Archmage Healing/Damage

[dynamo112]

So with the Archmage being the support/healing career we can assume it will have it's own unique style. Whether it's building WAAAGHH!! by doing heavy damage to heal, being a straight out healbot/buffer like the Runepriest, or being a melee combantant and healing in the fray of battle like the Warriorpriest.

Which do you want to see/think will turn out? Healbot? Heavy Damage? Battle Healer? Something else? So far all we know is they have some sort of energy drainning style to keep their allies up and in the battle.

Thoughts?

UPDATE: Class profile.

“While Lesser races must study magic in its corrupted broken form, our Mages harness its power as pure mystical energy. Our minor spells, those Lores taught to the humans by might Teclis, are but a pale reflection of the power that can be wielded by an Asur fully trained in the magical arts of the White Tower.”
- Loremaster Haydrel, Archmage of the White Tower


South and east of Avelorn, on the shores of the Sea of Dreams, lies Saphery, the land of Wizardry. The heart of Saphery is the Tower of Hoeth, the shrine of the God of Wisdom. This is the greatest repository of magical knowledge in the world, compiled over the centuries by High Elf mages and scholars, many of whom still dedicate their lives to the accumulation of magical lore. The most powerful of these scholars are known as Archmages, and are capable of manipulating all the winds of magic weaving powerful sorceries known only as High Magic.

Archmage Specialty

The Loremasters of Hoeth are capable of manipulating the winds of magic with a grace and subtlety that only comes with centuries of study. An Archmage does not waste the power he draws upon; instead they efficiently weave the winds of magic into destructive spells conserving a small amount of arcane energy with each spell they cast. The Archmage can then draw upon this reserve of power to weave the most difficult spells of High Magic capable of leaving even the most terribly wounded warrior hale and hardy with nary a scar to show for it.

Playing as a Archmage

An Archmage is a powerful caster both offensively and defensively. However they must strive to keep a balance between the powers they manipulate. Weaving only powerful healing or destructive spells will leave the Archmage tired and unable to assist his allies in their darkest hour. However by carefully applying force in critical places the Archmage can reserve a wellspring of magical energy that allows him to aid his allies when a normal mage would be all but spent.

Fighting the Archmage

As with all magic users, the Archmage is not a capable close combatant. You’re best tactic one-on-one is to quickly close the distance and drop him with powerful close combat attacks. In a group situation, an Archmage is best countered by forcing him to use his powerful healing on wounded allies early on. Unable to build up a magical reserve from casting lesser destructive magics, the Archmage will find himself exhausted and his allies will be easily overcome with a strong final assault.

The Look of the Archmage

Ornate embroidered robes with high collars and large billowing sleeves
Graceful circlets and ornate headdresses engraved with powerful runes of protection.
Wields elegantly crafted staves and wands encrusted in gems and arcane Elven runes

[U4godlike]

i think hell be kinda like what happens if a zealot and a shaman had a baby =] they suck power from a enemy then use it to nuke or heal hopefully both act as synergies for each other like a shaman i think that would kinda neat specially if there way more unique when more info is released

[Crazy ol' dude]

By doing damage/using some sort of AP draining ability they heal their groupmates, i suppose ;p They'll have "normal" heals, but they can aswell do dps/cc and automatically heal while doing it (people who played wow -> similar to shadow priest mechanic), thats how i hope it will be at least ;)
Seems like this career's mechanics and play style will be interesting...sigh, i'll be stuck between zealot and archmage if what i wrote is true :/

[Arcadox]

Ah the archmage, the only lord choice class in the game thus far. Very exciting.The only solid information we have is the drain magic gimmick.Now, my hope is a distict mix of abilities with these general categories:

Drains

An essential part of the aresonal, these abilities drain AP, health, and/or morale from oppenents in return for "magic essence". They are not particularly powerful in the damage sense.

Nukes

The more "magic essence" the archmage has, the faster and more powerful his nukes become. Nukers are the good DD and DoT spells the Archmage has at his disposal.

Heals

The more "magic essence" the archmage has, the faster and more powerful his heals become. These are his essential healing abilities that support his allies.

[Insight]

Hopefully it'll work like this, for example:
- Cast Wind Strike
- Damage your foe and generate Energy from your attack
- Fill your Energy up
- Do some imba healing

Very much like the Shaman, but since Order doesn't have such a Healer/Nuker yet, I can't see why this wouldn't be the set-up.

[Nayin]

I was hoping that the Archmage would be a bit more focused on DPS but it seems now that they will be stuck with medium DPS and heals to boot. Ohh well.

[Chouchou]

I was thinking the dark elf sorcerer would be the healer with draining habilities and I was really interested in such gameplay. But instead, it's the High Elf Archmage :cool:
I'm so happy since I've always wanted to play an elf.

Need more details !!!

[dynamo112]

i think hell be kinda like what happens if a zealot and a shaman had a baby =] they suck power from a enemy then use it to nuke or heal hopefully both act as synergies for each other like a shaman i think that would kinda neat specially if there way more unique when more info is released

Yeah that would be very interesting. Could work something like...you'll have a special magic bar that can hold a maximum amount of power, you could use this drainning style to fill up this bar and make your abilities EXTREMELY powerful whether it's heals or damage.

Of coarse a max limit would be necessary for that power...1 shotting everything = bad. :skull:

[Crazy ol' dude]

Yeah that would be very interesting. Could work something like...you'll have a special magic bar that can hold a maximum amount of power, you could use this drainning style to fill up this bar and make your abilities EXTREMELY powerful whether it's heals or damage.

Of coarse a max limit would be necessary for that power...1 shotting everything = bad. :skull:
This system (except of powering up nukes) is kind of the old shaman's waaagh...it made him a bit overpowered i think so they decided to change it ;p
I imagine however...Mythic made similarities in gameplay between 6 races' careers, so:
Zealot - Runepriest (buffing/debuffing heavily)
WP - DE healer (melee healers)
Shaman - Archmage (nukes/drains -> costless(or maybe better?) healing)

imo - you drain hp/ap/whatever and you have to do something with what you have drianed, aye? So maybe a bar will appear as you drain, and when it fills up - you deliver the energy you have gathered to all allies healing them greatly (free group heal)
or as you're draining, small portions of healing/ap will be given to your allies per some amount of hp you drained (i mean: you drain 100 - let's say groupmates are healed for 30hp each).
That imo makes sense - you go to battle, heal here, heal there, drain drain drain drain ap and by doing so heal your allies a bit - then when you have drained enough aps you can return to pure healing around...this is just a bit changed current waaagh system in disguise ;p

[Pangscar]

Well if you look at the thus far released support classes, Archmages are most similiar to shaman in the Nuker/Healer role. Meaning you have have to dish out spell damage to make your heals better. Would like to see a ability list for archmage to confirm or deny this.

[Aerion]

Well we know that all classes have 4 bars:

Health
Action
Morale
(Special Class Bar/Combo Points/etc.)

It appears to me that the way a Goblin Shaman works it to damage your opponents' health to build your Waagh (4th bar). This Waagh is then spent to heal fast or well, or whatever.

I'd imagine that the Archmage has a similar setup. However, instead of damaging health, he/she might damage the opponents' Action bar (Mana Burn). This would provide the Archmage with the magic power (4th bar) needed to power his/her heals.

[Wyrmtongue]

So with the Archmage being the support/healing career we can assume it will have it's own unique style. Whether it's building WAAAGHH!! by doing heavy damage to heal, being a straight out healbot/buffer like the Runepriest, or being a melee combantant and healing in the fray of battle like the Warriorpriest.

I may know next to nothing, but i do know he won't be building WAAAGH! :)

[unthwe]

I'd imagine that the Archmage has a similar setup. However, instead of damaging health, he/she might damage the opponents' Action bar (Mana Burn). This would provide the Archmage with the magic power (4th bar) needed to power his/her heals.
Thats how it works. He will be the perfect anticaster/healer. You can do dmg, but it doesnt give you any bonus on your healing.

[Gemini]

Paul talked about actually stealing spells, taking their spells and "putting them in your head". Makes me wonder if we'll see Arcane Thievery type skills like the Mesmer from Guild Wars.

[Aaronthethird]

In my opinion, the Archmage looks like it could definitely be an awesome class in that it might have some of the most versitile skills. If the developers can find a way to make it so the class can use spells from all the different winds of magic without making them over powered I could see them being the ultimate utility class. A little bit of everything; healing, damage, debuffs, buffs, CC, anticaster stuff, AP drain.

I am sure they will fall short of my ridiculous desires... but if they come close it will definitely be my main.

[dynamo112]

I may know next to nothing, but i do know he won't be building WAAAGH! :)

Well yeah of coarse. :p

Paul talked about actually stealing spells, taking their spells and "putting them in your head". Makes me wonder if we'll see Arcane Thievery type skills like the Mesmer from Guild Wars.

Yeah that would be very interesting, I loved Mesmers.

[Dustandpolos]

I doubt they'll drain action points; I'm not sure how that would feed magic, and even the basic attacks require AP; a couple of Archmages shouldn't be able to stop a player performing any actions at all. I think it'll be either morale or, more likely, the special bar. The reason is the special bar is almost always a magical or psychological effect - hatred, frenzy, grudge, Waagh!, Faith, Confession (being the Witch Hunters conviction in the target's guilt). As stated in the High Elf intro. all these emotions strengthen Chaos and thus the Winds of Magic, making them all a source for the Archmage to gain more magic potency, and in game terms limits the enemy's use of special abilities while not completely incapacitating a character.

[Jonas]

I doubt they'll drain action points; I'm not sure how that would feed magic, and even the basic attacks require AP; a couple of Archmages shouldn't be able to stop a player performing any actions at all. I think it'll be either morale or, more likely, the special bar. The reason is the special bar is almost always a magical or psychological effect - hatred, frenzy, grudge, Waagh!, Faith, Confession (being the Witch Hunters conviction in the target's guilt). As stated in the High Elf intro. all these emotions strengthen Chaos and thus the Winds of Magic, making them all a source for the Archmage to gain more magic potency, and in game terms limits the enemy's use of special abilities while not completely incapacitating a character.

The problem with that is how does it interact with a mechanic like the Choppa's where their gimmick is based around a cooldown 'beserk' mode.

[Vikingkingq]

I doubt they'll drain action points; I'm not sure how that would feed magic, and even the basic attacks require AP; a couple of Archmages shouldn't be able to stop a player performing any actions at all. I think it'll be either morale or, more likely, the special bar. The reason is the special bar is almost always a magical or psychological effect - hatred, frenzy, grudge, Waagh!, Faith, Confession (being the Witch Hunters conviction in the target's guilt). As stated in the High Elf intro. all these emotions strengthen Chaos and thus the Winds of Magic, making them all a source for the Archmage to gain more magic potency, and in game terms limits the enemy's use of special abilities while not completely incapacitating a character.

I think this video is very helpful: http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/10625
- Archmages cast spells that cast spells that damage your opponent, then drain Magic/Life (not health) to help your friends.
- Archmages can nuke and heal without tapping first, it's just that they can do stuff even better when they do tap.
- Archmages have some of the best utility magic. Can do lots of stuff, where other casters do one thing.

Here's the problem with it not being AP: morale would make the Archmage incapable of attacking someone at the outset of combat who hadn't built up morale yet, and not every career has a special bar - Black Orks don't, Runepriests don't, Engineers don't, Sguig Herders don't, Marauders don't (that we know of), Zealots don't, etc.

[dynamo112]

I think this video is very helpful: http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/10625
- Archmages cast spells that cast spells that damage your opponent, then drain Magic/Life (not health) to help your friends.
- Archmages can nuke and heal without tapping first, it's just that they can do stuff even better when they do tap.
- Archmages have some of the best utility magic. Can do lots of stuff, where other casters do one thing.

Here's the problem with it not being AP: morale would make the Archmage incapable of attacking someone at the outset of combat who hadn't built up morale yet, and not every career has a special bar - Black Orks don't, Runepriests don't, Engineers don't, Sguig Herders don't, Marauders don't (that we know of), Zealots don't, etc.

Hmmm do you mean they will have a 'tap' ability that damages enemies while..hmm...powering yourself to make your abilities better? Sorry for the reference but the way I understand that is it's similar to Vampiric Embrace (you know what game..). Well..I dunno maybe it doesnt deal damage but perhaps it cripples the enemy..similar to a debuff, or possibly a type of shutdown? :confused:

[Jonas]

Hmmm do you mean they will have a 'tap' ability that damages enemies while..hmm...powering yourself to make your abilities better? Sorry for the reference but the way I understand that is it's similar to Vampiric Embrace (you know what game..). Well..I dunno maybe it doesnt deal damage but perhaps it cripples the enemy..similar to a debuff, or possibly a type of shutdown? :confused:

No. To put it in familar terms: They cast mana burn/drain on the target. As well as draining the target of "magic" the Achmage now can cast his spells better because he has more of his resource.

There's debate about what the Achmage will actually burn/drain. Some people think that it should be AP. Other people think health. Other people think Morale or other special meters (Hatred, Righteous Fury etc).

Personally, I think AP is the most effective in achieving the iconic role of the Archmage (caster shutdown) whilst meaning that their 'drain' ability is always functional. Further, it distinguishes itself from the Shaman which has a damage -> healing enabler mechanic.

I think Vikingkingq is suggesting a more unique mechanic where the Magic drain is required to power Healing AND Damage spells, similar to the Warrior Priest's Righteous Fury mechanic in a way. This seems thematically consistent with the Archage way of things, further emphasising it's role as a high magic 'counter caster'.

[Vikingkingq]

No. To put it in familar terms: They cast mana burn/drain on the target. As well as draining the target of "magic" the Achmage now can cast his spells better because he has more of his resource.

There's debate about what the Achmage will actually burn/drain. Some people think that it should be AP. Other people think health. Other people think Morale or other special meters (Hatred, Righteous Fury etc).

Personally, I think AP is the most effective in achieving the iconic role of the Archmage (caster shutdown) whilst meaning that their 'drain' ability is always functional. Further, it distinguishes itself from the Shaman which has a damage -> healing enabler mechanic.

I think Vikingkingq is suggesting a more unique mechanic where the Magic drain is required to power Healing AND Damage spells, similar to the Warrior Priest's Righteous Fury mechanic in a way. This seems thematically consistent with the Archage way of things, further emphasising it's role as a high magic 'counter caster'.

Jeff actually said they're not draining Health in the tenton video.

And I'm saying, not that it's required, but like the Shaman, it makes their Heals and DPS spells more powerful. But still a very good counter-class.

[dynamo112]

Jeff actually said they're not draining Health in the tenton video.

And I'm saying, not that it's required, but like the Shaman, it makes their Heals and DPS spells more powerful. But still a very good counter-class.

Yeah that does make sense, seeing how archmages are masters of all winds of magic id expect to see a large array of different kind of 'tap' abilities for example:

Crippling Siphon: A tap ability that slows the enemy target by 30% for 10 sec and slightly increases the run speed of your party members.

Morale Sap: Drains 25% morale from enemy target and trasferring it to the archmage. 35 sec. CD 120 AP.

Blinding Burden: A tap ability that reduces target enemies chance to hit by 15% for 12 sec.

These are just some examples for some insight in what we may expect. Sounds cool I think, they are after all masters of all winds of magic. (which im going to assume isnt elemental..fire, wind, water earth. I know next to nothing about warhammer lore. :p)

[wellsy]

Yeah that does make sense, seeing how archmages are masters of all winds of magic id expect to see a large array of different kind of 'tap' abilities for example:

Crippling Siphon: A tap ability that slows the enemy target by 30% for 10 sec and slightly increases the run speed of your party members.

Morale Sap: Drains 25% morale from enemy target and trasferring it to the archmage. 35 sec. CD 120 AP.

Blinding Burden: A tap ability that reduces target enemies chance to hit by 15% for 12 sec.

These are just some examples for some insight in what we may expect. Sounds cool I think, they are after all masters of all winds of magic. (which im going to assume isnt elemental..fire, wind, water earth. I know next to nothing about warhammer lore. :p)

There are Eight Winds of Magic overall. They are Fire, Metal, Heavens, Life, Death (not Necromancy, I must point out), Light, Beasts and Shadows.

High Magic is a combination of all of these.

Its as simple as that, really.

[Yavvy]

In my opinion, the Archmage looks like it could definitely be an awesome class in that it might have some of the most versitile skills. If the developers can find a way to make it so the class can use spells from all the different winds of magic without making them over powered I could see them being the ultimate utility class. A little bit of everything; healing, damage, debuffs, buffs, CC, anticaster stuff, AP drain.

I am sure they will fall short of my ridiculous desires... but if they come close it will definitely be my main.Eight winds + High... should be easy to have at least 1 spell from each.

The only thing we know about the draining is that its NOT health. AP, morale, special, buffs, maybe even casting time (Magus starts casting a spell - AM steals it) are all possible.

[Aaronthethird]

I would guess their "magic drain" may function similarly to the righteous fury aspect of Warrior Priests; certain WP abilities gain them righteous fury, and it is not a seperate aspect of battle, its just part of abilities you will use anyway. Except, unlike the WP gaining all their Righteous Fury from damage abilities, my guess is that archmages will "drain magic" from anti-magic/anti-ability skills. Things like counterspells, AP drains, Moral drains, abilities that add more casting time to an opponents spell, etc, etc. Things like that, making them focus on being disruptive and utilitarian instead of just a pure damage dealer/healer. It could make them really challenging and fun to play.

[Gaazruk]

Vid made a sick Archmage wallpaper..
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l231/Vidikin/Archmage_Wallpaper.jpg

[Revolutionomni]

Options + Range = Best survival/supporter. I don't care to top off all the damage meters, just long as I can do as many useful things as possible and survive doing it. Archmage fits that well. :D

[Vikingkingq]

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/warhammer-online/815892p1.html:

"The Archmage is an actual ranged damage dealer, a "nuker," the closest to an old-fashioned stand-and-shoot character class the game has. In lore, the Archmages are those High Elves who have spent centuries mastering every facet of magic, turning them into the most powerful spell casters in the world. In addition to tremendous amounts of damage, the Archmage can drain magic and redistribute that stolen mana as health. Enemies with no mana pool will find their action points drained instead."

-So, can steal Mana-type stuff like Waagh, etc. But also can drain AP. Unless the author is confused, which there is a good chance of considering no one has mana.

[Saintofnowhere316]

Hopefully it'll work like this, for example:
- Cast Wind Strike
- Damage your foe and generate Energy from your attack
- Fill your Energy up
- Do some imba healing

Very much like the Shaman, but since Order doesn't have such a Healer/Nuker yet, I can't see why this wouldn't be the set-up.
What the heck does IMBA mean?

[VeriusCarth]

What the heck does IMBA mean?

It stands for imbalanced.

[Revolutionomni]

Mythic so far has proven that they want things to play different from others and that said, the best ideas I've seen has been interrupt abilities/spells that get their "magic" to cast strong support and healing spells. We have to keep PvE in mind too and how the Archmage will function in solo and against normal wandering monsters: how they "tap" common monsters to get their stronger spells.

One other thing I've been thinking about is their "spell books/options." I'm sure they're going to have a lot of spells and before you go out, your going to need to pick your spells you plan on using for that time. So, I'm sure the Archmage can be a varying caster depending on if their soloing, PvPing, grouping. Thus, while they can't use all their different spells at the same time, they can change them as they need before going into battle. Just a guess on how spells might work out for them. :D

[Andarte]

Well I think that the "drain" abilities could be harmfull spells like DoTs or DDs. But they also could be debuffs etc(I hope there will be both). But some of them have to be damage spells for sure because solo PvE would be too trouble some if you need to wait like 5 sec(just a gues) before you can cast one dmg spell that you can acces only by draining magic first.

[Revolutionomni]

Ideally, the Archmage will in short time have a wide span of spells and fairly capable ones too. But they'll be more about being clever and calculating; like most casters/healers/squishes.

I believe they'll have a few different "taps" for the different "archetypes", preventing or hindering their strengths (not overpowering-wise either). The effects will be instant with short cool-downs or have short effects, thus encouraging you to use it again, keeping their opponents ever interrupted/hindered and the Archmage ever gaining "magic" for more potent/powerful spells. Just have to choose your spells and their timing wisely; as with most casters. :D

I look forward to more info on them, including in game pictures! :mrgreen:

[Kalyptein]

Could have some mechanic like
"Gather Winds of Magic" Increases AP cost of all abilities and decreases moral gain to enemies within 25 feet by 50%. The extra cost is diverted to your Mojo Bar (or whatever its called)
"Steal Essence" Siphons x AP per second to you for as long as your target remains within 20 feet of you.

[Eldaran]

Well reading all the little tidbits of info people have pulled from all over the net is making me really excited. I know this class will be amazing no matter what at this point. I've always played some sort of healing class, but like doing damage as well. I always felt that in WoW the priest felt strange and unbalanced. Sure you were supposed to be able to do some damage and heal at the same time, but I imagine the Archmage being much more versatile. Someone made a reference to Guild Wars having some sort of "Mesmer" skills to backup the magic abilities. I infact played a Monk/Mesmer in Guild Wars. I love being able to heal while having other useful spells and abilities at my disposal. I dont need to the be strongest, the greatest damage dealer, or anything else as long as I can be useful to myself and everyone else in my group. Im almost positive that Mythic will deliver a class in the Archmage that will exceed most of my expectations.

[Aycrith]

Maybe I haven't done enough reading, but I was interested to find out what kind of defenses Archmages are supposed to have. I've always played support, and anyone knows whether it be in wow/daoc or other MMO's healers are important targets and must have formidable defenses. Archmages seem to be along the same lines of shamans, caster/healers accept less DoT/DD oriented and DD/Burn. But my question is will they not be considered a main healer? Or do Zelots/Runepriests take that role? It would be very unfortunate to have archmages end up a squishy like magus/bright wizard. I think it would be fun to play a class that can be anti-caster/main support. I'm just wondering how it'll turn out!

[Loekii]

I am just speculating, but giving the information on how tanking will work in PvP (tanking causes 50% reduction in damage to defended targets....), I think the defense will come more in the form of other players.

Ultimately, I think that a strong group will be the best defense, and it will greatly mitigate the old school tactics of killing the healer/squishy target first.

[Eldaran]

That would be cool. Healers will always be meddlesome when you are trying to defeat an enemy, but taking the heat off of the squishies is a good idea. I like all these innovative things i keep hearing. Like taking 50% dmg when things are being done properly is an amazing idea. I hope all the innovation still proves to be done properly at release.

[Aycrith]

I heard something along these lines before, when I was initially reading about defensive tanking in pvp. I didn't realize it would be this effective, and it sounds very much like the old DAoC ML ability. Anyway, gives me that much more incentive to keep my support class trend going into WAR.

[epicatlantis]

Well we know that all classes have 4 bars:

Health
Action
Morale
(Special Class Bar/Combo Points/etc.)

It appears to me that the way a Goblin Shaman works it to damage your opponents' health to build your Waagh (4th bar). This Waagh is then spent to heal fast or well, or whatever.

I'd imagine that the Archmage has a similar setup. However, instead of damaging health, he/she might damage the opponents' Action bar (Mana Burn). This would provide the Archmage with the magic power (4th bar) needed to power his/her heals.

I was reading this thread, and was about to post this exact thing.
After everything I've gathered this is most likely to happen in my eyes. I am also excited to play in this sort of playstyle.

I really want to play a "Main DPS" character, so I'm hoping this character can still pack a puch. I really would hate it to be really unbalanced like the Mentalist in DAoC.
The reason I chose this class is because; I hate the roleplay of fire based characters and the like. If this turns out to be a dud; this might take me away from the Order.

I would really like to see this be an awesome character, properly balanced and such.

[Yvo]

I was reading this thread, and was about to post this exact thing.
After everything I've gathered this is most likely to happen in my eyes. I am also excited to play in this sort of playstyle.

I really want to play a "Main DPS" character, so I'm hoping this character can still pack a puch. I really would hate it to be really unbalanced like the Mentalist in DAoC.
The reason I chose this class is because; I hate the roleplay of fire based characters and the like. If this turns out to be a dud; this might take me away from the Order.

I would really like to see this be an awesome character, properly balanced and such.

If you want to play a dps character, you should play one. Playing a support class and hoping no one asks you to heal is doomed to failure.

[Dastion]

Archmages will be able to dish out a beating, this is evident just by how all healers in the game are being designed. However, they will not be able to keep up with Bright Wizards. They also will likely not have any AoEs (at least not the DD kind), except for Morale abilities.

Being the best at magic means also being more varied, Archmages use all aspects of magic to fight and there are many other aspects than dealing damage. Draining AP is going to be a huge thing when it comes to battles, no one is going to like being the center of the Archmage's attentions.

Think of it like this, if an Archmage and a Magus meet and they both go all out damage to try to just outright kill eachother.. the Archmage will likely lose. However, if the Archmage plays smart and uses his drains to weaken the Magus while keeping himself healed to counter the Magus THEN what we end up with is quite the battle. The Magus trying to pump out every bit of his AP while he can before the Archmage steals and and, essentially, uses the Magus's own power to heal himself. From what we know of Archmages, it is unlikely they can use their stolen energy to deal damage, however they are likely much like the Shaman (one of the reviews compares the two careers) and therefore will be getting "free heals" the more they drain.

An interesting fight is going to be the Archmage and the Shaman.

(This is all guesswork, no concrete info has been released about the Archmage..though a magazine article did specificially mention stealing AP)

[Krouv]

Well, we finally have the Archmage career overview.
So... he has some abilities that let him store energy, which he can then unleash in the form of very strong heals... Even though I have complete trust in Mythic to make each career unique, this sound an awful lot like the WAAAGH!!! mechanic.

[OnyxBMW]

Well, we finally have the Archmage career overview.
So... he has some abilities that let him store energy, which he can then unleash in the form of very strong heals... Even though I have complete trust in Mythic to make each career unique, this sound an awful lot like the WAAAGH!!! mechanic.

Except, from the way I read the overview, it seemed there'd also be really powerful damage spells in that special reserve of mana, not just healing spells.

[Loomdun]

Except, from the way I read the overview, it seemed there'd also be really powerful damage spells in that special reserve of mana, not just healing spells.

For the simplest understanding, apparently archmages special bar is going to be the only actual mana bar in the game. And it will build up as a warrior builds up his rage and uses his rage in WoW.

Therefore, a archmage will be a double caster? he wil lhave his Action point abilities, But then, you can deplete your action if your mana bar is near full, then you can start casting really powerful only Mana spells, But, the balance is to make sure you don't use all your mana and then resume with action points.

So unlike a goblin shaman who starts off weaker and climbs in strength, a archmage instead will be set basically in his power, and instead of growing, you will be maintaining

Example, as in.... Waagh would build up your power of the heals and ect. But the archmage literally has a second Action point bar which has different and stronger abilities. But it depletes like a mana bar and regenerates like a rage bar.

Crappy example of made up spells would be like.

Wind magic: Heavens
Strikes the target with lightning, gasp, deals amazing damage.
Arcane Energy: 20

Wind Magic: Light
Heals the target for an moderate amount of health. Grants taps 5 arcane energy
Action point cost: 50

Something like that.

[OnyxBMW]

Erhm, I don't know why you quoted me for that post, since I already had assumed much of that before posting in these threads, but whatever :rolleyes:

Though I do agree with your assumptions of them being a class of balance and maintenance of power, not one of momentum or anything else.

[Dastion]

The overview never says anything about using damaging spells from the reserve. In fact, it directly implies healing spells...

"The Archmage can then draw upon this reserve of power to weave the most difficult spells of High Magic capable of leaving even the most terribly wounded warrior hale and hardy with nary a scar to show for it."

See? Nothing says anything about using that power for destruction.

And, furthermore, it says,

"However by carefully applying force in critical places the Archmage can reserve a wellspring of magical energy that allows him to aid his allies when a normal mage would be all but spent."


So, you see, it's essentially the Waagh! mechanic, except that the two will likely have different types of offensive spells.

[Ceandric]

And, furthermore, it says,

"However by carefully applying force in critical places the Archmage can reserve a wellspring of magical energy that allows him to aid his allies when a normal mage would be all but spent."


So, you see, it's essentially the Waagh! mechanic, except that the two will likely have different types of offensive spells.


There is nothing that implies that making your enemy drop faster isn't considered to be aiding your allies :)

[OnyxBMW]

There is nothing that implies that making your enemy drop faster isn't considered to be aiding your allies :)

Sometimes, the only way to aid your allies is to drop your enemies faster :mrgreen:

(more of a supporting quote than a contradictory quote...just making certain that was sure)

[Gemini]

The overview never says anything about using damaging spells from the reserve. In fact, it directly implies healing spells...

"The Archmage can then draw upon this reserve of power to weave the most difficult spells of High Magic capable of leaving even the most terribly wounded warrior hale and hardy with nary a scar to show for it."



They also only mention healing for WAAAGH!!! and probably for RF too, but there are nukes and attacks that use up those as well as ones that build thoses. As for it being exactly like WAAAGH!!!, I'm betting theres something to differiante it. We'll see though.

[Dastion]

I've played the Shaman at a gamesday event, it just makes your support spells cheaper or more powerful. I think with 3 points of Waagh you can get a free heal off, and some of your group buffs are better the more you have. That's where the whole "balance" aspect comes into play. I don't remember a single nuke that worked off of Waagh! though most of them built it, even the lifetap. The Warrior Priest is the only career I know of that can use his special mechanic for either more damage or more healing. Though, if I'm wrong you're welcome to give me an example of one. Going off what I remember, and War-resource.com (which is fairly accurate in most aspects from what I know from personal experience), there aren't any.

They would never say, "Aid his allies" when they mean "decimate his foes", especially for a support career.

I honestly think that he will be much like the Shaman (they are supposed to mirror eachother to an extent) as in he uses attacks to build up his magical reserve. But I think that he won't JUST have to use his offensive spells to build it, that's just their way of allowing the Archmage to use his special mechanic without having to use Drain Magic, since not all enemies are going to have AP to drain. So there will, hopefully, be that difference.

That's, of course, assuming they still receive Drain Magic, there isn't any mention of it in their overview as there has been in all the past talks of the Archmage.

[Loomdun]

I've played the Shaman at a gamesday event, it just makes your support spells cheaper or more powerful. I think with 3 points of Waagh you can get a free heal off, and some of your group buffs are better the more you have. That's where the whole "balance" aspect comes into play. I don't remember a single nuke that worked off of Waagh! though most of them built it, even the lifetap. The Warrior Priest is the only career I know of that can use his special mechanic for either more damage or more healing. Though, if I'm wrong you're welcome to give me an example of one. Going off what I remember, and War-resource.com (which is fairly accurate in most aspects from what I know from personal experience), there aren't any.

They would never say, "Aid his allies" when they mean "decimate his foes", especially for a support career.

I honestly think that he will be much like the Shaman (they are supposed to mirror eachother to an extent) as in he uses attacks to build up his magical reserve. But I think that he won't JUST have to use his offensive spells to build it, that's just their way of allowing the Archmage to use his special mechanic without having to use Drain Magic, since not all enemies are going to have AP to drain. So there will, hopefully, be that difference.

That's, of course, assuming they still receive Drain Magic, there isn't any mention of it in their overview as there has been in all the past talks of the Archmage.

the way it sounds though is as if the arcane pool itself supports different abilities altogether.


An Archmage does not waste the power he draws upon; instead they efficiently weave the winds of magic into destructive spells conserving a small amount of arcane energy with each spell they cast. The Archmage can then draw upon this reserve of power to weave the most difficult spells of High Magic capable of leaving even the most terribly wounded warrior hale and hardy with nary a scar to show for it.


First off, it does not say, as you store more Arcane energy your power grows, it sais you "store" or in other words build up the bar, then use Other more advance spells of high magic from this arcane pool which are considered more powerful then your general action point pool.

However by carefully applying force in critical places the Archmage can reserve a wellspring of magical energy that allows him to aid his allies when a normal mage would be all but spent.

This also hints to the fact that you can balance between two bars of magic, when the bright wizard is out of action points, and you are out, You now have your Arcane pool to tap into while the bright wizard has nada.

An Archmage is a powerful caster both offensively and defensively. However they must strive to keep a balance between the powers they manipulate. Weaving only powerful healing or destructive spells will leave the Archmage tired and unable to assist his allies in their darkest hour.

Thats just to prove to you that it wont just be healing.


So yes, it does sound like the arcane mage will have 2 bars to fight from. One contains the stronger spells and the other contains the lesser spells.

Edit: and ahem, drain magic will probably be one of these lesser spells.

http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/HighElves/Careers/Archmage.php

Theres my source

[Dastion]

This is what the slideshow said about Archmages at the Leipzig convention.

Archetype: Healer/Nuker
Most powerful magic users
Master of all Winds of Magic

Core mechanic: Drain Magic
Draws energy from target
Uses drained energy to heal

The deal about balancing your abilities is just saying that if you go all out damage dealing and draining to weaken your enemys, you're not making use of that stored energy you have. While if you focus all out on healing you're not storing any magic that could make your heals more efficient, faster, or bigger. And, of course, I'm sure there are some support spells that cannot be cast at all without a set amount of stored magic.

So, it seems the Archmage will get his reserve in 2 ways:

1) From destructive spells he casts efficiently, he sort of stores the lingering energies of the spells he casts for later use. This seems to be a "twist" off of the normal Drain Mechanic. They want the Archmage to be able to build up his special mechanic without having to spam AP drains (AP Drains were mentioned specifically in a magazine article), since in most NPC fights you'd rather just nuke them down than worry about hurting them in the long run through draining stats (be it AP or whatever).

2) The "Drain Magic" mechanic, which will likely take the form of draining AP, as that is the closest we've seen to any real info on it. You drain away a bit of an enemy's physical or magical potential (AP) and use it to fuel your support spells. This mechanic is likely to see more use in long battles and PVP, but not much in solo where you'll likely just nuke, nuke, nuke, kill, heal yourself...start over.

Again, very similar to the Shaman, who gains his Waagh! through any offensive spell, be it a nuke, lifetap, debuff, DoT, ect. But they will have very different abilities. For example, while you may think that an Archmage being able to drain away a bit of an enemy's AP is powerful, keep in mind that (as of last we knew) players had 500 AP and regenerated 20AP every couple seconds, and abilities cost around 40-150 AP.. so while Draining can be detrimental, I don't see it being much worse than a Shaman casting his -15% damage debuff and -10% strength and no criticals debuffs on a single target, in fact, in the short run, the Shaman's is probably better. Though I'm sure we'll see a variety of Drains rather than just AP.

Note: Any info on abilities is taken directly from war-resource.com, so much of it is likely to have changed. I have indeed played the Shaman, but I didn't exactly take notes so I tend to use War-resource as a reference since it seems pretty accurate to what i remember :)

[OnyxBMW]

However, Dastion, what none of us know is, are they really segregating destructive spells and healing spells, or are the segregating lesser spells from greater spells?

Even you cannot answer this truthfully, since no one has even PLAYED the class yet. There is nothing saying the Archmage doesn't have greater damaging spells that work off the second bar. At this point it is all inference and guessing.

[Dastion]

However, Dastion, what none of us know is, are they really segregating destructive spells and healing spells, or are the segregating lesser spells from greater spells?

Even you cannot answer this truthfully, since no one has even PLAYED the class yet. There is nothing saying the Archmage doesn't have greater damaging spells that work off the second bar. At this point it is all inference and guessing.

There might well be greater spells which can only be cast with the special mechanic, but they will be support spells. As my quote in my previous post shows, they said flat out that the special mechanic would be used to empower your support spells. Not only have they said that, but they have said that the Archmage will be similar to the Shaman, who only uses his special mechanic for support spells. In all of the examples they have given us, and even in the career overview. The only indicated use of the special mechanic for support and never once for empowering destructive spells. Look at both the "How to play..." paragraphs for Archmage and Shaman.

Archmage
An Archmage is a powerful caster both offensively and defensively. However they must strive to keep a balance between the powers they manipulate. Weaving only powerful healing or destructive spells will leave the Archmage tired and unable to assist his allies in their darkest hour. However by carefully applying force in critical places the Archmage can reserve a wellspring of magical energy that allows him to aid his allies when a normal mage would be all but spent.

Shaman
As a Shaman, you’ll have to walk a careful line in balancing your offensive and support abilities. You can achieve the greatest rate of healing by focusing on that skill exclusively. You can maximize your rate of damage by focusing purely on those abilities. However, focusing on a single talent will lessen your overall impact on the battle. The strength your support skills gain from an ongoing Waaagh! is significant. Using your offensive magic to contribute directly to the fight will increase the power of your support magic, allowing you to better help your group.

All the overanalysis of the words "balance" and trying to contrive the word "Aid" to mean, "blasting" is a bit much. Yes it technically aids an ally IF that person is a threat, but it's hardly the proper way to say it if thats what they meant. But by that logic a witch elf is a support career, i mean.. all her abilities focus on killing people, so in a group setting she's be providing invaluable support. Right? That's not what they mean and it's really just wishful disillusion on your part to think that Archmages will be able to use their mechanic for dealing bigger damage. The idea is that they want to give you incentive to heal and support, to make supporting more "fun" by providing incentives to also deal damage. I'll admit that they have made an exception by letting the WP use his mechanic for offense, but he's also a melee healer and he's also on Order's side.. so I doubt we'll see that playstyle on another order support career, though I'm sure we'll see something similar in the DE healer.

[Kaeldor]

I was als overy disappointed that they have taken away "drain magic" as the main ability or gimick of the Archmage. Drain magic is what made high elf mages special in the TT, and would also clearly differenciate them from shaman. Whereas now those two classes really look similar. I envisioned them more as anti-casters. Hopefully they will at least get some spells which drain magic effects.

[Nightz]

OH i read some stuff about shaman and yeah i think moral = more towards dmg spells
and the mana bar or whatever is mainly for support spells maybe be a few offensive but not many thats just my take on things now

[Dastion]

I was als overy disappointed that they have taken away "drain magic" as the main ability or gimick of the Archmage. Drain magic is what made high elf mages special in the TT, and would also clearly differenciate them from shaman. Whereas now those two classes really look similar. I envisioned them more as anti-casters. Hopefully they will at least get some spells which drain magic effects.

I think the drain magic gimmick will still be there, it's too defining of High Magic for it not to be. Here is what I think happened. They thought,

"The Archmage will be the Order's reflection of the shaman. Except he'll use drain magic to fuel his special mechanic. Brilliant! Siphoning AP/Stats off enemies and turning it into healing for his allies."

"But wait, while soloing an Archmage isn't really going to waste time debuffing and 'draining' things that die in 3 hits, besides most NPCs don't even use AP. So that means he'll only really get to use his special mechanic and all his cool abilities in PvP or boss fights."

"I know! Lets just make up something about casting his destructive spells so efficiently that he manages to recapture some of the left over energies..then he can use that for his mechanic!"

"But isn't that pretty much what the shaman does only more elfy sounding?"

"Yea, but it just sounds so cool!"

"Alright, it works. Lets do it."


And then the writer for the overview went into so much detail defining how an Archmage manages to build his "magical reserve" and didn't mention drain magic. :p Bit of guesswork on whether or not NPCs use AP, but I doubt it, they likely just have abilities on cooldowns based on how often the scripters want them to use them. So, they just added in the whole thing in the overview as a way for the archmage to build his mechanic up while dealing damage.

[OutOfContext]

There might well be greater spells which can only be cast with the special mechanic, but they will be support spells.

*snip snip*


You are reading both too much and too little into the information available.

From the same page you referenced-

"An Archmage is a powerful caster both offensively and defensively."

BOTH offensively and defensively, not primarily one or the other. It wouldn't be worded this way if the most powerful abilities an Archmage had were support only.

"However by carefully applying force in critical places the Archmage can reserve a wellspring of magical energy that allows him to aid his allies when a normal mage would be all but spent."

Yes, "aid", as in, participate in the fight, in whatever way his playstyle allows. Aid doesn't only mean "heal" or "buff". Likely the type of "aid" will simply be determined by the player's mastery.

"...to weave the most difficult spells of High Magic capable of leaving even the most terribly wounded warrior hale and hardy..."

Capable of. Not, "only capable of". I am pretty certain High Magic is not healing-only. If you take that sentence the way you seem to be taking it, other types of support spells are out as well, since it only mentions healing, nothing else.

[Dastion]

You missed the part where I posted a direct quote from mythic that says, "uses drained energy to heal."

The slideshow that presented the Swordmaster and Archmage said this:

Archetype: Healer/Nuker
Most powerful magic users
Master of all Winds of Magic

Core mechanic: Drain Magic
Draws energy from target
Uses drained energy to heal

[Slash]

I agree. Anybody who thinks that a drain mechanic (of some form) will not be a part of the Archmage's large arsenal of spells needs to look at the evidence throughout this post, the lore and other various WAR websites that state there is and will be Drain Magic.

[OutOfContext]

You missed the part where I posted a direct quote from mythic that says, "uses drained energy to heal."


I didn't miss that part. I must've missed the part where "core mechanic" means "the full scope of their abilities". You are aware that they refer to "core" as the basic abilities every character of that class has? It says nothing about whatever mastery options may or may not be available, or how they interact with the "core". It simply says that is their distinguishing characteristic from, say, other mages.

[Dastion]

I really don't see the point in assuming that the Archmage will have huge damage abilities that he can build up to using by having damage abilities. You all keep saying, "I know it SAYS "aid" but it could mean that the healer archetype "aids" his team through damage rather than healing." I mean, at the show they said they use their drained/stored energy for healing, they've said it's the order's reflection of the Shaman, and all the examples they've given us have been of using the energy for healing. Yet you still insist it's otherwise?

Don't get me wrong, when I tried out the Goblin Shaman they didn't have the mastery system in place. For all any of us know there *could* be talents in the damage trees (assuming they have one) that allow them to use Waagh or stored magic for them, but it is unlikely since it is counterproductive to the mechanic's purpose. Being able to use special mechanics for pure damage is one of the special advantages of being a Warrior Priest (and likely a Disciple, so most likely melee healers).

[OutOfContext]

"The Archmage is spell casting madness gone bananas. Like everything the High Elves do, they are the best at it, no matter what. Thus the Archmage is not just good at magic; they are super good at magic. This is a Healer / Caster. To be good at his job, the Archmage must taste combat, draw in Chaos energy, control it, then fire it back at the enemy or mold it into positive magic to unleash on his allies."
- Paul Barnett.


There. If you're wondering, that came from http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/video/
about halfway down the page.

[Dastion]

Good catch there, like I said it's possible it might be part of a tree. But taking paul's often wrong information in the videos to heart is generally foolhardy, it's common knowledge that he gets a little too excited at times. My point is that they released specifically (after the video was released) during a gamesday show information that says it's used for healing.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see some cool nukes that require drained magic..it's a very interesting concept and I look forward to trying one out. But it's most likely their drained spells will be as heals, with maybe some used for damage.

Oh, and by the way, from the Leipzig convention(the same convention where they slideshow said "uses drained energy to heal", Jeff Hickman Senior producer said...

"The archmage is a healer/ranged DPSer or nuker if you want to call him that. So, imagine a magic user who really can focus his talents whereever he wants and in this case he has chosen to focus his magic on helping other people and in order to do that he needs to draw magical energy in from really everywhere but specifically his enemies. So, he has abilities that target his enemy not only to damage them but to draw their magical energy out into himself where then he can focus that magical energy into helping his friends." He then goes on to describe taps saying specifically they aren't health taps.

Again, the only specific example of using the drained energy for utility magic. If you want to take Paul's words to heart so much (which, again, we already know better than). He says that an Archmage can take *Any spell he wants and cast it in any way he wants.* Do you really think he'll be able to cast any spell in the game? No. I'll believe the officially released and presented info over the podcast where it's paul's job to hype the career and be over zealous.

[OutOfContext]

Good catch there, like I said it's possible it might be part of a tree.

Well, okay. None of us will really know how it works until some actually complete information is released. I'm not talking about "this class can do such and such things", but "this class can do all these things and that's it". Nowhere in any of the summaries/videos/whatever has said what the class doesn't do (aside from, say, wear heavy armor or play on the side of Destruction, etc.), and since multiple sources put offensive and defensive abilities on approximately an equal footing, it seems pretty stupid to think that they will only play a "utility" role. I'm thinking that since the class is the High Elf's primary healer, that's what they are emphasizing, since, if you were describing, for example, DAoC's Cleric, you wouldn't even mention its offensive ability except as an afterthought, if at all. (way too many commas there.)

But if they were going for something that was a healer and only a healer, they wouldn't have called it an "Archmage". At least, one would hope they have more sense than that.

[Nightz]

Every support career can Dps they may be good healers but they will have deacent Dps especially if you spec that way get over it in WAR everyone fights even the healers

[Alesthes]

In my opinion, believing that an appropriately specialized Archmage won't be able to cover a substantial dps role both in RvR and PvE environments is quite an understatement of Mythic intentions.
Even Blizzard(!) after some time moved toward that goal, and it seems that so far the WAR developpers showed a better understanding of the need for this kind of flexibility in every class role. I may be delusional on this, but I hope not.
Moreover, the objection that this would be unfair towards pure dps classes isn't very strong. A support class that specializes toward a dps role is certainly going to give up a lot on others sides. A good level of balance on this issue isn't certainly impossible with some decent fine-tuning.

Then, about more specific mechanics of the class, I just think it's too early to say. Honestly, we have little information and even taking every word (written or spoken) as an evidence of how the class will really behave is too much. They are just giving us a generic idea so far, speculating too much is certainly fun but certainly unaccurate too!

[OutOfContext]

Moreover, the objection that this would be unfair towards pure dps classes isn't very strong. A support class that specializes toward a dps role is certainly going to give up a lot on others sides.

So true. A defining point of tank classes is their heavy armor, but you don't see tanks whining that other classes are overpowered for having armor too, because it is so much less effective that they would be stupid to rely on it too much in combat. Likewise, if a "support" class has high damage ability and, due to their mastery choices, weak healing ability, it would be a very inefficient use of their resources to use those healing abilities at all, so they don't even enter into an evaluation of their effectiveness.

Going to make up some numbers here- say a Bright Wizard has a spell that deals 100 damage to a single target for 50 AP, and another ability that does 40 damage to a single target for 50 AP, all other factors being equal. Which one are they going to use? Now, say a damage-specced Archmage has a spell that deals 100 damage to a single target for 50 AP, and another spell that heals an ally for 40 health for 50 AP. They would be stupid to use that healing spell in combat, just as the bright wizard would be stupid to use the lesser damage spell. There is no imbalance there just because the Archmage's abilities include healing, if they are so inefficient as to be useless in combat.

[Dastion]

So true. A defining point of tank classes is their heavy armor, but you don't see tanks whining that other classes are overpowered for having armor too, because it is so much less effective that they would be stupid to rely on it too much in combat. Likewise, if a "support" class has high damage ability and, due to their mastery choices, weak healing ability, it would be a very inefficient use of their resources to use those healing abilities at all, so they don't even enter into an evaluation of their effectiveness.

Having armor is hardly the defining point of tanks in WAR. The defining point is the ability to not only take a beating, which is a combination of HIGH armor, avoidance, and HP. If a career had HIGH VALUES of that while being able to still be, say, a ranged DPS. Then tanks would be whining. Furthermore, in WAR tanks will be known for their crowd control abilities as well. Having armor is no more a defining characteristic of a tank than having AP is. All characters have both. It's how much and what you do with it that determines the characteristics.

Going to make up some numbers here- say a Bright Wizard has a spell that deals 100 damage to a single target for 50 AP, and another ability that does 40 damage to a single target for 50 AP, all other factors being equal. Which one are they going to use? Now, say a damage-specced Archmage has a spell that deals 100 damage to a single target for 50 AP, and another spell that heals an ally for 40 health for 50 AP. They would be stupid to use that healing spell in combat, just as the bright wizard would be stupid to use the lesser damage spell. There is no imbalance there just because the Archmage's abilities include healing, if they are so inefficient as to be useless in combat.

Do you actually think mythic would ever make the healer archetype such that they had heals so ineffectual that they'd never enter into the equation to use? Not using heals would be making you into a DPS career and being able to even have access to heals while dealing comparable damage as a DPS career would make you overpowered. It's not going to happen.

Furthermore, heals are always more efficent than damage, it's how games work since often 1 healer has to attempt to counter multiple DPSers. Your logic is simply flawed. If I have a DAMAGE spell that does 100 damage for 50AP then yes, I will use it over one that does 40 damage for 50AP. However, if I have a heal spell that does an inefficient heal for AP I will still use it because it's the only heal I have. Whether or not I can cast a more efficient damage spell doesn't help me much since AP regenerates rather quickly and what MATTERS is that I get some heals going if I want to survive in order to deal more damage. There is little logic in saying that because a damage spell is more efficient you wouldn't heal, the two are seperate and hardly comparable to two nukes.

There are a multitude of factors which determine which spells you would use in which situations and why you might use a less efficient spell. For example, what if that 40dmg 50AP ability happens to be a lifetap? The combination of healing and damage might make it worth the lesser damage if I'm hurt. What if it simply casts faster and I an unable to cast my big powerful nuke? But, the point remains. Even if you are a Healer specced for your most damaging abilities your base heals are going to be the most efficient you have available and therefore will be what you often use. Be it for soloing so you can run off and heal up between fights or if you are in a group, because the group will often expect you to heal unless they have someone else to cover it and there is no one else available to fill the DPS slot.

[OutOfContext]

Having armor is hardly the defining point of tanks in WAR. The defining point is the ability to not only take a beating, which is a combination of HIGH armor, avoidance, and HP.

I am aware of that. I was generalizing.

Do you actually think mythic would ever make the healer archetype such that they had heals so ineffectual that they'd never enter into the equation to use? Not using heals would be making you into a DPS career and being able to even have access to heals while dealing comparable damage as a DPS career would make you overpowered. It's not going to happen.

Did DAoC's Smite Cleric have powerful heals? No, because it didn't spec that way.

EDIT: Overpowered? No. Having access to an ability doesn't necessarily mean that ability is useful. And if it is not useful (As in my hypothetical example of a fictional Archmage that specialized in damage abilities) it won't be used, unless the character is interested in playing under their full potential. If you can deal 50 DPS in damage, you wouldn't be wasting time healing 30 health per second. It just wouldn't be a good use of your resources, and you would fall way behind in the fight. I think the misunderstanding here is that you are assuming that all abilities a character has will be equally useful even after making all mastery choices. (Admittedly, I don't even know that they won't be, that is just an assumption based on what has been said about masteries.)

There are a multitude of factors which determine which spells you would use in which situations and why you might use a less efficient spell. For example, what if that 40dmg 50AP ability happens to be a lifetap?

This is why "all other factors being equal" was part of the post. Reading Comprehension 101, go! My point was that the specialization in different areas would create a discrepancy between skills, and the ones that were "passed up", so to speak, would be much less efficient, and therefore not used.

[Dastion]

I am quite aware you said, "All other factors equal" that is why it was put into a seperate paragraph than the one where I refuted your original claim. It is a seperate line of thought in which I am saying that if they did do something like that all other factors would not be equal. There is no way they would put in two abilities with exactly the same AP Costs, Casting Times, and Effects but with one doing 40% of the damage of the first. There would be other balancing factors which make up for it. For example, if it was a Sorcerer then maybe that 100 damage spell is Dark Magic so you might want to use the 40 damage version when you don't want to risk blowing up. It is not a case of failing to comprehend what you wrote, it is a case of you failing to make a logical example. Hypotheticals are all well and good, but have little value to a discussion when they make no sense.

Rethink your logic. You claim that the example with the two damage spells, two abilities which perform exactly the same function, correlates to your example of a damage spell vs a healing spell two spells which have exact opposite functions. When driving, do you refuse to break when you drive because you can accelerate so much better? Or does breaking play a function in getting to where you're going just as much as acceleration does? (No, I'm not talking Physics where everything is accelerating. Not that I'm sure you'd make that connection). You may be able to do 100 damage for your 50 AP, but the Bright Wizard next to you can do 200 damage AoE for 50AP and is taking, amazingly enough, an average of 40 damage per cast cycle (assuming all cast times equal :) ). Do you sit there and spam your piddly 100 damage spell that is oh so much more "efficient" or do you spam heal him so he can maintain his superior damage? Sorry, I should say, "should you" not "do you", and obviously it's a hypothetical "you" and not an actual "you" since I already know you don't know what you're talking about :)

Granted, if you're solo you'd mainly use your offensive ability but hopefully you're smart enough to then use your built up special mechanic to cast the heal for free, or for a bigger effect, ect. But, the point is, you'd still make use of it and you'd be an idiot to ignore the ability to heal. I mean, that's likely why you're playing a healer career specced for damage. Because you're inept at group play and therefore will end up soloing most of the time and will need to be able to throw yourself some heals between pew pewing the Zealot who is easily healing through your damage and has you so debuffed that you fall easily to his Maurader friend who tosses you around like a rag doll because you are incapable of fully realizing the potential of your career and therefor no tank in his right mind would seperate himself from his effective party members in order to save you.

I mean, that tank's stuns and knockbacks are more efficiently used on people who contribute..right? If he protects you, you get off 2 100 damage spells before you die. If he protects the bright wizard, he can get off 2 200 damage AoEs (all things equal, of course). And since he can't rely on you to heal the Bright wizard.. or even yourself..since you claim you'd *never* use the heal. Then he might as well let you learn your lesson the hardway. I mean, it's your account, you can play as you choose. But they can also play as they choose, and it would likely be without you. :-)

[Alesthes]

I won't enter in the numbers and examples, since I am not fond of overspeculation. But let me say this. Dastion, you assume as if it was a dogma that a class under the support archetype will always have to play in healer role, otherwise it will be essentially wasted and underperforming. Well, too keep my previous example, that's not even true anymore in that Blizzard game, were almost any hybrid or even healer class can substantially specialize and perform at high levels in other roles. Yes, even not casting a single heal sometimes.
Now, why Mythic, which is clearly stating every now and then that their support classes will be less healing-centered than those of that other game, wouldn't make a similar option viable? It's not impossible at all, it's actually already happening in different MMORPGs.
We are all speculating, of course, but it seems to me quite clear that this is the most likely outcome. Until the game comes out and we'll all find out we were wrong... :)

[OutOfContext]

I am quite aware you said, "All other factors equal" that is why it was put into a seperate paragraph than the one where I refuted your original claim.

Refuted? I see no refuting. You have no evidence to back up your claims. You are ignoring the parts of what I say that don't fit what you think I'm saying. Yes, a class will most likely have skills that are similar in the beginning and, as mastery choices are made, diverge from each other, that was the point. Maybe the difference won't be that large, but it doesn't matter, the fact that there is a difference was the whole point of what I was saying.

And seriously, what the hell? Trying to correlate this with driving a car? Could you possibly have a more irrelevant example? "I mean, like, when you're cooking some bacon, do you just keep heating the bacon till its burned instead of turning off the stove durr hurr"? Damage and healing spells are not exact opposite functions. They aren't exactly the same thing, but they are both, in essence, a contribution to the fight. They do it differently, but for the same purpose.

And yes, if I was playing a healer character, I would heal the classes that needed it. The point is, "support" classes are not HEALER ONLY CLASS DON'T YOU DARE DO ANYTHING ELSE WITH IT EVER! How can you not see that? They give the support classes a choice of whether to play as a healer or fill another role. One who is playing a healer role, will heal. One who is playing another role, will not. (Alesthes, I know you already said this, I am agreeing.)

Dastion... Support. Not healer. Try to wrap your head around that concept, it is pretty obvious you don't get it.

EDIT: Oh, and by the way, the example you used would be pretty accurate except for one tiny little thing. You do not know how the damage of the two classes would compare. Your made up numbers only support your theory if they are really stupid enough to make them that widely dispersed. A full-damage-spec Archmage wouldn't be even remotely logical if they could only do a fraction of the damage of a normal ranged DPS, so this kind of goes back to the argument about whether or not an Archmage could choose to play a DPS role, which, by the way, at least two sources say they can, and none say they cannot.

[Dastion]

Careful about the insults. I'd rather not see a thread locked because you keep attempting to turn a discussion into an arguement. I'll admit I haven't been at my best, but I have intentionally deleted several very biting remarks with some restraint you have yet to show.

Alesthes made a very good point about how silly it is to use numbers in examples. You insult me for using an example where a DPS career has a higher AP/Dmg efficiency than a healer career while you yourself made a very terrible example of a healer career who had terrible efficiency at his heals. I intentionally chose drastic numbers because I wanted you to object to them because I wanted you to, by your own words, say show silly it is to make up drastic and unlikely numbers for abilities in order to prove a point. So, thank you for making my point and thank you Alesthes for seeing it :)

Now, onto the discussion. First, let's address this bit:

Dastion... Support. Not healer. Try to wrap your head around that concept, it is pretty obvious you don't get it.

No, it's Healer. Not Support. The archetype is called healer. Try paying a little more attention to the facts mythic tells us rather than what you'd like to believe. This isn't WoW, this isn't a game where End Game PvE rules all and non-healing specs have to be viable in some way to a raid to be worth giving up a spot for all while not stepping on the toes of classes who's only focus is in damage. If you have played end game WoW you know that these "hybrids" who choose to go DPS have weaknesses that make them not quite as viable as someone who does DPS in the same way. They make up for it through their support abilities. A Shadow Priest provides mana, a Shaman and Pally provide buffs, a druid provides auras based on his DPS form (Leader of the Pack or Moonkin Aura). Their specs give them special abilities that greatly assist a raid yet require them to be DPSing (or prevent them access to healing) in order to do so. I played a 70 Prot Pally (Tank) all the way up through SSC and TK, I know all about proving your worth as a "healbot" who chooses to go another route and my guild loved me.

My whole disagreement with OutOfContext (who I am beginning to think is just trolling for an arguement), is that he says specifically that you would never use a heal if it was less efficient than a damage spell, which is a complete load. Mythic's intent is to reward you for being offensive, to make it fun and effective for not being a healbot. In WoW, for example, a Holy Priest who say, keeps Holy Fire going on the enemy may think he's helping. But he's not. Everytime he casts a spell he gets put under the 5 second rule (no mana regen), so by doing that he's hurting his mana regen and hurting his staying power. It's detrimental for him to do anything but heal.

Mythic doesn't want it to be that way. They are rewarding healers for using their offensive, be it through debuffing or dealing damage. The mastery system is new, it's meant to give you the opportunity to specialize your character a little more for your playstyle, but it won't completely transform your career, they've said as much. Yes, it's possible for you to spec damage and possibility get to see the big numbers, it's possible for you to completely ignore your healing spells and also ignore that flashing special mechanic that says, "Hey, if you cast a heal now..it's bigger/faster/cheaper!" But, at the same time, it's possible for you to spec healing and just sit back and spam heal, and you ignore that empty little meter for your mechanic that says, "Hey, you know if you just cast a couple of DoTs or Nukes when no one needs a heal, I'll reward you for it!" Both people could play as they please, but neither person would be near as effective as, say, the DPS Specced Shaman who is throwing out DoTs and Bolts of energy constantly while watching his special mechanic that lets him cast his big slow heal for near instant speeds or for no cost and doing so. He'll never do the same damage as the Sorceress next to him, she specced for damage the second she chose her career. But he can still give his enemies a hurting and help her keep on dealing high damage when her dark magic explodes on her.

[OutOfContext]

Careful about the insults. I'd rather not see a thread locked because you keep attempting to turn a discussion into an arguement. I'll admit I haven't been at my best, but I have intentionally deleted several very biting remarks with some restraint you have yet to show.

I'm not seeing any insults, other than you calling me a troll in this post. But I'll ignore that for the sake of "discussion".

Alesthes made a very good point about how silly it is to use numbers in examples. You insult me for using an example where a DPS career has a higher AP/Dmg efficiency than a healer career while you yourself made a very terrible example of a healer career who had terrible efficiency at his heals. I intentionally chose drastic numbers because I wanted you to object to them because I wanted you to, by your own words, say show silly it is to make up drastic and unlikely numbers for abilities in order to prove a point. So, thank you for making my point and thank you Alesthes for seeing it :)

Except, I wasn't making up drastic and unlikely numbers to prove a point. I was making up reasonable numbers to support a point. I even admitted they were made up for that purpose, and I don't see how what I used could be called "drastic". I was attempting to show that a class having certain secondary abilities being healing rather than something else doesn't make it unbalanced. Ok, I'll be more specific on that one, since I wasn't clear enough, obviously (I won't even make up numbers this time). Hypothetically: Two classes have equal DPS ability in the same situation, i.e., single target at the same range. One class has some minor healing ability alongside that, the other has some minor AoE capability alongside that. Assuming there's no huge gap between the usefulness of their secondary abilities, there is no imbalance there. (They don't have to be useful in the same situations, and in fact, should not be, or else they would be basically the same class.) That was the point I was trying to make, said almost exactly the same way (just without numbers), but it apparently wasn't clear enough.

No, it's Healer. Not Support. The archetype is called healer. Try paying a little more attention to the facts mythic tells us rather than what you'd like to believe.

I am aware that that is the name given to the archetype that encompasses much more than simple healing functionality, yes. The NAME is healer. The ROLE is support. I am paying more attention than you apparently are, since they've said very clearly that it won't fit a traditional healer role.

My whole disagreement with OutOfContext (who I am beginning to think is just trolling for an arguement), is that he says specifically that you would never use a heal if it was less efficient than a damage spell, which is a complete load.

No, not just "less", but "significantly less". I don't know the final numbers for the game, and if it turns out that there isn't much of a gap there, then yes, players will use both. If, however, there IS a significant difference at higher levels of mastery (note, I'm referring to AFTER all specialization is done), then players who use the lesser abilities will be hurting themselves and their teammates, though obviously not directly. They aren't going to accidentally make the tank explode or something. Hmm... you refer to WoW for an example (I'm not mocking you for that, I did my time there too, but it's been a while) so I'll see if I can remember my point there... It'd be like an Arcane-specced Mage relying on a level 1 fireball (or whatever it was called) and expecting it to be useful. Or a Smite-spec Cleric using their baseline heals as a group's primary healer. If you rely on abilities outside of your specialty, you are going to be doomed, no matter what your archetype is named.

EDIT: Also, you still seem to be fixated on the premise that the Archmage won't be able to use their special mechanic for anything but healing. I'm kind of wondering why. You really think the career overview video was a complete lie? I'll agree with exaggeration (he does say something about "terrifying amounts of damage") but 100% false? I wonder why anyone posted it to the website if that's the case. Or noticed since then, since it's been there several months.

[Dastion]

Hrm, staying with the WoW example it's not really like using a rank 1 fireball. It's like a firemage using his frost nova spell. He's not specced for it, and it's not near as effective as it could be.. since if he was frost he'd be able to gain a +50% chance to crit while the target was frozen by it and would have less of a CD for it. However, it still has it's usefulness. Granted, there are some spells he won't usually use. A closer example would have been saying a Fire Mage using Frostbolt, though I suppose that still has some uses because of it's slow..though not much.

As for the Smite specced priest, they are actually a great example of what we are likely to see. A smite priest in WoW has a talent that says whenever they crit with a spell their next smite casts instantly and for no mana cost. So, even if the Priest is healing (the Holy Tree has many talents that effect both smites and heals), he can still throw out some smites without hurting himself. That talent is the reason I used Holy Fire in my example.

Oddly enough I did have a whole paragraph about "roles" being different than archetypes in my last post, tanks and healers are support, ect. I deleted it because my posts are long enough as it is :) The point here is that, just like in WoW, since people insist on throwing it out there constantly despite the very different end games that make for a completely different kind of balancing, support careers will still maintain their support role. Every WoW "healer" who specs for damage still supports the party, that's why they are viable in raids. So you can be sure that in mythic's game you will see something very similar. I mean, they've said straight out that the amount of specialization from masteries will not be so much as to change your character's role, only add a little flavor.

[OutOfContext]

Hrm, staying with the WoW example it's not really like using a rank 1 fireball. It's like a firemage using his frost nova spell. He's not specced for it, and it's not near as effective as it could be.. since if he was frost he'd be able to gain a +50% chance to crit while the target was frozen by it and would have less of a CD for it. However, it still has it's usefulness. Granted, there are some spells he won't usually use. A closer example would have been saying a Fire Mage using Frostbolt, though I suppose that still has some uses because of it's slow..though not much.

Well, I did say it'd been a while, so my example wasn't the best, but I see you saw the point anyway.

As for the Smite specced priest, they are actually a great example of what we are likely to see. A smite priest in WoW has a talent that says whenever they crit with a spell their next smite casts instantly and for no mana cost. So, even if the Priest is healing (the Holy Tree has many talents that effect both smites and heals), he can still throw out some smites without hurting himself. That talent is the reason I used Holy Fire in my example.

I don't know much about the priest in WoW, I was referring to the Cleric in DAoC, which was a "healer" class that (if specced for Smiting) barely if ever used their heals with any effectiveness. But again that's pretty similar to what you said.

Oddly enough I did have a whole paragraph about "roles" being different than archetypes in my last post, tanks and healers are support, ect. I deleted it because my posts are long enough as it is :) The point here is that, just like in WoW, since people insist on throwing it out there constantly despite the very different end games that make for a completely different kind of balancing, support careers will still maintain their support role. Every WoW "healer" who specs for damage still supports the party, that's why they are viable in raids. So you can be sure that in mythic's game you will see something very similar. I mean, they've said straight out that the amount of specialization from masteries will not be so much as to change your character's role, only add a little flavor.

Exactly. The only problem there is that the support role isn't all that clearly defined- they do both offense and defense. So it's not a big leap to assume that they might be able to choose between full offense or full defense rather than a balance between the two. I don't think I'm really disagreeing with you here, just clarifying my view.

[wellsy]

OutofContexth - the Archmage is all about balance between offense and defence. They can cast damage spells, certainly, which, I feel I can speculate, might have a Drain Magic mechanic built into them (a very small drain, I might add). When combined with larger proper Drain spell, it makes the healing so effective you'd be a fool to ignore it, even if you are specced to do more damage than one who has chosen to specialise in more healing and support spells (eg some form of Curse of Arrow Attraction to help Shadow Warriors and maybe Engineers... ok, maybe not Engineers. Honestly, Dwarfs and their blackpowder... :rolleyes:).

But the keyword here is balance, and you seem to have missed it entirely.

Don't believe me? Check the class description here (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/HighElves/Careers/Archmage.php).

You've got nothing to worry about with regards to inefficient heals - it's part of the game mechanic. Only do one thing, and you slow yourself down.

[OutOfContext]

OutofContexth - the Archmage is all about balance between offense and defence.

Er, no. It's about balance between lesser and greater skills. Yes, I've read that class description. Note-

"However they must strive to keep a balance between the powers they manipulate. Weaving only powerful healing or destructive spells will leave the Archmage tired and unable to assist his allies in their darkest hour."

Doesn't say, only powerful healing spells, but either healing or destructive. It only mentions the "lesser" as being destructive, but the greater as being either offensive OR defensive. Of course, just because it only mentions lesser destructives doesn't automatically mean there won't be lesser healing spells that they also "reserve" power from.

[wellsy]

Er, no. It's about balance between lesser and greater skills. Yes, I've read that class description. Note-

"However they must strive to keep a balance between the powers they manipulate. Weaving only powerful healing or destructive spells will leave the Archmage tired and unable to assist his allies in their darkest hour."

Doesn't say, only powerful healing spells, but either healing or destructive. It only mentions the "lesser" as being destructive, but the greater as being either offensive OR defensive. Of course, just because it only mentions lesser destructives doesn't automatically mean there won't be lesser healing spells that they also "reserve" power from.

I think you misunderstand. Offensive spells needn't be DPS spells. They can have negative status effects, be the humble drain magic tap, or can make magic spells explode in the enemy's face (I'm thinking of Fortune is Fickle, though they dropped that from the 7th Ed High Magic).

Thus, they must balance between aiding their allies and being a b**** to their enemies, because if they do one to the detriment of the other, then they lose a key source of magic (if they focus exclusively on positive buffs for their allies), or fail to live up to their role and thus gimp themselves and their group (focusing on negative buffs on the enemy).

What Dastion said earlier about the tank helping the Bright Wizard because he was doing his job is right. If you don't do your job right, then you suffer for it. Paul has said there will be no healbots. Essentially, the Archmage will really be the epitome of that philosophy. The keyword is balance, and you would do well to remember it.

[Dastion]

Having the guy who has me quoted support my opinion might not weigh all that much lol. But thanks Wellsy, I'm glad you see my point.

I think OutofContext and I's main discrepency is that he thinks there will be options for full offensive while I don't think so. I think that there will be an offensive spec that very likely allows you to use your magical reserve in some offensive manner, but it won't do so to the detriment of making your heals any less efficient, it will simply give you a big spell or two to use when you really want to see the big numbers. But you're likely going to have to use your drains and such in order to build up to it.

As far as the destruction spells having minor Drains, that's not the case from what the overview says. You see, I think Mythic saw the flaw in only having the mechanic build up through Drain Magic.. I mean, when I'm leveling up do I *really* want to waste time draining a mob that's going to die in a couple of hits anyhow? I'd rather just go nuke, nuke, and move on than waste time draining something to little effect. Their answer to that issue is what you see in the overview. They are saying that while Archmages may not have as powerful destructive spells (due to being more generalists than specialists) as the DPS casters, they are still better at the actual use of the winds. So much so that they can capture the lingering spell energy, store it and use it to power their heals/big spells just like they can with Drain Magic. However, I fully expect the Drains to fill the meter faster than the destructive spells. Hopefully it's an actual meter and not a 5 point system like nearly every other special mechanic we've seen so far.

[OutOfContext]

I think you misunderstand. Offensive spells needn't be DPS spells.

That's true. But what else could "destructive" mean, since that's the word they use there? You don't "destroy" something by just weakening it, you do it by damaging it till it's, well, destroyed. Offensive includes all those things you mentioned, yes, but specifically saying "destructive" is really pretty much only one thing.

If you don't do your job right, then you suffer for it.

I have no disagreement with that, only your narrow view of what the "job" will be.

I think OutofContext and I's main discrepency is that he thinks there will be options for full offensive while I don't think so.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. Unfortunately, we don't have the skill tree to prove either way. I'm just saying that dismissing it entirely, as you are doing, is pretty narrow-minded given their broad descriptions. They've done it before, and so have others. (Note: when I refer to "full offensive" I'm not saying that I think they won't still have healing abilities, since the majority of abilities classes have are there by default, and the mastery paths just kind of push them apart. I'm saying that I think one path will make the offensive powerful enough that they can keep up with a ranged DPSer at least in one way (most likely single target with little or no AoE ability, with all their talk of "efficiency" (parentheses within parentheses are fun)), while leaving their other abilities relatively inefficient, as baseline non-specialized abilities usually are.)

[VeriusCarth]

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. Unfortunately, we don't have the skill tree to prove either way. I'm just saying that dismissing it entirely, as you are doing, is pretty narrow-minded given their broad descriptions. They've done it before, and so have others. (Note: when I refer to "full offensive" I'm not saying that I think they won't still have healing abilities, since the majority of abilities classes have are there by default, and the mastery paths just kind of push them apart. I'm saying that I think one path will make the offensive powerful enough that they can keep up with a ranged DPSer at least in one way (most likely single target with little or no AoE ability, with all their talk of "efficiency" (parentheses within parentheses are fun)), while leaving their other abilities relatively inefficient, as baseline non-specialized abilities usually are.)

Now, I'm not trying to pick sides here, nor incur anyone's particular wrath by disagreeing, but... they've made a point of saying that the classes are going to stick to their roles. An Archmage isn't just going to break out and out-dps the Ranged DPS classes or anything like that. Nor will they ever really render their heals ineffective, or the like. They won't be able to min/max like other classes can in other games. They have their role, and they can shift how they carry out that role, but they maintain their role.

Basically speaking; you could make an Archmage have slightly weakened, or less heals, in favor of more damaging spells, but he's still going to be a healer. It's certainly not going to be like a Priest, where he can choose to be either a Healer, or a DPSer. If they could, it wouldn't make sense to make this distinction between the classes as they've done.

Mythic is being pretty resolute about giving the races and classes ways to customize themselves, and change how they play, but also maintaining that they are what they are, and that you won't be able to up and shift that. All the classes have a function, and a purpose, and they're being a smart, and giving us different paths to take to get to that goal, but no matter what road or tree we take, each role eventually meets at it's own end of the road.

If I'm basically repeating something you guys went over before, just ignore my post, I didn't take the time to read through all of them; I'm sleepy.

[OutOfContext]

Now, I'm not trying to pick sides here, nor incur anyone's particular wrath by disagreeing, but... they've made a point of saying that the classes are going to stick to their roles. An Archmage isn't just going to break out and out-dps the Ranged DPS classes or anything like that. Nor will they ever really render their heals ineffective, or the like. They won't be able to min/max like other classes can in other games. They have their role, and they can shift how they carry out that role, but they maintain their role.

Basically speaking; you could make an Archmage have slightly weakened, or less heals, in favor of more damaging spells, but he's still going to be a healer. It's certainly not going to be like a Priest, where he can choose to be either a Healer, or a DPSer. If they could, it wouldn't make sense to make this distinction between the classes as they've done.

Mythic is being pretty resolute about giving the races and classes ways to customize themselves, and change how they play, but also maintaining that they are what they are, and that you won't be able to up and shift that. All the classes have a function, and a purpose, and they're being a smart, and giving us different paths to take to get to that goal, but no matter what road or tree we take, each role eventually meets at it's own end of the road.

If I'm basically repeating something you guys went over before, just ignore my post, I didn't take the time to read through all of them; I'm sleepy.

Well said. Maybe I'm being stubborn here, but I'm going on both Mythic's past and what other MMO's have done, as well as what they have said specifically about this game. "Healers" haven't always had to play healers. And they've even come right out and said that it won't be a pure healer, nor will there be only one way to play a class. Yes, they will stick to their roles. The problem, as I stated before, is that the support class (yes, I know it's called healer, they've said themselves the name only loosely fits, so I don't like to use it) doesn't have a 100% clear-cut role. Even "Tanks" don't all have to play a stereotypical tank (they have both offensive and defensive options, e.g. the Swordmaster's Greatsword vs. Sword and Shield), likewise the support doesn't necessarily have to be a healer. It's a hybrid role, and again, as said before, it's not a huge logical leap to assume one might be able to take one part over the other. It's not a new thing. They made a mistake in labelling the archetype "Healer"; they should be aware that people will read that to mean exactly what it has often meant in the past, which is "Healer ONLY", and no matter how many times they state that it isn't, people still look at it that way, and likely will even after release.

One other thing- in the past, there's been pretty much only one way to play a healer, with very few exceptions (Guild Wars is the first that comes to mind, and even that gave an offensive option to the class). The mastery system gives players three different ways to play a class. Do you really think that all three, for the archmage, will be devoted to healing/buffing? What would they have, a line for healing/buffing one person at a time, a line for healing/buffing the group, and... what? Or maybe split the other way, healing single/multiple and buffing single/multiple? Either way still leaves one line unused. Mythic itself has used that extra space in the past to turn its Cleric into a Mage (with less damage and heavier armor, though here the Archmage's armor is described as the same as other mage classes, so if it were to have a damage option it would likely be equivalent, or maybe slightly less since it's supposedly able to sustain it longer), and other MMO's have done the same thing, when they give multiple skill lines to one class. I hate to refer to WoW, but it's probably the most well known at this point, so I don't have to detail the example for people to get it.

EDIT: Also, another support class to look at- Warrior Priest. It's described as, basically, to generalize to what other games have called it, a Paladin. None of the support classes are pure healers, this one seems to have the most clear description of how it isn't, though. It's a melee class, that can heal if it wants to. Just as the Archmage is a ranged class, that can heal if it wants to. Nowhere in any of the support class descriptions (that I've noticed, anyway) does it say that they have to play a healer role, just that that is an option to only those classes.

[wellsy]

OutofContext, I think you presume too much. All this is is speculation. Nothing more. We could wake up tomorrow and find that Archmagi get to turn their enemies into butterflies and kill them with Terry Gilliam cartoons (funny, but not likely).

Still, Dastion and Verius are both making valid points - the support/healer will always be support/healer. Like I said earlier, it hardly makes much sense that they be able to out DPS a Bright Wizard, say, because the Archmage has a far greater potential range than the Bright Wizard for casting spells.

And if you want three ways to play? Here thay are:

Concentrate more on healing and positive buffs of allies
Concentrate on negative buffing of the enemy and debuffing of allies
Balanced between numbers 1 and 2


Now, DPS would be a part of number 2 path, but it wouldn't be the whole range. As others have said, the Archmage is the best wizard in the game, and that is because they know so much that literally nothing is beyond them. True, they won't be able to do the same damage as a Bright Wizard, but they can still be an awesome force to be reckoned with.

[Dastion]

I think the 3 trees will be Support Magic, Destruction Magic, & Drain Magic. All of which would work to making you better at your role, healing. But you'd become better at it in the way you choose. Here is an example of what they will likely look like:

Support Magic This mastery line gives you access to the best heals and buffs available to you while also passively increasing the effectiveness of your normal heals. However, you likely still need to build up a magical reserve through either destructive magic or drain magic in order to be the most effective.

Destruction Magic This mastery line would let you have the best damage spells. All of your offensive spells would deal more damage while you gain access to bigger spells. These spells might even include things like knockbacks and possibly even an AoE or a BIG nuke. These spells might also require a magical reserve in order to cast.

Drain Magic This tree is sort of a catch all. You get better Drains, which, if that magazine article floating around is correct, allows you to drain AP from enemies. Perhaps this line lets you use some of your magical reserve to gain AP or give some to allies. Furthermore, maybe it allows you to drain in other ways, like weakening an enemy's spells or removing buffs. This would work well with your heals since you will be gaining extra ways to gain a magical reserve.

So, you see..no matter which route you select every tree would help your healing while allowing you to play to your playstyle. If you choose Support Magic you simply become better at healing, period. If you choose Destructive Magic you deal more damage while you're building up that reserve for your heals, this is likely a good leveling spec, if you choose drain magic you gain some great utility abilities while funneling magic for your big heals. No line changes your role, it simply changes how you perform your role.

[OutOfContext]

OutofContext, I think you presume too much. All this is is speculation. Nothing more.

Yes, every bit of what I've said is speculation, especially where I've quoted Mythic directly. Sure, it's not 100% proof, but it's a bit more than just "well I think blah blah blah". Also, that third thing you suggested isn't necessary at all, since you can do that anyway by partially mastering the two other trees. They won't have much overlap, if any, because of that. It'd be wasted space.

Also, where are you getting the thing about range? I'm not saying I think you're making it up, just that I haven't seen that anywhere. Or are you referring to variety, as in, a range of abilities? I wouldn't even say that they have a greater variety without knowing what their abilities are. Single damage, area damage, DoT etc., is just as much variety as single damage, heal, buff/debuff etc.

And I never said I thought the Archmage would be exactly equivalent to a ranged DPS class, that was an entirely different argument about whether or not said equivalency would automatically be overpowered. I still maintain that it wouldn't be, assuming they did everything right and didn't let them have that AND good healing ability, or as much variety in offense, as well.

Dastion, that's a pretty good assumption (except the part about destruction helping with healing, that's kind of counter-intuitive- deal more damage AND heal better?), though I would wager that the drain mechanic isn't an ability in itself, but like the class description page describes it; just when they're trying to sum it up in a few words "drain" is the closest they can get. Offensive spells "drain" "mana" from the enemy and add it to your reserve- it's part of the other skills themselves, something like the shaman's mechanic. Maybe that line you suggested would give a passive buff to all the "drains" of all abilities? Actually, just after I typed that I remembered that they divide skills between the mastery lines and they don't affect the other lines, so skip that. Maybe the baseline/supplementals could be as you say, with the other forms of manipulation like debuffs etc. I like Offense/Defense/Utility better than Defense/Defense/Utility as a probable scenario anyway.

[Dastion]

No, Archmages in the TT actually had a spell called "Drain Magic", it wasn't a destructive spell and it's extremely iconic to the Archmage. Drain Magic essentially weakens an enemy's magic and though this was a few months ago, the only direct example they've given of what could be drained was AP. If you read the overview carefully you'll notice they go to great length to describe how the Archmage can build his mechanic through destructive magic, never mentioning the Drain Magic mechanic. As I feel like I've said a dozen times in this post, this is their way of giving you an alternative way to build your mechanic since "Draining" is sort of like debuffing. While soloing, why would you ever Drain or Debuff something that is going to die quickly? You wouldn't, so if Archmages only built their mechanic through Drain Magic it would only really be useful in PvP or big fights. They added the "casts so efficiently" but to give you an alternative.

Also, you have to keep in mind that, as we've said. No matter your spec your role won't change. All you can affect is how you do your role and which aspects of your role you'd like to improve upon. And as you've stated many times Mythic has said that healers will have a partial offensive role that assists their healing. A specialization in damage won't be counter productive to your healing, rather it will just allow you to deal more damage while you build up your mechanic and possibly give you some offensive options with your mechanic. If I spec healing, I'll have bigger and better heals than you and some special healing options you don't have. But I'll still build my mechanic through destructive spells and drains. If you spec destructive magic you'll still heal (trust me, the heals will be useful still), but you will do noticeably more damage than me (30% i think they said) and have more options for how you build that mechanic. I might be stuck with a couple of normal DDs or DoTs while you might get an AoE, knockbacks, ect.

I never said that a spec in destructive magic would make you heal better, or at least I didn't intend to. What I said was that you choose to increase the damage you do while you build up your mechanic for healing purposes. You will still have the tools you need to heal, and you will still build up your mechanic and heal just like the Support specced Archmage. The only difference is that while his heals are better, your damage is better. It's a matter of flavor and personal choice. Not a completely role altering decision.

[Dastion]

Also, having just looked at the Smite Cleric's line of abilities, I have to say that I really hope you didn't play one and think the spec changed you into a DPS. This line is amazing for a PvP healer. It gives you the ability to deal damage AND heal at the same time, it gives you a PBAE mez, improves the effectiveness of your stun, and even gives you a nifty AoE to use when healing isn't needed. If you remember keep sieges then you know that a healer's role tends to be quite boring. Being able to focus fire with the casters a bit and then resurrect or toss them some heals afterwards is always nice. You even get a snare!

Base Smite: http://www.camelotherald.com/spells/line.php?c=3&line=11
Smite Spec Tree: http://www.camelotherald.com/spells/line.php?c=3&line=12

PvP healers probably have one of the highest learning curves. When I played DAoC I played a Druid. I believe my spec was somewhere around 36 Nature, 33 Regrowth, and 22 Nurture. Yes, I had most of my points in the offensive spec. No, I didn't heal as well as those that went really high into Regrowth, no i didn't buff the best. However, I could buff every stat and had every type of heal for every situation, my lower rank buffs also meant I could buff an entire group, while high nurture spec used up too much concentration. Spread heals were lazy healing anyhow and inefficient, but useful in an emergency. The biggest thing was that I was more survivable. I could send my pet after a caster to keep them interrupted, I could AoE root(casted or instant) a group of enemies that suddenly appeared, instant root the rogue that snuck up on me, ect. I even had a decent dot for putting the hurt on people during seiges and keeping rogues from hiding. Being offensive spec made me a better healer than most, the only time a full Regrowth spec did better than me was in a venting guild group where they knew how to protect the healer, and it had to be a damn good group and a good healer to have the extra healing counter my utility and survival.

So you see, Mythic's damage specs do NOT change the role of the class, they simply enhance how you perform your role in the way you choose.

[OutOfContext]

No, Archmages in the TT actually had a spell called "Drain Magic", it wasn't a destructive spell and it's extremely iconic to the Archmage.

I know, I was under the impression they weren't implementing it as an ability in itself though. Not sure where I read/saw that, could've just been on these boards. It's not really an issue to me though, either way seems logical, and both in one perhaps more so.

Also, you have to keep in mind that, as we've said. No matter your spec your role won't change.

And I don't think I was ever disagreeing with that. The problem is that all of the support classes stick two roles together, and everyone seems to mostly ignore one in favor of the other. It's like they're saying, "Well, high utility and medium offense is ok, but high offense and medium utility is OUT OF THE QUESTION!"

I never said that a spec in destructive magic would make you heal better, or at least I didn't intend to. What I said was that you choose to increase the damage you do while you build up your mechanic for healing purposes.

Say this as many times as you want, until I see even a tiny amount of actual evidence that the special mechanic is never used for attacks, I'm going to listen to the official sources that say it is. The tally, in case you're not keeping track: 1 flat out states it is (career video), 1 strongly implies it (description page), and... 0 say it isn't, unless you count not mentioning it, which is the weakest sort of contradiction possible, and those sources aren't even on the main site. Unless you're privy to some information that the public isn't, I don't see why you're so stuck on that.

That paragraph makes me sounds kind of exasperated, no? There's a reason for that, and it's not really about this game, it's about the general gamer population's idea of "balance", this just kind of pokes that nerve. I am tired of seeing classes that are horrifically weak because someone thought that "oh, well, this guy has a little bit of healing, we gotta make sure their damage is mostly useless to compensate." You can't just add all of a character's abilities together and call that their "usefulness number" or whatever, but unfortunately many see it that way. If they give an Archmage an option to increase their damage, but not at all close to the level of a DPS class (and if they can't use their specialty for that, it won't be), while also leaving their healing ability way behind a healer archmage (and yes, 30% is way behind in MMO terms), that spec will be the one no one ever plays, or is laughed at for doing so. No one will care that it can do more damage than the other healers, since dps classes do it better. The healing will be left to the ones specialized in it, and no one wants a sub-par damage class, even if it can heal a bit. So, there you go, that's why I'm so easily provoked on that subject. Sorry if I'm a bit irritable.

EDIT: I see you got another post in while I was typing this one, damn, I must be tired. DAoC was a long time ago for me, and I never actually played a Smite cleric, just going off of what I remember from players I knew (I knew their damage didn't compare with a wizard, partly because they had much better armor). But, not completely change the class? A heal-specced cleric did, um... what exactly... heal? Something else maybe, I don't remember? Smite spec gave them a lot more options, entirely in terms of offense. Yeah, they could still use their base heals, no, they weren't nearly as effective at that as a spec that had that as their primary function. So, yes, it DID completely change their role. It's highly likely that Mythic will give similar sorts of usefulness to multi-spec players as they did in DAoC, players who can handle it can do fun things. I'm not even getting into the balance of that kind of thing, since it gets really damn complicated when you have to factor in a much larger amount of player ability than you do with single functions.

[The Penguin Hunter]

Look i'll say this the Archmage is a support class, and for balance support has surviability and armor.

ALl support careirs get medium armor and tanks get heavy the melee DPSers are left with light and range dps with very leight armor.

Now ask yourself if an archmage could do as much dmg as a bright wizard and yet also be in more armor AND heal themselves?

How is this logical?

[Mortissia]

Look i'll say this the Archmage is a support class, and for balance support has surviability and armor.

ALl support careirs get medium armor and tanks get heavy the melee DPSers are left with light and range dps with very leight armor.

Now ask yourself if an archmage could do as much dmg as a bright wizard and yet also be in more armor AND heal themselves?

How is this logical?

I've got no idea how this is all going to really work out BUT in DAoC a Smite Cleric could probably spec out more damage and still have some healing (not great healing mind you) ability than the damage from ... say a support specced Eldritch (nuker class). Of course a damage specced Eldritch is always going to out damage a Cleric no matter what but in DAoC it WAS possible. Now that I think of it a Mind specced Mentalist (nuker class) would be totally inferior to a Smite Cleric for damage. It just depends on what the game allows you to do.

Will the Archmage have the ability to spec for good damage at the expense of support? /shrug. It is interesting that Smite Clerics were generally hated in their own realm and Pacification Healers (CC specced) were loved in their realm. I wonder how this will all turn out in WAR. DAoC was such a wonderful game for vastly different specs within the same class. I hope WAR turns out similarly. Balance was always a pita issue, though.

[Dastion]

I think you missed a key point about the old Smite Cleric's abilities. Smite spec was not entirely in terms of offense. Two of his abilities in Smite Spec were combination nuke + heals. One was a DD that healed everyone near the target, the other was a PBAE that damaged enemies and healed allies. He also gained a PBAE mez which is wonderful for when the combination skald/savage/berserker team focus fired you. By speccing into smite he gained a better offensive than he had healing, but to make up for it he had abilities which allowed him to perform his support role in different ways. No, he didn't heal as well as the full healing cleric, but he could survive better with a stun that is harder to resist, a snare, mez, ect. and even some damage dealing options that healed as well.

Also, I've said many times throughout this entire post that there will likely be some options that allow you to use your mechanic for offense. However, they will more than likely be specced for and not baseline. That's all just opinions at the moment and we really have no proof eitherway. I think that because they said, "Drained magic will be used for healing" specifically that means just heals, you think that because they didn't say, "Will not be used for damage" and various ways of interpretting the overview that they will. So there is little reason to argue over it and we should stick to what we do know. You yourself have come a long way throughout this thread, seeing as how your first posts talked about never using heals and now you seem to be of the frame of mind that you would.

[OutOfContext]

Look i'll say this the Archmage is a support class, and for balance support has surviability and armor.

ALl support careirs get medium armor and tanks get heavy the melee DPSers are left with light and range dps with very leight armor.

Now ask yourself if an archmage could do as much dmg as a bright wizard and yet also be in more armor AND heal themselves?

How is this logical?

Read the class description, they don't get medium armor. I don't know what line they draw between light/very light, it's kind of unclear, but the Archmage page specifically says its armor is low.

I think that because they said, "Drained magic will be used for healing" specifically that means just heals, you think that because they didn't say, "Will not be used for damage" and various ways of interpretting the overview that they will.

Also, you know, because they've said specifically that it will also be used for offense. But you for some reason choose to ignore that, citing "oh well he's probably lying." Stop acting like I'm making this up for my own sake, because you know that I am not.

And, wait. Never using heals? Point out where I said that, because I never had that idea. I know that it is a healer/support class, my stance was that it wouldn't HAVE TO heal if specced for damage. They give the class 20ish abilities in the base set (divided between core and the 3 masteries), and I know this, so why would I say it wouldn't be able to heal?
I simply said it wouldn't be a good idea for one with the equivalent of 0 points in it to rely on them over its other abilities, since it would be a bad use of resources. I never said there wouldn't be situations where it would help out. (Well, maybe I said that in the middle of one example, but in general I wasn't saying that.)

[wellsy]

So essentially, OoC, you're saying that you want the option not to heal.

Well, indeed that is fine. The Archmage will probably have other things they can do, such as casting shields from attacks, giving stat bonuses, etc, for their allies, and be able to become a very nasty thorn in the enemy's side (drain magic, destroying weapons and armour perhaps (not sure if that's in, but they are spells, specifically from the Lore of Metal, or Alchemy), etc).

You might not heal. But you will support (and yes, when I said range, I meant range of abilities - they know everything humans know about magic, and then about 50 times more. They are amongst THE BEST wizards in the world, second only to the Slann, so it's only right).

Still, I think heals might make their way into most of the spells used on allies (though for a very small percentage and perhaps over time as well), in the same way that I think a drain magic will make it into more offensive spells (again, though, it would not be as effective as casting a proper drain magic). The latter fits in with the class description as posted, as a kind of feedback from the spell's casting.

[The Penguin Hunter]

OutOfContext You obviously havn't seen the podcast then about the archtypes, all support classes are in medium armor, if you try to argue that with me you're only going to succeed in showing your ignorance of the classes

And on the page where it tlaks about the armor for the Archmage, it's only talking about the look if you read the other pages you'd see that.

[OutOfContext]

OutOfContext You obviously havn't seen the podcast then about the archtypes, all support classes are in medium armor, if you try to argue that with me you're only going to succeed in showing your ignorance of the classes

And on the page where it tlaks about the armor for the Archmage, it's only talking about the look if you read the other pages you'd see that.

You suggesting the Archmage hides a suit of chainmail under their robes? Or that the Goblin Shaman's rags protect him as much as a Warrior Priest's leather/chain/etc? You are at least aware, I would hope, that the classes even within the same archetype do have differences? None of them do things exactly the same way as the others, it makes no sense to assume that a broad generalization like the one presented in that video applies 100% literally to every single class in the archetype. On average, yes, the support classes have moderate armor. No, they aren't going to make the Archmage's cloth just as effective as heavy leather/chain when the Bright Wizard's cloth is not. And if they did, 90% of the player base wouldn't shut up about it until it was fixed.

EDIT: Wow, I should probably wait to submit the post until I've put everything in. wellsy, you pretty much got it, except that I'm not saying that I want the option, I'm saying the option will be there. Small difference, but both are true anyway.

[Dastion]

Where did you say you wouldn't heal? I'll take that challenge :)

Now, say a damage-specced Archmage has a spell that deals 100 damage to a single target for 50 AP, and another spell that heals an ally for 40 health for 50 AP. They would be stupid to use that healing spell in combat

players who use the lesser abilities will be hurting themselves and their teammates, though obviously not directly

See :)

Also, I never said Paul was lying. But, the ONLY evidense that you have that you will be able to use the mechanic offensively is him saying getting hyped up and essentially going from one topic to the next saying, "you suck it in and then throw it out". Going by Paul's logic we will also have awesome staff attacks and the ability to cast any spell we choose. Also, it is something that we know the Goblin Shaman, the Archmage's reflection on the Destruction side could not do in the known beta versions, but as I've said before anything is possible with the addition of masteries. It's a bad point to keep argueing as I keep pointing out it's an unknown that could go any way, but really, don't expect a healer career to ever be able be on par DPS wise with an actual DPS class on a consistant basis. The second Archmages are capable of consistently being able to match a DPS career in damage is the second you can expect a nerf incoming, simply because, like it or not, they will still have the ability to heal and it HAS to be balanced around it.

You seem very prone to take the slightest exaggeration of method of interpreting a sentence to support anything, but when you are given direct contradictory facts you claim your vague and unlikely references supercede them. I show you where mythic flat out said that the mechanic would be used for healing, and you claim that since Paul made a reference to the possibility and they don't specifically say they "don't" then it must happen. I've admitted it's possible, yet you still argue because you seem to think it should be a certainty. It's not, yes you have good reason to believe in the possibility, but the current facts don't go that way. Now you argue that they will be light armored, when we have seen podcasts that specifically say healers will be medium armored (though I think they melee healers should be more heavily armored, honestly). Read the title of the bit about light armor in the overview, it says, "The Look of the Archmage", they will simply wear heavy magical robes. Elves don't need chainmail under their robes, they're freakin elves. For all we know they are capable of weaving powerful magical robes that when worn by someone proficient in magic can provide better protection.

Right now this is a long and simply pointless arguement. No one knows for certain who is right. We support the facts while you support your right to think otherwise... it's an endless circle that will never end. When the information to prove who is right is provided it's not as if you can gloat "I was right" on this forums, because Browncoat would be all over you with a lock and witty admonition in an instant :p

P.S. the last page or two we have done a great job of changing the attitudes and discussing. Yet it seems to be leading towards anger again, lets all just remember it's a game and discuss and be willing to admit when we might be wrong. If you pay attention I've been trying to see your side as much as possible in the past page or so, but I still have to give my honest opinion.

[OutOfContext]

(OutOfContext summons Wall of Text, a 1/98billion Wall-type creature)

Where did you say you wouldn't heal? I'll take that challenge :)

You must be proud of that. By the way, are you intentionally trying for irony by quoting me completely out of context? Because I did say, in the same post that I asked where I said that, that I remembered saying it in the context of a completely different argument. It was nothing about this game, it was about balance in general. So I used class names from warhammer, it wasn't about that.

...getting hyped up and essentially going from one topic to the next saying, "you suck it in and then throw it out"

Yes, and then spending more time talking about it.

when you are given direct contradictory facts you claim your vague and unlikely references supercede them

Uh, are you talking from my viewpoint here? Because there are no direct contradictory facts to what I am saying. None. Zero. Count them up on no hands. By the way, since you do have a small bit of a point there, maybe I should help you out. Yes, other sources talk about healing. No, they don't say anything about not doing anything else. Contradiction, by definition, requires that, so sorry, try again. Different people, describing the same thing, will pick out the bits they like best and emphasize them, or talk about what they want people to notice, etc., hardly anyone will give a complete description of something every time you ask. Since it's the "healer" class, logically they're going to talk about that more often than anything else it might do, at least when they're trying to give a general idea of the class rather than in-depth.

Now you argue that they will be light armored, when we have seen podcasts that specifically say healers will be medium armored (though I think they melee healers should be more heavily armored, honestly). Read the title of the bit about light armor in the overview, it says, "The Look of the Archmage", they will simply wear heavy magical robes. Elves don't need chainmail under their robes, they're freakin elves. For all we know they are capable of weaving powerful magical robes that when worn by someone proficient in magic can provide better protection.

Possibly. But you have to consider the logic there- If casters can get cloth armor that is enchanted to be as effective as medium armor, then why can't other classes use armor that is enchanted to be more effective than their armor class normally is? Then everyone is armor +1 or whatever, and it's all back to the same balance. Or if you just think elves do it, then all elf classes get better armor by default. Consider how other races would like that. Maybe they'll get cloth armor and some self-only armor buffs or something, I remember mages having things like that in a lot of other games. Melee healers would be at a big disadvantage if theirs wasn't better, though, and since they most definitely are smart enough to consider that, I doubt that the support classes will all have equivalent armor.

Right now this is a long and simply pointless arguement. No one knows for certain who is right. We support the facts while you support your right to think otherwise...

No, you support part of the facts while I am looking at all of them. Just because you don't think certain things should carry as much weight doesn't mean they don't, that isn't your decision. Not mine either, which is why I'm not telling you anything you're referencing is wrong, just questioning your interpretation of it. And also, once it's out, if I happen to be wrong, no biggie. If I'm right, again, no big deal. If I had any other games to play/argue about/drool over I wouldn't even be here in the first place.

Oh, and one last thing.

The second Archmages are capable of consistently being able to match a DPS career in damage is the second you can expect a nerf incoming, simply because, like it or not, they will still have the ability to heal and it HAS to be balanced around it.

No, no, and again, no. Your concept of balance is far too narrowly defined, though unfortunately it's the prevailing one at the moment. If two classes have the same (or similar) primary function, and different supplementary functions, it doesn't matter at all what the second part is, as long as there's not a large gap in how often they'll be useful. One can heal, another can AE a bit, another can snare enemies etc., while all having the same primary purpose of direct damage, they are all equal (given the right balance between the numbers, anyway). Healing doesn't automatically make a class better. If they're only marginally useful as a backup in dire circumstances (the tank is being overpowered and the main healer can't quite keep up), that doesn't have any bearing on any other situations. Does the one that can AE become overpowered because if enemies are grouped together it can blast the crap out of them? In that situation, that player's secondary function will be more useful. Does the one that can snare become overpowered because it can escape from a bad situation? In that situation, that player is more useful, etc. Healing as a secondary function is no different than any other, given proper balancing.

[Seabee]

If someone can dps as well as the dps classes and heal whilst the dps classes cannot you can seriously expect a lot of people to choose to play the healer rather than a dps class.

Now as you say someone might have the same single target damage as a dps class but no ae so the dps class have an advantage but then you clearly do not have the same dps.

The healers should have enough dps to make it worth while attacking but dps classes should be higher.

[OutOfContext]

If someone can dps as well as the dps classes and heal whilst the dps classes cannot you can seriously expect a lot of people to choose to play the healer rather than a dps class.

Now as you say someone might have the same single target damage as a dps class but no ae so the dps class have an advantage but then you clearly do not have the same dps.

The healers should have enough dps to make it worth while attacking but dps classes should be higher.

So you think classes should have equally useful secondary purposes but one should for some incomprehensible reason be better at the primary purpose? No, that's not balance. Note- I'm not referring to "primary" and "secondary" in terms of game mechanics, more as a logical grouping. A Ranged DPS class specializing in single target damage has the primary purpose of... single target damage. Secondary being whatever other capabilities they have, AE etc. If, hypothetically, the support class can mimic that DPS class in that one single aspect, i.e. single target damage, their primary purpose becomes that, while the secondary remains healing. Obviously the DPS increases for the first class when the situation allows for it, the second one doesn't have that choice, hence the alternate functionality. (I see you get that point already, since I basically just repeated your second line, but I wanted you to see that that was what I was saying in the first place. I wasn't talking "overall" DPS, just one aspect of it.) Their secondary purposes are different, yes, but one is not inherently "better" than the other. That is not how balance works.

[Seabee]

Yes balance I want to be as damaging as you and then also heal (which actually is described as a healers primary focus not secondary). You can talk it however you like but its unlikely. If it does other classes are going to have some absolutely awesome secondary abilities.

In pvp the advantage of much better ae damage is actually a big advantage. (well heh it was in DAOC but then you could hit 100s of people with ae damage). I am not even arguing that the damage should be balanced that way but at least you could see an advantage.

[OutOfContext]

Yes balance I want to be as damaging as you and then also heal (which actually is described as a healers primary focus not secondary).

Um... read my post again, specifically the part about matching one aspect of damage rather than all of it. And then, just for fun, go take a look at the mastery system. And while you're at it, go find something that says the support class is always going to be a healer. I agree that healing is a healer's primary purpose. I disagree that that class will always fit the definition of "healer". It's a hybrid healer/offense. With three mastery paths to choose from, it's highly likely that one of them will focus on improving the offensive aspect. Doing so would leave healing behind, making it secondary rather than primary. Sure, it'll still be there as an option, no, it's not going to be useful all the time, since there will be others that do it better.

[Seabee]

I went through smite clerics (I played hibs mainly as a druid a healbot to you) they got a tonne of grief but where highly effective for damage (generally though albion was getting rolled at the time because they needed healers). I also played a priest in wow (discipline mainly) and eventually the developers gave shadow priests a pve purpose other than soloing but with game content designed for having a healer then people will want you to heal.

I really do hope the game content is better designed but thats the issue really. If you need healers the pressure will be on healers to heal. At least here the hope is its not just healing because you are not using the same mana bar to heal and damage.

[Dastion]

When you're figuring in potential DPS AEs do come into the equation. So therefore even if the Archmage could match the bright wizard in single target DPS (which is never going to happen consistantly, possibly if the Archmage gets a string of crits and the Brightwizard gets none) the Bright wizard would still have higher DPS simply because of his ability to AoE. With little CC and no worry about "aggro" in pvp Ranged DPS careers will be able to AoE to their hearts content, so it's a moot point.

I agree that "secondary" as you call it, functions are balanced different and it is possible for someone who can heal to come close to a R.DPS in some ways, but not all. While the Archmage might be able to throw out a hurting in single target he won't have near as many tools as a R.DPS who might have roots, stuns, various AoEs, or even just more staying power. An Archmage who goes all out nuking will do very respectable damage, I have no doubt of that. But the key is to balance support and damage if you want to have staying power, which is one of the many reasons I believe that a special mechanic based nuke is only possible in the mastery line and not mainstay, since the entire description about balancing the two out would be pointless if you could nuke, nuke, nuke, Big Nuke, nuke nuke, ect and keep building your mechanic without ever mixing in any healing. I simply think it's more likely that you can choose to spend your AP to DPS or Drain and thereby build up your special mechanic to heal with, much as the Goblin Shaman does. And again, it's possible the Mastery Destruction line has some huge nuke that requires a high amount of the special mechanic. Hopefully though, we'd see some mixed abilities like the Smite Cleric had.

I think one of the big things we forget is that it's too easy to think in terms of just healbotting or just DPSing, rather than efficiently weaving magic to do both as the career overview seems to imply. You juggle the two to provide maximum efficiency, by time you build up your special mechanic through DPS you are likely low on AP anyhow, so you use the mechanic to do some healing and possibly throw out some Drains (if they are still in, it's a questionable thing), and by time you've used it up and helped those who need it you have regained enough AP to start it over.

[Dastion]

I really do hope the game content is better designed but thats the issue really. If you need healers the pressure will be on healers to heal. At least here the hope is its not just healing because you are not using the same mana bar to heal and damage.

I really hope that the special mechanic is an actual second bar rather than the silly dot combo point system that nearly every career has. I'd like the feeling of using my AP for destruction and drain spells in order to build up a magical reserve for the big spells. My main fear for this class is that it'll just be a copy of the Goblin Shaman and they won't actually have the Drain Magic they promised and stick with just the whole "you cast spells efficiently and save magic!" concept from the career overview.

[The Penguin Hunter]

You suggesting the Archmage hides a suit of chainmail under their robes? Or that the Goblin Shaman's rags protect him as much as a Warrior Priest's leather/chain/etc? You are at least aware, I would hope, that the classes even within the same archetype do have differences? None of them do things exactly the same way as the others, it makes no sense to assume that a broad generalization like the one presented in that video applies 100% literally to every single class in the archetype. On average, yes, the support classes have moderate armor. No, they aren't going to make the Archmage's cloth just as effective as heavy leather/chain when the Bright Wizard's cloth is not. And if they did, 90% of the player base wouldn't shut up about it until it was fixed.

EDIT: Wow, I should probably wait to submit the post until I've put everything in. wellsy, you pretty much got it, except that I'm not saying that I want the option, I'm saying the option will be there. Small difference, but both are true anyway.


My god, you're just not getting it even though you've seen the video?

It's not worth discussing this with him, he wont accept proof even when it's infront of him My point still stands, due to I have proof, you don't, you have nothing to invalidate my claim and my proof to go with my claim.

Yes you can have a class look what ever they want but when they say the healer (support) archtype is in medium armor that means all support (healer) classes. How moranic can you possibly be?


You do realize that the only armor a warrior priest wears is the chest peice right, underneath is robes, he has no leg or arm armor just chest piece and shoulders.

You also realize that you can make something look like what ever you want but still give it a different armor rating in a game right?

Your logic is flawed and show is your post, I am done and good day.

[wellsy]

Indeed Dastion is right OoC. Though I said earlier that you might not have to cast heals, you will still have to balance the offensive spells and defensive ones in order to be most effective as an Archmage. Heals are a part of that balance. Certainly, you can concentrate more on ensuring that your heals or DPS are better through the mastery system, but that is simply tailoring it more to suit your playstyle.

At the end of the day, the Archmage is still the Archmage, and they will have to find some kind of balance between offense and defense.

And Dastion - I think that the Drain Magic spell will be in. I also believe that it will also be built in as part of the feedback mechanic as well (doing damage (and not just to the HP bar) AND draining your enemy's spell reserve). I think that a similar mechanic will work with positive buffs for allies - some kind of regeneration or minor heal (not too much HP gets healed, but certainly some of it does).

[Mugato Cato]

Actually Penguin Hunter if you read the description of looks on the Warhammer site, it states the following for each healer type :-

Disciple of Khaine Look
Wickedly barbed armors made of heavy leather and steel
High collared gorgets with partial facial masks
Wields twin ritual blades, or carries a single blade and ritual chalice


The Shaman Look
Lightly armored in tattered goblin robes (with critters and bits stuck on)
Carries an elaborate shaman’s staff (with more critters and nastier bits)
Kitted out with shamanistic trappings (Still more critters and bits)


Zealot Look
Essentially unarmored, in heavy robes and other ritual vestments and regalia
Wields sacrificial daggers and other wicked instruments of pain.
Carries many talismans, fetishes, and other occult paraphernalia about his person

Rune Priest Look
Well armored in medium, rune-inscribed armor
Wields an ornately carved rune staff
Marks all his equipment with runes of power and protection

The Warrior Priest Look
Moderately armored with breast plate worn over a long robe and vestments of faith
Wields a powerful war hammer or great hammer in the finest traditions of his patron deity
Ornamented with symbols, books, regalia, and various other articles of faith

The Look of the Archmage
Ornate embroidered robes with high collars and large billowing sleeves
Graceful circlets and ornate headdresses engraved with powerful runes of protection.
Wields elegantly crafted staves and wands encrusted in gems and arcane Elven runes

So no not all healer/support Archtypes wear medium armour despite what it may say in the podcast

[Beren]

Anyone who thinks they're going to roll an Archmage and not heal, because they're spec'd for damage... is not going to last more than two minutes in a competent group.

Shadow Warriors, Bright Wizards, and Engineers are going to destroy your damage, even when fully damage spec'd (if this even exists exclusively apart from healing, which I don't think it will - all the career masteries are going to enhance your role). You bring something very unique and very powerful to your group... HEALING. That is the only reason you'll be in the group.

And people shouldn't slavishly hold to that super old podcast. All the healing classes WILL NOT be in the same level of armor. Disciples/Warrior Priests will DEFINITELY have more than the others. I can't believe some people think they're going to be ranged healerd/damage dealers in possibly something near plate armor. Runepriests should be next in line. I don't think Zealots/Achmages/Shamans are going to have a great deal of armor.

[OutOfContext]

My god, you're just not getting it even though you've seen the video?

Getting what exactly? That you can just declare yourself the winner of an argument and nothing else matters? Yes, it's possible to code the game any way they want, they could make nearly naked witch elves have a higher armor rating than a knight, but that (probably) isn't going to happen. If you acknowledge that just because they "can" do it doesn't mean they "will" do it, you might have some credibility behind your words. In every MMO out there (that I am aware of), the LOOK of the class is DIRECTLY linked to the effectiveness of their armor. Also, melee players need to have better armor/avoidance than ranged players, and since some of the support classes are ranged and some melee, identical armor would be either too much of an advantage for the ranged, or too much of a weakness for the melee. Take what you want out of that video, the fact is, if they do it that way, balance between the support classes will be ed. I'm not saying they can't do whatever they want.

When you're figuring in potential DPS AEs do come into the equation. So therefore even if the Archmage could match the bright wizard in single target DPS (which is never going to happen consistantly, possibly if the Archmage gets a string of crits and the Brightwizard gets none) the Bright wizard would still have higher DPS simply because of his ability to AoE.

Yes, I acknowledged that. I am assuming that the bright wizard (and other ranged dps classes) will have the choice of specializing in single target, area, etc. (I'm getting that from these boards and not official infomation though, if that's been contradicted I'm unaware of it), and I'm saying having a ranged support class be able to mimic one of those (not all of them) wouldn't be a problem, reason being just as you said, it wouldn't be able to match in situations other than that specific one. But, if it couldn't match it even in that way, as you seem to think is some kind of blasphemy and won't even consider the possibility, it would be ridiculously weak.

the key is to balance support and damage if you want to have staying power, which is one of the many reasons I believe that a special mechanic based nuke is only possible in the mastery line and not mainstay, since the entire description about balancing the two out would be pointless if you could nuke, nuke, nuke, Big Nuke, nuke nuke, ect and keep building your mechanic without ever mixing in any healing.

Which is exactly what a player specialized in damage would do. Their baseline damage abilities (core, non mastery related) are described as being only moderate in effectiveness, to build up the special bar, so it's not that big of a deal if they can alternate between fairly weak damage and strong damage, they would just have to average out to a reasonable number.

Also, once again, the class decription doesn't say "balance offense and defense". It says "balance the powers they wield", as in, less powerful vs. more powerful, since it says in the very next sentence how using only powerful abilities (either healing OR damage) would wear out the Archmage much faster. Which also implies that the powerful abilites could be used even without the special mechanic, but will be much more draining than if they saved up their power for them. Which makes sense- the Archmage wouldn't say "wait, I can't cast that spell yet, I need to screw around for a bit first!" Maybe they'll simply have a high AP cost, but will draw mana instead if it's there to be used.

[OutOfContext]

Anyone who thinks they're going to roll an Archmage and not heal, because they're spec'd for damage... is not going to last more than two minutes in a competent group.

And you know this, because you've seen the skill trees, stats, numbers etc for every class in the game. K.

If the option exists, it won't be that weak. If it doesn't exist, then you'd be right, but you don't know that it doesn't, and there's strong evidence that it does.

[blueoblivion1]

The main thing that I have heard about the archmage is that they are going to dps to gain mana then get a beefed up heal. with that in mind if you only dps no matter what spec you have you will not be playing to your full potental. it is the same with just healing. I think it is safe to say that archmages will be nuking and healing.

[OutOfContext]

The main thing that I have heard about the archmage is that they are going to dps to gain mana then get a beefed up heal. with that in mind if you only dps no matter what spec you have you will not be playing to your full potental. it is the same with just healing. I think it is safe to say that archmages will be nuking and healing.

Really? I haven't heard that before.

.......

[Mortissia]

The main thing that I have heard about the archmage is that they are going to dps to gain mana then get a beefed up heal. with that in mind if you only dps no matter what spec you have you will not be playing to your full potental. it is the same with just healing. I think it is safe to say that archmages will be nuking and healing.

The main thing is that we just don't know what the possibilities are for Archmage (at least most of us don't). I don't know if any of the class designers are the same or not but in DAoC all of the healers could specialize for damage and be darn good at it. Many players chose this option early in the game's life. In later years I think they became few and far between except for the Midgard Healer which remained a popular CC oriented class.

A damage oriented Archmage is (as far as I know) still a valid "speculation". The DAoC healing classes even when they specced for damage did less damage than the dedicated damage classes but they still maitained at least some basic healing ability which made the damage spec valid to some degree. People will play these "oddball" specs too ... especially early in WAR's life cycle. Later they may prove less effective because of perception or actuallity or even peer preasure.

[Dastion]

Mugato Cato, I think you missed the point :) All of those little things reference the "look" not the armor. In DAoC the "Look" of the Valewalker was of a robed caster wielding a scythe. But he was actually very well armored because of his buffs that made him only slightly below the tanks. Similarly, healers in WAR are supposed to be able to take some hits. Glass cannon healers really aren't popular.

However, I honestly do think that Warrior Priests and Disciples should have better armor than ranged healers. Honestly it should go WP/Discple -> Zealot/Runepriest -> Archmage/Shaman in terms of armor, because of how "close" each career actually has to be. But even the Archmage is likely to be better armored than the Bright Wizard or Sorceress.

[Mugato Cato]

Maybe I did miss the point, however I would differentiate armour worn too buffs that you can apply to yourself or others that increases it as these may be earned due to progression and not initially available.

Having said that I agree with you that there will more than likely be a difference overall between the melee and ranged healer/support in basic armour values.

[FoulPet]

I think this video is very helpful: http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/10625
- Archmages cast spells that cast spells that damage your opponent, then drain Magic/Life (not health) to help your friends.
- Archmages can nuke and heal without tapping first, it's just that they can do stuff even better when they do tap.
- Archmages have some of the best utility magic. Can do lots of stuff, where other casters do one thing.

Here's the problem with it not being AP: morale would make the Archmage incapable of attacking someone at the outset of combat who hadn't built up morale yet, and not every career has a special bar - Black Orks don't, Runepriests don't, Engineers don't, Sguig Herders don't, Marauders don't (that we know of), Zealots don't, etc.

Nice information and great legs in that video.

[nighthawk999]

It does appear that the Archmage most closely mirrors the Shaman in style of play, going to be interesting, thoroughly looking forward to it.

As for all the conjecture and hyperbole on here the proof is in the playing, if you're not playing the class then it's all guess work really :)