Strongest mages reduced to Healbots

[DaddysGirl]

I dont know about you guys, but I was really upset at the announcement of Archmage as the High Elf healer and not the ranged DPS.

High Elf Archmage
Archtype: Healer/Nuker
- Most powerful magic users
- Master of all Winds of Magic

Core mechanic: Drain Magic
- Draws energy from target
- Uses drained energy to heal


The Masters of all Winds of Magic will be HEALERS... with a small GIMMICK to differentiate them from the other healbots.

Im really starting to hate Mythic's approach to healing. I thought there would be no healbots but as it turned out, the opposite is happening.

Just take a look at people's impressions/vids of Runepriests and Warrior priests if you dont believe me. The only decent healing class so far appears to be the Gobbo Shaman.

Now some of the most powerful mages in Warhammer will be reduced to healers when they should be dishing out the damage... ugh.:rolleyes:

[Thunder_Head]

The Masters of all Winds of Magic will be HEALERS... with a small GIMMICK to differentiate them from the other healbots.


Well, I'm quite sure they have their own reasons for not choosing other classes...but yeah, I'd really like to know them.

Im really starting to hate Mythic's approach to healing. I thought there would be no healbots but as it turned out, the opposite is happening.

Just take a look at people's impressions/vids of Runepriests and Warrior priests if you dont believe me. The only decent healing class so far appears to be the Gobbo Shaman.


A lot of the time, the destruction side seems to be paying for it. T_T

[Grrblt]

Archmages will be dishing out damage. And healing. Didn't you read that play testing impression thing of a Chaos Magus who thought he was kicking , but then found out that the group's Shaman and Zealot had both done twice as much damage as him?

These dudes nuke more than they heal. Just like all the other healing classes are meant to do.

[abr4]

I'm kinda afraid they'll do the same to the DE Sorceress.

[Thunder_Head]

Archmages will be dishing out damage. And healing. Didn't you read that play testing impression thing of a Chaos Magus who thought he was kicking , but then found out that the group's Shaman and Zealot had both done twice as much damage as him?

These dudes nuke more than they heal. Just like all the other healing classes are meant to do.

Are you referring to the player who tested at Gencon? That was a 3 team of Shaman/Zealot/Black Orc. Wouldn't it be natural?

[Krulltak]

Sweet Odin, you people are so bloody ignorant.

First of all, THERE ARE NO DAMNED HEALBOTS IN WAR. NO ONE IS A FREAKING HEAL BOT. If the class heals, HE WILL BE DOING IT ONLY 50% of the TIME, the rest is attacking.


From what I interpret it, the Archmage will attack and damage enemies, and the more damage he does to them, the more powerful his heals become.

Also, while by the FLUFF/LORe he may be the strongest mage (not really though, a Tzeentchian mage would kick his ), THIS IS AN RPG, AN MMORPG, AND THE CLASSES MUST BE BALANCED ACCORDING SO, GET THAT INTO YOUR THICK HEADS.

[Gleipnir]

Sorry but that didnt make any sense. Archmages are healbots? They sound more like the wow shadowpriest to me.. A damage/heal hybrid. The very fact that they need to draw energy from a target in order to heal is the opposite of what a healbot does.

And yeah some people might be frustrated that the archmage class turned out to be a healer.. But fluffwise, what other class would be remotely suitable?

Gleipnir

[Ryuuku]

Oh guys look he can heal, he must be a healbot. Let's make a thread complaining about something that we know nothing about.

[Garthilk]

Thread has definitely gotten off to a bad start. Lets try and be constructive. Overlook other peoples obvious inadequacies and focus on the topic.

[VeriusCarth]

The way you phrase it, the fact that a person can heal instantly makes them a healbot.

Do you want to die, or something?


Blast. Now I've got to change my post:

Erm. Well. I wasn't prepared for this.

So, you can't really say if they'll be able to do only meager damage as compared to heals until they're play tested, thus far, they've only been announced, so... give it a while. Obviously, you're going to need a class who can heal, and Mages are the most likely choice in this case, else... who'd do the healing if they were Ranged DPS? Other mages? It just wouldn't make sense, really.

Besides, if they include the Shadow Warrior, it means that they wanted the Ranged DPS class to have a bow, and picked him partly because it'd make a lot of sense, seeing how the Dark Elves are invading Ulthuan.

[Grrblt]

Are you referring to the player who tested at Gencon? That was a 3 team of Shaman/Zealot/Black Orc. Wouldn't it be natural?

Oh it might have been a blorc. But I don't see it anymore natural any way; why would "healbots" do significantly more damage than a melee tank? They aren't healbots, that's why.

[Grimfell Gromgear]

Having heals, does not make you a healbot.

A healbot does nothing but heal.

Since by the description alone, the Archmage drains an enemy to heal, he's not a healbot even if he never nuked. Though, since he is also listed as a Nuker... I'm going to guess he'll be nuking as well.

[Estebar]

I'm getting tired of morons assuming that being the "strongest mage" means that you walk around throwing the biggest nukeballs at the enemy.

If you think that the best use of magic involves going "pew pew pew" with zappy-zappy-boom-boom spells, go be a Bright Wizard, seeing as that's all you're good for.

Better yet, avoid this game entirely and go become a Super-Saiyan. They've got some nice big lasers for you over there.

[Axxar]

Aren't High Elf mages supposed to be masters of all kinds of magic? Wouldn't it seem odd if they couldn't heal then?

[VeriusCarth]

I'm getting tired of morons assuming that being the "strongest mage" means that you walk around throwing the biggest nukeballs at the enemy.

If you think that the best use of magic involves going "pew pew pew" with zappy-zappy-boom-boom spells, go be a Bright Wizard, seeing as that's all you're good for.

Better yet, avoid this game entirely and go become a Super-Saiyan. They've got some nice big lasers for you over there.

I'm so glad you came to our side. :)

[Vaeronthar]

I have no idea how Krulltak and Estabar managed to say all of that clearly and composedly. I just tried to, and it wound up... this:

GARH! BLARG! ARCHMAGES DOES EVERYTHING! PURE NUKE ISThE LAME!

But that was all I could write on the subject, so it's what I'm sticking to.

[DaddysGirl]

Sweet Odin, you people are so bloody ignorant.

First of all, THERE ARE NO DAMNED HEALBOTS IN WAR. NO ONE IS A FREAKING HEAL BOT. If the class heals, HE WILL BE DOING IT ONLY 50% of the TIME, the rest is attacking.


From what I interpret it, the Archmage will attack and damage enemies, and the more damage he does to them, the more powerful his heals become.

Also, while by the FLUFF/LORe he may be the strongest mage (not really though, a Tzeentchian mage would kick his ), THIS IS AN RPG, AN MMORPG, AND THE CLASSES MUST BE BALANCED ACCORDING SO, GET THAT INTO YOUR THICK HEADS.

I see you have placed a veil of denial around youself, so I dont know what to tell you except that there will obviously be healbots. Have you seen the Runepriest vids AT ALL? Sure he can spend half his time dealing damage (with ONE spell that I saw, the lightning bolt one), but if he was to heal 100% of the time, he would be that much more effective. And this shows the small flaw in War's pvp system, that healing is very IMPORTANT. So why spend time at all dealing pathetic damage when you can simply heal ?

The Archmage's damage spells will be petty at BEST; when they should be more along the lines of omGPEWPEWPEW!!!11 That was my main complaint, and not about Healbots, because they will be a natural part of any game.

[Krulltak]

Ignorant Ranting.


Right...because that Runepriest video is an exact representation of the game come launch, and not actually just a Beta video where the game has not been properly balanced yet.

[Vaeronthar]

Alright, I have an idea. DaddysGirl, I'm going to give you a simple, short sentence full of pure fact. It should be fairly easy to comprehend, but even if you can't, I want you to try harder until you do get it.

The more damage you deal, the more effective your healing is.

[Diabolix]

Seriously didn't you read

"Healer/NUKER"

Did it not occur to you that them nuking might heal you? spewing out magic that can drain their energy and I'm not talking about the lame wow life draining channelled spells, more like a mix between the warrior priest having to build up attacking but the archmage instead of melee uses magic :) so maybe a 3 bar career? the obvious health+action pools with an extra one that you fill up by doing damage.

[Loke]

Don't all classes have some ability to self heal? Does that make them self healbots?

[Grimfell Gromgear]

Don't all classes have some ability to self heal? Does that make them self healbots?

Yes, sadly...

WAR is the game where all classes are healbots. Woe unto us.

[Delolith]

Strongest mage...now that is something to ponder on before you pass judgement... Isn't versatility and survivability measures of strength and power? Ever tried to nuke down a mediocre healer/nuker (druid class) with your ohh so mighty nuker in other MMOs? In case you missed the outcome it was the poor druid was blasting the nuker's pretty badly while he was keeping himself alive meanwhile. I am derailing a bit...just wanted to say that more options show more versatility...and versatility is power by itself. Just the fact that you have access to more schools of magic is power itself.

Delolith

[Aaronthethird]

If you want to go PEW PEW!!! play a Bright Wizard, simple as that. From a game design stand point there are three things that I am sure played into them making the Archmage a support class:
1) Elves have to have a support class and there really isn't anyone else suited to this role.
2) They already have a magic nuker on the Order side in the Bright Wizard so it wouldn't make a lot of sense to make another class that fits this exact same role with the only difference being that they are a different race. They are trying to give people options for gameplay within an archetype not just simply having different appearances.
3) Order did not really have an equivenlent to the Goblin Shaman, in that they didn't have a ranged damage/healing hybrid. The Runepriest is much more defensively oriented, and the Warrior Priest is obviously a melee class, so, again, this gives a player for the Order more gameplay options by making the Archmage a support role.

I would suggest reserving judgement on this class until it is more fleshed out, as every report I have read from people who have played the Goblin Shaman has said that the Shaman did outstanding damage while still being able to provide plenty of support. I am optimistic that the Archmage will fall into a similar category, although I would be fine to give up a little damage for plenty of utility as I really enjoy the challenge of having to keep a lot of balls in the air.

[Thoden Firehammer]

I dont know about you guys, but I was really upset at the announcement of Archmage as the High Elf healer and not the ranged DPS.




Look, that TT unit was the only one avalable for the healing roll, it had to be a magic user, there was no other choice, you're also forgetting that THERE ARE NO HEAL BOTS
Yes that class has the heal ability, and you'll need to use it, but my best guess is that it will play similar to a goblin shaman, which have had great reviews

[DaddysGirl]

Look, that TT unit was the only one avalable for the healing roll, it had to be a magic user, there was no other choice, you're also forgetting that THERE ARE NO HEAL BOTS
Yes that class has the heal ability, and you'll need to use it, but my best guess is that it will play similar to a goblin shaman, which have had great reviews

First of all, thanks for all the replies that dont start out with insulting me for simply sharing my concerns (which many others also share, they simply dont/havent posted).

I realize the Elf Mages were the only class available to take on the healing burden, however, their spells and magic will become watered down to fit a healer's DPS, that was my original problem.

Secondly, no one seems to realize that healing will play a MAJOR role in pvp; and because of this, many healers will simply be pigeonholed into healing, thus becoming healbots. I know the Shaman is the exception, but what about the runepriest and others??

[Nayin]

Not that I agree or disagree with the OP but there are a few on this thread who seem to think that Archmages will in fact be able to DPS or even out DPS the pure DPS classes. This is of course a completely idiotic idea.

Back to the topic on hand now, I hope that as a class the archmage can shift its role in the game to one side or the other, through tactics/armor/etc. It would be nice to be able to be a Archmage more focused on DPSing, or one more focused on Healing. The 50/50 thing is interesting but I think it will be overused among the healing classes and it seems the devs have worked so hard for class diversity that they would not make a mistake that could be so easily avoided.

[Grrblt]

Secondly, no one seems to realize that healing will play a MAJOR role in pvp; and because of this, many healers will simply be pigeonholed into healing, thus becoming healbots. I know the Shaman is the exception, but what about the runepriest and others??

Shaman is not an exception. All healing classes [are supposed to] work something like that.

[Tiervexx]

Healer/Nuker fits their lore better then strait nuker like a bright wizard actually.

The High Elf Archmages know a huge range of magic, but don't have more brute force then other spell casters.

It actually goes against the nature of Archmages or elves in general to just throw the biggest BOOM possible rather then more cleaver use of magic.

[Pangscar]

no one seems to realize that healing will play a MAJOR role in pvp; and because of this, many healers will simply be pigeonholed into healing, thus becoming healbots. I know the Shaman is the exception, but what about the runepriest and others??

How do you know this? Oh right you dont. You're just assuming. You assume just becasue a class has the ability to heal that they will do nothing but heal. You're right healing will have a major role in WAR but so will DPSing, Tanking, debuffing, etc, etc. All we can go by is what Mythic has told us and showed us. So based on that and using common sense(which seems to have taken a vaction here) the ONLY thing that can be assumed is that there will be NO healbots in this game. If there is Mythic will have lied to us and the game will fail.

How anyone in their right mind can look at the mechanics of the suport classes and think they even have the possibilty of becoming healbots is beyond comprehension.

[Grimfell Gromgear]

Honestly I wasn't even expecting to see Nuker.

I was expecting the Archmage to be a Healer/Harraser. With lots of annoying spells. It just seemed more 'Elfy' to me I guess to be very elegant and indirect than just nuking.

[cwang733t]

Whats the point of healing? Since there is no death penalty, unless you have objectives of not dying, why does it matter? Who will waste time trying to keep alive unless you know someone who heals for fun. Objectives from what Ive seen arent about not dying, its about taking and killing. Before we go off the heal bot deep end, I bet its going to be all about rez bots instead. Then, what are you going to do while you wait to rez people, well might as well and kill people...

[Grimfell Gromgear]

Whats the point of healing? Since there is no death penalty, unless you have objectives of not dying, why does it matter? Who will waste time trying to keep alive unless you know someone who heals for fun. Objectives from what Ive seen arent about not dying, its about taking and killing. Before we go off the heal bot deep end, I bet its going to be all about rez bots instead. Then, what are you going to do while you wait to rez people, well might as well and kill people...

Well, every time you die that's a kill for your opponents.

And kills get points.

So everytime you die, that's points for your opponents.

So dieing = bad.

[Vaeronthar]

Of course objectives are about killing. But you know what? If your enemy achieves their objective, you lose.

[Aaronthethird]

Whats the point of healing? Since there is no death penalty, unless you have objectives of not dying, why does it matter? Who will waste time trying to keep alive unless you know someone who heals for fun. Objectives from what Ive seen arent about not dying, its about taking and killing. Before we go off the heal bot deep end, I bet its going to be all about rez bots instead. Then, what are you going to do while you wait to rez people, well might as well and kill people...

Wow... just... wow... so much wrong with this statement... makes my head hurt...

Ok, first off, you do realize that deaths give your opponents victory points in both scenarios and open field PvP, right? So... yeah, you might not want to die too much because it directly effects who wins. I can't think of a much bigger incentive to not die short of xp loss, item damage and perma death. So yes, healers will be very important. That having been said, its also been noted by every person who has played the game so far that killing people is slow, which would indicate that you won't be forced to spam heals endlessly. That, along with some sort of damage=better heals mechanic leads me to believe that there will be plenty of opportunity to do things other than healbotting. I don't think its so much that you can't healbot if you really wanted to, I think its going to be more the case that the best support class players will be the ones who use the entire range of their arsenal, not just simply spam heals.

[Thoden Firehammer]

First of all, thanks for all the replies that dont start out with insulting me for simply sharing my concerns (which many others also share, they simply dont/havent posted).

I realize the Elf Mages were the only class available to take on the healing burden, however, their spells and magic will become watered down to fit a healer's DPS, that was my original problem.

Secondly, no one seems to realize that healing will play a MAJOR role in pvp; and because of this, many healers will simply be pigeonholed into healing, thus becoming healbots. I know the Shaman is the exception, but what about the runepriest and others??


many of these classes have mechanics to where they have to do dmg to get better heals off.

Even this class.

[Arcadox]

I'm definately going to be an archmage. The class excites me as much as WE's excite Xurre.

I hope they give us cool utility spells and decent damage nukes as well as interesting healing.

I look forward to the challenge of using a wide range of spells in order to maximize effiency. I hope healing doesn't become the only function of the Archmage. I'm hoping they are kind of like magus's with lower damage and the ability to heal. I'm most looking forward to seeing what the spells look like and how the drain magic gimmick works.

I do not believe they will devolve into a simple healbot, even classes like the runepriest have not become healbots imo.

[Ashnari Doomsong]

Arch. Mage.
Grand. I am so not playing this.

[Megad00mer]

Wow....No matter what Mythic does, someone will always have a problem with it.

Mythic has followed the lore when it comes to High Elf mages. If you play the TT you'll see that Archmages aren't about just blasting the enemy with offensive magic, they are about supporting the High Elf army around them as well. Mythic *gasp* stayed true to the IP when designing the Archmage. How dare they.

And for the record, High Elf mages are NOT the most powerful magic users in Warhammer. That title goes to the Slann Mage Priests of the Lizardmen. Frog Power!

[Aeldor]

The funny thing is, people are whining without ever actually looking at the differant lores of magic.

Lore of High Magic (The magic for which High Elves are most known) has TWO direct damage spells. That is out of six possible spells. The rest of the spells are much more subtle than other types of magic.
The point im trying to make is that some of you seem to have this impression that to be a powerful mage, one must throw fireballs/lightningballs at the enemy until they explode. That is not how a cultured elf does things. The Asur are a dying race. Keeping ones own alive is the most important thing an elf can do.

Plus...I hope they get Vauls Unmaking:P

[Arcadox]

Wow....No matter what Mythic does, someone will always have a problem with it.

Mythic has followed the lore when it comes to High Elf mages. If you play the TT you'll see that Archmages aren't about just blasting the enemy with offensive magic, they are about supporting the High Elf army around them as well. Mythic *gasp* stayed true to the IP when designing the Archmage. How dare they.

And for the record, High Elf mages are NOT the most powerful magic users in Warhammer. That title goes to the Slann Mage Priests of the Lizardmen. Frog Power!

You are definately correct, but with what we have in WAR itself, I think it's safe to say, at least lore-wise, that archmages are the most potent magic users out of all the classes (although sorceress's are quite powerful as well, and are, debatebly, better with offensive spells)

[Megad00mer]

You are definately correct, but with what we have in WAR itself, I think it's safe to say, at least lore-wise, that archmages are the most potent magic users out of all the classes (although sorceress's are quite powerful as well, and are, debatebly, better with offensive spells)

I can dig it.

[Jonas]

Developer: "Hey there Mr Archmage, you can cast ANY type of magic you like. Your spells can do anything, isn't that cool?"
Archmage: "Hey yeah, that's pretty cool. Hm, you know, that Dark Elf I just killed kinda cut me up a little. I think I'll heal myself then, since I can cast ANY type of magic I like."
Developer: "Um, well.. y'see.. you can't actually cast healing spells. See, you have to go talk to Mrs Priestess of Isha over there to do that."
Archmage: "... but you said that my spells can do anything..."
Developer: "Uh yeah. Anything except healing; that would be overpowered."
Archmage: "Right."

Logic ftw.

[Kydrin]

The funny thing is, people are whining without ever actually looking at the differant lores of magic.

Lore of High Magic (The magic for which High Elves are most known) has TWO direct damage spells. That is out of six possible spells. The rest of the spells are much more subtle than other types of magic.
The point im trying to make is that some of you seem to have this impression that to be a powerful mage, one must throw fireballs/lightningballs at the enemy until they explode. That is not how a cultured elf does things. The Asur are a dying race. Keeping ones own alive is the most important thing an elf can do.

Plus...I hope they get Vauls Unmaking:P

Exactly. While I am not a Warhammer player, from what I've read of the information on the High Elves, the mages' power is not in absolute destructive power, but in their ability to control and manipulate the winds of magic. Their ability to dominate lesser magic users is largely by denying them their power. Since they've noted before that healer archetypes are the rock to the ranged dps scissors, I have long expected the High Elf mage to take the healer slot.

[Dustandpolos]

Now I might me misreading this, but I took the mechanic as being that Archmages drain enemy energy (not health, but Waaagh/Morale/whatever bar) and use it to fuel their own spells.

So put that into the situation of a 1v1 duel with a Bright Wizard (representing pure nuker as some people want for Archmage).
Initially, bright wizard's fireballs do more damage than Archmage return fire. But as the fight progresses, the Archmage's drain magic means that the Archmage's spells are getting more and more powerful, including good healing ability for staying power, while the Bright Wizard is struggling to get the energy to fuel his superior abilities.
A spectator would see the Bright Wizard lobbing high-damage fireballs and DoTs and foolishly believe the Archmage was getting slaughtered. However, it would gradually become apparent that the Bright Wizard was in a race against time, and every second the archmage stayed alive he grew more powerful, denying the crude human the power needed to achieve his full potential, and using this energy to unleash far greater Elven magics himself, turning the tables upon his over-confident opponant and destroying him subtly, even ironically, with his own stolen energy.

So I really don't see Healer/DPS as meaning underpowered as a combat class. Yes, they will group heal a reasonable proportion of the time, perhaps a lot, but in the process they will be crippling the enemy's ability to bring their big guns to bear, and will likely be quite capable of holding their own in the manner described above. In short, I am happy, and though I understand the quite reasonable concerns, I believe they are misplaced.

[Vikingkingq]

Now I might me misreading this, but I took the mechanic as being that Archmages drain enemy energy (not health, but Waaagh/Morale/whatever bar) and use it to fuel their own spells.

So put that into the situation of a 1v1 duel with a Bright Wizard (representing pure nuker as some people want for Archmage).
Initially, bright wizard's fireballs do more damage than Archmage return fire. But as the fight progresses, the Archmage's drain magic means that the Archmage's spells are getting more and more powerful, including good healing ability for staying power, while the Bright Wizard is struggling to get the energy to fuel his superior abilities.
A spectator would see the Bright Wizard lobbing high-damage fireballs and DoTs and foolishly believe the Archmage was getting slaughtered. However, it would gradually become apparent that the Bright Wizard was in a race against time, and every second the archmage stayed alive he grew more powerful, denying the crude human the power needed to achieve his full potential, and using this energy to unleash far greater Elven magics himself, turning the tables upon his over-confident opponant and destroying him subtly, even ironically, with his own stolen energy.

So I really don't see Healer/DPS as meaning underpowered as a combat class. Yes, they will group heal a reasonable proportion of the time, perhaps a lot, but in the process they will be crippling the enemy's ability to bring their big guns to bear, and will likely be quite capable of holding their own in the manner described above. In short, I am happy, and though I understand the quite reasonable concerns, I believe they are misplaced.

That's quite correct. The way I see it, the Archmage IS the best caster in the game, because he can do everything that the other casters can - DPS and Healing - and then also do stuff that no one can do, draining Action Points/Morale/god knows what.

Fighting an Archmage is going to be terrifying, because it'll be like trying to fight in quicksand, seeing yourself getting sucked in. Imagine DPS-ing, trying to put them down, but you can't get the frakking Action Points to pull off your big attacks because they've just stolen them, healed themselves up, and are now blasting you WITH YOUR OWN ACTION POINTS.

How cool is that?

[Ranti]

Sweet Odin, you people are so bloody ignorant.

First of all, THERE ARE NO DAMNED HEALBOTS IN WAR. NO ONE IS A FREAKING HEAL BOT. If the class heals, HE WILL BE DOING IT ONLY 50% of the TIME, the rest is attacking.


From what I interpret it, the Archmage will attack and damage enemies, and the more damage he does to them, the more powerful his heals become.

Also, while by the FLUFF/LORe he may be the strongest mage (not really though, a Tzeentchian mage would kick his ), THIS IS AN RPG, AN MMORPG, AND THE CLASSES MUST BE BALANCED ACCORDING SO, GET THAT INTO YOUR THICK HEADS.

I was about to say the same thing

thank you krulltak /bow

[Ranti]

Wow....No matter what Mythic does, someone will always have a problem with it.

Mythic has followed the lore when it comes to High Elf mages. If you play the TT you'll see that Archmages aren't about just blasting the enemy with offensive magic, they are about supporting the High Elf army around them as well. Mythic *gasp* stayed true to the IP when designing the Archmage. How dare they.

And for the record, High Elf mages are NOT the most powerful magic users in Warhammer. That title goes to the Slann Mage Priests of the Lizardmen. Frog Power!

People have a exact idea about what they want WAR to be

If that doesn't come true

they complain

Just how it is

even a slight deviance from what they expect, and we get lots and lots of useless dribble being posted

Archmages can use the lore of light, that would be to heal, so a healing arch-mage is perfectly acceptable

[Thoden Firehammer]

People have a exact idea about what they want WAR to be

If that doesn't come true

they complain

Just how it is

even a slight deviance from what they expect, and we get lots and lots of useless dribble being posted

Archmages can use the lore of light, that would be to heal, so a healing arch-mage is perfectly acceptable


Agreed, and you can use me for example, I am not happy with the way GW has been treating the lore

[wellsy]

Im for one, am damn happy to see the Archmages in, and to be honest, I think Mythic has hit the nail on the head.

Drain Magic is one spell every user of High Magic gets (and there are three levels of it in the 6th Ed. rules!). And, as mentioned earlier, only two direct damage spells are there. There are two that deny the enemy magical abilities (one makes any double you roll a miscast, the other destroys a magic item), one that make the archmage unassailable by conventional means (ie he becomes a ghost), and one that supports his ranged friends (better accuracy).

This mix is all about denying the enemy their magic, and ensuring that your troops can hit the enemy harder than they can you. Denying power to the enemy makes you more powerful, and to pigeonhole Archmages into being pure damage dealers would not be doing them justice, because by draining the enemy, they demonstrate their mastery of magic.

And ditto to being able to both heal and damage.

[Jhayden]

Im going to bypass all of the posts in this thread and go right to my own post. The ignorance in the OP is astonishing, unless of course he hasn't been following the warhammer fluff/way of play at all.

First of all, there are no dedicated healers in Warhammer Online. Its been stated time and time again that people who have the ability to heal are going to also be able to survive and kick in combat. Warrior Priests have the ability to heal, but they can also swing a hammer like it's nobody's business.

On the description of Archmages, it clearly states that they're healer/nukers.

Look at that again: healer/NUKErs. How hard was it to read that? You have the ability to murk face with magic, just because you also have the ability to heal doesn't mean you're a dedicated healer. Please, for all that is just and right in this world, stop associating WoW or EQ systematics to WAR. Apples and oranges people, apples and oranges.

[Garthilk]

Have you seen the Runepriest vids AT ALL?
And therein lines the fault of your hypothesis. All of your wonderful knowledge and judgement is based on videos. At best you've managed to play the game for a small period of time at a road show. You have no real meaningful experiance with the game. You've never actually advanced as a runepriest, done battle with someone who has also played the game for more than twenty minutes. Your viewpoint is so narrow and limited it's easy to see how you'd belive what you do.

However. As someone who's played the game at length and continues to do so. Let me just say, any Runepriest that just stands and heals, not going to be in my party as they obviously have no real clue how to play the career.

[Zeldias]

Now I might me misreading this, but I took the mechanic as being that Archmages drain enemy energy (not health, but Waaagh/Morale/whatever bar) and use it to fuel their own spells.

So put that into the situation of a 1v1 duel with a Bright Wizard (representing pure nuker as some people want for Archmage).
Initially, bright wizard's fireballs do more damage than Archmage return fire. But as the fight progresses, the Archmage's drain magic means that the Archmage's spells are getting more and more powerful, including good healing ability for staying power, while the Bright Wizard is struggling to get the energy to fuel his superior abilities.
A spectator would see the Bright Wizard lobbing high-damage fireballs and DoTs and foolishly believe the Archmage was getting slaughtered. However, it would gradually become apparent that the Bright Wizard was in a race against time, and every second the archmage stayed alive he grew more powerful, denying the crude human the power needed to achieve his full potential, and using this energy to unleash far greater Elven magics himself, turning the tables upon his over-confident opponant and destroying him subtly, even ironically, with his own stolen energy.

So I really don't see Healer/DPS as meaning underpowered as a combat class. Yes, they will group heal a reasonable proportion of the time, perhaps a lot, but in the process they will be crippling the enemy's ability to bring their big guns to bear, and will likely be quite capable of holding their own in the manner described above. In short, I am happy, and though I understand the quite reasonable concerns, I believe they are misplaced.

And dammit, if that's not the usual twisty elf stuff, I don't know what is!

I'm saying this while being dangerously close to rolling a Swordmaster, however. :-( Dang twisty elfs and their twisty sword-stuff and magic-stuff.

[Tea TIme With Death]

And therein lines the fault of your hypothesis. All of your wonderful knowledge and judgement is based on videos. At best you've managed to play the game for a small period of time at a road show. You have no real meaningful experiance with the game. You've never actually advanced as a runepriest, done battle with someone who has also played the game for more than twenty minutes. Your viewpoint is so narrow and limited it's easy to see how you'd belive what you do.

However. As someone who's played the game at length and continues to do so. Let me just say, any Runepriest that just stands and heals, not going to be in my party as they obviously have no real clue how to play the career.



Praise be to the gangsterness of the warhammer alliance moderator staff.

You guys so so freaking bals to the wall gangster with every post. You guy speak your mind unlike many other forum mods of other games.

[tonic]

For the record, Slann are the most powerful mages.

[Thoden Firehammer]

For the record, Slann are the most powerful mages.

Thoden agrees

[R-A-B]

For the record, Slann are the most powerful mages.

R-A-B agrees whilst shuffling his feet and bickering that "Nagash would still win"

[Kaid]

Kaid agrees and hopes the lizardmen come soon ( Imagines himself on a huge floating chair )

You can't go wrong with lizardmen

[Dracnye]

From what I can see, he will be a healing/damaging hybrid. But the Archmage was bound to be the healer/support class all along, who else was going to do it? They have the ability to use all of the magic types, which means they have access to spells that can do huge amounts of damage and also to spells that can heal.

[vehemoth]

Let me just say, any Runepriest that just stands and heals, not going to be in my party as they obviously have no real clue how to play the career.

:D Garthilk, saves the day with logos, ethos and pathos!!!!

I take offense to all who bash the runepriest's very involved versatile functionality by assuming that they are "heal bots". If you are to ever group with me I forgive you, for I would rather demonstrate to you the effectiveness of the career rather than neglect you bitterly. If you are to play against me, I will help you to attone for the grudge you have made against yourself by making your destruction inevitable whereever we should encounter each other for runepriests decide the direction of the battle :). "there are no heal bots in WAR" "All careers are meant to be played by a human being"

Anyway, I was coming up with some tactical doctrines earlier for The Altdorf First Legion, and I realized what an ideal addition to Order the Archemage is. We now have a ranged healer that will be ideal in ranged healing situations (redundant and silly on purpose). Like the other healers, on both sides, that's not all they do. Healing is important to WAR, and as it should be, as it makes up 25% of the archetypes. I would expect melee DPS, Ranged DPS, and tanking to be important as well. If one is not a fan of healing there are 18 other (very appealing) careers to choose from. If not you are only limiting yourself.

Additionally, if one wishes to stand still and spam healing, they are only keeping themselves and thier allies down. Thier are tens, maybe hundreds of other games in which you can literally heal bot to your hearts content if that is the case. WAR is just too progressive and fun to be one of them.

Be like the Overman! Help the thread!

[Archin]

The Masters of all Winds of Magic will be HEALERS... with a small GIMMICK to differentiate them from the other healbots.

No they will be able to heal as well as dealing damage like all the other healer hybrids in Warhammer, no damage no healing, no healing no damage so just doing one will get you nowhere.


Im really starting to hate Mythic's approach to healing. I thought there would be no healbots but as it turned out, the opposite is happening.


How can you hate something you have no knowledge of, lets be honest you dont do you? why use the term 'healbot?' you may of had bad experience with the approach other games took to healing classes, but this game is its own, has its own mechanics and using the term 'healbot' is imo wrong, at this point for sure.

[Jonas]

No they will be able to heal as well as dealing damage like all the other healer hybrids in Warhammer, no damage no healing, no healing no damage so just doing one will get you nowhere.



How can you hate something you have no knowledge of, lets be honest you dont do you? why use the term 'healbot?' you may of had bad experience with the approach other games took to healing classes, but this game is its own, has its own mechanics and using the term 'healbot' is imo wrong, at this point for sure.

Because, there is a very good chance that (s)he is a troll. Almost every post I've seen by the user has been quite antagonistic, often referring to healers as 'healbots' etc.. the purpose of which is I assume, to elicit a reaction from people.

[harkan]

You are definately correct, but with what we have in WAR itself, I think it's safe to say, at least lore-wise, that archmages are the most potent magic users out of all the classes (although sorceress's are quite powerful as well, and are, debatebly, better with offensive spells)

PPl need to stop mixing up "potent" and "big numbers".
or "good" and "high dps".

It just shows how much people fail already if you cant see beyond the need to have big numbers, if you cant see how group pvp will play out and if you cant see you can be the most powerfull magic user without nuking like a bright wizard.

if a class is a toolbox then the most potent toolbox is the one with most tools in it, not the one with the biggest hammer.

as to the op: beside failing to understand even the basic's no one is forcing you to roll a healer hybrid, if you want to be a dpser just pick a dps class and be one of 49030394093409234 others sitting there waiting for a group in the later stages of the game.

[Revolutionomni]

As I plan to play the Archmage, I feel must through my thoughts into the mix. ;)

We may not end up at the top of the damage meter, but we'll have plenty of damage to through out AND we can heal! Archmages are the epitome of High Elves if you ask me. They can do everything and do it superbly! And as for melee damage, you can keep it. Why be up front in harms way when you can blast from afar or from atop? Oh no! I've taken damage, oh wait, I can HEAL! :cool:

If I play any other High Elf, it shall be the Swordmaster, because damn, they're hawt sauce! :D

I just can't wait to play a Archmage and rain down both death, and life. :twisted:

[Steel*Faith]

And as for melee damage, you can keep it. Why be up front in harms way when you can blast from afar or from atop? Oh no! I've taken damage, oh wait, I can HEAL! :cool:

The devs said the Archmage is going to rock with a staff in melee combat too. Remember that cinematic video?

[Revolutionomni]

The devs said the Archmage is going to rock with a staff in melee combat too. Remember that cinematic video?

Actually, I do remember a few things being said about their staffs dealing some nice damage, but still, I have no desire for melee damage unless I have no where to run and I have no MPs to cast with; which shouldn't be a problem with my tapping ability. ;)

MPs + range + tapping = :twisted:

[Noesis]

To be perfectly honest it could probably work out in the archmages favor that they heal instead of front loading damage.

Sure, bright wizards might be able to dish out the super nukes, but the ability to heal oneself might outweigh this advantage. I'm thinking something along the lines of a WoW priest that is both 3/4 Shadow and 3/4 Holy spec...

Think about it, some nice HoTs (Heals over time) to throw on yourself combined with some mana draining your enemies and giving you some. I can picture an archmage being the king of group vrs group and large scale battles because of their staying power. You cant nuke if you have no mana, and you cant nuke if you are dead. I'm willing to bet the archmage will be able to both keep its mana up by draining those who have it and heal itself with some nice instants or heals over time while nuking people.

Actually.... I might have to consider playing an archmage now.

[Immortal_Spazbite]

I know the thread already had a bad start, however there is some truth to what the person who started the thread said.

Highelfes, or Elfes in general are thought to be the most profound magic users out there. (besides chaos magic and lizardmen frogs). Everyone who has played against elfes on the TT knows the famous "comet of casandora" which frequently kills 1/3 of an army within 2 rounds. :p

Lorewise and coming from the TT I expected the elfen range dd to be a magic user. Now it seems that that the elfen range dd will be a pet class with a bow, or spear, etc.

The reason for them not to implement the archmage as the ranged dd, but as the support/healer/nuker was the lack of a ranged pet class for order. (opposite of a squig herder). If you think about it, its rather logical. Whether one likes that fact or not doesnt really matter now. It is simply one of the possible ways to solve the issue with ranged pet class + elfen ranged dd + elfen magic users.

My solution would have been to give the archmage a summoned pet (no, not a water elemental ;)) and make him the ranged dd while putting in some sort of female only heal/support class. Maiden of (insert name here).

P.S.
I have been to gc and to the gamesday in cologone, and trust me, all the people I´ve talked to were the same opinion: Healer/supporters do far less damage than ranged dd or melee dd (sigmarpriest). Why? Because they have auras, buffs, debuffs and heals. Do not trust all sources telling you that runepriests have better nukes than bright wizards or that zealots do more damage than a magus. Even if a zealot were to spend all his actionpoints into nuking an enemy, a magus will still do way more damage if he does the same.

When you want to see big numbers on your screen play a melee dd with dw or 2h or play a ranged magic dd. If you want to support your group with buffs, debuffs, dispells, heals and an occaisonal nuke, play a supporter.

[Aeldor]

What i don't really understand here is why you are equating high damage numbers with most powerful mage. Any monkey with the slightest knowledge of magic can throw a couple fireballs, just look at the humans.

It takes a true mage to be able to wield all the Winds of Magic like they were an extension of ones body. A High Elf mage is generally so much more than a simple 'glass cannon' that is represented in most common fantasy. He is one of the most powerful magic users ever to have existed. This being so they will devote their spellcasting to things that are useful to the whole army.

Stating this again i believe, but out of the Lore of High Magic, a lore that only High Elves have access too, only TWO of the six spells listed are damage spells. The other four are utility. Its my belief that High Magic is the most powerful of all the lores, and in TT i've always used it on most of my mages.

[Dagoth]

You cant nuke if you have no mana

There is no mana in this game you know.

[Aeonus]

Let's think of this in game terms then.

If IN GAME the archmage was a pure damage dealer, we would expect them to out dps a bright wizard simply due to the LORE surrounding them, right? But from a game and balance perspective we simply cannot do this, who would ever play a brightwizard or any other form of caster if the archmage is better?

INSTEAD to show from a LORE point of view that the elven mages are the finest in the world, they allow them to call upon multiple winds of magic to do both healing and damage, putting them in a more balanced view IN GAME.

[Wyrmtongue]

I'm getting naffed off with people claiming the whole thing sucks just because a certain class or feature hasn't been implemented the way they happened to think it should be.

Note: It says "Healer / Nuker" which has drain abilities. This has the potential to be a ridiculously powerful class, and yet because the word "Healer" is thrown in there, people assume that they'll be a wimpy healbot. Wait and see people, WAIT AND SEE!

[Eldrik]

I don't get this thread! You should be happy about being one of the strongest mages in the game and being a healer at the same time. Like combining mage and priest in WoW (as an example not to be taken literally.) I think you guys that were set playing archmage are just starting to fear that you wont be standing at the back and just picking a target, frying that target and then picking a new target. I think it's a cool way to get people of their backsides and doing more. The squig herder for example, they could have just kept it as the simple goblin archer but mythic did one better and added diversity. I can tell already that on the high elf side there are gonna be alot of those people refusing to heal. Bummer for high elves I guess... (BTW there are now healbots in this game, just those people that can kick then throw in the occasional heal...)

[Revolutionomni]

As an Archmage, I for one plan on healing, I've played healers and love them; long as they're designed well.

When I played WoW, I was a Priest lvling up almost 50/50 dis/holy on a PvP server :shock: and I loved it; after some time, I forgot what it was like to die until I was ganked by some over lvled character. In Battlefield 2 I played the Medic and I was almost always at the top of the kill meter because I was so hard to kill. In Final Fantasy 11 I LOVED my Red Mage sub Black Mage.

Thing is, Mythic doesn't want me main healing by any other MMO standards. They want Archmages helping out everyone around them, both in support/interrupt casting and in damage, and if the player has been tapping then they can blow off some nice heals. As some have said, the Archmage may have very few damage spells in the end, with lots of support/interrupt spells, but what damage spells they do have may be heavy in deed. Either way, I'm playing my role: support/interrupt casting while adding to damage and healing when I can. :D

My only hope is that their "tapping" ability does more than just give me my source for healing. Some have said tapping might be done through interrupting spells and if they can be done to both melee and casters, I'm good to go! :cool:

[Kevinskewl]

In all of the interviews with Jeff and Paul, Jeff says specifically each time that the ArchMage uses drain magic to take the life-force of his enemies and use that energy to "help his friends." From the way he says it, it sounds like you use drained energy to heal and buff your friends better... not get better nukes. So I'm not sure about all this talk of ArchMages being able to out dps BrightWizards. Cuz to me if they could do that, it would be a bit overpowered. So with having drained energy only helping heals... it sounds A LOT like the shamans WAAAGH mechanic that helps him heal better when he's been dpsing.

So there's 2 options:

1. Archmages are overpowered cuz they can drain to be the best healers and best nukers.
2. They are a copy of the shaman mechanic. (only difference I guess would be that the drains actually reduce the enemy's morale or maybe even takes away their berserk?)

I'm thinking they're going to be like the choppa with the berserk ability. While Berserk, they are better than the other dpsers but when they're not berserk they are Sub-Par, or below the average dpser. So if the ArchMage doesn't use drains they are Sub-Par, but when they drain they kick . ArchMages probably have some good damage morale abilities, and if they drain the enemies morale they can use their high damage morale abilities all the time; and the enemy doesn't get to use any because it's been drained. Maybe the ArchMages are the kings of morale abilities.

[VeriusCarth]

I'd like to point out the vague lack of anything else really being able to take up a healing slot in place of the Archmage, for those that are wondering why he's not Ranged DD.

And like others have said, just because he's one of the best mages in Warhammer, doesn't mean he'll be the best DD of all the mages. Best caster != Most damage. Casting involves both damage dealing and healing. There are some that do one or the other, and some that do both. In this case, the Archmage does both, after all, he uses all the winds of magic. Not just a single one, usually meant for destructive purposes.

[Kaeldor]

From the newsletter:

"The Archmage is spell casting madness gone bananas. Like everything the High Elves do, they are the best at it, no matter what. Thus the Archmage is not just good at magic; they are super good at magic. This is a Healer / Caster. To be good at his job, the Archmage must taste combat, draw in Chaos energy, control it, then fire it back at the enemy or mold it into positive magic to unleash on his allies"

Sounds like fun. And not like a healbot ...

[Thorval]

That is not a healbot, that is a hybrid caster. Probably 45% healer and 55% dps, or something along the lines of that.

[Exion]

Archmage won't be a "healbot" there won't be any healbots in this game,a healbot is someone that does nothing but purely heal and it can be extremely boring if the class dosen't have much to choose from (thinking WOW paladin spamming flash of light). The healers in this game look alot more hybrid friendly than any healbot (shadow priest fits pretty good). I've had alot of fun trying builds in Guild Wars that would sub ritualist just for weapon of warding and weilder's boon,that would try to dps and heal constantly.
In a pvp setting dps can be just as valueable as healing,you kill the enemies before they do serious damage,and I also believe that noone should ever be forced to play in a way that makes the game feel boring to them.

[Kharlene]

The post that said the Archmage sounds somewhat more like a Shadow Priest than a healbot, I 100% agree with (namely because I was thinking the exact same thing at the time :mrgreen: ), which is vastly far from a healbot. I once played a holy priest for awhile and loathed it (because before I had always played shadow) for raiding, problem is all you're doing is spamming heals, i.e. a healbot. The mechanic for the Archmage just by its description is insanely different than heal spammer, because whatever dmg/heal they deal out it will be nuts (especially given that Paul mentioned they have the most intense animation/graphics for their spells out of all the other classes/races, could be mere exaggeration which wouldn't be surprising of Paul, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for arguments sake), personally after slapping down some major heals (or rather what was required of me at the time), I'd immediately switch to dealing whatever insane amount of dmg I could. The amount of a Shadow Priests heals are utterly dependent upon the dmg amount they deal out, for the Archmage though its more like their dmg/heal strength is one in the same and both dependent upon what energy they can siphon and manipulate from their enemies and unleash back at them whether it be through empowering their allies or complete ruin.

[Perp]

I dont know about you guys, but I was really upset at the announcement of Archmage as the High Elf healer and not the ranged DPS.

High Elf Archmage
Archtype: Healer/Nuker
- Most powerful magic users
- Master of all Winds of Magic

Core mechanic: Drain Magic
- Draws energy from target
- Uses drained energy to heal


The Masters of all Winds of Magic will be HEALERS... with a small GIMMICK to differentiate them from the other healbots.

Im really starting to hate Mythic's approach to healing. I thought there would be no healbots but as it turned out, the opposite is happening.

Just take a look at people's impressions/vids of Runepriests and Warrior priests if you dont believe me. The only decent healing class so far appears to be the Gobbo Shaman.

Now some of the most powerful mages in Warhammer will be reduced to healers when they should be dishing out the damage... ugh.:rolleyes:

Actually their gimmick will be almost identical to the shaman's waaaagh. HAHAH, your uber mage is no better than a snotling on good terms with mork-n-gork.

[Aethelbeorht]

Actually their gimmick will be almost identical to the shaman's waaaagh. HAHAH, your uber mage is no better than a snotling on good terms with mork-n-gork.

I don't get how the gimmick's the same. Last I knew, the Shaman's Waaagh was based on doing damage. I fail to see how damage = AP drain.

[Crazy ol' dude]

I don't get how the gimmick's the same. Last I knew, the Shaman's Waaagh was based on doing damage. I fail to see how damage = AP drain.
As a shaman you do damage then you can cast AP costless heals.
As an archmage, you drain AP then you can cast AP costless heals (because you probably drained AP for that purpose) ;)
So yeah, in theory, using info we got so far they are kinda similar ;p

Imo this is just one more proof that Mythic wants to balance sides to give players who like particular gameplay a choice to play as destro or order

[Vikingkingq]

Actually their gimmick will be almost identical to the shaman's waaaagh. HAHAH, your uber mage is no better than a snotling on good terms with mork-n-gork.

Except that the Shaman can only do DPS.
And the Archmage is the only career in WAR that can drain AP.

So to recap: the Shaman can nuke and heal. The Archmage can do both, and can do something extra.

[LastHeretic]

i know this may seem a fruitless point im not sure if its been discussed as i only browsed the last few pages. but does nobody remember the soddin trailers!!

the archmage seemed quite happy to duel a witch elf in cc. now i know that trialers are usually just showing u what u want to see and to get hype up etc...but im guessing even at that early stage the designers wanted something a little bit more impressive from the warhammer worlds best casters than degrading them to repeatedly healing the same guy...over.....and over......and over....and o..u get the picture :)

personally id love to see some melee from my archmages, a few melee type spells e.g adding a knock back to next attack or anything that gives him the slightest sodding chance to get stuck in! im not saying he should match say a chosen warrior as its not an archmages place, but surely being able to put that staff to some good use other than a back warmer would be wicked. i reckon there'll either be a ghostbuster-esque beam of light to absorb Ap from surrounding enemies, or it'll be a melee thing. whack em on the noggin and nick their Ap :)

personally im hoping to run up to a fight, whack somebody on the head with my staff as i go, absorb Ap from a ton of enemies...take a few seconds...and return their Ap back to them in the form of a lightning bolt!

[Aethelbeorht]

i know this may seem a fruitless point im not sure if its been discussed as i only browsed the last few pages. but does nobody remember the soddin trailers!!

the archmage seemed quite happy to duel a witch elf in cc. now i know that trialers are usually just showing u what u want to see and to get hype up etc...but im guessing even at that early stage the designers wanted something a little bit more impressive from the warhammer worlds best casters than degrading them to repeatedly healing the same guy...over.....and over......and over....and o..u get the picture :)

personally id love to see some melee from my archmages, a few melee type spells e.g adding a knock back to next attack or anything that gives him the slightest sodding chance to get stuck in! im not saying he should match say a chosen warrior as its not an archmages place, but surely being able to put that staff to some good use other than a back warmer would be wicked. i reckon there'll either be a ghostbuster-esque beam of light to absorb Ap from surrounding enemies, or it'll be a melee thing. whack em on the noggin and nick their Ap :)

personally im hoping to run up to a fight, whack somebody on the head with my staff as i go, absorb Ap from a ton of enemies...take a few seconds...and return their Ap back to them in the form of a lightning bolt!

There was one Q&A where someone asked about the Archmage and how they'd use their staff, and the answer was pretty much "go look at the trailer". So from that, it seems to me like they will be able to beat people in the head if it comes down to it.

That being said, I doubt they're designed to rush into the thick of a battle...

[Perp]

Except that the Shaman can only do DPS.
And the Archmage is the only career in WAR that can drain AP.

So to recap: the Shaman can nuke and heal. The Archmage can do both, and can do something extra.

Firstly, they have never said the Archmage will drain AP.

They said he drains energy, which he uses to heal.

Since energy != AP, it isn't very likely he drains AP.

Untill some evidence is presented that archmage's mechanic is draining AP it's a much more likely assuption that it works like the shaman's waaagh.

[Konrad Siegesruf]

My theory based on a Gamespy article(I think it was atleast). They said the Archmage would drain the mana(Curse that word) of the target, and if they haven't got that, the Archmage will drain the AP instead. My theory is that it will drain the special bar(WAAAGH! and such), but if they haven't got that, they drain the AP instead :p.

[Aethelbeorht]

Firstly, they have never said the Archmage will drain AP.

They said he drains energy, which he uses to heal.

Since energy != AP, it isn't very likely he drains AP.

Untill some evidence is presented that archmage's mechanic is draining AP it's a much more likely assuption that it works like the shaman's waaagh.

So lets assume that he drains something else (Special stuff, like RF or waaagh). Either way, he isn't dealing damage to increase the effectiveness of his heals. And the Shaman isn't draining anything for his Waaagh.

To be effective as a shaman, you have to deal damage. To be effective as an archmage, you have to drain energy, whatever that is. Yes, at it's most basic, it's relatively the same. Both classes have to do something other than heal for their heals to be the most effective. Beyond that? Draining stuff != dealing damage. Unless you're draining health, which I highly doubt is what they mean by 'energy'.

I'm fairly certain that they do mean AP though. In one of the interviews, I believe something was said about how they take magic from people. Which means whatever passes for mana, I presume (which I thought was AP, I could be wrong). And from a balance standpoint, it doesn't make sense to make a class unable to use their core gimmick vs. half the classes. It would be like saying "okay, hammerers only gain momentum when they're hitting a melee class."

[QuantumTheory]

Two things:

1) Your arguing and whining about it will hardly change something, okay, it's a dissapointment, but you don't have to start making some big arguement... if you don't like it, screaming at the people here won't help you. Either leave or stop.

2) That's a bit sad how you guys start crying that he isn't the best Magician anymore and that he was reduced to healbotting. By what I read, Archmage is much better than Shaman. Shaman damages and heals, Archmage drains the enemy energy (or AP) of a guy and then uses it to damage the guy or heal himself. And he is an uberpwnz0r at melee too, if what EA said was true. So if you are a WAR fan that cares about the Lore too, don't complain about him being worse than he was, he has lost none of his potency... and if you are not a fan of Lore but just like WAR for the game it is, just go and play the real Nooker class if you want to.

[Paintbrush-WHA]

1) Elves have to have a support class and there really isn't anyone else suited to this role.
2) They already have a magic nuker on the Order side in the Bright Wizard so it wouldn't make a lot of sense to make another class that fits this exact same role with the only difference being that they are a different race. They are trying to give people options for gameplay within an archetype not just simply having different appearances.
3) Order did not really have an equivenlent to the Goblin Shaman, in that they didn't have a ranged damage/healing hybrid. The Runepriest is much more defensively oriented, and the Warrior Priest is obviously a melee class, so, again, this gives a player for the Order more gameplay options by making the Archmage a support role.



Just in case anyone overlooked this great reply by Aaronthethird. Good post, Aaron, keep it up.

And mates,
No one knows how the Archmage (or any other class for that matter) will be come release. The game is still a ways off. Discuss the topic, but please don't get into a heated argument over things none of us know for certain yet.