a snippet regarding elves (again, underlining added by me):

Josh: I can promise you that the Elves are going to get all the attention and love that they deserve. The Dark Elves are my favourite of all of the Warhammer races; the lore behind them and their deviant ways are things that I find very appealing.

I’m also looking forward to working on some of the most engaging females in the game. With the Dark Elves especially, their lore demands that certain careers must be female only or be played in a certain way, but I’m really looking forward to that pairing because it’s sort of the place where a lot of people will be going “Ugh, Elves again? There are Elves in every game.” We’re looking forward to showing that, actually no, our Elves are not Tolkien’s Elves or D&D Elves… our Elves are Warhammer Elves.

The High Elves are bitter and angry and spiteful because at one point, they lived in a beautiful world. Since then they’ve lost a lot: their empire is gone, society is on the decline and half of their relatives are basically on “lets go kill each other” terms.

The Dark Elves are completely psychotic, blood-thirsty slave drivers destroying everything in their wake, and while they’re very devious, they’re also quite interesting and engaging. For many of us, we just cannot wait to start working on this area. I know it’s a form of torture to go month after month without us releasing any information, but when we do we think people will be really, really excited.
At the moment I’ll echo your torture sentiment, Josh… and I hope I can be really, really excited too. ;)

Reasoning

This text seems to be a clear indication of at least one female-only career among the dark elves (and he’s definitely referring to player careers there). The only candidates we see are Sorceresses and Witch Elves, and Mythic has already stated that they have the ok from Mythic to include male Sorcerers. So that leave it as a very, very clear hint that Witch Elves (in some form) will be a career.

Counter

It’s quite possible that Mythic has decided to make Sorceresses female-only after all (and will include some male Sorcerer NPCs). Or they could be making up a new career (like some temple of Khaine-related female only melee healer as some people have wanted to see). He’s also saying “A or B”, a statement which is true as long as one of the two is true (so as long as there are careers that demand to be played in a certain way he’s telling the truth even if there aren’t female only careers).

Conclusion

Is doesn’t prove anything. At best it seems an indication that there will be at least one female-only dark elf career (the “A or B” argument is very weak because in that case he just could’ve said “B”), but it’s not proof that it will be Witch Elves (even if they are by far the most likely candidate for a female-only career, even more so than Sorceresses who, even in lore, aren’t restricted to being female only).


Tidbit 8

General Q&A (http://games.internode.on.net/filelist.php?filedetails=10495) from last weekend’s EA-Mythic HQ fansite gathering

Just last weekend (as of this writing) a lot of fansite admins and such gathered at the EA Mythic offices where they got to play the game, get lots of new bits of information (and, it seems, even help design a public quest for the elves) and ask lots of questions. During one general Q&A session someone asked if we had seen the last of the gender specific classes. The answer:

Have we seen the last of gender specific classes? No comment.

We are an equal opportunity offender.
You can see it in the above-linked video from 12:02 to 12:22.

Reasoning

All the careers in dwarfs, greenskins, empire and chaos are known and all the gender-specific careers are male-only (or gender neutral while looking male). So to be equal opportunity offenders there have to be female-only careers and they have to be among the elves. Seeing as the high elves don’t really have gender-restricted units and, as noted in the previous tidbit, dark elves only really have Witch Elves, it seems likely that Witches are in.

Counter

All gender specific careers are currently on the destruction side so to be equal opportunity could mean that they’re adding gender specific careers on the order side (among the high elves). And there is at least one (distant) possibility for a career that’s female only for them: Maiden Guards (AKA Handmaidens of the Everqueen).

Conclusion

It doesn’t prove anything. And in fact this is indeed a very weak tidbit on its own, but it does serve to strengthen the previous one (as that one hints strongly that there is a female only career among the dark elves).


Final Word

It doesn’t prove anything; it still doesn’t have to mean anything. But other classes (like the Sorceress, the Shadow Warrior and the Swordmaster) have been considered unofficially confirmed with a lot fewer and lot less certain tidbits. And while it doesn’t confirm anything, that’s true, I hope people will understand why some of us feel that there seems to be a strong indication that Witch Elves might be in as a playable career.

With Elves are, again and again, brought up in various places by Mythic in regards to dark elves (what little they’ve been bringing things up in regards to dark elves). Whenever there’s dark elves there seem to be Witch Elves too: the cinematic trailer, the game background story, and the player race description. There have also been numerous hints of at least one female-only career among the dark elf careers and Witch Elves are the most obvious choice. So is it really that strange that many of us are thinking it likely that Witch Elves are in as a player career?

We might just be hearing what we want to hear… but then people might also not be hearing what they don’t want to hear. Still, it doesn’t prove anything.

Blood, the wait is killing me…


- Xurré

[Cranmer]

Ok Xurré here's another one for you (pretty weak but still...;)).
http://www.only-war.com/AugEvent/OW5.jpg
I can't read weapon name but it clearly states:
Skill: Dagger
Race: Dark Elves
Daggers would be quite popular weapon in Druchii treacherous society I suppose but when I think which career could use those, Witch Elves come to my mind first. :)

[Morag]

You're definitely right, it doesn't prove anything. I think that Witch Elves have about the same chance of making it in as the other units do. There are several unique things about them that would make them a good choice, just like there are good things about all the other units that would make them good choices as well. Despite your bias towards Witch Elves I think this is a pretty nice post laying out all the supposed hints towards them while providing a more neutral counter-argument. Also, it would be foolish to think that Mythic's marketing department doesn't go over everything they release to the public with a fine toothed comb. It could be they are deliberately dropping hints for people to pick up on. Or, it could be that the stuff they are releasing is just fluff meant to string people along and keep them interested.

One thing I would add would be to the part where you bring up the game backstory. There are three classes listed: Witch Elves, Sorceresses and Beast Masters. Many think that the Beast Master would be a pet class, and as we know the other pet class will belong to the High Elves. That's not conclusive proof by any means, but I believe it fits in with your post as a potential counter-argument.

Looking at Witch Elves from a game development standpoint I think that they would be one of my last choices as one of the four classes that are in at launch. First of all, there are already (arguably too many) sexually restricted careers on the destruction side. Secondly, the Witch Elf implemented in the way most befitting their "lore" sounds very similar to Choppas. They are certainly "iconic" to Dark Elves, but you can still include them in the game as npcs. You also don't need them as one of the classes in the game just to attract people with their sexual nature. Box art, intro movies and ads can all include Witch Elf-esque art to draw people towards it, and many games do just that. I do hope that if they aren't in at launch that they will be added down the line, like they plan to do with Slayers.

Anyways, I think that it's too hard to predict Mythic. At this point all we can do is just see how it all unfolds in a couple weeks. I trust that whatever they did end up doing will be cool despite what the classes are. I am looking forward to Leipzig, if anything just to end all the speculation about who is in and who is out.

[Zoatibix]

Its a lot of circumstantial evidance, I grant you. But that doesn't make it anymore concrete.

I hope of course that you are right and Witches are in.

I'm not sure which I'm looking forward to more at this point: Leipzeig or moving to my shiny new flat....

[Kellaris]

Ok Xurré here's another one for you (pretty weak but still...;)).
http://www.only-war.com/AugEvent/OW5.jpg
I can't read weapon name but it clearly states:
Skill: Dagger
Race: Dark Elves
Daggers would be quite popular weapon in Druchii treacherous society I suppose but when I think which career could use those, Witch Elves come to my mind first. :)

When it comes to daggers, Assasin should be Your first thought.;)
WE could use dagger as off hand weapon also, but the same is with corsair.

[zoa]

Yea, there are a lot of things that point to Witch Elves, but it is all just speculation. I have already come to grips with the fact that right now I believe Witch Elves will probably make the coveted melee DPS role. Witch Elves are an awesome character, and I definitely like the lore behind them, but I just don't feel right playing a female main. Basically an Executioner to me, is what a Witch Elf is to you, something that I really wanted a chance to play. Your argument about Executioners not making it though is completely valid and I do agree with it that since they could fill either tank or melee dps it points out that fact that there are other classes that could fill either better. There are things that point to them being able to fill the role, but there is just way to much pointing to them not making it. :(

Anyways, once again, a lot of hard work put into your thread, and it definitely does add quite a bit of weight to your argument that Witch Elves will/should be in the game. Thanks for all your work, even if people don't agree with it, they do appreciate it :D

[Xurré]

Ok Xurré here's another one for you (pretty weak but still...;)).
http://www.only-war.com/AugEvent/OW5.jpg
I can't read weapon name but it clearly states:
Skill: Dagger
Race: Dark Elves
Daggers would be quite popular weapon in Druchii treacherous society I suppose but when I think which career could use those, Witch Elves come to my mind first. :)
I hadn’t seen that before, so thank you for that. But I also think it is far too weak. A dagger is an extremely generic weapon that, in just about any MMO I’ve played before, any class can use. On top of that Witches, in the images and miniatures at least, tend to use swords and not daggers.


One thing I would add would be to the part where you bring up the game backstory. There are three classes listed: Witch Elves, Sorceresses and Beast Masters. Many think that the Beast Master would be a pet class, and as we know the other pet class will belong to the High Elves. That's not conclusive proof by any means, but I believe it fits in with your post as a potential counter-argument.
The problem with that is where you’re saying “the other pet class”. Who’s to say that there’s only one other pet class? In fact, if there’s a pet class on one side, wouldn’t it make sense to have one on the other side to counter it (or at the very least a class with pet-like abilities)? Wouldn’t it make more sense to have a pet class for the dark elves (after all, they like to use everyone and everything for their own purposes)? Though perhaps not technically a pet class the Dwarf Engineer has definitely enough pet-like abilities to be able to counter the Squig Herder. As far as I’m aware there is no proof at all, not even a single hint, that there’s only a single other pet class.

Anyway, I’ll not break down your post any further to counter each of your arguments (and I admit I almost had; already had it written out), that’s not what this post is about.

I am looking forward to Leipzig, if anything just to end all the speculation about who is in and who is out.
You and me both.


Its a lot of circumstantial evidance, I grant you. But that doesn't make it anymore concrete.
Perhaps, but plenty of court cases have been built purely on circumstantial evidence. Besides, this was more to show to people why some of us think that there’s a really good chance that Witches will be in (despite some insistent voices saying they’re not).

I'm not sure which I'm looking forward to more at this point: Leipzeig or moving to my shiny new flat....
Bah, lucky you. I’ve just a few hours ago been stood up by my letting agent (again) who was supposed to show me some more houses. I’ve been trying to find a place for over a month... this just hasn’t been my year so far. :(


Anyways, once again, a lot of hard work put into your thread, and it definitely does add quite a bit of weight to your argument that Witch Elves will/should be in the game. Thanks for all your work, even if people don't agree with it, they do appreciate it :D
Thank you, zoa. That’s very nice to hear. :)


- Xurré

[Kimmie]

very awesome

after all that it would be a shock if they werent in. i will be crushed.

i just wish they would say whats in.

thank you Xurré i love reading your posts. they are so good.

[Selendor]

It does seem like a very cruel joke to keep dropping all these hints if they're not planning on including Witch Elves. I mean, that'd just be ice cold. :P

[dynamo112]

About 13 more days and we'll know for sure. :p

Hang in there!! LOL

[Cronik]

i also think witch elves will most likely be in but there are alot of choices. Who knows maybe they will "Shock and Awe" us with something brand new

[Thoden Firehammer]

“It doesn’t prove anything.”

That, or something along those lines, we hear quite often whenever there’s some official tidbit from the developers which could be interpreted as possibly meaning that Witch Elves might be a playable career. And they’re right, it doesn’t.

However, there are quite a few tidbits like that. And I thought it might be fun to list them all in a single place. Gives us something to do, right? ;)

If I miss any tidbits then please note them and I’ll add them to the list. Also note that these aren’t specifically in any order. And I hope I represent the counter points adequately, if not them let me know and I’ll amend.


Tidbit 1

The WAR Cinematic Trailer (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/video/easterEggs/WAR_Promo_081606.html) (see here (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/video/) for other formats)

The cinematic trailer starts with an orc (Choppa it seems) being catapulted against a castle wall, after which it shows three battle, one for each racial pairing in WAR. For each pairing it shows a single character from one race fighting against a single character from the opposing race. The elf pairing here has a battle of a dark elf Witch Elf against a high elf Mage.

Reasoning

They’re specifically chosen to show the three racial pairings players get to play and, considering that WAR is an RvR game, specifically pitted single characters against each other, generally being a draw in each case, instead of showing them fight some monster or other. Thus the trailer seems to be an indication of what classes players get to play (similar to how the WoW trailer also features classes players get to play). After all, what fun is it to see NPCs fight?

The cinematic trailer was, for me, originally proof that Witch Elves would be playable and thus the reason why I got more involved with Warhammer. It was only later that I heard that the trailer wasn’t necessarily indication of which classes were to be playable. But just looking at the trailer one gets the distinct impression that those are all classes players would get to play.

At the very least it seems to show that at one point they were fairly certain that those were going to be player careers.

Counter

The trailer also shows a Slayer which definitely isn’t a player career (though they’re still in the game). Though the developers have expressed a desire to have Slayers in the game as a player career (and they might add it at a later date as some sort of advanced career) they apparently ran into some problems with implementing it (particularly concerning their (lack of) armor and the fact that Slayers are suicidal).

Conclusion

It doesn’t prove anything. One can argue that four out of five classes being a career (assuming that the elves will get some kind of mage career, which seems exceedingly likely) means the odds are in favour of Witch Elves being one too. And one can argue that at the very least it shows that at some point the developers wanted it to be in. But it doesn’t prove anything because Slayers are in the same boat and aren’t a player career either.


Tidbit 2

The Making of the WAR Cinematic Trailer (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/behindTheScenes/theMakingOf/WARCinematicTrailerPartThree.php)

After the elf part of the trailer was released Mythic published the above “making of”. Considering that it describes the elf sequence it’s no surprise that a Witch Elf is once again shown here (and, in all fairness, perhaps this tidbit should be considered part of the previous one). But I particularly wanted to pull out the following quotes (with the underlining added by me):


Reasoning

The underlined sections show that they wanted things that they wanted in the game. So if nothing else it at least proves that Witch Elves are in the game.

Counter

But it doesn’t prove that they’ll be a player career. It’s no surprise that they’ll be in as NPCs, as likely all different dark elf units will be.

Conclusion

It doesn’t prove anything. But at least it might be considered to strengthen the first tidbit a little.


Tidbit 3

Paul Barnett interview by Jeuxonline 2 of 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMRSLP6tKc)

At one point in this video the (French) interviewer asks about the Assassin class for the dark elves, at which point Paul interrupts him to say that there is no assassin class. But he follows it up with saying that there’s some really cool stuff in dark elves, like witches and hags. Here’s a short transcript (again, with underlines added by me):


The segment in the video is from 6:22 until about 7:17. Note that I cut off the part where he basically says that Goths (I’m assuming) who want to stealth shouldn’t play this game because WAR is all about open fighting to the death.

Reasoning

In a question about a dark elf class, and note that Paul realizes that it’s about a class, the first thing that comes to his mind when reassuring someone despite the absence of a certain class is “witches” (and second is “hags”, which are also Witch Elves). This seems at least an indication that Witches are in and shows that they’re iconic to the developers too.

Counter

He probably isn’t specifically mentioning player careers and might just be talking NPCs again. For example, he also mentions “sword-blades” which don’t sound like a career. And “witches” and “hags” are basically the same thing twice. He might just be saying “there isn’t stealth gameplay, but there are other really cool things you’ll encounter in your gameplay.

Conclusion

It doesn’t prove anything. Though at least the developers are well aware of Witches, and again this proves that they’re in the game at least, this doesn’t prove that they’re a player career.


Tidbit 4

Paul’s Video Blog, October 2006: “Dark Elf Women” (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/behindTheScenes/vidPhoneDiaries/windowopen/october_2006/view03_2006_october.html)

In every newsletter there’s usually a lot of little videos recorded my Paul with his video phone. In the above he has the camera pointed to himself and says the following (again, underscores are mine):


I’ve cut the last bit off where they’re talking about how Ted doesn’t want marketing to see this and should delete it.

Reasoning

They’re talking about female player characters and are talking about how Ted feels the only female player characters in the game should be dark elf women. Yet they seem unwilling to say exactly what dark elves will be women as Paul keeps censoring themselves. This is possibly because they’re not allowed (by marketing) to divulge the dark elf careers yet (and they are clearly talking about what players get to play). Witch Elves are the clearest “deep-busted dark elf females” that people would want to play (for their sex appeal alone).

Counter

There’s no proof that he’s saying “Witches” behind his hand there and he could just be self-censoring an offensive way to say “women” (such at the word that it almost exactly like “witches”, but starts with a ‘b’ instead). It’s also no proof of what’ll be in the game since they’re just discussing what Ted thinks players would play; it’s fairly old after all and they might not have any clue as to the elf careers yet.

Conclusion

It doesn’t prove anything. Though one has to wonder why they didn’t just say “women” like marketing seems to want us to believe they mean (looking at the name of the clip). It’s also likely that at that point they at least had a fairly good idea of what they’d want the dark elf careers to be.


Tidbit 5

Game Backstory – Age of Reckoning: Part II – Dark Omens (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/gameBackstory/partTwo.php)

On the official WAR website they have a backstory for the game which tells of how Chaos invades the Empire and how Malekith manages to get the greenskins to attack the dwarfs so that the Empire will have to turn to the high elves for help, drawing them away from their island and thus leaving an opening for the dark elves to attack it.

Part of the story is as follows (again, underscores added by me):


This section, as you can see, describes the dark elves getting ready for the war.

Reasoning

There are three dark elf units specifically mentioned in this section: Beastmasters, Witch Elves and Sorceresses. All three are very iconic to dark elves. And, from reading that text, someone unfamiliar with the setting would get the idea “dark elves have Beastmasters, Sorceresses and Witch Elves” and might get the idea that thus they’d be able to play them. So while it doesn’t prove that they’re in as a player career it does prove, again, that Mythic is aware of how iconic they are (which is an important requirement for any career). And it shows, again, Mythic using Witch Elves to lure people to playing their game.

Counter

It’s just an example of a couple of dark elf units getting ready for the war and doesn’t show that they’ll be careers in the game. They might as well have listed any three units, like “the Corsairs ready the Black Arks to sail across the seas”. And they talk about a lot of things in the background, not all of them are going to be a player career (they talk about hunters and warriors, monsters and war machines, etc). One could also argue that the witches are preparing sacrifices so that they can stay home to make the sacrifices for the armies doing the fighting.

Conclusion

It doesn’t prove anything. At best it might be an indication that they’re in the game at all (as NPCs); after all for Witch Elves “bloody sacrifice” is “getting in the middle of battle and ripping enemies to shreds”. It just seems telling that, once again, Witch Elves are named so clearly.


Tidbit 6

Armies of WAR – Dark Elves (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/DarkElves/DarkElf.php)

Very recently, two weeks ago as of this writing in fact, Mythic put up the background page for the dark elves. Every of the player races has a page like this listing a bit of background on the race and then a list of the player careers (which are currently listed as “Coming Soon”). In particular it has the following section (with, again, underscores by me):


Reasoning

Once again Witch Elves are mentioned by name on the official WAR pages, and unlike the previous time this time it is the only dark elf unit mentioned specifically by name. What’s more, they’re named in such a way as to almost say “Witch Elves are the most iconic representation of this aspect of dark elves”. That alone could be considered proof enough, but what’s more is that with all the other race pages almost any unit specifically mentioned by name (Black Orcs, Goblin Shamans, Chaos Champions, and Chaos Marauders) is also a career (though once under a different name); those that aren’t generally don’t seem to make a good career to begin with (such as Snotlings). Besides, it’s very, very recent and one would think they’d reworded that section if Witches aren’t actually playable (which they certainly know by now if they are or not).

Counter

The text is just a background description and doesn’t list any careers. For example, none of the Order pages list any player careers in the backgrounds (though one could argue for high elf Swordmasters). The Greenskin examples don’t count because they’re from the section describing the Orc and Goblin races. Besides, the pages also list Hobgoblins, Snotlings, Beastmen and Daemons, none of which are careers. And the Chaos Champion isn’t actually a career; it’s called a Chaos Chosen in the game.

Conclusion

It doesn’t prove anything. Though once again Witch Elves are highlighted (note, for example, that Slayers aren’t mentioned on the dwarf page at all despite being in the trailer) and as the only potential career named it does seem quite likely that Witches will be a career in some form (maybe with a different name, just like Chaos Champions). It’s just as likely to be some writer’s fancy.


Tidbit 7

Scanned Beckett Massive Online Gamer article – Waging War! (http://only-war.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15347)

Also very recent (as in a few days ago as of this writing) is an interview conducted by MOG with Josh Drescher, talking about WAR. The article is mostly about Knights of the Blazing Sun and Chaos Marauders (and quite interesting in its own right), as well as some on the Greenskin/Dwarf revisitation, but at the end also contains a snippet regarding elves (again, underlining added by me):


At the moment I’ll echo your torture sentiment, Josh… and I hope I can be really, really excited too. ;)

Reasoning

This text seems to be a clear indication of at least one female-only career among the dark elves (and he’s definitely referring to player careers there). The only candidates we see are Sorceresses and Witch Elves, and Mythic has already stated that they have the ok from Mythic to include male Sorcerers. So that leave it as a very, very clear hint that Witch Elves (in some form) will be a career.

Counter

It’s quite possible that Mythic has decided to make Sorceresses female-only after all (and will include some male Sorcerer NPCs). Or they could be making up a new career (like some temple of Khaine-related female only melee healer as some people have wanted to see). He’s also saying “A or B”, a statement which is true as long as one of the two is true (so as long as there are careers that demand to be played in a certain way he’s telling the truth even if there aren’t female only careers).

Conclusion

Is doesn’t prove anything. At best it seems an indication that there will be at least one female-only dark elf career (the “A or B” argument is very weak because in that case he just could’ve said “B”), but it’s not proof that it will be Witch Elves (even if they are by far the most likely candidate for a female-only career, even more so than Sorceresses who, even in lore, aren’t restricted to being female only).


Tidbit 8

General Q&A (http://games.internode.on.net/filelist.php?filedetails=10495) from last weekend’s EA-Mythic HQ fansite gathering

Just last weekend (as of this writing) a lot of fansite admins and such gathered at the EA Mythic offices where they got to play the game, get lots of new bits of information (and, it seems, even help design a public quest for the elves) and ask lots of questions. During one general Q&A session someone asked if we had seen the last of the gender specific classes. The answer:


You can see it in the above-linked video from 12:02 to 12:22.

Reasoning

All the careers in dwarfs, greenskins, empire and chaos are known and all the gender-specific careers are male-only (or gender neutral while looking male). So to be equal opportunity offenders there have to be female-only careers and they have to be among the elves. Seeing as the high elves don’t really have gender-restricted units and, as noted in the previous tidbit, dark elves only really have Witch Elves, it seems likely that Witches are in.

Counter

All gender specific careers are currently on the destruction side so to be equal opportunity could mean that they’re adding gender specific careers on the order side (among the high elves). And there is at least one (distant) possibility for a career that’s female only for them: Maiden Guards (AKA Handmaidens of the Everqueen).

Conclusion

It doesn’t prove anything. And in fact this is indeed a very weak tidbit on its own, but it does serve to strengthen the previous one (as that one hints strongly that there is a female only career among the dark elves).


Final Word

It doesn’t prove anything; it still doesn’t have to mean anything. But other classes (like the Sorceress, the Shadow Warrior and the Swordmaster) have been considered unofficially confirmed with a lot fewer and lot less certain tidbits. And while it doesn’t confirm anything, that’s true, I hope people will understand why some of us feel that there seems to be a strong indication that Witch Elves might be in as a playable career.

With Elves are, again and again, brought up in various places by Mythic in regards to dark elves (what little they’ve been bringing things up in regards to dark elves). Whenever there’s dark elves there seem to be Witch Elves too: the cinematic trailer, the game background story, and the player race description. There have also been numerous hints of at least one female-only career among the dark elf careers and Witch Elves are the most obvious choice. So is it really that strange that many of us are thinking it likely that Witch Elves are in as a player career?

We might just be hearing what we want to hear… but then people might also not be hearing what they don’t want to hear. Still, it doesn’t prove anything.

Blood, the wait is killing me…


- Xurré


Xurre i'd like to say that most of your points are valid, except for the ones about the cinimatic, you need to remeber that Mythic did not make it, they had another company do it for them.

[Xurré]

Xurre i'd like to say that most of your points are valid, except for the ones about the cinimatic, you need to remeber that Mythic did not make it, they had another company do it for them.
Oh, I know they didn’t make it (Blur did). But I’m very certain that they had their input into it; if not directly told Blur what to make. The Making Of article talks as if Mythic decided everything and showed Blur what to do. And in my experience that’s often how these things work.

And you didn’t have to quote the whole text. ;)


- Xurré

[Selendor]

And you didn’t have to quote the whole text. ;)


- Xurré


NOW do you see how it feels?! :-P

DO YOU SEE?!

[Thoden Firehammer]

Oh, I know they didn’t make it (Blur did). But I’m very certain that they had their input into it; if not directly told Blur what to make. The Making Of article talks as if Mythic decided everything and showed Blur what to do. And in my experience that’s often how these things work.

And you didn’t have to quote the whole text. ;)


- Xurré

Yeah well i realized that after I posted ...we all get brainfarts, even a me :P

[Xurré]

NOW do you see how it feels?! :-P

DO YOU SEE?!
Hey, when have you ever known me to quote a whole wall of text... in one piece... and not in sever... never mind. :oops:


- Xurré

[Tiervexx]

Looking at Witch Elves from a game development standpoint I think that they would be one of my last choices as one of the four classes that are in at launch. First of all, there are already (arguably too many) sexually restricted careers on the destruction side.

All the more reason, they are restricted towards MALES! There should be some for females.

Secondly, the Witch Elf implemented in the way most befitting their "lore" sounds very similar to Choppas. They are certainly "iconic" to Dark Elves, but you can still include them in the game as npcs. You also don't need them as one of the classes in the game just to attract people with their sexual nature. Box art, intro movies and ads can all include Witch Elf-esque art to draw people towards it, and many games do just that. I do hope that if they aren't in at launch that they will be added down the line, like they plan to do with Slayers.

Anyways, I think that it's too hard to predict Mythic. At this point all we can do is just see how it all unfolds in a couple weeks. I trust that whatever they did end up doing will be cool despite what the classes are. I am looking forward to Leipzig, if anything just to end all the speculation about who is in and who is out.

Looking at this from lore...Witch Elves are far, FAR more important then the other classes they could put in with the possible exception of sorceresses who are already confirmed...

Mythic needs to concider the possible riot if they are not playable =P

[Thoden Firehammer]

All the more reason, they are restricted towards MALES! There should be some for females.



Looking at this from lore...Witch Elves are far, FAR more important then the other classes they could put in with the possible exception of sorceresses who are already confirmed...

Mythic needs to concider the possible riot if they are not playable =P


Even though i'm not agisnt having Witch Elves, I still don't understand this argument of
"Oh Chaos have male only classes lets give Dark Elves female only classes" I don't understand the logic in this, I mean if you truly wanted to balance it out than you could have gender restricted classes on the order side, insted of gender gimping Destruction even more.

[Morag]

The problem with that is where you’re saying “the other pet class”. Who’s to say that there’s only one other pet class? In fact, if there’s a pet class on one side, wouldn’t it make sense to have one on the other side to counter it (or at the very least a class with pet-like abilities)? Wouldn’t it make more sense to have a pet class for the dark elves (after all, they like to use everyone and everything for their own purposes)? Though perhaps not technically a pet class the Dwarf Engineer has definitely enough pet-like abilities to be able to counter the Squig Herder. As far as I’m aware there is no proof at all, not even a single hint, that there’s only a single other pet class.

Anyway, I’ll not break down your post any further to counter each of your arguments (and I admit I almost had; already had it written out), that’s not what this post is about.

Symmetrical balance is a very weak argument considering how inconsistent counter examples would be. Orcs are an asexual race, but obviously male, where is the Order female only or even another asexual race to balance them? Where are the two Empire classes that are restricted? I do not consider the Engineer a pet class. He drops an immobile turret that fires indiscriminently at anything that gets close. "Pet" classes have much more control over their pets and the pets have a much wider range of abilities than taking pot shots at things that get close. By your example Runepriests and Zealots are pet classes, because they too drop stationary "objects" that negatively impact people who get close. Obviously my example is not the only way pet classes can be done, especially considering DAoC. However, it's the most traditional way and since you are talking about symmetrical balance it is also how Squig Herders operate for the most part.

The reason I even wrote that was because you were adding counter-arguments to your own points. I did not say it was bullet proof, just that it is a potential counter-argument. Personally, I actually agree with you, there could be another pet class for Dark Elves as well. My stance is always "we don't know", anything could happen. Despite my personal preference against Witch Elves I think that they have an excellent chance of making the cut. Anyways, feel free to break my posts down in the future, I enjoy the debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morag
I'm not sure which I'm looking forward to more at this point: Leipzeig or moving to my shiny new flat....

Bah, lucky you. I’ve just a few hours ago been stood up by my letting agent (again) who was supposed to show me some more houses. I’ve been trying to find a place for over a month... this just hasn’t been my year so far.This was not me, I believe Zoatibix said this.

All the more reason, they are restricted towards MALES! There should be some for females.

I disagree, that is not a good reason to limit the choices your players can make. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Looking at this from lore...Witch Elves are far, FAR more important then the other classes they could put in with the possible exception of sorceresses who are already confirmed...

Mythic needs to concider the possible riot if they are not playable =P

Could you please elaborate on how Witch Elves are more important than the other units? Otherwise, it is just opinion. Secondly, I know you are joking here, but people got over Slayer's not making it in. I don't see many people refusing to play WAR if Witch Elves aren't playable in some form come release. In fact, only one person comes to mind.

[Tiervexx]

I disagree, that is not a good reason to limit the choices your players can make. Two wrongs don't make a right.



What are you?! A freakin Sigmarite?

According to Druchii logic it is also true that 2 wrongs don't make a right...it takes about 10. First you wrong them which does not count, then they get you back, then you do atleast another 9 horrible things back...

[Tiervexx]

Could you please elaborate on how Witch Elves are more important than the other units? Otherwise, it is just opinion. Secondly, I know you are joking here, but people got over Slayer's not making it in. I don't see many people refusing to play WAR if Witch Elves aren't playable in some form come release. In fact, only one person comes to mind.

Of course it's an opinion, BUT religious leaders are always super important and are specifically in DE culture. All other military units combine might be more important but Witch Elves are more so then any ONE type of unit.

Did not say many would refuse to play...just that they'd about it lots.

Not many would near as long about the lack of...Executioners, or cold one knights.

[Morag]

What are you?! A freakin Sigmarite?

According to Druchii logic it is also true that 2 wrongs don't make a right...it takes about 10. First you wrong them which does not count, then they get you back, then you do atleast another 9 horrible things back...

You make a good point... if we were all Dark Elves in real life. In my opinion I think it is a bad idea to limit the choices of people who are paying you to play your game. It's my experience in mmo's that the perceived "evil" side is usually outnumbered. Couple that with the fact that they are forcing you to make certain choices if you want to play the evil side. Then, take a look at the good side, they don't have such problems. Couples, families and guilds are influenced by this when they come to play these types of games. Not to mention regular players who just don't want to be forced to be a chick or a dude and can roll what they want on the other team. The more you limit one aspect of a game the more you alienate it from your player base.

Anyways, assuming that there is a Dark Elf class I am interested in playing you can be sure I will be sufficiently underhanded and vindictive.

Of course it's an opinion, BUT religious leaders are always super important and are specifically in DE culture. All other military units combine might be more important but Witch Elves are more so then any ONE type of unit.

Did not say many would refuse to play...just that they'd about it lots.

Not many would near as long about the lack of...Executioners, or cold one knights.

Honestly, I don't really know enough about the fluff and lore to offer contradictary evidence to what you say about the importance of Witch Elves. Maybe someone who knows more can shed some light on it. From browsing the forums and picking up bits here and there I was under the impression that while Witch Elves certainly have power and influence in the Dark Elf society it isn't significantly more than anyone else in power. Correct me if that isn't accurate.

People will about anything, especially when it comes to ing about mmo's. I'd love it if Executioners take the melee dps role. I'd also play pretty much any other Dark Elf unit as long as I don't have to be a female. If Witch Elves are the melee dps I'll be disappointed but at least I won't be ing.

[Tiervexx]

You make a good point... if we were all Dark Elves in real life. In my opinion I think it is a bad idea to limit the choices of people who are paying you to play your game. It's my experience in mmo's that the perceived "evil" side is usually outnumbered. Couple that with the fact that they are forcing you to make certain choices if you want to play the evil side. Then, take a look at the good side, they don't have such problems. Couples, families and guilds are influenced by this when they come to play these types of games. Not to mention regular players who just don't want to be forced to be a chick or a dude and can roll what they want on the other team. The more you limit one aspect of a game the more you alienate it from your player base.

True and false. You have to have some restrictions in ANY game and Lore is important for any RPG MMO or single player. Part of the fun in RPGs is being involved in the story.

Those of you who are new to Warhammer might underestimate how many of us already had a lot of well developed concepts of this game in our minds for years. Bastardizing the old lore at this point has the potential to please some new comers but there might be a much heavier cost in us old timers...

Anyways, assuming that there is a Dark Elf class I am interested in playing you can be sure I will be sufficiently underhanded and vindictive.

Good!

Honestly, I don't really know enough about the fluff and lore to offer contradictory evidence to what you say about the importance of Witch Elves. Maybe someone who knows more can shed some light on it. From browsing the forums and picking up bits here and there I was under the impression that while Witch Elves certainly have power and influence in the Dark Elf society it isn't significantly more than anyone else in power. Correct me if that isn't accurate.

People will about anything, especially when it comes to ing about mmo's. I'd love it if Executioners take the melee dps role. I'd also play pretty much any other Dark Elf unit as long as I don't have to be a female. If Witch Elves are the melee dps I'll be disappointed but at least I won't be ing.

Of course people will always but they won't equally...

The Witch Elves have always been a stable of Warhammer Dark Elves...It was hard for me to sum up in my last post because as someone who follows the lore it just seems oh so obvious.

They have a very strong and wide appeal..some like the Chain-male bikinies...I like the "girl power" thing... Even if one is not my main there will be hell to pay if they aren't playable.

[Morag]

True and false. You have to have some restrictions in ANY game and Lore is important for any RPG MMO or single player. Part of the fun in RPGs is being involved in the story.

Those of you who are new to Warhammer might underestimate how many of us already had a lot of well developed concepts of this game in our minds for years. Bastardizing the old lore at this point has the potential to please some new comers but there might be a much heavier cost in us old timers...

Yes, I agree that restrictions of some sort are usually necessary in any game with a rich source of lore. Obviously I don't think that people need to be allowed to be Chaos Choppas or Dark Elf Chosen. My issue is with how Mythic has so far handled sexually restricted careers. Female Chaos warriors are supported by the lore and it is no stretch of the imagination to accept them as being an option during character creation.

Also, I am not arguing that Witch Elves should be allowed to be males. I am saying that I think restricting your players will alienate them and that there are already too many restrictions on character customization for Destruction to add one or two more. Especially since you can still have Dark Elves without Witch Elves as a playable career. Not only that, but you can still have Witch Elf npcs. I also have no problem with sexually restricted careers as long as it's something special. However, if Witch Elves and/or Sorceresses are in that makes 2/3 of the Destruction team restricted while Order has no such issue.

Of course people will always but they won't equally...

The Witch Elves have always been a stable of Warhammer Dark Elves...It was hard for me to sum up in my last post because as someone who follows the lore it just seems oh so obvious.

They have a very strong and wide appeal..some like the Chain-male bikinies...I like the "girl power" thing... Even if one is not my main there will be hell to pay if they aren't playable.

I'm not denying that Witch Elves are very notable. Like I said previously you can still include them in the game and still allow your players more options during character creation. I would much rather see something like Corsairs that can be both male and female while saving Witch Elves for an expansion or whatever they have planned when they put Slayers in.

typos

[Illya]

Xurré, how do you find time to do anything in life apart from writing about Witch Elves? I think I'll actually feel sorry for you when Mythic announces Corsairs as the DPS class. :p

[Thoden Firehammer]

Xurré, how do you find time to do anything in life apart from writing about Witch Elves? I think I'll actually feel sorry for you when Mythic announces Corsairs as the DPS class. :p


I think Xurre should live by my philosophy, don't expect anyone to do anything, so when they do not do it you will not be dissipointed XD

[Tiervexx]

Yes, I agree that restrictions of some sort are usually necessary in any game with a rich source of lore. Obviously I don't think that people need to be allowed to be Chaos Choppas or Dark Elf Chosen. My issue is with how Mythic has so far handled sexually restricted careers. Female Chaos warriors are supported by the lore and it is no stretch of the imagination to accept them as being an option during character creation.

I agree with you here!

Though greenskins must be male Chosen don't have to be.

Chaos heroes are disproportionately male for sure though...but that does not mean exclusive by a long shot.

I'd like to see DE's with female only casters and witch elves, then marauders and green skins as male only, everything else open.

Xurré, how do you find time to do anything in life apart from writing about Witch Elves? I think I'll actually feel sorry for you when Mythic announces Corsairs as the DPS class. :p

But...but...they ride bouts!

I won't be that heart broken...I still have my sights set on a sorceress, but I'll be disappointed.

[Morag]

I agree with you here!

Though greenskins must be male Chosen don't have to be.

Chaos heroes are disproportionately male for sure though...but that does not mean exclusive by a long shot.

I'd like to see DE's with female only casters and witch elves, then marauders and green skins as male only, everything else open.

But...but...they ride bouts!

I won't be that heart broken...I still have my sights set on a sorceress, but I'll be disappointed.

Honestly, I would have less of a problem with Witch Elves and Sorceresses if Chosen and Marauders could be female. If that comes to pass then leaving "everything else open" would constitute very little.

Now, for my personal opinion regarding Witch Elves: Well, I want to play a Dark Elf melee dps'er and I don't want to be female. I don't care how iconic they are, I love Executioners more. Give me a huge sword, a couple of my guildmates and point me to the closest group of enemy players. If Executioners don't make it (which I accept as a high possibility) then I wouldn't mind playing almost any other Dark Elf melee dps career that is not going to force me to have a female avatar. If Witch Elves are in then I won't be broken hearted either. I like the Orcs too, I'd probably play a Choppa.

[Heno]

It's my experience in mmo's that the perceived "evil" side is usually outnumbered. Couple that with the fact that they are forcing you to make certain choices if you want to play the evil side. Then, take a look at the good side, they don't have such problems. Couples, families and guilds are influenced by this when they come to play these types of games. Not to mention regular players who just don't want to be forced to be a chick or a dude and can roll what they want on the other team. The more you limit one aspect of a game the more you alienate it from your player base.

The flaw in logic being that I somehow doubt a half naked elf chick who fights with duel wielding swords would be anything other than MASSIVELY popular.

[Kellaris]

The flaw in logic being that I somehow doubt a half naked elf chick who fights with duel wielding swords would be anything other than MASSIVELY popular.

First, I personally do not like the idea of class popular becouse of it is half naked.

Second. This popularity will be balanced by people who don't like playing chicks. (Yes, that players exists)

Thrid this kind of carrer will make DE dominated by females, wich is wrong. Druchii are not girlsband.

[Xurré]

Symmetrical balance is a very weak argument considering how inconsistent counter examples would be.
True, but that wasn’t quite meant to be the argument as such. More, people have been assuming that there’ll only be one other pet class while it’s just as likely that there’ll be two.

There does need to be a certain balance; Engineers are equipped with (I would say pet-like) abilities to help them counter the Squigs. The easiest way to balance against a pet class’ abilities is by having another pet, and the dark elves have a very clear candidate for such.

Beastmasters didn’t become less likely because of the high elves having a pet class (because there is nothing, that I’m aware of, indicating that they’ll only have one other pet class), the became more likely. Of course it’s also possible that the high elf Mage (for example) is the pet class and that the dark elf Sorceress gets some magical abilities which, while not quite pets, still work somewhat similar to counter the high elf pets.

The reason I even wrote that was because you were adding counter-arguments to your own points. I did not say it was bullet proof, just that it is a potential counter-argument.
Fair enough. And I’ve got too caught up in countering the counter argument. :p I’ll edit the first post to reflect it too.

This was not me, I believe Zoatibix said this.
Ah, sorry. Got my quotes cross-wired. Edited.

Secondly, I know you are joking here, but people got over Slayer's not making it in.
Perhaps. But Slayers didn’t get nearly as many tidbits that they’d be in that I’m aware. ;)


Xurré, how do you find time to do anything in life apart from writing about Witch Elves? I think I'll actually feel sorry for you if Mythic announces Corsairs as the DPS class. :p
Fixed. :mrgreen:

I think Xurre should live by my philosophy, don't expect anyone to do anything, so when they do not do it you will not be dissipointed XD
I follow the philosophy of “expect people to do things for you, and when they don’t stab them repeatedly so that they won’t be able to disappoint you again”. ;)

No, not really. I hope, but I don’t really expect anything. Of course that would still leave me disappointed, but life is full of those.


- Xurré

[Kellaris]

I'd like to see DE's with female only casters and witch elves, then marauders and green skins as male only, everything else open.


I would agree if there would be 6 other DE classes.
But 2 female restricted classes means I will have only 2 to choose from. That would be sad. Very sad.

Why You are so much feministic??
You can play female sorceress if You wish, but why I cannot play male??
Why You want to prohibit me from playing DPS?
Problem with chaos is, that they really don't have too mach options. They have to include Chaos Warrior/chosen.
There are a lot of options for DE DPS. Why to choose most restrictive.
Becouse of half naked chics?? Please...this game is supposed to be about WAR.
And only point where Witches are beating Corsairs or Executioners is fact that they make excellent look for game conventions.

The easiest way to balance against a pet class’ abilities is by having another pet, and the dark elves have a very clear candidate for such.

Beastmasters didn’t become less likely because of the high elves having a pet class (because there is nothing, that I’m aware of, indicating that they’ll only have one other pet class), the became more likely. Of course it’s also possible that the high elf Mage (for example) is the pet class and that the dark elf Sorceress gets some magical abilities which, while not quite pets, still work somewhat similar to counter the high elf pets.
- Xurré

Easiest way do not mean the best one. And I strongly disaggre that Beastmaster is good for pet class. He is Beastmaster, not a Petmaster.
In my opinion giving him a pet (like harpy or small cold one would break idea of beastmasters. And it would be exact Squigherder mirror (Pet, spear, ranged weapon).
I have to say, that my faith that Mythic will be smart enough to realize that Witches are not good for DE is fading last days.
But still, I do have faith, that they will design something original for Dark Elves. And original means No Squig herder mirroring and No choppa mirroring.

Also, I do not have lint to that interview, but i belive it was:
Q: Will there be any other pet class??
A: Yes, for High Elves
In my opinion "Yes, for High Elves" means "for High Elves" and not "For High Elves and Dark Elves"



Perhaps. But Slayers didn’t get nearly as many tidbits that they’d be in that I’m aware. ;)
- Xurré

This is mostly becouse Dwarf classes were revealed shortly after the movie.
Also, at his time there wer no so much specific question to Mythic, no Podcast etc.

[Morag]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heno
The flaw in logic being that I somehow doubt a half naked elf chick who fights with duel wielding swords would be anything other than MASSIVELY popular.

First, I personally do not like the idea of class popular becouse of it is half naked.

Second. This popularity will be balanced by people who don't like playing chicks. (Yes, that players exists)

Thrid this kind of carrer will make DE dominated by females, wich is wrong. Druchii are not girlsband.

Just to add to Kellaris - This is also what I refer to as the "night elf hunter" phenomenon. Sure, that type of character will draw people to it, you only have to log on WoW, spit, and you'll hit one. In fact, Night Elf hunters get spat on a lot. It also causes a lot of players to come to "hate" that type of character. Many go out of their way and get a lot of satisfaction from killing them. My guild hasn't decided 100% on which side we're going to play when WAR is out. The other day I found myself thinking "well, if we go Order and Witch Elves are in at least I'll get to kill them".

Also, an overabundance of one particular archetype is not really a good thing. Sure, they might be the most popular Dark Elf career, but that doesn't mean it's going to make faction imbalances any better. You will just have a ton of Witch Elves running around in comparison to the other Dark Elf careers. Personally, I think that is a horrible thing to have, especially for instanced scenarios. Class composition is as important as skill and gear when the sides are even.

True, but that wasn’t quite meant to be the argument as such. More, people have been assuming that there’ll only be one other pet class while it’s just as likely that there’ll be two.

I pretty much agree with Kellaris again. From what Mythic said I feel it is more likely that there is just one more pet class. Of course, Dark Elves could get one as well, but I honestly doubt it at this point.

There does need to be a certain balance; Engineers are equipped with (I would say pet-like) abilities to help them counter the Squigs. The easiest way to balance against a pet class’ abilities is by having another pet, and the dark elves have a very clear candidate for such.

Beastmasters didn’t become less likely because of the high elves having a pet class (because there is nothing, that I’m aware of, indicating that they’ll only have one other pet class), the became more likely. Of course it’s also possible that the high elf Mage (for example) is the pet class and that the dark elf Sorceress gets some magical abilities which, while not quite pets, still work somewhat similar to counter the high elf pets.

The balance is that pet classes are (hopefully) balanced around their pets as well as every army gets their own ranged class. I don't see how the Engineer's abilities specifically helps them counter squigs, could you elaborate please? Also, if Mythic always takes the easy way out I am not sure that they will be able to get a monthly fee out of me for very long.

I disagree with you that Beastmasters are more likely now, I feel that Mythic would have said something about Dark Elves when they answered the pet question. We'll find out soon enough at any rate.

Perhaps. But Slayers didn’t get nearly as many tidbits that they’d be in that I’m aware. ;)

Didn't they come out and say they planned to put Slayers in then changed their minds because they just couldn't get it to work in a mmo because of their lore? I may be wrong, but that's how I remember it. I think the main problem here is that they just waited too long to announce the elf stuff. Peoples expectations have been built pretty high at this point and no matter what they announce now there are going to be people upset that their favorite unit didn't make it. I went in to this with the plan of hoping for the best and expecting the worst. I won't be that broken up if things don't go how I'd want them, but I know there are some people who will be no matter what happens.

[Xurré]

I don't see how the Engineer's abilities specifically helps them counter squigs, could you elaborate please?
What allows them to counter Squigs more effectively is that they can attack from multiple places at once (just as any pet class can). But down a turret (or whatever) over here and have that attack the Squig while you’re over there attacking the Herder. And even if you’re in the same place you can target multiple targets at once. You kinda have the same ability as a pet class in that.

I disagree with you that Beastmasters are more likely now, I feel that Mythic would have said something about Dark Elves when they answered the pet question. We'll find out soon enough at any rate.
Considering that the question was specifically about Order pet classes I don’t see why they would say anything about dark elves. They’re reluctant enough about the elves as it is.

Didn't they come out and say they planned to put Slayers in then changed their minds because they just couldn't get it to work in a mmo because of their lore? I may be wrong, but that's how I remember it.
Yes, but that’s besides the point since I was talking about people getting over it. :p

Anyway, once could argue that this would mean that they at least at one point had plans to include the Witch Elf as well... and considering that there’s nothing in their lore that would make them problematic I don’t see why they couldn’t be in.

I think the main problem here is that they just waited too long to announce the elf stuff. Peoples expectations have been built pretty high at this point and no matter what they announce now there are going to be people upset that their favorite unit didn't make it.
I agree with that.


- Xurré

[Tiervexx]

I would agree if there would be 6 other DE classes.
But 2 female restricted classes means I will have only 2 to choose from. That would be sad. Very sad.

Why You are so much feministic??
You can play female sorceress if You wish, but why I cannot play male??
Why You want to prohibit me from playing DPS?

I could be mistaken but I believe Malekith is the only male DE spell caster.

[Morag]

What allows them to counter Squigs more effectively is that they can attack from multiple places at once (just as any pet class can). But down a turret (or whatever) over here and have that attack the Squig while you’re over there attacking the Herder. And even if you’re in the same place you can target multiple targets at once. You kinda have the same ability as a pet class in that.

That's certainly a valid tactic when fighting a Squig Herder, but why not just focus fire on the Herder instead of spreading your damage out over two targets? Do we even know if Engineers have control over what their turrets fire at? I just don't see how turrets make a pet class, or even a pet-like class. Zealots and Runepriests can drop rituals/runes with similar effects as a turret, yet you don't call them pet classes. If being able to attack multiple targets at once makes a pet class, then I guess Bright Wizards and the Magus are also pet classes due to their ae spells. I'm not trying to give you a hard time, it just seems like too much of a stretch to me.

Considering that the question was specifically about Order pet classes I don’t see why they would say anything about dark elves. They’re reluctant enough about the elves as it is.

That is a good point. I looked up the question and you are right.

Yes, but that’s besides the point since I was talking about people getting over it. :p

Anyway, once could argue that this would mean that they at least at one point had plans to include the Witch Elf as well... and considering that there’s nothing in their lore that would make them problematic I don’t see why they couldn’t be in.

Yeah, but there is a lot more than just lore to consider when you are designing a game. Sure, Witch Elves work better than Slayers from a lore standpoint. However, there are other things to consider (some of which we have debated about the past few days) when selecting and designing suitable careers.

[Kellaris]

I could be mistaken but I believe Malekith is the only male DE spell caster.

You are mistaken ideed.
DE Armybook p16:
"Sorcerers are regarded with disdain, fear and superstition by most Dark Elves, and they cannot be admitted to Convent. There are those in Naggaroth however, who will employ such magic users to avoid owing a debdt to the High Sorceresses of the Convent."

[Xurré]

Yeah, but there is a lot more than just lore to consider when you are designing a game. Sure, Witch Elves work better than Slayers from a lore standpoint. However, there are other things to consider (some of which we have debated about the past few days) when selecting and designing suitable careers.
In fact, I've been discussing it since the beginning of the year and I feel I've shown, on multiple levels, why they'd make (one of) the best choice(s) for inclusion in the game.

The only people have been pointing out as a precedent is "Slayers aren't included" and I've shown that the reasons for Slayers being excluded doesn't go for Witch Elves, and as such the precedent itself is not a reason to exclude them.


- Xurré

[Kellaris]

In fact, I've been discussing it since the beginning of the year and I feel I've shown, on multiple levels, why they'd make (one of) the best choice(s) for inclusion in the game.

The only people have been pointing out as a precedent is "Slayers aren't included" and I've shown that the reasons for Slayers being excluded doesn't go for Witch Elves, and as such the precedent itself is not a reason to exclude them.
- Xurré

Lets be fair.
You (and not only You) have shown many arguments for WE.
But there have been also lot of arguments against WE. Not only Slayer stuff.

[Zoatibix]

And none of the serious arguements against WE have stood up.

[Kellaris]

And none of the serious arguements against WE have stood up.

Well. In my opinion they are standing quite good.
Very personal.
I do not really belive that theese arguments (for and against) has convinced anyone. ;)

In fact, I remember the longest post that Xurre has written (for WE of course)
And this post has convinced me that Corsair is most possible DPS class (I have never before supported Corsair)

Most of arguments are really personal opinions. We do not have any facts that support any side. And when it comes to logic, it is always against WE ;)

[Selendor]

And none of the serious arguements against WE have stood up.

And there 'is' no serious argument against non-Witch Elves. ;)

[Heno]

Well we seem to be arguing that the most Iconic classes make it in.

And Corsairs vs WE is the focus of this argument.

Now to me, that's not even a nargument, it's a total wash with victory for the Brides of Khaine, but hey, what do I know? :D

[Selendor]

Marauders? Hammerers? Choppas? Squig Herders? Zealots? Witch Hunters? Knights of the Blazing Sun?

These aren't examples of units that immediately leap to mind when talking about their respective armies. I believe Mythic's number one priority is making 24 distinct classes that are fun to play. The argument of what's iconic is something based solely on opinion. The most iconic Dark Elf units in my mind would be Cold One Knights and Assassins, but by Mythic's own statements it sounds like neither will be included. I think they have their own ideas for the Dark Elf classes.

[Zoatibix]

And when it comes to logic, it is always against WE ;)

And you can give me these logical reasons against Witch Elves, can you? I'm pretty certain most of the ones I've seen raised were countered.

During said arguments I've seen people swayed to the Brides of Khaine, as well as to the Corsairs.

[Heno]

Marauders? Hammerers? Choppas? Squig Herders? Zealots? Witch Hunters? Knights of the Blazing Sun?

These aren't examples of units that immediately leap to mind when talking about their respective armies. I believe Mythic's number one priority is making 24 distinct classes that are fun to play. The argument of what's iconic is something based solely on opinion. The most iconic Dark Elf units in my mind would be Cold One Knights and Assassins, but by Mythic's own statements it sounds like neither will be included. I think they have their own ideas for the Dark Elf classes.

Marauders are in because Chaos has precious few human shaped followers. Spawns, Deamons and such weren't going to be playable, let's be honest. What's the other options? There is none! (Although to be honest they are actually a mix of Marauder and CHaos Spawn)

Hammerers? They're the Elite Kings guard, they're one of the most devout and dutiful dwarves they are. If you played Dwarves the only thing more memorable is Slayers and Thunderers, and well Engineers are a mix of one, and the other as we know had problems fitting due to it's "One death is good enough for me" outlook on life.

Choppas? It's an orky orc. Fit's pretty well as he represents the orcs love to fight an' fight an' fight an fight' an.....

Squig Herders? Have you ever PLAYED a Goblin army? You never forget these little buggers when they rip up the battlefield, they're goblin mayhem in a nutshell >:(

Zealots? As said, Chaos has very few choices, so few in fact, they had to make one up.

Witch Hunters? You serious? They're the fear of the Empire from the outside, but welded to a weapon. O.o

Knights? The only one a bit confusing, but also the only real choice for a tank Empire side. Well unless the had an actual Steam Tank, but they might be considered a bit "Oh dear god! They're the nobility, the guys on the top of the pile in a feudal system. :D


Every class so far represents a part of that races culture, and what better represents the huge influnce of religion on the Dark Elves than the blood crazed priestesses themselves.

[Morag]

In fact, I've been discussing it since the beginning of the year and I feel I've shown, on multiple levels, why they'd make (one of) the best choice(s) for inclusion in the game.

The only people have been pointing out as a precedent is "Slayers aren't included" and I've shown that the reasons for Slayers being excluded doesn't go for Witch Elves, and as such the precedent itself is not a reason to exclude them.

No doubt they are one of the better choices. The thing is there are only a couple units that really fit in the melee dps slot and make sense. Witch Elves, Assassins, Corsairs and Executioners are the ones that come to mind. The reason people talk about Slayers is because they were in the intro video and aren't going to be in the initial release as a playable class. It would be dumb to think that the reasons Slayers were cut has anything to do with Witch Elves. Slayers are out because they wear no armor and because they are trying to get themselves killed. I'm under no illusions that Slayers are related to Witch Elves in that way.

And none of the serious arguements against WE have stood up.

I may have missed some of these threads, but people have made compelling arguments both ways. I know you are biased in favor of Witch Elves, so your statement has to be taken with a grain of salt. If you want to repost some of your opinions on why they should be in I'm sure you would find a couple people here willing to give their opinion on why they shouldn't be in. Keep in mind that all we have are opinions, and as such they can't be wrong.

Well we seem to be arguing that the most Iconic classes make it in.

And Corsairs vs WE is the focus of this argument.

Now to me, that's not even a nargument, it's a total wash with victory for the Brides of Khaine, but hey, what do I know? :D

What Selendor said.

And you can give me these logical reasons against Witch Elves, can you? I'm pretty certain most of the ones I've seen raised were countered.

During said arguments I've seen people swayed to the Brides of Khaine, as well as to the Corsairs.

Yes, I can give you logical reasons against Witch Elves. Just as I'm sure you could give me logical reasons in favor of Witch Elves. Like I said, it's all opinion and no one can be wrong. If you want to debate some of the points please post your thoughts and we can go back and forth.

Marauders are in because Chaos has precious few human shaped followers. Spawns, Deamons and such weren't going to be playable, let's be honest. What's the other options? There is none! (Although to be honest they are actually a mix of Marauder and CHaos Spawn)

Hammerers? They're the Elite Kings guard, they're one of the most devout and dutiful dwarves they are. If you played Dwarves the only thing more memorable is Slayers and Thunderers, and well Engineers are a mix of one, and the other as we know had problems fitting due to it's "One death is good enough for me" outlook on life.

Choppas? It's an orky orc. Fit's pretty well as he represents the orcs love to fight an' fight an' fight an fight' an.....

Squig Herders? Have you ever PLAYED a Goblin army? You never forget these little buggers when they rip up the battlefield, they're goblin mayhem in a nutshell >:(

Zealots? As said, Chaos has very few choices, so few in fact, they had to make one up.

Witch Hunters? You serious? They're the fear of the Empire from the outside, but welded to a weapon. O.o

Knights? The only one a bit confusing, but also the only real choice for a tank Empire side. Well unless the had an actual Steam Tank, but they might be considered a bit "Oh dear god! They're the nobility, the guys on the top of the pile in a feudal system. :D


Every class so far represents a part of that races culture, and what better represents the huge influnce of religion on the Dark Elves than the blood crazed priestesses themselves.

Mythic has had to make allowances and use some creative license to fill areas that were lacking in certain armies. However, when there have been available units that could be considered more iconic they aren't always the ones picked. Let's use the Empire Knights for example. I am sure you could tell me a more iconic order than the Blazing Sun. Why were these guys picked? I think it was said they allowed the player much more freedom in how they played. These specific Knights have a much much looser moral code than most of the other orders and they also allow women to join.

If Mythic was always going to go with the most iconic unit in a given army regardless of how it could restrict the players then why did they pick these guys? Anyways, just one example. If you look over the other careers you would see that there are other examples like that if you keep yourself open and unbiased. And, with that said there are also iconic units in. If anyone is remotely familiar with Warhammer I think they would recognize the Warrior Priest.

[Xurré]

I'm glad people are having such a good time being so completely off-topic. :p

I've done an extensive post comparing all the classes which, I think, explains in great detail why (I feel that) Witch Elves make by far the best choice for the melee dps role. And I think I've been more than generous to the other classes (and have tried very hard to hold back my enthusiasm on Witches). Any discussion of class comparisons would, I think, be much better suited there (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14911).

Now, as for the tidbits... anyone disagree with these tidbits? Anyone thing they're strong or weak hints for Witches? Anyone have any other tidbits or perhaps tidbits which seem to discount those here?

Let's try to get this back on topic a little. :)


- Xurré

[The Masked Prince]

I think there are hints for Witches,
but I doubt they are the best choice as DPS mele,
Absolutely nothing prooves they are.

[Morag]

I think there are hints for Witches,
but I doubt they are the best choice as DPS mele,
Absolutely nothing prooves they are.

Yeah, but nothing proves that the other units are any better. This is where personal opinion comes in.

[Heno]

If Mythic was always going to go with the most iconic unit in a given army regardless of how it could restrict the players then why did they pick these guys? Anyways, just one example. If you look over the other careers you would see that there are other examples like that if you keep yourself open and unbiased. And, with that said there are also iconic units in. If anyone is remotely familiar with Warhammer I think they would recognize the Warrior Priest.

They're both Knights. They both represent the same thing (Well unless thier one of the wierd religious orders, but niether are!), one has less ties to the military though, and they wanted our characters to be fairly automanous.

I never said they're picking the most iconic regardless of how restrictive they'd be. But as we've discussed at serious "Dear god that's too much" length, the only real dampner Witch Elves have is the Gender thing, and they've already shown that's not a problem.


As for the tidbits, well they're all vague, but of course they are anyhting solid isn't going to get released :(

[Kellaris]

I'm glad people are having such a good time being so completely off-topic. :p

I've done an extensive post comparing all the classes which, I think, explains in great detail why (I feel that) Witch Elves make by far the best choice for the melee dps role. And I think I've been more than generous to the other classes (and have tried very hard to hold back my enthusiasm on Witches). Any discussion of class comparisons would, I think, be much better suited there (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14911).
- Xurré
Yes!. This is exactly the post that convinced me that Corsairs are the best choice.;)



Now, as for the tidbits... anyone disagree with these tidbits? Anyone thing they're strong or weak hints for Witches? Anyone have any other tidbits or perhaps tidbits which seem to discount those here?

Let's try to get this back on topic a little. :)
- Xurré

There are no tidbids to discount theese one. But there are also tidbids for corsairs.
The most notable is "Corsairs, one of ours.....never maind" - podcast.
And one of recent interviews with swaschbuckling as DE character.

And you can give me these logical reasons against Witch Elves, can you? I'm pretty certain most of the ones I've seen raised were countered.


Every reason or argument can be countered. Existence of counter, does not proove that said argument is not logical.

[Morag]

I never said they're picking the most iconic regardless of how restrictive they'd be. But as we've discussed at serious "Dear god that's too much" length, the only real dampner Witch Elves have is the Gender thing, and they've already shown that's not a problem.

You may have not said it, but it's a common argument used by people in favor of Witch Elves. Someone else could have quoted me and I prefer to leave as few holes in my arguments as possible. I feel that the gender restriction is just one of the downsides of Witch Elves, not the only "real" one. I expect we'll be debating this fairly heavily until Leipzig though, it's not a good sign if you already feel we've reached the "too much" stage!

[Kellaris]

I never said they're picking the most iconic regardless of how restrictive they'd be. But as we've discussed at serious "Dear god that's too much" length, the only real dampner Witch Elves have is the Gender thing, and they've already shown that's not a problem.

If gender restriction is the only problem You see with Witches, that means You didn't follow theese discussions.

[Xurré]

[QUOTE=Kellaris;426904]There are no tidbids to discount theese one. But there are also tidbids for corsairs.
The most notable is "Corsairs, one of ours.....never maind" - podcast.
And one of recent interviews with swaschbuckling as DE character.[QUOTE]
Actually, that’s the only tidbit for Corsairs that I’m aware of. And I did consider adding it as a sort-of counter tidbit.

But I think that it’s even weaker as the one where Paul seems to be saying “dark elf Witches” behind his hand, as people are filling in the blanks in both cases (but one is clearly talking about dark elf player careers, making it stronger). Some people think he was about to say that they’re one of the classes... but I strongly feel that people are forgetting that not everyone is (and I would, in fact, say most people aren’t) familiar with the Warhammer games and the lore. So most people wouldn’t have any clue what a “Corsair” is and how that’s a reference to dark elves. It seems, to me, far more likely that Paul might’ve been on the verge of explaining to these people what it is, but then thinking better of it because it’s immaterial to the topic at hand (explaining quests).

And, of course, I also think that there’s a fair dose of deliberation gone into that purely to spawn these kinds of discussions. In fact I would almost go as far as to say that he did it deliberately to counter all the Witch Elf hits they’ve been dropping, thinking perhaps that it might’ve been too obvious that they’d include them as a class and needed to sow some doubt.


On a side-note. I’d agree with Heno’s “too much” argument in so far that we’re not really discussing anything new. There’s just, it seems to me, some new people dropping in at the tail-end of the discussions bringing the same tired old arguments up again as if they’re fresh and new. And forcing us to repeat the same tired old counters again in the vague hope that they’ll come with something fresh. The above is a clear example of that, since the entire thing has been discussed to death a dozen times over already.


- Xurré

[Morag]

But I think that it’s even weaker as the one where Paul seems to be saying “dark elf Witches” behind his hand, as people are filling in the blanks in both cases (but one is clearly talking about dark elf player careers, making it stronger). Some people think he was about to say that they’re one of the classes... but I strongly feel that people are forgetting that not everyone is (and I would, in fact, say most people aren’t) familiar with the Warhammer games and the lore. So most people wouldn’t have any clue what a “Corsair” is and how that’s a reference to dark elves. It seems, to me, far more likely that Paul might’ve been on the verge of explaining to these people what it is, but then thinking better of it because it’s immaterial to the topic at hand (explaining quests).

I agree with you, we all know Paul just goes off when he gets talking. His comment about Corsairs holds as much weight as all the other comments Mythic has made. They seem to have a very sharp marketing department as well. I can't imagine all these supposed hints getting past them if they had any actual value.

And, of course, I also think that there’s a fair dose of deliberation gone into that purely to spawn these kinds of discussions. In fact I would almost go as far as to say that he did it deliberately to counter all the Witch Elf hits they’ve been dropping, thinking perhaps that it might’ve been too obvious that they’d include them as a class and needed to sow some doubt.

This is starting to head to tinfoil hat country. I can't see Mythic sitting around saying "how can we confuse everyone today? I know, lets throw out a seemingly harmless comment about X unit and watch the feeding frenzy begin". I think the comments they have made are simply comments. People see what they want to see, truth is we won't know what the classes are until they tell us.

[zoa]

Everyone has their opinion, and the majority are not going to change their opinion for anything. Every single thread about Dark Elf classes has been a circle of biased opinion. This thread was very informative, lots of hard work put into it, but it just fell into the same arguments as every other thread, and then everyone continues to go in a circle. This has all be discussed before, and the worst part is, it was all discussed before by all of you. You were right to say get back on topic, but really the people talking in this thread have already stated their opinion, now it's just a circle.

[Morag]

Everyone has their opinion, and the majority are not going to change their opinion for anything. Every single thread about Dark Elf classes has been a circle of biased opinion. This thread was very informative, lots of hard work put into it, but it just fell into the same arguments as every other thread, and then everyone continues to go in a circle. This has all be discussed before, and the worst part is, it was all discussed before by all of you. You were right to say get back on topic, but really the people talking in this thread have already stated their opinion, now it's just a circle.

Yep, arguing on the internet is fairly pointless. Most of the people who post in this forum are already pretty die hard in their opinions already. Thankfully, the majority of the regular posters here are pretty mature and make solid arguments for their opinions and I have fun debating with them.

Honestly, I just started posting here to kill time before the announcement in Leipzig. I expect the career debate will wage back and forth for another week or two, then when the classes come out there will be a little gloating from the people who guessed right. Then we'll start discussing the individual classes more in depth. Ultimately, all of this is pointless, yet we do it anyways.

[Heno]

I just post for fun, I realise it'll be a cold day in hell before (Cheap shot incoming) people too inscure with thier sexuality can get thier minds round playing something with breasts. But I like to rant about Dark Elves, they do have my loyalty from the Table after all, and that counts for a lot!

[Morag]

I just post for fun, I realise it'll be a cold day in hell before (Cheap shot incoming) people too inscure with thier sexuality can get thier minds round playing something with breasts. But I like to rant about Dark Elves, they do have my loyalty from the Table after all, and that counts for a lot!

I know you are just joking (I hope), but I couldn't resist! According to you there must be a lot of women insecure with their sexuality because they can't get their minds around playing a male Chosen or Marauder.

[Thoden Firehammer]

*Watches a chair fly over his head*

Ahh, it's times like this i'm glad my favorite race is Dwarf.
However Mythic's decision may only truly effect the Dark Elves, it may also effect the other races in this game... to what effect? I have no idea. In anycase live and let live...or the correct term is die and let die, in anycase it's all good. XD

[Zoatibix]

Every reason or argument can be countered. Existence of counter, does not proove that said argument is not logical.

No, but your premises have been shown to be wrong.

If you and Morag would like to skim this thread we can talk about Witch Elves vs Corsairs rather than wasting more space in this one.

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14352

@ Thoden: Well, at least you didn't have to duck :p

[Slaunyeh]

Well we seem to be arguing that the most Iconic classes make it in.

And Corsairs vs WE is the focus of this argument.

Now to me, that's not even a nargument, it's a total wash with victory for the Brides of Khaine, but hey, what do I know? :D

Enh. Just have both. Dark Elves can just hire an orc or a chaos guy if they need someone to take a beating for them. ;)

[Kellaris]

No, but your premises have been shown to be wrong.

Not exactly. It have been shown that some people have different opinion about it.
Also, that some people have much more free time than me and They can post enormous amount of text. And unfortunately I don't have enough time to counter all of them:(


If you and Morag would like to skim this thread we can talk about Witch Elves vs Corsairs rather than wasting more space in this one.
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14352

Aren't we talking here about WE as potential Playable Class??
I really do not think we can discuss something new in next 2 weeks and we have to got used to warming old discussions.

[Heno]

I know you are just joking (I hope), but I couldn't resist! According to you there must be a lot of women insecure with their sexuality because they can't get their minds around playing a male Chosen or Marauder.

Yep! I'm an equal oppurtunity name caller!

[zoa]

I just post for fun, I realise it'll be a cold day in hell before (Cheap shot incoming) people too inscure with thier sexuality can get thier minds round playing something with breasts. But I like to rant about Dark Elves, they do have my loyalty from the Table after all, and that counts for a lot!

Hey, I enjoy playing with breasts just as much as the next guy! ;) lol sorry, but yea, who knows I might give it a shot if Witch Elves are indeed the class. I am one of the people who would prefer to see another class because of not wanting to play a female main, however you are looking at it wrong, I don't use it as an argument against having them as a class, I just would prefer to have something else. I have fully acknowledged plenty of the information given by Witch Elf enthusiasts and believe them to be one of, if not the top choice for melee DPS.

[Morag]

Yep! I'm an equal oppurtunity name caller!

Well damn! That proves Witch Elves are in!

[Xurré]

Aren't we talking here about WE as potential Playable Class??
Some people are... but the intention of the thread was to discuss the ‘hints’ that have been dropped and whether there are any other such hints (for or against). This thread was more meant as an attempt to sift through the official comments and see if we can glean the truth from that two weeks in advance.


- Xurré

[Kellaris]

Some people are... but the intention of the thread was to discuss the ‘hints’ that have been dropped and whether there are any other such hints (for or against). This thread was more meant as an attempt to sift through the official comments and see if we can glean the truth from that two weeks in advance.
- Xurré

I'll try to be better next time ;)

So, this is about the movie.
Don't You think that Witch in the trailer is mach too weak?
She fights wit mage for some time and she cannot hit him even once (not counting the kick). She should sloughter him in few seconds. Slayer vs BO fight looks fair (hard hitter vs hard defender - this must take time). Chosen (fighter class) beats Priest (supporter)
So if this video i supposed to mean something, there ar 2 options only:
1. She is a mob
2. She is a support class.
:rolleyes:

[Selendor]

I'll try to be better next time ;)

So, this is about the movie.
Don't You think that Witch in the trailer is mach too weak?
She fights wit mage for some time and she cannot hit him even once (not counting the kick). She should sloughter him in few seconds. Slayer vs BO fight looks fair (hard hitter vs hard defender - this must take time). Chosen (fighter class) beats Priest (supporter)
So if this video i supposed to mean something, there ar 2 options only:
1. She is a mob
2. She is a support class.
:rolleyes:

As a long-time healer, I resent your implication that support classes can't beat pure fighters. That warrior priest is just gonna heal that big old gash in his skull when he gets back up. :-P