Daemonic Possession (may contain spoilers for Fulgrim and Malus books)

[Calelith]

So after reading the first 3 Malus books, and the Fulgrim novels something came to me.

Daemons need the hosts permition to assert control and help (if you get what i mean).

Examples:

Fulgrim: He had to tell the daemon he wanted to go away from it all and gave up and to take him away, basically giving the daemon permission to take control, but this seems weird as its supposed to be a pretty strong daemon that possessed him (but maybe because hes a primarch and that was why)

Malus: After the daemon gained entrance to his body, it can't help him in any way unless he asks it too, basically giving it permission to assert power and control and the only thing it seems todo on its own is keep him barely alive when he should die (but that could be just having a daemon inside that keeps him going). Which again seems weird as the daemon seems to be pretty strong in its own right.

The guy from Storm of Iron: He basically induces the daemon into action and has control over it which again seems weird

And i have read that its easier to grant a daemon a host body if the subject is willing, where as its pretty hard if they are not.

Basically i want to know why? can it be that a humans/DElf's will is greater than that of a daemon in our world?

[Harlequin70]

Simple answer: Free Will

Long answer: its more complicated and varies depending on the author and edtion. Some you have to give yourself freely to the Powers, others you can be tricked, manipulated, pushed, goaded etc and others the Powers are so strong you can't resist.

Daemons have limited abilties outisde of the Warp as this is what feeds thenand what they are made of. (Daemons are the Warp made manifest) So their power is massively deminished in the Real World. They can excerte influence over things but depending on what and who they are and are dealing with their power can very meaning they need a willing subject, Pawn, Vessel, Host which through the power of the Warp can be held (only temporary) in in that power the Daemon can exist.

[Calelith]

Simple answer: Free Will

Long answer: its more complicated and varies depending on the author and edtion. Some you have to give yourself freely to the Powers, others you can be tricked, manipulated, psuhed, goaded etc and others the Powers are so strong you can't resist.

Makes sense, at first i was wondering why the daemon didn't just take control of Malus and do the work himself with his uber powers, but then i realised he couldn't and as much as Malus relies on him, he relies on Malus.

[Harlequin70]

Without Malus, his Daemon would have nowhere to Live so to speak and would have to return to the Warp or to its cinfinement.

[Calelith]

Without Malus, his Daemon would have nowhere to Live so to speak and would have to return to the Warp or to its cinfinement.

Yea, i wish malus would talk to the Daemon more though, and i can't wait to get the next 3 books :D

[Tatile]

Yea, i wish malus would talk to the Daemon more though, and i can't wait to get the next 3 books :D

There's only so much talking you can do when you need to do it outloud. Malus is already in a tough spot (cute little thing that his is), being seen as slightly insane or in league with the Ruinous Powers would make matters worse.

Besides, most of conversations end up with Tz'arkan using pet names and Malus getting pissed off and violent.

"Who's a cutie? You are! You are!" *ruffles Malus' hair*

[Calelith]

There's only so much talking you can do when you need to do it outloud. Malus is already in a tough spot (cute little thing that his is), being seen as slightly insane or in league with the Ruinous Powers would make matters worse.

Besides, most of conversations end up with Tz'arkan using pet names and Malus getting pissed off and violent.

"Who's a cutie? You are! You are!" *ruffles Malus' hair*

lol thats another point, im sure Tz'arkan says he can read malus' mind, but yet malus has to talk out loud to communicate.

[Tatile]

lol thats another point, im sure Tz'arkan says he can read malus' mind, but yet malus has to talk out loud to communicate.

I think he did say that, quite early on. Maybe Dan and Mike forgot or Malus has amazing mental blocks.

Though it does seem that Tz'arkan occasionally gets wind of what his little Druchii host's thinking. This is often followed by something along the lines of:
'That's a somewhat bad idea... are you sure you know what you're doing?'
'Yes Daemon.'
The plan goes horribly wrong.
'May need more violence.'
'You are terribly good at that.'
'...Are you... flirting with me?'

Ok, maybe not quite, but you get the idea.

[Calelith]

I think he did say that, quite early on. Maybe Dan and Mike forgot or Malus has amazing mental blocks.

Though it does seem that Tz'arkan occasionally gets wind of what his little Druchii host's thinking. This is often followed by something along the lines of:
'That's a somewhat bad idea... are you sure you know what you're doing?'
'Yes Daemon.'
The plan goes horribly wrong.
'May need more violence.'
'You are terribly good at that.'
'...Are you... flirting with me?'

Ok, maybe not quite, but you get the idea.

Yea lol, but the daemon does say he can read his mind and such but yet malus has to talk out loud to comunicate.

Also don't you think Tz'arkan sounds more of a Tzeentchian daemon than a slaaneshi one?

[Tatile]

Also don't you think Tz'arkan sounds more of a Tzeentchian daemon than a slaaneshi one?

Name wise, a little. Personailty wise though, I'm surprised he didn't try to get Malus laid (would have dealt with some of his stress issues). To be honest, while Tzeentch and his ilk are natural schemers and Tz'arkan did do a fair amount of scheming and string-pulling, he came off as being terribly sadistic, moreso than I think a Tzeentchian Daemon would be (they'd possibly treat mortals like playthings, whereas Tz'arkan had Malus as his 'favourite', which I feel made 'his'* actions more peverse).

Think about it, if you're going to live for several hundred thousands years, wouldn't play the 'long game' when it comes to fun? Tz'arkan's plot would probably have been viewed as 'simplistic' and 'foolhardy' by Tzeentchian Daemons. Just look at how Lord of Ruin ends (no, I'm not going to spoil it, but: Curse Abnett and Lee! Curse them to Curseland!).

*a true Daemon of wondrous Slaanesh is beyond the confines of such petty things as gender :P

[Calelith]

Name wise, a little. Personailty wise though, I'm surprised he didn't try to get Malus laid (would have dealt with some of his stress issues). To be honest, while Tzeentch and his ilk are natural schemers and Tz'arkan did do a fair amount of scheming and string-pulling, he came off as being terribly sadistic, moreso than I think a Tzeentchian Daemon would be (they'd possibly treat mortals like playthings, whereas Tz'arkan had Malus as his 'favourite', which I feel made 'his'* actions more peverse).

Think about it, if you're going to live for several hundred thousands years, wouldn't play the 'long game' when it comes to fun? Tz'arkan's plot would probably have been viewed as 'simplistic' and 'foolhardy' by Tzeentchian Daemons. Just look at how Lord of Ruin ends (no, I'm not going to spoil it, but: Curse Abnett and Lee! Curse them to Curseland!).

*a true Daemon of wondrous Slaanesh is beyond the confines of such petty things as gender :P

Im excited and scared of reading it now lol, but from the first 3 books it seems it was some 'destiny' of malus to do the things he does.

The one thing that annoyed me in the 3rd book was when his retainers tried to kill him, they had no reason to, everything they lost they only gained because of him and it seemed to be put in to give malus a reason to leave the city :rolleyes:

[Tatile]

The one thing that annoyed me in the 3rd book was when his retainers tried to kill him, they had no reason to, everything they lost they only gained because of him and it seemed to be put in to give malus a reason to leave the city :rolleyes:

No reason? No Reason! He destroyed everything they had, their honour and their coffers, in a single dumb arse move. If it hadn't been for Malus, Hauclir would still be a simple Gaurd Captain, Arleth would probably be dead (err, forget I said that), Slaanesh knows where Silar and... uh... what'shisface would be.

All they knew was that Malus had acted against the Witchking and with them being his retainers, they got the crap thrown at them as well. Guilt by assossiation and all that.

[Calelith]

No reason? No Reason! He destroyed everything they had, their honour and their coffers, in a single dumb arse move. If it hadn't been for Malus, Hauclir would still be a simple Gaurd Captain, Arleth would probably be dead (err, forget I said that), Slaanesh knows where Silar and... uh... what'shisface would be.

All they knew was that Malus had acted against the Witchking and with them being his retainers, they got the crap thrown at them as well. Guilt by assossiation and all that.

And, i used to like Silar and the Guard captain before that but now its Malus all the way.

Is it wrong that i actually like Tz'arkan?

[Tatile]

Is it wrong that i actually like Tz'arkan?

Of course not! Anytime you can get a nervous look on the author's face is great! Tz'arkan's one of those appealing Daemons, he's been trapped for an afternoon in a giant crystal and just wants to have some fun with his dollies.

[Kilani]

the malus books are great and they only get more bloody and violent as they go along :)

because of this series i am currently writing a book on the dark elf corsairs.


i think everyone loves Tz'arkan the character is great i agree he does seem to have the wrong name :)

but like i said the next lot of books are brilliant some real good twists in them too :D

[Veilside]

Daemons need the hosts permition to assert control and help (if you get what i mean).


In some cases, yes, but not all.
Daemonhosts (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Daemonhost) for example.

[Direlord]

demons don't need permission to possess a body. to take complete control they may have to wear down the reserve a bit though.

malus put on the ring which put a portion of the demon or so into him. the actual demon was trapped in the crystal and the whole bargain was to free him to regain Malus soul. So even though the demon is powerful it is still trapped and limited to what it can do. also with malus in i think the 2nd book he does visit the slaneesh cult in a pact with the Khainites and pretty much has a ton of fun.

Fulgrim is a primarch which probably puts him very high on the resistance scale.

Storm of iron not sure if you were talking about the possessed marine or something else. knowing the true name of a demon gives you control over it. in one of the Grey knight novels a powerful demon had something like an 100 letter name. Names given by demons are never their true name. In the most powerful cases only the chaos gods know the name as they are the ones that bestow it when the demon is created from them.

Possessed marines do usually willingly give up body for the chance at power but it seems more like a symbiotic relationship. they have control but can unleash the demon when they need to have power. usually at that time though the demon has near full control and usually quite mad.

most demonic weapons are weapons with a demon trapped inside. Not all are though the old CSM scythe which name i can't seem to remember was a scythe dipped into the plague pool near the throne of nurgle.

I do think to be possessed you don't have to be willing just weak a chink that can be exploited. in Eisenhorn cherbuel or whatever the demon is was forced into a body i don't remember if the guy was knocked out or dead. by old TT rules a demon can possess a dead body but it never lasts. those of weak will can probably be outright possessed straight off and the demon will usually start to change the body to more suit their desires. Of course if the desire is to be secret then they will change very little.

[Calelith]

demons don't need permission to possess a body. to take complete control they may have to wear down the reserve a bit though.

malus put on the ring which put a portion of the demon or so into him. the actual demon was trapped in the crystal and the whole bargain was to free him to regain Malus soul. So even though the demon is powerful it is still trapped and limited to what it can do. also with malus in i think the 2nd book he does visit the slaneesh cult in a pact with the Khainites and pretty much has a ton of fun.

Fulgrim is a primarch which probably puts him very high on the resistance scale.

Storm of iron not sure if you were talking about the possessed marine or something else. knowing the true name of a demon gives you control over it. in one of the Grey knight novels a powerful demon had something like an 100 letter name. Names given by demons are never their true name. In the most powerful cases only the chaos gods know the name as they are the ones that bestow it when the demon is created from them.

Possessed marines do usually willingly give up body for the chance at power but it seems more like a symbiotic relationship. they have control but can unleash the demon when they need to have power. usually at that time though the demon has near full control and usually quite mad.

most demonic weapons are weapons with a demon trapped inside. Not all are though the old CSM scythe which name i can't seem to remember was a scythe dipped into the plague pool near the throne of nurgle.

I do think to be possessed you don't have to be willing just weak a chink that can be exploited. in Eisenhorn cherbuel or whatever the demon is was forced into a body i don't remember if the guy was knocked out or dead. by old TT rules a demon can possess a dead body but it never lasts. those of weak will can probably be outright possessed straight off and the demon will usually start to change the body to more suit their desires. Of course if the desire is to be secret then they will change very little.

Yea, in Eisenhorn he puts cherbuel into that half dead guy. i think with weapons it would be different because you have to force the daemon into the weapon.

good points though :D

[Direlord]

Yea, in Eisenhorn he puts cherbuel into that half dead guy. i think with weapons it would be different because you have to force the daemon into the weapon.

good points though :D

well you can force a demon to possess something. the defiler is demonic also the hell cannons from (IIRC) the old fluff are also possessed. Demon summoning isn't that rare all you are doing is summoning probably a lesser demon type into a object and with glyphs and other things you control said demon. Demons can't exist long in the world without a great deal of magic or the warp to support them. Putting them into a person or object allows them to last much longer.

i guess that is what eisenhorn did he made cherbuel possess the guy providing the host instead of it being the demons choice. this also seems to severely weaken the demon but i guess it all depends on demon str, host will, wards, the authors plot.

[Calelith]

well you can force a demon to possess something. the defiler is demonic also the hell cannons from (IIRC) the old fluff are also possessed. Demon summoning isn't that rare all you are doing is summoning probably a lesser demon type into a object and with glyphs and other things you control said demon. Demons can't exist long in the world without a great deal of magic or the warp to support them. Putting them into a person or object allows them to last much longer.

i guess that is what eisenhorn did he made cherbuel possess the guy providing the host instead of it being the demons choice. this also seems to severely weaken the demon but i guess it all depends on demon str, host will, wards, the authors plot.

Also i think (cant remember properly) Eisenhorn might have forced to guys soul/will into submission.

[Athenys]

"Who's a cutie? You are! You are!" *ruffles Malus' hair*

It's more like:

"Say 'Hello' Malus! Who's my minion? Who's my minion? You are ^_^! *omn nom nom nom nom nom*"

[Calelith]

It's more like:

"Say 'Hello' Malus! "Who's my minion? Who's my minion? You are ^_^! *omn nom nom nom nom nom*"

lol

1234567890

[Tatile]

It's more like:

"Say 'Hello' Malus! Who's my minion? Who's my minion? You are ^_^! *omn nom nom nom nom nom*"

Reminds me of the 4th Edition D&D Gnome (which is kind of what I was going for). Problem is, I don't think Druchii are terribly cuddly, though I'm sure someone has evidence to the opposite.

I can't help but laugh at that. Aww, poor Malus the little badger.

[Gaugamela]

Reminds me of the 4th Edition D&D Gnome (which is kind of what I was going for). Problem is, I don't think Druchii are terribly cuddly, though I'm sure someone has evidence to the opposite.

I can't help but laugh at that. Aww, poor Malus the little badger.


Compared with Daemons, Druchii are small fluffy rabits.

[Calelith]

Compared with Daemons, Druchii are small fluffy rabits.

Not really, daemons aren't evil nor do they chose to be they are what they are where as DE choose to be evil and choose to inflict pain of their own free will which makes them worse :D

[Tatile]

Not really, daemons aren't evil nor do they chose to be they are what they are where as DE choose to be evil and choose to inflict pain of their own free will which makes them worse :D

Hehe, Dan Abnett said a pretty similar thing. Funny to think that Druchii might be 'genetically' evil :P

Fluffy bunny Dark Elves? Stop giving me ideas...

Aww, Malus in bunny ears ^.^

[Calelith]

Hehe, Dan Abnett said a pretty similar thing. Funny to think that Druchii might be 'genetically' evil :P

Fluffy bunny Dark Elves? Stop giving me ideas...

Aww, Malus in bunny ears ^.^

lol that would make a great Easter styled event.

[Athenys]

Oh, DE are 'cute' alright >.>... (http://mlor.ytmnd.com/)

Reminds me of the 4th Edition D&D Gnome (which is kind of what I was going for). Problem is, I don't think Druchii are terribly cuddly, though I'm sure someone has evidence to the opposite.

If Malus actually *talked* back to T'zarkan it would sound like he suffered from Tourette's Syndrome:

http://www.divshare.com/download/5725058-6f4

Compared with Daemons, Druchii are small fluffy rabbits.

They certainly fornicate like said rodents :rolleyes:...

Fluffy bunny Dark Elves? Stop giving me ideas...

My best friend always writes "Pink Mini-Maluses" at the end of every emails she sends me. A bit of an inside joke that :p!

[mcharj11]

So after reading the first 3 Malus books, and the Fulgrim novels something came to me.

Daemons need the hosts permition to assert control and help (if you get what i mean).

Examples:

Fulgrim: He had to tell the daemon he wanted to go away from it all and gave up and to take him away, basically giving the daemon permission to take control, but this seems weird as its supposed to be a pretty strong daemon that possessed him (but maybe because hes a primarch and that was why)

Malus: After the daemon gained entrance to his body, it can't help him in any way unless he asks it too, basically giving it permission to assert power and control and the only thing it seems todo on its own is keep him barely alive when he should die (but that could be just having a daemon inside that keeps him going). Which again seems weird as the daemon seems to be pretty strong in its own right.

The guy from Storm of Iron: He basically induces the daemon into action and has control over it which again seems weird

And i have read that its easier to grant a daemon a host body if the subject is willing, where as its pretty hard if they are not.

Basically i want to know why? can it be that a humans/DElf's will is greater than that of a daemon in our world?


*********SPOILER*********


The more malus uses the Daemons power, the more control the Daemon has over Malus. In the last book there is a point in where the Daemon can take full control of Malus's body without his permission, the only counter to this is the Warpsword of Khaine.

[Calelith]

*********SPOILER*********


The more malus uses the Daemons power, the more control the Daemon has over Malus. In the last book there is a point in where the Daemon can take full control of Malus's body without his permission, the only counter to this is the Warpsword of Khaine.

Cool, i'm going to get the last 3 soon. :D

[Tatile]

*********SPOILER*********


The more malus uses the Daemons power, the more control the Daemon has over Malus. In the last book there is a point in where the Daemon can take full control of Malus's body without his permission, the only counter to this is the Warpsword of Khaine.

That's hilarious, it really is.

D:
I want the Boys back now. Stupid Malus and his stupid hair-brained violent schemes!

[Direlord]

That's hilarious, it really is.

D:
I want the Boys back now. Stupid Malus and his stupid hair-brained violent schemes!

i'm sure there is one in the works we haven't seen the end of malus yet. it will be interesting with the next book since what happened at the end of the last one.

[Tatile]

i'm sure there is one in the works we haven't seen the end of malus yet. it will be interesting with the next book since what happened at the end of the last one.

Oh I'm not all that interested in Malus, to be honest. Well, not as much as Silar, Hauclir and Arleth (yes, I know, library...).

I miss Arleth :(

Watching Malus trying to make his through Naggarond again will be fun though. He's so cute when he's scheming.

[mcharj11]

Oh there will definitly be more Darkblade books. The bad news is though that Mike Lee has said he has so much work on his hands at the moment that it will probabaly be 2010 before we get to read it.

I liked Arleth and the rest but Malus is my favourite character, he just gets more and more awesome, he even becomes Malekiths Champion.

[Tatile]

Oh there will definitly be more Darkblade books. The bad news is though that Mike Lee has said he has so much work on his hands at the moment that it will probabaly be 2010 before we get to read it.


Bah! I should have talked to him more at Games Day. Stupid pretty models distracting me from wierding out writers!

Well, there are more books than Darkblade out there, just not many on the Druchii (that I've seen).

[Xeroxed]

I think throughout the entire series of Malus Darkblade, Hauclir has to be my favorite character. The many moments i've had quitely laughing to myself at his comments are many and I want more :(.

[Direlord]

Oh there will definitly be more Darkblade books. The bad news is though that Mike Lee has said he has so much work on his hands at the moment that it will probabaly be 2010 before we get to read it.



i wonder if he is working solo on the nagash series of the time of legends. I didn't really like the pacing of the first one especially compared to heldenhammer which is close if not my favorite black library book.

other than malus i don't remember if he writes any other warhammer series. i assume he does other projects outside of warhammer.

[mcharj11]

i wonder if he is working solo on the nagash series of the time of legends. I didn't really like the pacing of the first one especially compared to heldenhammer which is close if not my favorite black library book.

other than malus i don't remember if he writes any other warhammer series. i assume he does other projects outside of warhammer.

So Heldenhammer is good, it's been sitting on my shelf of a few days, sounds like i should get stuck into it.

[Direlord]

So Heldenhammer is good, it's been sitting on my shelf of a few days, sounds like i should get stuck into it.

IMO Heldenhammer is one of my favorite books. I have read it about 2 or 3 times now which is a pretty good sign for me. I'm actually rereading the entire space wolf series then i have the new Ciaphus Cain novel to read. Hopefully when all that is done the next horus heresy Mechanicum which is out i think the 28 of nov will be ready. Then i have malekith coming out dec or jan.

Nagash i didn't like the spacing in how things were presented with the chapters i also felt it skipped way to much a lot more could have been added i felt.

[Bilious]

Do the novels verge a long way from the graphic novels then? I read the first and was bored because it was really just the first issue extended out. Bit confused by the Slaanesh references, since in the comic the first thing Tz'Arkan says is that he's a demon of Tzeentch.

Still annoyed that Banner Of Blood was never released. I've got Born, World, and Throne, and at the end of Throne it mentions Banner. Doesn't exist. Anyone know if it's in the omnibus compilation of the graphic novels? Not keen on the format though, due to the shrunken art.

[Calelith]

Do the novels verge a long way from the graphic novels then? I read the first and was bored because it was really just the first issue extended out. Bit confused by the Slaanesh references, since in the comic the first thing Tz'Arkan says is that he's a demon of Tzeentch.

Still annoyed that Banner Of Blood was never released. I've got Born, World, and Throne, and at the end of Throne it mentions Banner. Doesn't exist. Anyone know if it's in the omnibus compilation of the graphic novels? Not keen on the format though, due to the shrunken art.

I thought he was a Tzeentchian daemon, hell his name is Tzeentchian.

[Tatile]

Do the novels verge a long way from the graphic novels then? I read the first and was bored because it was really just the first issue extended out. Bit confused by the Slaanesh references, since in the comic the first thing Tz'Arkan says is that he's a demon of Tzeentch.

Still annoyed that Banner Of Blood was never released. I've got Born, World, and Throne, and at the end of Throne it mentions Banner. Doesn't exist. Anyone know if it's in the omnibus compilation of the graphic novels? Not keen on the format though, due to the shrunken art.

I've looked around for the Graphic Novel (generally, not a collection or anything) and it's damned bloody hard to find. I've seen it at Amazon for roughly, oh IIRC, about £30?

Thankfully thouhg, I have the Hellbrant Grimm book here....

'Darkblade: Reign of Blood' - The complete tale of the most cunning, ruthless abd evil dark elf ever to draw breath. ISBN 1-84416-206-0

...if that's helpful, good :D If not, I just wasted like five minutes...:eek:

[Bilious]

I've looked around for the Graphic Novel (generally, not a collection or anything) and it's damned bloody hard to find. I've seen it at Amazon for roughly, oh IIRC, about £30?

Thankfully thouhg, I have the Hellbrant Grimm book here....

'Darkblade: Reign of Blood' - The complete tale of the most cunning, ruthless abd evil dark elf ever to draw breath. ISBN 1-84416-206-0

...if that's helpful, good :D If not, I just wasted like five minutes...:eek:

On the Black Library page it mentions releasing Darkblade 1-3 (which I have) Daemonifuge 1 + 2, (I have #2) and Bloodquest 1-3 (I have #2) It also mentions Reign of Blood and a Daemonifuge compilation, which i understand have the last issues in them to complete their respective stories but are also novel sized. So: tiny pictures. :( This is not the medium full sized comics are designed for, otherwise they'd have been printed at that size originally. There's also the insult that I've already got the majority of what's in those books.

Seems my best course will be to track down the relevant issues of Warhammer Monthly! Oh what a joy that'll be on my wallet and time.

[mcharj11]

Do the novels verge a long way from the graphic novels then? I read the first and was bored because it was really just the first issue extended out. Bit confused by the Slaanesh references, since in the comic the first thing Tz'Arkan says is that he's a demon of Tzeentch.

Still annoyed that Banner Of Blood was never released. I've got Born, World, and Throne, and at the end of Throne it mentions Banner. Doesn't exist. Anyone know if it's in the omnibus compilation of the graphic novels? Not keen on the format though, due to the shrunken art.

They have changed him to a Daemon of SLaanesh in the novels. When Malus fights Tz'arkan, he is described by the authour and he doesn't look anything like what you would expect of a Daemon of Tzeentch.

[Tatile]

Aww, sorry I couldn't be more help Bilious.

(Perhaps Tz'arkan was changed to Slaanesh because it fits slightly better with the underground/secret Cults in Naggaroth?)

[Bilious]

Thanks for looking though, it's appreciated.

[mcharj11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malus_Darkblade

Look under the items section and under Warpsword. It says there that Tz'arkan is a Daemon of Slaanesh, the information on the Warpsword itself is interesting too.