Slightly confused over role

[Dustandpolos]

I've seen most of the stuff we have so far from Leipzig, all of which clearly states that the Swordmaster is the HE tank. Well and good reasonable armour on the pictures, combined with parrying abilities and that'd be excellent. However, I then watched the Swordmaster Preview podcast, which just confused me, as Paul states that Swordmasters are all about doing lots of damage. Now normally I'd just dismiss that as a slip-up on Paul's part, but there are a couple of other odd factors; firstly, dual-wielding (as in most of the pics so far) is normally the preserve of dps types. Ok, he's no sword-and-board, but 2 weapons is usually a label for a class which aims to hit the opponant as much as possible in the shortest possible space of time. Might be nothing still, but the class description also includes no mechanism for drawing the attacks of other players in pvp. They get no grudge, no mention of disrupts and locking players down or anything along those lines. Of course it's early days yet and not much info has been released, but what we have been told is they get combos as their special feature. I might be basing this too heavily on my limited knowledge of WoW, but that seems more of a dps thing to me. I mean, combos allow you to inflict impressive damage on an enemy in fewer blows, but don't provide your allies with defensive buffs and don't help your archmage who's being pummelled by that Witch Elf - except of course by helping to kill the witch elf before she can finish off the archmage, which is really the dps solution.

I'm still fairly sure they'll be tanks, as we've been told (marketing would never have allowed such a horrendous slip-up) but any answers to the slightly confusing conradictory points I'm seeing?

[Vikingkingq]

This should help explain things:

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=443034&postcount=12

[Dustandpolos]

Ah thanks, only checked in the HE forums (where you'd expect that thread to be :p)

Still not sure how that'll fit with the melee DPS class for HE, or what's going to force other players to attack the Swordmasters instead of other characters, but I guess well see when we get more detailed skill descriptions.

[Vikingkingq]

Ah thanks, only checked in the HE forums (where you'd expect that thread to be :p)

Still not sure how that'll fit with the melee DPS class for HE, or what's going to force other players to attack the Swordmasters instead of other characters, but I guess well see when we get more detailed skill descriptions.

It's hard to tell how, because they didn't talk much about it.
One possible guess: Paul talked about them doing the Jedi force push to show how cool and better than everyone they are. It might be that Swordmasters can push people away from their allies with magic.

[Galtrok]

If you look at the podcast Paul did he states that the Swordmaster does lots of damage really, really fast so I don't know why people keep putting them as defensive melee fighters.

[Vikingkingq]

If you look at the podcast Paul did he states that the Swordmaster does lots of damage really, really fast so I don't know why people keep putting them as defensive melee fighters.

Because the Leipzig presentation powerpoint slide says so?

[Gemini]

Paul likes to exagerrate, we all know that. If they say it's a tank, than it's a tank. He might do the best damage of the tanks, who knows, but it's still a tank. Heavy armor, tank skills, armor mititagion and avoidance. If that's not a tank, I dunno what is.

[Dustandpolos]

Reading Josh's comment that Vikingkingq linked, it does sound like the Swordmaster might be the most versatile of the tanks, but that does just give me two concerns; (1) the careers are supposed to all be clearly defined roles, based on a clear gimmick and combat style. If the tank can be specced to deal good to high DPS, including dual-wielding, does this encroach on the specialist melee DPSer's role? (2) Given the strength afforded by versatility in a character, won't the Swordmaster have to be worse at a the tanking role to make up for his higher potential DPS output? Even if you can only do one or the other depending on talents, with the ability to respec. the ability to choose is a bonus in itself, and won't each option be slightly weaker than for a character with no choice, to prevent it being overpowered/too popular?

Really we need proper details of the Swordmaster and the Melee DPS to tell, but we can fill the time by guessing :D

[Jonesy]

This talk about dancing-- I'm envisioning a skill where he kind of goes into this bladedance that allows him to sort of deflect physical blows in an AoE around him, as though he's just parrying everything in range so fast that nothing gets through to his squishy friends for a few seconds.

I don't know, there's all sorts of stuff they can do. One of the Order tanks has to be the "most damaging" of the Order tanks, and Ironbreakers are tiny mountains of steel and Knights have the battlefield command/buffing thing going, so I guess that leaves the swordmaster to do his swordmastery stuff. I'm not an elf fan generally, but this class could be very cool if done well.

[kizen]

Well, since Paul talked about how they'll show off with their spells, I assume they're going to tank by using spells to disable/weaken enemies, which also increases burst damage?

The whole thing about them dancing miffed me though... it seems much more wood elfy to me. But oh well, the class looks badass.

[Vikingkingq]

Well, since Paul talked about how they'll show off with their spells, I assume they're going to tank by using spells to disable/weaken enemies, which also increases burst damage?

The whole thing about them dancing miffed me though... it seems much more wood elfy to me. But oh well, the class looks badass.

My guess is that the dancing will be similar to the different "Ways" that Eltharion, the Swordmaster special character used:

Way of the Willow Branch: Eltharion's body twists and contorts like a reed in the wind, and his sword deflects incoming blows with astounding speed, making him virtually impossible to hit. Any close combat attacks against Eltharion require 6s to hit, before any other modifications, and regardless of relative Weapons Skills or any other special rules.
Way of the Winter Breeze: Weaving his sword in a bewildering, swirling arc, Eltharion is able to guide his blade through even the most steadfast defence. Eltharion attacks at +1 to hit in close combat.
Way of the Swooping Eagle: Eltharion summons all of his speed and might into a few deadly blows. Eltharion's attacks are resolved at +2 Strength.
Way of the Breaking Storm: Unleashing his speed and strength in a flurry of blistering attacks, Eltharion rains down blow after blow on the enemy. Eltharion gains +2 Attacks.

[Dustandpolos]

That'd be cool, an AoE parry effect centred on the Swordmaster would be a great move, allowing him to effectively defend nearby allies without going down the KotBS route of command/battle-shout-based defensive buffs.

[Jonesy]

Yeah, I was looking at those, too, Viking. This one especially stuck out:

Way of the Swooping Eagle: Eltharion summons all of his speed and might into a few deadly blows. Eltharion's attacks are resolved at +2 Strength.

The little description says "powerful finishers," which, when combined with one interpretation of the "awful lot of damage very quickly" bit from the podcast, leads me to believe that swordmasters will be doing a bit of a tank-tank-tank-UNLEASH DEATH ON SOMEONE-tank-tank kind of thing. I don't know anything about actual sword fighting, but it certainly seems plausible that the career could be based around tanking for his friends with these deflections/magic skills while carefully waiting for the opportunity to just decapitate someone in one foul swoop.

Which would be awesome. Loathe though I am to invoke the spectre of WoW in the dark wilds of the WAR forums, but some of my favorite PvP action was healing on my pally and just waiting to hammer of wrath anyone the DPS got low enough. Good times.

[Galtrok]

So all you guys are saying this is the first tank that doesn't use a shield?
In past experiences a character dual wielding swords and doing lots of DPS wasn't a tank but like you said Paul does exaggerate so we'll see.

It seems to me if they were going to do a tanking class it should've been the spearmen or something like that.

[BallsOfSteel]

I love how nobody is considered a tank unless they have a shield, yet only two of the six tanks have actually been shown with shields in-game. Also, what's funny, is in real life, the more armor your body had, the less a shield did for you.

Keep in mind that in WAR, EVERY SINGLE CLASS CAN DEAL SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE! They state that with EVERY class that they release. The Archmage is still a nuker, even though it's classified as the "healer" of the high elves. Dammit, stop thinking so narrow-mindedly that all tanks should just sit there with their shield up, blocking. This isn't cut and dry. This isn't the Warrior = Tank, Rogue = Melee DPS, Hunter = Ranged DPS, Priest = Healer. This is Warhammer. Not WoW. Not Guild Wars. WAR. Every class deals damage, every class can go toe-to-toe with another. Every class has a role.

The role of "tank", so far, is named such because of the tank's running into the fray, and making sure that you can't ignore him. There are many ways to do this. The Ironbreaker (dwarf tank) sits there and hits you harder and makes you weaker the longer you ignore him/her. The Knights of the Blazing Sun (empire tank) buffs his allies and increase their morale, possibly to the point where it's next to impossible to take them down if you don't kill him/her. And finally, the Swordmaster (high elf tank) deals heavier damage than the rest quickly and efficiently, and attempts to sever your head altogether, which means you'll probably want to kill him first so he stops whacking you.

All in all, they get the same job done: you attack him first and foremost so you'll leave his allies alone, but how they go about it is different.

And just for the Destruction's sake, I shall do the same parallel for you. Black Orcs (greenskin tank) are listed as the most offensive-oriented of the D-tanks, similar to the Swordmaster. He disables you and beats the crap out of you, and the longer he wails on you, the harder he hits. The Chosen (chaos tank) pump out debuff auras and terror, and the longer they live, the more Dark Gifts they can hurl your way. Finally, the Black Guard (dark elf tank) sits there with their halberds, and the more they get damaged, the more skills they get to use against you, so they're going to go out of their way to be in YOUR way so you'll hit them. And the Black Guard is described as being the most defensive-oriented of the three tanks, just like the Ironbreaker!

So there you have it. The jobs and very loose grasp on the gameplay styles of the tanks. Regardless of how much damage they do, their job is to make you attack them, one way or another. I'd say they do it, yes?

So stop whining about how a tank can deal damage. I mean damn.

[mongoose]

Keep in mind that in WAR, EVERY SINGLE CLASS CAN DEAL SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE! They state that with EVERY class that they release. The Archmage is still a nuker, even though it's classified as the "healer" of the high elves. Dammit, stop thinking so narrow-mindedly that all tanks should just sit there with their shield up, blocking. This isn't cut and dry. This isn't the Warrior = Tank, Rogue = Melee DPS, Hunter = Ranged DPS, Priest = Healer. This is Warhammer. Not WoW. Not Guild Wars. WAR. Every class deals damage, every class can go toe-to-toe with another. Every class has a role.

Errm, <cough> nowhere has anyone official EVER stated that ALL classes will do significant damage. All will be able do do damage yes, and be expected to get into the fray to maximize their potential but significant? :rolleyes:

and not that Im interested in picking some sort of fight but the problem IS fairly cut and dry........If an Archmage can heal and nuke as well as a Bright Wizard why on earth would anyone in their right minds (other than pyromaniacs) play a BW???

There has to be a balance in all things. A tanks main role is damage mitigation. THATS the definition of the class in the simplest of terms and their primary role. So if a Swordmaster could keep up in DPS with the melee class AND mitigate damage there would be no reason to have the melee class.

So after watching the podcast and then reading Josh's little snippet Im STILL just as confused as when I was 20 mins ago. They seem like a melee DP class and the descriptions even support that but then we are told they are a tank......brain.....hurts...:x


The only saving grace in all this is the concept of sustained DPS vs burst DPS. It would appear to me that while the SM IS a tank, they will occasionally be able to unleash a can of whoop- (I would assume based on morale build up) to trounce opponents. I would expect this burst damage to be at the top of the morale meter though so they arent pulling off devastating finishing moves every 10 secs.


All that being said I see this class definitely having a broader appeal than the usual tank because on the surface they dont really look like one AND can even be geared more towards DPS than other tanks.

I also envision the SM as only wearing med-heavy armor (nothing as heavy as the Dwarven Gromril armor) and zero shield but they make up for this 'deficiency' with a combination of magic, avoidance and the ability to parry out the wazoo. :cool:

[Linkusmax]

I would like to point out swordmasters do not duel-weild.

They weild a single 2 handed Greatsword. They just move them damn fast.

[Mortissia]

Most likely the Swordmaster will build up "points" by perrying blows then unleash their damage potential with a finishing move. Just because they do a lot of damage very quickly does not mean they do a lot of steady DPS.

[Vikingkingq]

Errm, <cough> nowhere has anyone official EVER stated that ALL classes will do significant damage. All will be able do do damage yes, and be expected to get into the fray to maximize their potential but significant? :rolleyes:

I'm fairly sure that has precisely been said, and I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't in the careers q + a from Waagh!


So after watching the podcast and then reading Josh's little snippet Im STILL just as confused as when I was 20 mins ago. They seem like a melee DP class and the descriptions even support that but then we are told they are a tank......brain.....hurts...:x

The only saving grace in all this is the concept of sustained DPS vs burst DPS. It would appear to me that while the SM IS a tank, they will occasionally be able to unleash a can of whoop- (I would assume based on morale build up) to trounce opponents. I would expect this burst damage to be at the top of the morale meter though so they arent pulling off devastating finishing moves every 10 secs.

No, they've said that the DPS is coming from "powerful finishing moves," not morale attacks.

[Vikingkingq]

I would like to point out swordmasters do not duel-weild.

They weild a single 2 handed Greatsword. They just move them damn fast.

Well, the concept art used as an introduction certainly indicates dual-wielding.

[Grimfell Gromgear]

All that being said I see this class definitely having a broader appeal than the usual tank because on the surface they dont really look like one AND can even be geared more towards DPS than other tanks.


Which means... High Elves are going to get to enjoy the fun of all the bad tanks they'll get who have no idea what their class is supposed to be doing.

[Galtrok]

Well if the Swordmater is doing all this DPS imagine what the DPS class is gonna do.

I don't see a weakness in the Swordmaster class as of right now. I mean heavy armor AND crazy DPS! We on the Order side might have a powerful ally to deal with :p

[Zeldias]

Well, if the Swordmaster is a parry/avoidance monkey tank then that means it'll be harder to heal him, and he'd be more susceptible to getting bursted down.

Unless he dodges/parries the burst.

Sounds like a fun gamble.

[dutch_gamer]

Well if the Swordmater is doing all this DPS imagine what the DPS class is gonna do.

I don't see a weakness in the Swordmaster class as of right now. I mean heavy armor AND crazy DPS! We on the Destruction side might have a handful to deal with :p

They probably don't even wear heavy armor. Their armor looks very similar to the armor of the Warrior Priest, which is medium armor. You don't need to wear heavy armor to be a tank. The Swordmaster will probably have other ways to mitigate damage. The word tank really needs to get redefined, because it really doesn't mean low damage, heavy armor and a shield. You can achieve damage mitigation in a completely different way. I am glad that Mythic dares to think outside of the box.

[mongoose]

I'm fairly sure that has precisely been said, and I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't in the careers q + a from Waagh!

Well you will pardon me if I dont take your or Balls word for it because I have never read nor heard a Dev say it. So either link me proof or I stand by my statement.

(and if you link me a video of Paul saying it then thats automatic disqualification :rolleyes:)


No, they've said that the DPS is coming from "powerful finishing moves," not morale attacks.

Do yo not understand how the system works? A powerful finishing move and morale attack could be one in the same thing or they could just cost a lot of AP. Weather or not its a high morale attack or a costly AP attack it matters not. The only important thing is that either will be costly enough that you wont see the SM using those moves every 10 secs ;)

[Vikingkingq]

Well you will pardon me if I dont take your or Balls word for it because I have never read nor heard a Dev say it. So either link me proof or I stand by my statement.

(and if you link me a video of Paul saying it then thats automatic disqualification :rolleyes:)

http://www.curse.com/videos/details/578/ - watch/read the powerpoint when they discuss Melee Tanks. At 1:38. Specifically note: "Slow but powerful attacks."


Do yo not understand how the system works? A powerful finishing move and morale attack could be one in the same thing or they could just cost a lot of AP. Weather or not its a high morale attack or a costly AP attack it matters not. The only important thing is that either will be costly enough that you wont see the SM using those moves every 10 secs ;)

No, they're not the same. Morale attacks are standalone abilities, separate from the regular ability system, and can be fired off whenever you have enough Morale. Finishing moves are specifically related to combo systems that have openers-builders-finishers - look at the Black Orc's abilities for an example.

As for the Swordmaster, his combo system works by building up Balance for his finishing attacks.

[Scerce]

One problem people seem to have with any class other than "DPS" doing DPS is they think in terms of the Holy Trinity.

Healing. Tanking. DPS.

They think in terms of old-world, unimaginative, PvE archetypes. They think in terms of one enormous, stationary endboss that must be taken down, and the three basic things you need to do it. WAR, however, has flexibility because it is a PvP game. It's not about whittilng down the life of a big stupid dragon, piece by piece.

In fluid PvP play, there are many more things to take account of. Mobility skills for one. Get in and out of combat faster than anyone else, more easily chase wounded enemies, more easily escape bad situations to fight another day. Situational powers to interrupt, slow, or otherwise disrupt your enemies battle plans (including moves that reposition your or your enemies' units). R/P/S gameplay mechanics which allow certain classes to directly counter some of the more vital moves and abilities of another class (which in a balanced PvE environment would be taboo), making the countering character a target of importance, but confusing the countered character's priorities, since the counterer isn't a tank or healer.

-----

I for one will believe that every class can do respectable damage until I see otherwise with my own two eyes. After all, if Mythic knows half as much about PvP MMOs as they say they do, they should also be aware of all these alternate sources of value that fall outside the Holy Trinity, and be capable of implementing them so that "DPS" is a given, not a class skill.

[Nerothos]

Which means... High Elves are going to get to enjoy the fun of all the bad tanks they'll get who have no idea what their class is supposed to be doing.

QFT.

I'll be trying to protect my allies. I'll know my role.

But 90% of the others won't. :(

[mongoose]

http://www.curse.com/videos/details/578/ - watch/read the powerpoint when they discuss Melee Tanks. At 1:38. Specifically note: "Slow but powerful attacks."

Not exactly sure what that has to do with claiming that a Dev said "EVERY SINGLE CLASS CAN DEAL SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE!"........which was the point of contention.


No, they're not the same. Morale attacks are standalone abilities, separate from the regular ability system, and can be fired off whenever you have enough Morale. Finishing moves are specifically related to combo systems that have openers-builders-finishers - look at the Black Orc's abilities for an example.

As for the Swordmaster, his combo system works by building up Balance for his finishing attacks.

When I said "one in the same thing" I didnt mean literally. I meant that both AP and morale could have powerful DPS attacks avialable to the SM. I agree that they specifically said finishing move which does imply AP but Im not willing to agree that there wont be any powerful morale attacks in the SMs arsenal.

The point still stands though that regardless of source (morale or AP) the SM, unlike the DPS class, will not be doing powerful finishing moves continuiously.

[VeriusCarth]

Not exactly sure what that has to do with claiming that a Dev said "EVERY SINGLE CLASS CAN DEAL SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE!"........which was the point of contention.




When I said "one in the same thing" I didnt mean literally. I meant that both AP and morale could have powerful DPS attacks avialable to the SM. I agree that they specifically said finishing move which does imply AP but Im not willing to agree that there wont be any powerful morale attacks in the SMs arsenal.

The point still stands though that regardless of source (morale or AP) the SM, unlike the DPS class, will not be doing powerful finishing moves continuiously.

Wait and see is all I've got to say, really.

[RockpapperWaagh]

runepriest wasnt doing alot of damage when i played him (though it took 3 greenskins to take me down)

however this isnt about runepriests


this is the PERFECT elven tank. nothing is sillier than a human orc and elf standing next to each other all in the same tank gear. (ala wow)

hell even wow doesnt have all its tank classes use a shield. Druid, no shield. the new paladin er i mean death knight no shield.



this is an awsome tank class for the HE's to bad if his armor gets dirty he will cry and run away. LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

[VeriusCarth]

runepriest wasnt doing alot of damage when i played him (though it took 3 greenskins to take me down)

however this isnt about runepriests


this is the PERFECT elven tank. nothing is sillier than a human orc and elf standing next to each other all in the same tank gear. (ala wow)

hell even wow doesnt have all its tank classes use a shield. Druid, no shield. the new paladin er i mean death knight no shield.



this is an awsome tank class for the HE's to bad if his armor gets dirty he will cry and run away. LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

Except that this is better, because all of the races could be the same cookie-cutter warrior. Besides, as druid, I know from personal experience, that most "Can I try to tank?" questions were answered with, "STFU! Stop taking my job!" even though about 30 minutes ago they were all hyped about their DPS. =/

I'm glad that I can choose a non sword + board tank in this game, that's clearly designated as a TANK. Without listening to people go, "Lawl, you're not a tank!"

Swordmaster as a tank is a gift. :)

[Remnant]

I think that, this class is going to be really...

Really... really really really really really really really really really really really really really OMG really...

overpopulated.

I have no support for this claim whatsoever beyond the fact that they've smooshed Jedis and Elves together.

[Centuri]

Just wanted to point out that the dual wielding DD tank does work well in FFXI with the ninja class. High evasion and parry. Uses ninja magic for damage, buffs and debuffs and to create shadows of himself to absorb incoming attacks etc.

I do hope we get some gameplay videos of one in action to really see how they fare in combat. I just hope its not more of that clunky looking pre-alpha stuff that they keep tossing us in the newsletter.

[Gemini]

I don't think any one class will be severly overpopulated. We have 24, and each has it's own "cool" factor that will appeal to diffrent people. Of my top five list of classes I think might have the most people, Swordmaster ranks no where on there. Maybe number 6. Maybe.

[Vikingkingq]

I don't think any one class will be severly overpopulated. We have 24, and each has it's own "cool" factor that will appeal to diffrent people. Of my top five list of classes I think might have the most people, Swordmaster ranks no where on there. Maybe number 6. Maybe.

At the moment, the number of "cool" careers is really, really high. I won't say 24, because I'm not a Painglossian fan, but it's up there. Swordmasters are cool, but so are Witch Hunters, and if Shadow Warriors come in, those will draw large numbers, and...etc.

This factor alone will prevent over-population. Rather than having a few fun careers and a bunch of drudgery careers, you'll have relatively close spreads of population.

[Sinfjotle]

Just wanted to point out that the dual wielding DD tank does work well in FFXI with the ninja class. High evasion and parry. Uses ninja magic for damage, buffs and debuffs and to create shadows of himself to absorb incoming attacks etc.


And Square did that on accident! This one is actually being designed to fill that role.

[Wolfbane]

Swordmaster can and will use shields. Swordmaster can not dual wield. It was stated that all tanking classes use 1H+Shield or 2H.

[Delolith]

Swordmaster can and will use shields. Swordmaster can not dual wield. It was stated that all tanking classes use 1H+Shield or 2H.

While I agree with this I think compared to the other tanking classes a Swordmaster will loose less tanking abilities by using a 2h weapon due to the fact they are designed around that build cause this is the iconic path for them. Sure the sword + shield SM will be a tad tougher than the other ones...but Swordmasters have moves that can be performed only by using a Greatweapon (2H) and that includes tanking maneuvers.

Delolith

[Origomar]

While i do agree tanks should do dps look at the video below. That is more damage than ANY class ive seen even ranged dps. He (barely but does) did more dps than the chaos marauder video ive seen, may be a level diffrence but still look at just the regular melee attacks...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUwKddC92hY

But then again i guess i dont really have to worry about it because IM ON THEIR SIDE!!!

[Grondoth]

Those dummies may have real low toughness and armour.

[Ranien]

I would doubt the Sword Master would output more damage than the dps classes with them being of the tanking archetype, but they will more than likely out do the other tanking careers in damage since they're more focused on their Greatsword.

[Delolith]

Do not focus only on the single hits. Swordmaster might have a bit higher hits let's say compared to marauder...but I doubt he will be hitting as fast as the last one. In the end he will have far less DPS than the actual DPS class.

Delolith

[Origomar]

In a video i saw i saw a ranged dps (BW i tink cant really remember) And it got hit for around 3k probably was doing dmg to itself and it was almost dead. soo it probably has 4k health and a swordmater should be able to go around and practicaly two shot ranged dps? Poor sorcs i would really pity them if thats how much dmg these guys actually do. Because supposidly ranged dps can kill tanks.

Oh and he may have higher dps but thats like (Guna compare WoW here...) Saying a MS warrior does less dps to a mage than a fury warrior does. We all know fury warriors in raids do more pure dps but the MS warrior hits alot higher and thus does a lot more dmg and is much m ore viable for pvp.

But you may be right they probably have really bad damage reduction skills but they cant be much wrose than RPDS.

[Kaeldor]

In a video i saw i saw a ranged dps (BW i tink cant really remember) And it got hit for around 3k probably was doing dmg to itself and it was almost dead. soo it probably has 4k health and a swordmater should be able to go around and practicaly two shot ranged dps? Poor sorcs i would really pity them if thats how much dmg these guys actually do. Because supposidly ranged dps can kill tanks.

Oh and he may have higher dps but thats like (Guna compare WoW here...) Saying a MS warrior does less dps to a mage than a fury warrior does. We all know fury warriors in raids do more pure dps but the MS warrior hits alot higher and thus does a lot more dmg and is much m ore viable for pvp.

But you may be right they probably have really bad damage reduction skills but they cant be much wrose than RPDS.

I really wouldn't judge the SM damage capabilities from a vid where he is hitting a naked dummy. I really doubt a sword master will run around two-shotting RDPS classes. That would be a major change in direction, compared ot what we have been told so far. But of course I don't know either.

[Eleazar]

While i do agree tanks should do dps look at the video below. That is more damage than ANY class ive seen even ranged dps. He (barely but does) did more dps than the chaos marauder video ive seen, may be a level diffrence but still look at just the regular melee attacks...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUwKddC92hY
This is a very old video and he's showing off the Swordmaster abilities and mechanics, not testing DPS.

[Skrunks]

I think this has already been said, but you're not fighting NPCS, you're fighting other players. Abilities that build 'threat' won't work on other players. I'm a fire mage pvp junky in WoW and from experience, the other players aren't that stupid. The second they see me 2 shotting thier guys, they immediatly target me. Half the time the tanks are completly ignored because thier damage output is low. So how do you make hate with another player? I think dealing stupid amounts of damage and two shotting thier guys does that job pretty well. If the guy that does the most damage in your group is your tank, then you can bet your asses that everyone will try and bring him down first. It works perfectly in my opionin.

Plus I hate the MMORPG holy trinity. Use some imagination dumbtards. I like the enginuity that this game is displaying thus far.

EDIT: A thought I had. Elves aren't reknown for thier toughness. In the Table Top game, elves were the most fragile of the races, but had some of the best armor, were the fastest, did some of the most damage and were the most skilled making them hard to hit. Translate that to an MMORPG and you get a class that can deal a heck of alot of damage and deflect 95% of your attacks, but when you DO land an attack, he doesn't respond well to it at all.

[Delolith]

I think this has already been said, but you're not fighting NPCS, you're fighting other players. Abilities that build 'threat' won't work on other players. I'm a fire mage pvp junky in WoW and from experience, the other players aren't that stupid. The second they see me 2 shotting thier guys, they immediatly target me. Half the time the tanks are completly ignored because thier damage output is low. So how do you make hate with another player? I think dealing stupid amounts of damage and two shotting thier guys does that job pretty well. If the guy that does the most damage in your group is your tank, then you can bet your asses that everyone will try and bring him down first. It works perfectly in my opionin.

Plus I hate the MMORPG holy trinity. Use some imagination dumbtards. I like the enginuity that this game is displaying thus far.

EDIT: A thought I had. Elves aren't reknown for thier toughness. In the Table Top game, elves were the most fragile of the races, but had some of the best armor, were the fastest, did some of the most damage and were the most skilled making them hard to hit. Translate that to an MMORPG and you get a class that can deal a heck of alot of damage and deflect 95% of your attacks, but when you DO land an attack, he doesn't respond well to it at all.

Still if the most resilient character (not compared to other tanks though) could dish out the most dmg, it would create balancing problems. I think SM have already good mechanics to make someone target them. They will be doing significantly more dmg than the other tanks (maybe a tad less to a Blackguard with full hatred) but they are tanks after all. Their dmg output has to be comprimised with their survivability. This is nothing like a stupid WoW warrior clone with sword+board...and nothing as stupid as a 2 shoting warrior either (I was playing a MS warrior in WoW back in 2005 when I stopped the game). None will 2 shot anyone...and that won't be a tank for sure. The fights will last at least 10 seconds between anyone 1 vs 1.

Delolith

[Origomar]

In a thing i watched they said a pvp battle would be around 30-1:30 seconds although they couldve been talking about a group battle :) i wanst paying too much attention and yes that would call for balancing problems x.x

[Skrunks]

Still if the most resilient character (not compared to other tanks though) could dish out the most dmg, it would create balancing problems. I think SM have already good mechanics to make someone target them. They will be doing significantly more dmg than the other tanks (maybe a tad less to a Blackguard with full hatred) but they are tanks after all. Their dmg output has to be comprimised with their survivability. This is nothing like a stupid WoW warrior clone with sword+board...and nothing as stupid as a 2 shoting warrior either (I was playing a MS warrior in WoW back in 2005 when I stopped the game). None will 2 shot anyone...and that won't be a tank for sure. The fights will last at least 10 seconds between anyone 1 vs 1.

Delolith

Ahh, but why the hells is balance needed? You might say WELL DUH BALANCE IS NEEDED.

Balance is only needed between cross faction battles.

Unlike every other MMORPG since the dawn of time, Each race has it's own unique set of classes. Those classes only need to be balanced to the oposing sides classes. So take a Swordmaster who does a ton of damage by his graceful movements, and parrys most incoming attacks, and pit him agianst any of the other high elf classes. It doesn't really matter if the sword master could pwn them all, thier on the same side. But take a black orc who pounds the sword master in the head with a club, nocking him totally off balance and removing all semblance of grace, then the sword master has no defence or offence.... leaving him totally vulnerable to a beating. It really doesn't matter if no other class in the game can beat SM as long as at least one other class on the oposing faction can totally wipe the floor with him.

Those are my thoughts anyway. I'm just hoping that this game goes as far away from the holy trinity and MMORPG Archtypes as possible.

[Delolith]

Ahh, but why the hells is balance needed? You might say WELL DUH BALANCE IS NEEDED.

Balance is only needed between cross faction battles.

Unlike every other MMORPG since the dawn of time, Each race has it's own unique set of classes. Those classes only need to be balanced to the oposing sides classes. So take a Swordmaster who does a ton of damage by his graceful movements, and parrys most incoming attacks, and pit him agianst any of the other high elf classes. It doesn't really matter if the sword master could pwn them all, thier on the same side. But take a black orc who pounds the sword master in the head with a club, nocking him totally off balance and removing all semblance of grace, then the sword master has no defence or offence.... leaving him totally vulnerable to a beating. It really doesn't matter if no other class in the game can beat SM as long as at least one other class on the oposing faction can totally wipe the floor with him.

Those are my thoughts anyway. I'm just hoping that this game goes as far away from the holy trinity and MMORPG Archtypes as possible.

While I do agree about the balance between factions I doubt that by giving a resilient character amazing offense with no expense the balance issue will arise to your battle with the Black Orc too. If the black orc cannot do enough dmg to the Swordmaster since the later one will have as good defense as any other tank, even if the Black Orc stuns him...the few hits that the swordmaster will pass to the black orc will be so devastating that will tip the battle again towards the Swordmaster. Not to mention he has some abilities that bypass armour and count as magical attacks (Ethereal Dance if I remember correctly). Now you see that a balance issue would not affect just in faction but allover. If they had to balance an overpowered Swordmaster so that the HE faction would be as strong as the others they would have to diminish the power of the other HE classes...which would not be very wise if we don't want to see a whole army of Swordmasters alone. While I do agree that we need to escape from the holy trinity mentality...i am pretty sure Swordmaster already is far from it. What I am trying to say is...if the characters have a potential of 140% and Chaos chosen is a 90% defense 50% offense the swordmaster will fall into the chategory of 70% offense and 70% defense while the DPS class will probably fall in the 90-100% offense and 40-50% defense. These are rough numbers but you understand what i am saying. They have absolutely no reason to give a class higher potentiality than the others (for example a Swordmaster to operate at 150-160% while others at 140%).

Delolith

P.S forgot to mention that if you are playing an overpowered class when you encounter a 1 vs 1 fight at some points (rare since this is an RvR game but you will encounter them), you will mostly win against anyone unless you doing something wrong. That will make a very very unhappy opposition and I don't think Mythic is gonna overlook this.

I want as well the swordmaster to be an amazing class and pawn faces, but I want to pawn faces because the class is played correctly not because it is overpowered. If you say the same I am with you....otherwise I would prefer balance or rock/paper system and let the player skill shine.

[Skrunks]

My point was though that the Swordmaster can pwn every other melee class if all his defences are parry's/evades giving them a potential of 100% offence 100% defence (givin your 140% model), but they would be significantly squishyier agianst ranged classes because even if they can deflect say one magic bolt and 1 arrow every 15 seconds, that would still leave a window open for a stunning ranged hit or a powerful blast. Rebalancing the equation to 70% offence - 70% agianst ranged classes. In the SM description it says the best way to beat a sword master is to throw them off balance or take them down with ranged attacks. I'm sure that a stun will make a Sword Master lose all of his accumulated balance and nerf it's pew pew attacks. The key is, like you said, skill. The class wouldn't necesarily be overpowered, but with some skill you could any melee class but get by any long range class. I personaly like the idea.

(and I like the idea of skill vs. overpowered)

[Delolith]

My point was though that the Swordmaster can pwn every other melee class if all his defences are parry's/evades giving them a potential of 100% offence 100% defence (givin your 140% model), but they would be significantly squishyier agianst ranged classes because even if they can deflect say one magic bolt and 1 arrow every 15 seconds, that would still leave a window open for a stunning ranged hit or a powerful blast. Rebalancing the equation to 70% offence - 70% agianst ranged classes. In the SM description it says the best way to beat a sword master is to throw them off balance or take them down with ranged attacks. I'm sure that a stun will make a Sword Master lose all of his accumulated balance and nerf it's pew pew attacks. The key is, like you said, skill. The class wouldn't necesarily be overpowered, but with some skill you could any melee class but get by any long range class. I personaly like the idea.

(and I like the idea of skill vs. overpowered)

The same discription is given for Chaos Chosen and Black Orc too. So if that is the case I don't see how Swordmasters should have an edge over these classes. For sure the only reason I see them having an edge is the fact that they have armour bypassing hits (magic based). SM will have an edge over other melee non tanking classes anyway due to their abilities....so I don't really see a nessecity for 100% offense and 100% defense. Ahhh and if you think the 100% defense will not actually protect them from ranged or spells (since all have to do with a stat called toughness that decreases dmg in general) I think you are mistaken. And with 100% offense when you reach those ranged people it won't be a nice sight to behold, because you will reach them since WAR is CC low game. So realisticly I don't see this happening. However, you will have the tools to beat whoever you want if you play your cards correctly...even ranged dpsers. If you go through all the known up to now SM abilities you will see we have offenssive antiranged abilities (deep incision), anticaster ones (wispering wind), anti tank abilities (ensorcelled blow, ethereal dance) and defenssive anti-ranged/caster (Wall of darting steel). So yea they will be an amazing class a fact based mainly on the wide variety of skills.

Delolith

[Skrunks]

I actually haven't done a whole lot of research into class stuff. Just what's said here and the comment about roles, lol. I don't really know anything about abilities we'll get. SOUNSD LIKE FUN THOUGH!!!!!

[Delolith]

I actually haven't done a whole lot of research into class stuff. Just what's said here and the comment about roles, lol. I don't really know anything about abilities we'll get. SOUNSD LIKE FUN THOUGH!!!!!

Check this thread and give a thanks to Eleazar for assembling/organizing and posting this info:

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23392 (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23392)