Swordmaster fighting animation concerns

[Thalion]

no more relevant

[EngraDeathsword]

I liked them...>.>...<.<...^.^...oh my god...What have I done...I will be demolished

[Aeldor]

To be perfectly honest, if you look into the lore just a tiny, tiny little bit, you will see that Elf bodies are actually significantly differant to those of human beings. It is stated in many differant places that they fight in a very fluid, dance-like way that would be utterly impractical to any man, and indeed would be impossible. What i'm trying to get at is that even though you know stuff about 'human' fight styles, this means absolutely nothing when concerning the way an alien race uses a sword.

You may have noticed that in the vido where the elf is spinning his sword like a wild thing, he is also creating a barrier of pure force. This is part of the 'deflect arrows' ability that High Elf Swordmasters get, and is another thing that a human is utterly incapable of. (Magic not being real and all.....)

Personally i like the addition of the unnatural. One of the biggest things people dont realise about the High Elves is that they are totally NOT just people with long ears. They are completely alien in the way they move, think and act. Getting annoyed at this is similar to getting annoyed that Orcs cannot be fencing masters who sit around drinking tea. Its just not the way they are.

[Avathos]

Thalion,

You have to remember that this is fantasy based game, not a sword emulator program. The guys who made the animation dont have the training and experience that you have. In addition, please remember that the "elves" just came out. There still a lot of tuning that can be done to imrpove them. I love fancy animations, but personally I am more concern in balance and game play rather than eye candy

[Thalion]

To be perfectly honest, if you look into the lore just a tiny, tiny little bit, you will see that Elf bodies are actually significantly differant to those of human beings. It is stated in many differant places that they fight in a very fluid, dance-like way that would be utterly impractical to any man, and indeed would be impossible. What i'm trying to get at is that even though you know stuff about 'human' fight styles, this means absolutely nothing when concerning the way an alien race uses a sword.

You may have noticed that in the vido where the elf is spinning his sword like a wild thing, he is also creating a barrier of pure force. This is part of the 'deflect arrows' ability that High Elf Swordmasters get, and is another thing that a human is utterly incapable of. (Magic not being real and all.....)

Personally i like the addition of the unnatural. One of the biggest things people dont realise about the High Elves is that they are totally NOT just people with long ears. They are completely alien in the way they move, think and act. Getting annoyed at this is similar to getting annoyed that Orcs cannot be fencing masters who sit around drinking tea. Its just not the way they are.

A sword is a sword. If a human, and elf, an orc, or whatever "alien" thing you want would spin it like that, they provide a specific sort of opening which you can exploit regardless of who you are. Spinning a 6 foot sword is NOT a fighting sytle, its a technique (waza), which is nonsense as far as my education goes. Just by calling it unnatural, you cannot make it realistic from another race's point of view. Its not like elves have 6 arms.

You can always opt to say "hey, its magic! When they cast their spells, it becomes the uberest sword technique ever!". This I can understand. It still looks bad to my eyes, but hell, maybe that's just me.

[Thalion]

Thalion,

You have to remember that this is fantasy based game, not a sword emulator program. The guys who made the animation dont have the training and experience that you have.

I said that myself in my first post. But I still believe there is an intermediate point you can get between reality and pure fantasy.

[Grimfell Gromgear]

As was put in above, elfs aren't just tall thin humans, I don't think you can really claim that experience in understanding the preffered method of combat for humans would allow you to determine how an elf would fight at it's peak, their bodies aren't as strong as most of the other races *cough cough* Dwarfs *cough cough*, but they possess an amazing amount of dexterity and flexibility.

Besides, you freely admit that there's more to be learned with every year of training, who's to say what things would come out at hundreds of years. I mean, maybe they just reach the point where they understand the weaknesses of positions so well they purposefully expose themselves to direct enemy attacks at their vital points understanding the elaborate chain of counterattacks and dodges that will lead to an eventual vital strike for them. Perhaps the obvious openings they've exposed are just part of the elaborate dance they've planned.

Also, I've always wondered about Elves personally... consider a Swordmaster who's been training for hundreds of years is capable of being taken out by humans who've maybe been training for all of five to ten at most? They seem to be a pretty weak race to have to put all that time into focused training just to be as good as the other races. (Ooooh! Elf Bashing yeah!)

But yeah, aside from all that, I know how the arguments go. I've got a friend who's a total gun nut and every movie or video game he see's he just whines the whole time about how the guns aren't the right ones for those troops, or they aren't holding them right, or the clipsize isn't right, or that no person would be that accurate with them... I mean, it's fantasy, try not to take things so seriously. 'I'm fine with people throwing fireballs, with giant orcs springing up from spores in the ground, with demons wandering in the chaos wastes... but that elf better hold that sword right or I'll be ticked.'

[ApelsiN]

Well.. I Agree in everything Big "T" said!
Some anmations in games look pretty easy and dumb... (easy in the way that you could easly interuppt them)

[Aeldor]

Is it not at all possible that what is an opening to a human, is a lure or a feight to an elf? Also, the speed at which an elf is supposed to be able to move means getting that opening is more difficult than with a human opponent.

[Jeralin]

Maybe he's spinning it so fast that your eyes can't grasp how fast it's going, leading you to believe there's a gap you could get through in his guard, but it would simply result in you being ripped apart by his blender-dance-of-DOOM?

Seriously though... For all we know, that animation in the video wasn't even an attack style, he could have been casting some self buffs.

[Aeldor]

Maybe he's spinning it so fast that your eyes can't grasp how fast it's going, leading you to believe there's a gap you could get through in his guard, but it would simply result in you being ripped apart by his blender-dance-of-DOOM?

Seriously though... For all we know, that animation in the video wasn't even an attack style, he could have been casting some self buffs.

In another video it is explained that the move he was performing there was an 'Arrow Block' move. The swords are moving fast enough to deflect arrows. Simple.

[Jeralin]

In another video it is explained that the move he was performing there was an 'Arrow Block' move. The swords are moving fast enough to deflect arrows. Simple.

Ahhh, case closed imo.

[Derfel]

Shock horror, combat isn't realistic!

perhaps to make it more realistic, Sword Masters should have various one shot abilities, because lets face it, if they stab you through the heart, or decapitate you, you're not just going to 'take damage' and carry on fighting at full strength hoping someone nearby will heal you.

The animations are designed to look cool, rather than effective. Paul referred to Sword Masters as 'proto jedi', and I bet you could also lay into the Jedi light saber fights in the star wars films/games?

[Malal]

Its just you. It may change before release or get refined, but frankly animations are supposed to look impressive and draw people to a game, if they were releastic i doubt they would have the mass market appeal the designers are looking for (since the average gamer has no idea for the correct swing of a sword looks like).

[Thalion]

Ok maybe I overreact because its the only thing I saw yet. Put yourself in my shoes, as a swordsman and a huge WH fan I watch the vid of the class I'll play and only see this 5 second sword spinning move. Didn't know it was for arrow cutting/blocking as well. In that case I shouldn't talk much since I never cut arrows shot at me lol.. but there were samurai leading regiments and cutting arrows flying towards them, so I'll ask around how that was done :shock:

I'm eager to see how the other animations go though.

[Grimfell Gromgear]

Ok maybe I overreact because its the only thing I saw yet. Put yourself in my shoes, as a swordsman and a huge WH fan I watch the vid of the class I'll play and only see this 5 second sword spinning move. Didn't know it was for arrow cutting/blocking as well. In that case I shouldn't talk much since I never cut arrows shot at me lol.. but there were samurai leading regiments and cutting arrows flying towards them, so I'll ask around how that was done :shock:

I'm eager to see how the other animations go though.

If you want to see some truly ridiculous swordplay (At least I think it is... maybe to someone with more swordplay experience than I) watch some of the videos for sword combat in Hellgate London.

Here, just click on any of the melee weapons on this page and on the video next to them, I don't know if any have the 'running spin move' I've seen in other videos though... I reccomend shock blade for the most twirling.
http://www.hellgatelondon.com/weapons/#w-31


And I sympathize. As an engineer, when I watch movies like the Star Wars Prequels, every five seconds I have to be like 'Who the hell would put a reactor for a ship right next to a docking bay? That is perhaps, the stupidest design descision I've ever seen! Put the most important and volatile component of a vehicle next to the spot that has the most accidents...' Once you gain knowledge of something, you just have to learn to grin and bear it though...

[Malal]

oh and actually, the animation is kinda realistic....you just dont understand the purpose of it. It is actually a defence against arrows and other projectiles as explained here http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/10625 in that vid from another thread, it takes a while to get to it about but it dose explain it. ....ok mayb not realistic becuase its using a sword to deflect projectiles, but an elf with inhuman reflex's and a long time to practice might be able to :) It isnt a melee move.

[logicalmayhem]

hay yeah ill agree they need some animation tweaking watch
http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/10625

has some good animations and a bit of stuff

[shorn]

I have come upon a quandary.

On one hand I would very much enjoy never seeing people complain about inane on a forum again.

On the other hand forums would almost cease to exist should that happen.

Truly a riddle for the ages.

[Vikingkingq]

A few points:

1. I have seen people using swords in such a fashion, not as an actual combat maneuver, but as an ornamentation, just to look cool. That's how elves fight - they turn the impractical ornamentation into the combat maneuver because they care about the aesthetics of swordplay more than the practicalities.

2. Having your swordplay generate magical energy does sort of change the potentials for how swordplay would work. Sure, the guard stance where he holds the blade with both hands doesn't look practical, but if it allows you to push someone back 10 yards with a thought, that changes how you look at it.

3. Swordsmasters are in fact pretty damn kickass on the TT, even more so in the upcoming elf release where they'll get 2 Attacks and Always Strike First. So 2 St 5 attacks striking first at WS 6 is pretty damn good.

4. I like the damn animations, and I'm really a bit ticked off at people who run them down. To be honest, I think they're at par with that of WoW, and we've still got quite some time to tweak before launch.

EDIT: AHA! Check this out: http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/10625

It's an actual ability, used against archers to ward off arrows. It's called Wall of Dancing Steel.

[VeriusCarth]

As a simple sword spin to deflect arrows, and something similar to what I've done in my own practices with a sword, during the course of learning Kung Fu, it seems like it'd work just fine for that. After all, he's not trying to hit someone, he's trying to spin his sword fast enough, with magic, to deflect an arrow, rather than the usual crap of "Hah! Arrows!" *One slash cuts in out of the air* So, I'd have to say what they've done in terms of an arrow block is much more reasonable than saying it's some special melee attack.

Nothing to worry about yet. :)

[Aeldor]

Keeping on the topic of his Arrow deflections, it makes for interesting possibilities as to how the swordmaster will work as a tank.
Perhaps instead of the classic 'stand and get hit till one of you dies from it' perhaps he will work a lot more at preventing the attacks from coming in the first place. Force puvshing enemies away, forming a wall of arrow deflections, leaping into combat forming a cordon of steel into which no enemy is willing to enter.
It would be totally unconventional, and, well it certainly wouldnt work in an mmo like WoW, but here...who knows.

[Jhayden]

Warhammer Fantasy Online

Warhammer Fantasy Online

MMORPG

Massively-Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game

Massively-Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game

Fantasy Game

Fantasy Game

Fantasy Game /= Realistic Sword Simulator

[Zeldias]

I'm a swordsman, too, and I think they look badass.

And this is coming from a guy who has sworn to never be an elf, nor be a member of the good/lawful faction ever again.

[Jhayden]

You'd never imagine a bunch of trained swordsmen would spend their time playing video games or posting on the internet. I call shenanigans.

[Thalion]

Warhammer Fantasy Online

Warhammer Fantasy Online

MMORPG

Massively-Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game

Massively-Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game

Fantasy Game

Fantasy Game

Fantasy Game /= Realistic Sword Simulator

You are smart. I am an idiot. Satisfied?
Thank you very much.

[Jhayden]

You are smart. I am an idiot. Satisfied?
Thank you very much.

Quite, indeed.

[Gloovish]

Spinning a 6 foot sword is NOT a fighting sytle, its a technique (waza), which is nonsense as far as my education goes.
How dare you question a master who has been training for much much longer than you have been alive!? You might think you see openings but the master has the skill to easily counter anything you could think of. The movement might seem primitive to your eye but that is deliberate. Underneath the veil of sluggish movement lay subtle rhythms imperceptible to beginners such as yourself. This cunning strategy allows the master to maintain complete control and yet lull gullible opponents into a false sense of security. Were you to actually face the master you would be disarmed so quickly you would not even understand how it happened. Think of it as chess. You might rejoice that the master has 'foolishly' left his queen open at which point you promptly dispatch it. You would then continue rambling about how your opponent is an idiot and an impostor who doesn't know the first thing about chess. Unbeknown to you, your move has guaranteed victory for the master 37 moves ahead.

[Thalion]

How dare you question a master who has been training for much much longer than you have been alive!?

You speak as if those swordmasters were real. My point was, if they were real, they wouldn't do those moves in the first place. But ok, they are cutting arrows, I have no idea about how to do it so the case is closed for me. As to some people's comments, I laugh at you. No reason for me to post about this anymore. Thanks.

[Jhayden]

My point was, if they were real, they wouldn't do those moves in the first place.

But, they're not.

Discussion over.

[deathkingth]

haha, i said something after you said it was over.... BURN ON YOU

[Zeldias]

You'd never imagine a bunch of trained swordsmen would spend their time playing video games or posting on the internet. I call shenanigans.

I wouldn't call myself trained in a "Snatch the grasshopper from my hand without crushing it, Daniel-san" sort of way, but I've taken up a lot of martial arts, including Japanese fencing styles, so I know about striking methods, footwork, and so on. I wound up leaving it off, because I totally agree with the Bruce Lee method of "Learn all the martial arts that seems useful or interests you, then incorporate it all." Plain old fencing with only swords just isn't as interesting as fencing, then disarming the guy with a kick and putting him away with some kung-fu. :-P

But this is about the animations, and as long as they give me some sort of crazy Jedi-combined-with-wire fu-plus-slightly-believable-martial arts I'm happy.

[Vikingkingq]

Keeping on the topic of his Arrow deflections, it makes for interesting possibilities as to how the swordmaster will work as a tank.
Perhaps instead of the classic 'stand and get hit till one of you dies from it' perhaps he will work a lot more at preventing the attacks from coming in the first place. Force puvshing enemies away, forming a wall of arrow deflections, leaping into combat forming a cordon of steel into which no enemy is willing to enter.
It would be totally unconventional, and, well it certainly wouldnt work in an mmo like WoW, but here...who knows.

Yeah. I think you're right about it. The force-pushing would be especially cool, because it would work well in combination with other careers that utilize knock-back/down effects.
Ironically, a Swordmaster and Hammerer might be a good pair, in an Odd Couple sort of way.

[VeriusCarth]

You'd never imagine a bunch of trained swordsmen would spend their time playing video games or posting on the internet. I call shenanigans.

'Cause, y'know. OBVIOUSLY they're out slaying dragons, or being bodyguards.

What the heck do you think swordsman do these days? It's more of a novelty than anything, and it's more for the discipline. It's not like they're hired into the army to cut people to pieces. They're quite real, and... guess what! They're normal people who, god forbid it, could just as easily have a computer, and internet connection. The only people who really don't have much of a life outside martial arts, and the big grand masters who spend their time going from place to place teaching at various different locations, and doing demos. People who just teach at a single school, hardly ever do that 24/7. At most they're going out to a competition a couple times a year.

So, homigawd! People who just happen to have a hobby that just happens to be learning how to cut people to ribbons, have the internet too! Apocalypse, apocalypse! Clearly the only solution is to act like an idiot on the intarwebs, because people will respect you for it!

Considering the fact that it does have some amount of realism, seeing as how these people aren't jumping buildings, flying around, and shooting lasers from their eyes, some amount of logic going into how someone swings a sword is reasonable. Unless you'd like to use the fantasy argument when the character finds that it makes him skilled to swing the sword through his body on every attack, and magically not get hit. But, okay. I concede the point here. Clearly as swordsmen live in fantasy worlds, instead of our own modern day worlds, everyone who says otherwise is full of crap, and you're just a magic machine that vomits truth.

On topic: The arrow deflection animation does look a tad wonky, as he's not really putting his weight into it, and he looks like he's only moving his wrist when swinging the weapon. Aside from that slight discrepancy, I think it looks fine, really.

[VeriusCarth]

Blargh! Double-post, ftw! >.<

[Jhayden]

Useless Words

Actually, I figured trained Swordsmen would be a bit more enlightened and wouldn't spend their time doing trivial things like posting on the internet. Prove me wrong, prove me wrong.

[Nerothos]

I liked it, personally. It sort of matched the idea of fluid motions, but then again, this is game animations. It's still kinda snappy and choppy.

On a side note, I need to change my avatar. Everybody stole it -.-

[Musejedi]

I'm not really sure how to respond to this thread. You already said in the OP pretty much all the justification Mythic need to say "we dont care if its not 100% realistic, this is just a game"

so..

I dont really care if its not 100% realistic, its just a game ;)

[Jonesy]

Actually, I figured trained Swordsmen would be a bit more enlightened and wouldn't spend their time doing trivial things like posting on the internet. Prove me wrong, prove me wrong.

Did you just insult yourself?

[Jonas]

Actually, I figured trained Swordsmen would be a bit more enlightened and wouldn't spend their time doing trivial things like posting on the internet. Prove me wrong, prove me wrong.


http://forums.swordforum.com/ ??

[DrainBamaged]

Can you also enchant your sword to do magical powers? I doubt it... NEXT!...

[Zeldias]

Actually, I figured trained Swordsmen would be a bit more enlightened and wouldn't spend their time doing trivial things like posting on the internet. Prove me wrong, prove me wrong.

What's trivial? If it's my interest, then it's important, you know? Nothing's more important than the things that a person takes interest in. Knowing how to swing a sword is an interest of mine, as is playing Guitar Hero, or getting my master's in literature. Some might have more weight than others, but it's all about interest.

Swordsmen aren't Jedi, you know.

[Aeldor]

I'm not sure why people felt the need to insult the OP for his ideas?

Surely he was just raising personal concerns based off of his knowledge of swordfighting, and asking other peoples opinions. Some disagree, and give reasons. Fair enough. After being given certain information he accepted that perhaps he posted rashly...why all the mockery and attacks?

I make a wrong turn and end up on the WoW forums or something?

[Grimfell Gromgear]

why all the mockery and attacks?


Welcome to the Internet.

[Spleen]

I'm not sure why people felt the need to insult the OP for his ideas?

Surely he was just raising personal concerns based off of his knowledge of swordfighting, and asking other peoples opinions. Some disagree, and give reasons. Fair enough. After being given certain information he accepted that perhaps he posted rashly...why all the mockery and attacks?

I make a wrong turn and end up on the WoW forums or something?

Because he's like the guy sitting next to you in the movie theater pissing and moaning about every little inaccuracy he sees and won't just let you enjoy the damn movie.

And riddle me this: You know how samurai swordfighting was pretty much rendered obsolete by firearms? Perhaps if they were smart enough to incorporate Wall of Guarding Steel and other flashy unrealistic elfy sword spins into their "kaza" then katana-play wouldn't have been relegated to a weeaboo hobby.

[Nishlec]

I think the animation was fine, not great, but fine. The biggest problem I have with animations are that they are so very stiff when we see them. Elves are weaker than other races, and thus the reason for them being able to swiftly wield two-handed swords has to be that they always keep them in movement in combat. Because if they hit, halted, then hit again they should attack slower than a human (since they are not as strong). However, if they used their martial prowess to angle the sword and constantly keep it in motion I could see how they could easily wield a Greatsword as a shortsword.

[Aeldor]

You have to bear in mind that the High Elf metal is much, much lighter than any human weapon, while retaining its strength perfectly.

[Aeldor]

Because he's like the guy sitting next to you in the movie theater pissing and moaning about every little inaccuracy he sees and won't just let you enjoy the damn movie.



As for this. You could just have simply said you disagree. Or if this sort of pedantry does't appeal to you, ignore the topic.
The fella was giving his opinion, disagree, sure thats fine, or ignore his foolishness. But when it denegrates into mockery any points he or you may have had become lost.

[Jhayden]

Because he's like the guy sitting next to you in the movie theater pissing and moaning about every little inaccuracy he sees and won't just let you enjoy the damn movie.
.

Exactly. These people seem to forget that movies and video games are FICTION. That the Warhammer world is imaginary and thus doesn't need to apply itself to real-life laws and physics.

[Aeldor]

Exactly. These people seem to forget that movies and video games are FICTION. That the Warhammer world is imaginary and thus doesn't need to apply itself to real-life laws and physics.

If that sort of thing is unimportant to you fair enough. Barbie dolls are unimportant to me, yet i wont sit and insult a person if they disagree with me. I will merely state my opinion.

Annonimity really does breed ignorance it seems.

[Jhayden]

If that sort of thing is unimportant to you fair enough. Barbie dolls are unimportant to me, yet i wont sit and insult a person if they disagree with me. I will merely state my opinion.

Annonimity really does breed ignorance it seems.

You have your ability to spout your inane nonsense just as much as I have my ability to criticize it. If that's ignorance than I guess we're both in in the same basket.

[Aeldor]

You have your ability to spout your inane nonsense just as much as I have my ability to criticize it. If that's ignorance than I guess we're both in in the same basket.

I guess now i understand. The act of disagreeing with a persons methods makes you a target of scorn.

Very well done.

[Jonas]

I think the animation was fine, not great, but fine. The biggest problem I have with animations are that they are so very stiff when we see them. Elves are weaker than other races, and thus the reason for them being able to swiftly wield two-handed swords has to be that they always keep them in movement in combat. Because if they hit, halted, then hit again they should attack slower than a human (since they are not as strong). However, if they used their martial prowess to angle the sword and constantly keep it in motion I could see how they could easily wield a Greatsword as a shortsword.

FYI, longswords and greatswords are not significantly heavier than shortswords/arming swords/other singleswords.

Also, because of their leverage mechanic (2 hands, pivot and lever) you don't need to put significant effort into them at all to get them moving scarily fast.

The idea of big sweeping slashes is actually more common in 1handed swordplay than it is in 2handed swordplay. Because with a two handed sword, you can generate the force required to give people a very bad day without ever moving it from infront of you.

[Jhayden]

The idea of big sweeping slashes is actually more common in 1handed swordplay than it is in 2handed swordplay. Because with a two handed sword, you can generate the force required to give people a very bad day without ever moving it from infront of you.

That sounds like it would lead to very boring, very static animations for anyone using a greatsword.

[RockpapperWaagh]

MAGIC






in my 15 years of being a mage irl i have learned i can leviate buildings. if i can levitate a building i can twirl a piece of metal around and kill you.

[Hayden]

I love when so called 'experts' give their opinion on the usefulness of the design of armor, weapons or how 'unrealistic' their fighting is. I think we all understand that swinging a sword around is for show and not a sign of an amazing fighter. An amazing swordsman would cut down his opponent in one strike and that wouldn't be very interesting in a video game now would it.

I like the animations so far for the Swordmaster, they are rough around the edges now but I love the direction they are headed in.

But for all the naysayers, I think it's about time you all take out your DVD of Braveheart and spend 4 hours talking about how unrealistic it is and have a hell of a time.

[Jhayden]

Exactly. Who practices swordsmanship for practicality?

[Veilside]

Exactly. Who practices swordsmanship for practicality?

Well, you know, in case of a zombie apocalypse and all :rolleyes:

[Volcano Mentality]

Ok maybe I overreact because its the only thing I saw yet. Put yourself in my shoes, as a swordsman and a huge WH fan I watch the vid of the class I'll play and only see this 5 second sword spinning move. Didn't know it was for arrow cutting/blocking as well. In that case I shouldn't talk much since I never cut arrows shot at me lol.. but there were samurai leading regiments and cutting arrows flying towards them, so I'll ask around how that was done :shock:

I'm eager to see how the other animations go though.
There's a story of a famous samurai called "Somethingorothernamed Arrow Cutter" (can't quite remember his name, but my bro has a book on it and I'll try looking it up) because of his famous moment when he walked onto a bridge on his own (with a naginata, but sword might work similarly) and began dancing around, swinging his blade, cutting and knocking aside arrows as they came at him from an enemy battalion. He survived, amazingly, and came out with near a hundred shattered arrows about him and about thirty sticking out of his armor, not piercing entirely because he never stayed in one spot long enough for the arrow's momentum to play out enough to get very far.

Obviously, using a naginata (a spear-like weapon with a sword blade on its tip) might be a bit easier considering its length, but i think he could have done that with a sword too.

[Volcano Mentality]

You have your ability to spout your inane nonsense just as much as I have my ability to criticize it. If that's ignorance than I guess we're both in in the same basket.
There is a HUGE difference between criticizing and flaming.

Look dude, you can say whatever you want about his comment, nobody can stop you, but for your own damn sake if for no one else's, just shut up. Please? You lose all credibility and respect from everyone except your own ilk, who have likely already lost their own and therefore really dont matter.

If you want to make an argument, fine. We respect your opinion and will take it into consideration. But if you start rambling on with your rather weak insults, you just lose.

P.S. I'm not trying to insult you right now, just warn you from continuing down this pathetic path you've started on.

[Malal]

There is a HUGE difference between criticizing and flaming.

Look dude, you can say whatever you want about his comment, nobody can stop you, but for your own damn sake if for no one else's, just shut up. Please? You lose all credibility and respect from everyone except your own ilk, who have likely already lost their own and therefore really dont matter.

If you want to make an argument, fine. We respect your opinion and will take it into consideration. But if you start rambling on with your rather weak insults, you just lose.

P.S. I'm not trying to insult you right now, just warn you from continuing down this pathetic path you've started on.

if that isnt a flame, imma chaos spawn.

[Aeldor]

There is a HUGE difference between criticizing and flaming.

Look dude, you can say whatever you want about his comment, nobody can stop you, but for your own damn sake if for no one else's, just shut up. Please? You lose all credibility and respect from everyone except your own ilk, who have likely already lost their own and therefore really dont matter.

If you want to make an argument, fine. We respect your opinion and will take it into consideration. But if you start rambling on with your rather weak insults, you just lose.

P.S. I'm not trying to insult you right now, just warn you from continuing down this pathetic path you've started on.

Agree'd. Hence why I left the discussion.

[Jhayden]

There is a HUGE difference between criticizing and flaming.

Look dude, you can say whatever you want about his comment, nobody can stop you, but for your own damn sake if for no one else's, just shut up. Please? You lose all credibility and respect from everyone except your own ilk, who have likely already lost their own and therefore really dont matter.

If you want to make an argument, fine. We respect your opinion and will take it into consideration. But if you start rambling on with your rather weak insults, you just lose.

P.S. I'm not trying to insult you right now, just warn you from continuing down this pathetic path you've started on.

A flame, flaming a flame?

[Volcano Mentality]

Well, didn't go like I planned (i was angry when I wrote all that), but at least my goal was accomplished; the flame session is over.

For now at least.

Let's just see how long it holds out. In any case, I'm outta here. See ya! :p

[Sinfjotle]

Why mention kendo when talking about swordmasters? They don't use katanas and aren't based on samurai. -->

[Jhayden]

Why mention kendo when talking about swordmasters? They don't use katanas and aren't based on samurai. -->

False hope that their lame arguments can hold some water?

[kizen]

I also study Japanese Sword, although a different style than the OP.

My best argument is, there is magic in this game. Who's to say that the guardians of saphiry don't use some magic in their techniques?

Also, if they made the game too realistic melee classes would be fairly boring to most people. Sparkling, and outrageous looking skills are what add a lot of appeal to a class. No one would play a wizard if his fireball was a tiny little match being thrown at someone. The same goes for a melee class. Doing cut a, or cut b would be extremely boring after the 9,000,000th time, which is why they make the skill unbelievable.

[justsomeguy]

The best way to look at the swordmaster's animations is in relation to the other animations in the game. The animations for the other classes is pretty stock. A little extra effort on behalf of the swordmaster is about the most we should expect. MMO's almost never have very good animation.

[vazzaroth]

One of the biggest things people dont realise about the High Elves is that they are totally NOT just people with long ears.

I've had to explain the differences over orcs to some people similarly. Most games (Even my beloved DnD!) just make Orcs strong humans with green/darkish skin and Elves skinny ones with long ears, but Warhammer really does make each race unique. On the outside they look the same but they are TOTALLY different physiologically and Psychologically

[Athenys]

I for one think Thalion raises a valid point. The devs for Witcher actually hired professional swordsmen to choreograph realistic fight scenes in the game IIRC. Because Warhammer is a more fantastic setting the Swordmaster's style should be somewhat flashy (artistic license) without going to ridiculous extremes. It doesn't matter what race you are either, your moves have to make sense! If anything skilled elven warriors would be the epitome of efficiency, masters of the one-stroke-you're-dead technique :rolleyes:. They would not waste time/energy ineffectively waving their pokers around for the sole purpose of showing off in the midst of battle! In a tournament or contest perhaps, but otherwise it's just daft.

[wellsy]

However, Athenys, the OP did not realise that the skill in question was Wall of Darting Steel. That was the one move we've seen where it does get a bit rediculous, but it is supposed to swat arrows out of the sky etc.

Think lightsabers and proto-Jedi. You'll get the picture pretty quick, I'm sure.

[Selendor]

Considering that High Elves elevate every aspect of their lives, be it combat, magic, politics, etc., to an art form, I don't think "flashy animations" are at all out of character for them. Hell, an Elf is fast enough to do those flashy, impractical movements in the same amount of time it takes a human to do a simple yet effective thrust. Just sayin'.

[Konrad Siegesruf]

And Swordmasters even faster in fact :p.

[Jhayden]

They would not waste time/energy ineffectively waving their pokers around for the sole purpose of showing off in the midst of battle!


They're not doing it "for the sole purpose of showing off in the midst of battle". They're doing it to create a barrier of metal and magic to block incoming ranged attacks.

[Vikingkingq]

If anything skilled elven warriors would be the epitome of efficiency, masters of the one-stroke-you're-dead technique :rolleyes:. They would not waste time/energy ineffectively waving their pokers around for the sole purpose of showing off in the midst of battle! In a tournament or contest perhaps, but otherwise it's just daft.

Druchii Executioners are the master of the killing blow.

But only Swordmasters can turn blade dances into magic.

[Athenys]

They're not doing it "for the sole purpose of showing off in the midst of battle". They're doing it to create a barrier of metal and magic to block incoming ranged attacks.

Cast...'shield'...trust me it's easier :p.

[Vikingkingq]

Cast...'shield'...trust me it's easier :p.

That's how they cast shield. If they did it with regular magic, they'd be archmages.

[Athenys]

To me Swordmasters are as close as you can get to some AD&D warrior/wizard class combos. You have access to lower level spells, even if you are a warrior first and foremost. When you cast a spell you do so in pretty much the same way as a single class character; you have one version of 'shield' with pretty much the same verbal, somatic and/or material components. So while you are happily dicing away at a Black Guard you can have Mr. Archmage's shield lite protecting you from missiles for more than 2.5 seconds. Because nothing says 'I love Asur' quite like DE repeater crossbows...

[Jhayden]

And the point of all that is...?

[Anaris]

just as an aside; logically, even if you are fast enough to use some flashy moves when fighting a human, you did not train against a human, did not practice for the last thousand years against humans, are not intended to fight humans, do not possess humans as a racial enemy and are therefore highly unlikely to turn it into a habit.

in addition, let's be honest. flashy moves may be possible against a human, but what the hell do they achieve? you could kill one human flashily, or you could kill the same human in half the time and half the risk to yourself by using the same moves you use to kill an Elf.

whilst i don't have any objection to the swordmasters flipping and spinning and all sorts of really irrational moves, you can't justify them by saying "they're fast enough to show off so instead of being the masters of swordplay, they'll just spend their time putting themselves in danger doing stupid-but-cool stuff so that their opponent dies impressed" just suspend your disbelief and look at the shiny swords.

[Selendor]

Because again, Elves treat combat as an art form and not just a way to kill somebody.

[Anaris]

Because again, Elves treat combat as an art form and not just a way to kill somebody.

"art" does not mean "i will do pointless stuff because humans think it looks cool". they are graceful, but they are deadly first and foremost. a swordsmaster is the supreme blade combatant - and the best way to use a blade is not twirling it like a ponce.

i'd also like to note the strong self-preservation instinct of the elves, as well as the fact that their aesthetics are miles from those of humans - take the pointed helmets, for example.

and finally, i'd like to note that the fact that they view combat as an art does not equate to artistic combat - it means they see combat as an art rather than a structured discipline of proscribed formulae, but it doesn't mean "prance around".

yes, i know the Swordsmaster 'dances'. willing to bet none of them are the fandango, an equally pointless but impressive combat move.


hey, i like the cool animations, i'm all for sword-spinning in a game. lord knows, i don't want to see realistic combat. but fluffwise, it's not how elves fight. they're elegant, not stupid. all it takes is one lucky human and suddenly, while you're busy twirling your sword in your right hand, miles away from your body, he's cutting your left arm off. so much for a two-hander!

edit; also, incidentally, a two-hander is typically used in a much closer range in front of the body and provides much better defense than a longsword, because the extra weight means you don't have to move it far from your ideal guard position to kill someone. ithilmar greatswords are actually a reasonably impractical weapon.

[Vikingkingq]

"art" does not mean "i will do pointless stuff because humans think it looks cool". they are graceful, but they are deadly first and foremost. a swordsmaster is the supreme blade combatant - and the best way to use a blade is not twirling it like a ponce.

i'd also like to note the strong self-preservation instinct of the elves, as well as the fact that their aesthetics are miles from those of humans - take the pointed helmets, for example.

and finally, i'd like to note that the fact that they view combat as an art does not equate to artistic combat - it means they see combat as an art rather than a structured discipline of proscribed formulae, but it doesn't mean "prance around".

yes, i know the Swordsmaster 'dances'. willing to bet none of them are the fandango, an equally pointless but impressive combat move.


hey, i like the cool animations, i'm all for sword-spinning in a game. lord knows, i don't want to see realistic combat. but fluffwise, it's not how elves fight. they're elegant, not stupid. all it takes is one lucky human and suddenly, while you're busy twirling your sword in your right hand, miles away from your body, he's cutting your left arm off. so much for a two-hander!

Again, how is it pointless if it knocks away incoming attacks?

[Anaris]

Again, how is it pointless if it knocks away incoming attacks?

because "parrying" is a better idea than "waving my sword a thousand times a second and coincidentally parrying one attack", duh.

the issue is really, really not "i don't think swordmasters should defend", which is what you just attributed to me. there's just much better ways of doing it.

[Mr Dreadful]

Having finally got around to watching the video that has caused the OP's concern, I can say that my suspicions have been confirmed... he's doing a perfectly legitimate and plausible move called 'windmilling' (well, not quite... it does have a proper name, but I forget what it is). Apparently it's actually mentioned in 15th Century German Fechtbuchen (Fight Books).

In my longsword class we use it as a warm-up exercise.

[Jhayden]

because "parrying" is a better idea than "waving my sword a thousand times a second and coincidentally parrying one attack", duh.

How is he going to parry arrows? Wouldn't it just be better to-....you know what, forget it. You people are obviously too dense to realize that it's god damn magic and it doesn't apply to real life physics. You're all being just selfish because you think it looks "over done" so you're all coming up with dozens of excuses to make them into some kind of drab, bland fighter archetype.

Sorry these animated video game characters don't meet up to your mighty samurai real-life swordsmen standards. Now I think you should all go find something else to complain about; I hear Zatoichi: The Blind Swordsmen is very unrealistic. Surely a forum dedicated to that movie should be graced by your appearances.

[Shenryu]

OP, I respect your opinion based on your expertise with a blade as it applies to real life.

However, I believe in a magic fantasy world such as in WAR, our real life physics don't need to apply. The elven swordmasters in WAR have spent hundreds upon hundreds of years of swordplay and they are quite different than humans. Personally, I love the idea of a swordmaster with a gigantic 2-handed sword flipping and dancing around enemies cutting them up and deflecting arrows out of the air at the same time :cool:

I play MMOs for all that unrealistic stuff - it's fun!


Also, I don't see any reason at all for the derogatory flames on the subject. Everyone has their opinions there is no reason to flame them if they provide reasoning for their opinion.

[Anaris]

How is he going to parry arrows? Wouldn't it just be better to-....you know what, forget it. You people are obviously too dense to realize that it's god damn magic and it doesn't apply to real life physics. You're all being just selfish because you think it looks "over done" so you're all coming up with dozens of excuses to make them into some kind of drab, bland fighter archetype.

Sorry these animated video game characters don't meet up to your mighty samurai real-life swordsmen standards. Now I think you should all go find something else to complain about; I hear Zatoichi: The Blind Swordsmen is very unrealistic. Surely a forum dedicated to that movie should be graced by your appearances.

you can't read posts, you can't understand what i said and now you're flaming me. stop getting angsty just because i don't agree with your logic.

read what i wrote. read it carefully. see if you can find the bits where i said i like the animation and i don't have a problem with its use in the game.

and are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that a troop-type who is said to be fast enough to Deflect Arrows and is fast enough to spin their sword into a barrier that's impenetrable to ranged weapons isn't going to be able to parry an arrow? i'm human and i can see the lag between firing a bow and the arrow hitting. child's play for a swordsmaster, and a lot more practical than rooting himself to the spot and spinning his blade for five seconds to parry one arrow, quite apart from the fact that spinning one's blade wouldn't stop all the arrows whereas parrying each one definitely would.

finally, i note that the swordsmaster's appeal to me in the fluff is not "they're magic omglol" because they're not. they don't need magic; they're very, very good at what they do.

[kizen]

I'm like 99% positive that both of you are misunderstanding each other, since I've read each of your posts twice.

I believe the base argument is, people have a problem with the fact that it's unrealistic to be spinning a sword around to deflect arrows.

The next argument most logically being "Why not just move out of the way of the arrow, or parry it with 1 swipe."

But, I do propose, what happens when there are lets say 10-15 arrows being show at you, or at people directly behind you. Parrying 1 arrow suddenly turns into a blade-spinesque maneuver, almost exactly like the one that the BM does in the video.

"But he's so quick, he could just parry them all." Exactly! He is moving so fast that the exact effect that you see in that video is produced.

It's very similar to a certain style of spinning a bo-staff. Which was said to have been spun so fast that it almost formed a shield in front of the wielder that it could knock arrows out of flight.

[Kharlene]

For those of you screaming for 'logic' in the SM's animations... Answer me this one question:


"Where is the logic in demanding there be realism and logic in the actions of a magically melee based fantasy character where logic need not always apply and more often than not void of anything 'real'?"


Because demanding such, ironically sounds incredibly... illogical... More so than the damn SM animation or even the whole damn game itself... :rolleyes:

[Anaris]

For those of you screaming for 'logic' in the SM's animations... Answer me this one question:


"Where is the logic in demanding there be realism and logic in the actions of a magically melee based fantasy character where logic need not always apply and more often than not void of anything 'real'?"


Because demanding such, ironically sounds incredibly... illogical... More so than the damn SM animation or even the whole damn game itself... :rolleyes:

magic is outside of logic.

internal consistency is an ideal in a fantasy world.

nowhere in the warhammer lore does it imply that swords handle differently on their world.

magic is not clearly involved in the swordplay, nor is there a known magical Lore, spell or similar device associated with whirling swords.

ergo, the assumption can be made that an illogical maneuver is still illogical. qed.

i said i didn't mind it too much in a game because i know how to suspend my disbelief. however, it is not neccessarily a logical maneuver.

i note that i was attempting to pick holes in the argument rather than simply state an opinion on the maneuver; i haven't actually seen it, i'm basing all of this off descriptions. i contend that the argument for the maneuver as it stood, which basically consisted of (i'm summarising) "he's a magical elf so he can", was illogical.

so i'm the one crying out for logic!

[kizen]

magic is not clearly involved in the swordplay, nor is there a known magical Lore, spell or similar device associated with whirling swords.


That statement is incorrect. Paul has said that swordmaster's uses "flashy bits of magic." This makes it quite evident that they are not your average swordsmen.

[Vikingkingq]

Moreover, if you watch the Swordmaster preview video, the abilities are clearly magical - you're enchanting your sword, attacking people with the fires of the phoenix, etc.

[Anaris]

Moreover, if you watch the Swordmaster preview video, the abilities are clearly magical - you're enchanting your sword, attacking people with the fires of the phoenix, etc.

but in this one, he's just spinning it, right?

[Creslan]

Well, looks like the swordmaster does his twirly thing, then his opponent dies from boredom or laughter. I think you will be able to chose either one of those deaths, but I'm not sure :)

[Vikingkingq]

but in this one, he's just spinning it, right?

Spinning, plus purply glow and blue lightning. That's magic!

[Jhayden]

The fact that this debate is still going on causes me to die a little inside.

The game is fantasy and stylized. Warhammer is not based on real life, and thus does not follow the physical laws of a real world.

[Mr Dreadful]

Wow, is this still going on? It seems like only yesterday when I said that it's a legitimate move that appears in Medieval fighting manuals... Apart from the German Fechtbuchen mentioned in my previous post, it also appears in Fiore dei Liberi's text Flos Duellatorum, where he calls it Mulinello (Lit. "Windmill").

So yeah, the gooby magical stuff aside it is still a legitimate thing to do with a sword.

And just to clear up the parrying arrows thing: yes, it can be done. My longsword instructor reckons it's possible and since he's been studying weapon-based martial arts for a very long time I trust his judgment.

[Anaris]

Spinning, plus purply glow and blue lightning. That's magic!

oops. i said i hadn't seen the video, right?

yeah, clearly magic. i mean, i don't necessarily like the magic swordmasters, but that's what they are, so that's clearly magic.

Wow, is this still going on? It seems like only yesterday when I said that it's a legitimate move that appears in Medieval fighting manuals... Apart from the German Fechtbuchen mentioned in my previous post, it also appears in Fiore dei Liberi's text Flos Duellatorum, where he calls it Mulinello (Lit. "Windmill").

So yeah, the gooby magical stuff aside it is still a legitimate thing to do with a sword.

And just to clear up the parrying arrows thing: yes, it can be done. My longsword instructor reckons it's possible and since he's been studying weapon-based martial arts for a very long time I trust his judgment.

it CAN be done. it may well be in fighting manuals. it's just really not a practical move as a defense against arrows, especially if the lore declares that you're fast enough to parry each one. the extra movement is useless - an ithilmar greatsword turns on a dime, weighs less than a steel longsword. it's perfectly balanced and is wielded by a warrior far greater than a human. any part of that motion that doesn't block an arrow is wasted energy.

[pooter26]

Animations looked to much like WoW, the auto attack looks worse but the actual moves are okay. Overall im dissapointed compared to what ive seen from the zealot!

[ll Monsters ll]

So much talk about the zen-like transcendence of elf combat that our feeble human minds could not possibly grasp the scope of High Elf abilities.....

Now cover him in spikes and lock him up for a week listening to death metal and you've got absolute freaking blood letting insanity.

All the arguments that high elves make sound better when you add "pissed" and "spikey" to the adjectives.

Come to the dark side.

[rushtodeath]

And just to clear up the parrying arrows thing: yes, it can be done. My longsword instructor reckons it's possible and since he's been studying weapon-based martial arts for a very long time I trust his judgment.


No offense to you or your longsword instructor but "reckons it's possible" is a long way from "yes, it can be done."

An arrow can approach you at hundreds of feet per second - the reaction time required to respond let alone the skill involved with actually blocking the arrow square or deflecting it away from your body with a sword would require a super human ability.

Granted if the arrow was coming at you from a long enough distance to the point it loses a substantial amount of velocity, and you actually had time to see it coming to bring your weapon up to defend against it then: maybe. But then again if this is the case might as well just dodge the damn thing.

The show Mythbusters have done experiments similar to this (i.e. the episode where they prove that its impossible to catch an arrow out of the air). The arrow simply moves too fast for human reaction time.



But again as others have pointed out in reference to this game its all fantasy - so twirl-on swordmasters

[Ceandric]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-nCbJmjES4

[Eleazar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-nCbJmjES4
Hahaha, well there goes the theory that you can't catch arrows.

[Gemini]

Hahaha, well there goes the theory that you can't catch arrows.

Someone needs to send that to MythBusters...

[Ceandric]

Just had to post it since someone used Mythbusters as a referance to it not being possible... Mythbusters is a great show..... but it's a show... there's nothing scientific about it at all... I'd say it's about as scientific as my left sock.

[Boulvae]

Well it's a viable source for atleast 55% - 65% of what they do.

Stuff like the whole run/walk in rain thing was pointless.

Stuff like the whole Ice Bullet thing was done with some incorrectness, that being that they didn't make the gun as cold as the bullets they made.

Stuff like God, Ask a Ninja, Ghosts, Supernatural is basically probably just for kicks, maybe, I find it surprising how these guys don't learn after quite a few atempts that the god stuff, and surper natural stuff is pointless to touch.

[Nightz]

1. ITS A GAME!!!
2. Its a magic sword put it that way so its super light that way you wont try to over think it
2. or think of it somehow craft of the lightest yet strongest metal (a resource we dont have yet) and is it rly that important?

i no i did 2 twice!