Lack of Mobility = doomed??

[Trennet]

I fear that Engineers will lack the mobility required to complement their skills and weaknesses. WAR is still so far from launch. But these are some concerns with the current state of the Engineer career. This is my favorite career in terms of abilities + handicaps requiring a lot of finesse. But the lack of mobility looks to be an insumountable disadvantage.

It seems like Engineers were designed to be the mobile, survivable ranged career -- lower ranged damage, but a pain in the arse for meleers to get thier hands on. The cost of such mobility is lower damage, a deadzone on primary weapon (gun), and 35% lesser range with secondary weapon (grenades). But from what I have seen, Engineer's long cast times neuter their mobility, and they can't well sit their firing their gun at point blank like BW and Magus can do. For example, grenades look to be about a brutally long 2-2.5s cast (can anyone confirm this?).

What I would love to see:
I would love to see grenades and bombs/mines (and "Leg Shot" possibly) all have their cast times drastically reduced and have reasonably short cooldowns. If Engineer damage needs to be reduced to balance this, that's fine; some of the CC durations should probably be lowered too. But imho the purpose of the class should be to provide highly mobile harrassment (not immobile, greatly restricted damage). We don't need yet another "glass cannon" career, we need a finesse ranged career!

Example:
Say an Engineer is being charged by a Choppa who pops "Bezerk". The Engie combos some shots with "Leg Shot" (a snare). The Choppa uses "No Stoppin' Mo Choppin' " to remove the snare and keeps charging. The Engineer starts casting a snare or root grenade. The Choppa uses 1 of 3 interrupts and starts pounding away. The Engie uses "Get Off Me" for a 1s stun. Now if you tries to gain range or cast a grenade, he'll die. His one hope is to combo into "Friction Burn" right after "Get Off Me" and pray that it procs (33% chance) and thus stuns the Choppa for a whopping 5s. Now the Engie can move to 65ft and cast a snare grenade and start firing. Nevertheless, the odds are very good that the Choppa will still slaughter him after this since the Engie is not getting the opportunity to do comparable damage to the Choppa's intermittant deadly blows. . It's a fight that depends entirely on 1 skill proccing for even a remote chance; without that proc the Choppa will likely have 85% life left when the Engie dies.

Now the above example is based on an encounter in which a melee DPSer and Engie are starting 100ft apart. Were the melee DPSer to engage the Engie from closer -- let alone get the jump on the Engie -- then it would make sense for him to tear the Engie apart. But at max range the Engie should have a slight edge that allows him to slowly, via some kiting (not easy-cheesy perma-kiting), wear down a lot of the melee DPSer's life before that meleer starts cutting through him like butter. I'd say, that at full range in a clean fight, an Engie should be able to do a good 65-70% of a meleer DPSer's (not a tank's) life before his bag of tricks is near exhausted and the meleer is cutting him up fast. But atm it looks like Engies deal about 15% before they stand there, struggling to cast a single grenade, which getting shredded.

[Thoden Firehammer]

... You're kidding...

You made this post knowiing full well that you do not know the game mechanics nor do you know the spells of each class, you have got to be kidding me.

The game isn't even out yet for gods sake.

I would like to also take the time to remind you that this is not a pvp game, it is an RvR game, no one class can counter every class out there, the game requiers team work

[Grombir]

To be completly honest you shouldn't take most of the videos seriously. All of the players in those videos are first timers, most of them do not have any experience with the class and can't play it to it's fullest extent. My advice is just wait a little. At the least till the NDA is lifted, then we'll have some real information from players who "should" know their classes pretty well.

But for the time being you shouldn't worry.

[Trennet]

... You're kidding...

You made this post knowiing full well that you do not know the game mechanics nor do you know the spells of each class, you have got to be kidding me.

The game isn't even out yet for gods sake.

I would like to also take the time to remind you that this is not a pvp game, it is an RvR game, no one class can counter every class out there, the game requiers team work

Go back to the WoW forums kiddie.

These are for people speculating/discussing current, known info. Contribute or troll elsewhere.

And "PvP" and "RvR" are 2 different things? "RvR" is player-versus-player content with a new name. And any PvP larger than 1v1 requires teamwork; you suggest it doesn't. I certainly didn't suggest that every career (not "class" as you call them) should be able to counter every other one. I did suggest that the weaker ranged capabilities (compared to BW and Magus) do not seem to currently provide, from what we know, more strength versus melee combatants. If you wish to discuss it, then do so. Stop trolling like a WoW forum kiddie.

[Trennet]

To be completly honest you shouldn't take most of the videos seriously. All of the players in those videos are first timers, most of them do not have any experience with the class and can't play it to it's fullest extent. My advice is just wait a little. At the least till the NDA is lifted, then we'll have some real information from players who "should" know their classes pretty well.

But for the time being you shouldn't worry.

I agree. However, you can still see the cast times. And comparing with melee DPSers' abilities + how PvP functions in other games, I think Engineers' lack of mobility is going to be a problem. It bothers me b/c I think it's an incredibly interesting career. But with their natural handicaps long cast times on their "escape" or "kiting" skills seems an insurmountable flaw.

[Nezumiiro Kitsune]

That would make less sense only if I was sober. I hate abbreviations for MMO's, too many, most of there could be easily cut to make more sense... anyway back to tha' damn subject at hand I guess... well 1 hand, the others got a tankard.

Massive difference between RvR and PvP my curious friend, and sober abbreviating ally. RvR is alot more mission based, working against the other team, to gain the upper hand in a combat situation, in RvR for the first 4 zones you'll be working against the enemy in multiple scenarios. Also never are you limited to doing 1 thing, or forced to wait for a mission to be completed, or an area to be cleared before you can move on, you always have something to do, and can drop in and help at any given time. Only in the primary base of the enemy, do you wage more PvP based warfare. The winning team, having the most points in total from the first 4 scenarios will then go on to lay siege to there adversaries base. Or so I am lead to believe. Again this is the only time it will be PvP orientated. But even then its not just PvP, if your the sieging army you take down strategic points from your allies stronghold, and work your way up to kill the king, and ransack the city. Alternatively, I believe there are still missions to be accomplished, to gain the upper hand in the battle. PvP therefore pales in comparison to RvR, actually being part, and only a small part of the RvR experience. I've watched the videos and read the articles, that what I've gleaned, though if I'm wrong, I'd be happy to learn new points. As long as theres an ale in it :D.

[Vikingkingq]

Engineers are not a "mobile, survivable ranged career." I would describe them as more of a defensive, survivable ranged Career - with an emphasis on preparation. Here, the Engineer made a few critical mistakes:

1. The Engineer didn't prepare the ground.

A big part of maintaining ground for an Engineer is to make moving towards him painful. Hence, the first thing that the Engineer should have done was to lay down his turret and either a Crippling Bomb or a Land Mine. That way, when the Choppa blows his anti-snare ability on the Leg Shot, he hits the Crippling Bomb/Land Mine. That gives the Engineer time for the Shrapnel Grenade/Sticky Bomb/Oil Grenade/Leg Shot/Shatter Leg. Moreover, when he gets closer, the Choppa has to deal with the Turret adding extra damage.

2. The Engineer didn't use Sprint.

It's the skill all careers get, and the only way that the Choppa could have closed a hundred feet within the time it takes to load up a Shrapnel Grenade/Sticky Bomb/Oil Grenade or get off a Leg Shot/Shatter Leg, etc. If the Choppa's doing that, then the proper Engineer response is to leg it likewise when they've used up theirs, and re-establish defenses (Mine/Turret) in another spot.

3. The Engineer needed to use Morale Abilities.

I don't know how much Morale the Engineer had built up, but the Morale abilities are there for just that kind of "oh crap" situations. Bite the Bullet would have given the Engineer longer to fight, Caltrops would have snared/dotted the Choppa, Old Painless would have REALLY snared the Choppa, etc.

--------------------------------------

Needless to say, this seems like less of a case of a case of the Engineer career needing work as much it is a case of learning how to use all of the Engineer's abilities in combination.

[Trennet]

That would make less sense only if I was sober. I hate abbreviations for MMO's, too many, most of there could be easily cut to make more sense... anyway back to tha' damn subject at hand I guess... well 1 hand, the others got a tankard.

Massive difference between RvR and PvP my curious friend, and sober abbreviating ally. RvR is alot more mission based, working against the other team, to gain the upper hand in a combat situation, in RvR for the first 4 zones you'll be working against the enemy in multiple scenarios. Also never are you limited to doing 1 thing, or forced to wait for a mission to be completed, or an area to be cleared before you can move on, you always have something to do, and can drop in and help at any given time. Only in the primary base of the enemy, do you wage more PvP based warfare. The winning team, having the most points in total from the first 4 scenarios will then go on to lay siege to there adversaries base. Or so I am lead to believe. Again this is the only time it will be PvP orientated. But even then its not just PvP, if your the sieging army you take down strategic points from your allies stronghold, and work your way up to kill the king, and ransack the city. Alternatively, I believe there are still missions to be accomplished, to gain the upper hand in the battle. PvP therefore pales in comparison to RvR, actually being part, and only a small part of the RvR experience. I've watched the videos and read the articles, that what I've gleaned, though if I'm wrong, I'd be happy to learn new points. As long as theres an ale in it :D.

I'm sorry but from my point of view you just described WoW's Battlegrounds and thus proved that "RvR" is "PvP" by a different name. There is no differenece except for the fact that (hopefully) WAR is implementing it better.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Go back to the WoW forums kiddie.

These are for people speculating/discussing current, known info. Contribute or troll elsewhere.

And "PvP" and "RvR" are 2 different things? "RvR" is player-versus-player content with a new name. And any PvP larger than 1v1 requires teamwork; you suggest it doesn't. I certainly didn't suggest that every career (not "class" as you call them) should be able to counter every other one. I did suggest that the weaker ranged capabilities (compared to BW and Magus) do not seem to currently provide, from what we know, more strength versus melee combatants. If you wish to discuss it, then do so. Stop trolling like a WoW forum kiddie.


WoW forums? Yeah nice assumption, but it seems you're the only one thats been there, way to go on eating your own foot.

Actualy my post did have a point, but it seems you were too close minded and judgmental to actualy see it.

You're worring about class balance before the game is even out yet, I can't believe it, it's hillarious.

I was also pointing out that this game will be RvR balanced and not PvP balanced, if you don't understand what that means than it seems that you're the ones who's been spending too much time in the WoW forums :P

[Trennet]

Engineers are not a "mobile, survivable ranged career." I would describe them as more of a defensive, survivable ranged Career - with an emphasis on preparation. Here, the Engineer made a few critical mistakes:

1. The Engineer didn't prepare the ground.

A big part of maintaining ground for an Engineer is to make moving towards him painful. Hence, the first thing that the Engineer should have done was to lay down his turret and either a Crippling Bomb or a Land Mine. That way, when the Choppa blows his anti-snare ability on the Leg Shot, he hits the Crippling Bomb/Land Mine. That gives the Engineer time for the Shrapnel Grenade/Sticky Bomb/Oil Grenade/Leg Shot/Shatter Leg. Moreover, when he gets closer, the Choppa has to deal with the Turret adding extra damage.

2. The Engineer didn't use Sprint.

It's the skill all careers get, and the only way that the Choppa could have closed a hundred feet within the time it takes to load up a Shrapnel Grenade/Sticky Bomb/Oil Grenade or get off a Leg Shot/Shatter Leg, etc. If the Choppa's doing that, then the proper Engineer response is to leg it likewise when they've used up theirs, and re-establish defenses (Mine/Turret) in another spot.

3. The Engineer needed to use Morale Abilities.

I don't know how much Morale the Engineer had built up, but the Morale abilities are there for just that kind of "oh crap" situations. Bite the Bullet would have given the Engineer longer to fight, Caltrops would have snared/dotted the Choppa, Old Painless would have REALLY snared the Choppa, etc.

--------------------------------------

Needless to say, this seems like less of a case of a case of the Engineer career needing work as much it is a case of learning how to use all of the Engineer's abilities in combination.

Great discussion! Thanks!

1. The problem, imho, with bombs/mine, is their long cast time. From what I have seen, bombs/mine take a good 3s to plant. While that makes Engineers a great "guard," having the time/expected-position to lay them is very situational. While WoW's mechanics (not to mention instant-cast heavy PvP) is very different, I do think about how WoW's Hunters depend on instant-cast traps and how, were they 3s casts, they would be near useless (within WoW's unique PvP, but still in terms of mobility and endlessly shifting battles). I, personally, see bombs/mine as something a guard uses and used ahead of time on bottlenecks. Besides that, I can't see how they would be useful -- let alone complement the real strengths of the career -- in the vast majority of fights.

2. I completely respect how you express this rebuttal, but I think there are some major flaws in this point. If the Engineer is going to use his gun Abilities, then he is firing till range is lost. If suggesting planting a 2-3s bomb/mine during that time, I'd expect the average Engie (not super-skilled) to have the Choppa gain a good 40ft in that time (assuming 3-4s cast, given the reaction delay of the average player); imho this is correct if run speed is similar to WoW's (unenchanted and w/o WAR sprint). The rest of your points are intersting, but I'd counter with the possibility (after all, this is all speculation) of an Engineer opening with "Leg Shot" combo, it's removed as the Engie starts winding up snare grenade, the Choppa gets snared again, the Engie controlled-short-term sprints (an advanced usage) + lays a root bomb + fires 1 gun shot, the Choppa gets rooted and the Engie regains 100ft range -- presuming that the cooldown on the Choppa's CC-removing skill is greater than about 6s (estimate) which I presume it is. Then the Engie could gun fire, but the Choppa is going to be on him fast and the Engie has done very little damage so far. If grenade cooldown is up, then Engie can try to rinse and repeat.

But imho this is a TON of flawless kiting work for the Engie to likely run out of AP and die or slowly burn down a low-survivability Choppa over 2 minutes. Now of course this is all speculation given the little we know, but imho kiting should now be so difficult -- especially if the Engie opts for little-to-no damage and simply delaying the fight (while runs out of AP). Without such capability (of an ability-set seemily designed for it) then they look a bit like a BW/Magus with 65ft range. Thoughts?

3. Yes, the Engineer Morale abilites are nice. But the heal merely delays the inevitable tho if Choppa is on him. And the snare sounds incredibly, but sadly there isn't enough info for me to factor it in really (will it be the 1 ability that provides Engies with decent kiting?). Also, keep in mind, that if a decent Choppa gets in range then they "should" be able to nearly "stunlock" an Engie to death -- and Choppa is just the most avaible example atm.

Overall, I still fear that without faster casts (and possibly lowered damage) that Engies won't live up to their potential. But I find it interesting to debate this and please forgive me for playing devil's advocate.

[Trennet]

WoW forums? Yeah nice assumption, but it seems you're the only one thats been there, way to go on eating your own foot.

Actualy my post did have a point, but it seems you were too close minded and judgmental to actualy see it.

You're worring about class balance before the game is even out yet, I can't believe it, it's hillarious.

I was also pointing out that this game will be RvR balanced and not PvP balanced, if you don't understand what that means than it seems that you're the ones who's been spending too much time in the WoW forums :P

95% of this forum is speculation about cosmetic aspects. The good posts speculating, based on current info, on detailed mechanics are responded to by WoW-forum-rejects with "duh we dun kno yet nub!" Troll the front-page forums then, we are talking about current, known mechanics and their vaibility in a paper scenario.

And if you think that there is a difference b/w "RvR" and "PvP" then you are a scrub. RvR is PvP. It's just named differently, like "classes" vs. "careers." "PvP" = player-versus-player in ANY game. And there are many games, including WoW, that had similar PvP content as WoW will have -- just hopefully not as good or many options. If you "PvPed" without cooperating with your teamates, or focusing on the objectives vs. kills, then you are a scrub. You epitomize how WAR is going to be filled with as many scrubs as WoW and the need to stay away from those like you with elitist guilds/groups.

[Thoden Firehammer]

* Edited for Content *

[Goatrider]

Why is it that this thread features insults being slung over pre-Alpha demos and video footage? Rather like seeing an elephant skull and engaging in heated debate over what type of giant, one-eyed man it came from.

[John_Skellan]

Why is it that this thread features insults being slung over pre-Alpha demos and video footage? Rather like seeing an elephant skull and engaging in heated debate over what type of giant, one-eyed man it came from.
lol, nice analogy.

[Vikingkingq]

Great discussion! Thanks!

1. The problem, imho, with bombs/mine, is their long cast time. From what I have seen, bombs/mine take a good 3s to plant. While that makes Engineers a great "guard," having the time/expected-position to lay them is very situational. While WoW's mechanics (not to mention instant-cast heavy PvP) is very different, I do think about how WoW's Hunters depend on instant-cast traps and how, were they 3s casts, they would be near useless (within WoW's unique PvP, but still in terms of mobility and endlessly shifting battles). I, personally, see bombs/mine as something a guard uses and used ahead of time on bottlenecks. Besides that, I can't see how they would be useful -- let alone complement the real strengths of the career -- in the vast majority of fights.

It's all about preparation. A dwarf engineer is never going to fight by charging his opponents, so stake out a good spot near the fray and make it hard for your opponent to get to you. Basically, your first action upon finding a good spot is to drop the snare mine, as much to give you that extra time pumping out DPS instead of having to spend 2-3 seconds for that second snare, as it is to protect you when they come in close.

One thing that doesn't seem to be making sense: from the abilities we've seen, snares should be lasting longer. Leg Shot drops run speed by 60% for 10 seconds, Shatter Leg by 40% for 6 seconds, Sticky Bomb roots for 6 seconds, Crippling Bomb roots for 7 seconds. Are you really saying that these abilities don't give you enough time to lay in some grenades and some dps?


2. I completely respect how you express this rebuttal, but I think there are some major flaws in this point. If the Engineer is going to use his gun Abilities, then he is firing till range is lost. If suggesting planting a 2-3s bomb/mine during that time, I'd expect the average Engie (not super-skilled) to have the Choppa gain a good 40ft in that time (assuming 3-4s cast, given the reaction delay of the average player); imho this is correct if run speed is similar to WoW's (unenchanted and w/o WAR sprint). The rest of your points are intersting, but I'd counter with the possibility (after all, this is all speculation) of an Engineer opening with "Leg Shot" combo, it's removed as the Engie starts winding up snare grenade, the Choppa gets snared again, the Engie controlled-short-term sprints (an advanced usage) + lays a root bomb + fires 1 gun shot, the Choppa gets rooted and the Engie regains 100ft range -- presuming that the cooldown on the Choppa's CC-removing skill is greater than about 6s (estimate) which I presume it is. Then the Engie could gun fire, but the Choppa is going to be on him fast and the Engie has done very little damage so far. If grenade cooldown is up, then Engie can try to rinse and repeat.

But imho this is a TON of flawless kiting work for the Engie to likely run out of AP and die or slowly burn down a low-survivability Choppa over 2 minutes. Now of course this is all speculation given the little we know, but imho kiting should now be so difficult -- especially if the Engie opts for little-to-no damage and simply delaying the fight (while runs out of AP). Without such capability (of an ability-set seemily designed for it) then they look a bit like a BW/Magus with 65ft range. Thoughts?

Meh. I think you're under-estimating the time available for the Engineer to fire relative to how fast the Choppa moves, but in any case, you're talking about a Ranged DPS fight versus a Melee DPS fight. It's supposed to be tough, because you're fighting your worst enemy, the career best designed to till you. Being able to burn them down over 2 minutes if you do everything right is fair, but so is dying if you screw up.

Now keep in mind, WAR's an RvR game, not a PvP game, and that means teamwork. An Engineer should never never never be fighting a Choppa alone - he needs a Hammerer to knock the Choppa back or an Ironbreaker to debuff, snare, taunt, and block him. Not that I'm saying that the Engineer can't fight alone, but chances are that the Choppa isn't going to be alone. It's all about working your skills within a group.


3. Yes, the Engineer Morale abilites are nice. But the heal merely delays the inevitable tho if Choppa is on him. And the snare sounds incredibly, but sadly there isn't enough info for me to factor it in really (will it be the 1 ability that provides Engies with decent kiting?). Also, keep in mind, that if a decent Choppa gets in range then they "should" be able to nearly "stunlock" an Engie to death -- and Choppa is just the most avaible example atm.

Overall, I still fear that without faster casts (and possibly lowered damage) that Engies won't live up to their potential. But I find it interesting to debate this and please forgive me for playing devil's advocate.

I highly doubt that a Choppa can stunlock. They don't seem to have enough stun abilities.
And I imagine Mythic would change that if that is the case, since they've said they don't want stunlocks.

[Verratensie]

Why is it that this thread features insults being slung over pre-Alpha demos and video footage? Rather like seeing an elephant skull and engaging in heated debate over what type of giant, one-eyed man it came from.


I like you.

[Dreltadd]

Should we expect ranged dps classes to be able to take down fighter classes without a mediocre amount of skill/time playing the class?



(If I messed up somewhere, excuse my nubness please...)

[Feigro]

judging by the description, basically the best we have (http://http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Dwarfs/Careers/DwarfEngineer.php) going for it;

Fighting the Engineer
Perhaps the best way to deal with an Engineer is to fight him from afar. If you can effectively out damage him at long range he will be at a serious disadvantage. If you must get in close, be prepared to kill him quickly. Unlike most other ranged attackers, the Engineer loses little in terms of effectiveness in close quarters. He is certainly more vulnerable than a career designed to engage in melee, but this vulnerability does not make him easy meat.


Lack of mobility (If it exists, which I believe is only your assumption) shouldn't be a problem because as it suggests in the description, the Engineer is fully capable of being an "up-close" ranged career.

The Engineer isn't a rifle. He's a Shotgun.

[snork]

just a thought, but reading the OP's statements makes me wonder....


does anyone else see a problem with useing the words " highly mobile " to describe ANYTHING a dwarf should be able to pull off?

their legs are all of like... 12 inches long, the classic dwarf archtype is made famous by its impenatrible armor and shields, and in fact, dwarf armies are well known for their shield walls....

NOTHING in ANY setting i've ever seen which contained dwarves suggested mobility as a tool used by them

in fact, the idea of static land mines, turrents, bombs etc etc make me think that while you MAY get to a dwarf engi, your gonna get there below 1/2 hps and he'll easily finish you off with his spanner... provided he dosent step behind an ironbreakers shield and let him hold ya at bay while he lobs in gernades to finish ya off...


you seem to have missed the whole concept of the engi bro....


think of them less as a run and gun class, and more of a battle fortress that can be the rally point of the more mele based troops...