Abilities and skills

[zenarion]

So.. what do you experienced MMO players think the Black Guard will have?
Will there only be a halberd to use? Let us speculate.

[Kaid]

Well if you go from the artwork then you could use that big 2h sword :). But I think its going to be based around hate and anger considering that is the main mechanic.

[Raes]

The image from Leipzig shows 2 swords on the side, although these are used as a means of showing your status in Druchii society im hoping i won't always be stuck using a Halberd 100% of the time. I know thats part of the BG gimmick/lore but i've never been a massive 2H fan.

Abilities wise im guessing lots of things based around a stubborn/immovable/bodyguard style of play, BG's arn't going to be easy to get past by any means.

[Illya]

On the artwork we see two swords, both sheathed at the waist, an obvious sign of the Black Guard's status of dark elf noble. He's holding a massive halberd, which we can assume will be his main weapon.

However, I think there will be a variety in weapons, though I doubt we'll see a sword and shield option. In fact, I'll be surprised if he gets to use those two swords at his waist at all. They might just be there for 'decoration'. What I suspect, is that he'll be able to use spears, pikes, halberds, maybe even two handed swords.

As for the skills, well, what do we know?

He builds up hatred when being hit, this seems to me to be excellent for soloing, but horrible for pvp. However, Mythic in all their wisdom (ha!), have undoubtably foreseen that problem. I've read somewhere on the DE main forum about taunts, that could be used in the following way.

Taunt an opponent, and if he refuses to attack you, he gets a damage debuff, against all opponents but the BG. If he attacks the BG, he does his regular damage, of course, but the BG will then continue to build up hatred, which seems to open up more powerful attacks.

The translation "gates" to "ermöglichen" in German, was rather poor imho. I feel that the latter means "enable" which seems a lot more logical than "gates." It would make a lot more sense, in any case. Hatred enables more powerful moves and abilities.

Now, how will these badass armoured elves fight? Fast and dodgy? Slow and powerful? I'd hate to see an elf, even a fully armoured elf, hitting slowly. I see these guys fighting hard and fast, their halberds becoming a whirling storm of steely death, as they dodge and cut their way through enemies.

[Auku]

He will use halberds and probably 2h and other wepons.

[Rembrant]

I have to admit seeing the Blackguard has inspired some interesting speculation. So let's speculate.

Game Mechanic: Gains Hatred And Thus Enables New Abilities...

Let's say there are FOUR Tiers of Attacking Abilities for the Blackguard that require this hatred. And each Tier has its own unique set of attacks. As hatred grows, it unlocks each tier. Using tiered abilities wastes hatred thus depleting the bar rapidly. **Higher the tier, the stronger the abilities, but the more hatred they cost and the less amount you can use them.**

Tier One would be weak attacks but require less amount of hatred. (Stabbing Knock back- Straight thrust attack that pushed back one enemy)(Sword Breaking- Devastating strike that disarms an enemy for four seconds and makes them unable to defend themselves.)

Tier Two- moderate attacks, moderate hatred. (Halberd Twisting- A cutting slash that causes damage to multiple enemies and leaves a bleeding effect on them which increases damage.)(Armor Piercing- Powerful thrusting strike that ignores all armor)

Tier Three- strong attacks, large amount of hatred. ("Move Weakling!"- Impales enemy and tosses them out of your way.)(Crushing Rage- Overhead smash, blunt trauma inflicted to enemy, stunning them for two seconds and impairing movement for ten seconds)

Tier Four would be powerful attacks, but would require almost your entire hatred bar. ("Feel My Wrath!"- Hits all enemies in a whirlwind of the halberd and knocks them back)(Hatred Release- A flash of blue energy rushes over the blackguard as his attacks become a blur, attacking one enemy multiple times in a brutal combo that ends in a knock back)

As hatred builds, it is up to the Blackguard to determine to waste the hatred on the Tier One abilities, or to keep fighting with normal attacks and hopes to survive until Tier Four.


This is all made up and wishful thinking. Speculation is fun! :o

[zenarion]

Interesting ideas Rembrant. Although i hate the "big blue magic effect of hatred". Would really appreciate Mythic toning down the magic effects of non-magic classes. Less crap on screen, and the magic users will seem more unique.

[Vid]

I had a crazy idea this morning for a ability for a Black Guard. Imagine if you would that your Black Guard takes his halberd/voulge and hurls it at an opponent in the distance and then starts to close in on the enemy to snatch it out of the now dazed opponent. Realistically I don't expect to see such an ability but you have to admit it would be cool to see happen.

A passive ability I thought of would be that the Black Guard would get a small percentage damage bonus to enemies that are mounted. The reason for this is that the halberd was originally used to fight mounted enemies before they could get close enough to slash at you with there sword from horse back. Also most halberds had a hook on other side of the blade that they used to snatch people off of the horse as they passed so I could see an ability to dismount the enemy in place of the damage bonus.

[Xurré]

The image from Leipzig shows 2 swords on the side, although these are used as a means of showing your status in Druchii society im hoping i won't always be stuck using a Halberd 100% of the time. I know thats part of the BG gimmick/lore but i've never been a massive 2H fan.
Since Kouran, Captain of the Black Guard (http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/special-characters/4/) uses two swords instead of a halberd I don't see the problem with that. In fact, it's quite possible that that's just what you can do.


- Xurré

[Crazeh]

Just as with the High Elf Swordmaster, I expect we'll see the Black Guard set apart from the other heavy tanks in other races. Being Elven, they'll be sleeker looking, far more nimble and have faster reactions. Other tanks like the Ironbreaker and Black Orc look like the sort to plant their feet, blocking attacks more often than dodging them, which is all well and good. I see the Black Guard and Swordmaster more in the realm of dodges and parries.

I guess they may suffer from the lack of a shield somewhat, slightly lower armour to account for their increased avoidance rate perhaps. So they might not be the best candidate to tank a boss for example, but who cares about PvE right? RvR's where the game's at.

[The Bastard]

Tossing out some random ideas for BG abilities, in four categories.

Hatred Generators
How do you start building that Hatred? Just taking damage isn't going to do it - well, maybe for PVE but even then you need some starting AP to work with, and obviously this is a key thing for PVP. Some ideas:
-Sworn Sword: activated ability, targets an ally for a short period of time. All damage done to that ally generates Hatred. Perhaps at higher tiers crowd control effects and debuffs will also generate Hatred.
-Loathing: passive ability, all crowd control effects applied to the BG generate Hatred.
-First To Fall: activated ability, the inverse of Sworn Sword; for a short time, all damage done by a targeted opponent will generate Hatred, no matter who receives the damage.
-Malicious Intent: activated ability, generates a small, fixed amount of Hatred on command to give the BG something to work with.

Damage Dealers
Straight-up melee attacks. While the BG is primarily designed as a tank, every class in this game is supposed to have the ability to bring the pain, and chaining Hatred generators could make a Guard a very potent damage class under the right circumstances.
-Impale: a lunging strike, with a knockback effect and high damage potential. Usable with either a polearm or sword, but the Hatred cost and recovery time are higher with the longer-range, higher-damage polearm.
-Cleave: a sweeping attack that deals damage to all targets in the Black Guard's frontal arc, with the same Hatred cost mechanics as Impale.
-Cull the Weak: an attack that deals damage based on how much damage the foe has already taken. The Hatred cost scales up with potential damage; a possible finisher if enough Hatred has been generated.
-Gaping Wound: a swift attack that thewounds the target, leaving a bleed effect that causes the target to take extra damage from other melee attacks, though it does little damage on its own. A fairly small Hatred cost.

Protective Abilities
Psychopathic murderer or not, a Black Guard is a Black Guard. The class should have ways to prevent and lower incoming damage, both to themselves and others around them.
-Forbid: activated ability; the BG targets an ally. While the BG lives, all opponents pay a significantly higher AP cost to target that ally with spells or abilities.
-Will To Hate: activated ability; for a time, all damage taken is reduced, and generates a little bit of extra Hatred. Requires a decent amount of Hatred already built up.
-Black Mockery: the BG's taunt. While under the influence of this taunt, players pay significantly more AP to attack any other target. (Not sure if this mechanic is already in use!) Has obvious PVE effects
-Iron Thorns: activated ability; the Guard steps in front of an ally and uses his halberd as a barrier, causing the next few sources of damage to that target to instead hit the Guard. Also deals a small amount of damage to melee attackers, generating substantial threat in PVE. A fairly high Hatred cost.

Debuffs
The bread and butter of the PVE tank, and obviously important for PVP effectiveness as well.
-Crippling Strike: a quick and nasty attack that slows the target's attack and casting speed. The BG's primary spammable threat generator in PVE; does not stack very high but has a low hatred cost.
-Terrible Presence: activated ability; the BG calls upon the horrifying reputation of his regiment to make his foes cower in fear. For a short time, all opponents who close within melee range of the BG have their effectiveness reduced to next to nothing. Obviously counterable, but a good "oh " button. Limited use in PVE.
-No Mercy: activated ability; the BG promises a swift and brutal death to the luckiest of his foes, and far worse to those unfortunate enough to survive. Opponents receive a debuff that reduces their damage and healing abilities based on how much health they have left; the closer to death they are, the less effective the Guard's dire threats. High Hatred cost, but very useful in PVE and PVP situations both. Countered by group buffs like those of the Knight of the Blazing Sun.
-Brutal Suppression: passive ability. Anyone damaged by the Black Guard pays a higher AP cost to activate their abilities. Scales with level.

-done making up for now-

[Illya]

Since Kouran, Captain of the Black Guard (http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/special-characters/4/) uses two swords instead of a halberd I don't see the problem with that. In fact, it's quite possible that that's just what you can do.


- Xurré

Actually, while he's depicted on the image with two swords, he only uses one. The Blade of Ensorcelled Iron. Also, he's not allowed to be given any other equipment.

I'm not nitpicking, because I'd like for them to be able to use their double swords, they're nobles afterall, but I doubt it.

[Xurré]

Actually, while he's depicted on the image with two swords, he only uses one. The Blade of Ensorcelled Iron. Also, he's not allowed to be given any other equipment.

I'm not nitpicking, because I'd like for them to be able to use their double swords, they're nobles afterall, but I doubt it.
From the 4th edition rulebook (page 60, underlining mine):

WEAPONS/ARMOUR: Captain Kouran is armed with a sword which he uses in conjunction with the Blade of Ensorcelled Iron for a total of 4 attacks.
Of course, in that version he only had three attacks to start with (instead of five).


- Xurré

[Rembrant]

Very nice, ! I especially like the debuffs. :D

[Blaze]

Tossing out some random ideas for BG abilities, in four categories.

....cool stuff....

-done making up for now-

I LOVE these. Especially the names. Well done!

I'll think about them more closely tomorrow and go to sleep now. And sleep well knowing that my favorite class choice will be in the game :)

[Illya]

From the 4th edition rulebook (page 60, underlining mine):


Of course, in that version he only had three attacks to start with (instead of five).


- Xurré

I see, I see. Well, I only looked at the link you posted, not having the old Dark Elf army book. They were updated just around the time I bought my first minis, some years ago now.

[The Bastard]

Oh man, I forgot. There need to be high-tier mounted combat skills - perhaps a charge that does more damage the further away you start, and a multi-target tanking ability based on your Nauglir's terrifying presence and vicious attacks.

This presumes, of course, that the world is a righteous and just place and Black Guard get to ride Cold Ones.

[Azure|X|]

If anyone is allowed to ride Cold Ones besides Cold One Knights I will be amazed... I am sure you have all heard the backstory but the cold ones only allow riders who bathe in fluids so the cold ones dont see them as a threat (or something of that nature... my DE book is in my car about a mile away!)

so ya...

-rex

[Messk]

However, I think there will be a variety in weapons, though I doubt we'll see a sword and shield option.

Black Guard will be able to use shields, proof:

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2007/234/520538_20080823_screen015.jpg

[Blaze]

Black Guard will be able to use shields, proof:

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2007/234/520538_20080823_screen015.jpg

Now thats a shield my Black Guard would not be embarrassed about using.

[Illya]

Black Guard will be able to use shields, proof:

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2007/234/520538_20080823_screen015.jpg

Awesome! That's a COK shield if I ever saw one. And what with the black guard already looking a lot more like a COK than a BG, I'm happy.

[Jinsei]

Another kickass Black Guard shield: http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2007/234/520538_20080823_screen017.jpg

EDIT: And some one handed swords too! http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2007/234/520538_20080823_screen018.jpg

[Illya]

Another kickass Black Guard shield: http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2007/234/520538_20080823_screen017.jpg

EDIT: And some one handed swords too! http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2007/234/520538_20080823_screen018.jpg

Dude, if only you had any idea how happy you just made me. I'd hug you if I could. But you'll have to settle for an e-hug.

[Jinsei]

Dude, if only you had any idea how happy you just made me. I'd hug you if I could. But you'll have to settle for an e-hug.
Haha, just trying to spread the wealth of info around! :D

[Wren]

Like any good dark elf, he should have plenty of tactics and/or moral abilities related to doing drugs. Big bonuses but some significant drawbacks as well.

[Freax]

From what ive been reading and watching on GC2007, they were hinting that Black Guard is suppose to be kind of a pseudo-samurai like tank, so you can probably expect all kinds of Deathblow and impalement style abilities :)

[Xurré]

I had a thought…

One of the special rules that Black Guards have in the tabletop game is that they’re Stubborn.

How would that relate to the game (if they’re translating it at all)? Maybe as some kind of self-root; some kind of status protection against knockbacks (and possibly enemy roots) and the like? After all, Black Guards are supposed to be these immovable obstacles.

Thoughts?


- Xurré

[Thrakkesh]

Protection against knockbacks would be hot. But to hell with self-root (I mean, it might give them a boost but any half-way intelligent player is going to walk away from that). , give them a triggered snare immunity--they're a tank class, disruption is the name of the game. Make them hard to pull off anybody.

Playing at PAX this weekend, and Eek! was pretty annoying.

[Blaze]

I think Stubborn could translate into some kind of passive resistance to all forms on CC (stuns, snares, roots etc.) as well as knockbacks.

Or it would be an active ability on a cooldown that grants immunity to something specific for a while. Stuns and knockbacks perhaps. Or movement impairing effects.

[Kellaris]

Black Guard will be able to use shields, proof:

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2007/234/520538_20080823_screen015.jpg


This is no proof, this is just a shield. I cannot see BG on this picture.
They have published some cool artworks, but this does not mean they are designed for BG.
They have published corsair ship also. Becouse it looks cool.

I really doubt they will use shields.
They are supposed to be psycho-killers. Carrying defensive equipment (shield) is just waste of one hand.;)


EDIT: And some one handed swords too! http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2007/234/520538_20080823_screen018.jpg


Considering the size of handgrip, I suspect it may be two-handed swords. But I might be wrong.

[Morag]

Have to agree with Kellaris here. It could be for a Black Guard, sure. It could also be for npcs or just decoration laying around somewhere. Halberds seem to be the weapon of choice for Black Guards and hopefully Mythic is designing the class around that, like the Swordmaster and their sword. A little variety in weapons wouldn't be bad though.

[Xurré]

Protection against knockbacks would be hot. But to hell with self-root (I mean, it might give them a boost but any half-way intelligent player is going to walk away from that). , give them a triggered snare immunity--they're a tank class, disruption is the name of the game. Make them hard to pull off anybody.
How I can see a self-root working is that it would be an insta-cast which gives you a second or two protection from knockbacks and such, but during those two seconds you can't move yourself (are rooted).

This way, when you see an enemy wind up their knockback you trigger the ability. It's last long enough to stop their effect, but not long enough to seriously hamper you.

Just a thought anyway; can definitely see a triggered immunity working too. :)


- Xurré

[Rik Riorik]

In the end a straight translation of Stubborn would be that they are just bascially given tactics that translate into a sort of immunity to morale losses or slower morale gains as per other players abilities being used on them.

While we're on the subject of stubborn, donnae forget the Hammerers, where Stubborn actually means Stubborn ;) .

[Vikingkingq]

Tossing out some random ideas for BG abilities, in four categories.

Hatred Generators
How do you start building that Hatred? Just taking damage isn't going to do it - well, maybe for PVE but even then you need some starting AP to work with, and obviously this is a key thing for PVP. Some ideas:
-Sworn Sword: activated ability, targets an ally for a short period of time. All damage done to that ally generates Hatred. Perhaps at higher tiers crowd control effects and debuffs will also generate Hatred.
-Loathing: passive ability, all crowd control effects applied to the BG generate Hatred.
-First To Fall: activated ability, the inverse of Sworn Sword; for a short time, all damage done by a targeted opponent will generate Hatred, no matter who receives the damage.
-Malicious Intent: activated ability, generates a small, fixed amount of Hatred on command to give the BG something to work with.

These are a bit too altruistic for the Black Guard, although I like Loathing. Let's see if we can't work some up that are a bit more selfish, spiteful, and properly Druchii.

Treacherous Strike: activated ability. Melee attack that only works on targets that are out of combat with you. Damage is increased by X% when attacking from rear/flank. Damage dealt adds to Hatred.
Pin the Worm: activated ability. Melee attack that knocks down target for 3 seconds, all damage done to target in those three seconds adds to Hatred.
Hamstring: activated ability. Melee attack that reduces run speed by 10% and adds to Hatred. Only works on targets that are out of combat with you. Adds to Hatred, and all further Hatred-increasing abilities are 10% more effective. Can stack up to three times.


Protective Abilities
Psychopathic murderer or not, a Black Guard is a Black Guard. The class should have ways to prevent and lower incoming damage, both to themselves and others around them.
-Forbid: activated ability; the BG targets an ally. While the BG lives, all opponents pay a significantly higher AP cost to target that ally with spells or abilities.
-Will To Hate: activated ability; for a time, all damage taken is reduced, and generates a little bit of extra Hatred. Requires a decent amount of Hatred already built up.
-Black Mockery: the BG's taunt. While under the influence of this taunt, players pay significantly more AP to attack any other target. (Not sure if this mechanic is already in use!) Has obvious PVE effects
-Iron Thorns: activated ability; the Guard steps in front of an ally and uses his halberd as a barrier, causing the next few sources of damage to that target to instead hit the Guard. Also deals a small amount of damage to melee attackers, generating substantial threat in PVE. A fairly high Hatred cost.


Again, let's get a bit more Druchii about this.

Storm of Hatred: Activated ability. The Black Guard launches a swirling attack around himself that stuns enemies struck by the attack for three seconds. Any damage dealt to targets during that time increases Hatred.
Devoted Bodyguard: Activated ability. The Black Guard applies his parry rating to a target ally for the next five seconds.
Cruel Riposte: Activated ability, usable only within 2 seconds of parrying a blow. The Black Guard makes a strong melee attack that builds Hatred and has a chance to disarm the opponent for four seconds.

[Blaze]

These are a bit too altruistic for the Black Guard, although I like Loathing. Let's see if we can't work some up that are a bit more selfish, spiteful, and properly Druchii.

Treacherous Strike: activated ability. Melee attack that only works on targets that are out of combat with you. Damage is increased by X% when attacking from rear/flank. Damage dealt adds to Hatred.
Pin the Worm: activated ability. Melee attack that knocks down target for 3 seconds, all damage done to target in those three seconds adds to Hatred.
Hamstring: activated ability. Melee attack that reduces run speed by 10% and adds to Hatred. Only works on targets that are out of combat with you. Adds to Hatred, and all further Hatred-increasing abilities are 10% more effective. Can stack up to three times.

Storm of Hatred: Activated ability. The Black Guard launches a swirling attack around himself that stuns enemies struck by the attack for three seconds. Any damage dealt to targets during that time increases Hatred.
Devoted Bodyguard: Activated ability. The Black Guard applies his parry rating to a target ally for the next five seconds.
Cruel Riposte: Activated ability, usable only within 2 seconds of parrying a blow. The Black Guard makes a strong melee attack that builds Hatred and has a chance to disarm the opponent for four seconds.

I like these. Well thought out abilities that would help the Black Guard become a more formidable tank. One that you cant just ignore until all his friends are dead.

[Maelos]

In the presentation video for the Black Guard, Paul said that Black Guards hate everyone, all the time. Wouldn't it stand to reason then that you generate hate for merely being in combat with/proximity of those you hate? This is not in lieu of generating hate by damaging and being damaged by your opponents, merely an addition. This would definitely help to address any issues with a lack of hate generation because you aren't being attacked. You may not be as powerful as you would be if you were getting whacked on in the thick of things, but you aren't entirely ignorable either.

[Iwaxmybelly]

-First To Fall: activated ability, the inverse of Sworn Sword; for a short time, all damage done by a targeted opponent will generate Hatred, no matter who receives the damage.

This one sounds awesome. Very Black Guard as well. He hates everybody and everything they (the specific target) do makes the black guard hate them more. Sounds like a well balanced as well as a cool ability. Only question is what the Black Guard will be doing while hating this person? Probably attacking something, most likely this target. If he would be allowed to do nothing the ability would be next to useless, but giving too much freedom could easily make the Black Guard overpowered. You'd just slam this onto a witch hunter or engineer and than go off slashing the healer.

Should have a relatively long cool down as well, should be able to use it at least once in every fight (maybe two if the fight stretches out) but should be far from spammable.

That being said I think this ability would kick :p

[Shadowform]

hmmm, I would say

- "Peka-BOO, I see you!": Teleporst behind the target enemy with shadowy effect. good staregy against Range Class.

- "Where is your mama now!": reduces the enemy's armor, attack and movement speed for short period of time.

- "Keep your mouth SHUT!" Curse the target for 10 seconds. Silence the enemy for the first 4 seconds. after that the target loses the slience effect. he gains the after effect of increasing his casting spells time by 20%.

- "Say Uncle!": When his health reaches 30%, the BG will Dual Weild equiping 2-handed weapons and swings them in the air like Cyclone-Mania. <<-- His Iron Button.

- "Oh no you don't!": Curse the target with a 10 seconds debuff, this curse will transfer the first healing spell that was cast on the cursed target to the BG, Healing him for the same amount that was supposed to heal the cursed target.

- "No Escape for you now!": The BG goes into the dark Void, alowing him to pass throught objects with no collision for 20 seconds.

- "Presence Of Darkness Aura": any healing spell (ally or enemy) done around the BG within 30 range will heal the BG for 5% of the casted healing spell. This Aura triggers evey 6 seconds. cannot gain 2 or more heals at once. must wait 6 seconds and absorb 5% of the healing spell.

- "Energy Burn" Burns the targets Mana/Energy/Hate/Whatever the taget generates for by small amount.
Just something I want to get it out of my chest -__-

[Zeldias]

hmmm, I would say

- "Peka-BOO, I see you!": Teleporst behind the target enemy with shadowy effect. good staregy against Range Class.

- "Where is your mama now!": reduces the enemy's armor, attack and movement speed for short period of time.

- "Keep your mouth SHUT!" Curse the target for 10 seconds. Silence the enemy for the first 4 seconds. after that the target loses the slience effect. he gains the after effect of increasing his casting spells time by 20%.

- "Say Uncle!": When his health reaches 30%, the BG will Dual Weild equiping 2-handed weapons and swings them in the air like Cyclone-Mania. <<-- His Iron Button.

- "Oh no you don't!": Curse the target with a 10 seconds debuff, this curse will transfer the first healing spell that was cast on the cursed target to the BG, Healing him for the same amount that was supposed to heal the cursed target.

- "No Escape for you now!": The BG goes into the dark Void, alowing him to pass throught objects with no collision for 20 seconds.

- "Presence Of Darkness Aura": any healing spell (ally or enemy) done around the BG within 30 range will heal the BG for 5% of the casted healing spell. This Aura triggers evey 6 seconds. cannot gain 2 or more heals at once. must wait 6 seconds and absorb 5% of the healing spell.

- "Energy Burn" Burns the targets Mana/Energy/Hate/Whatever the taget generates for by small amount.
Just something I want to get it out of my chest -__-

I'd like to add to this.

"Snap-snap and a neck roll" - The Black Guard flagrantly ignores your attempts to harm him, giving a temporary boost to his HP and decreasing your Morale.

[Motley1958]

"Don't Piss Me Off."
The Black Guard pulsates and knocks down all enemies around him. The black guard also receives a damage output buff for a short while.



Something I just thought of..it seems like it would work..