The Reason Corsair has an at least 90% chance of coming out..

[Deathace]

http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/flash/pp_Quests_bitrate.html

Podcast #7, Paul goes through the explanation of the quests of warhammer and after the funny bear quest explanation he talks briefly about Elves and corsairs. In my opinion he clearly gave to us what one of the elf classes were. ;)

[wojo2024]

you sir, are a genious!

*sarcasm off

[Deathace]

you sir, are a genious!

*sarcasm off

just trying to inform the people who missed this podcast.

[Adendan]

Been several threads on this.
And he doesn't say anything like "Corsairs, who by the way is a DE playable class"
All he says is that there is a Corsair NPC.

They've mentioned Slayers as well, and somehow they didn't make it as a playable class.

[Kaid]

This is true and before anyone else says it yes this has been said before but hey w/e. Anyway I think it would be a better choice as a ranged dps than a shade given the fact that if given a Repeater Crossbow that they would pretty much be the same thing. Then as a plus all the Corsair fans that were dissipointed would be able to cheer and shout. However, they will be filling the ranged DPS poisition so that kinda blows it as they are skilled fighters and probably wouldn't be favored as a squishy ranged DPS but thats just theory. The fact that they will have to be squishy will most likely make the Shade be the ranged DPS choice. So the slight mention of Corsairs really doesn't give justification. I bet we will see all sorts of class choices that we could have had like Executioners and Cold One Knights and all sorts of others.

[Feigro]

They don't have to be squishy. Engineers aren't squishy.

Usually ranged classes, as far as armor is concerned, come in two types. Light (cloth) armor, like robes and stuff, the likes of casters. Or Medium (cloth/mail) armor, the like leather jerkins and chain mails, the likes of archers/gunmen.

I personally doubt we'd see shades if there are shadow warriors, and given the fact there's little else for High Elves, well... There are those that say there wouldn't be much difference other than aesthetics/lore between a shade and corsair if you gave corsairs repeaters.

If that's the case, then I'd see them going with the character that is more different (Corsairs) than the HE counterpart (shadow warriors), as opposed to similar concept (Shades). Additionally, Corsairs could equip crossbows in Mordheim, and apparently (this is new to me, as I'm no TT buff) they could in the 5th edition as well.

I personally think Corsairs have more flavor than Shades, and another nod I like to bring up is the fact that the DE capitol is a Black Arc. The thing will be swarming with Corsairs by itself, so naturally they'll be NPCs. But it makes additional sense that Corsairs would be literally all over the place on Ulthuan since Malekith sent out "A fleet of Black Arcs" to take it back, and one is now docked on it's coast.

[Blaze]

In an act of shameless self promotion I refer you to a thread I started (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17074)

I would like to see Corsairs, but that video has been dicussed a lot on these forums. And anything that Paul says needs to be taken with a grain of salt so to speak.

[Grimfell Gromgear]

Slayers in the Cinematic.

'Nuff said.

[Deima]

I'm 100% sure Corsairs will make it into the game...


... as NPCs :p

[Bulwyf]

Engineers are ranged but also a jack of all trades class with interesting gimmicks. Why would it be impossible for Corsairs to offer range (repeater crossbow) with some different kind of tricks and gimmicks?

[Jeralin]

Engineers are ranged but also a jack of all trades class with interesting gimmicks. Why would it be impossible for Corsairs to offer range (repeater crossbow) with some different kind of tricks and gimmicks?

Traps, nets, smoke bombs and such, is what people are speculating.

[AlienOverlord]

Slayers in the Cinematic.

Slayers were one of the original planned classes. I think there are still early screenshots with them floating around until Mythic realized a class trying to seek out a Perma-death might need a little more thought :)

[Grimfell Gromgear]

Slayers were one of the original planned classes. I think there are still early screenshots with them floating around until Mythic realized a class trying to seek out a Perma-death might need a little more thought :)

Which is why you can't offer proof based on podcasts.

Even if they were in at that time as a class, that could've changed.

[Rik Riorik]

Corsairs could well be in. Methinks Buggywolf offers a perfectly good train of thought on the matter.


until Mythic realized a class trying to seek out a Perma-death might need a little more thought.

Definetly not wanting to hi-jack the thread but if one cannot find ways to work around the Slayers deathwish then one has the imagination of a blank piece of paper. Where there is a will there is a way.

If all other careers deaths and resurrections can be justified then its no harder to justify the unlucky player Slayers who never seem to be able to die.

There was never a need for permanent death for the Slayer just like there wasn't the need for it for the other careers. If a player Slayer would want to die all they had to do would be to never play the character again.

[Okigra]

I'm sure it would be possible to put corsairs in the game as ranged dps, but then again there are many DE careers who have access to crossbows. This doesn't necessarily make them good choices for ranged dps though.

Taken from the Warhammer dark elf manual:

Corsairs: These seafaring reavers excel at boarding other vessels, making them amongst our deadliest fighters in close combat.

Verses Shades: When the enemy is found and battle joined, your shades should harass them with their withering crossbow fire, disrupting their attack and leaving them easy prey for the rest of your army.

Personally, I am a fan of both corsairs and shades, but think the shade fits the role better. (I'm a bit biased as well)

IMO, the shade or sorceress makes the most sense for ranged dps, and this is dependent on what happens to the hybrid healer career.

Take no offense, this is only my opinion. :)

[Kaid]

.


Corsairs: These seafaring reavers excel at boarding other vessels, making them amongst our deadliest fighters in close combat.
:)

Here is my point. What you have is a group that excels at close combat. IDK how that makes them a better choice over the shade. But who knows? These loony Mythic people could pull some fast ones on us yet.

[The Masked Prince]

Oh come one...
Corsairs can have crossbow but they have nothing to do with a range DPS...
They are too closed to a witch elf to me.
Mythic could still adapt them for that, but why when another class suits better the role?:
The Shade.

And they won't be so similar with shadow warriors if shadow warriors have a pet, unlike shades, pure range DPS like the engineer.

[Vikingkingq]

So in other words, if you have one unit that can sometimes equip a crossbow, and another unit that is a ranged skirmishing unit of scouts, somehow the former is the better choice?

Shades are the elite ranged unit of the Dark Elf Empire, and present a very different face of the Dark Elf people. Unlike most Dark Elves who live in cities, the Shades are a clannish folk who live in the forbidding wilderness of the Blackspine Mountains, guarding the passes against the Chaos Spawn and other dangers that seek to invade the Land of Chill from the West. Unlike the sybaritic city-dwellers, the Shades live a spartan life, totally focused on survival through strength and cunning.

As such, they are the premier scouts of the Dark Elf army, sent ahead to locate the enemy and their movements, and then infiltrate, harass, and disrupt High Elf forces, softening them for the main forces. They would be perfectly matched against the Shadow Warriors, who are their fiercest rivals and the forces that they fight the most often.

In fact, the parallel works really well. Both live in the wilderness, apart from their main societies, both are descended from the hill clans of Nagarythe (one clan went for Malekith, the other for Caledor), both cling to the traditional nomadic way of life. They serve as dark mirrors of each other, reminding the Shades what they could have been had they succumbed to weakness, reminding the Shadow Warriors of the horrible price of treason.

[Jonas]

ninja vs ninja < ninja vs pirate ;)

[Vikingkingq]

ninja vs ninja < ninja vs pirate ;)

Neither side is ninja. It's more like Rangers v. Special Forces.

[Ilairon]

A fan of hyperbole, eh? :p That video doesn't really do anything to support or refute the playability of corsairs. It certainly doesn't give them at least a 90% chance. :rolleyes: There's plenty of arguments and reasons to include corsairs as a playable class, and Paul mentioning them in a podcast isn't one of them. Albeit, at the end of the day despite what may make the most sense, the decision's in Mythic's hands.

[Bulwyf]

I can see Mythic going with Sorceress as the ranged class and some kind of priest version of Khaine that Malus's brother was in the Darkblade series that blends melee with healing or having either the Shade or Corsair as the range class and Sorceress as the healer/caster with lifedraining as their unique skill.

There is also an outside shot they could just put in Beastmasters as a pure pet class as well. I noticed that while they said HE would be getting a pet class they did NOT say that Destruction would not also be getting another one.

Plus Mark Jacobs favorite race is Dark Elves and his favorite class to play is a pet class. What else fits better than Beastmaster?

[Kaid]

I can see Mythic going with Sorceress as the ranged class and some kind of priest version of Khaine that Malus's brother was in the Darkblade series that blends melee with healing or having either the Shade or Corsair as the range class and Sorceress as the healer/caster with lifedraining as their unique skill.


I want his axe and his eyes of brass :D

[HornedToad10]

Corsairs might have a 90% chance of NOT being playable.... Although I think it is more like 98%.

Besides, the other two DE classes will be Sorceress and Beastmaster. (IMO)

[Blaze]

Corsairs might have a 90% chance of NOT being playable.... Although I think it is more like 98%.

Besides, the other two DE classes will be Sorceress and Beastmaster. (IMO)

The Beastmaster would have to leave his beasts behind then. They have clearly said only one pet class per faction, and the High Elves will get one. What it could be is anyones guess.

[Bulwyf]

Actually all the devs said is that High Elves would be getting a pet class. They have never said only one pet class per side. Mark Jacobs favorite race is Dark Elves and his favorite class are pet classes. I can definitely see them sliding Beastmasters into either remaining slot.

[Blaze]

Actually all the devs said is that High Elves would be getting a pet class. They have never said only one pet class per side. Mark Jacobs favorite race is Dark Elves and his favorite class are pet classes. I can definitely see them sliding Beastmasters into either remaining slot.

I see. I stand corrected.

I would not mind seeing the Beastmaster myself. I just wonder how they will balance him? He won't be having a Hydra or anything...

[Bulwyf]

I am not advocating them, just saying that Mythic has never said one pet class per side. ;)

[Axxar]

Beastmasters... now that would be cool.

[Kellaris]

You mean: Petmasters.

[Bulwyf]

I want his axe and his eyes of brass :D

The one book, I think its the second or third one, where they are with the Corsairs he really did kick some major just in melee.

[Black Razor]

Definetly not wanting to hi-jack the thread but if one cannot find ways to work around the Slayers deathwish then one has the imagination of a blank piece of paper. Where there is a will there is a way.

Sure theres many different ways around it ..but then they wouldn't be Slayers. Thats the point of it .. the Slayer death seeking is at the core of what makes a Slayer a Slayer .. take that away or do a work around and theres no point in including the class. Might as well just give hammerers the ability to have orange mohawks. And that speaks to something that was said earlier in the thread...

Anyway I think it would be a better choice as a ranged dps than a shade given the fact that if given a Repeater Crossbow that they would pretty much be the same thing.

This is very true, but then why go with the making the Corsair the same as the Shade when the Shade is already available? Shades have many of the same things that draw most people to the Corsair .. cavalier flare, flowing cape .. but the difference is they already do the kinda stuff needed for the ranged DPS class in the lore .. Corsairs would need to be adapted.

Mythic has stated from the start .. though they have deviated a bit since .. that they are trying to make the game as true to feel and original to the IP as they can. This means that they have to stick to the esprit decor of the classes represented in Warhammer Tabletop .. OR .. like in the case of the Zealot .. devise a completely unique class that still matches the races feel. Some people site the Marauder as the fact that they arn't afraid to change the tabletop classes to make them fit ..but at the same time adding a chaos mutation isn't that much of a change if you consider characters are intended to be heroic types more then rank and file, and chaos heroes in TT can indeed take mutations as choices. This of course isn't an argument against the Corsair being adapted either ..as a Corsair style hero could certainly take a crossbow, but thats what leads us back to the fundamental core concept of the classes..

These seafaring reavers excel at boarding other vessels, making them amongst the deadliest fighters in close combat.

.. the very basic idea of Corsairs is they are experts at corps a corps combat .. close quarters fighting. That completely precludes them being modified into a ranged class and still being Corsairs. Shades on the other hand are essentially Dark Elf rangers, guarding the western mountain borders of the Dark Elf kingdoms against invasion... experts with both the sword and crossbow. More so they fit well with the stealth without stealth approach that Mythic is working towards with its 'roguish' classes. All that being what it is .. could corsairs be adapted to ranged DPS role and work .. absolutely .. would it make sense to do so .. no .. it really wouldn't. So far Mythic has picked classes that from a classic tabletop view, most fit the role they play.. and for Dark Elves .. thats Shades when it comes to ranged DPS (if you exclude basic units anyways).

[Kellaris]

Mythic has stated from the start .. though they have deviated a bit since .. that they are trying to make the game as true to feel and original to the IP as they can.

O Yes. And They make WE a hit and run class.
I agree that shades are best scouts available, but when it comes to shooting, they are no better than corsairs or warriors. All traps and such stuff have to be done either way.
Neither of them wil have such firepower as bright wizzard, so both of them will need to have some close combat skills.

The point is: do You prefer "Ranger" style or "Pirate" style.

In my opinion, if there is no stealth, pirate have moro options.
We have nets, hooks, thrown weapons, AoE options (bottle of acid for example), better HtH and recognizable cloak.
Vs traps, speed and.......

[zenarion]

What else can a Witch Elf be? Can't see them as tankers, or casters. So yeah, they fit in with their lore very nice.

As much as I love Corsairs, I want Mythic to work around the idea of having to wear the same damn Sea Dragon cloak through all the tiers.

Gooooo Corsairs! *crosses fingers*

[Xurré]

I agree that shades are best scouts available, but when it comes to shooting, they are no better than corsairs or warriors.
Ah yes, because that BS 5 that Bloodshades get doesn't actually mean that they're better at, you know, shooting things. :roll:


- Xurré

[Draculrom]

How can you take that Paul fool seriously? Anyone who wears shades in a dark room and yells alot cant be trusted!

[Ilairon]

This is very true, but then why go with the making the Corsair the same as the Shade when the Shade is already available? Shades have many of the same things that draw most people to the Corsair .. cavalier flare, flowing cape .. but the difference is they already do the kinda stuff needed for the ranged DPS class in the lore .. Corsairs would need to be adapted.

Mythic has stated from the start .. though they have deviated a bit since .. that they are trying to make the game as true to feel and original to the IP as they can. This means that they have to stick to the esprit decor of the classes represented in Warhammer Tabletop .. OR .. like in the case of the Zealot .. devise a completely unique class that still matches the races feel. Some people site the Marauder as the fact that they arn't afraid to change the tabletop classes to make them fit ..but at the same time adding a chaos mutation isn't that much of a change if you consider characters are intended to be heroic types more then rank and file, and chaos heroes in TT can indeed take mutations as choices. This of course isn't an argument against the Corsair being adapted either ..as a Corsair style hero could certainly take a crossbow, but thats what leads us back to the fundamental core concept of the classes..

.. the very basic idea of Corsairs is they are experts at corps a corps combat .. close quarters fighting. That completely precludes them being modified into a ranged class and still being Corsairs. Shades on the other hand are essentially Dark Elf rangers, guarding the western mountain borders of the Dark Elf kingdoms against invasion... experts with both the sword and crossbow. More so they fit well with the stealth without stealth approach that Mythic is working towards with its 'roguish' classes. All that being what it is .. could corsairs be adapted to ranged DPS role and work .. absolutely .. would it make sense to do so .. no .. it really wouldn't. So far Mythic has picked classes that from a classic tabletop view, most fit the role they play.. and for Dark Elves .. thats Shades when it comes to ranged DPS (if you exclude basic units anyways).


I thought about biting this off in bit-sized pieces but then it's all in that magenta purple so it'd be a pain to switch my color to black and then white. That said, I'll still try to mirror the discussion from top to bottom.

Shades don't really have cavalier flare, first-of-all. They're rustic. I haven't seen rustic used as a synonym for cavalier; more often it's used in place of things like homely, quaint, antiquated, brutish, or boorish. And second-of-all there's no need to make the corsair like the shade; that'd diminish both of them. I don't want to see corsairs out scouting or wandering the foothills, mountains, and laylands of Naggaroth as much as I don't expect to see shades out sailing ships, raiding villages, or fighting pitched battles. If your idea of making them the same is simply giving both of them repeater crossbows then yes, in that way they are the same. As are most Dark Elves. Repeater crossbows aren't a Shades-only weapon.

The difference isn't that Shades already do the stuff a ranged DPS class does and corsairs don't. The difference is how they perform those roles. The shades sneak around stealthily, hiding from the enemy, and popping out of the shadows to slit the enemy's throat or use his body as a pincushion for iron bolts. The corsairs hide if they can, but that's not where they really excel. They excel at fighting. Whether firing their uraithen, shooting a crossbow pistol or wrist crossbow, or cutting off their opponent's head in close combat, or manning a reaper bolt thrower. Both shades and corsairs fight dirty when possible; they're concerned more with strength than something as petty as fairness or honor. Both will use poisons, both will use concealed weapons, both make use of a combination of ranged and melee attacks. If Abnett and Lees' interpretation is to be taken as canon then Shades also make use of runic magic. And corsairs tend to make use of nets, grappels, and such sundry things. So the main difference, outside of the lore behind both, the concept, and the look: corsairs concentrate on their fighting, their tricks, their weapons, their bodies, and their minds whereas shades focus most of all on their stealth and their senses.

Deviating along with your second paragraph for a minute, it's fair to say that Mythic did blunder with the IP on the Marauder, the Chosen, the Magus and the Warrior Priest as well as the Dwarf females (perhaps, Dwarfs aren't really my forte as they're not really my cup of tea either). Nothing to do with the matter of mutations mind. A marauder champion would certainly have the blessings of his or her god. They blunder, really, was making Marauders and Chosen male-only despite lore to the contrary, especially in the case of the Marauders whilst citing it didn't really fit the concept of Chaos to have female warriors while at the same time making male and female warrior priests of Sigmar in contradiction of established lore. And a Chaos Magus of Tzeentch normally wears Chaos armor and is one of the most powerful units on tabletop, unburdened by the normal restraints of armor for spellcasters whereas the WAR rendition takes the cloth and light armor approach, which admittedly is more deviation than destruction of lore since there's nothing to stop a Chaos sorcerer from choosing a flashy gown over protective armor; well, nothing besides intelligence and common sense of course. Admittedly, game balance likely played the deciding factor there. And my very limited understanding of Dwarf culture means that while the women-folk should be hardy, they'd not be fighting on the front lines. Anywho, my main comment behind this is that Mythic has meandered around the lore, deviated from, and evolved it to suit their needs. They're not adamant to tabletop interpretation.

As to the last paragraph, the very basic idea of corsairs is that they're corsairs - nothing else. They're sailors. Pirates or privateers depending on your standpoint. They're raiders, slavers, pillagers, looters, plunderers, and often-times heavy drinkers too. They're avaricious; indeed, their guiding principle is their greed and heightened sense for self-preservation. They fight dirty, not for honor, not for the pride of their family name. They fight for wealth, they fight for themselves, and sometimes they fight because that's what they enjoy. They use repeater crossbows, crossbow pistols, throwing knives, axes, swords, daggers, and any ace-in-the-hole they've got access to. They fight tooth-and-nail, but they're not afraid to flee, especially when it's their neck on the line. And if they're lucky enough, strong enough, and wealthy enough they may have one of those nice little sea-dragon cloaks to boot. Unless they've got a flesh fetish, a la Mengil Manhide and his lovely little Manflayers.

Ah yes, because that BS 5 that Bloodshades get doesn't actually mean that they're better at, you know, shooting things. :roll:


- Xurré

Indeed BS 5 helps Bloodshades with shooting. But that same BS 5 also helps out Mengil's Manflayers who are in fact corsairs. Mengil himself sports a nice BS 6, which I daresay is better than the Bloodshade's BS 5. And Bloodshades aren't supposed to be run-of-the-mill in Autarii terms; they're the creme de la creme of Autarii society. A bloodshade or urhan certainly pales in comparison to a corsair noble or highborn who has BS 6 as well as better skills in just about anything and everything else except for the skirmishers and stealth rules, and we won't see stealth in-game, and since we won't see players forced into ranks skirmishers doesn't separate Shades from anyone else. Assuming your corsair picks up a sea dragon cloak along the way then he's also got a fairly interesting talent of being well-defended against ranged attacks. And all the general coolness of the cape and gimmicks therein, assuming you're a fan of gimmicks. And of course those dastardly High Elves are always trying to catch corsairs riding, sailing, and fighting dirty - pansy pricks, those High Elves. Mind corsairs do happen to fight dirtier than your average Temple warden, whether Executioner or Maibd or your city-living nobles with their silly concepts of honor, perverted as they may be through millenia spent in the Land of Chill. And if you're not a fan of Warhammer Fantasy Battle then scale it down to Mordheim where your Corsair has BS 4 and your Shade BS 3.

[CrossBre3d]

Well..

Squig Herder/ High Elf Pet Class- Pet Class
Bright Wiz/ Magus - Range spell caster
Engineer/ Possible Corsair- Range Dps with gadgets

This is just dumb pure bored as hell speculation.. Seeing how the classes have something in common the Bright Wiz and Magus are the caster, Squig and High elf pet class are the pet classes..As you can see there is a common factor between these classes

Now the Engineer is the Range class for dwarfs with gadgets, you know mines, bombs, traps and what not..So i was thinking the Corsair could be compared to them because of the Corsair use of nets, hooks and what not..

But that is just my dumb speculation..

[Kaid]

Its gonna be shade and sorceress there you have it lol. I am giving no argument except for the fact that everything I hope for in this game for the DE has been completely different than I had hoped. :(

And I really really really hope they don't give the shade something like poison arrows.... UGH

It will probably be just some guy with a fast crossbow

[mongoose]

There is also an outside shot they could just put in Beastmasters as a pure pet class as well. I noticed that while they said HE would be getting a pet class they did NOT say that Destruction would not also be getting another one.

Plus Mark Jacobs favorite race is Dark Elves and his favorite class to play is a pet class. What else fits better than Beastmaster?

People also seem to be completely ignoring the fact that the Engineer could be classified as a pet class because they have a drop and forget weapon just like the Animist in DAoC (and they are called a pet class)

So if we consider the Engineer to balance the Squig Herder this would mean that there would need to be a pet class on the DE side to balance out the HE one.

To that end I would say that we will see a Sorcerer(ess) and a Beastmaster (just put a whip in one hand and a repeater crossbow in the other and we are set!)

As to what the Beast master would control? :confused: Nothing says they are limited to just WAR Hydras and Manticores......thats limiting for TT purposes only so they could use virtually any appropriate beast (although a hydra that grows heads as it gains in power would be spectacular :cool:)

Edit: In looking through the concept art......hows about a nice sabre-toothed kitty creature (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=533&c=3) to match the inevitable White Lion's lion? :mrgreen: (or maybe even a nice puppy dog (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=488&c=3))

I will say though that whatever the choice for the last class, be it; Corsair (or Reaver...I like that better :twisted:), Beastmaster or Shade, it will be a fine addition to the Dark Elves.

Oh yes and we WILL see Corsairs in the game simply because the DE are invading on ships and which unit is all about the ship??? :rolleyes:

[Tiervexx]

I'm 100% sure Corsairs will make it into the game...


... as NPCs :p

yep! lol.

They have a 0% chance of making it as a playable class at this point.

[Jonas]

One of the best posts I've read

Good Sir, I wanted to quote this again because it is a) well written and erudite and b) capture the entire point of the 'ranged corsair' argument.

It's not about rules, it's about fluff. Fluffwise, the Corsair is the best choice for the Dark Elves; he brings the most unique elements to the table, compared to his allies and his adversaries, and that is very good.

A lot of people are stuck in how they play in a TT sense and they can't see beyond that. I can understand that to a degree, but I really hope some of them read the quoted post because it conveys everything I wanted to say about Corsairs in a manner that I could not manage.

[Jonas]

So if we consider the Engineer to balance the Squig Herder this would mean that there would need to be a pet class on the DE side to balance out the HE one.


WHY?

Why do we need to have mirror like balance. We don't see it in almost every other element of the game. Hell, we're running into the classic debuffer vs buffer situation if we try and find "matches" in the opposing lineup (Just quietly, debuffer =/= buffer).

Mythic has not said they are trying to match the sides. It's just an argument that people on the forums seem to think is absolute truth. Let me clarify that: It is VERY possible that the factions are NOT intended to be balanced for numbers of pet classes, numbers of melee healers, numbers of buffers and debuffers or whatever. Maybe they are, but building your argument around the idea that they HAVE to be is weak because it's foundation is something that only may be true.

[mongoose]

WHY?

Why do we need to have mirror like balance. We don't see it in almost every other element of the game. Hell, we're running into the classic debuffer vs buffer situation if we try and find "matches" in the opposing lineup (Just quietly, debuffer =/= buffer).

Mythic has not said they are trying to match the sides. It's just an argument that people on the forums seem to think is absolute truth. Let me clarify that: It is VERY possible that the factions are NOT intended to be balanced for numbers of pet classes, numbers of melee healers, numbers of buffers and debuffers or whatever. Maybe they are, but building your argument around the idea that they HAVE to be is weak because it's foundation is something that only may be true.

Actually with the Elves Jeff did specifically say they were a mirror of each other.

And Im not trying to say that Mythic said it but if you cant see the evidence of the other classes thus far then you must be blind.

Also there is a difference between an exact opposite clone and having a lose balance (which the sides HAVE to have anyway to fulfill the 4 base classes). Even if its a White Lion with lion and a Beastmaster with pet on the other side they will not be exact opposites because one would be melee DPS and the other would be ranged DPS with a pet.......similar sure but not the same by any stretch of the imagination.

[Jonas]

Actually with the Elves Jeff did specifically say they were a mirror of each other.

Do you have a reference for that? Of the recollection that I have, they were speaking about personal qualities. One side being the "with great power comes great responsibility" side and the other "Wooohoo, I gots the power!" side.

[Gemini]

Do you have a reference for that? Of the recollection that I have, they were speaking about personal qualities. One side being the "with great power comes great responsibility" side and the other "Wooohoo, I gots the power!" side.

Yeah, he wasn't talking about the classes.

[Black Razor]

I thought about biting this off in bit-sized pieces but then it's all in that magenta purple so it'd be a pain to switch my color to black and then white. That said, I'll still try to mirror the discussion from top to bottom.

Shades don't really have cavalier flare, first-of-all. They're rustic. I haven't seen rustic used as a synonym for cavalier; more often it's used in place of things like homely, quaint, antiquated, brutish, or boorish. And second-of-all there's no need to make the corsair like the shade; that'd diminish both of them. I don't want to see corsairs out scouting or wandering the foothills, mountains, and laylands of Naggaroth as much as I don't expect to see shades out sailing ships, raiding villages, or fighting pitched battles. If your idea of making them the same is simply giving both of them repeater crossbows then yes, in that way they are the same. As are most Dark Elves. Repeater crossbows aren't a Shades-only weapon.

Rustic is a term never to applied to an elf. Shades are neither quaint, brutish, or boring. Cavalier when referring to appearance is reflective of flamboyant style represented by flowing clothing .. both of which the Shade and Corsair possess. You make the assumption that because they live in and guard the mountains they must be burly mountain men ..but if you knew anything of the shades ..you would know thats not the case. And as a note, I never said simply give corsairs a repeater crossbow .. in fact everything I argued is against it .. thats the point.. in the current tabletop rule set they cannot wield them as unit type.. shades on the other hand DO specialize in shooting over melee as Xurre already pointed a few posts back with there higher BS level.

The difference isn't that Shades already do the stuff a ranged DPS class does and corsairs don't. The difference is how they perform those roles. The shades sneak around stealthily, hiding from the enemy, and popping out of the shadows to slit the enemy's throat or use his body as a pincushion for iron bolts. The corsairs hide if they can, but that's not where they really excel. They excel at fighting. Whether firing their uraithen, shooting a crossbow pistol or wrist crossbow, or cutting off their opponent's head in close combat, or manning a reaper bolt thrower. Both shades and corsairs fight dirty when possible; they're concerned more with strength than something as petty as fairness or honor. Both will use poisons, both will use concealed weapons, both make use of a combination of ranged and melee attacks. If Abnett and Lees' interpretation is to be taken as canon then Shades also make use of runic magic. And corsairs tend to make use of nets, grappels, and such sundry things. So the main difference, outside of the lore behind both, the concept, and the look: corsairs concentrate on their fighting, their tricks, their weapons, their bodies, and their minds whereas shades focus most of all on their stealth and their senses.

Everything in bold has no truth to the Corsairs as represented in tabletop... at all. There ability to use any ranged weapons was dropped out completely, they have never used poison... there use of nets and grapples is all subjective reasoning on the part of people on the boards based on stereotypical pirate tactics. You are however correct that shades do use both melee and ranged ..but as I posted (with quotation from the website) in my previous post by Games workshops own volition .. Corsairs are CLOSE COMBAT SPECIALISTS. Mythic has stated they are only drawing from the tabletop rules for there decisions when it comes to the game. Other sources such as novels, the RPG, and campaigns will not be cannon when it comes to WAR.

Deviating along with your second paragraph for a minute, it's fair to say that Mythic did blunder with the IP on the Marauder, the Chosen, the Magus and the Warrior Priest as well as the Dwarf females (perhaps, Dwarfs aren't really my forte as they're not really my cup of tea either). Nothing to do with the matter of mutations mind. A marauder champion would certainly have the blessings of his or her god. They blunder, really, was making Marauders and Chosen male-only despite lore to the contrary, especially in the case of the Marauders whilst citing it didn't really fit the concept of Chaos to have female warriors while at the same time making male and female warrior priests of Sigmar in contradiction of established lore. And a Chaos Magus of Tzeentch normally wears Chaos armor and is one of the most powerful units on tabletop, unburdened by the normal restraints of armor for spellcasters whereas the WAR rendition takes the cloth and light armor approach, which admittedly is more deviation than destruction of lore since there's nothing to stop a Chaos sorcerer from choosing a flashy gown over protective armor; well, nothing besides intelligence and common sense of course. Admittedly, game balance likely played the deciding factor there. And my very limited understanding of Dwarf culture means that while the women-folk should be hardy, they'd not be fighting on the front lines. Anywho, my main comment behind this is that Mythic has meandered around the lore, deviated from, and evolved it to suit their needs. They're not adamant to tabletop interpretation.

90% of this has nothing to do with the matter at hand. The gender choices are what they are and though they deviate from lore yes, they don't change how classes fundamentally work. My point about the Marauder which you apparently missed completely is that yes they added the mutation element to them .. its something that is represented in the current chaos ruleset (if you concider them on a hero standpoint) and doesn't change how they are played in respect to there role as a class .. however altering Corsairs to be a ranged profession would, and to do so wouldn't make them Dark Elf Corsairs in terms of how they are represented in Warhammer anymore.

As to the last paragraph, the very basic idea of corsairs is that they're corsairs - nothing else. They're sailors. Pirates or privateers depending on your standpoint. They're raiders, slavers, pillagers, looters, plunderers, and often-times heavy drinkers too. They're avaricious; indeed, their guiding principle is their greed and heightened sense for self-preservation. They fight dirty, not for honor, not for the pride of their family name. They fight for wealth, they fight for themselves, and sometimes they fight because that's what they enjoy. They use repeater crossbows, crossbow pistols, throwing knives, axes, swords, daggers, and any ace-in-the-hole they've got access to. They fight tooth-and-nail, but they're not afraid to flee, especially when it's their neck on the line. And if they're lucky enough, strong enough, and wealthy enough they may have one of those nice little sea-dragon cloaks to boot. Unless they've got a flesh fetish, a la Mengil Manhide and his lovely little Manflayers.

The majority of what you speak of here is again .. subjective speculation based on standard representations of what it is to be a pirate, and a fair majority of it isnt represented in lore or representations of Dark Elf Corsairs presented in the fiction.

Indeed BS 5 helps Bloodshades with shooting. But that same BS 5 also helps out Mengil's Manflayers who are in fact corsairs. Mengil himself sports a nice BS 6, which I daresay is better than the Bloodshade's BS 5. And Bloodshades aren't supposed to be run-of-the-mill in Autarii terms; they're the creme de la creme of Autarii society. A bloodshade or urhan certainly pales in comparison to a corsair noble or highborn who has BS 6 as well as better skills in just about anything and everything else except for the skirmishers and stealth rules, and we won't see stealth in-game, and since we won't see players forced into ranks skirmishers doesn't separate Shades from anyone else. Assuming your corsair picks up a sea dragon cloak along the way then he's also got a fairly interesting talent of being well-defended against ranged attacks. And all the general coolness of the cape and gimmicks therein, assuming you're a fan of gimmicks. And of course those dastardly High Elves are always trying to catch corsairs riding, sailing, and fighting dirty - pansy pricks, those High Elves. Mind corsairs do happen to fight dirtier than your average Temple warden, whether Executioner or Maibd or your city-living nobles with their silly concepts of honor, perverted as they may be through millenia spent in the Land of Chill. And if you're not a fan of Warhammer Fantasy Battle then scale it down to Mordheim where your Corsair has BS 4 and your Shade BS 3.

Manflayers are NOT corsairs .. they are a Dog of War unit with there own special rules, and are in fact a hybridization of the shade and corsair classes. Making a comment like 'A bloodshade or urhan certainly pales in comparison to a corsair noble or highborn who has BS 6 as well as better skills' is simply absurd .. your comparing a unit command model to a hero .. by the same logic a shade nobel or highborn could have higher because base unit wise theres is already higher. Also there is no assuming a Corsair picks up the Sea dragon cloak .. in table top they have em .. period .. its really there only shtick... if they don't have one they arn't Corsairs.

Obviously by your statements and the tone of your post you prefer Corsairs .. which is fine. I personally don't prefer shades to corsairs or vice versa .. I want them to pick what is best for the game .. period ..and by that I mean what is the most true representation of the Dark Elf race .. ranged fighting corsairs over shades isn't much of an argument in that light to me. Corsairs and Shades both are very interesting units .. both have alot going for them .. but to me .. only one is right for the role .. and thats the Shade.

[mongoose]

Yeah, he wasn't talking about the classes.

Actually THAT we dont know. Yes he was speaking more about the two races overall but that could very well go right dow the line to the classes themselves. ;)

[Kellaris]

Xurre already pointed a few posts back with there higher BS level.

Bloodshade has better BS. He is not the ordinary shade, but a champion.
And his BS 5 is a clear message: "stay away from CC or You are dead". This does not affect overal unit firepower. Shades areused as shooting unit becouse of scouting and skirmish. And lack of CC skills.


Everything in bold has no truth to the Corsairs as represented in tabletop... at all.
You stick too much to TT. You cannot build any character only looking at TT skills. Mythic makes many many skills that has no real connection to TT. Examples: WE escape move, Choppa throwing weapons, Engineer rapid fire and turrets (40k technology), Runesmith casting spells, etc, etc.

[Blaze]

@Ilairon

Great post. You perfectly explained why I would like to see Corsairs for the Dark Elves. It's not about what they are on the table top. Mythic has already shown they are making their own game.
It's what they have potential to be that matters. And I personally see that Corsairs have potential to be a much more interesting class than the Shade.

I don't see why people so opposed to seeing Corsairs in a role that deviates from what they are on the TT in the current edition.

Corsairs would perfectly fill a niche that is still open on the destruction side. The jack of all trades type ranged class. Focusing on a combination of repeater crossbow use, snaring and other kinds of CC as well as decent melee capabilities.
A versatile damage dealer that would stand in front of the Sorceress and behind the Black Guard and Witch Elf. Using thrown nets and suppressing ranged fire to be the last line of defence and prevent melee classes from chewing up the casters. He would also be good at preventing people from escaping of course.

So you say: Well, the Shade could do those things. But the Corsair has more flavor as Ilairon illustrated in his post.
And therefor a better choice (IMO obviously :P)

[Feigro]

So you say: Well, the Shade could do those things. But the Corsair has more flavor as Ilairon illustrated in his post.
And therefor a better choice (IMO obviously :P)

Additionally, though this is my opinion, I would see the flair and atmosphere of the Shade would conflict with that of the Shadow Warrior, if the SW is indeed the High Elf ranged class. They're far too similiar aesthetically, imo.

So if Corsairs (with repeaters) and Shades are pretty much the same guy. Yet one has a unique background, whilst the other's background implies he's more appropriate for the role. I could see either one being picked. Personally I would prefer the more diverse one, especially considering the setting.

Shades are protectors from the northern wastes (not that they aren't used in war)

Corsairs are raiders and slavers that ride around in ships, which include Black Arcs.

Which one do you think is more likely to be found on Ulthuan (in greater numbers, even), considering the current setting? The rest of the world? My bet would be Corsairs all over the place, rather than Shades.

[Kellaris]

Just a thought. From all known "corsair" podcast.
Even if we forget about "he is one of ours..." stuff.
Why it is the Corsair that hates Shadow Warriors?
Corsair can't stand SW. Not a Shade. Not a Hag. Not a Knight. A Corsair.
If I can think witch DE units (TT thinking ON) can be afraid of Shadow Warriors, Corsairs are the last in the line.
In Fluff they are not supposed to meet to often (Corsairs plundering rich shores and Shadow Warriors live in their forgotten mountains).
So, why Paul put a Corsair as a direct opposition to Shadow Warrior??

Not a big hint but still....

BTW. Why Corsair Avatars are gone??

[Jonas]

So, why Paul put a Corsair as a direct opposition to Shadow Warrior??

Well, there's this thing, where corsairs like to sail around and attack places. There's this other thing, where the Shadow Warriors like to patrol Ulthuan's shorelines and defend against raiders. I can't imagine these two things help them get along.

[The Masked Prince]

People also seem to be completely ignoring the fact that the Engineer could be classified as a pet class because they have a drop and forget weapon just like the Animist in DAoC (and they are called a pet class)

So if we consider the Engineer to balance the Squig Herder this would mean that there would need to be a pet class on the DE side to balance out the HE one.

To that end I would say that we will see a Sorcerer(ess) and a Beastmaster (just put a whip in one hand and a repeater crossbow in the other and we are set!)

As to what the Beast master would control? :confused: Nothing says they are limited to just WAR Hydras and Manticores......thats limiting for TT purposes only so they could use virtually any appropriate beast (although a hydra that grows heads as it gains in power would be spectacular :cool:)

Edit: In looking through the concept art......hows about a nice sabre-toothed kitty creature (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=533&c=3) to match the inevitable White Lion's lion? :mrgreen: (or maybe even a nice puppy dog (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=488&c=3))

I will say though that whatever the choice for the last class, be it; Corsair (or Reaver...I like that better :twisted:), Beastmaster or Shade, it will be a fine addition to the Dark Elves.

Oh yes and we WILL see Corsairs in the game simply because the DE are invading on ships and which unit is all about the ship??? :rolleyes:

and the Shade, or the corsair could also be classified like a pet class with his traps or something, not true pet class, but as the enginneer, against the HE pet class.

[Xurré]

Bloodshade has better BS. He is not the ordinary shade, but a champion.
Ok, let's compare that against the Corsair champion then: the Reaver. Oh look, it's still higher.

Don't forget, we're not playing base characters, we are playing champions and heroes. Besides, it was just to point out that Shades are much more range-oriented than Corsairs (as if the fact that not only can they get a repeater crossbow they get one as standard isn't enough).


Why it is the Corsair that hates Shadow Warriors?
Corsair can't stand SW. Not a Shade. Not a Hag. Not a Knight. A Corsair.
If I can think witch DE units (TT thinking ON) can be afraid of Shadow Warriors, Corsairs are the last in the line.
Shadow Warriors are high elves... and all dark elves hate high elves (and all high elves are "Stoic" against dark elves). Arguing for one class based on their hatred towards another one is a slippery slope at best.


Of course, I still think it might be Beastmasters for the ranged slot, making the whole "Corsair vs Shade" argument academic. ;)


- Xurré

[Grimfell Gromgear]

Ok, let's compare this to Dwarfs eh? Since we can look at a race that's already been done.

We got Engineers.
Engineers are captains for warmachine crews. And, they don't come default armed with handguns or with pistols.

They get light armor and a handweapon. They have to invest extra points to get ranged weapons.

Thunderers come default with a handgun, and their Veterans can choose to swap that with dual pistols.

But still, we got engineers. (Which were definitely hands down the better choice for any number of reasons I could bother going into.)

Anyways, point being. Engineers don't even handle like they do on the tabletop, (they get all sorts of nifty gadgets and aren't tied down to warmachines).

Just because Corsairs don't come default with repeaters doesn't mean they're not going to be the 'ranged' choice.

[Vikingkingq]

Additionally, though this is my opinion, I would see the flair and atmosphere of the Shade would conflict with that of the Shadow Warrior, if the SW is indeed the High Elf ranged class. They're far too similiar aesthetically, imo.

So if Corsairs (with repeaters) and Shades are pretty much the same guy. Yet one has a unique background, whilst the other's background implies he's more appropriate for the role. I could see either one being picked. Personally I would prefer the more diverse one, especially considering the setting.

Shades are protectors from the northern wastes (not that they aren't used in war)

Corsairs are raiders and slavers that ride around in ships, which include Black Arcs.

Which one do you think is more likely to be found on Ulthuan (in greater numbers, even), considering the current setting? The rest of the world? My bet would be Corsairs all over the place, rather than Shades.

The fact that Shades and Shadow Warriors are similar is an advantage, not a problem - it accentuates the storyline of the civil war, since we have two rival clans of the Nagarythe highlands. Gamewise, there's a lot you could do, pitting Shades with a higher base rate of fire and a tendency to use poisons and other nasty stuff against Shadow Warriors with slower, more powerful attacks, and lots of traps and whatnot.

Here's my problem with the argument being made about background: it's all a matter of personal interpretation. I find the Shade to be more interesting/unique than the Corsair, who I see as essentially a regular Druchii warrior with a special cloak who doesn't even normally carry a crossbow. You disagree. But there isn't an objective answer to this.

And to answer your last question, you would expect the Shade to be the Dark Elf the Shadow Warrior fights the most. Corsairs are assault troops who hit the beaches, grab what they can, then run back to the ships. Simply put, the Corsairs don't have the skills needed to keep up with the Shadow Warriors in the kind of mountainous guerrilla warfare that the Shadow Warriors use. By contrast, Shades are scouts, who infiltrate ahead of the main army to scout and harass the enemy - and that's exactly what the Shadow Warrior does, so you'd expect the two units to often clash in attempts to counter-infiltrate, deny the enemy reconnaissance information, or flank/protect the flank.

[Xurré]

Ok, let's compare this to Dwarfs eh? Since we can look at a race that's already been done.

We got Engineers.
Engineers are captains for warmachine crews. And, they don't come default armed with handguns or with pistols.

They get light armor and a handweapon. They have to invest extra points to get ranged weapons.

Thunderers come default with a handgun, and their Veterans can choose to swap that with dual pistols.

But still, we got engineers. (Which were definitely hands down the better choice for any number of reasons I could bother going into.)

Anyways, point being. Engineers don't even handle like they do on the tabletop, (they get all sorts of nifty gadgets and aren't tied down to warmachines).

Just because Corsairs don't come default with repeaters doesn't mean they're not going to be the 'ranged' choice.
Yes, and that's why I think that Beastmasters stand a much better choice than either Corsairs or Shades.

Engineering is very much what dwarves are all about, so they made an engineering class. For dark elves using vile monsters and using slaves as animals and beasts of burden, cruelly forcing these to do what they want them to do is very much what dark elves are all about. That is how they fight wars.

If they don't take a class based on that but, instead, look at what class better fits the role then it's Shades hands down.


- Xurré

[zoa]

Alright you have always fought for accurate Lore Xurre, so how do you plan on implementing hydras and such? What, do they get baby hydras or something? I really don't see how they can do them any justice within an MMO. You all seem to state we are champions and such, so would a champion Beastmaster be using a cat named fluffy as his pet? I just don't see why they would do that when they could implement shades as the ranged class.

[Blaze]

Here's my problem with the argument being made about background: it's all a matter of personal interpretation. I find the Shade to be more interesting/unique than the Corsair, who I see as essentially a regular Druchii warrior with a special cloak who doesn't even normally carry a crossbow. You disagree. But there isn't an objective answer to this.

This is what it boils down to anyway. Which is cooler. And that it entirely a matter of opinion.

I don't think Corsairs are anything like regual warriors with a special cloak. Thats essentially what they are on the tabletop, but for me the fluff is what matters.

When I think of Corsairs it reminds me of book two from the Malus Darkblade series. Malus's older brother, I forget his name. The one that spent all his time out pillaging and bringing home vast amounts of slaves and loot. He was in high standing with his house, a respected Corsair captain and great warrior. And his first mate... that female dark elf corsair with scars all over her. Those are corsairs.

I mean, they are raiders and slavers, the terror of the coasts of both the Old World and Ulthuan. They might not be much better than normal warriors on the TT, but they have soo much more flavor. More so than even the Shades, which I find a bit boring. Not even real druchii and too similar to Shadow Warriors in my mind.

Dark Elf society is entriely dependant on what they can steal from others and the labour they get from slaves. Without Corsairs that society would not work. They are one of the most important aspects of dark elf culture, if not the most important. Compare that to Shades, some hill tribes that sometimes work as mercenary scouts.

Corsairs embody they Druchii greed and selfishness that sustains them and keeps their culture alive. And thats why having them as a class would be right move IMO.

[Xurré]

Alright you have always fought for accurate Lore Xurre, so how do you plan on implementing hydras and such? What, do they get baby hydras or something? I really don't see how they can do them any justice within an MMO. You all seem to state we are champions and such, so would a champion Beastmaster be using a cat named fluffy as his pet? I just don't see why they would do that when they could implement shades as the ranged class.
Since when are hydras the only beasts that Beastmasters can have in the lore?
Since the distant days of Nagarythe, our folk have been experts at bending beasts and animals to our will. However, some show exceptional aptitude in this, and can command even the unruliest beasts with a single word. They are the famed Beastmasters. When a child shows talent for taming animals he is sent to the city of Karond Kar to study under the masters who dwell there.

The Beastmasters are also in charge of the slaves, for humans, Orcs and their like are no more than beasts themselves. Beastmasters are experts at getting the most out of their stock, and are always chosen from amongst the most robust and resourceful of our folk.
Nowhere does it say that they only train hydras, quite the opposite as it says they train all kinds of beasts including slaves (and on the same page it specifically names steeds and Cold Ones as examples) and their special rule applies to all monsters, not just hydras.

And there's quite a lot of options beyond a "cat named fluffy" for them to control, for example the old army book lists the following monsters one can include in their army:

War Hydra
Chimera
Cockatrice
Dark Pegasus
Dragon (various kinds)
Giant Scorpion
Gigantic Spider
Griffon
Hippogriff
Manticore
Wyvern
Swarms (various kinds, like lizards, bats or serpents)
I can very easily see them have a Giant Scorpion as a beast, or perhaps they control slaves (that would be an interesting approach). Or they could perhaps get different beasts (already implemented for PvE for example) as they level where they could end at level 40 with a hydra perhaps. Or maybe they are the way in which Mythic is including Cold Ones (not as a mount, but as a beast of war).

To make them a bit more ranged they could be given a repeater crossbow (hey, if we can give one to Corsairs then we can give one to a Beastmaster) and they can already wear a Sea Dragon Cloak.

I'm not saying that they're a career, but that they seem more likely than Corsairs (as Shades seem more likely than Corsairs too). And I also feel that they're more likely than Shades unless Mythic really doesn't want to include another pet class.

For me, I don't mind any of the three. The only thing I really mind is if they make up a new class (like some kind of Blood Acolyte nonsense for healer, making Sorceress ranged). And I personally find Corsairs the least interesting choice they could pick; Shades and Beastmasters both are more interesting for various reasons (which I've talked about numerous times already).


- Xurré

[Vikingkingq]

More so than even the Shades, which I find a bit boring. Not even real druchii and too similar to Shadow Warriors in my mind.

Dark Elf society is entriely dependant on what they can steal from others and the labour they get from slaves. Without Corsairs that society would not work. They are one of the most important aspects of dark elf culture, if not the most important. Compare that to Shades, some hill tribes that sometimes work as mercenary scouts.

Corsairs embody they Druchii greed and selfishness that sustains them and keeps their culture alive. And thats why having them as a class would be right move IMO.

By contrast, the Shades are purest Dark Elves of them all, exemplifying strength and cunning, self-reliance, and independence. They don't need the Corsairs' slaves, because they haven't fallen prey to the effete decadence of the city-dwellers, they retain the traditions of the nomadic Nagarothi, maintaining their strength through wilderness living and constant skirmishing, guarding the rest of Dark Elf society from the Chaos Hordes who pour over the border, exposing weak children on the rocks, and maintaining their grasp on the homeland by any means necessary.

To me, the Shades exemplify the ethos of the Dark Elves - purity through strength, survival above all. None of this Slaaneshi nonsense - the Shades bow to Malekith or none at all.

[Black Razor]

This is what it boils down to anyway. Which is cooler. And that it entirely a matter of opinion.

I don't think Corsairs are anything like regual warriors with a special cloak. Thats essentially what they are on the tabletop, but for me the fluff is what matters.

When I think of Corsairs it reminds me of book two from the Malus Darkblade series. Malus's older brother, I forget his name. The one that spent all his time out pillaging and bringing home vast amounts of slaves and loot. He was in high standing with his house, a respected Corsair captain and great warrior. And his first mate... that female dark elf corsair with scars all over her. Those are corsairs.

I mean, they are raiders and slavers, the terror of the coasts of both the Old World and Ulthuan. They might not be much better than normal warriors on the TT, but they have soo much more flavor. More so than even the Shades, which I find a bit boring. Not even real druchii and too similar to Shadow Warriors in my mind.

Dark Elf society is entriely dependant on what they can steal from others and the labour they get from slaves. Without Corsairs that society would not work. They are one of the most important aspects of dark elf culture, if not the most important. Compare that to Shades, some hill tribes that sometimes work as mercenary scouts.

Corsairs embody they Druchii greed and selfishness that sustains them and keeps their culture alive. And thats why having them as a class would be right move IMO.

You overplay the importance of Corsairs in Druchii society... they are the marines who serve on the black arcs and smaller vessels, and though yes they play an important part both militarily when attacking the High Elves, and economically from slave raiding .. theres no indication the entire economy or society of the Dark Elves is in any way based purely on there exploits .. its only one facet. There are stories in the Dark Elf hand book describing in land raids, and considering that Naggaroth is surrounded on three sides by land, its foolish to think they are a purely naval driven society. You also underplay the Shades to prove your opinion .. they arn't some hill tribe .. they are a hardened brotherhood of warriors whose duty is to protect the mountain passes of the west which lead to the frozen lands and chaos wastes .. there diligence keeps the empire from fighting a war on two fronts .. that doesn't exactly qualify them as mercenaries, but they are considered expert scouts and skirmishers which makes them every bit as valid on the field of war as the corsairs. As passionately as people argue for the Corsairs I almost hope you do get them .. but look at all sides .. as many people have said ..there arn't alot of differences between a Shade and a Corsair with a Crossbow .. but which is more true to the lore? Tabletop, Novel, or Other. Shades are intended to be a shooting unit .. Corsairs are intended for close combat. It just doesn't make sense to me to change them so fundamentally when theres already a unit that does the job available.

You stick too much to TT. You cannot build any character only looking at TT skills. Mythic makes many many skills that has no real connection to TT. Examples: WE escape move, Choppa throwing weapons, Engineer rapid fire and turrets (40k technology), Runesmith casting spells, etc, etc.

I stick to TT because thats what Mythic has said they are basing this game off of. And I agree you have to flesh out characters .. but you don't change the fundamental concept in doing so. Does the Witch Elf escape move change how witch elves are played? No. Does a choppa having a throwing weapon attack while remaining core to melee DPS? No. Do Engineers having turrets .. no.. okay its weird but in tabletop engineers are mostly focused around artillery and they couldn't go giving each player there own cannon... it still remains true to the core of the engineer. Runesmith 'spells' can be interpreted in alot of ways, and not necessarily making them magic casters.. and it still remains core to the way Rune priests are represented in TT. Corsairs in TT are close combat specialists .. the book clearly states it. Its the core of there function .. take that away and you break that core .. yes you still have lore to fall back on for identity .. but is that enough? People argue all the time against the Sorceress playing a support caster role but thats not what the sorceress is supposed to be about .. but alot of those people are the same ones saying duct tape a repeater crossbow to the Corsair and ship it .. and thats what confuses me so much about this.

Of course, I still think it might be Beastmasters for the ranged slot, making the whole "Corsair vs Shade" argument academic. ;)


- Xurré

I said this along time ago in one of the old Elf class threads and everyone shot the idea down. :cry:

I think the Beastmaster could make an interesting ranged class if done in a proper way, and I don't mean just given em a crossbow either. How cool would it be if the beastmaster commanded a pet that ranged attacked for them. Would be a whole different approach to both the ranged DPS role and to pet classes in general. :D

[Illya]

I stick to TT because thats what Mythic has said they are basing this game off of. And I agree you have to flesh out characters .. but you don't change the fundamental concept in doing so. Does the Witch Elf escape move change how witch elves are played? No. Does a choppa having a throwing weapon attack while remaining core to melee DPS? No. Do Engineers having turrets .. no.. okay its weird but in tabletop engineers are mostly focused around artillery and they couldn't go giving each player there own cannon... it still remains true to the core of the engineer. Runesmith 'spells' can be interpreted in alot of ways, and not necessarily making them magic casters.. and it still remains core to the way Rune priests are represented in TT. Corsairs in TT are close combat specialists .. the book clearly states it. Its the core of there function .. take that away and you break that core .. yes you still have lore to fall back on for identity .. but is that enough? People argue all the time against the Sorceress playing a support caster role but thats not what the sorceress is supposed to be about .. but alot of those people are the same ones saying duct tape a repeater crossbow to the Corsair and ship it .. and thats what confuses me so much about this.


First: the colour of your font is really annoying when quoting it. But that aside, Mythic isn't taking 'only from TT' as you state. They're taking from all sources, and that has been stated numerous times in various threads, quoted as well.

And if you want to go TT, Corsairs had crossbows as an option in the previous version of the army book. Not to mention in Mordheim (or the expansion or whatever for Mordheim), where they not only have a higher BS than Shades (which Ilairon pointed out, but everyone seemed to ignore), but they also have nets, hooks, and of course, crossbows there too.

So it's hardly inventing anything, since that's what you're calling it. Hell, if you want to talk about using TT only, then Beastmasters wouldn't be able to use crossbows, and would only have a huge multi-headed monster breathing fire and death as their pet. Yeah, that'd make for a good class...

That being said, it's not like I have any hope left for Corsairs making it into the game. I think it's a given sorceress will be one class, because I'll be shocked if Dark Elves end up without a magic class. As for the remaining class, I just have a bad feeling corsairs are going to be ignored.

[mongoose]

And there's quite a lot of options beyond a "cat named fluffy" for them to control, for example the old army book lists the following monsters one can include in their army:

War Hydra
Chimera
Cockatrice
Dark Pegasus
Dragon (various kinds)
Giant Scorpion
Gigantic Spider
Griffon
Hippogriff
Manticore
Wyvern
Swarms (various kinds, like lizards, bats or serpents)I can very easily see them have a Giant Scorpion as a beast, or perhaps they control slaves (that would be an interesting approach). Or they could perhaps get different beasts (already implemented for PvE for example) as they level where they could end at level 40 with a hydra perhaps. Or maybe they are the way in which Mythic is including Cold Ones (not as a mount, but as a beast of war).

To make them a bit more ranged they could be given a repeater crossbow (hey, if we can give one to Corsairs then we can give one to a Beastmaster) and they can already wear a Sea Dragon Cloak.


lol, thats about what I said yesterday (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=446608&postcount=40) in this thread but noone seemed to care :p


"To that end I would say that we will see a Sorcerer(ess) and a Beastmaster (just put a whip in one hand and a repeater crossbow in the other and we are set!)

As to what the Beast master would control? :confused: Nothing says they are limited to just WAR Hydras and Manticores......thats limiting for TT purposes only so they could use virtually any appropriate beast (although a hydra that grows heads as it gains in power would be spectacular :cool:)

Edit: In looking through the concept art......hows about a nice sabre-toothed kitty creature (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=533&c=3) to match the inevitable White Lion's lion? :mrgreen: (or maybe even a nice puppy dog (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=488&c=3))"

[Feigro]

Mythic has actually stated on various accounts that WAR is not a direct translation of the TT, but rather a interpretation of the Warhammer IP as a whole. It's an MMORPG based on Warhammer, an idea that encompasses the TT, the roleplaying game, various novels, and other avenues that make up the core of what Warhammer is.

[The Masked Prince]

Beastmasters do not really use crosbow or anything else, they would have to change that.
And I don't really see that class in range DPS,
we alwready got the squig herders, he would look pathetic compared to the beastmasters...
We need pure range DPS on the destruction side, like shades.

[Selendor]

I'd be ok with Beastmasters, Shades, or Corsairs. I already got my class. :-P But out of the 3 I think Shades are the most interesting.

[zoa]

Since when are hydras the only beasts that Beastmasters can have in the lore?

I guess you missed the "and such", I was merely using them as an example as one of their powerful beasts, but that's fine.


And there's quite a lot of options beyond a "cat named fluffy" for them to control, for example the old army book lists the following monsters one can include in their army:
War Hydra
Chimera
Cockatrice
Dark Pegasus
Dragon (various kinds)
Giant Scorpion
Gigantic Spider
Griffon
Hippogriff
Manticore
Wyvern
Swarms (various kinds, like lizards, bats or serpents)Right, and as a pet class in WAR can you picture any of those beasts doing equal or little more than squigs? All you've done is further reinforce my point that they could not do them any justice in an MMO. You being the person who stated that if they included Witch Elves as a support class you would try them, but if they didn't feel right you would leave. Now picture Beastmaster fans having their pets as Giant Scorpions who do the same damage as a Squig. Would you settle for that?

Again, you were the one who stated already that we are playing champions, so how can you really justify a champion Beastmaster having a pet that isn't a monstrously powerful creature that by itself could kill things, let alone with a Beastmaster controlling it.

Yes, this is speculation that their pet would do little more than a squig, but think about it from a game perspective, how powerful do you really think they can make their pet?


I'm not saying that they're a career, but that they seem more likely than Corsairs (as Shades seem more likely than Corsairs too). And I also feel that they're more likely than Shades unless Mythic really doesn't want to include another pet class.

For me, I don't mind any of the three. The only thing I really mind is if they make up a new class (like some kind of Blood Acolyte nonsense for healer, making Sorceress ranged). And I personally find Corsairs the least interesting choice they could pick; Shades and Beastmasters both are more interesting for various reasons (which I've talked about numerous times already).


Well in this I definitely agree with you, I don't really think Corsairs will make it into the game, I think it will be Shades, however I think Corsairs are more likely than Beastmasters based on the "Tidbits" which you argued so hard about when they were backing Witch Elves.

I also agree with you about making up a class for them, I really hope they don't, because that would completely ruin them for me.

[Kellaris]

l
As to what the Beast master would control? :confused: Nothing says they are limited to just WAR Hydras and Manticores......thats limiting for TT purposes only so they could use virtually any appropriate beast

And what is so cool about beastmaster if You will not include their beast??
I do not think we can call a scorpion or other squig-like creature a beast. A beas is hydra, manticore, dragon.
And beastmaster without beast is a crap.
Petmaster....

[Blaze]

You overplay the importance of Corsairs in Druchii society... they are the marines who serve on the black arcs and smaller vessels, and though yes they play an important part both militarily when attacking the High Elves, and economically from slave raiding .. theres no indication the entire economy or society of the Dark Elves is in any way based purely on there exploits .. its only one facet. There are stories in the Dark Elf hand book describing in land raids, and considering that Naggaroth is surrounded on three sides by land, its foolish to think they are a purely naval driven society. You also underplay the Shades to prove your opinion .. they arn't some hill tribe .. they are a hardened brotherhood of warriors whose duty is to protect the mountain passes of the west which lead to the frozen lands and chaos wastes .. there diligence keeps the empire from fighting a war on two fronts .. that doesn't exactly qualify them as mercenaries, but they are considered expert scouts and skirmishers which makes them every bit as valid on the field of war as the corsairs. As passionately as people argue for the Corsairs I almost hope you do get them .. but look at all sides .. as many people have said ..there arn't alot of differences between a Shade and a Corsair with a Crossbow .. but which is more true to the lore? Tabletop, Novel, or Other. Shades are intended to be a shooting unit .. Corsairs are intended for close combat. It just doesn't make sense to me to change them so fundamentally when theres already a unit that does the job available.
I admit I am no expert at dark elf lore. I got my impression mostly from the Darkblade books. There is also all the talk of how dark elf nobles are expected to spend time at sea raiding and bringing back plunder and how this is more or less required as a sort of coming of age test for young nobles and their retainers. There are constant referances to how the dark elf nobles drink Bretonnian wines and wear Tilean silk. There are slaves everywhere. All this is obtained from raids on other nations. So you'll see where I got my impression that this raiding of other nations is extremely important to them.

As for what they are intended for in the TT, like I said I don't see why this should prevent them from preforming in a ranged role in WAR. Mythic has shown with other classes (such as the engeneer) that they look at the original game more for inspiration than actual guidelines.

By contrast, the Shades are purest Dark Elves of them all, exemplifying strength and cunning, self-reliance, and independence. They don't need the Corsairs' slaves, because they haven't fallen prey to the effete decadence of the city-dwellers, they retain the traditions of the nomadic Nagarothi, maintaining their strength through wilderness living and constant skirmishing, guarding the rest of Dark Elf society from the Chaos Hordes who pour over the border, exposing weak children on the rocks, and maintaining their grasp on the homeland by any means necessary.

To me, the Shades exemplify the ethos of the Dark Elves - purity through strength, survival above all. None of this Slaaneshi nonsense - the Shades bow to Malekith or none at all.

I hadn't though of that actually. You portray them in a way that makes them seem a lot more interesting than I had previously though. If they manage to translate that mindset of strength and cunning, self-reliance, and independence into a class I would not mind seeing a Shade career.

I still maintain that Corsairs would make a kick class though. I just like what they stand for and their look.

Also...
and this is important...

If the Shadow Warriors are like elf ninjas... sort of
And the Corsair are totally like pirates... more or less

We could finally get an answer to the age old question. The question that is litterally as old as the internet.

Who would win in a fight, ninjas or pirates?

Is this not reason enough to have Corsairs!? :D

[Vikingkingq]

I hadn't though of that actually. You portray them in a way that makes them seem a lot more interesting than I had previously though. If they manage to translate that mindset of strength and cunning, self-reliance, and independence into a class I would not mind seeing a Shade career.

I still maintain that Corsairs would make a kick class though. I just like what they stand for and their look.

Also...
and this is important...

If the Shadow Warriors are like elf ninjas... sort of
And the Corsair are totally like pirates... more or less

We could finally get an answer to the age old question. The question that is litterally as old as the internet.

Who would win in a fight, ninjas or pirates?

Is this not reason enough to have Corsairs!? :D

Well, the way I always describe the Shades is this: imagine the Spartans used crossbows instead of spears and shields. They live up in the mountains, follow their clan chieftains up until the point that they're no longer the toughest Druchii around, and don't trust anyone who isn't them.

I would describe the contest between Shadow Warriors and Shades as Rangers v. Special Forces. Neither are really ninja's: they use bows, fight out in the wilderness, etc.

EDIT: How 'bout Robin Hood v. Evil William Tell?

[Blaze]

Well, the way I always describe the Shades is this: imagine the Spartans used crossbows instead of spears and shields. They live up in the mountains, follow their clan chieftains up until the point that they're no longer the toughest Druchii around, and don't trust anyone who isn't them.

I would describe the contest between Shadow Warriors and Shades as Rangers v. Special Forces. Neither are really ninja's: they use bows, fight out in the wilderness, etc.

EDIT: How 'bout Robin Hood v. Evil William Tell?

Robin Hood vs. Bishop from NWN2. No need for Evil William Tell if we mix genres a bit.

Bishop. Now thats a great character. The first time in a game I have seen a guy that is clearly Chaotic Evil but still not either a psyco or stupid. Just utterly selfish and for a good reason. He's a human but I would call him a honorary dark elf.

But back on topic. Where can I find good info on the Shades? The Army Book is one paragraph. And the Darkblade series features them briefly in the first book but thats all I can think of.

[Xurré]

lol, thats about what I said yesterday (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=446608&postcount=40) in this thread but noone seemed to care :p
Ah, must've missed that. Sorry. Though I do remember clicking on the links for the pictures. HMmmmm. :???:



Beastmasters do not really use crosbow or anything else, they would have to change that.
True. But if people can suggest adding one for Corsairs I can suggest adding one for Beastmasters. Though Black Razor is right that instead they could have a ranged beast for an interesting dynamic.

And I don't really see that class in range DPS,
we alwready got the squig herders, he would look pathetic compared to the beastmasters...
You mean, like how the Goblin Shaman doesn't look 'pathetic' compared to the high elf Archmage? Goblins look 'pathetic'. That's their thing: looking 'pathetic' and kicking your rear end regardless.

We need pure range DPS on the destruction side, like shades.
Destruction already has a pure ranged dps class; it's called the Chaos Magus. Now, if you say that both sides need a non-magical pure ranged class then that's something that can be looked at. Depends on where they put the pet class on the Order side.


Now picture Beastmaster fans having their pets as Giant Scorpions who do the same damage as a Squig. Would you settle for that?
First of, who says that they'd do the same damage as Squigs? As I understand it the Squig Herder is fairly strong on its own with Squigs to supplement the strength. I can see how Beastmasters would rely almost exclusively on the strength of their beast, not having much to contribute. And unlike the Squig Herder the Beastmaster would be constantly managing that single beast. See it as a unity of sorts.

Secondly, so what if they do the same damage? A level 40 Squig is going to be a challenge for just about any character. Classes need to be balanced against each other. And if people have a problem with them doing no more damage than a Squig then that's because the Squig is doing an absurd amount of damage for what a Squig is.

Again, you were the one who stated already that we are playing champions, so how can you really justify a champion Beastmaster having a pet that isn't a monstrously powerful creature that by itself could kill things, let alone with a Beastmaster controlling it.
Beastmasters need to start somewhere too. And for the record, a Beastmaster is already a hero in TT by default independent of what (if any) monsters you include with them. The War Hydra is controlled by two characters. So I don't really see it out of sorts to give the Beastmaster a weaker beast to control... right tool for the job and all that.

And as I said, I can very well see Beastmasters working themselves up to controlling 'ridiculously' powerful monsters at level 40 (where they'd be a proper challenge for the other level 40 characters).

Well in this I definitely agree with you, I don't really think Corsairs will make it into the game, I think it will be Shades, however I think Corsairs are more likely than Beastmasters based on the "Tidbits" which you argued so hard about when they were backing Witch Elves.
There is one 'tidbit' speaking in favor of Corsairs, and I consider that to be a weak one (despite the OPs enthusiasm of it damn near 'proving' tha they're in). There's also one tidbit for Beastmasters; in WAR's official background story (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/gameBackstory/partTwo.php) it lists three classes: Sorceresses, Witch Elves and Beastmasters:

The Witch King commands that every forge and furnace in the realm be brought to bear in the crafting of weapons, armor and siege machines. The Beastmasters of Karond Kar are ordered to select the strongest and most ferocious creatures in their pens and ready them for battle. The fierce Witch Elves of Khaine prepare for bloody sacrifice to the Lord of Murder. Morathi, the Hag Queen, summons forth the most powerful Sorceresses from the Convents and trains them to lead the armies of the Dark Elves. As his people prepare for the coming war, Malekith draws up his plans against the Dwarfs.
A second tidbit could be that, when asked whether Chaos Magus was a pet class, Mythic answered no, but that there are other pet classes in the game. The combination of plural here and the word 'other' might lead one to believe that there's more then one pet class other than the Squig Herder.


And what is so cool about beastmaster if You will not include their beast??
I do not think we can call a scorpion or other squig-like creature a beast. A beas is hydra, manticore, dragon.
And beastmaster without beast is a crap.
Petmaster....
That's your view on it. The dark elves seem to disagree with you in that they call anything they consider less than themselves (i.e. everything) a 'beast'. This includes slaves and giant scorpions and Cold Ones and Squigs even if they had any interest in those.

Personally I think the class could be a lot of fun by having an army of slaves. Who knows, if they give them Archmage, Warrior Priest and Runepriest slaves they might even make a good healer. ;)


But back on topic. Where can I find good info on the Shades? The Army Book is one paragraph. And the Darkblade series features them briefly in the first book but thats all I can think of.
The Darkblade novels have the most on them I think. The first book has a few chapters as I recall, since Malus has to do that task for them and all. And in one of the later books he travels with some for a bit to those mausoleums. And as I recall there's more of them later as he marches to war, since he uses them as scouts.

They do get less page time than Corsairs. But then again, Black Guards don't appear in the novels at all (and are hardly described in the rulebooks either... there's not much on them).

However, they do seem to be fairly new. In the fourth edition book they're just called 'Scouts' a there's no background at all on them. Of course, that might be the perfect reason for Mythic to include them.


- Xurré

[Blaze]

The Darkblade novels have the most on them I think. The first book has a few chapters as I recall, since Malus has to do that task for them and all. And in one of the later books he travels with some for a bit to those mausoleums. And as I recall there's more of them later as he marches to war, since he uses them as scouts.

They do get less page time than Corsairs. But then again, Black Guards don't appear in the novels at all (and are hardly described in the rulebooks either... there's not much on them).

However, they do seem to be fairly new. In the fourth edition book they're just called 'Scouts' a there's no background at all on them. Of course, that might be the perfect reason for Mythic to include them.


- Xurré

Okay, well nothing new for me then. Thanks anyway though.

This game will bring a lot of new fluff into the Warhammer setting. A lot of things will be fleshed out I gather. I think I'll be reading my tome of knowlege a lot :D

[Tiervexx]

This is what it boils down to anyway. Which is cooler. And that it entirely a matter of opinion.

I don't think Corsairs are anything like regual warriors with a special cloak. Thats essentially what they are on the tabletop, but for me the fluff is what matters.

When I think of Corsairs it reminds me of book two from the Malus Darkblade series. Malus's older brother, I forget his name. The one that spent all his time out pillaging and bringing home vast amounts of slaves and loot. He was in high standing with his house, a respected Corsair captain and great warrior. And his first mate... that female dark elf corsair with scars all over her. Those are corsairs.

I mean, they are raiders and slavers, the terror of the coasts of both the Old World and Ulthuan. They might not be much better than normal warriors on the TT, but they have soo much more flavor. More so than even the Shades, which I find a bit boring. Not even real druchii and too similar to Shadow Warriors in my mind.

Dark Elf society is entriely dependant on what they can steal from others and the labour they get from slaves. Without Corsairs that society would not work. They are one of the most important aspects of dark elf culture, if not the most important. Compare that to Shades, some hill tribes that sometimes work as mercenary scouts.

Corsairs embody they Druchii greed and selfishness that sustains them and keeps their culture alive. And thats why having them as a class would be right move IMO.

Ok, you sold me.

[Drift3r]

Since when are hydras the only beasts that Beastmasters can have in the lore?

Nowhere does it say that they only train hydras, quite the opposite as it says they train all kinds of beasts including slaves (and on the same page it specifically names steeds and Cold Ones as examples) and their special rule applies to all monsters, not just hydras.

And there's quite a lot of options beyond a "cat named fluffy" for them to control, for example the old army book lists the following monsters one can include in their army:

War Hydra
Chimera
Cockatrice
Dark Pegasus
Dragon (various kinds)
Giant Scorpion
Gigantic Spider
Griffon
Hippogriff
Manticore
Wyvern
Swarms (various kinds, like lizards, bats or serpents)
I can very easily see them have a Giant Scorpion as a beast, or perhaps they control slaves (that would be an interesting approach). Or they could perhaps get different beasts (already implemented for PvE for example) as they level where they could end at level 40 with a hydra perhaps. Or maybe they are the way in which Mythic is including Cold Ones (not as a mount, but as a beast of war).

To make them a bit more ranged they could be given a repeater crossbow (hey, if we can give one to Corsairs then we can give one to a Beastmaster) and they can already wear a Sea Dragon Cloak.

I'm not saying that they're a career, but that they seem more likely than Corsairs (as Shades seem more likely than Corsairs too). And I also feel that they're more likely than Shades unless Mythic really doesn't want to include another pet class.

For me, I don't mind any of the three. The only thing I really mind is if they make up a new class (like some kind of Blood Acolyte nonsense for healer, making Sorceress ranged). And I personally find Corsairs the least interesting choice they could pick; Shades and Beastmasters both are more interesting for various reasons (which I've talked about numerous times already).


- Xurré

Me thinks Dark Elf Army Book should change his name. Does he seriously think people won't question him because his forum name is "Dark Elf Army Book". lol

[Xurré]

Me thinks Dark Elf Army Book should change his name. Does he seriously think people won't question him because his forum name is "Dark Elf Army Book". lol
:roll:


- Xurré

[Selendor]

There is one 'tidbit' speaking in favor of Corsairs, and I consider that to be a weak one (despite the OPs enthusiasm of it damn near 'proving' tha they're in). There's also one tidbit for Beastmasters; in WAR's official background story it lists three classes: Sorceresses, Witch Elves and Beastmasters:

The Beastmasters of Karond Kar are ordered to select the strongest and most ferocious creatures in their pens and ready them for battle.


Their strongest and most ferocious spiders and cats, no doubt. :rolleyes:

[zoa]

First of, who says that they'd do the same damage as Squigs? As I understand it the Squig Herder is fairly strong on its own with Squigs to supplement the strength. I can see how Beastmasters would rely almost exclusively on the strength of their beast, not having much to contribute. And unlike the Squig Herder the Beastmaster would be constantly managing that single beast. See it as a unity of sorts.

Yes, this is speculation that their pet would do little more than a squig, but think about it from a game perspective, how powerful do you really think they can make their pet?

I guess you missed this part of my post, which specifically said it was speculation, and said why I would believe it to be that way. Again whatever, I guess you just didn't see it. As to what you said, I really don't see a class who just sits back and uses skills to control his beast the whole time as a great idea in an MMO. This is just my opinion though, maybe you would enjoy that type of class, but I definitely would not. In an MMO I would find it incredibly boring having a pet being so strong and the actual player being so weak. There needs to be a balance in an MMO and because of that I don't think they can do a Beastmaster any justice, unless of course they change things and stretch the class a bit, but wouldn't that upset all the Lore junkies who selectively use Lore as an argument? Again, this is just my opinion, I am not stating it as fact.


Secondly, so what if they do the same damage? A level 40 Squig is going to be a challenge for just about any character. Classes need to be balanced against each other. And if people have a problem with them doing no more damage than a Squig then that's because the Squig is doing an absurd amount of damage for what a Squig is.

Right, because a "level 40" Squig should be doing the same amount of damage as any "level 40" beast on that list you had... I don't think so. Are you saying that a Squig somehow scales more than these other beasts and made up the ground?

Also, you need to make up your mind, first you say a Beastmaster should heavily rely on his pet, then you try to justify a Squig doing the same amount of damage as a Beastmaster's pet. I'm lost, which one is it that you believe? Unless you think the Squig Herder should somehow be able to have the best of both worlds...


There is one 'tidbit' speaking in favor of Corsairs, and I consider that to be a weak one (despite the OPs enthusiasm of it damn near 'proving' tha they're in). There's also one tidbit for Beastmasters; in WAR's official background story (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/gameBackstory/partTwo.php) it lists three classes: Sorceresses, Witch Elves and Beastmasters:

My point was that a tidbit is purely speculation, and that you argued those Witch Elf tidbits vehemently and then turn around and claim the Corsair tidbit to be weak. All tidbits are primarily weak because they all are speculation, you claiming it weak doesn't mean it is weak, and someone claiming it is strong doesn't make it strong, they are just opinions that hold no sway whatsoever.


A second tidbit could be that, when asked whether Chaos Magus was a pet class, Mythic answered no, but that there are other pet classes in the game. The combination of plural here and the word 'other' might lead one to believe that there's more then one pet class other than the Squig Herder.

So what is the tidbit mean when they said High Elves would receive the pet class. You claim that because of the way it was worded it does not mean that they might not include another pet class on the Dark Elf side. However, once again it is just speculation just like any other tidbit and because of that it is no more or less valid than ANY of your Witch Elf tidbits.

[Sindal]

I keep hearing this recurring statement from the purists that Mythic is basing the game off the TT etc yet I've never seen or heard anything from Mythic themselves on the matter. If anything I would have to disagree and say that Mythic is clearly not basing the game stricly on the TT. Does anyone have a link or something to this statement? I'm not picking a fight or anything merely trying to educate myself, before anyone gets there panties in a twist

[Kaid]

I think it's just the matter of that's really all there is. I mean sure there's books but those are again based on the TT and the lore from it. And aside from that everything will have to go by GW first before it's put in the game anyway, which they will judge based on the TT and the lore behind it.

[mongoose]

I keep hearing this recurring statement from the purists that Mythic is basing the game off the TT etc yet I've never seen or heard anything from Mythic themselves on the matter. If anything I would have to disagree and say that Mythic is clearly not basing the game strictly on the TT. Does anyone have a link or something to this statement? I'm not picking a fight or anything merely trying to educate myself, before anyone gets there panties in a twist


No, Mythic is using all the GW resources as a reference and basis for making WAR (including GW themselves.)

If anything I would say that WAR is 40% TT, 25% lore, 20% other sources and about 15% made up or completely new to the Warhammer universe.

A prime example of this can be seen in the translation of the TT units to classes:

Choppa - not a strictly a TT unit but a mixture of "orcish" ideals
Black Orc - a TT unit
Squig Herder - not a TT unit but based on general lore
Shaman - a TT unit
Hammerer - a TT unit
Ironbreaker - a TT unit
Engineer - a TT unit
Runepriest - not a TT unit but based loosely off the Runesmith
Marauder - a T unit
Magus - not a TT unit but based loosely off a Sorcerer with a Tzeentch flavor
Zealot - not a TT unit but based loosely off the Cultists in lore
Chosen - a TT unit
Warrior Priest - a TT unit
Knight of the Blazing Sun - a TT unit (although the exact kind of Knight is all lore)
Bright Wizard - not strictly a TT unit but a specific type of Battle Wizard.
Witch Hunter - not a TT unit but has its origins in lore
Swordmaster - a TT unit (although how its classified is debatable)
Archmage - a TT unit
Witch Elf - a TT unit
Black Guard - a TT unit

so of the 20 classes so far, 6 are Mythic/GW/Lore constructs and not in the TT game or 30%.

[Sindal]

No, Mythic is using all the GW resources as a reference and basis for making WAR (including GW themselves.)

If anything I would say that WAR is 40% TT, 25% lore, 20% other sources and about 15% made up or completely new to the Warhammer universe.

A prime example of this can be seen in the translation of the TT units to classes:

Choppa - not a strictly a TT unit but a mixture of "orcish" ideals
Black Orc - a TT unit
Squig Herder - not a TT unit but based on general lore
Shaman - a TT unit
Hammerer - a TT unit
Ironbreaker - a TT unit
Engineer - a TT unit
Runepriest - not a TT unit but based loosely off the Runesmith
Marauder - a T unit
Magus - not a TT unit but based loosely off a Sorcerer with a Tzeentch flavor
Zealot - not a TT unit but based loosely off the Cultists in lore
Chosen - a TT unit
Warrior Priest - a TT unit
Knight of the Blazing Sun - a TT unit (although the exact kind of Knight is all lore)
Bright Wizard - not strictly a TT unit but a specific type of Battle Wizard.
Witch Hunter - not a TT unit but has its origins in lore
Swordmaster - a TT unit (although how its classified is debatable)
Archmage - a TT unit
Witch Elf - a TT unit
Black Guard - a TT unit

so of the 20 classes so far, 6 are Mythic/GW/Lore constructs and not in the TT game or 30%.


See this is exactly along the lines of how I feel about the matter. People keep saying that Mythic is basing the game on TT and thats just not true. Theres no way a TT would have enough interesting pieces to flesh them all out into balances and true archtype roles for every race.

[dutch_gamer]

Runepriest - not a TT unit but based loosely off the Runesmith

This is only partially true. There have actually been Runepriest miniatures in the past. The old Anvil of Doom had two Runepriests. But in the current version of the Anvil of Doom, they are Anvil Guards. So yes, it is loosely based on the Runesmith but the Runepriest itself existed in the TT.

[Vikingkingq]

No, Mythic is using all the GW resources as a reference and basis for making WAR (including GW themselves.)

If anything I would say that WAR is 40% TT, 25% lore, 20% other sources and about 15% made up or completely new to the Warhammer universe.

A prime example of this can be seen in the translation of the TT units to classes:

Choppa - not a strictly a TT unit but a mixture of "orcish" ideals
Black Orc - a TT unit
Squig Herder - not a TT unit but based on general lore
Shaman - a TT unit
Hammerer - a TT unit
Ironbreaker - a TT unit
Engineer - a TT unit
Runepriest - not a TT unit but based loosely off the Runesmith
Marauder - a T unit
Magus - not a TT unit but based loosely off a Sorcerer with a Tzeentch flavor
Zealot - not a TT unit but based loosely off the Cultists in lore
Chosen - a TT unit
Warrior Priest - a TT unit
Knight of the Blazing Sun - a TT unit (although the exact kind of Knight is all lore)
Bright Wizard - not strictly a TT unit but a specific type of Battle Wizard.
Witch Hunter - not a TT unit but has its origins in lore
Swordmaster - a TT unit (although how its classified is debatable)
Archmage - a TT unit
Witch Elf - a TT unit
Black Guard - a TT unit

so of the 20 classes so far, 6 are Mythic/GW/Lore constructs and not in the TT game or 30%.

Sguig Herder - based on Squig Hopper.
Witch Hunter - in Mordheim.
Bright Wizards are in TT, since your Empire Wizard can chose from the Lore of Fire, which is in the Army book. And there are specific Bright Wizard Empire Wizard models of the new plastic Empire Wizard.

[roadkizzle]

Unless mythic has released a statement within the last week or so, (which I doubt), they have actually stated the exact opposite of what Black Razor is emphasizing. Mythic says that they are looking at the background as a whole to determine classes. This includes Warhammer Roleplay, Novels, Mordheim, and yes, the TT game and it's rules.

[Sindal]

you are all merely proving his example, he sad based on etc. The fact that the classes were in some abstract TT years ago is not where they are pulling most of this, its from the other IP.

[Kellaris]

Unless mythic has released a statement within the last week or so, (which I doubt), they have actually stated the exact opposite of what Black Razor is emphasizing. Mythic says that they are looking at the background as a whole to determine classes. This includes Warhammer Roleplay, Novels, Mordheim, and yes, the TT game and it's rules.

And of course CCG ;).
Warcry CCG. It happens to use the same factions as WAR and has a lot good pictures and some storyline...

[Kaid]

Squig Herders- http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=302247&orignav=301036&ParentID=211838&GameNav=13


Magus- http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=302840&orignav=301030&ParentID=214401&GameNav=13

Magus is a renamed class and Squig Herders were given bows.

[mongoose]

This is only partially true. There have actually been Runepriest miniatures in the past. The old Anvil of Doom had two Runepriests. But in the current version of the Anvil of Doom, they are Anvil Guards. So yes, it is loosely based on the Runesmith but the Runepriest itself existed in the TT.

Im not seeing how an Anvil Guard has any more 'preistly' powers than an Runesmith but if you say so I believe you. This is where I default to a real Dwarf lore hound/player.


Sguig Herder - based on Squig Hopper.
Witch Hunter - in Mordheim.
Bright Wizards are in TT, since your Empire Wizard can chose from the Lore of Fire, which is in the Army book. And there are specific Bright Wizard Empire Wizard models of the new plastic Empire Wizard.

Witch Hunter - when I said lore I meant other source material ;)

Bright Wizard - I believe I covered that in my explanation and why it wasnt in red :rolleyes:

Squig Hopper - Is a squig rider which I dont believe the herder is. (see below)


Squig Herders (http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=302247&orignav=301036&ParentID=211838&GameNav=13)
Magus (http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=302840&orignav=301030&ParentID=214401&GameNav=13)
Magus is a renamed class and Squig Herders were given bows.

Well the Squig Herder is not an actual TT unit. You can only get them in "Herds" or groups of them (2 gobbs and 3 squig per unit). Having them be a solitary class is definitely WAR only. They are also not Night Goblins :D

As to the Magus........he is not just a renamed class because of the way Chaos (and specifically Tzeentch works) You cannot simply be a Sorcerer of Chaos and use Tzeentch lore. Only Champions of Chaos are allowed to take the mark of Tzeentch and with it thus gain Tzeentch lore plus the ability to ride a disc. Trust me they kind of tweaked a lot of lore to come up with the Magus.

[Rizal]

So in other words, if you have one unit that can sometimes equip a crossbow, and another unit that is a ranged skirmishing unit of scouts, somehow the former is the better choice?

Shades are the elite ranged unit of the Dark Elf Empire, and present a very different face of the Dark Elf people. Unlike most Dark Elves who live in cities, the Shades are a clannish folk who live in the forbidding wilderness of the Blackspine Mountains, guarding the passes against the Chaos Spawn and other dangers that seek to invade the Land of Chill from the West. Unlike the sybaritic city-dwellers, the Shades live a spartan life, totally focused on survival through strength and cunning.

As such, they are the premier scouts of the Dark Elf army, sent ahead to locate the enemy and their movements, and then infiltrate, harass, and disrupt High Elf forces, softening them for the main forces. They would be perfectly matched against the Shadow Warriors, who are their fiercest rivals and the forces that they fight the most often.

In fact, the parallel works really well. Both live in the wilderness, apart from their main societies, both are descended from the hill clans of Nagarythe (one clan went for Malekith, the other for Caledor), both cling to the traditional nomadic way of life. They serve as dark mirrors of each other, reminding the Shades what they could have been had they succumbed to weakness, reminding the Shadow Warriors of the horrible price of treason.


Im sorry but I think that idea sucks. I dont want any classes to "rival" each other in terms of fighting style like this. Its pretty much the same class, different side. I'd rather they go for something more unique and original. Like Paul said, elves are pretty easy to design if ya just wanna go by the standards, but then they become just as easy to screw up. Elves are always the "ranger" kind of people. I'd much rather see something far different.

Corsair>Shade.
Originality>Standard

However the helaer/hybrid may turn out to be something like a Blood Acolyte, then the ranged will definetely be the Sorceror in spite of all our bickering.

[Tae]

Well the Squig Herder is not an actual TT unit. You can only get them in "Herds" or groups of them (2 gobbs and 3 squig per unit). Having them be a solitary class is definitely WAR only. They are also not Night Goblins :D

Actually they are ;)

http://uk.games-workshop.com/orcsandgoblins/miniature-gallery/22/

[Joeydevil]

First of all no matter how much you like corsairs they are iconic for 3 reasons:

1. They wear Sea Dragon Cloaks
2. They are Pirates
3. THEY ACCEL IN CLOSE COMBAT

The idea of having a class that is known for being Melee masters being a primarily ranged damage class seems rediculous to me. In order for this class to fit in right it would need to be better in the ranged aspect than the melee aspect becasue that is what the Dark Elf army needs for a class. Making the Corsair a ranged specialist requires more than just handing him a repeater bow and sending him on his way. It involves bending lore a little too far. To make this class do enough damage in the ranged aspcect, you need to weaken it in the melee. That is what I am not cool with. A class cannot accel in both ranged and melee. It has to be better at one than the other or equal in both but not exceptional at both. Making a corsair not amazing in melee would involve lore breaking in the highest regard. Turning a Corsair into a Shade just to have Corsairs in the game is unneccesary when Shades are custom fitted for the role that the Dark Elf army needs to fill with its remaining classes. If your only reason to not do that is becasue they will be too much like shadow warriors, well I say thats good. It will be a symbol for the fact that they both used to be the same race. 1 or 2 classes that mirror each other is no big deal, especially if it's High Elves/Dark Elves. Now I will finish by saying I would rather have Corsairs than Shades but I don't think it makes sense.

[Damienx247]

Traps, nets, smoke bombs and such, is what people are speculating.

Hey, hey, don't forget the beer!

[Eltair Shadowblade]

it would totally suck having both shades and shadow warriors in the game
they said theyt wanted to go for a iconic look for each career.

you could see some1 far away, and go : OH ^&^& thats an shadow warrior!

if you have those 2 classes who look so much like eachother, it can be harder to seperate them from eachother.

you take away the silhouette effect.

i for one, hope they'll make a blood alcolyte healer, and then make the sorceress ranged.

Elves in W.A.R are the best mages, only beaten by the slann.

the High elf get a mage, who is a support class, which means that he wont be able to keep up with the bright wizard(at least, not if the game is balanced.)

having the sorcerer being a support too, would be a shame, everyone should see that Elfs are the second best magical beings in W.A.R!

anyon with me?

[Kellaris]

First of all no matter how much you like corsairs they are iconic for 3 reasons:

1. They wear Sea Dragon Cloaks
2. They are Pirates
3. THEY ACCEL IN CLOSE COMBAT


Just one edition before they were carrying RXB. They were very versatile unit, not only CC.
Also, WE are iconic becouse of how they look and becouse they are frenzied frontline assult specialist.
And look, here we have backstabbers.
With great possibility of some kind of ranged attack.

If there would be some kind of cloaking/stealth possible, I would vote for shade.
If there is no cloaking/stealth, Corsair has much more options.

[Joeydevil]

it would totally suck having both shades and shadow warriors in the game
they said theyt wanted to go for a iconic look for each career.
if you have those 2 classes who look so much like eachother, it can be harder to seperate them from eachother.

anyon with me?

Nope. They don't really look alike, they are just really similar classes. You would never mistake a Shade for a Shadow Warrior in appearance.

[Joeydevil]

I would rather they just made Shades look like Corsairs than to make a corsair accel in Ranged damage. Pirates(Corairs) accel in Melee. We don't need a class like that. The Elves need a Beastmaster or a Shade.

[Xurré]

Nope. They don't really look alike, they are just really similar classes. You would never mistake a Shade for a Shadow Warrior in appearance.
Just to reinforce that...

Shadow Warriors (http://uk.games-workshop.com/highelves/miniature-gallery/12/)
Shades (http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/miniature-gallery/12/)

They look quite different to me.


- Xurré

[Joeydevil]

Just to reinforce that...

Shadow Warriors (http://uk.games-workshop.com/highelves/miniature-gallery/12/)
Shades (http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/miniature-gallery/12/)

They look quite different to me.


- Xurré

Thank you Xurre.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

Touché, but my other point still stands.

that, and i still think they would play pretty similar.

feel free to learn me otherwise:p

[Joeydevil]

Touché, but my other point still stands.

that, and i still think they would play pretty similar.

feel free to learn me otherwise:p

LOL so what? That shows that they have roots in the same place. They could be the same in alot of ways. Kind of like how a tank is still a tank. They could change how the damage and gameplay works to make the classes different enough.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

LOL so what? That shows that they have roots in the same place.
.......so you are FOR 2 classes that play similar?:confused:

[Joeydevil]

.......so you are FOR 2 classes that play similar?:confused:

Well ALL tanks play SIMILAR. SIMILAR does not equal the SAME. I realize it is not a tank that is just an example. I don't see a problem with similar, no. They can both do the same job in two different ways and not play like each other, yes. If Shades were implemented I would play one.

EDIT: For the record I think it would make sense for the Elves to share similarities in certain classes. Take that to the bank.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

Well ALL tanks play SIMILAR. SIMILAR does not equal the SAME. I realize it is not a tank that is just an example. I don't see a problem with similar, no.
well, each tank still plays more distinctive then those 2 classes, i would think.

each tank has its own gimmick, hatred, brawlers, dark gifts.
i assume each tank will have a greatly different playstyle.

however, from what i learned about the lore, shades and shadow warriors are pretty similar.

both ranged(altho the one uses a longbow and the other a rep. crossbow)
guerilla like fighters.

but i'll let it rest, as it seems im the only one who thinks about it this way >.>

EDIT : i just read your posts better, and i see your point.

they could change the classes both ways, that they are pretty unique

[Vikingkingq]

Im sorry but I think that idea sucks. I dont want any classes to "rival" each other in terms of fighting style like this. Its pretty much the same class, different side. I'd rather they go for something more unique and original. Like Paul said, elves are pretty easy to design if ya just wanna go by the standards, but then they become just as easy to screw up. Elves are always the "ranger" kind of people. I'd much rather see something far different.

Corsair>Shade.
Originality>Standard

However the helaer/hybrid may turn out to be something like a Blood Acolyte, then the ranged will definetely be the Sorceror in spite of all our bickering.

Except Corsair != Ranged.
Shade = Ranged.

[PlagueLord]

you sir, are a genious!

*sarcasm off

and your definitely not a genius because you can't spell the word.

[CrossBre3d]

Mayb they will make a melee dps/range dps class lol..Where you can pick to go inside and fight or stay outside and do dmg..yea um doubt it.

[mongoose]

Actually they are ;)

http://uk.games-workshop.com/orcsandgoblins/miniature-gallery/22/

Tae, Tae, Tae....you are not reading the sentence correctly :rolleyes:

"Having them be a solitary class is definitely WAR only. They are also not Night Goblins"

In the first sentence the word "them' clearly refers to the WAR Squig herder. I then carried that inference over to the second sentence so the word "they" again refers to the WAR Squig Herder. So the second sentence would read........WAR Squig Herders are not Night Goblins. ;)