Question for Empire fans.

[Steel*Faith]

While the people of the Empire agree that the Witch Hunters’ work is critically important, rare is the citizen who does not feel pangs of dread when they lay eyes upon one, for it is understood that most Witch Hunters would sooner burn an entire village to the ground than see a single follower of Chaos go free.

I want to know if there is any GW or Black Library lore so i can fully understand the lore of the Witch Hunter. It just seems to out of place for this kind of practice to be tolerated within the Empire, but I would like to read more.

Any info that is GW approved is appreciated. Thanks.

[malavhe]

Similar to Inquisitors in W40k, Witchhunters may take extreme actions to stop Chaos from spreading. A Chaos infested village is an epedemic waiting to happen. By exterminating all the inhabitants the Witchhunter is quarantining the infestation.

It doesn't help that Witchhunters often rub up against some pretty nasty , and that messes up their minds. Paranoia is almost a work requirement for these guys.

[Thoden Firehammer]

This is all true, the empire is far from all goodie goodie

[Ofaloaf]

I've only got the 6th Ed. Warhammer Fantasy rulebook and Empire armybook on me, and neither of them seem to mention witchunters at all. There might be some fluff on them in the G&F series (sod it all if I can spell their names correctly this late at night, so I won't bother), but other than that I would just assume that they're fanatical about it all, you know? It fits in most with the atmosphere of Warhammer Fantasy, and there's the parallels with the Inquisition in WH40K to draw on.

[Vikingkingq]

I want to know if there is any GW or Black Library lore so i can fully understand the lore of the Witch Hunter. It just seems to out of place for this kind of practice to be tolerated within the Empire, but I would like to read more.

Any info that is GW approved is appreciated. Thanks.

- The Witch Hunter's Handbook, available at Black Library.
- Witch Hunter (Witch Hunter, Witch Finder, Witch Killer) series of novels by C.L Werner, ditto.

[Ofaloaf]

- The Witch Hunter's Handbook, available at Black Library.
- Witch Hunter (Witch Hunter, Witch Finder, Witch Killer) series of novels by C.L Werner, ditto.
Wait, they actually had a series named that? And a handbook? Good God, GW really is milking the Warhammer property for all it's worth!

[Steel*Faith]

- The Witch Hunter's Handbook, available at Black Library.
- Witch Hunter (Witch Hunter, Witch Finder, Witch Killer) series of novels by C.L Werner, ditto.

I'll have to pick those up. I knew about all those, except The Witch hunter's Handbook! That one sounds interesting.

[Blitzburger]

It just seems to out of place for this kind of practice to be tolerated within the Empire.

:confused: I know which Empire I'm thinking of... what empire are you thinking of?

[Vikingkingq]

Similar to Inquisitors in W40k, Witchhunters may take extreme actions to stop Chaos from spreading. A Chaos infested village is an epedemic waiting to happen. By exterminating all the inhabitants the Witchhunter is quarantining the infestation.

It doesn't help that Witchhunters often rub up against some pretty nasty , and that messes up their minds. Paranoia is almost a work requirement for these guys.

Hole in one. Remember, village != innocent. In Witch Killer, Mathias Thulmann comes acorss a village that worhips the Horned Rat and is in league with the Skaven; in short stories in Tales of the Old World, you have villages that sacrifice travellers to a demonic tree for better harvests, villages that lure ships to wreck themselves on the rocks and then steal the stuff that washes up on shore.

In short, don't think peaceful, happy village. Think Deliverance.

[John_Skellan]

Mass Killings?
Justified

Mass Murder?
Justified

Burning an entire Village to the ground with the populace inside the buildings?
Justified

Convicting an honest person of heresy, and still killing them when they are clearly innocent?
Justified

Toturing an entire village convicted of heresy?
Justified

Whatever a witchhunter does can be justified in one way or another. There is virtually no one beyond their reach (besides maybe the Emperor, but even he is able to be suspected about)

[malavhe]

I took a look in WFRP2 to see what careers can enter the Witch Hunter career:
Anointed Priest, Assassin, Champion, High Priest, Judicial Champion, Knight of the Inner Circle and Vampire Hunter

Actually some classes made me go WTF? Granted they are all extremly good fighters bu what does an Assassin, Champion or Judicial Champion have with combating the spread of Chaos?

However it's the others I wanted to make a point of. You need to be an Anointed or High Priest, not just a Knight no, you have to be nearly the master of your Knightly Order in order to qualify. And what terrors do you face if you have left vampires behind you as a threat as the Vampire Hunter has*?

My point is, the power to burn a village to the ground is not given to just anyone.

* Hmm, not really... A character who has completed the Vampire Hunter career can fight a vampire 1on1 and win in many cases.

[Vikingkingq]

I took a look in WFRP2 to see what careers can enter the Witch Hunter career:
Anointed Priest, Assassin, Champion, High Priest, Judicial Champion, Knight of the Inner Circle and Vampire Hunter

Actually some classes made me go WTF? Granted they are all extremly good fighters bu what does an Assassin, Champion or Judicial Champion have with combating the spread of Chaos?

However it's the others I wanted to make a point of. You need to be an Anointed or High Priest, not just a Knight no, you have to be nearly the master of your Knightly Order in order to qualify. And what terrors do you face if you have left vampires behind you as a threat as the Vampire Hunter has*?

My point is, the power to burn a village to the ground is not given to just anyone.

* Hmm, not really... A character who has completed the Vampire Hunter career can fight a vampire 1on1 and win in many cases.

They don't, what precipitates the change is that they are forced to come to terms with Chaos in a personal level: the Assassin is sent to murder someone who turns out to be a daemonhost, and realizes that some things are more important than money; the Champion faces a charge of Chaos Knights and realizes that some battlefields are more important than others, etc.

As for the terrors? Demons. Magic. Mutants. And of course, the greatest terror of them all - the evil that lurks in the hearts of men.

[Dracnye]

- The Witch Hunter's Handbook, available at Black Library.
- Witch Hunter (Witch Hunter, Witch Finder, Witch Killer) series of novels by C.L Werner, ditto.

Those books mentioned are the best source of Witch Hunter lore, especially the Witch Hunter series, that is very in depth and a good read. The Witch Hunter's Handbook has some really good lore in it also.

[popper05]

I've only got the 6th Ed. Warhammer Fantasy rulebook and Empire armybook on me, and neither of them seem to mention witchunters at all. There might be some fluff on them in the G&F series (sod it all if I can spell their names correctly this late at night, so I won't bother), but other than that I would just assume that they're fanatical about it all, you know? It fits in most with the atmosphere of Warhammer Fantasy, and there's the parallels with the Inquisition in WH40K to draw on.

The 7th Edition Empire Army Book has about two paragraphs on them. :?

[Steel*Faith]

Well i'm confused by the Empire. It seems like the Empire can be looked at in so many different ways. In one respect the Empire is a open and tolerant society full of many forms of deity worship; they are also a progressive society expanding their knowledge of science ad math ect. Also they're good diplomats and friendly with the Dwarfs and High Elves. Their current Emperor, Karl Franz, is a wise and just leader. The majority of citizens and armies of the Empire as a whole seem rather stalwart and faithful to their ideals.

Then the other side of the Empire, that seems more popular on this forum, is corrupt and oppressive. You have greedy bureaucrats in government, brutal Witch hunters, and a populace that generally is consumed with fear of the enemy and it's oppressive leaders (justifiably so).

So the Empire seems to me like a place full of good and bad. I recognize it for it's good traits and bad ones. Would any of you agree with me?

[Krulltak]

It's like I've been telling ya, Steel, Warhammer is like reality. There is no pure good and no pure evil. It's all varying shades of grey, not the Biblically inspired LOTR.

[Vikingkingq]

Well i'm confused by the Empire. It seems like the Empire can be looked at in so many different ways. In one respect the Empire is a open and tolerant society full of many forms of deity worship; they are also a progressive society expanding their knowledge of science ad math ect. Also they're good diplomats and friendly with the Dwarfs and High Elves. Their current Emperor, Karl Franz, is a wise and just leader. The majority of citizens and armies of the Empire as a whole seem rather stalwart and faithful to their ideals.

Then the other side of the Empire, that seems more popular on this forum, is corrupt and oppressive. You have greedy bureaucrats in government, brutal Witch hunters, and a populace that generally is consumed with fear of the enemy and it's oppressive leaders (justifiably so).

So the Empire seems to me like a place full of good and bad. I recognize it for it's good traits and bad ones. Would any of you agree with me?

What makes the Empire so cool is that it's both at the same time. The good side and bad side of human nature working itself out on grand scale. A lot of which side comes out depends on the people and the place - a village with a fair landlord, an honest sheriff, a faithful priest, and a competant doctor would be a nice place to live; a village with a greedy of a landlord, a crooked leg-breaker of a sheriff, a corrupt priest, and a quack doctor would be miserable. And these two villages might be neighbors.

Regarding religious tolerance: keep in mind that the Witch Hunters don't give a damn if you worship Taal and Rhya or Myrmidia or any of the other Gods of the Old World. What makes you a heretic isn't not following Sigmar - it's worshiping the Ruinous Powers or one of the forbidden gods (usually forbidden for reasons of human sacrfice).

[Steel*Faith]

It's like I've been telling ya, Steel, Warhammer is like reality. There is no pure good and no pure evil. It's all varying shades of grey, not the Biblically inspired LOTR.

Well LOTR is this way as well.

Viking, I completely agree and understand what you're saying.

[Krulltak]

Well LOTR is this way as well

You don't know how horribly wrong you are, mac.

[Steel*Faith]

You don't know how horribly wrong you are, mac.

Well, "Mac", why am I terribly wrong? There are many characters and races in LOTR that have there redeeming features and there weaknesses. LOTR is a story closer to the real world, and real people. Where as Warhammer is basically an extreme fiction where everything is a stereotype and an extreme. Not to mention you really can't relate to anyone in Warhammer because all the characters are so far from reality. Each story have there purposes, Warhammer is more to entertain, while LOTR ect is more to learn from but is entertaining at the same time, but in a different kind of way.

A good example of this is Gollum. You want to talk "shades of grey"? That is a very deep character that can't be put into one category very easily.

[Thoden Firehammer]

I still have to agree with Krull to me LoTR seems almost black and white...

[Steel*Faith]

If you've only seen the movies, that is the impression you get.

Reading the books is a different story. If you have read The Children of Hurin, The Silmarillion, The hobbit, and the Lord of the Rings trilogy you would know that.

Anyhow let's not go on a LOTR rant. Point being both have depth, but they are both very different types of fantasy.

[Jonas]

If you've only seen the movies, that is the impression you get.

Reading the books is a different story. If you have read The Children of Hurin, The Silmarillion, The hobbit, and the Lord of the Rings trilogy you would know that.

Anyhow let's not go on a LOTR rant. Point being both have depth, but they are both very different types of fantasy.

You've been reading different books to me..

The Lord of the Rings trilogy in particular is renowned for it's black and white approach to good and evil. My personal biggest gripe is what I call "Captain Cardboard Cutout characters" (alliteration ftw, if I might say) in that particular trilogy.

In fact, the best thing Peter Jackson did with the movies to my mind was *make* the characters less iconic and more human (in the extended edition - only LOTR worth watching). For example, Boromir is flawed, yet understandable. The books never addressed that.

[Krulltak]

You've been reading different books to me..

The Lord of the Rings trilogy in particular is renowned for it's black and white approach to good and evil. My personal biggest gripe is what I call "Captain Cardboard Cutout characters" (alliteration ftw, if I might say) in that particular trilogy.

In fact, the best thing Peter Jackson did with the movies to my mind was *make* the characters less iconic and more human (in the extended edition - only LOTR worth watching). For example, Boromir is flawed, yet understandable. The books never addressed that.


Quoted for Truth.


Tolkien was also bias on the opinion that Good always wins, even though Isengard and Mordor had fell beasts, advanced technology(the blasting fire), super soldiers, superior numbers etc etc

But because Tolkien had to be so like he is, anything "evil" automatically loses through ridiculous miracles.

Oh and elves, if it wasn't for him, elves wouldn't be in the place I oh so hate them to be today.

[Steel*Faith]

I'm sorry but he is not QFT as you put it Krulltak.

Tolkien was also bias on the opinion that Good always wins, even though Isengard and Mordor had fell beasts, advanced technology(the blasting fire), super soldiers, superior numbers etc etc

Tolkien was relating that the redeeming aspects of humanity will always defeat the evil and corruption in this world. Which is absolutely true, and there is nothing wrong or "unrealistic" to write a novel based on this theme. Also, his characters were all very diverse, some had massive power, while he tried to convey that the actions of the simple man can have the greatest impact on the world.

I feel most people who bash Tolkien do so because they don't like it's symbolism of the Bible. Not only that but Tolkien lived through a very dark period of the modern world, and he tried to convey that even in the face of overwhelming odds and fear, good will triumph over evil. So he's talking from life experience, unlike many authors or people who talk from their own ego's and bias.

Seriously though this is getting way off topic, so let's not talk about this in this thread.

[DarthShrimp]

Back to the witchhunters lore.

Not part of GW's lore, but I would recommend you read the Solomon Kane novels, by Robert E. Howard. It's supposedly the source of inspiration for the WH as we know them in Warhammer (actually it feels a bit like a mix between Warhammer and Lovecraft).

[Vikingkingq]

Back to the witchhunters lore.

Not part of GW's lore, but I would recommend you read the Solomon Kane novels, by Robert E. Howard. It's supposedly the source of inspiration for the WH as we know them in Warhammer (actually it feels a bit like a mix between Warhammer and Lovecraft).


Heh. It's the inspiration for the Witch Hunter, the Shadow, and quite a few swashbuckler movies. I've been a big fan of SK for a long time (check the WH subforum for a Solomon Kane thread).

And fyi - REH was a close friend of HP Lovecraft and the two helped each other a lot with their writing.

[Purgling]

The Empire faces problems that the other Order races don't. Their main foe is Chaos in it's many forms. Good and evil is easy to define when you can trust your race as a whole (Dwarfs and High Elves) and your enemies are easily recognized (Orcs and Dark Elves). Humans are clay in the hands of he Chaos Gods.

"We have seen the enemy and they are us".

Even in the best of times when invasion isn't outside the city gates, chaos cults infest empire cities. The four chaos gods vie for the souls of men and offer that what each person seeks most...at a price to be named later. They seek out the weaknesses of humans from the most poor and weak to the most rich and powerful. So to understand a Witch Hunter, you'd have to live in a world where your neighbor could very well be absolute evil while putting forth a completely benign face. You trust noone, you eradicate any taint of chaos with no hesitation or remorse for innocent casualties, and you understand that nobody, not even your fellow Witch Hunters, is beyond the grasp of Chaos.

When you fight those who have given their souls to the gods of bloodlust, depravity, corruption, and pestilance, you better be prepared to get your hands dirty. That's why the Empire is such a paranoid, intolerant, dark place to live.

[Krulltak]

The Empire faces problems that the other Order races don't. Their main foe is Chaos in it's many forms. Good and evil is easy to define when you can trust your race as a whole (Dwarfs and High Elves) and your enemies are easily recognized (Orcs and Dark Elves). Humans are clay in the hands of he Chaos Gods.



FYI, Asur and Dawi face Chaos too, and the Empire faces Greenskins all the time.

[Vikingkingq]

FYI, Asur and Dawi face Chaos too, and the Empire faces Greenskins all the time.

No, Purgling has a point. The Asur and the Dawi face more or less external enemies - the Asur do have to keep a lid on the Cult of Pleasure, but that's really small and not a major threat. The Empire has to fight itself much more than they do.

And while it's true that the Empire does fight Greenskins all the time, it's easier for the Empire to deal with. The Waagh is there, going from point A to point B, you need to defeat it. Not necessarily easier on the battlfield, you understand, but you don't have to worry about underground Mork cults sabotaging the war effort.

[Krulltak]

No, Purgling has a point. The Asur and the Dawi face more or less external enemies - the Asur do have to keep a lid on the Cult of Pleasure, but that's really small and not a major threat. The Empire has to fight itself much more than they do.

And while it's true that the Empire does fight Greenskins all the time, it's easier for the Empire to deal with. The Waagh is there, going from point A to point B, you need to defeat it. Not necessarily easier on the battlfield, you understand, but you don't have to worry about underground Mork cults sabotaging the war effort.


Right. I see what you're trying to say. Internal enemies.