Witch Elves... I dont get it.

[Freax]

Even though it is in the Warhammer lore, the all-female thing for the only rogue type on destruction is a bad direction and going to disappoint alot of people in my opinion, especially if you are trying to avoid the multitudes of guys running around as chicks in tight leather spandex. Yes Destruction does need more chick classes, but I want WAR not a Rocky horror picture... hopefully it doesnt become an eyesore :(.

Also "Witch" is a weird name for an assassin/rogue type class. One would think that Witch's deal with magic, curses and hexes, Voodoo etc. So if your new to Warhammer your going to be confused about what they are. Swordmaster people know exactly what it is you do, Unless they make Swordmaster's shoot fireballs and icebolts.

[shotgunbadger]

It's the name of the unit from WHFB, and that's just how it works.

It DOES use magic, it uses magic to make elixers and poisons to kill people. Trust me, no one will go "oh you're a Witch Elf, you sit back and cast right?" for long, if at all.

[Warsaw]

Well they have been using the name Witch Elf for years now so it seems like a good one. Also, female only? Way to make an original topic.

This game is crazy. Following the lore of warhammer to make female only witch elves. The fact that they actually following the lore as precise as they can and don't change it for people who just like to whine is what makes the story so much better for me. Following the lore... what idiots. Also....

"The most savage sect of Khaine worshippers are known as the Brides of Khaine, more commonly called Witch Elves (or Maibd in the Dark Elf language). They are an all-female cult of warrior priestesses."

Also, saying this is bad. Saying gender specific xlasses is bad is retarded. Why? Well, all the hard core lore fans wil be very happy about this and it will make so many more Warhammer TT fans want to play the game. Also, I think everyone who has whined about gender specific classes are still going to play anyway you people just whine to much and then make a new topic about the same topic in many other topics so people can see you whine because why? You like to whine.

And I said it once befor I'll say it again. If you don't like it. Don't play it! Because like I said, in the end the ammount of hard core lore fans will replace people like you.

[MageLite]

Witch elves aren't assasin/rogue/thief types. They're warrior priestesses.

[Freax]

Well they have been using the name Witch Elf for years now so it seems like a good one. Also, female only? Way to make an original topic.

This game is crazy. Following the lore of warhammer to make female only witch elves. The fact that they actually following the lore as precise as they can and don't change it for people who just like to whine is what makes the story so much better for me. Following the lore... what idiots. Also....

"The most savage sect of Khaine worshippers are known as the Brides of Khaine, more commonly called Witch Elves (or Maibd in the Dark Elf language). They are an all-female cult of warrior priestesses."

Also, saying this is bad. Saying gender specific xlasses is bad is retarded. Why? Well, all the hard core lore fans wil be very happy about this and it will make so many more Warhammer TT fans want to play the game. Also, I think everyone who has whined about gender specific classes are still going to play anyway you people just whine to much and then make a new topic about the same topic in many other topics so people can see you whine because why? You like to whine.

And I said it once befor I'll say it again. If you don't like it. Don't play it! Because like I said, in the end the ammount of hard core lore fans will replace people like you.Buddy your too defensive. I know of the Warhammer lore, but im talking about the general gaming public. This isnt just what i think, this is from everyone in my WoW guild and people I talked to at LAN, pretty much everyone ive talked to about it. If your gonna choose between whats fun and whats realistic, I would always choose fun. And repeating things like Dont like it Dont play it just shows ignorancy.

[Megad00mer]

I think the spikes and the two daggers might clue some people in that this is a melee class at the character creation screen.

If they're still confused maybe Candyland or Shoots and Ladders is the game for them.

[Warsaw]

I'm to defensive? You just called my ignorant. Kind of sounds like you're to defensive. And Fun and realistic? Dude. For me a story is fun. And having a story that follows the lore for a ritch backround makes it fun! You and your guild should go back to WoW. I hope mythic/ea dosn't put males in. They would just be giving in to idiot people who whine to much. If the general public dosn't like it they don't have to play it. But eh, you know what. Everyone who has whined about it still seems like they would play WAR anyway so why dont you take a stand and go away? Show us how much not having a male class meens to you! Come on! Don't play WAR... wait... no... no you wont go away. :( O well. I can always dream.

[dutch_gamer]

Buddy your too defensive. I know of the Warhammer lore, but im talking about the general gaming public. This isnt just what i think, this is from everyone in my WoW guild and people I talked to at LAN, pretty much everyone ive talked to about it. If your gonna choose between whats fun and whats realistic, I would always choose fun. And repeating things like Dont like it Dont play it just shows ignorancy.

So? Really, what does it matter what the general public will think of when they hear the word "witch"? As you say you know of the Warhammer lore and probably what Witch Elves are about. Potential customers will find out in due time what Witch Elves are about as well. They just need to get used to name and how they play, that is all.

I can understand making an all-female caster class, because theyre a dime a dozen. But making the only assassin/rogue type class in the game sex-specific is going to disappoint ALOT of people in my opinion.

I honestly think that those people will get over it (at least most of them). It is really too bad for those people, but Mythic choose the class for that slot which they think is the best one. It is getting a bit annoying that people are so hung up when it comes to gender specific classes, and act as if it is even worse when it is a Rogueish class and when it is female only. I really think that people are over exaggerating the amount of people that will truly be disappointed by this decision. I think a lot of men AND women will love to play that class. Sure, it may be a lot of "kids", but already prejudging everyone because of that is rather silly. Judge the player by his/her own merits instead of the look of the class.

[AlienOverlord]

If the OP is worried about a class' name not conveying the role they play than Witch Elf is hardly the only one with a problem. Just from the name could you tell the roles of an Ironbreaker and Hammerer? Or a Chosen and Marauder? Either one sounds like they might be either the DPS class or the Tank. 'Chosen' could be the name of a caster class if you didn't know the lore.

I don't think it will be much of an issue, RPG players are used to all sort of funky names for fantasy classes.

"What are you?"
"I'm a Geo-mancer Arcanist Thaumaturge!"

This is one area where RPG players have shown that they can readily adapt.

As for the gender-specific issue, we'll have to see how that plays out once the game is released.

[Thunder_Head]

OP, I suggest you stop ing, because it isn't going to be changed. The Witch Elf stands the same chance of getting a male class, as any of the greenskins stand of getting a female one. 0.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Well they have been using the name Witch Elf for years now so it seems like a good one. Also, female only? Way to make an original topic.

This game is crazy. Following the lore of warhammer to make female only witch elves. The fact that they actually following the lore as precise as they can and don't change it for people who just like to whine is what makes the story so much better for me. Following the lore... what idiots. Also....

"The most savage sect of Khaine worshippers are known as the Brides of Khaine, more commonly called Witch Elves (or Maibd in the Dark Elf language). They are an all-female cult of warrior priestesses."

Also, saying this is bad. Saying gender specific xlasses is bad is retarded. Why? Well, all the hard core lore fans wil be very happy about this and it will make so many more Warhammer TT fans want to play the game. Also, I think everyone who has whined about gender specific classes are still going to play anyway you people just whine to much and then make a new topic about the same topic in many other topics so people can see you whine because why? You like to whine.

And I said it once befor I'll say it again. If you don't like it. Don't play it! Because like I said, in the end the ammount of hard core lore fans will replace people like you.


Actualy, they did mess with the lore in several places they shouldn't
1. They put in Female Dwarfs, yes there are Female Dwarfs but they never leave the holds, and they most defnitly never fight.
2. There are no female Warrior priests, yes there is this one sect but they aren't really warrior priests, they just bash stuff with hammers(no sigmar magic)

Now I have ni problem with these, becuase it gives people options, so I think these are ok bends to the lore, however

When the said Chaos marauder and chosen can't be female, they broke the lore or bent the lore there, if you know Chaos and know the lore you kno what i'm talking about.
The reason people didn't like this was due to the fact that they bent the lore, and took away options.

Now as for the Dark Elves and High Elves, well I think they're dooing a good job.

Now this part is to the OP, look this paticular games lore has been around for 25+ years, they're not going to change it just because of one person who can't stand to see a female only opportunist DPS clas.

[DaddysGirl]

* Edited for Content *

[Thunder_Head]

Daddy, that's the best post I've ever seen. *screenshots*

[Enkmar]

Remember Warhammer is a game with very deep lore. I think the name Witch Elves stems more from their character, lifestyle, devotion, etc, than their "class role". Witch Elves boiling children in cauldrons of blood comes to mind.

[Aaronthethird]

From the Original Poster:

If your gonna choose between whats fun and whats realistic, I would always choose fun.

First off, what makes scantilly clad women who do drugs and kill stuff with daggers not fun?

I know of the Warhammer lore, but im talking about the general gaming public. This isnt just what i think, this is from everyone in my WoW guild and people I talked to at LAN, pretty much everyone ive talked to about it. If your gonna choose between whats fun and whats realistic, I would always choose fun. And repeating things like Dont like it Dont play it just shows ignorancy.

Secondly, I am sorry, but this just an extremely lame argument in general. Just because people who aren't familiar with Warhammer lore won't initially know what a Witch Elf is doesn't mean they are going to go, "Witches should B CASTING... plz stopp uzing those daggggers and killng SOOO MUCH. K THKZ BYE!" unless they are morons. Once they play the game for a bit they'll get the idea and it will be a non issue. I mean, anyone who played WoW and never played any of the Warcraft series wouldn't have known what a Tauren was. By their appearence you would have thought they were a melee race since they were huge bulls/cows, but I never once heard anyone say, "HEY U COW!!! Stopz using all that MAGIX and HEAL'N me! K THNX BYE!" when they saw a Tauren Shaman. People will figure out a game's unique classes and lore as they play.

As far as female only... well... I guess its just me, but I don't really want to see a guy running around in a chain mail bikini. But as for the gender specific part of it, this is my theory as to why each of the gender choices were made:

Dwarf Females: I think they allowed this break in the lore simply because they know, as these type of games go, Dwarfs are usually one of the least played races and they didn't want to give anyone a reason not to play Dwarfs. Adding female Dwarfs simply gives them a better chance of gaining more players and hopefully leveling out their population a bit. Whether female Dwarfs will actually have any effect on population is debatable as I have never met anyone who wants to play one, but at least the option is available.

Female Warrior Priests: somewhat similar to Dwarf Females, in so far as, healers tend to be underplayed, and limiting what could be one of the most popular healers in the game to only males might end up alienating many potential healers. Again, for the sake of population to class ratio balance I think it was a wise choice.

Greenskins only being male: While a similar argument could be made for the Greenskins as for the Dwarfs, due to orcs and goblins not being as popular as the "pretty" races, I think they assumed that Greenskins will typically outnumber the Dwarfs and therefore, will not need the population boost as much. Also, Greenskin females simply do not exist in Warhammer lore, so it would have been an implausable stretch of the lore. Also, Greenskin type females look riduclous and are very rarely played.

Chaos Chosen and Marauders only Male + Dark Elf Witch Elf and possibly another female only DE class (probably the Sorceress) : This one I think a lot of people are looking at backwards. They are assuming that the choice for the Chaos classes being only male was made first, and then the Dark Elf female classes were made to balance them out, whereas I think it probably happened in the opposite order, but due to the order of their unveiling it has confused people. See, I think they looked at it and said, "well, Witch Elf really makes a lot of sense as only Female, and probably Sorceress too, and if they are really sexy that will hopefully draw more people to play the "bad guys," but, if we only make female only classes then people might complain that we are being biased against men. So, in the issue of fairness, lets make 2 male only classes for Choas to balance it out. Chosen and Marauder are the best choices for that."
I think the phrase they used, "we are equal opportunity offenders," or something of the sort basically sums that whole idea up.

Personally, I couldn't care less if there are male or female only classes, I just want whatever they make to be fun, visually interesting and viable. What digital sex organs my avatar has are of little interest to me since I won't using them anyway.

[Warsaw]

Arnt greenskins a-sexual so they arn't male either. Also I think of orcs like super body builders where the females look like men. That seems like the most logical way anyway and because of that if you think of it like that it basically makes it to the point where you could say an orc is a body builder female. Saying they are male is dumb because I know a lot of dudes and aint one of em looks like an orc.

Greenskins have no place in the gender argument! They are a sexual body builders!

[Aaronthethird]

Arnt greenskins a-sexual so they arn't male either. Also I think of orcs like super body builders where the females look like men. That seems like the most logical way anyway and because of that if you think of it like that it basically makes it to the point where you could say an orc is a body builder female. Saying they are male is dumb because I know a lot of dudes and aint one of em looks like an orc.

Greenskins have no place in the gender argument! They are a sexual body builders!

You are correct, however I think they tend to be thought of more as males simply because they do not have breasts and have a more typically male body shape (broad shoulders, narrow hips.) That having been said, they are really more asexual than anything since they reproduce from spores or something of that sort, but I am sure if you held up some of the concept art of the Greenskins from this game and asked 100 people what gender they were 99% would say male.

[checkthis5000]

First off, what makes scantilly clad women who do drugs and kill stuff with daggers not fun?



What he said. Seriously fun. I'll probably roll one just because of the agile escape move. That's going to piss some people off, and man I want to see it happen.

I'm loving how much they're using knockbacks/throwbacks/jumpbacks in the game. From "EEEEK" to "Outta My Way" to that Hammerer ability to "Agile Escape" it's not only going to change how combat behaves on a large scale, it's going to change how it looks.

Seeing people fly back during combat from a Hammerer's swing or get tossed back by a black orc, or seeing a witch elf jump back is going to enhance the look of combat to the nth degree.

Fun Fun Fun you sastards.

[Razor Boy]

From the Original Poster:First off, what makes scantilly clad women who do drugs and kill stuff with daggers not fun?

What digital sex organs my avatar has are of little interest to me since I won't using them anyway.

QFT! Have a cookie! :)

Seriously. There's nothing in the lore that says dwarfs can't be female, it's just that there were zilch female dwarf minis, so people assumed that there are no fighting female dwarfs. Secondly, Chosen and Marauders have a very distinct visual profile. Does anyone want to play an incredibly butch bodybuilder female Chosen or Marauder, because that's what they'd have to look like in order to maintain the visual profile (and remember that the devs said that they want to make the career outlines as visually distinctive as possible)? Unlike female dwarfs, it's right there in the Warhammer Fantasy lore that only women can be witch elves; males that survive the ritual become assassins (thus if there will be an assassin career, it would make sense lore-wise for them to be male only).

This is Warhammer! Love it or we'll stomp ya! :)

[Freax]

For people who cant help but say stop ing and whining im merely pointing out the obvious misconceptions that people will have. Hence why I named the thread "I dont get it". But I guess like Dutch Gamer said, and telling from the anger level in these posts, Witch Elves are catering more to the heavy WAR lore fans. But still, theres gonna have to be some explaining to the average person as to what exactly it does, and we've yet to see the rest of the DE classes so who knows what'll happen.

[Warsaw]

For people who cant help but say stop ing and whining im merely pointing out the obvious misconceptions that people will have. Hence why I named the thread "I dont get it". But I guess like Dutch Gamer said, and telling from the anger level in these posts, Witch Elves are catering more to the heavy WAR lore fans. But still, theres gonna have to be some explaining to the average person as to what exactly it does, and we've yet to see the rest of the DE classes so who knows what'll happen.

"I can understand making an all-female caster class, because theyre a dime a dozen. But making the only assassin/rogue type class in the game sex-specific is going to disappoint ALOT of people in my opinion"

But then you posted that and it was your downfall. should of kept the gender out of it. :P

[Aviator]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but "Witch" is basically equivalent to "Holy" or "Divine" in the Druchii language. Besides Witch Elves, there's also Malekith the Witch King.

Try to separate the word from the stereotypical witch that you see on Halloween decorations.
Secondly, Chosen and Marauders have a very distinct visual profile. Does anyone want to play an incredibly butch bodybuilder female Chosen or Marauder, because that's what they'd have to look like in order to maintain the visual profile (and remember that the devs said that they want to make the career outlines as visually distinctive as possible)?
Fan artwork has proven that female Chosen and Marauders can work without having completely butch characters. For example:

http://img463.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fchosenoo7.jpg
http://img251.imageshack.us/my.php?image=femalechosen2nextun9.jpg
http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chaos01mc3hd4.jpg (this one is official Warhammer art)

[WarMachine]

Buddy your too defensive. I know of the Warhammer lore, but im talking about the general gaming public. This isnt just what i think, this is from everyone in my WoW guild and people I talked to at LAN, pretty much everyone ive talked to about it. If your gonna choose between whats fun and whats realistic, I would always choose fun. And repeating things like Dont like it Dont play it just shows ignorancy.

Well we could always change the name.... Lets go with rogue, and give them males.... Now lets move onto the Chosen, that might give people the impression that this class is better.... Lets go with Warrior. Humm... now lets go with the name of the game.... hum... WarHammer may give people the idea that theirs only hammers and no swords in the game..... Lets call it WarCrafter.....

Lets not touch the lore anymore than they already have, for the sake of the game, please!

[Thoden Firehammer]

For people who cant help but say stop ing and whining im merely pointing out the obvious misconceptions that people will have. Hence why I named the thread "I dont get it". But I guess like Dutch Gamer said, and telling from the anger level in these posts, Witch Elves are catering more to the heavy WAR lore fans. But still, theres gonna have to be some explaining to the average person as to what exactly it does, and we've yet to see the rest of the DE classes so who knows what'll happen.


There are no rogue classes, the Dark Elf With Elf class is the Dark Elf Melee DPS class, each DPS class has one main goal do damage, they all fit this archtype, however they are given spells to make them play differently, however I will agree with you that the Witch Elf is an opportunists DPS class, which means all thoes people who like to go for the most easy kill. They are also very good at entering and especily exiting combat, however I am not sure how Mythic plans on making thier armor, from what it sounds this class may be able to do the MOST DPS but may have the weakest armor and health, which means this class will not survive aginst range classes.

With that clarified i'm now going to point out where you're wrong.

merely pointing out the obvious misconceptions
Sorry but there are none, atleast not for any of us, you seem to be the only one who has a problem with them being named Witch Elf, and being female only.(well I know a few other who have a problem with the dps class being female only, but i'm talking about Witch Elves themselves)

Dutch Gamer said, and telling from the anger level in these posts, Witch Elves are catering more to the heavy WAR lore fans
.... Alright where to begin, this game called Warhammer has been around for 25 years, and so has it's lore. If you try to destroy the lore and ignore the lore, than you destroy and ignore the game it's self.

Witch Elves wern't put in to cater to the Lore fans, they were put in becuase Mythic though they would be the most Iconic class from the Table Top game, for the Dark Elves, I personaly think that this part right here that he typed was out of ignorance, of what exactly warhammer is (not an insult just an asumption)

But still, theres gonna have to be some explaining to the average person as to what exactly it does
They have already told you what this class does, it kills, it kills with madening fury, these women are supposed to be crazy fanatical killers, killing for their god.
And this is what they do in the MMO, they kill, they kill without fear of death, they delight in the suffering of their victims, they do not care if they die, this is what they are, and the DPS Archtype slot best reflects this...

Oh and this part is to Aviator, sorry but that last one is a demonett, and that second picture of a female Chaos Chosen just looks wrong, I prefer this one, it's only photoshoped, so if you mess with the arms legs a little it may look a bit for femenin.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e305/gallt/ChosenImg_041.jpg

[Ilairon]

Regarding the Cult of Khaine and witch elves, "maibd" meaning "Bride of Khaine" is the more common title given to them within dark elf society. Morathi and Hellebron are rivals regarding control of the Cult of Khaine with Morathi controlling it in name, but Hellebron having relatively more support within it. The army books have never really mentioned sorcery, divine or arcane, in the Cult of Khaine, albeit the hags and assassins have a few minor powers that might be construed as magical. That said, BL fiction (not the best source of canon), namely the Malus Darkblade books, have broadened the field, adding divine and ritual magic of Khaine that some acolytes of the Temple know (including males). It will be interesting to see if the next edition army book adds this. The term witch elf could best be ascribed to the age, beauty, and mentality of the witch elves. Mind, most people think of sorcery when they think of a witch, but the word itself also refers to someone who is mean or cruel, a charming or alluring person, and an old person. Witch elves are exceptionally beautiful, viscious, and thanks to the regenerative powers of the Cauldrons of Blood very, very long-lived. Also, it's important to note that there are many sub-cults within the Cult of Khaine, usually based around one of his aspects.

[Loekii]

For people who cant help but say stop ing and whining im merely pointing out the obvious misconceptions that people will have. Hence why I named the thread "I dont get it". But I guess like Dutch Gamer said, and telling from the anger level in these posts, Witch Elves are catering more to the heavy WAR lore fans. But still, theres gonna have to be some explaining to the average person as to what exactly it does, and we've yet to see the rest of the DE classes so who knows what'll happen.

I think DutchGamer stated it pretty well.

'Those that don not know will find out.' --- for the ones that really care.

Basically they are called 'witch elves' because that is what they are called. I really don't think too many gamers are going to be overly concerned with what they are called --- generally.

Just my opinion.

[Aviator]

Oh and this part is to Aviator, sorry but that last one is a demonett, and that second picture of a female Chaos Chosen just looks wrong, I prefer this one, it's only photoshoped, so if you mess with the arms legs a little it may look a bit for femenin.
I'm aware that the last picture is of a Daemonette. However, it does give a basic idea of what a female Marauder might look like.

[Warsaw]

"Sorry but there are none, atleast not for any of us, you seem to be the only one who has a problem with them being named Witch Elf, and being female only.(well I know a few other who have a problem with the dps class being female only, but i'm talking about Witch Elves themselves)"

Holy crap. That would make a decent argument. *gives thoden a cookie* But the way it sounds I think a lot more people have (or pretend to have a problem with so they can whine about it) a problem with just the gender specifics. Aka, NO MALE or female orcs. :P

I'm a bit more inclined to let chosen and marauders have females but I don't know. My only opinion there is they have got to have a reason. I don't know enough lore on them both to argue but then against I don't think I've read any to little lore people have actually posted about them to make a good argument. Maybe some have but it got lost in the whines.

[Rerisen]

There are no rogue classes, the Dark Elf With Elf class is the Dark Elf Melee DPS class, each DPS class has one main goal do damage, they all fit this archtype, however they are given spells to make them play differently, however I will agree with you that the Witch Elf is an opportunists DPS class,

I agree with everything you said there except to quibble with the last sentence. *Every* DPS melee class should be opportunistic in my opinion because it is simply the best strategy. If you are a Choppa, Witch Hunter, or Witch Elf regardless, why would you keep banging on a tank if you have a chance to quickly go for a wounded nuker or healer nearby? Why would you go for a tank if you could take out any other wounded character nearby much faster?

So while I would agree they are being portrayed as more opportunistic by many keen to the idea of stuffing their square peg into a round (rogue) hole, and even the devs are playing up that angle but probably more just to try and to differentiate them, but in practice I don't see them playing that much different at all from any other Melee DPS in the game in what they are trying to accomplish on the battlefield.

[Selandri]

Few quick comments: That last picture being a Daemonette is debatable. It has wings, for one thing, and the Chaos Gods specific mutations can have the character looking like a Daemonette. ( In fact they have their face torn off, them replaced with the Daemonettes, which they have to hold on ( Nailing it to the skull is my favourite ), though it bleeds continually around the edges. ))

So while it probably is intended as a Daemonette, or at least a character approaching Daemonhood, it is valid artwork for the supposition of a female Chosen / Marauders physical looks.

Note: Chaos Champions do not necessarily have to be muscular killing machines. This is Chaos. It's like being a super hero. Nobody says "Oh Wonder Woman is a girl, she can't kick butt", because she has like, special stuff. So do Chaos champions. Yada yada yada. The silhouette argument is the only valid reason for not having female Chosen / Marauders, since if done well it would mean a different silhouette which could end up being too similar to other classes silhouettes.

Secondly, the no female Priests of Sigmar: Mordheim happened five hundred years ago. The Sisters of Sigmar were wiped out then, they have no connection to current lore and from what I've read the Church accepts men and women in the current timeline.

I could dig up quotes but they get ignored anyway so, take my word for it. :)

[Thoden Firehammer]

Sel about this sisters of sigmar, i'd like to remind you that they arn't warrior priests, just worshipers of sigmar.

They could not use any warrior priest abilties...

[Selandri]

I know, Thoden, but they're all dead. They were a subcult in Mordheim, and Mordheim was destroyed five hundred years ago in Warhammer timeline :) The current WFRP supplements don't list any gender restriction in the Warrior Priest info, even referring to the head of the Cult of Sigmar as "His or her".

[Thoden Firehammer]

I know, Thoden, but they're all dead. They were a subcult in Mordheim, and Mordheim was destroyed five hundred years ago in Warhammer timeline :) The current WFRP supplements don't list any gender restriction in the Warrior Priest info, even referring to the head of the Cult of Sigmar as "His or her".

True, but the head of the cult doesn't have to be a warrior priest if I remember... just has to be a memeber.


And I guess GW is trying to protect their immage or something, I duno..

[BurninElf]

From the rumours I was told Corsairs were most likely going to be the DE dps class, so when I first heard Witchelf i totally pictured a caster class lol.

The all-female thing, I was kind of hoping to avoid that with this game, multitudes of guys running around with chick characters in skimpy outfits :?. But then i heard there basing an entire class on it. Although cool as they are, I have a feeling its eventually gonna turn into an eyesore. So those of you who keep preaching the lore on here dont say everyone understands because thats just putting words in other peoples mouths.

[Warsaw]

Again, the only reason it would ever turn into only men playing witch elves is because everyone else is ing to much to play them. FFS STOP SAYING YOU KNOW WHO WILL PLAY THE CLASS! YOU DONT KNOW! Isnt their a higher percenage of men playing video games anyway? I'm not sure on the polls of that but I'm pretty sure its true so you can say more men will play dwarves then females. More men will play high elves then females. ZOMG! ZOMG!! ZOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111

IVE GOT TEH PSYCICICICIC POWAS!!!

WAAGGH!!!! TROLL WAAGH!!!

[Hatemonger]

Guys, from a VISUAL aspect, based solely on the concept art...

I'm just not buying that these chicks can out damage those awesome-looking Swordmasters.

[Rerisen]

Guys, from a VISUAL aspect, based solely on the concept art...

I'm just not buying that these chicks can out damage those awesome-looking Swordmasters.

But remember we cant think in 'earth' terms here. These chicks have been brought up to love slaughter and trained to fight since they were girls. Once they take their toxins and get into a frenzy they don't feel or don't care about pain. Also, as they strike you, poison from their blades is flowing into your veins, causing excruciating pain, slowing you down, dulling your senses, etc. Their lack of relative armor and duel wielding also allows them to attack many more times than a regular warrior can strike. And they don't get tired so long as they are worked themselves into their fanatical state. I think the case for them as dangerous foes is not too hard.

[Moonbane]

I know, Thoden, but they're all dead. They were a subcult in Mordheim, and Mordheim was destroyed five hundred years ago in Warhammer timeline :) The current WFRP supplements don't list any gender restriction in the Warrior Priest info, even referring to the head of the Cult of Sigmar as "His or her".


The Sisters of Sigmar, were whiped out along with Mordheim, 500 years ago to the current Warhammer timeline, this is true. But i must admit that when i saw Mordheim on the map during the trailer, i had a shiver running down my spine, because Mordheim shouldnt be there at all, it was stricken from imperial records and maps 300 years ago (can't remember by whom).

Hm, back on topic.

I don't see any problem with witch elves being gender specific, for two obvious reasons, the first ofcourse is Warhammer lore, males in the temple of Khaine is trained as assasins and second: Elves are feminin enough as it is, dressing a guy up in a chain bikini wouldnt do much to improve this at all ;)

Oh... and the name Witch Elf is here to stay so get used to it, because its not going to change for the masses who don't know the lore.

[Fr0]

I guess you don't play WH.
A little insight;
http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/miniature-gallery/9/

They're going to be ridiculous melee dps, relying on strategic positioning for specific attacks, and will have access to poisons. Much like they do in WHFB. They're going to be hot as hell. They aren't supposed to be rogues, if you played WoW think of them as rogues without stealth, in Berserker stance.

[Lorik]

Arguing, Internet, Forums, etc -

[Xiara]

Well, there are 2 crowds to please: Warhammer Fanatics, and the General Masses. I think Mythic is doing a great job of appeasing both sides. Witch Elves are female only in WH lore....who would want to run around as a male "Witch Elf" anyways? Sounds like a wuss, and men aren't witches. The class name would've had to have been changed, and that would've caused even more of an uproar.

I like the fact that they are "bending" lore in some areas, and sticking to it strictly in others. Yes, fans of dark elf lore are happy witch elves are female only....whereas dwarf fans may hate the fact that there are females.......either way is it really a big deal if things get changed? Not everyone can be pleased.

[BurninElf]

I just hope they dont try to tac on crossbow repeaters to Witchelves if Sorcerers are gonna be DE ranged dps :( would still make more sense then on Black Guards, like some people have been saying.

[Vikingkingq]

Sel about this sisters of sigmar, i'd like to remind you that they arn't warrior priests, just worshipers of sigmar.

They could not use any warrior priest abilties...

Yes they could. Check your Mordheim p. 82-84.

- Prayers of Sigmar.
- Sigmarite warhammers.
- Sign and Protection of Sigmar special abilities.

[HornedToad10]

Guys, from a VISUAL aspect, based solely on the concept art...

I'm just not buying that these chicks can out damage those awesome-looking Swordmasters.

Sure they can. They are Dark Elves. Swordmasters are members of the panzy race...

Key difference.

[Exion]

I'll agree that the name witch can be confusing but I think people should research a class enough to know what it does before playing one. Also them being limited to female isn't really that bad, it didn't stop people from playing amazon/sorceress/assassin in Diablo 2.

[Freax]

*Edited for offtopicness.

[Dukha]

Guys, from a VISUAL aspect, based solely on the concept art...

I'm just not buying that these chicks can out damage those awesome-looking Swordmasters.
What, that a huge twohanded sword cant outdamage a tiny dagger? I know what replies I can expect from this but never mind (comparing a fantasy game with reality and all that)... And I know you said based on the concept art but hey, I'm at work and I'm bored :D So dont take it personally please.

Most of what you need to poke at to kill someone pretty much instantly are more or less skindeep. Just an example at random, you only need to get the blade a few centimeters into someones abdomen to open up the abdominal aorta, causing basically instant death. And that would be much easier to accomplish with a sharp dagger than a sharp sword, asuming the respective wielders are competent in the use of the weapons. Thats the earthly aspect. You cant sever limbs with a dagger but you sure as hell can kill with em just as efficiently as any sword.

Moving on to the unearthly aspect. What I know about lore is what I have read on this forum, thus my image of the Witchelf is the following. A crazy fanatic whom consider killing in combat to be an act of worship and has trained for and practiced this form of worship since childhood. Add to this that she fights drugged with what probably makes PCP seem like sneezing powder and with magical poisons on her weapons. Oh, and she's not human, so we have to add elven grace and mentality into it as well. If you take this view then my gosh, doesn't the whole "she's just a little girl" just melt away like an icecube placed in a open fire?

[WarMachine]

What, that a huge twohanded sword cant outdamage a tiny dagger? I know what replies I can expect from this but never mind (comparing a fantasy game with reality and all that)... And I know you said based on the concept art but hey, I'm at work and I'm bored :D So dont take it personally please.

Most of what you need to poke at to kill someone pretty much instantly are more or less skindeep. Just an example at random, you only need to get the blade a few centimeters into someones abdomen to open up the abdominal aorta, causing basically instant death. And that would be much easier to accomplish with a sharp dagger than a sharp sword, asuming the respective wielders are competent in the use of the weapons. Thats the earthly aspect. You cant sever limbs with a dagger but you sure as hell can kill with em just as efficiently as any sword.

Moving on to the unearthly aspect. What I know about lore is what I have read on this forum, thus my image of the Witchelf is the following. A crazy fanatic whom consider killing in combat to be an act of worship and has trained for and practiced this form of worship since childhood. Add to this that she fights drugged with what probably makes PCP seem like sneezing powder and with magical poisons on her weapons. Oh, and she's not human, so we have to add elven grace and mentality into it as well. If you take this view then my gosh, doesn't the whole "she's just a little girl" just melt away like an icecube placed in a open fire?
Well, speaking lore wise, alot of swordmasters where taining with their swords way before the elves split. Their skill is all in their sword. In a face to face battle with a WE, the SM would kill her be fore she even got close. The SM is just as graceful if not more, becuase the HE SMs don't give into their emotions like the DEs, and makes them more in control in a battle.

There is no douting that a dagger can be an instrament of death, in the right hands, any thing can be deadly. Game wise the WE does more damage because thats what she's been balanced for. But lore wise a SM would out damage a WE.

[spirit]

True, but the head of the cult doesn't have to be a warrior priest if I remember... just has to be a memeber.


And I guess GW is trying to protect their immage or something, I duno..



Say it with me boys and girls!


Warhammer. Is. Batman.


Need I say more?

[Gemini]

I'd also like to point out Witch Elves don't wield "little tiny daggers." Their knives are actually quite large, and almost swordlike, from all the images of I've seen.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Lore wise Witch Elves wield short swords.

They are fanatical and their swords are razor sharp and designed for slicing....

Fanatical chick with razor sharp blade has never been a good combination >.>

[Dukha]

Well, speaking lore wise, alot of swordmasters where taining with their swords way before the elves split. Their skill is all in their sword. In a face to face battle with a WE, the SM would kill her be fore she even got close. The SM is just as graceful if not more, becuase the HE SMs don't give into their emotions like the DEs, and makes them more in control in a battle.

There is no douting that a dagger can be an instrament of death, in the right hands, any thing can be deadly. Game wise the WE does more damage because thats what she's been balanced for. But lore wise a SM would out damage a WE.

Fair enough, thats a good point :)

Warning: I am making asumptions on lore both what it contains and how it is defined. Feel free to challenge or correct me on this but dont be offended as that is not my intention :smile:

I would claim that lorewise you will need much more realism than in an MMO (and by lore I mean background stories and suchlike) because lore is a depiction of characters lives and in those it's not realistic having people whack eachother with sharp swords over and over again before someone dies... And lorewise a swordmaster will deliver blows with such skill and grace that each move will incapacitate or kill the enemy. The same goes for the witchelf (well, not the gracepart obiously) due to the fact that human or humanlike forms tends to die when sharp pieces of metal is poked trough it, no matter if the piece in question is wielded with the utmost finesse or pure berserker rage. So to transform the lore to the MMO you would in my opinion end up with basically the same DPS for these classes anyways. What sets the swordmaster apart would be his artistry with his chosen weapon wich I'm guessing is best translated into defensive moves and other tricks, not just raw damage. You can after all not do that much more with a stroke then kill someone. The witchelf will, I asume have several abilities that deal nothing but damage and the rest will be aimed at buffing her to do even more damage. The swordmaster with have similar moves but with the addition that the rest of his abilities are defensive tricks, crowd controll etc performed trough his sword. And in the lore, isnt the reason why he cuts down a witch elf pretty much imediatly his superiour controll of his weapon, not how hard he swings it?

Edit: Added a quote of the post I had in mind seeing as this thread filled out faster than expected (man, dont you people ever sleep! ;)) Also did some finetuning with grammar, typos and general context.

[Dukha]

I'd also like to point out Witch Elves don't wield "little tiny daggers." Their knives are actually quite large, and almost swordlike, from all the images of I've seen.
If ya mean my post where I used the term "tiny daggers" that was a bit sarcastic ;) I've seen a few pictures to and I agree, "tiny" is the wrong word hehe.

[Prep]

Even though it is in the Warhammer lore, the all-female thing for the only rogue type on destruction is a bad direction and going to disappoint alot of people in my opinion, especially if you are trying to avoid the multitudes of guys running around as chicks in tight leather spandex. Yes Destruction does need more chick classes, but I want WAR not a Rocky horror picture... hopefully it doesnt become an eyesore :(.

Also "Witch" is a weird name for an assassin/rogue type class. One would think that Witch's deal with magic, curses and hexes, Voodoo etc. So if your new to Warhammer your going to be confused about what they are. Swordmaster people know exactly what it is you do, Unless they make Swordmaster's shoot fireballs and icebolts.

Agreed.

Not to mention the class will ultimately pull in primarily male teens and basement dwellers; having another female dps class choice in the form of female marauders would have been preferable.

Instead we get:

100% of marauders looking about the same.
100% of witch elves looking about the same.
100% of choppas looking about the same.

Visual variety ftl.

Then compound that with:

100% of Chosen looking about the same.
100% of Black orcs looking about the same.
100% of squig hearders looking about the same.
100% of shaman looking about the same.


So far destruction only has ONE confirmed male/female class; Zealot. This makes for a very visually dull experience on the destruction side, even with a robust character feature set of options.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Agreed.

Not to mention the class will ultimately pull in primarily male teens and basement dwellers; having another female dps class choice in the form of female marauders would have been preferable.

Instead we get:

100% of marauders looking about the same.
100% of witch elves looking about the same.
100% of choppas looking about the same.

Visual variety ftl.

Then compound that with:

100% of Chosen looking about the same.
100% of Black orcs looking about the same.
100% of squig hearders looking about the same.
100% of shaman looking about the same.


So far destruction only has ONE confirmed male/female class; Zealot. This makes for a very visually dull experience on the destruction side, even with a robust character feature set of options.

The trophy system and armor dye system will stop the looking "the same" part...

[Prep]

The trophy system and armor dye system will stop the looking "the same" part...

Did you miss the "about" part?

Comparing to a male/female class/race combo which will have no less than twice the visual options, I'd say "about" is pretty damn accurate.

[Kaid]

Black Gaurd and Magus are also female and male btw.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Did you miss the "about" part?

Comparing to a male/female class/race combo which will have no less than twice the visual options, I'd say "about" is pretty damn accurate.


..... How would it add twice the visual options...

I myself am an advicate of adding in female models for the Chaos classes, but I personaly don't see your point.

Yes if you add in the female options that will give you just ONE more thing to make you different than say half or most everyone else...

But in no way does it mutiply your options by 2

[Prep]

..... How would it add twice the visual options...

I myself am an advicate of adding in female models for the Chaos classes, but I personaly don't see your point.

Yes if you add in the female options that will give you just ONE more thing to make you different than say half or most everyone else...

But in no way does it mutiply your options by 2


Really?

You don't see how having 100 options to change face/hair ect on a male model is equal to 100 options and having a 100 options on a female model is another 100 options. 100 X 2 = 200 giving you no less than twice the options of a gender specific class.

Really?

[Thoden Firehammer]

Really?

You don't see how having 100 options to change face/hair ect on a male model is equal to 100 options and having a 100 options on a female model is another 100 options. 100 X 2 = 200 giving you no less than twice the options of a gender specific class.

Really?


Thoes are options that you only get when first making your character, so I always pushed them in with the character option it's self.

[Rerisen]

Mythic does have a little bit of a conflict in that the design approach calls for silhouetting or easily identifiable classes on the battlefield at quite a distance. But then within that basic outline of a character, they have to build innumerable smaller differences so that each player is happy with his unique look and doesn't just look like one foot soldier among a bunch of clones.

I never got fully on board with what they were really trying to achieve with the silhouetting goal. Its just never been a problem in past mmo's where I got confused about which class I was fighting. Even if some were female, its not like a female paladin or something was so different than the male that you confused them for something else. Especially, when you consider in WAR each race only has 4 different classes, there shouldn't really be a problem with figuring out who you are fighting. But presumably they just want players to look very 'iconic' in their roles.

[Xurré]

You don't see how having 100 options to change face/hair ect on a male model is equal to 100 options and having a 100 options on a female model is another 100 options. 100 X 2 = 200 giving you no less than twice the options of a gender specific class.
If there are 100 options for male models now then, if they'd implement two genders there'd probably be 50 options for each gender.

The resources to create the options don't change.


- Xurré

[Grimfell Gromgear]

Mythic does have a little bit of a conflict in that the design approach calls for silhouetting or easily identifiable classes on the battlefield at quite a distance. But then within that basic outline of a character, they have to build innumerable smaller differences so that each player is happy with his unique look and doesn't just look like one foot soldier among a bunch of clones.

I never got fully on board with what they were really trying to achieve with the silhouetting goal. Its just never been a problem in past mmo's where I got confused about which class I was fighting. Even if some were female, its not like a female paladin or something was so different than the male that you confused them for something else. Especially, when you consider in WAR each race only has 4 different classes, there shouldn't really be a problem with figuring out who you are fighting. But presumably they just want players to look very 'iconic' in their roles.

I understand entirely what they're going for.

Round up some screenshots of late game WoW characters and put them in a large pile, than ask someone who's never played WoW before to split them up into various classes.

How much do you want to bet they won't be able to tell paladins from warriors, or even rogues sometimes, and how many warlocks (if there pets aren't out), will be in the same pool as priests and mages. I mean, while playing the game you learn to tell people apart by recognizing spell effects and some of the gear, but it's not like it's intuitive.

[Rerisen]

I understand entirely what they're going for.

Round up some screenshots of late game WoW characters and put them in a large pile, than ask someone who's never played WoW before to split them up into various classes.

How much do you want to bet they won't be able to tell paladins from warriors, or even rogues sometimes, and how many warlocks (if there pets aren't out), will be in the same pool as priests and mages. I mean, while playing the game you learn to tell people apart by recognizing spell effects and some of the gear, but it's not like it's intuitive.

I don't know Grim, I think you are assuming people are all knowledgeable in Warhammer. I doubt people who don't know WH armies would really be able to tell the difference between a Choppa and a Black Orc from a screenshot. They might think its just the same warrior class with different weapons. Same thing with Ironbreakers and Hammerers. I mean *we* know they are identified by the fact that "Hammerers use Hammers!" but most noobs to the game will not have watched Paul Barnett and won't know that weapon = class to a large degree in WAR. They just know that they are seeing two big armored dudes in melee choosing different weapons.

As you get higher in Rank, the unique class armor looks will distinguish people more. And of course in wow two casters could even use the exact same gear (mage using warlock gear) so WAR classes won't ever look as similar as that, but still my point stands. I don't think it was necessary to deny female classes based on the silhouetting thing or because females wouldn't look like females in big Chosen armor. I'm still not happy about the Magus's being restricted to staff only as well, since its contrary to the lore and we have many examples of Chaos Sorcerers in lore and artwork wielding swords and other weapons. Just don't like cutting down on a player's options for what is largely trivial reasons. A player is most concerned with his own individual look and choices, far more than wanting to concede limits on those things just so he can more easily identify opponents. Which like I said, wouldn't be a issue anyway once you played the game a few weeks and knew what to look for.

[Xurré]

I mean *we* know they are identified by the fact that "Hammerers use Hammers!" but most noobs to the game will not have watched Paul Barnett and won't know that weapon = class to a large degree in WAR.
Hmmm...

Maybe instead of the usual pre-rendered opening cinematic WAR should have a video of Paul explaining all the classes. That way there should be no doubt even before tehy get to choose their class to play. ;)


- Xurré

[Thoden Firehammer]

Hmmm...

Maybe instead of the usual pre-rendered opening cinematic WAR should have a video of Paul explaining all the classes. That way there should be no doubt even before tehy get to choose their class to play. ;)


- Xurré


Thoden votes for this...

[Selandri]

They'd have to make it unskippable. Is that a word? Who cares.

I hate this whole myth of 'Boobs = basement dwellers and male teens'. Not that I am either, but then I'm not homosexual but stand up for the rights of all. Yada yada yada, quit yer ramblin, I know, hush.

I want to play a witch elf. I am not a male teenager nor am I living in a basement. I love Witch Elves. I have since I first got into Warhammer when I was but a snotling. These days I'm at least a squig. Who cares if that makes no sense, it's all mushrooms in the end.

Witch Elves = lore appropriate, intensely 'fitting', gorgeous melee DPS class. Corsairs = Dark Elf pirates. With snazzy cloaks. Therefore Witch Elves > all. EVEN DWARFS.

Notice the F. No ve. Do ye hear me!? NO VE!

Sleep may be an option.

Witch Elves will hopefully be done correctly and inspire some folks to actually find out more about the class. One would assume Games Workshop is working with that, hoping that folks who play WHO will maybe take a look at the real Warhammer. Or WFRP which is superior to everything. Cause I can play a Khornate Chosen. And kill stuff.

For the Blood God. Fun, too.

Beautiful picture in Liber Chaotica which has some sort of sex appeal, but it's kinda a masochistic sex appeal. Kinda like, would I like to get with this girl if it meant giving up my soul and probably my flesh, inch by inch to a red hot knife?

Kinda like Xurre.

In both cases I say yes! Or maybe. Or I need to go read my WFRP books again. They calm me.

Love.

Edit: Yes the Liber Chaotica pic has boobs and thighs and all the yummy jiggly bits, but it's also got an extremely disturbing expression and the kind of hint of a tiger before it pounces. It's scary. Sexy, but scary. That's a Witch Elf. A tiger in a bikini dual wielding short swords. Hot.

Edit Two: I do not know why a tiger would require shortswords, it just did, I did not have textual relations with that donkey.

[Xurré]

Ah, Selandri, it warms my heart (one of them anyway. I’ve got a collection, you see, most of them are even still somewhat fresh. That one there belonged to a dwarf Slayer, though that was a bit like shooting fish in a barrel I’m fairly certain he wasn’t quite happy with the way he departed with it in the end. And that one belonged to an asur noblewoman who… ahum :oops: ).

Eh, where was I before I got side-tracked. Oh yes. That was a nice read, Selandri. :mrgreen:


- Xurré

[Magnificent]

Even though it is in the Warhammer lore, the all-female thing for the only rogue type on destruction is a bad direction and going to disappoint alot of people in my opinion, especially if you are trying to avoid the multitudes of guys running around as chicks in tight leather spandex. Yes Destruction does need more chick classes, but I want WAR not a Rocky horror picture... hopefully it doesnt become an eyesore :(.

Also "Witch" is a weird name for an assassin/rogue type class. One would think that Witch's deal with magic, curses and hexes, Voodoo etc. So if your new to Warhammer your going to be confused about what they are. Swordmaster people know exactly what it is you do, Unless they make Swordmaster's shoot fireballs and icebolts.

Witch Elfs are not assassin/rogue types. They don't have stealth, subtlety, or sneak abilities. They don't do it from behind. Its like me saying Apple Juice tastes just like Milk. It clearly does not. They have entirely different distinct flavors.

[Kaid]

He that knoweth not apple juice and milk will not knoweth how thoust taste.

Theres some sage knowledge for ya ;)

[Freax]

Witch Elfs are not assassin/rogue types. They don't have stealth, subtlety, or sneak abilities. They don't do it from behind. Its like me saying Apple Juice tastes just like Milk. It clearly does not. They have entirely different distinct flavors.Okay, but even Paul himself has said on lepzig podcast that Witchelves are the closest thing to WoW rogues in the game. So im going off of that.

[Vortex]

Okay, but even Paul himself has said on lepzig podcast that Witchelves are the closest thing to WoW rogues in the game. So im going off of that.

My PC is also the closest thing to a spaceship that I have...;)

[Thoden Firehammer]

My PC is also the closest thing to a spaceship that I have...;)


Vortex is right, Thoden has spoken!!

[WarMachine]

Okay, but even Paul himself has said on lepzig podcast that Witchelves are the closest thing to WoW rogues in the game. So im going off of that.
He never said "WoW rogues" he just said "rouges", DoAC had rogues (they were not the same as a WoW rouge). Now he also said "closes to" that still don't make them rogues, just the closes thing to them ingame. Like one of the above posters said "my computer is the closes thing to a spaceship" that doesn't make it a spaceship.

[Souls512]

Witch Elf VS WoW Rogue

Are they the same? If by "same" you are refering to the following then yes.
1) Are meant to be fast in hit hard fast out DPS class
2) The both use sharp pointy objects to do the aforementioned DPS
3) Have poisons at their disposal
4) Have positional attacks
5) Have fast ways to "escape" combat

Yeah they look pretty similar. Kind of like a Mini is the same car as a Miata.
1) Small
2) Little trunk (before you put down the Mini's back seats)
3) Good gas millage
4) Sporty car.

But I tell ya Driving a Miata and Driving a Mini are two different worlds.

Saying that the Witch Elf and WoW rogue are the same well yes they are very similar in appearance but play wise you will notice the differences.

As for the "Female only" thing. One Games Workshops big things with WAR is that it can only deviate from THEIR lore by so much. Mythic has to clear everything with GW. That was a stipulation of the license agreement.

GW did this because they don't just want WAR to be some "MMO" they wanted it to be WARHAMMER in all its ICONIC glory. GW is a very successfully company and had hte money to back up that they aren't letting Mythic build a game to cater to the masses. They are MAKING them create WAR to be the ICONIC piece of work they desire. With EA backing Mythic on this that makes it all possible as they have the money to be idealistic and make it the way GW believes it should be made.

Obviously Mythic has made some decisions that deviate from the lore but only because they believed they were good decisions and GW agreed enough to let them happen.

Not saying its perfect, but its going to be what it is advertised as an ICONIC WARHAMMER game.

FYI: I am not a warhammer lore guy as I had never looked at anything warhammer related till I heard about this game. I still haven't read any of the lore and I am having no issues with the majority of how the game is working out. Just my opinion there but i think they are doing an excellent job.

[Freax]

Cmon guys, you know what I mean. Stop trying to act like smartasses for atleast 1 thread on the forums ;)

[Souls512]

Cmon guys, you know what I mean. Stop trying to act like smartasses for atleast 1 thread on the forums ;)

Yes we know what you mean, and no we are not being smart asses. We are explaining why you are incorrect on your view of the game.

[Freax]

What do you mean? Your post is actually constructive, I agree they are similar because of all the points you posted up...



Are they the same? If by "same" you are refering to the following then yes.
1) Are meant to be fast in hit hard fast out DPS class
2) The both use sharp pointy objects to do the aforementioned DPS
3) Have poisons at their disposal
4) Have positional attacks
5) Have fast ways to "escape" combat

Yeah they look pretty similar. Kind of like a Mini is the same car as a Miata.
1) Small
2) Little trunk (before you put down the Mini's back seats)
3) Good gas millage
4) Sporty car.

But I tell ya Driving a Miata and Driving a Mini are two different worlds.

Saying that the Witch Elf and WoW rogue are the same well yes they are very similar in appearance but play wise you will notice the differences.

But I did not say Witchelf and Rogues are EXACT carbon copies of each other, now did I? Somehow you people have that stuck in your heads. But you compare a Miata to a line up of a sports car, motorbike, humvee and a minivan.... Obviously the sports car is going to be closest match, right? Get it?

[WarMachine]

What do you mean? Your post is actually constructive, I agree they are similar because of all the points you posted up...



But I did not say Witchelf and Rogues are EXACT carbon copies of each other, now did I? Somehow you people have that stuck in your heads. But you compare a Miata to a line up of a sports car, motorbike, humvee and a minivan.... Obviously the sports car is going to be closest match, right? Get it?
Actually, last I checked, the SCCA placed the the Mini and the MazdaSpeed MX-5 (miata) in the same racing catagory, so the comparison is spot on. All they are saying is that you can find simularites in all cars (or mmo classes) in the end, that doesn't make the even close to the same, even if they fall under the same catagory. You took his post as a sarcastic joke, he was only trying to get a point across with an example.

[Dracius]

Yes we know what you mean, and no we are not being smart asses. We are explaining why you are incorrect on your view of the game.
Arn't people allowed to have what ever views they want? Isn't a view an opinion?

Is there such a thing as an "incorrect opinion" or "incorrect view"?

[Feigro]

Is there such a thing as an "incorrect opinion" or "incorrect view"?

Yes. The only reason opinions are often given leeway is because by admitting it's merely an opinion you're essentially admitting that your evidence in believing whatever it is, may be insufficient.

Essentially, you're saying, "I believe this, though I don't really have much proof" or, " I believe this, buy I may be wrong".

The widely accepted assumption that opinions can't be wrong is false. The fact of the matter is whether the opinion is wrong or not isn't the point, the person believes it anyway, which in effect... is what makes it their opinion.

[Xurré]

Is there such a thing as an "incorrect opinion" or "incorrect view"?
In my opinion... yes. :p


- Xurré

[Dracius]

Yes. The only reason opinions are often given leeway is because by admitting it's merely an opinion you're essentially admitting that your evidence in believing whatever it is, may be insufficient.

Essentially, you're saying, "I believe this, though I don't really have much proof" or, " I believe this, buy I may be wrong".

The widely accepted assumption that opinions can't be wrong is false. The fact of the matter is whether the opinion is wrong or not isn't the point, the person believes it anyway, which in effect... is what makes it their opinion.

Well I'd have to disagree then, because in opinion, you can't tell someone how they view something is wrong.

The only way to have an incorrect opinion, is if you give an opinion that's not yours. If I give my opinion on something, then it's correct in being my opinion. It's not a fact, it's just a view.


1.a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2.a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.


People are allowed to have what ever opinions they want, and you can't tell them they arn't allowed to have those opinions or those opinions are wrong. You can disagree, but to say the way someone views something is wrong, has no grounds for proof. If I view everything as red, who are you to tell me that's wrong? If I see red, that's my view, that's how I see things, it's not wrong, it's just how I see things.

If I view you as a stunty lil waste of dwarf flesh, that doesn't mean it's wrong, and it may not be a fact, but that's how I view it. Diagree all you want, but that's just your opinion. ;)

That's what forums are all about, after all.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Arn't people allowed to have what ever views they want? Isn't a view an opinion?

Is there such a thing as an "incorrect opinion" or "incorrect view"?


Most definitly

Example "I'm my opinion the sky is red"

"In my opinion Dwarfs are steam punk"

"In my opinion High Elves are flower picking sisies" ... ok scratch that last one, it's correct :mrgreen:

[Feigro]

Well I'd have to disagree then, because in opinion, you can't tell someone how they view something is wrong.

But their opinion can still be false. An opinion is merely an affirmation of a weak argument. You can either say, "I know X" or, it "It is my opinion, X".

Opinion

A belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
A personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof.
A personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty.
Message expressing a belief about something; the expression of a belief that is held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof.


If I view everything as red, who are you to tell me that's wrong? If I see red, that's my view, that's how I see things, it's not wrong, it's just how I see things.

That's what you believe, but you're mixing up two important parts of your statement;

-It may be correct that you see everything as red.
-It is wrong that everything is red.

They're two different propositions. If you're expressing your opinion as any form of support that everything is red, then it's false. If you're just letting everyone know you see everything as red, then you're correct.

Opinions are merely the weakest form of an argument. If Arguments can be true and false, then opinions can be true and false.

(This is also off topic, so I won't continue the discussion any further. Feel free to PM me or make another thread.)

[Dracius]

-It may be correct that you see everything as red.
-It is wrong that everything is red.

They're two different propositions. If you're expressing your opinion as any form of support that everything is red, then you're wrong. If you're just letting everyone know you see everything as red, then you're correct.

Opinions can be both right and wrong. The thing is, as I said, they're incredibly weak arguments so unless extensive work (in most cases) by both parties is done to detirmine the validity and truth of the reasons of the opinion, then it can't be detirmined. Therefore people usually hide behind, "It's my opinion" to prevent explaining their arguments.

Opinions are merely the weakest form of an argument. If Arguments can be true and false, then opinions can be true and false. The thing is, due to the very nature of the opinion, which is basically to ignore universal definition, opinions can't be proven to be true or false. Doesn't change the fact that the propositon they're expressing is indeed either true or false. It's basic logic.

(This is also off topic, so I won't continue the discussion any further. Feel free to PM me or make another thread.)
You're right, this is off topic.
But it started because someone told Freax he has an "incorrect view".
If you're just letting everyone know you see everything as red, then you're correct.The OP has his own view of what a "witch elf" is, and like I said, there is no such thing as an "incorrect view". Since most of the responses have been about trying to change his view, I felt the need to post something.
He can view a witch elf however he wants, doesn't mean it's what a witch elf really is, it's just how he views them. Don't try to tell someone who's color blind that they're seeing blue, when they're really seeing red.

Going off of what is "right" or "wrong" though, wrong is usually just a matter of common opinion, and the view he's expressing is more common. It's the view of your typical WoW player, if not your typical player in general.

Instead of wasting time trying to tell someone they have an incorrect view, spend more time showing them what they don't see, then their view might change. However, there will never be a "right" or "wrong" view, since part of life, is being able to view things how we want, so that we can enjoy what we see.

Comes down to just a matter of semantics, but hopefully people might understand a little better what the OP was trying to say.

[Feigro]

Actually, I take back my stance. I was reading "wrong" and interpreting it as "false". Which is nothing short of my own fault.

An opinion can't be wrong, per se.

An opinion can certainly be false.

Everything I said still holds true, it's just irrelevent to the subject. I was arguing about monkeys when you guys were talking about gorillas.

[Gemini]

What does all this have to do with witch elves?

[Vankador]

Basically Witch Elves are an excuse to playangina.

No more "If you're a male playing a female character, you're either a perv or are sexually confused" Now they can counter with a "Not my fault Mythic made the class I wanted to play female only."

Also, another postive point will be that there will be much less people /whistling and googling over the female WEs because they'll know for sure that most of them are really males anyway.

[Selandri]

Most definitly

Example "I'm my opinion the sky is red"

"In my opinion Dwarfs are steam punk"

"In my opinion High Elves are flower picking sisies" ... ok scratch that last one, it's correct :mrgreen:

Did you ever see the Squats? They were basically angry dwarf bikers. It was awesome. I miss those little stunties.

I'm going to refer to the men playing male characters as wanting to play manenis from now on. Cause apparently MMOers miss the end of their hobby, the whole RPG bit. Or they're just idiots, which wouldn't surprise me.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Did you ever see the Squats? They were basically angry dwarf bikers. It was awesome. I miss those little stunties.

I'm going to refer to the men playing male characters as wanting to play manenis from now on. Cause apparently MMOers miss the end of their hobby, the whole RPG bit. Or they're just idiots, which wouldn't surprise me.


Actualy no, I was not able to see squats, but I heard of them and I liked them, however they're not warhammer fantasy :P

Now you lost me on the second part of your rant...

[Selandri]

Wasn't a rant, was merely me chatting away as I do.

And it was a response to one persons comment. I get tired of the whole 'Mangina' 'sexually confused' crap.

I loved the Squats. Pity they Tyranided them. Nothing cooler than dwarfs on big chunky Harleys. Oh, with big chunky guns, too.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Wasn't a rant, was merely me chatting away as I do.

And it was a response to one persons comment. I get tired of the whole 'Mangina' 'sexually confused' crap.

I loved the Squats. Pity they Tyranided them. Nothing cooler than dwarfs on big chunky Harleys. Oh, with big chunky guns, too.


I liked the idea of the Squats myself....*Makes note aobut making an Imperial army out of em*

[Lucrece]

Well, there are 2 crowds to please: Warhammer Fanatics, and the General Masses. I think Mythic is doing a great job of appeasing both sides. Witch Elves are female only in WH lore....who would want to run around as a male "Witch Elf" anyways? Sounds like a wuss, and men aren't witches. The class name would've had to have been changed, and that would've caused even more of an uproar.

I like the fact that they are "bending" lore in some areas, and sticking to it strictly in others. Yes, fans of dark elf lore are happy witch elves are female only....whereas dwarf fans may hate the fact that there are females.......either way is it really a big deal if things get changed? Not everyone can be pleased.


I'd like to run a male witch elf; keep your personal assumptioms out of whether witch elves could be male or not. You see, what you say to me sounds like undiluted idiocy, but what I think of you is irrelevant to the argument at hand. Males ARE witches, look up the technical meaning, not the stereotypical one. There would be some uproar from the insecure teeny-boppers, but they'd get over it eventually. However, I don't share the side that would throw a fit if it was not changed; I'd be disappointed by the heterosexist and male-centered approach, but I would still consider playing the witch elf if it does turn out that they won't be too reliant on back positionals and dodging as damage avoidance.

[Lucrece]

Basically Witch Elves are an excuse to playangina.

No more "If you're a male playing a female character, you're either a perv or are sexually confused" Now they can counter with a "Not my fault Mythic made the class I wanted to play female only."

Also, another postive point will be that there will be much less people /whistling and googling over the female WEs because they'll know for sure that most of them are really males anyway.

So...it's okay to sexually harass people so long as they are women IRL?:confused:

[Gemini]

I'd like to run a male witch elf; keep your personal assumptioms out of whether witch elves could be male or not. You see, what you say to me sounds like undiluted idiocy, but what I think of you is irrelevant to the argument at hand. Males ARE witches, look up the technical meaning, not the stereotypical one.

Yes, males can be witches. Males cannot be Witch Elves. Witch Elves are not the people hunted in Salem, they are frenzied, blood-obsessed Brides of Khaine. Note the Brides thing, it's important. A guy cannot be a bride, and Khaine sure wouldn't let em try to be his even if they wanted to be.

[Lucrece]

Yes, males can be witches. Males cannot be Witch Elves. Witch Elves are not the people hunted in Salem, they are frenzied, blood-obsessed Brides of Khaine. Note the Brides thing, it's important. A guy cannot be a bride, and Khaine sure wouldn't let em try to be his even if they wanted to be.

Check the thread "can witch elves be male?" in the general dark elf forum. The bride issue has already been discussed.

[Feigro]

The definition of Witch means nothing. Infact the definition of any word doesn't matter if the lore of the fantasy says otherwise... I mean.. I could write a fantasy, and have a unit known as Plumbers. What are Plumbers? Well, they're a Dwarf unit adept at navigating the deepest parts of the Dwarf kingdom that have filled with water.

There you go. Plumbers that aren't actually plumbers (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/plumbers).

If a Witch Elf in Warhammer is something that is female only.. then it's impossible for a Witch Elf, by definition (in Warhammer), to be a male.

[Selandri]

"Witch Elves are the maiden-elves who are wedded to Khaine, the Lord of Murder, in midnight rites of blood sacrifice and magic. The decadent, fragile looks of the maidens of Ulthuan are nothing compared to the intoxicating beauty of the Witch Elves."

I dunno. Can men be maidens?

[Lucrece]

"Witch Elves are the maiden-elves who are wedded to Khaine, the Lord of Murder, in midnight rites of blood sacrifice and magic. The decadent, fragile looks of the maidens of Ulthuan are nothing compared to the intoxicating beauty of the Witch Elves."

I dunno. Can men be maidens?

You're missing the point. Read the referred thread; I don't feel like repeating things.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

Listen luc, if you know whats good for you you wont look.

however, i need to show you the horrors of a male witch elf

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/5461/mwe4skr7.jpg

credit goes to branko, maker of this peace of horror :-D

btw, khaine isnt :/

[Lucrece]

Listen luc, if you know whats good for you you wont look.

however, i need to show you the horrors of a male witch elf

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/5461/mwe4skr7.jpg

credit goes to branko, maker of this peace of horror :-D

btw, khaine isnt :/



Tired old joke.

BTW, Gods are not like humans; the question of sexuality is pointless.

[Arbedark]

Tired old joke.

BTW, Gods are not like humans; the question of sexuality is pointless.

Animals aren't humans either. Yet they have sexuality too.

[Arathan]

Animals aren't humans either. Yet they have sexuality too.

Humans are animals, however.

[Lucrece]

Humans are animals, however.

Beat me to the point, curse you! ;)

[Arbedark]

Beat me to the point, curse you! ;)

What point? Humans are indeed animals. Tis a simple statement :roll:

[Lucrece]

What point? Humans are indeed animals. Tis a simple statement :roll:

It's another version of "You beat me to it," silly goose ;p.

[Arbedark]

It's another version of "You beat me to it," silly goose ;p.

*Quack Quack*

Do geese quack? :confused:

[Lucrece]

*Quack Quack*

Do geese quack? :confused:

They move their butts in a funny manner when they walk, just like ducks! :p