Witch Elves as Rogues - The Wrong Idea?

[Rerisen]

This had been discussed briefly elsewhere but here might be a better place. I'm not really getting the Witch Elf as a Rogue type class comparison. Do Dark Elf fans think this is a good description really?

I can see it perhaps only in the way in which the Witch Elf uses its attack (i.e. builds up combo points, uses openers, finishers, etc). Also, that she has lighter armor and hits hard can be seen to be roguish type traits. But those can also be fighter like traits if you look at things in a more traditional sense going back to pen and paper, single player RPG's or most importantly Warhammer Lore itself!

Nowhere in the lore do I remember Witch Elfs being described as 'cunning' or 'sneaky' or any of those other more deceptive roguish traits one might expect. Instead quite the opposite, the lore paints them as bloodthirsty, frenzied killers who are afraid of no one and are not looking to sneak around and stab anyone in the back but quite ready to take all comers head on and cut their head off while laughing and drinking the blood afterward. At Wiki and probaby elsewhere they are described as "Warrior-Priestesses".

To paint the Witch Elf as a Rogue Archtype which is kind of a cowardly slinking type play style, just seems off base to me. I think Melee DPS or even light infantry is more descriptive and fitting according to their role in the Dark Elf Army. I don't see Witch Elfs as less averse to mixing it up in combat than say a Choppa for instance, and no one calls them a Rogue class. The 'sneaky' or roguish units in the DE army to me are probably more like the Assassins and the Dark Riders, but not Witch Elves.

I don't know if the Rogue comparison was just a oversight tossed out by Paul, an attempt to grab in a certain aspect of the player base that would tend toward a 'Rogue' style class, or actually a true and real attempt by Mythic to bend this class in a new direction that is not present at all in the lore or army descriptions and make the Witch Elf more of a sneaky, needing to not fight fair kind of class. Which I think, if true, would kind of rob them of their ferocity and bad assness, if thats a word. :)

Anyway, curious what Dark Elf fans think. We probably won't really know how this class plays on a tactical level till we get a full list of her abilities, tactics, morale moves and what not.

[Thoden Firehammer]

By Rogueish class they ment and they even did say the Witch Elf is an opportunists class, which means they see a low healthed player, they go for the strike, they are DPS in it's purest form.

They can also enter and exit combat relativly easy which helps tehm become opportunists, by no means were they trying to relate this class to one of WoW's, they were just trying to relate it to the basic idea of a rogue, which is that of an opportunists class.

[Rerisen]

Perhaps Thoden. But under their key traits one is listed as 'positional attacks'. I certainly hope that playing a Witch Elf doesn't mean you have to always sneak up on someone or strike them in the back to have a chance to win a melee fight. Because these girls are supposed to be mean and not very subtle at all.

It just seemed odd to me how they played up the connection with the WoW rogue. Almost as if to say, "Hey kids... here's the class for you guys!"

I don't like that. Because a Witch Elf will not be based around Stealth and beside the use of combo points is not really going to play like that other class.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Perhaps Thoden. But under their key traits one is listed as 'positional attacks'. I certainly hope that playing a Witch Elf doesn't mean you have to always sneak up on someone or strike them in the back to have a chance to win a melee fight. Because these girls are supposed to be mean and not very subtle at all.

It just seemed odd to me how they played up the connection with the WoW rogue. Almost as if to say, "Hey kids... here's the class for you guys!"

I don't like that. Because a Witch Elf will not be based around Stealth and beside the use of combo points is not really going to play like that other class.


True you have a point, but again they did say it was the opportunists class, so I guess it will be a bit sneaky, even though they really arn't.

I truly wonder how soft Myhic is planning on making them, you'll see a smile on my face if they are in light armor, and not a medium armor bakini and thong. It will make combat for them alot interesting

[Deima]

When they said Rogue type class I think they meant an agility based melee fighter instead of a strength based fighter. Poisons, positional attacks, openers/finishers and combo points are also often associated to a Rogue class.

I don't know how (and if) they will add the "sneaky" component to the Witch Elf with the lack of stealth.

[Kellaris]

In general, melee DPS is supposed to be very mobile, attack flanks, find weak spots and attack them.
Considering IP, WE prefer frontal assaults, but they had to add some versatility to the class.
So, they mixed up assasin and WE, and choose WE skin, becouse it is more unique (assasin would look like typical fantasy dark sneaking elf).

[logicalmayhem]

i dont think anyone is realy sneaky in this game cunning is more the word ide say as you dodge the tank kill the healer in 5 secs than escape out of battle seems pretty bloodthirsty to me lol the fact you don't want to hit an ork fount on it more a smart thing than a scared thing,

the way they are using them they have poisons , elixirs for burst dmg and an ability which lets them escape from combat.

the fact they have some skills they can only use when someone docent hit them 1st is cool IMO

[dutch_gamer]

It just seemed odd to me how they played up the connection with the WoW rogue. Almost as if to say, "Hey kids... here's the class for you guys!"

Did they even mention the WoW Rogue themselves, or did they just use the word Rogue? If i am not mistaken it was the latter. Without mentioning WoW they can also refer to their own rogueish classes in DAoC.

[Rerisen]

Did they even mention the WoW Rogue themselves, or did they just use the word Rogue? If i am not mistaken it was the latter. Without mentioning WoW they can also refer to their own rogueish classes in DAoC.

I don't think Jeff said specifically WoW rogue, but the problem is that fans certainly got that impression in WAR forums and stated as such. He he did say this is our closest class to a rogue with only the 'good parts'. So I don't know what the bad parts are but I thought 'stealth' pretty quickly.

So maybe it is on the players fault for making that connection but it has to be obvious to the devs that when they say 'Rogue' that is going to be the foremost thought. With all apologies to DAoC fans, its numbers were a far cry from 9 million and WoW has launched a new mass of gamers that will think in WoW terms often. Also, did DAoC Rogues have combo points? If not, then the connection to the Warcraft Rogue is much stronger again.

Gamespot:
If you've ever played a rogue in World of Warcraft you have a pretty good idea of what a Witch Elf is.

[dutch_gamer]

DAoC may not have had combo points but they certainly have openers and finishers. Every single melee class had this in DAoC, unlike WoW.

I don't think Jeff said specifically WoW rogue, but the problem is that fans certainly got that impression in WAR forums and stated as such. He he did say this is our closest class to a rogue with only the 'good parts'. So I don't know what the bad parts are but I thought 'stealth' pretty quickly

And the bad parts don't have to refer to stealth alone. Also just because they have positional attacks, it doesn't have to mean they will play as an important role as they did in DAoC (a good first positional attack was key to win). Heck, isn't there another class with positional attacks? I think there is, but I can't remember which class it was, could be Witch Hunter or Choppa.

I just think you are taking their Rogue comment a bit too far. Mythic wanted to use a description people can relate to. This doesn't mean that they will have most of the characteristics. Rogue classes aren't always about a cowardly slinking type play style.

[flestiraef]

I've never liked melee dps classes, ever. Always a caster fan, more towards debuffing. But with the introduction of the witchelf, and things like that opener which hits more than once for average damage each time, instead of one big pretty number, and the jumpback thing.. I mean that's only 2 abilities, and unless DE gets the "Master debuffer" range dps or healer class, I'm definitely playing a WE. My fiance probably will as well. I think dualing WE's would fair very well as a combo :P

Oh and btw, I just traded my 70 druid for a 70 rogue on WoW, and maybe just because its new to me, but I'm having a blast with it right now until my beta key arrives. I don't think neccesarily comparing this class to the WoW rogue is in fact such a bad thing.

[Grimfell Gromgear]

And the bad parts don't have to refer to stealth alone. Also just because they have positional attacks, it doesn't have to mean they will play as an important role as they did in DAoC (a good first positional attack was key to win). Heck, isn't there another class with positional attacks? I think there is, but I can't remember which class it was, could be Witch Hunter or Choppa.

Witch Hunters have been listed with positionals. I don't think Choppa's have, but who's to say they won't get one? Still, so far it doesn't seem to be a 'key' component of their class.

Anyways, they can make any mechanic they want overpowered. For all we know positionals could be very unimportant, but what I'd prefer is instead of positionals...

Attacks with the tag 'You can only use this ability if your target enemy is targeting your ally and not you', instead of 'You are behind them' It still gives the incombat position like effect without being considered an 'opening move'

[Jeralin]

Witch Hunters have been listed with positionals. I don't think Choppa's have, but who's to say they won't get one? Still, so far it doesn't seem to be a 'key' component of their class.

Anyways, they can make any mechanic they want overpowered. For all we know positionals could be very unimportant, but what I'd prefer is instead of positionals...

Attacks with the tag 'You can only use this ability if your target enemy is targeting your ally and not you', instead of 'You are behind them' It still gives the incombat position like effect without being considered an 'opening move'

I'd be surprised if every melee class doesn't use positionals. Positional attacks do not always mean that it's a "backstab" attack. DAoC had Side and Front positionals, alot of back positional snares to prevent your target from fleeing as easily.

I can see all the tanks having really big damage side and back positionals to make you want to face them instead of ignoring them.

[Grimfell Gromgear]

I'd be surprised if every melee class doesn't use positionals. Positional attacks do not always mean that it's a "backstab" attack. DAoC had Side and Front positionals, alot of back positional snares to prevent your target from fleeing as easily.

I can see all the tanks having really big damage side and back positionals to make you want to face them instead of ignoring them.

I wouldn't be suprised to see the classes 'getting' positionals, but there's a difference between making them a key aspect of a class or a secondary one.

The fact that they put positionals right up there in the info for Witch Elves and Witch Hunters and not for Choppas,Hammerers, and Mauraders makes me think that they'll have less of them, or less important ones.

[Jeralin]

Either way, by "rogue" he probably meant that they're closer to being Nightshades/Infiltrators/Shadowblades (DAoC's rogues), because they wear lighter armour, use poisons, and have high damage positional attacks.

[Freax]

Horrible idea IMO. Ive been looking forward to the assassin/thief type class for Chaos for a long time, and then i find out its gonna be ALL-FEMALE.... makes no sense.

[Zihark]

Actually, what he said is "witch elf will probably be the closest thing to a rogue you will find in our game" or something within thsoe lines, meaning they posses some rogueish threads. Like use of positional attacks, dual wielding, pure dps class, poison, agility before brute strengh, low armour. Not that they are sneaky backstabbers

[Fr0]

This is how a WE should be played. Simply imagine a bloodthirsty rogue with no stealth, diving headfirst into a fight even if outnumbered I love it! Definitely accurate.

[Rerisen]

Actually, what he said is "witch elf will probably be the closest thing to a rogue you will find in our game" or something within thsoe lines, meaning they posses some rogueish threads. Like use of positional attacks, dual wielding, pure dps class, poison, agility before brute strengh, low armour. Not that they are sneaky backstabbers

True. What I was getting at (and perhaps the title is too vague) is that people were wrongly getting the *idea* that the class is overly rogue-like. I was seeing far too many comments at every WAR site saying stuff like, "Yeah this class looks its going to be the (wow) rogue of Warhammer." Thus people getting the 'wrong idea'. They might share some similarities but as a direct comparison I think its widely off.

Since we do not know hardly any class specifics of the Witch Elf, I did hold out some concern that they actually would be bending her more in the rogue direction than what the lore indicated (by being sneaky, or subtle). Because sticking strictly to their history I think Witch Elves have every bit as much in common with a warrior or fighter as they do as with a rogue. Not all fighting classes are tanks which is a misnomer that people often make. In Tabletop Witch Elves were not even considered skirmishing units! They were straight up formation fighters that ran into people head on and attacked them.

[Drunkenmaster]

Horrible idea IMO. Ive been looking forward to the assassin/thief type class for Chaos for a long time, and then i find out its gonna be ALL-FEMALE.... makes no sense.

Um, it makes perfect sense, as it is drawn from the lore. It's not something Mythic made up to justify their other male only classes. There are no male brides of Khaine :rolleyes:

[Axxar]

Horrible idea IMO. Ive been looking forward to the assassin/thief type class for Chaos for a long time, and then i find out its gonna be ALL-FEMALE.... makes no sense.Witch elves aren't assassins/thieves, they are frenzied and blood-thirsty warriors.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Witch elves aren't assassins/thieves, they are frenzied and blood-thirsty warriors.

Quoted for truth

[Drunkenmaster]

Indeed, but the use of the terms, combo points, finishers etc that was used makes the general public draw similarities and conclusions from their previous experiences, which is sadly most of the time WoW hence you end up with the witch elf = rogue threads.

[Diabolix]

On gamespot they say

Like WOW's rogues, witch elves will be able to coat their daggers or swords with various poisons. They won't have to concern themselves with carrying around a load of ingredients to make the poisons with, though, because poisons are ability- rather than inventory-based.That's what they mean by being similar to WOW's rogues.

Also thats pretty cool you don't need to have the reagents for Poisons, much like guildwars :P

Um, it makes perfect sense, as it is drawn from the lore. It's not something Mythic made up to justify their other male only classes. There are no male brides of Khaine :rolleyes:

Haha :P I want to see what a "Groom of Khaine" might look like(if there was such thing), omg the dawn of CHAINMAL SPEEDOS AND SANDLES :P

[Boulvae]

Witch Elves are cunning, bloody thirsty, and frenzied they are the brides to the god of MURDER. The only possible thing a witch elf could be is melee DPS, and they have to consider the average person who doesn't actually play the table top or is new to the lore in general.

[Drunkenmaster]

On gamespot they say
Haha :P I want to see what a "Groom of Khaine" might look like(if there was such thing), omg the dawn of CHAINMAL SPEEDOS AND SANDLES :P



hahaha. Made me think of this
http://www.secretlivesofmobs.com/index.php?strip_id=20
:lol:

[WarMachine]

Perhaps Thoden. But under their key traits one is listed as 'positional attacks'. I certainly hope that playing a Witch Elf doesn't mean you have to always sneak up on someone or strike them in the back to have a chance to win a melee fight. Because these girls are supposed to be mean and not very subtle at all.

It just seemed odd to me how they played up the connection with the WoW rogue. Almost as if to say, "Hey kids... here's the class for you guys!"

I don't like that. Because a Witch Elf will not be based around Stealth and beside the use of combo points is not really going to play like that other class.

Now your just making things up, they never said "Combo points". The WE builds frenzy as she attacks. She can use her abilities at any time, frenzy causes her abilities to do more damage so building frenzy is key to her DPS. Her Frenzy is simular to a DG's Hate, a SM's balance, and nothing simular to WoW's "Combo Points" So it will play simular to other elf classes in that respect.

Here is the example of the WE's combat abitilites, and it explains Frenzy if you haven't seen it. http://war.curse.com/videos/details/635/ EDIT: The WE is explained half way through the video.

Even a WE has to an oppertunist. Lorewise, I don't think a single non champion WE would be able to defeat a single swordsmaster, their just not equiped to do it in a front on battle. The WE would move on a SM before he/she would have time to react and get some devistating blows in first, then with her opponet weakened, she'd move in for the kill.

[abr4]

http://war.curse.com/videos/details/635/

OMG I'm so sad after watching that video.

If THAT'S how they wanted Witch Elves to be they should have put in Assassins instead of Witch Elves, because it is an Assassin that is shown.

It's a WoW Rogue without stealth, they even have combo points, though they disguised it as "frenzy points". Witch Elves don't sneak up to an enemy and they most certainly don't retreat - ever.

[WarMachine]

OMG I'm so sad after watching that video.

If THAT'S how they wanted Witch Elves to be they should have put in Assassins instead of Witch Elves, because it is an Assassin that is shown.

It's a WoW Rogue without stealth, they even have combo points, though they disguised it as "frenzy points". Witch Elves don't sneak up to an enemy and they most certainly don't retreat - ever.

Ok.... I thought I just went over this. Now lets step off the OMGWTFWOWROGUES!!! Their is NO point system, there is a frenzy system AND IT IS NOT LIKE WoW'S COMBO SYSTEM. If you wanna get technical, and say "Well IMO, they took WoW's Combo system". Well, this system has been in many other games, and many before WoW, I even think some said it was even in DAoC, then that would mean that Bliz stole it from mythic in the first place.

Their rogueish, thats where the simularies end. The whole "It's a WoW Rogue without stealth" Was the dumbest statment I've seen said about them. Oh, thats right, they carry two bigs knives, that must mean their the same, hu? They have nothing else in common. I guess you could say a Choppa was a WoW rouge without stealth, they dual weild, and use the frenzy system (but its called moral for them). They kept the WE true to form, that is a WE in very sence of it, oppertunist, blood thirst phycopaths.

[havik110]

the issue is that by the time the witch elves are in combat they have already taken their poisonous blood (drugs) and are already frenzied. They run into combat not caring if they die. They dont sneak, they run in screaming, and they win because everyone (even other dark elves) are terrified of them.

they can get away with a lack of armor because they can dodge (fantasy has different rules but the wyches in 40k dodge on a 4+ invuln roll) They have high weapon skill so they can hit you more then you can hit them although they dont have the S to take out really tough opponents they do have poisonous blades and in 40k they have the agonizer which wounds on a 4+ regardless of toughness.

Im not a fan of the description right now. I want crazy screaming brides of Khaine, not sneaky girls trying to backstab.

[Gaazruk]

the issue is that by the time the witch elves are in combat they have already taken their poisonous blood (drugs) and are already frenzied. They run into combat not caring if they die. They dont sneak, they run in screaming, and they win because everyone (even other dark elves) are terrified of them.
NPCs find them scary, since your fighting players I doubt they will have the scare tactics to help them, personally Im not scared of some elf in a bikini charging at me screaming, just knock her out. :) Quiet Time for Witch Elfs.... :)

[havik110]

NPCs find them scary, since your fighting players I doubt they will have the scare tactics to help them, personally Im not scared of some elf in a bikini charging at me screaming, just knock her out. :) Quiet Time for Witch Elfs.... :)

make a screaming attack, that slows down the attacks of the target. maybe a fear snare...

[Gaazruk]

make a screaming attack, that slows down the attacks of the target. maybe a fear snare...
If someone runs up to me and yells at my face I dont slow down... I just think they need mental help....

[WarMachine]

Im not a fan of the description right now. I want crazy screaming brides of Khaine, not sneaky girls trying to backstab.

In groups they can fearlessly charge into battle, whereas, loners have to be oppertunist. Nothing says they have to sneak, and from what I hear, they don't have a backstab, and speculation beleives they may have positional attacks.

In one on one, the WE will lose to alot of other classes, that would be the same in TT. You have to now remmeber that you are not in control of a TT army, but only one individual in that army. Without a group, the WE will have to pick and choose her targets, less die without paying tribute to her god.

make a screaming attack, that slows down the attacks of the target. maybe a fear snare...

She's a Witch Elf, not a Banshee.

[havik110]

In groups they can fearlessly charge into battle, whereas, loners have to be oppertunist. Nothing says they have to sneak, and from what I hear, they don't have a backstab, and speculation beleives they may have positional attacks.

In one on one, the WE will lose to alot of other classes, that would be the same in TT. You have to now remmeber that you are not in control of a TT army, but only one individual in that army. Without a group, the WE will have to pick and choose her targets, less die without paying tribute to her god.



She's a Witch Elf, not a Banshee.

meh banshees just get first attack. Im saying these girls scare everyone, give them an aura that slows people down just because they are scary :mrgreen: but i agree 1 on 1 they may be opportunists but in rvr maybe they get a bonus

[abr4]

Nothing says they have to sneak, and from what I hear, they don't have a backstab, and speculation beleives they may have positional attacks.

In the video you posted there is clearly a move shown that has to performed from behind and while unengaged. How do you do that? You have to surprise you enemy and, to do so, approach unnoticed. Last time I remembered that's what's called sneaking.

Ok.... I thought I just went over this. Now lets step off the OMGWTFWOWROGUES!!! Their is NO point system, there is a frenzy system AND IT IS NOT LIKE WoW'S COMBO SYSTEM. If you wanna get technical, and say "Well IMO, they took WoW's Combo system". Well, this system has been in many other games, and many before WoW, I even think some said it was even in DAoC, then that would mean that Bliz stole it from mythic in the first place.

Their rogueish, thats where the simularies end. The whole "It's a WoW Rogue without stealth" Was the dumbest statment I've seen said about them. Oh, thats right, they carry two bigs knives, that must mean their the same, hu? They have nothing else in common. I guess you could say a Choppa was a WoW rouge without stealth, they dual weild, and use the frenzy system (but its called moral for them). They kept the WE true to form, that is a WE in very sence of it, oppertunist, blood thirst phycopaths.

Well done addressing just one point in my argument :rolleyes:

In that video you can also see a backstabbing type of attack, that can only be performed while unengaged, as well as a move to get them out of combat quickly, something a Witch Elf would never do (*). In fact their frenzy prevents them from fleeing in the table top. There's nothing wrong with a player choosing to run away because he doesn't want to die, even when he's playing a witch elf (although they should give them abilities that increase their damage when low on health imo, to encourage staying at the front until they die), but to implement a move to get out of quickly shows clearly, that Mythic didn't fully grasp the concept of witch elves.

If they really wanted to implemented the mechanics they've shown they should have made the melee dps class not a witch elf, but an assassin period.

(*) The backstab move isn't very fitting either in my opinion, because witch elves don't care about positionals, they rush straight into battle instead of a sneaky move like an attack from behind they should have a charge type of ability.

[Thoden Firehammer]

abr4 You said Mythic didn't grasp the concept of Witch Elf, sorry this is your opinion, and personaly this interpritation makes sense, them being the opportunits on the battle field.
I mean how do you expect scantaly clad ladies to survive on the battle field?

As soon as they build the their frenzy then they become the whrling blades of doom that they are.

[abr4]

abr4 You said Mythic didn't grasp the concept of Witch Elf, sorry this is your opinion, and personaly this interpritation makes sense, them being the opportunits on the battle field.
I mean how do you expect scantaly clad ladies to survive on the battle field?

As soon as they build the their frenzy then they become the whrling blades of doom that they are.

Have you looked into Warhammer, especially Dark Elf, lore before Warhammer Online? The way what we've seen so far about gameplay as a Witch Elf isn't very true to what they are in the table top as they, as I already said, don't care about positionals in the table top and never retreat.

So this is not only my opinion, but I have facts to back it up.

[Xurré]

make a screaming attack, that slows down the attacks of the target. maybe a fear snare...
How about this:

Cry of War

By Screeching one of the seventeen secret names of Khaine, the warrior freezes enemies with horror.
Skill Witch Elves can get in TT.


- Xurré

[Thoden Firehammer]

Have you looked into Warhammer, especially Dark Elf, lore before Warhammer Online? The way what we've seen so far about gameplay as a Witch Elf isn't very true to what they are in the table top as they, as I already said, don't care about positionals in the table top and never retreat.

So this is not only my opinion, but I have facts to back it up.


... sigh here we go.

Yes I know my lore, and I know they are supposedly frenzied killers, however they are wearing nothing! This means that they would be hard to put in as fenzied killes, they'd die really really fast, so they had to set them, as a mater of fact they were forced to set this class like this.

Now the reason it makes sense to me is, battles are chaotic, and if a Witch Elf doesn't fight to her advantage than she's not going to live very long

Now, you can't use the TT as a reference, due to the fact that it had to sacrifice lore as well to ft thet type of game format.

[abr4]

I know they are supposedly frenzied killers, however they are wearing nothing! This means that they would be hard to put in as fenzied killes, they'd die really really fast

How about making them so agile that they rarely get hit? If one wanted to it could be made working.

Now, you can't use the TT as a reference, due to the fact that it had to sacrifice lore as well to ft thet type of game format.

Yeah, let's just throw the whole table top thing over board. In fact, let's throw chaos out and implement the unstoppable menace of the kingdom of pink duracel bunnies, because they just keep going and going and going... :rolleyes:

I still stand by it, from what is available to see so far it doesn't show that Mythic really got the point of Witch Elves.

[Selendor]

Witch Elves can afford to rush into battle in the TT, seeing as there's an entire unit of them. They tend to take heavy losses from ranged attacks before they get to their targets, so I'd imagine if there's only one Witch Elf they have to be a bit more tactical, seeing as I can't see them surviving very long if they try to "duke it out" with a Hammerer or a Knight.

[Thoden Firehammer]

How about making them so agile that they rarely get hit? If one wanted to it could be made working.
This would be very annoying, I mean would you want to fight one of these and keep on seeing things like dodge parry dodge dodge dodge parry dodge dodge parry, hit dodge dodge dodge dodge?


Yeah, let's just throw the whole table top thing over board. In fact, let's throw chaos out and implement the unstoppable menace of the kingdom of pink duracel bunnies, because they just keep going and going and going... :rolleyes:

I still stand by it, from what is available to see so far it doesn't show that Mythic really got the point of Witch Elves.

Are you a moran? I meerly said that for the TT they had to bend the lore as well for the sake of balance and then you type all of this crap?
"In fact, let's throw chaos out and implement the unstoppable menace of the kingdom of pink duracel bunnies, because they just keep going and going and going..."

Yeah, you're almost too the point that this isn't even a disscusion.

This is what you're attempting to do
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NcRigZPsJI

[abr4]

lol if you say so.

When one has to bent the lore that much to make it fit shouldn't you question yourself if that class was really such a good choice? You can't deny that mechanics like opportunistic attacks and a quick retreat move in fact fits an assassin class much more than a bloodcrazed maniac who is so drugged up that she isn't even able to think clearly anymore, now can you? And if you can, I can post that neat little youtube video right back at you.

A charge would have been way more fitting than a retreat move such as it was shown and positional and opportunistic attacks don't make much sense either from a lore point of view.
I can understand them being in to spice the class up, but isn't it a bit of uncreative design when you have to fall back to moves that aren't actually very suitable for a class like the Witch Elf?

Now I wrote all this and forgot the part about the agility for damage mitigation.

Dodging doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing, you can have something like barely dodged where you have a chance to only receive 75%, 50%, 25% or a full dodge and 0% damage received. Ideally the chance to receive 50% or 75% damage is the highest with no dodge at all or a full dodge being the exception; agility based damage mitgation and if implemented right hardly frustrating.

[Thoden Firehammer]

It wasn't my choice that they implimented Witch Elves... if it was yall would actualy have Executioners...

[abr4]

I didn't mind so far. What I do mind is the way they implemented them.

[Kellaris]

... sigh here we go.

Yes I know my lore, and I know they are supposedly frenzied killers, however they are wearing nothing! This means that they would be hard to put in as fenzied killes, they'd die really really fast, so they had to set them, as a mater of fact they were forced to set this class like this.


Or, they could call the class Assasin. This would keep to the lore, wouldn't be gender specyfic.
But, Assasin is not sexy enough.:(

[Thoden Firehammer]

, Assasin is not sexy enough.:(


And this is why I didn't want Witch Elves in the game...

[abr4]

Yeah Xurré, thanks for ruining the game for us!

[Xurré]

Yeah Xurré, thanks for ruining the game for us!
:roll:


- Xurré

[abr4]

:P


89ol58iueth

[WarMachine]

In the video you posted there is clearly a move shown that has to performed from behind and while unengaged. How do you do that? You have to surprise you enemy and, to do so, approach unnoticed. Last time I remembered that's what's called sneaking.



Well done addressing just one point in my argument :rolleyes:

In that video you can also see a backstabbing type of attack, that can only be performed while unengaged, as well as a move to get them out of combat quickly, something a Witch Elf would never do (*). In fact their frenzy prevents them from fleeing in the table top. There's nothing wrong with a player choosing to run away because he doesn't want to die, even when he's playing a witch elf (although they should give them abilities that increase their damage when low on health imo, to encourage staying at the front until they die), but to implement a move to get out of quickly shows clearly, that Mythic didn't fully grasp the concept of witch elves.

If they really wanted to implemented the mechanics they've shown they should have made the melee dps class not a witch elf, but an assassin period.

(*) The backstab move isn't very fitting either in my opinion, because witch elves don't care about positionals, they rush straight into battle instead of a sneaky move like an attack from behind they should have a charge type of ability.

Watch the video again. It was refered to as an "Opener" not a positional, a move that can be only done as the first attack. He had to attack from behind, as the mob was moving away fom her. Their was never any comment that the attack was a backstab. Your assmuning that it was a backstab from the way the attack was presented, but I'm sure it can be done from any angle. And in the TT, I don't know if its applicable to the WE, but the lone surviors must make moral cheks or flee from battle (this is after a unit has destroyed another) a lot will not transfer to the mmo, but still a lone soldier, will try and servive. You will not feild a lone WE, and expect her to work as an entire unit.

That is the problem people are having with the builds in this game, their viewing unit stats, not lone trooper stats.

[Drunkenmaster]

Or, they could call the class Assasin. This would keep to the lore, wouldn't be gender specyfic.
But, Assasin is not sexy enough.:(

Um, dark elf assassins are males who survived the temple sacrifce as children.
So I'm afraid dark elf assasins would be gender restricted aswell.

[wis]

They should just have made Corsair the melee dps for the Dark Elves... :( Then it wouldn't have been gender restricted.

[Kellaris]

Um, dark elf assassins are males who survived the temple sacrifce as children.
So I'm afraid dark elf assasins would be gender restricted aswell.

Very soft restriction IMHO.
There is said tad male children ............. who survive .......... becomes assasins.
No proof that they are ONLY assasins.
Sure, this ones are the best of the best of the best.
But I'm also quite sure that Temple of Khaine is not only organisation in DE society that trains assasins.

And Corsair fits as well.

[abr4]

Watch the video again. It was refered to as an "Opener" not a positional, a move that can be only done as the first attack. He had to attack from behind, as the mob was moving away fom her. Their was never any comment that the attack was a backstab. Your assmuning that it was a backstab from the way the attack was presented, but I'm sure it can be done from any angle. And in the TT, I don't know if its applicable to the WE, but the lone surviors must make moral cheks or flee from battle (this is after a unit has destroyed another) a lot will not transfer to the mmo, but still a lone soldier, will try and servive. You will not feild a lone WE, and expect her to work as an entire unit.

That is the problem people are having with the builds in this game, their viewing unit stats, not lone trooper stats.

Touche.

In my defense though, the dev (?) presenting the video did use the words backstab and sneak in regards to the Witch Elf :P

But the whole issue is entirely independent from the actual attack used, because it was shown in the class description on the gc that Witch Elves will use positionals, which I still don't see fitting from a lore point of view, as discussed with Thoden.
And of course there's also the thing with the retreat move which a Witch Elf shouldn't have at all, imo.

[Kellaris]

Watch the video again. It was refered to as an "Opener" not a positional, a move that can be only done as the first attack. He had to attack from behind, as the mob was moving away fom her. Their was never any comment that the attack was a backstab. Your assmuning that it was a backstab from the way the attack was presented, but I'm sure it can be done from any angle.

All DPS classes are supposed to use positional attacks. This conclusion comes from fansite day presentation.
So far, all DPS classes have positional attacks. Even hammerer.
What makes You think that WE will not have it?

[Thoden Firehammer]

Agreed, even Hammerer and Witch Hunters have positional attacks, although admitedly the Witch hunters are more postional base thab the hammerers

[WarMachine]

All DPS classes are supposed to use positional attacks. This conclusion comes from fansite day presentation.
So far, all DPS classes have positional attacks. Even hammerer.
What makes You think that WE will not have it?

I never said they wouldn't. I was dicussing the video, and the assumtion that the attack was a Backstab attack. I mean, a Chosen "could" backstab, but the likelyhood of that happening no any opponet that wasn't blind beaf and dumb would ne non exsistant. As far as I know, all DPS classes may eventually get a backstab move, that doesn't mean its going to be a WoW rouge style backstab.

And to even getinto "BackStab", we souldn't even say the WAR would rip off the move, because we all know that most of the move in mmos come from D&D.

So in that respect, any class "could have a Backstab, that doesn't mean that its a roge only style attack, as it should just be considered a light armored, fast attack, style of attack.

[abr4]

Even if it isn't; so far the Witch Elf looks way closer to an Assassin than a Witch Elf from the table top, game mechanics wise :- /

[Kellaris]

Even if it isn't; so far the Witch Elf looks way closer to an Assassin than a Witch Elf from the table top, game mechanics wise :- /

Indeed....

[Thoden Firehammer]

Even if it isn't; so far the Witch Elf looks way closer to an Assassin than a Witch Elf from the table top, game mechanics wise :- /

I also agree sadly.

[Rerisen]

abr4 You said Mythic didn't grasp the concept of Witch Elf, sorry this is your opinion, and personaly this interpritation makes sense, them being the opportunits on the battle field.
I mean how do you expect scantaly clad ladies to survive on the battle field?


Come on that's just the old 'reality' fallback position and it's not a very good one. How would 50 players hitting a Bloodthirster's hardened hoof ever kill one? Well its going to happen in Warhammer online.

I hate argument's like this that try to give the devs an excuse or lore 'out'. You can agree or not agree with how they have implemented Witch Elves, but to pretend their exact interpretation was the only one, or only way they could have gone to make sense is silly in a fantasy mmo.

Even if it isn't; so far the Witch Elf looks way closer to an Assassin than a Witch Elf from the table top, game mechanics wise :- /

As to why Witch Elves where chosen over Assassin if they really wanted the class to play more Roguish? Well I can guess at one related factor. That being the fact that Destruction already had so many Male only classes, which is a fault of their own doing when they had reference to be more inclusive. And of course the Assassins are male only I believe, oops. This is what happens when you don't think about your class choices and restrictions ahead of time.

[WarMachine]

Even if it isn't; so far the Witch Elf looks way closer to an Assassin than a Witch Elf from the table top, game mechanics wise :- /

No, they look just like WEs.... assassins would have more cloths on. I sure they didn't use assassins because the would be compared WAY to much to WoW's rouge. They needed a powerful DPS class, and one that had to be able to female, as they already nixed two classes abilities to be female.... that really only left the WE. Now they had to balance and yet make it different than all other DPS classes. WAR already has two front on DPS, lets give destruction something differnt. It could be worse, I mean so far we only have like one topic comparing them to WoW's Rogues, could you imagine the fall out if they DID do the assassin?

[Rerisen]

It could be worse, I mean so far we only have like one topic comparing them to WoW's Rogues, could you imagine the fall out if they DID do the assassin?

The reason for the thread is that the Witch Elf should *not* be like a Rogue, worst of all a WoW Rogue. If the Assassin was in it would be entirely appropriate to compare it to a wow Rogue or any other Rogue because it would be a 100% Rogue Arch-type. Both in practice and in lore.

If they had let Marauder and Chosen be Female then they could have made the Dark Elf Assassin and give him all the sneaky, backstabbing, opportunistic stuff you could dream in a Rogue class, and also make him male only, since Females would already be open to enough Destruction classes.

If they bastardize the Witch Elf into a Assassin/Fighter hybrid now, that kind of kills the chance down the line that the real DE Assassin would ever have a place in the game in a expansion. Since a lot of the stuff you would like to give him both in play-style and abiliteis would already be co-opted by the Witch Elf. And if they are just saving the assassin motif for the Skaven, then that is a equally compelling reason to just let the Witch Elf be what she has traditionally been and no more than that.

[WarMachine]

The reason for the thread is that the Witch Elf should *not* be like a Rogue, worst of all a WoW Rogue. If the Assassin was in it would be entirely appropriate to compare it to a wow Rogue or any other Rogue because it would be a 100% Rogue Arch-type. Both in practice and in lore.

If they had let Marauder and Chosen be Female then they could have made the Dark Elf Assassin and give him all the sneaky, backstabbing, opportunistic stuff you could dream in a Rogue class, and also make him male only, since Females would already be open to enough Destruction classes.

If they bastardize the Witch Elf into a Assassin/Fighter hybrid now, that kind of kills the chance down the line that the real Assassin would ever have a place in the game in a expansion. Since a lot of the stuff you would like to give him both in play-style and abiliteis would already be co-opted by the Witch Elf.

Well, pretty much every comparasion to the WoW rogue has aready been proven wrong, exept that they use knives. I don't really know what else you can say to compare them... The Dev made a comment about being sneaky, that doesn't mean rogue stealth, any class can be sneaky in a game, the WE as much as we have been told, doesn't come with any type of hide. He just gave an example that a WE would need to be sneaky http://encarta.msn.com/thesaurus_/sneaky.html to be the most effective, and as the link would show, a WE would be all that.

[Rerisen]

Well, pretty much every comparasion to the WoW rogue has been proven wrong.

I wouldn't say that. Leaping out of combat, positional attacks, etc. But even so, if that were the case wouldn't you agree that it is pretty stupid for the devs to keep comparing them to Rogues, WoW or otherwise? Not to mention sites like Gamespot saying if you played a WoW Rogue you will know what a Witch Elf is. And that leads to people stating on WAR forums such as this and others that she 'looks just like a wow Rogue' is the 'answer' to WoW's Rogue and on and on.

When it reality she is far more like the Witch Hunter or even Choppa than she is a Rogue. It's a melee DPS class. Which confirms the whole point of the thread. Witch Elves as Rogues (Rightly or Wrongly conceived doesn't matter) is the wrong idea!

[WarMachine]

I wouldn't say that. Leaping out of combat, positional attacks, etc. But even so, if that were the case wouldn't you agree that it is pretty stupid for the devs to keep comparing them to Rogues, WoW or otherwise? Not to mention sites like Gamespot saying if you played a WoW Rogue you will know what a Witch Elf is. And that leads to people stating on WAR forums such as this and others that she 'looks just like a wow Rogue' is the 'answer' to WoW's Rogue and on and on.

When it reality she is far more like the Witch Hunter or even Choppa than she is a Rogue. It's a melee DPS class. Which confirms the whole point of the thread. Witch Elves as Rogues (Rightly or Wrongly conceived doesn't matter) is the wrong idea!

Yes, I agree 100% that they should not be considered rogueish, or even refered to as a rogue. But in the Dev's defence, he said that the WE is as rogueish as WAR will get, not saying in terms as they are a rogue, but their tatics may seem such. I don't agree, but hey, I'm not the one try'n to steal cusomer base. As for the other sites, they took that term and ran with it, and that was the wrong idea to give to WAR fanboys.

As for positional attacks, many games and classes before WoW had positional attacks, this is nothing new to Mythic, as alot of classes in DAoC had positional attacks. And alot of other games and classes have a disengage abilities, this one differes from alot I've seen as it dose not drop aggro. These abilities do not infer rogue, as they are nothing new for any class in an mmo.

And onther thing, I do believe all DPS classes will a a disengage ablity and positionals, make the WE not much different than the rest in that respect.

[Hoodwink]

Well, pretty much every comparasion to the WoW rogue has aready been proven wrong, exept that they use knives.

Right... let's see.

Uses opening attacks generally at the start of combat? Yes.

Gains points via opening attacks and special attacks? Yes.

Has 'finisher' style moves that become more powerful with more points? Yes.

Uses poisons on their weapons for extra effects or damage? Yes.

Has abilities which can be used to flee from combat or gain a positional advantage? Yes.

Light-Medium armor, high dps? Yes.

Mechanically they are very similar to the WoW rogues. That's not to say these mechanics were first developed in WoW. In fact, none of them were. But the way the function is still similar.

Lore wise however they are less similar to the traditional rogue class.

For reference: http://www.war-resource.com/careers/witchelf.php#abilities

[Rerisen]

Right... let's see.

Uses opening attacks generally at the start of combat? Yes.

Gains points via opening attacks and special attacks? Yes.

Has 'finisher' style moves that become more powerful with more points? Yes.

Uses poisons on their weapons for extra effects or damage? Yes.

Has abilities which can be used to flee from combat or gain a positional advantage? Yes.

Light-Medium armor, high dps? Yes.

Mechanically they are very similar to the WoW rogues. That's not to say these mechanics were first developed in WoW. In fact, none of them were. But the way the function is still similar.

Lore wise however they are less similar to the traditional rogue class.

For reference: http://www.war-resource.com/careers/witchelf.php#abilities

The thing is WoW Rogue is 10x more dependent on stealth as a mechanic as any of those things. So while I don't like the Witch Elf getting any Rogue like abilities, the fact that she has those things above is still not going to allow her tactics to be anything like a Rogue. She is still going to attack and pick targets in the same way as the other Melee DPS classes in the game.

[WarMachine]

Right... let's see.

Uses opening attacks generally at the start of combat? Yes.

Gains points via opening attacks and special attacks? Yes.

Has 'finisher' style moves that become more powerful with more points? Yes.

Uses poisons on their weapons for extra effects or damage? Yes.

Has abilities which can be used to flee from combat or gain a positional advantage? Yes.

Light-Medium armor, high dps? Yes.

Mechanically they are very similar to the WoW rogues. That's not to say these mechanics were first developed in WoW. In fact, none of them were. But the way the function is still similar.

Lore wise however they are less similar to the traditional rogue class.

For reference: http://www.war-resource.com/careers/witchelf.php#abilities

And everything with the exception of poisons and openers can make them the same as a correctly spec'ed brute in CoV, a non stealth DPS class.

I should rephrase the the statement. Well, pretty much every comparasion to Specifically the WoW rogue has aready been proven wrong. I.E. their is no combo points, its frenzy, like the BG's Hate, SM's Balance, Coppa's Moral.

And, like I said, Rerisen, I completly argree that they shouldn't me marketed as rogue, they have really no simularities that stand out and make them simular to the WoW rogue as opposed to anything else.

[Hoodwink]

And everything with the exception of poisons and openers can make them the same as a correctly spec'ed brute in CoV, a non stealth DPS class.

Again I fully realize that WoW rogues are not the only class to ever use these mechanics. That doesn't mean the mechanics are not similar.

I should rephrase the the statement. Well, pretty much every comparasion to Specifically the WoW rogue has aready been proven wrong. I.E. their is no combo points, its frenzy, like the BG's Hate, SM's Balance, Coppa's Moral.

So you're saying that because they're called Frenzy Points instead of Combo Points they're not the same? What does it matter what they are called? The function is nearly identical.

And, like I said, Rerisen, I completly argree that they shouldn't me marketed as rogue, they have really no simularities that stand out and make them simular to the WoW rogue as opposed to anything else.

No similarities? None of the things I listed are similarities? What would you call them then?

[Gemini]

But the whole issue is entirely independent from the actual attack used, because it was shown in the class description on the gc that Witch Elves will use positionals, which I still don't see fitting from a lore point of view, as discussed with Thoden.
And of course there's also the thing with the retreat move which a Witch Elf shouldn't have at all, imo.

I agree about positional openers, though it seems as of yet we don't know of any, so that's good. Also, I don't think WEs should focus on positionals, but it makes sense that they have some. If a witch elf happens to see someone's back, they're gonna take advantedge of it, all the more pain they can cause and blood they can spill.

[WarMachine]

Again I fully realize that WoW rogues are not the only class to ever use these mechanics. That doesn't mean the mechanics are not similar.
But, nothing specifically simular to the WoW rogue.



So you're saying that because they're called Frenzy Points instead of Combo Points they're not the same? What does it matter what they are called? The function is nearly identical.
their is no combo points, its frenzy, like the BG's Hate, SM's Balance, Coppa's Moral.
Its not the same. Where in WoW you switch opponets the points go away, Frenzy stays with the WE. In actuallity, it functions exactly the same as Frenzy for the brute in CoV. Although I did notice that on that link it has the finisher as requiring frenzy to use, the dev in the video stated that it could be used any time, but then again, the web site ability list's stats and requirements are all speculation.



No similarities? None of the things I listed are similarities? What would you call them then?

And everything with the exception of poisons and openers can make them the same as a correctly spec'ed brute in CoV, a non stealth DPS class.

Specifically, nope... see example. Heck, even the correclty spec'ed brute could go invisable.

[Hoodwink]

But, nothing specifically simular to the WoW rogue.

Its not the same. Where in WoW you switch opponets the points go away, Frenzy stays with the WE. In actuallity, it functions exactly the same as Frenzy for the brute in CoV. Although I did notice that on that link it has the finisher as requiring frenzy to use, the dev in the video stated that it could be used any time, but then again, the web site ability list's stats and requirements are all speculation.

Specifically, nope... see example. Heck, even the correclty spec'ed brute could go invisable.

Ok, you can argue based on semantics if you want. We obviously are not on the same page here.

I don't see how the fact that a correctly specced brute is more like the WE than a rogue makes the two any less similar.

My only guess is that you're using a different definition of the word similar.

The way I (and the Random House Unabridged Dictionary) define similar is as having a general resemblance.

Or how about the American Heritage Dictionary?
sim-i-lar - Related in appearance or nature; alike though not identical.

By most people's definition the WoW Rogue and WAR Witch Elf are similar. They don't need to be exactly the same to be considered so. The two have many similarities by any definition of the word I can find.

To say that the Witch Elf is a ripoff of the WoW Rogue is wrong as not only are there important differences between the two, but the WoW Rogue is in no way the original.

That however, does not make them dissimilar or incomparable. In their current build the WE and Rogue are analogous in both their role in the game and the mechanics they use.

The stats and requirements listed are pulled from the tooltips in the video listed as the source on that site. Obviously they are subject to change but they are also the only source on the matter, period.

[WarMachine]

Ok, you can argue based on semantics if you want. We obviously are not on the same page here.

I don't see how the fact that a correctly specced brute is more like the WE than a rogue makes the two any less similar.

My only guess is that you're using a different definition of the word similar.

The way I (and the Random House Unabridged Dictionary) define similar is as having a general resemblance.

Or how about the American Heritage Dictionary?
sim-i-lar - Related in appearance or nature; alike though not identical.

By most people's definition the WoW Rogue and WAR Witch Elf are similar. They don't need to be exactly the same to be considered so. The two have many similarities by any definition of the word I can find.

To say that the Witch Elf is a ripoff of the WoW Rogue is wrong as not only are there important differences between the two, but the WoW Rogue is in no way the original.

That however, does not make them dissimilar or incomparable. In their current build the WE and Rogue are analogous in both their role in the game and the mechanics they use.

The stats and requirements listed are pulled from the tooltips in the video listed as the source on that site. Obviously they are subject to change but they are also the only source on the matter, period.

Your right, we are using verring degrees of symularity. But you keep using a very open degree, that can include 75% of classes in all mmos. And as you start stepping up the degree these classes start falling off. In actuallity, the WoW rogue drops off the list very early. And then, you have yet to compare the WE to anything in DAoC, and game older than WoW, and made by mythic. Alot of the mmo source for WAR comes from here, these classes actually have more symularities to the WE than the WoW rogue will ever have, now if you look hard enough, then all classes in all mmos have symularities.

And the biggest difference, the WE will play nothing like the WoW rogue.

[Hoodwink]

Your right, we are using verring degrees of symularity. But you keep using a very open degree, that can include 75% of classes in all mmos. And as you start stepping up the degree these classes start falling off. In actuallity, the WoW rogue drops off the list very early. And then, you have yet to compare the WE to anything in DAoC, and game older than WoW, and made by mythic. Alot of the mmo source for WAR comes from here, these classes actually have more symularities to the WE than the WoW rogue will ever have, now if you look hard enough, then all classes in all mmos have symularities.

Ok, let me put it this way. Of all the classes in WoW, which is most similar to the Witch Elf?

Now of all the careers in WAR, which is most similar to the rogue?

The fact that there are other classes in other MMOs that bear greater resemblance mechanically has nothing to do with the comparison I and other people are making. People use WoW to make associations because it is the lowest common denominator. There are far more people who know how a rogue in WoW works than a properly specced brute in DAoC.

To simplify: No one is saying that rogues are the model for the witch elf career. People are just making the analogy because the two are generally alike and many people understand what a rogue is.

And the biggest difference, the WE will play nothing like the WoW rogue.

That is very much your opinion. One which is obviously not shared by many people (including Jeff Hickman).

I encourage you to point out the ways in which the two are dissimilar. However, I think it is unfair to tell people who call WEs and rogues similar that they are flat out wrong.

[Kellaris]

If they had let Marauder and Chosen be Female then they could have made the Dark Elf Assassin and give him all the sneaky, backstabbing, opportunistic stuff you could dream in a Rogue class, and also make him male only, since Females would already be open to enough Destruction classes.

I really hate this arguments about balancing chaos classes with WE.
Another gender restricted class on the same side does not balance anything. It just doubles the problem.


If they bastardize the Witch Elf into a Assassin/Fighter hybrid now, that kind of kills the chance down the line that the real DE Assassin would ever have a place in the game in a expansion. Since a lot of the stuff you would like to give him both in play-style and abiliteis would already be co-opted by the Witch Elf. And if they are just saving the assassin motif for the Skaven, then that is a equally compelling reason to just let the Witch Elf be what she has traditionally been and no more than that.

But they do bastardize WE into Assasin. Only the skin is completly WE. Rest is mostly Assasin.
Assasin chance is already killed, becouse WE gets skills that he should have.
Without stealth there is not too much stuff to make them different.

Take WE, change skin, change frenzy points into combo points and You have assasin.

[WarMachine]

Ok, let me put it this way. Of all the classes in WoW, which is most similar to the Witch Elf?
In truth, the warrior has more symularities.

Now of all the careers in WAR, which is most similar to the rogue?
At this point, any of the DPS classes. And in point, as even the OP has mentioned, the Choppa, or even the WH. I can't compare the WE yet, as theirs not much to go on.



The fact that there are other classes in other MMOs that bear greater resemblance mechanically has nothing to do with the comparison I and other people are making. People use WoW to make associations because it is the lowest common denominator. There are far more people who know how a rogue in WoW works than a properly specced brute in DAoC.

To simplify: No one is saying that rogues are the model for the witch elf career. People are just making the analogy because the two are generally alike and many people understand what a rogue is.



That is very much your opinion. One which is obviously not shared by many people (including Jeff Hickman).


Now, where exactly did he say this class will play like a WoW rogue? Or are you just filling in for the expressions "Rogueish" and Sneaky"? You can't assume he ment that (Cuz that then makes it YOUR opinion), eather he did or he didn't.

I encourage you to point out the ways in which the two are dissimilar. However, I think it is unfair to tell people who call WEs and rogues similar that they are flat out wrong.

The single handed biggest differance, the WoW rogue relises on stealth, and cannot survive without it. The WE relies on her damage, and doing as much as possible.

[Thrakkesh]

If you think the that a Witch Elf is a WoW Rogue clone because they both do DPS in PVP and have positional attacks, frankly, you're wrong. Rogues as a melee class were crap compared to Warriors. a WoW Rogue is about disruption, plain and simple. Melee interrupts, stuns, and an Insta-cast crowd control) (as well as a non-combat crowd control). Poisons, okay--sure. I guess. Though we have no idea how Witch Elf Poisons or elixirs work, but what made the WoW Rogue a WoW Rogue was, more then just vanish (1 ability) was the multiple stuns and shutdowns.

The Witch Elf, according to their definition doesn't seem to have these things. She has an 'escape' mechanism, and she might very well be agile and movement-based, but you know what? A WoW Rogue is not those things. a WoW Rogue is less mobile then a Warrior. They have one haste buff on a lllllllong cooldown (talented snare break) and a go-invisible button that reduces their movement speed and frees them from snares.

The only mechanics they share are poisons (which may work differently for a Witch Elf for all we know) and a combo-based system. Only here's the thing: WOW DIDN'T INVENT THAT. That system has been around for a while.

What about positional? Okay sure, but the Choppa are positionally oriented as well (PAX build had the snare from behind only, as well as their primary damage dealing attack). Hammerer's weren't, but oddly they had less DPS and more disruption, which to me felt more like Rogue then Choppa did. I'm even going to go ahead and guess the Marauder will be too--Mythic is big on the DPS classes behind positional melee fighters. So this is something that's shared across multiple planes, and thus irrelevent.

but this is really a silly argument, I mean crying foul on a class we know next to nothing about. No skill list, no hands on experience, just a few blurbs and a video.

[Thrakkesh]

Witch Hunters have been listed with positionals. I don't think Choppa's have, but who's to say they won't get one? Still, so far it doesn't seem to be a 'key' component of their class.


Choppa's do in fact have positional attacks in the build in PAX (which may be out of date or whatever). Their primary non-beserking melee strike was behind only, as was their snare/AP drain. Hammerer's did not, and instead relied on a sort of odd disruption chaining (knockdown--damage dealing attack that deals extra damage while knocked down).

[WarMachine]

If you think the that a Witch Elf is a WoW Rogue clone because they both do DPS in PVP and have positional attacks, frankly, you're wrong. Rogues as a melee class were crap compared to Warriors. a WoW Rogue is about disruption, plain and simple. Melee interrupts, stuns, and an Insta-cast crowd control) (as well as a non-combat crowd control). Poisons, okay--sure. I guess. Though we have no idea how Witch Elf Poisons or elixirs work, but what made the WoW Rogue a WoW Rogue was, more then just vanish (1 ability) was the multiple stuns and shutdowns.

The Witch Elf, according to their definition doesn't seem to have these things. She has an 'escape' mechanism, and she might very well be agile and movement-based, but you know what? A WoW Rogue is not those things. a WoW Rogue is less mobile then a Warrior.

The only mechanics they share are poisons (which may work differently for a Witch Elf for all we know) and a combo-based system. Only here's the thing: WOW DIDN'T INVENT THAT. That system has been around for a while.

What about positional? Okay sure, but the Choppa are positionally oriented as well (PAX build had the snare from behind only, as well as their primary damage dealing attack). Hammerer's weren't, but oddly they had less DPS and more disruption, which to me felt more like Rogue then Choppa did. I'm even going to go ahead and guess the Marauder will be too--Mythic is big on the DPS classes behind positional melee fighters. So this is something that's shared across multiple planes, and thus irrelevent.

but this is really a silly argument, I mean crying foul on a class we know next to nothing about. No skill list, no hands on experience, just a few blurbs and a video.

Thank you, that made more sence than my half asleep posts. You can't base speculation of an barely made class to anything at this stage. And as a Dev posted somewhere on this forum, you can only compare the WAR classes to DAoC, because thats where their experiance and insparations lie.

[Noli me Tangere]

DAoC may not have had combo points but they certainly have openers and finishers. Every single melee class had this in DAoC, unlike WoW.

Right, the stealther classes (and other melee classes, in fact) may not have had combo points, but they could chain various moves together. You had opening styles, and reactionary styles (styles that could only be performed after 'something' happened, like a dodge, parry, etc..) and those could open up further styles. All the way up to finishing moves.

Different styles had different added bonuses like bleed effects, stuns, detaunts, taunts, more damage, and so on.

In many ways, WoW borrowed a lot from every game that came before. And DAoC was no exception, a lot of the things you saw first in DAoC.. you saw a version of in WoW.

..

I think I have a problem with them handling a Witch Elf anything like a rogue class period. Everything about them says they drug and poison themselves into an insane frenzy and come at their enemies in a fast, furious, unrelenting onslaught of metal, flesh, and blood spray.

The idea of preparation I can see in a witch elf. In game their drugging and poisoning of themselves can be viewed as temporary buffs that may have some sort of tax when they wear off.

But calling them a or comparing them to a rogue class.. just suggests all sorts of things.. that don't make sense for the idea of "unstoppable frenzied killing machine" ..rogue classes in most games are cold and calculated killers.. Witch Elves are murderous and all that.. but it's not the same idea as a Rogue in the least.

So making that comparison does not say good things.

They can be a damage dealing class, without being called a rogue class.. so why did they make the rogue reference at all? That bothers me.

[Rerisen]

Thank you, that made more sence than my half asleep posts. You can't base speculation of an barely made class to anything at this stage.

This would be nice, but the problem is that people already were speculating on what this class was all about. And the descriptions from the devs were really not too helpful. You could already see all these undesirables saying the WE is the Rogue of Warhammer lining up to play this class - and probably being useless on the battlefield because of it. Same thing as people clamoring about Swordmaster tanks putting out DPS like a top damage class.

It's true we don't know all the specifics of the Witch Elf yet, and that is a good thing because the community can give their imput before things are finalized and say, hey if your going to make it like X, we think that would be totally the wrong direction. Maybe they need to hear that and maybe they already know it, or maybe they just don't care. But it is good for the players to give out their opinions while there might still be time for certain decisions to go either way.

[WarMachine]

This would be nice, but the problem is that people already were speculating on what this class was all about. And the descriptions from the devs were really not too helpful. You could already see all these undesirables saying the WE is the Rogue of Warhammer lining up to play this class - and probably being useless on the battlefield because of it. Same thing as people clamoring about Swordmaster tanks putting out DPS like a top damage class.

It's true we don't know all the specifics of the Witch Elf yet, and that is a good thing because the community can give their imput before things are finalized and say, hey if your going to make it like X, we think that would be totally the wrong direction. Maybe they need to hear that and maybe they already know it, or maybe they just don't care. But it is good for the players to give out their opinions while there might still be time for certain decisions to go either way.
I think those people will be in for a rude awakaning. The first few days it will be be dead WEs on the battlefield, and shouts in the DE's starting zone "Wat LVL doz I get my st3a1th so I canz pwnz stuff". Then it will all blow over...... I hope.....

[Hoodwink]

In truth, the warrior has more symularities.

If you were to say that a witch elf is like a cross between a rogue and a warrior I would say that is a better description than simply a rogue. However, the reason no one is comparing the witch elf to a warrior is because a rogue is closer.

A warrior gains rage from normal attacks and taking damage and spends it to use abilities. The warrior keeps its point reserve on the character. A warrior uses stances to access different abilities.

A rogue spends energy to use special attacks and openers to gain combo points to use on finishers. A rogue keeps its point reserve on its target. A rogue uses stealth to access openers and must generally be out of combat to access stealth.

A witch elf spends action points to use special attacks and openers to gain frenzy to use on finishers. A witch elf keeps its point reserve on the character. A witch elf must be out of combat to access openers.

If we later learn that a WE gains Frenzy from normal attacks as well as taking damage your case becomes much stronger. However there is still the matter of lighter armor, poisons, positional attacks, and escape abilities.

At this point, any of the DPS classes. And in point, as even the OP has mentioned, the Choppa.

Now, where exactly did he say this class will play like a WoW rogue? Or are you just filling in for the expressions "Rogueish" and Sneaky"? You can't assume he ment that, eather he did or he didn't.

http://www.curse.com/videos/details/627/

[16:55] Jeff Hickman: A witch elf is really the closest thing we have to a rogue with only the good parts and not the bad parts.

I'm not trying to say it's absolutely true just because Jeff said it. I'm simply saying that in my opinion and many others the rogue is the most similar when comparing WAR and WoW.

And if I was incapable of forming my own opinion I would happily take Jeff Hickman's word over yours or the OP's.

The single handed biggest differance, the WoW rogue relises on stealth, and cannot survive without it. The WE relies on her damage, and doing as much as possible.

A Rogue spends a very small percentage of his time when fighting in stealth. Yes it is important to his survival but it doesn't change that the rogue uses openers, combo builders, and finishers... and poisons... and daggers to fight with.

[Thrakkesh]

.

It's true we don't know all the specifics of the Witch Elf yet, and that is a good thing because the community can give their imput before things are finalized and say, hey if your going to make it like X, we think that would be totally the wrong direction. Maybe they need to hear that and maybe they already know it, or maybe they just don't care. But it is good for the players to give out their opinions while there might still be time for certain decisions to go either way.

That's maybe partially true, but what isn't helping is you totally blowing things out of proportion and sort of insisting that the Witch Elf is a WoW Rogue clone when frankly the description doesn't even suggest that. You may certainly argue against the mechanics themselves--are Witch Elves supposed to really be about mobility, for example? and even argue with things like a combo-based system as being too similiar to WoW Rogue mechanic (which would be my only complaint, but frankly I'd have to know more about their finishers before I said that for sure--if the Witch Elf 'finisher' turns out to be a 6 second stun, I'll be annoyed) , but now you're making a generalization that's totally unfounded.

And again, I re-iterate--it's one thing to give feedback when we know something about the class other then a 30 second video. Trying to get things changed when we don't even know what it is? Let me give you an example of why I think the idea is crazy.

Say to yourself, out loud, this:

"I don't know the specific mechanics (or anything actually) about the class, but I want it changed."

That's what it sounds like to me.

[Kellaris]

What about positional? Okay sure, but the Choppa are positionally oriented as well (PAX build had the snare from behind only, as well as their primary damage dealing attack). Hammerer's weren't, but oddly they had less DPS and more disruption, which to me felt more like Rogue then Choppa did.

In fact, hammerer has ome position based attacks.


but this is really a silly argument, I mean crying foul on a class we know next to nothing about. No skill list, no hands on experience, just a few blurbs and a video.

That is true.
Whole mess comes from Jeff H. words that WE will be closest class to rogue.
Many people hears rogue and understand WoW rogue. That is wrong.
I have small experience in WoW, so i understand rogue like L2 "dagger" classes.
Mobility, backstabs, bleeds (dot) etc. No stealth.
And what I have seen so far is very similiar to my definition of rogue, and very cool IMHO
This is the class i hoped DE will have. But I hoped it will be assasin.
I have had different vision of WE

[Thrakkesh]

This is the class i hoped DE will have. But I hoped it will be assasin.
I have had different vision of WE

Now see that is valid, I don't really truly think of Witch Elves as being non-agile--I mean, that's what high init/high WS means, but I'm not sure if that exemplifies them. We'll have to see, hopefully September will go in depth

[Rerisen]

And again, I re-iterate--it's one thing to give feedback when we know something about the class other then a 30 second video. Trying to get things changed when we don't even know what it is? Let me give you an example of why I think the idea is crazy.



If you have read the thread thoroughly you will see that it is not about me thinking Witch Elf = Rogue. It was me not liking that I was seeing in every Witch Elf thread on more than one site, other people immediately making that connection. That lead me to ask the question why are they saying this? And when I went over the comments of the devs there were certainly hints in this direction that could be misleading. Then, admitting that we don't know all the specifics I also put out there that if this did prove to be true, that the Witch Elf *was* being morphed toward more of a sneaky, deceptive, subtle class that cannot stand toe to toe with other melee and have a chance... that I thought that would be a mistake in design.

I think that is a pretty clear position and certainly nothing outlandish or reactionary. But then folks started arguing their own opinion on whether the Witch Elf was too Rogue'y' or not. We just don't know all the specifics yet, but most do know if they would like that to be the case or not.

If all the Witch Elf shares in common with a rogue, is the frenzy point system, light armor and high DPS, I don't really think that is enough to have your lead statement about the class be, "This is our class closest to a rogue." Even if that comment is true, it still is not the most accurate one to describe that the Witch Elf is at its core still just the DE melee DPS class, much more like the rest of the melee DPS classes in the game than some wandering loner sneaking around the edges of the battle waiting to surprise or ambush casters and badly weakened players, which is the usual line of thought people are obviously getting when they hear the word 'Rogue' whether that means wow Rogue or just in general.

Which brings up another interesting distinction in itself and I think why I object to the comparison. Rogues in many mmo's are loner type classes that often or at times exist outside the normal group framework, possibly away from healers, and quite often purposely avoiding front and center melee combats. This definition goes back beyond mmo's as far back as pen and paper RPG's. Obviously, in that sense the Witch Elf is probably not going to be a traditional Rogue. It's a melee DPS class that should very much work right in the group with your tank/healers, etc.

Paul from Tentonhammer.com interview. “Our girl only class (Witch Elves) are rock hard, at the front, killing people, taking names… she doesn’t sit at the back… she’s at the front…”

[Kellaris]

Now see that is valid, I don't really truly think of Witch Elves as being non-agile--I mean, that's what high init/high WS means, but I'm not sure if that exemplifies them. We'll have to see, hopefully September will go in depth

Agile, YES, but still different.
I see WE as warriors whos strenght is in lack of self-preservation thinking. She strikes fast, she strikes strong and care not what happens later as far as her enemy will bleed enogh.
We should use swords, not daggers. Dagger is a weapon of sneaking, backstabbing class. Swords are weapons of the warriors.
I would give her positional attacks, but strongest from front side. Yes, front, becouse WE likes fighting face to face. WE likes to see the blood from cutted throat, the fear in the eyes of her enemy and likes to see their face when they die.
Also, strong frontal attacks are interesting mechanic becouse her enemy has good argument to turn tail and run and this is good.
Most of her attack should have minor debuff effects. Minor attack speed decrease, short stun or sth. like that. It would reflect a respect of normal warrior in fight with personification of fury and this would be her way of defense.
Self buffing drugs and poisons are ok.
No escape moves
No backstabs
No daggers
This is assasins way.

I was never a fan of WE career, becouse I suspected (And devs. confirmed that) that biggest reason to include her will be all "sexy stuff".
Now, it is worse that anything I have suspected.
Not only WE is here (I could live with that and wait for assasin in the future) but they steal most of assasin stuff making assasin carrer almost impossible to implement in the future.
And the class I wanted to play so much is female only forever.:cry:

[abr4]

OMG WarMachine, you're so hung up on that comparison of Witch Elves with WoW Rogues that you don't see the core problem.

The fact that the Witch Elf can even be compared to a rogueish type of character to begin with. Witch Elves don't attack from behind, they're straight up in the face whatever they get to first killing machines (not saying they wouldn't attack from behind, but they don't specifically pick targets with their back turned to them either which is what you do when performing positionals). And they most certainly don't have any moves to retreat because they are so drugged that they don't care about dieing.
Now this is different from the Slayers who actually want to die, Witch Elves just don't care whether they die or not.

[Kellaris]

Now this is different from the Slayers who actually want to die, Witch Elves just don't care whether they die or not.


I don't agree on this point.
Slayers do not want to die. They want to find an opponent good enough to kill them.
That is a difference. If they wanted to die, they would jump off the mountain. Or they would take the barrel of gunpowder and let the troll eat them.
In combat, they are doing their best trying to kill opponent. They are dodging and parrying.

In my opinion they show more self preservation options than drugged, frenzied witch.

[Xiara]

I have always thought of the Witch Elves as more of a "Blade Dancer" type fighter.....not that they use dancing attacks....but just a deadly flow to their attacks and whirling blades a pleanty.

[WarMachine]

OMG WarMachine, you're so hung up on that comparison of Witch Elves with WoW Rogues that you don't see the core problem.

The fact that the Witch Elf can even be compared to a rogueish type of character to begin with. Witch Elves don't attack from behind, they're straight up in the face whatever they get to first killing machines (not saying they wouldn't attack from behind, but they don't specifically pick targets with their back turned to them either which is what you do when performing positionals). And they most certainly don't have any moves to retreat because they are so drugged that they don't care about dieing.
Now this is different from the Slayers who actually want to die, Witch Elves just don't care whether they die or not.
Actually, I'n not hung up on a comparison, thats why I even started debating. Others want to bend speculation to fit their opinions, that is the core problem. I don't think their is enough evidence between WE and WoW Rogue are enough to claim any comparision as opposed to any other class. I decided to drop it now because, I'm not changing anyones miss guided views. The fact is simple, you can't judge a class off of speculation of something you know nothing about.

[Mortissia]

Opportunistic. Rogue-like. What comes to mind for me is a DAoC assasine type. Instead of Stealth openers they will be reactionary openers. Maybe with full attack chains. Of course this is just the picture that paints in my head and has no relation to what may or may not appear in game.

"Without the bad parts". Stealth and stun locks. WEs are going to have to earn their victories.

[abr4]

I don't agree on this point.
Slayers do not want to die. They want to find an opponent good enough to kill them.
That is a difference. If they wanted to die, they would jump off the mountain. Or they would take the barrel of gunpowder and let the troll eat them.
In combat, they are doing their best trying to kill opponent. They are dodging and parrying.

In my opinion they show more self preservation options than drugged, frenzied witch.

Sry bout that, I'm not exactly a dwarven lore crack, it's just the impression I got about Slayers and why they're not in.

Actually, I'n not hung up on a comparison, thats why I even started debating. Others want to bend speculation to fit their opinions, that is the core problem. I don't think their is enough evidence between WE and WoW Rogue are enough to claim any comparision as opposed to any other class.

You still don't get it. It doesn't matter whether or not you can compare Witch Elves to WoW Rogues, it's about the rogueish gameplay mechanics that bother me (as well as other people), because they're not very witch elfy and would have been more fitting with an assassin class.

[Onos]

A witch elf spends action points to use special attacks and openers to gain frenzy to use on finishers. A witch elf keeps its point reserve on the character. A witch elf must be out of combat to access openers.

Actually I am not sure that is true. No one said if frenzy points are held by the with elf or by her target. What they said, and I paraphrase is that 'She gains frenzy points by using abilities, and then that can be used to power other abilities - more frnzy points, more damage done". And tbh that could open some interesting possibilities, say gain lots of frenzy points beating on a tank, and then go own a clothy nearby.

Also the other point could be quite wrong, just as she has the ability to leap really far, she might have an ability that lets her get very fast close to her target so she can use her openers - say like a maddened charge (which would work perfectly with the blood crazed chicks). What I am getting at is that right now we know 4 of her abilities (poisons, opener, self buffs, leap). Who knows everything that she will have, if 4 abilities make a class then this game will suck (and we all know it won't)

However there is still the matter of lighter armor, poisons, positional attacks, and escape abilities.

The only one I have somewhat of an issue is the escape - everything else makes sense lore wise, but I can see why they added it, as no one will want to play a class that is as squishy as they are and not have any chance - kinda like playing a pre buffed WoW warlock.



A Rogue spends a very small percentage of his time when fighting in stealth. Yes it is important to his survival but it doesn't change that the rogue uses openers, combo builders, and finishers... and poisons... and daggers to fight with.

A rogue's main game play as stated are his disrupts. A rogue that just stays and fights you has no chance. That'd be a rogue that spams Sinister Strike on you, and then Eviscerates. A rogue's main play in WoW is interrupting anything you want to do, and using the time you are incapacitated to do as much damage as he can to you. (hello stun lock)

[WarMachine]

Actually I am not sure that is true. No one said if frenzy points are held by the with elf or by her target. What they said, and I paraphrase is that 'She gains frenzy points by using abilities, and then that can be used to power other abilities - more frnzy points, more damage done". And tbh that could open some interesting possibilities, say gain lots of frenzy points beating on a tank, and then go own a clothy nearby.

No, that is correct, she holds the frenzy points, thats been stated, and now this is a pointless argument. It has been stated, it works the same way all other classes build their "special" (i.e. Hate, grudge, moral, and balance) points. I think he is just saying the opposet to feed a fire that I have given up on.

I mean people see 2min of half finished WE game play and they think their experts, and claim WoW rip off!
As for game play, its all in how you play it.

Edit: As you can see in this vid, http://www.jeuxvideo.tv/warhammer-online-age-of-reckoning-video-42347.html The WE changes targets and her frenzy doesn't reset.

[abr4]

I mean people see 2min of half finished WE game play and they think their experts, and claim WoW rip off!


. . . . . .

[Shifte]

I like playing a rogue in wow. Perhaps I'll have to go back to nursery school, since that clearly makes me a child?


**

They should include the basic rogue archetype in one way or another. Even without stealth. Dual wielding blades, might be what they mean.

[WarMachine]

I like playing a rogue in wow. Perhaps I'll have to go back to nursery school, since that clearly makes me a child?


**

They should include the basic rogue archetype in one way or another. Even without stealth. Dual wielding blades, might be what they mean.

I think you posted in the wrong thread, we were discussing WE vs the WoW rouge in class simularities. You want this thead http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17026 that will help determine if you should "go back to nursery school" for playing a WoW rogue. BTW, I think all the DPS classes in WAR can dual weild blades.

[Xiara]

Also the other point could be quite wrong, just as she has the ability to leap really far, she might have an ability that lets her get very fast close to her target so she can use her openers - say like a maddened charge (which would work perfectly with the blood crazed chicks).

That would rid alot of folks of their fears that the Witch Elves are "Rogues," if a charge is the positional attack mentioned. When I heard "positional attacks" I was sitting there thinking "Sonofa! Backstab and Sneak, sigh...". I think it would be great to have a quick charge ability...would definitely surprise someone who's not paying attention, and completely fits the WE's. Unfortunately, I can imagine the ability being a charging backstab of some sorts, where the enemy has to be facing away from you. I'd much prefer it from any standpoint.

I see alot of good points between all the bickering in this thread. I dont want to see the WE become anything like the Rogue class, whether it be EQ1 or WoW. Warhammer Online seems to have very "unique" takes on every class so far, so I don't see why they would stop here. I personally am not dissapointed with any of the classes so far.

[Gemini]

I think you posted in the wrong thread, we were discussing WE vs the WoW rouge in class simularities. You want this thead http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17026 that will help determine if you should "go back to nursery school" for playing a WoW rogue. BTW, I think all the DPS classes in WAR can dual weild blades.

Nope, Witch Hunter is swords/guns/stakes/torches/ect, Hammerer is hammers(surprise surprise), Marauder is single-handed weapons of all sorts with offhand mutations, and the High Elf class is likely to be White Lions, who use large two handed axes, if memory serves correctly. So you have Choppas, and Witch Elves there.

As for the whole "like a rogue" thing, I think he just meant they dual-wield, have poison and some poitionals(not nessicarily just from behind or two the side, but also in front).

[WarMachine]

Nope, Witch Hunter is swords/guns/stakes/torches/ect, Hammerer is hammers(surprise surprise), Marauder is single-handed weapons of all sorts with offhand mutations, and the High Elf class is likely to be White Lions, who use large two handed axes, if memory serves correctly. So you have Choppas, and Witch Elves there.

As for the whole "like a rogue" thing, I think he just meant they dual-wield, have poison and some poitionals(not nessicarily just from behind or two the side, but also in front).
I stand corrected.

But in referance, I was thinking he ment baldes = swords/daggers/knives/any bladed weapon. The WE, Choppa, WH, and marader could fall into that. But the hammer does not, and the HE class has not ben mentioned.

[Thrakkesh]

Choppas, Hammerers also Dual wield, heck even the Witch hunter does.

And again, stop misunderstanding the positional DPS stuff. EVERY MELEE DPS CHARACTER IN GAME CURRENTLY HAS POSITIONAL ATTACKS.

[abr4]

BUT NONE OF THEM HAVE IT DESCRIBED AS A CORE MECHANINC SO FAR

(capslock is cruise controll for cool :cool: )

[Thrakkesh]

Funny, that was the first thing I heard about the Choppa: Positional melee being a core mechanic. :roll:

[Jest]

I think the people labelling the Witch Elf and Witch Hunter as "rogueish" are those who either love playing rogues or are hell-bent against rogues (for whatever reasons). I see no reason why we need to label the Warhammer careers with cheap titles as "rogueish". The Warhammer world is extremely vast and detailed, why cheapen the lore by slapping on cookie-cutter titles to the careers? The Witch Elf and Witch Hunter won't be anything like the rogues, assassins, thieves, and other 2-dimensional stealthing classes of other MMORPGs. Just because they wear leather or use daggers or excel at combat from behind doesn't make them rogues. It's just one small aspect of character design in a multi-dimensional character. I'm sure the people who love playing assassins/stealthers will likely flock to these two classes, but will soon find that they are much more interesting than the former.

[Kellaris]

I think for some people word "rogue" means the same as "WOW rogue".
And this is not truth. There are many rogues in many games and slight minority of them are invisible.
Rogue is a someone that use ambusch, fast attack, backstabbing, small arms and agility to achieve succes in combat.
WE and WH fits to this category.
I have never played WoW (not mentioning 10 days trial) so I don't know if they are similiar to wow rogue or not. I don't care. WoW may be most popular game in the world but it is not the only one.

[Jest]

Yeah, I actually went on to talk about how a rogue was firstly a noun to describe someone's character and it expanded to represent the similar classes in the old pencil&paper RPGs and the first RPG video games; but my post became like 6 paragraphs long, so I chopped it all out :neutral:. In short, I wouldn't refer to anything in the Warhammer world with such a term, because really, every career in Warhammer is uniquely special. Wouldn't refer to an Ironbreaker as a "warrior", it just sounds wrong. Witch Elves are Witch Elves. They have their own characteristics and mentality. Their purpose in the game(s) is not to pilfer pockets or use subversion. I think as soon as people log into WAR it will be evident that the careers are very detailed and nothing like any other MMORPG. Thanks to the near 25 years of content Mythic has at their disposal. :)

[Kellaris]

Yeah, I actually went on to talk about how a rogue was firstly a noun to describe someone's character and it expanded to represent the similar classes in the old pencil&paper RPGs and the first RPG video games; but my post became like 6 paragraphs long, so I chopped it all out :neutral:. In short, I wouldn't refer to anything in the Warhammer world with such a term, because really, every career in Warhammer is uniquely special. Wouldn't refer to an Ironbreaker as a "warrior", it just sounds wrong. Witch Elves are Witch Elves. They have their own characteristics and mentality. Their purpose in the game(s) is not to pilfer pockets or use subversion. I think as soon as people log into WAR it will be evident that the careers are very detailed and nothing like any other MMORPG. Thanks to the near 25 years of content Mythic has at their disposal. :)

You are mostly right. But They sometimes choose to forget about some of this 25 years old lore a bit.
Also. Lets try to forget about the lore for a minute. What we see?
Fast attack fighter. Very mobile. Unarmored and dagger wielding. Designed for flanking (positionals) and hit and run attacks (escape moves). How would You call a character with that description?? Some people I know would call him "dagger". I call him "rogue".
And this is the point of this discussion.
I was never a fan of WE career. But If she has to be playable, I think it would be more lore-suitable for her to fight like choppa. Greenskins might have some Goblin sneaky git to balance Witch Hunter.
And if they wanted a "Dagger"/"Rogue" for Dark Elves, there are better choices than WE.

[Jest]

You are mostly right. But They sometimes choose to forget about some of this 25 years old lore a bit.
Also. Lets try to forget about the lore for a minute. What we see?
Fast attack fighter. Very mobile. Unarmored and dagger wielding. Designed for flanking (positionals) and hit and run attacks (escape moves). How would You call a character with that description?? Some people I know would call him "dagger". I call him "rogue".
And this is the point of this discussion.
I was never a fan of WE career. But If she has to be playable, I think it would be more lore-suitable for her to fight like choppa. Greenskins might have some Goblin sneaky git to balance Witch Hunter.
And if they wanted a "Dagger"/"Rogue" for Dark Elves, there are better choices than WE.

While I see your point; I don't know if it's just me or not, but when I think of Warhammer, it's impossible for me to ignore the lore. The game is based on an already established "world". In Warhammer, each career is explained in detail. I don't look at the Witch Elf and think "Oh, it's a rogue", I think, "Oh, it's a Witch Elf", but it's also because I am familiar with the TT. I suppose people who have never heard of Games Workshop or Warhammer Fantasy Battles, who see WAR for the first time, might make generalizations- my point is, though, that once they actually start playing the game, they will begin to shed their preconceptions about the careers. Least, that's what I am guessing.

[Drakhon]

Very soft restriction IMHO.
There is said tad male children ............. who survive .......... becomes assasins.
No proof that they are ONLY assasins.
Sure, this ones are the best of the best of the best.
But I'm also quite sure that Temple of Khaine is not only organisation in DE society that trains assasins.

The Temple of Khaine is not the only DE organization that trains "assassins", but they are the only one that train "Assassins", specifically in reference to the unit in the table top game. They are the Adepts of Khaine.

Saying that there could be other generic assassins is an argument that could be used for any of the playable armies in WAR.