Black guard - Male only?

[Diabolix]

I hope not, to be fair on the females that don't want to wear a chain mail bikini or be a caster and don't want to play the realm of Order :D

anyone tell me if its legal in terms of Lore for there to be a female Black guard?

Why do I get the impression its male only? well there was concept art for male and female swordmaster and archmage, but only male for black guard...

[Krulltak]

There is no reason Female Black Guard should not be allowed.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Yes they can be female, don't worry...

[Diabolix]

Yay atlast some heavily armoured women on the destruction side! :D

[Krulltak]

* Edited for Content *

[Thoden Firehammer]

agreed
(and the dots for longer post ......)

[Pangscar]

it would have been announced already.

/sigh
Can we just lock these threads? It always ends up in the same stupid debate.

[Ilairon]

Strictly speaking of the lore Black Guard are the eldest sons of Highborn who can trace their ancestry back to noble houses of Nagarythe and who are also Black Guard. So male-only, noble-only, eldest-son of a father who's a Black Guard. Mind, Mythic's deviated from the lore with other decisions so we may see male and female Black Guard. Unless they release Corsairs, Cold One Knights, Beastmasters, Warriors/Lordlings/Nobles/Highborn, or Fell Blades as a class then Black Guard would be the only possible career for people who wanted to RP those other classes, and since all of them are not gender-restricted Mythic may just decide to make Black Guard male and female.

[Dasquigman]

well i can understand why they did not do orcs though ....no orc women so just if anybody asks here is your answer

[Krulltak]

Strictly speaking of the lore Black Guard are the eldest sons of Highborn who can trace their ancestry back to noble houses of Nagarythe and who are also Black Guard. So male-only, noble-only, eldest-son of a father who's a Black Guard. Mind, Mythic's deviated from the lore with other decisions so we may see male and female Black Guard. Unless they release Corsairs, Cold One Knights, Beastmasters, Warriors/Lordlings/Nobles/Highborn, or Fell Blades as a class then Black Guard would be the only possible career for people who wanted to RP those other classes, and since all of them are not gender-restricted Mythic may just decide to make Black Guard male and female.


In that case, it makes perfect sense for them to be male only, a similair reason Witch Elves are female only.


well i can understand why they did not do orcs though ....no orc women so just if anybody asks here is your answer

Indeed. They're technincally asexual to be more specific. Fungal symbiotes.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Well I know lore wise they're male only, but the sheer fact they showed female concept art for the Black Guard the convention, and the fact they messed up an gender grimped Destruction on the Chaos, they're going to bend the lore for the black guard

[Tapela]

Well I know lore wise they're male only, but the sheer fact they showed female concept art for the Black Guard the convention, and the fact they messed up an gender grimped Destruction on the Chaos, they're going to bend the lore for the black guard

I've seen only one piece of black guard concept art. Where is this female black guard concept art you speak of?

[Krulltak]

I've seen only one piece of black guard concept art. Where is this female black guard concept art you speak of?


At the convention he speaks of.

[Vikingkingq]

Strictly speaking of the lore Black Guard are the eldest sons of Highborn who can trace their ancestry back to noble houses of Nagarythe and who are also Black Guard. So male-only, noble-only, eldest-son of a father who's a Black Guard. Mind, Mythic's deviated from the lore with other decisions so we may see male and female Black Guard. Unless they release Corsairs, Cold One Knights, Beastmasters, Warriors/Lordlings/Nobles/Highborn, or Fell Blades as a class then Black Guard would be the only possible career for people who wanted to RP those other classes, and since all of them are not gender-restricted Mythic may just decide to make Black Guard male and female.

That's not canon, I'm afraid. The Dark Elves army book says that the Black Guard are "the soldiery of our capitol Naggarond, and the fiercest fighters in all of the Land of Chill." As far as I can tell, this was invented out of whole cloth by fans.

[Drift3r]

That's not canon, I'm afraid. The Dark Elves army book says that the Black Guard are "the soldiery of our capitol Naggarond, and the fiercest fighters in all of the Land of Chill." As far as I can tell, this was invented out of whole cloth by fans.

Not all the lore for Warhammer is written in the army codex books. In fact much of the lore you read in the army codex books is reference from other works. In fact much of the lore now comes from reference books and novels put out by GW's publishing subsidiary arm known as The Black Library which is dedicated to expanding the lore for GW's IP franchises.

http://www.blacklibrary.com

[Vikingkingq]

Not all the lore for Warhammer is written in the army codex books. In fact much of the lore you read in the army codex books is reference from other works. In fact much of the lore now comes from reference books and novels put out by GW's publishing subsidiary arm known as The Black Library which is dedicated to expanding the lore for GW's IP franchises.

http://www.blacklibrary.com

I know what Black Library is; I own several of their background books - Witch Hunter's Handbook, Life of Sigmar, etc. I also own a whole shelf-full of their novels and short-story collections. However I would say that novels are a less solid source of lore, as the individual authors can make mistakes/change things to fit a better story.

In any case, unless someone can point to a reference book that says Black Guard are all-male, I'm going to maintain my position on this topic.

[Draculrom]

There is also no reason Chosen shouldn't be female, but Mythic decided to be asses about it.


Get real fool, a womens back would break from wearing armor that thick and heavy, A women as black guard ....its really unrealistic. Malekiths peronal guards are the toughest strongest and meanest. Doesn't look like something a women could handle May sound sexist but anyways, get real thats how it is props to mythic for not giving in to this modern day equality illusion. Besides the guy pointed out earlier that they where eldest sons of some nobility. Another good reason to be male only.


Think of it this way, name one women that would beat Frank Dux, Fedor Emelianenko, or even Mike Tyson. Those guys are like Chosen of our world, its unrealistic for any women to be to par with men of that power. Even in a damn fantasy game... Dont flame mythic for wanting a lil realism in their game.

[WarMachine]

Get real fool, a womens back would break from wearing armor that thick and heavy, A women as black guard ....its really unrealistic. Malekiths peronal guards are the toughest strongest and meanest. Doesn't look like something a women could handle May sound sexist but anyways, get real thats how it is props to mythic for not giving in to this modern day equality illusion. Besides the guy pointed out earlier that they where eldest sons of some nobility. Another good reason to be male only.


Think of it this way, name one women that would beat Frank Dux, Fedor Emelianenko, or even Mike Tyson. Those guys are like Chosen of our world, its unrealistic for any women to be to par with men of that power. Even in a damn fantasy game... Dont flame mythic for wanting a lil realism in their game.

I'm not gonna touch that.... Time for you to put on some teflon......

Your looking to get a good flam'n arn't you?

[Thoden Firehammer]

Get real fool, a womens back would break from wearing armor that thick and heavy, A women as black guard ....its really unrealistic. Malekiths peronal guards are the toughest strongest and meanest. Doesn't like something a women could handle May sound sexist but anyways, get real thats how it is props to mythic for not giving in to this modern day equality illusion.


Think of it this way, name one women that would beat Frank Dux, Fedor Emelianenko, or even Mike Tyson. Those guys are like Chosen of our world, its unrealistic for any women to be to par with men of that power. Even in a damn fantasy game... Dont flame mythic for wanting a lil realism in their game.


Liber Chaotica ..Man that was easy...


Think of it this way, name one women that would beat Frank Dux, Fedor Emelianenko, or even Mike Tyson. Those guys are like Chosen of our world, its unrealistic for any women to be to par with men of that power. Even in a damn fantasy game... Dont flame mythic for wanting a lil realism in their game.

oh and about this
I think she could
http://www.tamiloviam.com/img/WomenMuscle.jpg
And her
http://www.urod.ru/files/hvhv7655.jpg
And her
http://www.upcheer.com/images/musclewomen/musclewomen2.jpg
Oh and her
http://www.upcheer.com/images/musclewomen/musclewomen7.jpg

Ok now I need something to get thoes immages out of my mind....
Oh and for the record, I don't care about this equality crap, I just like making people eat their own foot....:cool:

[WarMachine]

http://www.tamiloviam.com/img/WomenMuscle.jpg
And her
http://www.urod.ru/files/hvhv7655.jpg
And her
http://www.upcheer.com/images/musclewomen/musclewomen2.jpg
Oh and her
http://www.upcheer.com/images/musclewomen/musclewomen7.jpg


Are those from your personal stash, Thoden? LOL j/k

[zoa]

meh I don't even care anymore, as much as I would LOVE to say Black Guard should be male based on the Lore out of spite for not being able to play a male melee DPS class, I don't think it's right to further restrict Destruction players, I think we've seen enough gender restricted classes already. Are you people not tired of this crap?

[Thoden Firehammer]

Are those from your personal stash, Thoden? LOL j/k
Lol, no I used google. Hey do you know if it's possible for me to bleech my own brain? *shudders*

[Draculrom]

Well now that we know what kinda women you like to check out on the internet.... Anyways, you gotta be kidding right?

[WarMachine]

And, IMO, Olga Bakalopoulos could whoop any of those fighters. Sorry no link, so google her, and go for it Thoden, shes also gotta be one of the most attractive fighters out there, that should help you out.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Well now that we know what kinda women you like to check out on the internet.... Anyways, you gotta be kidding right?


Oh yeah Drac, you know how I love me some muscle bound ladies /sarcasm off -.-

[Selandri]

Thoden, I hope no bloke ever has reason to tell you this again, but... you ruined my sex life.

Dracul: Read the previous threads dealing with that issue. Ignorance is not an excuse.

[Warsaw]

well i can understand why they did not do orcs though ....no orc women so just if anybody asks here is your answer

No orc men either. A-SEXUALS!

http://www.urod.ru/files/hvhv7655.jpg

That could totally be a dude doing that for a joke... or a really ugly women.... Thats an orc!!

[Dracnye]

well i can understand why they did not do orcs though ....no orc women so just if anybody asks here is your answer

Indeed. They're technincally asexual to be more specific. Fungal symbiotes.

Well orcs aren't technically asexual, from what i gathered they lack reproductive organs altogether.

[WarMachine]

No orc men either. A-SEXUALS!

http://www.urod.ru/files/hvhv7655.jpg

That could totally be a dude doing that for a joke... or a really ugly women.... Thats an orc!!


It won't work, I think they keep that up just to annoy lore buffs.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Well orcs aren't technically asexual, from what i gathered they lack reproductive organs altogether.

Orcs are A sexualy due to to the way in which they repoduce, they realse spores which grow like fungus into an Orc, or in this case many Orcs

[Warsaw]

Hu? Im cunfused warmachine. It wont work? Huh?

[Thoden Firehammer]

Thoden, I hope no bloke ever has reason to tell you this again, but... you ruined my sex life.

Dracul: Read the previous threads dealing with that issue. Ignorance is not an excuse.

I laughed, really really hard.

Also
you ruined my sex life.
No problem

[WarMachine]

Hu? Im cunfused warmachine. It wont work? Huh?
Correcting them when they say Orcs where gender restricted, it won't work, they can't grasp that they are not male or female.

[Warsaw]

Correcting them when they say Orcs where gender restricted, it won't work, they can't grasp that they are not male or female.

Exactly... also... My spore is bigger then your spore! :P

[WarMachine]

Exactly... also... My spore is bigger then your spore! :P
I won't argue with you..... lol.

[WombaT]

Simple to put guys. No where in the Warhammer lore is it said that women have never ever and never ever will take any of these gender specific classes. however look at the case of the chosen, if you were a chaos god, namely zeetch, would you gift your power and try to convert the following to your cause. 1. a captain of the local empire militia, a haggard ventran of many battles and skilled in the ways of war. or 2. His wife, in the male centerd age of the warhammer world she is a veteran of sevral births and numerous incidents involving the washing line. sexist yes but that is the lore. there not saying there never has been a female just that they have been so rare that it would not be an apporopriate representation of the class to make it an avalible option for us.

[bladecloud]

Simple to put guys. No where in the Warhammer lore is it said that women have never ever and never ever will take any of these gender specific classes. however look at the case of the chosen, if you were a chaos god, namely zeetch, would you gift your power and try to convert the following to your cause. 1. a captain of the local empire militia, a haggard ventran of many battles and skilled in the ways of war. or 2. His wife, in the male centerd age of the warhammer world she is a veteran of sevral births and numerous incidents involving the washing line. sexist yes but that is the lore. there not saying there never has been a female just that they have been so rare that it would not be an apporopriate representation of the class to make it an avalible option for us.

This has been said thousands of times, not even going to bother pointing out the blatant flaws about Mythic not even fully following that statement.


It was blatant laziness, creating sets of armor for multiple classes and genders is probably very time consuming and they started realizing this.

[Selandri]

Wombat: One of the tenants of worshipping Tzeentch is to go against normality whenever possible. Also the majority of the Chaos armies are made up of Northern tribes, where the women are just as vicious and dangerous as the men.

Nor has any lore source stated they are rare. What it does state is that Chaos cultists, the ones who are generally recruited within the Empire ( Cases such as Archaon being unusual, not necessarily rare, but unusual ) can be both male and female.

The lore states numerous times that men and women both fight for Chaos, can go up the ranks for Chaos, yada yada yada. At no point does it say "Oh having boobs makes you less likely".

Also, please note, sexism aside, the Chaos Gods are pure emotions personified. They do not think in any way shape or form like a mortal.

Also: Female dwarfs, Witch Hunters, Warrior Priests, Bright Wizards, Knights of the Blazing Sun. If you go by the lore, I could find just as many comments about them as I can Chosen / Marauders and the possibilities of the female form. Add on to that, Chaos is CHAOS, it's also magical. Tzeentch especially is into mutations. When you have knives for legs and chainsaws for arms, your gender becomes irrelevant real quick.

P.S. Thoden, hate. :P

[Draculrom]

And, IMO, Olga Bakalopoulos could whoop any of those fighters. Sorry no link, so google her, and go for it Thoden, shes also gotta be one of the most attractive fighters out there, that should help you out.


Stick to games then cause you dont know wtf your talking about.

[WarMachine]

cause you dont know wtf your talking about.
I guess that makes two of us. Now go troll someplace else.

[Bork]

This thread pleases Huge Woman. (http://img107.imagevenue.com/view.php?image=34243_HUEG_122_753lo.jpg)

[Draculrom]

This thread pleases Huge Woman. (http://img107.imagevenue.com/view.php?image=34243_HUEG_122_753lo.jpg)


Huge women please WarMachine...

[Morag]

Using real life examples when arguing about a fastasy game isn't the best way to go. In mmo's gender is purely an aesthetic choice. It is there for character customization and has no bearing on performance or mechanics.

Get real fool, a womens back would break from wearing armor that thick and heavy, A women as black guard ....its really unrealistic. Malekiths peronal guards are the toughest strongest and meanest. Doesn't look like something a women could handle May sound sexist but anyways, get real thats how it is props to mythic for not giving in to this modern day equality illusion. Besides the guy pointed out earlier that they where eldest sons of some nobility. Another good reason to be male only.

Good lord, do you even think about what you're saying? How is it impossible for a woman, marked by a chaos god, to wear armor? Let's even forget the whole chosen and blessed by chaos magics thing. How do you explain female Warrior Priests or female Knights of the Blazing Sun? They wear armor, I don't see their backs breaking.

But you want to bring real life into this. Maybe you should go ask all the women in the military why their backs haven't broke yet while walking around all day wearing their supply packs and equipment? You were right about one thing though, it is pretty sexist.

Think of it this way, name one women that would beat Frank Dux, Fedor Emelianenko, or even Mike Tyson. Those guys are like Chosen of our world, its unrealistic for any women to be to par with men of that power. Even in a damn fantasy game... Dont flame mythic for wanting a lil realism in their game.

Ok, this one made me laugh. You are comparing heavy weight fighters who are or were considered to be the best in the world at what they do (with the exception of Frank Dux). How do you think fighters like BJ Penn or Kid Yamamoto would do against the likes of Fedor? I bet they would lose too, and they are also top fighters... at 155. Anyways, you are comparing real people to fantasy people again.

if you were a chaos god, namely zeetch, would you gift your power and try to convert the following to your cause. 1. a captain of the local empire militia, a haggard ventran of many battles and skilled in the ways of war. or 2. His wife, in the male centerd age of the warhammer world she is a veteran of sevral births and numerous incidents involving the washing line. sexist yes but that is the lore.

You are just cherry picking examples to prove your point. How about we reverse it a little and see if a chaos god would rather gift: 1) a bread baker who happens to be male, or 2) a powerful and clever leader of one of the northern tribes who happens to be female.

If you guys are going to argue about Mythic's choice to exclude certain genders from certain careers then try to use a little logic and common sense next time. I didn't even have to finish reading your posts before I could already poke holes into what you were saying.

[Yavvy]

Consipracy theory:
Mythic will make BGs male only so all women who want to play melee Destruction side will have to play WEs.

There's reasons to make BGs male only, or allow both sexes. I think they will allow both - there's as much lore reasons as other careers not to have females (WPs etc), and they're not loaded with muscle or mutations that Mythic can't make / don't want to see on women.

[Fr0]

No lore supports them being male only, no models that are female either. But.. they don't care if there was. I bet the female ones will look cool.

[Diabolix]

Get real fool, a womens back would break from wearing armor that thick and heavy, A women as black guard ....its really unrealistic. Malekiths peronal guards are the toughest strongest and meanest. Doesn't look like something a women could handle May sound sexist but anyways, get real thats how it is props to mythic for not giving in to this modern day equality illusion. Besides the guy pointed out earlier that they where eldest sons of some nobility. Another good reason to be male only.

Chaos is Chaos, no matter what gender you get empowered with CHAOS ENERGY which corrupts you and makes you get some weird mutations or some really cool super strength as well as a thirst to mindless slaughter everyone. So Chaos females are realistic, just mythic didn't do it and that's their choice so lets stop that there.

Also you need to stop acting like you know everything because you really don't and I don't either which is why I asked if the Lore of Dark elves allowed female Black Guards not if their backs would break wearing armour. Really "Get real Fool" people on these forums are nice enough to give out their knowledge so don't think you know it all just from reading a few posts.

You are sexist you think its unrealistic for a woman to wear armour? did you not know that women have muscles too? damn you think like a 14 year old who only sees females in pornos.

And as others have said: Find another forum to troll on.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

With that out of the way, If the lore said it is the eldest sons of a nobles or whatever, would it work in the same way as the eldest CHILD? because if its for disciplinary purposes then it would still work in the same way would it not?

[Blaze]

I haven't read though all the responses but I would just like to say...

No no no no no no NO!

Having yet another gender restricted career on the Destruction side would be a really bad move in general.
And male-only Black Guard would be terrible. There would be no female tank option on the destruction side. It would be terrible game design. MMOs are supposed to have options.

If even if there was some credible lore reason for them to be male-only, the lore can go to hell in this case. Witch Elfs are female only because they have to be. I don't like Mythics desicion with the Chaos careers but I can forgive them if that was simply the way it worked out best.
But for Black Guards. I mean, mine will male so it doesn't really concern me but just... no way.

[Tonev]

Liber Chaotica ..Man that was easy...



oh and about this
I think she could
http://www.tamiloviam.com/img/WomenMuscle.jpg
And her
http://www.urod.ru/files/hvhv7655.jpg
And her
http://www.upcheer.com/images/musclewomen/musclewomen2.jpg
Oh and her
http://www.upcheer.com/images/musclewomen/musclewomen7.jpg

Ok now I need something to get thoes immages out of my mind....
Oh and for the record, I don't care about this equality crap, I just like making people eat their own foot....:cool:

I don't know Thoden, I actually find that last Muscle woman in the last picture sexy (in a beat me kinda way).

Back to being serious though, I don't think there should be any female Black Guards, if you wanna play a female killing machine/half tank melee damage dealer, then Witch Elves are there.

I think the next two careers for Dark Elves won't be gender restricted which will attract other possibilities (I'm happy with gender restrictions on careers so far). On a note, is the poster of this a real female or a male asking to play a female "Black Guard", I get so confused when people post things like this.

On a side note, we know 99.9% of the Witch Elves will be real life males so what's the problem with a female playing a male Black Guard (in my opinion anyways)?

[Blaze]

Back to being serious though, I don't think there should be any female Black Guards, if you wanna play a female killing machine/half tank melee damage dealer, then Witch Elves are there.

I think the next two careers for Dark Elves won't be gender restricted which will attract other possibilities (I'm happy with gender restrictions on careers so far). On a note, is the poster of this a real female or a male asking to play a female "Black Guard", I get so confused when people post things like this.

On a side note, we know 99.9% of the Witch Elves will be real life males so what's the problem with a female playing a male Black Guard (in my opinion anyways)?

Why should there be no female Black Guards? Give me a good reason, and not: "Because there is another class that is nothing like it to choose instead."

If you get your way someone wanting to play a female tank on the Destrution side has nothing. And that's just insane.

You underestimate the number of female players. And girls play all kinds of classes but more often prefer to play female characters. Why should they have less options than the guys?

Edit: There is some actual info from http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus
It only concerns WoW but it's pretty relevant imo. It confirms what I have heard previously concerning player demographics. 16% is a fair amount of players to leave with so few options on one faction.

From the survey data, the average age of the WoW player is 28.3 (SD = 8.4). 84% of players are male. 16% are female. Female players are significantly older (M = 32.5, SD = 10.0) than male players (M = 28.0, SD = 8.4). On average, they spend 22.7 (SD = 14.1) hours per week playing WoW. There are no gender differences in hours played per week.

M stands for Median btw. And SD means standard deviation.
(M = 32.5, SD = 10.0) means the average is 32.5 years for female wow players, and they are generally between 22.5 and 42.5 years old.

[zoa]

As much as I don't want any more restrictions on destruction, saying there are no possible theories or reasons there might be Black Guard male only is just illogical. It has already been stated that according to some Lore, Black Guards are the eldest sons of a Black Guard.

It is typical for only the elder sons of the Black Guard, or the sons of very noble families, to be accepted into the order, as they believe that 'pure Khainite blood' runs in the veins of these Dark Elves and only such Druchii can be accepted by Khaine (the order is very much dedicated to the reverence of the War God). When a son is accepted into the Black Guard it is traditional that all of his siblings are sacrificed to Khaine in the initiation.Now I will give you that it does say typical, but think about it this way, what was the reason that Paul gave in the TenTonHammer video for not having female Chosen? I think they could easily use that exact same reason for not having female Black Guard, and to that I think they need to shut up with this Lore crap and look at it from a game perspective, in which players should be able to be male or female.

[Warsaw]

"Lore Crap." Um... It's the lore that makes this game so good. Please refrain some saying something like that. That isn't postive in anyway and doesn't make for a good argument.

It seems to me that Black Guard can be female and as far as we know they are. I think we should wait until they say if they can or can't befor we start getting our flames on.

I can see the argument on why women can't be soilders but it seems like people are confusing enivroments up. The enviroment Warhammer is in allows many women to fight. Even more so in a Dark Elf army. They are just as ruthless as the men or even more so. They are the ones who become Witch Elves.

From what it seems Marauder and Chosen should be able to be females. I still don't fully understand why they shouldn't be females. Witch Elves and Orc are pretty obvious. (Even tho Orcs can't be males either)

Perhaps sometimes people should be able to change the lore a bit but it does seem like they are changing it for the worst. Also, with the note of being to invaded capitals would that give the dwarven women reason enough to leave their holds? Apparently they only leave to protect their holds and their capital is being invaded so they have to go out and hold off the attack by stopping the orcs getting points. :P

[Drift3r]

If people don't care about lore then they should go back to playing WoW IMHO. The draw to this game is the IP. If Mythic was not that interested in the IP and resulting lore then they should of just made a DAOC 2 instead. Warhammer is being marketed to Warhammer fans hence why they got this IP in the first place. So for them to butcher it up in areas where it would not effect actual gameplay is just ridiculus IMHO. Where the lore does not effect actual game play mechanics following staying true to the IP should be a god damn no brainer.

If you don't have the talent to "draw gurls armor for chaos" then go out and hire the talent or outsource the work. In this case there is a reference to DE Black Guard being male only. Even if it's in a novel which after all was approved by GW since they own BL publishing it's still a reference that suggest they are male only.

Army books are a nice source of reference material but they are not the sole source of the entire lore for GW's IP. This is why BL was created to further flesh out the lore that was not covered or found in army books. They did this due to not wanting most army books to end up being 1,000+ pages of which 95% would end up being dedicated to providing reference material instead of dealing with what the sole reason army books are for which is to mainly to provide stats, data, weapon/spell choices, and painting tips for a given army. This is all my opinion but that's how I feel about this whole subject.

[dutch_gamer]

I truly wouldn't be surprised if the Black Guard turns out to be male only. We have had the same debate about the Marauder before they told us they were male only. With the Marauder a lot of people were very confident that Mythic wouldn't restrict them be male only either.

Only having one art impression of the Black Guard, while with the two other careers that were announced at the same time, they showed both genders, speaks volumes.

[Thoden Firehammer]

I don't know Thoden, I actually find that last Muscle woman in the last picture sexy (in a beat me kinda way).

Back to being serious though, I don't think there should be any female Black Guards, if you wanna play a female killing machine/half tank melee damage dealer, then Witch Elves are there.

I think the next two careers for Dark Elves won't be gender restricted which will attract other possibilities (I'm happy with gender restrictions on careers so far). On a note, is the poster of this a real female or a male asking to play a female "Black Guard", I get so confused when people post things like this.

On a side note, we know 99.9% of the Witch Elves will be real life males so what's the problem with a female playing a male Black Guard (in my opinion anyways)?


No I was not the poster asking to play a female Black guard, let me help you find out what I plan on playing, here's a hint, it has something to do with my Avatar pic, and the latter under neath that say Dwarf hammerer ... >.>

[Xurré]

Only having one art impression of the Black Guard, while with the two other careers that were announced at the same time, they showed both genders, speaks volumes.
They've only shown one image of the Black Guard, period. I don't think that proves anything either way.

The link stating they're male only seems tenuous at best. And while it's true that Mythic has used far less to make a class gender-restricted, they've also broken much stronger statements to make a class gender-inclusive.

And from a lore perspective it wouldn't make sense for Malekith, who is afraid of being killed by a male Sorcerer, to surround himself with male guards. If I were him I'd ensure all my guards were of a gender opposite to the one I'm afraid of will kill me so that the killer would stand out more if trying to pass himself off as one of my guards. Of course there's a lot of stuff in what Malekith does that doesn't make sense (male sorcerer is prophesized to kill me... so I try to kill all of them and ensure that any male sorcerer has every reason to want to see me dead).

Anyway, as others have noted, I strongly hope that they'll allow female Black Guards, because otherwise there wouldn't be any female tank classes on Destruction.

I remember the time though when people noted that they'd like to see dark elves have to female-only careers and two male-only careers, making them sort-a similar to the greenskins in having four single-gender careers.


- Xurré

[Gloovish]

Women should just be happy they're allowed to play Warhammer instead of complaining. Now go get me a beer! *slaps *

No concept art of female BG shown = no BG

edit: lol. I started writing before Xuree's post but posted right after her. interesting.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Women should just be happy they're allowed to play Warhammer instead of complaining. Now go get me a beer! *slaps *

No concept art of female BG shown = no BG

edit: lol. I started writing before Xuree's post but posted right after her. interesting.

Actualy I remember seeing conecpt art of a female BG it was in someones vid, and that BG clearly was female...

[dutch_gamer]

And from a lore perspective it wouldn't make sense for Malekith, who is afraid of being killed by a male Sorcerer, to surround himself with male guards. If I were him I'd ensure all my guards were of a gender opposite to the one I'm afraid of will kill me so that the killer would stand out more if trying to pass himself off as one of my guards. Of course there's a lot of stuff in what Malekith does that doesn't make sense (male sorcerer is prophesized to kill me... so I try to kill all of them and ensure that any male sorcerer has every reason to want to see me dead).

Male guards are only a problem when they would be sorcerers, which they aren't. Also killing or not killing all sorcerers doesn't change the outcome of the prophecy. So it isn't that weird that Malekith wants them all killed.

Anyway, as others have noted, I strongly hope that they'll allow female Black Guards, because otherwise there wouldn't be any female tank classes on Destruction.

I hope they will allow females as well, but in my opinion the signs aren't so good. Of course, I could be completely wrong. But when they announced the Marauder, on I believe Gamespot, they also showed only one image. Unless the Black Guard was just sketched, they could have shown a female version of it, when there is any. They could have shown a raw sketch in black and white.

Actualy I remember seeing conecpt art of a female BG it was in someones vid, and that BG clearly was female...

Hmm will have to try to find that then, tomorrow (well today but after some midnight rest).

[Gloovish]

Actualy I remember seeing conecpt art of a female BG it was in someones vid, and that BG clearly was female...
Such a grand claim requires a link.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Such a grand claim requires a link.

True it does, it's such a shame that I have a memory of a rodent and can't remember the site, i'll look for it though and post it when I find it

Yep can't find it, I blame my laziness, either it exists and I am the only one that knows or, I dreamed it all up, either way it's not looking bright for my claim :P

[Tonev]

No I was not the poster asking to play a female Black guard, let me help you find out what I plan on playing, here's a hint, it has something to do with my Avatar pic, and the latter under neath that say Dwarf hammerer ... >.>

I think you mis understood me Dwarf, when I say "Poster", I meant the poster of this thread (Diabolix).
I don't have anything against people wanting to play what they wanna play, but this thread seems like it has been done already (remember the thread "No male Witch Elves,Marauders,Chosen" or something to that effect).

I'm all for lore in any game "or else we will see Black Guards with lightsabers in the game" and to be honest, I have never, ever read or seen any art books that depicts "Black Guards as female". If you find a sanctioned book by GW that shows a picture of a female Black Guard, I'm all for it:wink:.

[Xurré]

Male guards are only a problem when they would be sorcerers, which they aren't.
One can't see whether someone is a sorcerer just by looking at them. One generally can tell their gender by looking at them. And with the dark elves' penchant for misdirection and such it's not all that inconceivable that a male sorcerer wanting to get close to Malekith to kill him would pose as one of his personal guard (since those are about the only ones that can get close to him I'd imagine).

Also killing or not killing all sorcerers doesn't change the outcome of the prophecy. So it isn't that weird that Malekith wants them all killed.
Time and time again there are stories of people trying to fight prophecies which claim their death but, in doing so, only make the prophecy come true. And while such behavior would make sense for an orc or a human perhaps, for someone who has lived thousands of years I'd expect a little more intelligence.

For instance, what Malekith would much better do is make the prophecy his own, ensuring that he ends up on the right side of it. If I were him I'd probably support the rise of another dark king from the dark elves (possibly somewhere other than in Naggaroth) and at the same time support a male sorcerer (though I still think the prophecy might refer to Malekith himself in this) to set up this guy's demise. There. Prophecy fulfilled and Malekith coming out on top.

That is how I see elves dealing with things like that; controlling all aspects and twisting things to their purpose. Not by being some mindless idiot by aiming the bad part of the prophecy directly at yourself.


- Xurré

[dutch_gamer]

I do wonder if there was an actual female Black Guard art impression. The reason why I find it a little hard to believe is that a site such as Gamespot seems to be showing all art that was shown during the presentation and some extra things. So Mythic has probably given all of the art they used to the media. Even in the small room where Jeff and Paul were interviewed by countless of fansites, they still only showed the exact same presentation, with some gameplay of the WE and Swordmaster and one interview, impressions of the lighting system. One would think that if they showed the female Black Guard in some fashion, that if it were an exclusive it would have been seen by more of us. It is doubtful they would give an exclusive to a site not very well known.

One thing I do wonder, why did nobody so far ask Mythic if the Black Guard is gender restricted? That is really one of the first question these interviewers should think of, when they only see one piece of art of a career.

[Rauros]

Who cares if Black Guards are male only in the Lore? Does it really matter? Everyone seems to forget that Mythic has gone to Games Workshop and gotten permission to have Male Sorcerers, which is clearly against the lore.

Destruction needs a female tanks class, plain and simple. Not having a female tank class would be a horrible mistake, and Mythic isn't that stupid. Besides, Black Guard armor looks very intricate and complex, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's super heavy. Dark Elves are all about speed and dexterity, and female dark elves are world renowned for their prowess in battle. Don't be so foolish as to compare them to human women. They can definitely support the armor and still retain their agility.

And when they announced Witch Elves, they were very quick to point out that the class is female only. Did that happen with Black Guards? No. There will be more Black Guard art and info in the coming months and I'm sure we'll see many great pics of lady BG's.

If you want a link to where Paul said there were male sorcerers, here ya go:
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMRSLP6tKc&mode=related&search=

[Rauros]

Bah! That link isn't working. Go to youtube and search for "paul barnett interview by jeuxonline 2 of 2". He talks about male sorcerers at 2:30 :D

[Tea TIme With Death]

Liber Chaotica ..Man that was easy...



oh and about this
I think she could
http://www.tamiloviam.com/img/WomenMuscle.jpg
And her
http://www.urod.ru/files/hvhv7655.jpg
And her
http://www.upcheer.com/images/musclewomen/musclewomen2.jpg
Oh and her
http://www.upcheer.com/images/musclewomen/musclewomen7.jpg

Ok now I need something to get thoes immages out of my mind....
Oh and for the record, I don't care about this equality crap, I just like making people eat their own foot....:cool:



yah and guess what? you will gave more females playing orcs and goblins before they touch a character like that. Which is why i think they made them male only and why they said they did. ART. how in gods names do you make that appealing? If females want "equality" in a game that still as 99.9% equality except fer a select choice of chars. they can suck it up and play a male character.


edt:no prob about female blakc guards rly.

[dutch_gamer]

Destruction needs a female tanks class, plain and simple. Not having a female tank class would be a horrible mistake, and Mythic isn't that stupid. Besides, Black Guard armor looks very intricate and complex, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's super heavy. Dark Elves are all about speed and dexterity, and female dark elves are world renowned for their prowess in battle. Don't be so foolish as to compare them to human women. They can definitely support the armor and still retain their agility.

Mythic has already made bad decisions before, this wouldn't be the first time. It is really not as clear cut as "Mythic isn't that stupid".

And when they announced Witch Elves, they were very quick to point out that the class is female only. Did that happen with Black Guards? No. There will be more Black Guard art and info in the coming months and I'm sure we'll see many great pics of lady BG's.

And when they announced the Marauder they didn't tell us right away either that they would be gender restricted.

If you want a link to where Paul said there were male sorcerers, here ya go:
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMRSLP6tKc&mode=related&search=

Yes I know about that video, which is old. This was all BEFORE the other gender restricted careers. Mythic may have changed their minds by now about the Sorceress and could very well make them female only, based on their previous decisions. A lot of other things have changed since then as well, the skill system, city gate RvR, etc.

[Drift3r]

I think you mis understood me Dwarf, when I say "Poster", I meant the poster of this thread (Diabolix).
I don't have anything against people wanting to play what they wanna play, but this thread seems like it has been done already (remember the thread "No male Witch Elves,Marauders,Chosen" or something to that effect).

I'm all for lore in any game "or else we will see Black Guards with lightsabers in the game" and to be honest, I have never, ever read or seen any art books that depicts "Black Guards as female". If you find a sanctioned book by GW that shows a picture of a female Black Guard, I'm all for it:wink:.

I'd take a quote myself because not everything in GW's IP lore range is visualized.

[Thoden Firehammer]

yah and guess what? you will gave more females playing orcs and goblins before they touch a character like that. Which is why i think they made them male only and why they said they did. ART. how in gods names do you make that appealing? If females want "equality" in a game that still as 99.9% equality except fer a select choice of chars. they can suck it up and play a male character.


edt:no prob about female blakc guards rly.


This sounds pretty sexist to me. :P

saying that females only play Witch Elf like characters, and that they can just suck it up and play male characters hmmm... I wonder.

[Diabolix]

I think you mis understood me Dwarf, when I say "Poster", I meant the poster of this thread (Diabolix).

No I don't plan on playing a female black guard but my girlfriend might (Although she seems to like the witch elf more >_> I think Xurre and Zoat's influence have gotten out of hand!) this thread isn't really a complaint its more of a "Will the lore allow female black guards?" but kinda escalated :(

Looks like I will have to find a quote from a book or a picture! so as soon as I can get to a GW Store I'll ask one of them.

[Draculrom]

Putting everything aside, the reason you wont see any new artwork or any gameplay vids is cause its in the works and they are deciding right now wether it to be male only or female which is why you originally only saw 1 picture of the class itself.

But I stand by my earlier claims 100% regardless of what you all say.


Ok, this one made me laugh. You are comparing heavy weight fighters who are or were considered to be the best in the world at what they do (with the exception of Frank Dux). How do you think fighters like BJ Penn or Kid Yamamoto would do against the likes of Fedor? I bet they would lose too, and they are also top fighters... at 155. Anyways, you are comparing real people to fantasy people again.


To the guy who called me out on the heavyweight fighters, think of it this way, why would a choas god bless anyone weak? Dont you think he would bless the biggest and the baddest in the lands? So is it a far shot to compare them to some RL fighters who are the best? A choas god would bless them above just some random female wannabe fighter? Aside from that I noticed in my gameplay experience there isn't many females who play tanks to begin with. Theres Males who play females and ive seen plenty of them. But mostly I never really met any real chicks playing tank classes. So i assume all the people ing and complaining about not getting to play a chick tank wanted to play one to begin with. I say grow some balls suck it up and play a man class for once.

[Diabolix]

To the guy who called me out on the heavyweight fighters, think of it this way, why would a choas god bless anyone weak? Dont you think he would bless the biggest and the baddest in the lands? So is it a far shot to compare them to some RL fighters who are the best? A choas god would bless them above just some random female wannabe fighter? Aside from that I noticed in my gameplay experience there isn't many females who play tanks to begin with. Theres Males who play females and ive seen plenty of them. But mostly I never really met any real chicks playing tank classes. So i assume all the people ing and complaining about not getting to play a chick tank wanted to play one to begin with. I say grow some balls suck it up and play a man class for once.

You really have no clue, anyone that is willing will get blessed with power but lose their minds that's the cost of all chaos blessings. a good example which I feel great for using is THE SECRET LIVES OF MOBS web comic strip about Chaos mutations here (http://www.secretlivesofmobs.com/index.php?strip_id=22)

Think about it. Gods can do pretty much anything.

Also, seriously shut the hell up! Just because you haven't seen female players on tank classes don't mean they wont ever try it the option should be there for them. Your radical sexist views isn't wanted.

[WarMachine]

Putting everything aside, the reason you wont see any new artwork or any gameplay vids is cause its in the works and they are deciding right now wether it to be male only or female which is why you originally only saw 1 picture of the class itself.

But I stand by my earlier claims 100% regardless of what you all say.



To the guy who called me out on the heavyweight fighters, think of it this way, why would a choas god bless anyone weak? Dont you think he would bless the biggest and the baddest in the lands? So is it a far shot to compare them to some RL fighters who are the best? A choas god would bless them above just some random female wannabe fighter? Aside from that I noticed in my gameplay experience there isn't many females who play tanks to begin with. Theres Males who play females and ive seen plenty of them. But mostly I never really met any real chicks playing tank classes. So i assume all the people ing and complaining about not getting to play a chick tank wanted to play one to begin with. I say grow some balls suck it up and play a man class for once.

Chaos gods don't care about physical strienght, they care more about your devotion. They can make you strong, they can't make you devote your self to them.

Your odviously a troll, cuz you know nothing of lore, and make insane staments. Shooo, shoo troll, shooo, go back to your WoW forums, shoo I say!

BTW, my wife plays a ProSpec pally,and a Warrior and tanks pretty well with both of them.

[Daegalus]

I think we have enough restriction on the Destruction side. I mean WAR is a separate game, it doesn't have to follow lore 100%, but it can build on it. What stops them from adding a bit of their own lore to the game allowing for civil evolution to happen to allow women on the battlefield. GW can disapprove of it and can be thrown out, but again, its a separate game, they can alter things they choose to that doesn't completely destroy the game. Having female Chosen, Marauder, and Black Guards doesn't destroy anything with the game, all it does is make a bunch of lore junkies mad. I know the Chosen and Marauder are already officially restricted (still think it was a bad move), but they shouldn't restrict anymore. They are trying to stay true to the lore as much as they can and want to, but they can also bend it and alter it, they can change it up a bit. Worlds are always evolving, things change, and so can the Warhammer world. People seriously need to be so lore anal and accept change. Making Female selection for classes that are normally Male-only in war doesn't affect the game or the story much at all. Its almost insignificant, and the only people really wanting the restrictions are the die-hard lore people. I say screw lore a bit, its not the only thing they have to follow, this isn't made by GW its made by Mythic with guidance and the license from GW. If GW really hates a change, they can stop Mythic, but otherwise, I don't see why it would be a problem. Especially something as small as genders compared to the grand scheme of the game and story.

P.S. If I insult anyone with something I said (especially the Lore stuff), I apologize, Im not in the best of moods, and I really hate what they are doing with the gender restrictions. So apologies to all that I offend, this is just a rant about a topic that has gotten to me.

[WarMachine]

I think we have enough restriction on the Destruction side. I mean WAR is a separate game, it doesn't have to follow lore 100%, but it can build on it. What stops them from adding a bit of their own lore to the game allowing for civil evolution to happen to allow women on the battlefield. GW can disapprove of it and can be thrown out, but again, its a separate game, they can alter things they choose to that doesn't completely destroy the game. Having female Chosen, Marauder, and Black Guards doesn't destroy anything with the game, all it does is make a bunch of lore junkies mad. I know the Chosen and Marauder are already officially restricted (still think it was a bad move), but they shouldn't restrict anymore. They are trying to stay true to the lore as much as they can and want to, but they can also bend it and alter it, they can change it up a bit. Worlds are always evolving, things change, and so can the Warhammer world. People seriously need to be so lore anal and accept change. Making Female selection for classes that are normally Male-only in war doesn't affect the game or the story much at all. Its almost insignificant, and the only people really wanting the restrictions are the die-hard lore people. I say screw lore a bit, its not the only thing they have to follow, this isn't made by GW its made by Mythic with guidance and the license from GW. If GW really hates a change, they can stop Mythic, but otherwise, I don't see why it would be a problem. Especially something as small as genders compared to the grand scheme of the game and story.

P.S. If I insult anyone with something I said (especially the Lore stuff), I apologize, Im not in the best of moods, and I really hate what they are doing with the gender restrictions. So apologies to all that I offend, this is just a rant about a topic that has gotten to me.

A side note.... If GW doesn't like it, they can pull the lisence, and then we would be the one to lose. They have done it before, and I'm sure they wouldn't hesitate to do it again, GW wants it true to their lore, they spent many man hours makeing this lore, and we as fans love it. Now not to offend anyone, but if you don't like GW's lore, or think they should change it fo fit your views, you should prolly go back to WoW.

[Daegalus]

A side note.... If GW doesn't like it, they can pull the lisence, and then we would be the one to lose. They have done it before, and I'm sure they wouldn't hesitate to do it again, GW wants it true to their lore, they spent many man hours makeing this lore, and we as fans love it. Now not to offend anyone, but if you don't like GW's lore, or think they should change it fo fit your views, you should prolly go back to WoW.

Well I don't mean completely change it. Bend it. And how much can be broken in lore if you can have a female chosen, or female marauder or a female blackguard? Im refering to lore related to genders. I dont mean the rest of it. I want them to stay true to it because I know Warhammer has been around for a seriously long time, its been worked on for a long time. Im just saying, how would gender restrictions break anything meaningful to the lore. And i Quit wow a long time ago. Im sick of it. Warhammer is a game I'm looking forward to. And in no way do I want GW to pull the license. thats why i said it GW doesn't like it Mythic should follow and not add it, but if GW is ok with it (just like they said Male Sorcerors were ok) Why should it matter so much?

[WarMachine]

Well I don't mean completely change it. Bend it. And how much can be broken in lore if you can have a female chosen, or female marauder or a female blackguard? Im refering to lore related to genders. I dont mean the rest of it. I want them to stay true to it because I know Warhammer has been around for a seriously long time, its been worked on for a long time. Im just saying, how would gender restrictions break anything meaningful to the lore. And i Quit wow a long time ago. Im sick of it. Warhammer is a game I'm looking forward to. And in no way do I want GW to pull the license. thats why i said it GW doesn't like it Mythic should follow and not add it, but if GW is ok with it (just like they said Male Sorcerors were ok) Why should it matter so much?

Well, I see nothing wrong with female chaos classes, but lore wasn't the reson they wern't made, and I hope that Mythic sees the error of their ways and fixes it, but it likey won't happen. It doesn't bother me that their not there, cuz in fact, their actually quite rare in lore. But to keep it to lore as much as possible is to keep it WarHammer, when we warp and change lore, we take a step away from a game that I have been in love with since 1989, and longer for some other people. Then the further we get away from lore the more we get closer to being copies of such games a WoW, EQ, and L2 (just to name a few).

[Vikingkingq]

As much as I don't want any more restrictions on destruction, saying there are no possible theories or reasons there might be Black Guard male only is just illogical. It has already been stated that according to some Lore, Black Guards are the eldest sons of a Black Guard.

Now I will give you that it does say typical, but think about it this way, what was the reason that Paul gave in the TenTonHammer video for not having female Chosen? I think they could easily use that exact same reason for not having female Black Guard, and to that I think they need to shut up with this Lore crap and look at it from a game perspective, in which players should be able to be male or female.

It has been stated according to a fan version of the lore that this is the case. Official GW lore, namely from the Army book and the website, says nothing of the kind. No one has yet brought forward an example of any GW product, be it a novel or a background book or a RPG book, that says that Black Guard are male-only.

[Daegalus]

Well, I see nothing wrong with female chaos classes, but lore wasn't the reson they wern't made, and I hope that Mythic sees the error of their ways and fixes it, but it likey won't happen. It doesn't bother me that their not there, cuz in fact, their actually quite rare in lore. But to keep it to lore as much as possible is to keep it WarHammer, when we warp and change lore, we take a step away from a game that I have been in love with since 1989, and longer for some other people. Then the further we get away from lore the more we get closer to being copies of such games a WoW, EQ, and L2 (just to name a few).

Ya, I perfectly understand, I actually plan to get eBook versions (if i can find them) of the army, lore, and other such books on WAR so I can readup on some of it. It doesn't bother me either, but they shouldn't limit the classes. My gf actually really wanted to play marauders and was really hoping for a female class. She is still going to play one as a male, but she prefers to play the gender that she is. It just disappoints limits the female gamers on choices, because I'm sure there are more female players that play female characters. I'm all for being as close as possible to lore, it makes for a great game, and allows it to dominate all teh lore destroying games. I'm just saying genders were where lore should be insanely enforced, it doesn't make or break the game. The Chaos chosen and marauders are already done and in the past, can't do much about them. And Witch Elves gender is so specific in the, it must not be broken, but Black Guards can be female from what I know, and there is no reason for more restrictions. Also so far, there is no Female tank class. Greenskins are spores and no gender, but they look masculine, Chosen have already been restricted. So there is only 1 tank class left that allows players to play a female tank.

[BurninElf]

I think it will be both because Chosen and Marauders will be male-only, and Greenskins are all A-sexual, so i think Chaos side is due for an armor clad female class.

[WarMachine]

Ya, I perfectly understand, I actually plan to get eBook versions (if i can find them) of the army, lore, and other such books on WAR so I can readup on some of it. It doesn't bother me either, but they shouldn't limit the classes. My gf actually really wanted to play marauders and was really hoping for a female class. She is still going to play one as a male, but she prefers to play the gender that she is. It just disappoints limits the female gamers on choices, because I'm sure there are more female players that play female characters. I'm all for being as close as possible to lore, it makes for a great game, and allows it to dominate all teh lore destroying games. I'm just saying genders were where lore should be insanely enforced, it doesn't make or break the game. The Chaos chosen and marauders are already done and in the past, can't do much about them. And Witch Elves gender is so specific in the, it must not be broken, but Black Guards can be female from what I know, and there is no reason for more restrictions. Also so far, there is no Female tank class. Greenskins are spores and no gender, but they look masculine, Chosen have already been restricted. So there is only 1 tank class left that allows players to play a female tank.

And like I said, their is the reson I beleive their should be female chaos, it is lore, and females perfer to play their own gender, my wife plays female tanks as well. Though she told me if she joins me on WAR she'll be a WE. Putting whats their is all the better IMO, but getting down to bending lore because their neglected it elsewhere will ruin it.

[BlackRose]

And like I said, their is the reson I beleive their should be female chaos, it is lore, and females perfer to play their own gender, my wife plays female tanks as well. Though she told me if she joins me on WAR she'll be a WE. Putting whats their is all the better IMO, but getting down to bending lore because their neglected it elsewhere will ruin it.

Thats what I don't understand, I have no clue about the lore but from what I heard was they kinda stretched WE's to make them more opportunist and escape artist instead of frenzied blood crazed berserkers. If they stretched the lore there why didn't for lore that wasn't quite as thorough to the point they could stretch it.

[WarMachine]

Thats what I don't understand, I have no clue about the lore but from what I heard was they kinda stretched WE's to make them more opportunist and escape artist instead of frenzied blood crazed berserkers. If they stretched the lore there why didn't for lore that wasn't quite as thorough to the point they could stretch it.

Once more, you cannot compare a lone soldier to a unit. Alone, a WE would become an opertunist as one on one. Being a head on berserker unit is where their striengh in the TT game lies.


Good example here, in WH40K an Inquisiter will bring his unit head on in a TT battle. Now take the game Inquisiter =I=, the same Inquisiter will be sneaky, and even try to ambush his opponet. You just have to stop thinking unit, and start thinking in terms of Inquisiter =I= (1vs.1).

For those that don't know, (=I=) Inquisiter, is the GW unit and 1v1 TT game for WH40k

[Thrakkesh]

Elves do not treat females any lighter in war then they do the males. Women can participate in the army, as Cosairs, and even attain noble status. There's nothing to suggest it.

The Black Guard will not be male only.

[Thrakkesh]

Thats what I don't understand, I have no clue about the lore but from what I heard was they kinda stretched WE's to make them more opportunist and escape artist instead of frenzied blood crazed berserkers. If they stretched the lore there why didn't for lore that wasn't quite as thorough to the point they could stretch it.

Also, they did not 'stretch' the lore, you mis-interpreted it. Witch Elves are not frenzied beyond all possability of rationality. They're zealots, and while drugged they're certainly bloodthirsty. But they also have high initative and high weapon skill. Again, people likely only see what they want to see, but that generally means fast and agile. There are several pieces of 'lore' taken from White Dwarf and the army book that portrays Witch Elves as fully capable of coherence, even in battle (one particular issue has a Witch Elf taunting a High Elf as they fight in various coherent fashion).

As for Chaos, the majority of people that argue there's 'lore' for it either have taken said lore out of context or otherwise concocted flimsy argument. Yes, there is a female chosen of Slannesh who happens to be a daemon. But that's 1 example, and there isn't a vaguely human female model for Chaos I can think of. There's also a female Khornate Champion in a book--which, in case you haven't dealt with GW, means nothing. (the books frequently violate canon in small ways). Fantastic--but the fact that you conveinently avoid is there is only those two mentions of one instance, and you certainly can't argue that they're common--and in fact, that making them so rare that they can't be anything but possible NPCs is somewhat justified (oh, and that GW has cleared it, effectively saying that the company that Made Warhammer approves the decision.)

I'm not saying the choice was good or bad, I'm just saying I hate those two arguments almost as much as I hate the whole silly unfair treatment thing ,because the average female gamer who don't want to be portrayed as a bombshell because that would be stereotyping (whereas most female gamers I've talked to in the real world expressed complete indifference) but also don't want to have to play a set of polygons that look male because... that's not something something. I don't know.

[Kellaris]

Once more, you cannot compare a lone soldier to a unit. Alone, a WE would become an opertunist as one on one. Being a head on berserker unit is where their striengh in the TT game lies.



I this is true, We cannot take anu comparisons to TT.
Becouse without a unit everyone can behave just in the opposite way.

Maybe we shall make a knight our ranged DPS. You know, when he is not in his unit, he loves hunting and is very good with his bow/crossbow. ;)

Also Everyone (knight or sorcerer) should have escape moves and positional attacks.
Why dhe should charge head on if without a unit they can stab someone in his back??

[Walrus]

I'm skipping most of the posts and saying "No No No"! Destruction has enough male only careers. I thought they would need 1 more female career for DE to balance it out, but they cannot have another only male one.

[Kellaris]

I'm skipping most of the posts and saying "No No No"! Destruction has enough male only careers. I thought they would need 1 more female career for DE to balance it out, but they cannot have another only male one.

I really do not know what to say. There are still people thinking that destruction needs another gender specific class.....:mad:

[Noli me Tangere]

I really do not know what to say. There are still people thinking that destruction needs another gender specific class.....:mad:

Get rid of the chaos male only classes, make them dual gender, and give the male bit to the dwarves where it should have been anyways. <_<

Yeah.. I know it won't happen.

[BlackRose]

Once more, you cannot compare a lone soldier to a unit. Alone, a WE would become an opertunist as one on one. Being a head on berserker unit is where their striengh in the TT game lies.


Good example here, in WH40K an Inquisiter will bring his unit head on in a TT battle. Now take the game Inquisiter =I=, the same Inquisiter will be sneaky, and even try to ambush his opponet. You just have to stop thinking unit, and start thinking in terms of Inquisiter =I= (1vs.1).

For those that don't know, (=I=) Inquisiter, is the GW unit and 1v1 TT game for WH40k

I understand both that responded to me, but I liked this one. My question is did Orc choppas gain this new "insight" of being a single unit instead and are using tactics now? Or do they still charge in with two weapons frenzy/zerking and using abilities so thier opponet can't flee till they disembowel them completely?

[Tremos]

pretty sure there's going to be female Black Guards.

[WarMachine]

I this is true, We cannot take anu comparisons to TT.
Becouse without a unit everyone can behave just in the opposite way.

Maybe we shall make a knight our ranged DPS. You know, when he is not in his unit, he loves hunting and is very good with his bow/crossbow. ;)

Also Everyone (knight or sorcerer) should have escape moves and positional attacks.
Why dhe should charge head on if without a unit they can stab someone in his back??
On that note, weapon restrictions havn't been listed, a knight may just get to use a crossbow, but, likely no where near as well as a ranged DPS would. Most DPS classes are in and out quick, they don't use the heavy armor of the tanks, and their physical abilities are greater than the caster classes, thats why they would work like that as opposed to the other classes you have lised.


I understand both that responded to me, but I liked this one. My question is did Orc choppas gain this new "insight" of being a single unit instead and are using tactics now? Or do they still charge in with two weapons frenzy/zerking and using abilities so thier opponet can't flee till they disembowel them completely?
Acually, I head they have a rear positional, so that would mean they would have a new insite on 1v1 tatics.

[Rerisen]

The whole wanting classes to look Iconic thing is turning out to be a real pain in the butt to Mythic I think.

I never understood it to begin with. Don't recall ever playing a RPG online or otherwise and being all confused about who I was fighting.

If you start making decisions about Chosen and Marauders based on real life examples or the idea that a female version 'would not look right' then you can expect people to call hypocrisy when something like a Black Guard, or Warrior Priest is allowed to be a female.

Male and Female bodies look different. Let's face up to it and say who cares, they can still perform these roles, and certainly can in a fantasy mmo where all kinds of breaks from reality and lore excuses permit things you would not expect to be possible, to be possible.

Saying the only Females in the game are going to be classes that are defined by their feminine traits or obviously looking female (Witch Elves, Damsels, Witch hunters who can wear tight leather :rolleyes: Sorceresses with long flowing hair and robes, etc) is a very dangerous precedent. Not only do woman gamers not make up enough of the player base, but not many males are going to be interested in playing classes that are defined mainly by that they are girls. With Witch Elves you can get away with it, because their core traits fit more with traditionally male WH attributes (like bloodthirsty, mean, brutal killers). RPG's going back to D&D have had no problem with woman classes wearing armor, even plate. What is the big deal now?

With something like the Black Guard, I don't see how you can put a woman up in all that garb of metal armor and a giant halberd and then say but we couldn't do the same for Chosen. They should have erred on the side of inclusion from the beginning and they would not be have to worry so much about balancing class numbers or ultimately a problem of the gender restrictions causing imbalanced numbers between Order and Destruction.

[Sinfjotle]

I'm honestly not sure what class I'd play if there aren't female Black Guards. I might try swordmaster, because that's the only other appealing female offensive tank class... It's the only one actually, except dwarfs, but dwarfs suck.

[Blaze]

I'm honestly not sure what class I'd play if there aren't female Black Guards. I might try swordmaster, because that's the only other appealing female offensive tank class... It's the only one actually, except dwarfs, but dwarfs suck.

This is why I would like to restate what I said previously in this thread.
Male only BGs would mean no female tanks on Destruction side. None.
No option for someone wanting to play a female character and play a tank. Anyone wanting to do that would have to go Order. I'm willing to bet this would not help Destruction, the "Evil" side, in terms of faction balance. Because a lot of male gamers like to play female characters, and most female player like to play female characters.
The reason why someone would like to be a female tank on Destruction side does not matter. They should be able to if they want to. Because completely restricting a whole class role on a whole faction to one gender would be going too far. The Order side would be too far ahead when it comes to options. It would be bad game design for an MMORPG. The avatar might not matter to some people, but it does matter to a lot of people.

So once again. Male only Black Guards would be a very very very bad idea.




Did I mention I think it would be a bad idea? Because it would be. Very.

[Sinfjotle]

I couldn't agree more, I mean, if there are corsairs as ranged DD for Dark Elves, I could see myself playing those, but as far as destruction goes...

Orcs are cool, don't get me wrong I will make an orc sometime because everyone loves orcs and it will be a choppa. However, I want a class I'll enjoy not only looking at, but playing as and getting known as. Choppa will most definitely be an alt that I'll play around with.

I was excited about Chaos Chosen at first, because I love the armor look. In console RPGs I either play as some fast agile character or some heavily armored character. Now, dark elves are both, which is awesome, so I want to play as one.

If it wasn't just aesthetics, I recognize game mechanics as I see them. Any tank that does damage usually turns out pretty well balanced, faring well in PvP and PvE. Though, in raids/high end PvE (which this game won't be dependent on thank God) they tend to be replaced by others.

So not only is it something that appeals to my personal tastes, but it has a gameplay I'll actually enjoy.

I seriously doubt Mythic would make them male only as Dark Elves are pretty matriarchal except for their king iirc.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

This is why I would like to restate what I said previously in this thread.
Male only BGs would mean no female tanks on Destruction side. None.
No option for someone wanting to play a female character and play a tank. Anyone wanting to do that would have to go Order. I'm willing to bet this would not help Destruction, the "Evil" side, in terms of faction balance. Because a lot of male gamers like to play female characters, and most female player like to play female characters.
The reason why someone would like to be a female tank on Destruction side does not matter. They should be able to if they want to. Because completely restricting a whole class role on a whole faction to one gender would be going too far. The Order side would be too far ahead when it comes to options. It would be bad game design for an MMORPG. The avatar might not matter to some people, but it does matter to a lot of people.

So once again. Male only Black Guards would be a very very very bad idea.




Did I mention I think it would be a bad idea? Because it would be. Very.
whereas i dont got any problem with a class being female only restricted, it being not restricted at all, i couldn't care less.

however, im amazed at the amount of people who wont play the class if there isn't a female option.

imo, i find it to be pretty stubborn.
if i would be interested in the witch elf arche type class, i would play it, couldn't care less i can t play a male.

[Blaze]

whereas i dont got any problem with a class being female only restricted, it being not restricted at all, i couldn't care less.

however, im amazed at the amount of people who wont play the class if there isn't a female option.

imo, i find it to be pretty stubborn.
if i would be interested in the witch elf arche type class, i would play it, couldn't care less i can t play a male.

A lot of people like to play thier own gender. They identify with their avatar. They don't feel confortable with people referring to them as female if they are male or vice versa.

I dont have any such qualms. I roll male or female characters based on what I think looks coolest for the class. Sounds like you are the same.

But I know that not everyone is like me. I know a few girls who excusively play female characters. It's just the way they like it and the way they can identify with their character. And I think that too many gender restricted careers would be very unfair to these gamers. If the Black Guard was male-only they would be forced to play male if they wanted a tank on destruction side.
Don't you see a problem with that? Or at least see why people would have a problem with that?

Just because they want to play female and want to be on destruction side they have a lot less to choose from.

Don't you think it's unfair that players on one faction are so much more restricted in their character creation options? Thats a major faction imbalance right there...

[Freax]

There should be female Black Guards... Destruction needs armor-clad chicks.

[Thoden Firehammer]

There should be female Black Guards... Destruction needs armor-clad chicks.


We already know how much you care for the lore on which the game has been made, but for once I agree, give them ladies and people who want to play ladies a tank choice.

However as for me, i'll be on my Dwarf.

[1337mojo]

Liber Chaotica ..Man that was easy...



oh and about this
I think she could
http://www.tamiloviam.com/img/WomenMuscle.jpg
And her
http://www.urod.ru/files/hvhv7655.jpg
And her
http://www.upcheer.com/images/musclewomen/musclewomen2.jpg
Oh and her
http://www.upcheer.com/images/musclewomen/musclewomen7.jpg

Ok now I need something to get thoes immages out of my mind....
Oh and for the record, I don't care about this equality crap, I just like making people eat their own foot....:cool:

I HATE YOU!!!!!!
(/me is scarred for life.)

[Thoden Firehammer]

I HATE YOU!!!!!!
(/me is scarred for life.)

That ones a bit late, oh ... and no problem 8-)

[Freax]

We already know how much you care for the lore on which the game has been made, but for once I agree, give them ladies and people who want to play ladies a tank choice.

However as for me, i'll be on my Dwarf.
Lol, I would still trade up some lore to avoid the sight of a million guys dressed as woman in tight leather spandex :shock:

[Tonev]

This is why I would like to restate what I said previously in this thread.
Male only BGs would mean no female tanks on Destruction side. None.
No option for someone wanting to play a female character and play a tank. Anyone wanting to do that would have to go Order. I'm willing to bet this would not help Destruction, the "Evil" side, in terms of faction balance. Because a lot of male gamers like to play female characters, and most female player like to play female characters.
The reason why someone would like to be a female tank on Destruction side does not matter. They should be able to if they want to. Because completely restricting a whole class role on a whole faction to one gender would be going too far. The Order side would be too far ahead when it comes to options. It would be bad game design for an MMORPG. The avatar might not matter to some people, but it does matter to a lot of people.

So once again. Male only Black Guards would be a very very very bad idea.




Did I mention I think it would be a bad idea? Because it would be. Very.


I disagree with this, there are not enough females in the whole MMO universe to make a big difference when it comes to faction balance in a game. People will flock to what they think is the "FOTM, UBERZ PWN" race or career in the game regardless of gender. I still find people's argument over this kinda questioneable, as I see it, the only people wanting to play female "Black Guards" in the game are real life guys (I still haven't seen any real life female make any statements).

In every game I have played dating back to 82-84, every body wants to play the good guys or heroes of the game and only play the bad guys when they have a distinct advantage, due to developer's intervention.

[Blaze]

I disagree with this, there are not enough females in the whole MMO universe to make a big difference when it comes to faction balance in a game. People will flock to what they think is the "FOTM, UBERZ PWN" race or career in the game regardless of gender. I still find people's argument over this kinda questioneable, as I see it, the only people wanting to play female "Black Guards" in the game are real life guys (I still haven't seen any real life female make any statements).

In every game I have played dating back to 82-84, every body wants to play the good guys or heroes of the game and only play the bad guys when they have a distinct advantage, due to developer's intervention.

Like I said, it does not matter why someone wants to be female tank on the destruction side. They should be able to.
If there are female Swordmasters, Knights of the Blazing Sun and not to mention Ironbreakers on the Order side. Why should Destruction have no option for those that want it. This is an MMORPG they are making. People are supposed to have some freedom in creating their character.

Oh and I think you underestimate the number of female players. 16% of WoW players are female according to surveys. Thats a minority yes, but a fairly sizeable minority. And the numer of female gamers is increasing all the time. I honestly thought there were more than 16%, when I think how many I have met just in WoW (and known to be female, unless a lot of guys manage to sound like the Smooth Operator over Ventrilo :D)

[Sinfjotle]

I still find people's argument over this kinda questioneable, as I see it, the only people wanting to play female "Black Guards" in the game are real life guys (I still haven't seen any real life female make any statements).

Hi.

Remember that most women play with a boyfriend/husband, and most women exclusively play female characters.

16/4 = 4% (in reality it might be more or less of course, lots of people don't like to play healers and more like to play DDs) let's say 2% of them have boyfriends that play with them, so 6% moves to the Order side and you got yourself a 12% difference between order and chaos. That's sort of significant.

Also, your post implies that a girl's choice is more important than a guy's, that's just a silly way of thinking.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

A lot of people like to play thier own gender. They identify with their avatar. They don't feel confortable with people referring to them as female if they are male or vice versa.

I dont have any such qualms. I roll male or female characters based on what I think looks coolest for the class. Sounds like you are the same.

But I know that not everyone is like me. I know a few girls who excusively play female characters. It's just the way they like it and the way they can identify with their character. And I think that too many gender restricted careers would be very unfair to these gamers. If the Black Guard was male-only they would be forced to play male if they wanted a tank on destruction side.
Don't you see a problem with that? Or at least see why people would have a problem with that?

Just because they want to play female and want to be on destruction side they have a lot less to choose from.

Don't you think it's unfair that players on one faction are so much more restricted in their character creation options? Thats a major faction imbalance right there...
oh believe me, i dont got any problems with black guard being female too, and i can see the problem with being forced to play order if they want to play a female tank.

what i originally ment, is that i really dont care if i play a male or female avatar.
i dont choose female because there female, but because i often find them to have better animations (in WoW, blood elf females animations look 10x better then male be rogues, guess which i chose?)
so whereas i know it would be a bit dumb, i dont see why you would have to roll order then.
if the class appeals to you, just roll it male then...thats how i see it

[Yavvy]

Oh and I think you underestimate the number of female players. 16% of WoW players are female according to surveys. Thats a minority yes, but a fairly sizeable minority. And the numer of female gamers is increasing all the time. I honestly thought there were more than 16%, when I think how many I have met just in WoW (and known to be female, unless a lot of guys manage to sound like the Smooth Operator over Ventrilo :D)
Actually, that turns in on itself - if they don't care about female players, female players are less likely to play the game, so they get less reason to care about us etc. And the other way around as well.

No female Chosen and Marauders didn't exactly make me want to play the game more. I'll still play it, if it becomes as good as it seems, but on the Order side - along with my bf and probably some friends.

[Blaze]

Actually, that turns in on itself - if they don't care about female players, female players are less likely to play the game, so they get less reason to care about us etc. And the other way around as well.

Indeed. And I think they are foolish if they alienate potential customers.

No female Chosen and Marauders didn't exactly make me want to play the game more. I'll still play it, if it becomes as good as it seems, but on the Order side - along with my bf and probably some friends.

Thats my main problem with this whole thing. The Order side gets it so much better when it comes to options. It will have an affect on population balance. Hopefully not a major one. But when you consider that the evil side usually needs all the help it can get to attract players... This aint exactly helping :-|

[Thrakkesh]

The best thing about saying that "Mythic is pushing away female players" is there is no way to verify that one way or another, and I know of several close examples of female gamers who responded to the whole male-only thing with a disinterested shrug--and they're still interested in the game.

Seriously, that argument is flimsy as it gets.

And I'd still be shocked if Black Guard were male only. I really, REALLY don't think it's going to happen here, people.

[Tonev]

I honestly thought there were more than 16%, when I think how many I have met just in WoW (and known to be female, unless a lot of guys manage to sound like the Smooth Operator over Ventrilo :D)
Yeah, we were fooled like that to a guy used a program "Morphx" that changed his voice on ventrillo, had us fooled for awhile til the leader downloaded and used it one day (hey that voice sounds like "Stella":D).

On that note, the biggest female population for MMO games was found to play in "Second Life" and "The Sims", which was kinda shocking considering those games mimic real life more than other MMOS (who wants to play a game that mimics real life:confused:).

Well, I'm not objectioneable to it, to be honest and have said if "GW" is alright with it then"who am I to argue:razz:". I think, if it goes against things seen throughout the history and development of the Warhammer franchise that has lead up to the creation of this MMO, the developers should do some serious soul searching in breaking the traditions that have made Warhammer stories,art and the models what they are today.

Again, I am happy with their decisions so far with everything they have went with in this game and know they have reasons for everything.

P.S.

I have never played a game that has been balanced with good and evil faction and stand by the fact that everyone wants to play the goody two shoe of the stories or the UBER PWNS careers.

[Blaze]

Yeah, we were fooled like that to a guy used a program "Morphx" that changed his voice on ventrillo, had us fooled for awhile til the leader downloaded and used it one day (hey that voice sounds like "Stella":D).

All I can say is... lol :D

I guess I dont know if all my ingame female friends are really girls.

Well I know some of them are. The ones I met at our guildmeet. Unless they had extensive plastic surgery. But that guildmeet was in Poland (Krakov) and the booze was cheap so we were pretty drunk whenever we werent beeing nerdy and talking about WoW. I think I might have been drunk enough to mistake some guy for a girl...

Aaargh I need to get these images out of my head! Thanks a lot Tonev! :p

[Ralzar]

As for Chaos, the majority of people that argue there's 'lore' for it either have taken said lore out of context or otherwise concocted flimsy argument.

Let me just quote the Tome Of Corruption:

Warriors of Chaos are those men and women who throw in their lot with the hordes that muster in the Chaos Wastes.

Female chaos warriors are a part of the Warhammer lore. I don't see why anyone bothers arguing agaisnt that. Is it a big part of the lore? No. But it's there, and that's a lot more than you can say for most other classes in the game who do allow females.


Edit: And just so it's clear, I really don't care all that much that there aren't female chosen. It's not like you get special female chaos warrior models for the TT after all.
But I'm just annoyed by people saying that the decision was made because of lore.

[Thrakkesh]

I'm sorry I didn't repeat myself for the umpteenth time, but I had merely pointed out that they were sufficiently rare that 'leaving them out' is a justified decision.

[Yavvy]

I'm sorry I didn't repeat myself for the umpteenth time, but I had merely pointed out that they were sufficiently rare that 'leaving them out' is a justified decision.
And where does it say they're rare?

Just because Chaos Warriors are most often decipted as male, doesn't mean most of them are. Assuming they are makes as much sense as seeing a field with black sheep, and then assuming all sheep are black (or that white sheep are so rare they don't matter).

[Draculrom]

whereas i dont got any problem with a class being female only restricted, it being not restricted at all, i couldn't care less.

however, im amazed at the amount of people who wont play the class if there isn't a female option.

imo, i find it to be pretty stubborn.
if i would be interested in the witch elf arche type class, i would play it, couldn't care less i can t play a male.


Thats what im saying, these dudes need to grow some balls and play a male class for once.

[Sinfjotle]

What about us that'd rather keep our ovaries?

[Draculrom]

What about us that'd rather keep our ovaries?


The vast majority of people complaining are males wanting to play a female class...

[Thrakkesh]

And where does it say they're rare?

Just because Chaos Warriors are most often decipted as male, doesn't mean most of them are. Assuming they are makes as much sense as seeing a field with black sheep, and then assuming all sheep are black (or that white sheep are so rare they don't matter).


Where does it say they're prolific?

And your analogy is flawed in that it assumes that a person sees a single herd of Black sheep and goes "Huh, all sheep are Black." In the case of several modeling ranges, stories, back story fluffs, artwork, and just about all GW intellectual property you can think of, female Chaos CHOSEN or even Marauders are rarely talked about or depicted. They get a passing mention in Tome of Corruption (which by the way, is not necessairly 100% canon--remember that Malal was born out of WHFRP and Games Workshop insists he does not exist at all.) To use the analogy, if I saw nothing but herds of sheep that were white, with only the rare sheep being black inter-spersed amongst them--say, 1 out of 10,000 (in an ironic twist, I haven't actually ever seen a Black sheep.) I'd be inclined to say "Yeah, black sheep are pretty rare." I'd even go so far as to believe that NPC status only isn't totally unbelieveable.

If we were RPing sheep, anyway. If you'll excuse me, I'm going to go copyright that.

[Sinfjotle]

The vast majority of people complaining are males wanting to play a female class...


What does that have to do with my point?

[Ralzar]

In the case of several modeling ranges, stories, back story fluffs, artwork, and just about all GW intellectual property you can think of, female Chaos CHOSEN or even Marauders are rarely talked about or depicted.

And that's fine. I completely agree that female chosen/marauders are a very small part of the lore. However, the same could be said about female Empire and Dwarf classes. Saying you didn't include female chosen/merauders because of lore is a bit hypocritical after you've included female options for dwarfs/empire. That's all I'm really saying.


They get a passing mention in Tome of Corruption (which by the way, is not necessairly 100% canon--remember that Malal was born out of WHFRP and Games Workshop insists he does not exist at all.)

Malal was concieved and owned by a guy that used to work for GW. But when he left, he took the rights to Malal with him. That's why he doesn't exist anymore. Not in the WFB or WRPG. He's removed from the lore.

Edit: I speel gud.

[Bork]

I guess that's why anything you come up with while working for GW belongs to GW these days.

[Thrakkesh]

Ral: From what I heard it had nothing to do with him owning Malal and everything to do with GW higher ups thinking it was a completely stupid idea. I'd be fairly surprised if that were true because frankly it was just like he said: GW owns whatever IP is made by their company-men, and I can't believe there was a period where that wasn't the case.

More to the point, what you say about Empire is definitly not true. Besides several being 'female' in secondary and teritary roles (Priests of Shallya, for example, I.E. That bit in Liber Chaotica from a priest of Shallya) there have been stories involving and pertaining to things like Female Witch Hunters/Mages and the like. There is also the army feel to consider, something quite intangible, as the presence of females in plate mail/magery/Witch Hunter-y, etc probably wouldn't be quite as different as say, female Chosen, who would have to look drastically different.

The question we then have to ask is how different and more importantly, did they look good? People seem to forget that one of the reasons they were nixed is because Mythic said that it didn't look right when they attempted to design it. I'll ask again: What would you rather have? a sex-clad bombshell counterpart to the Chaos Chosen, looking jarring and ridiculously? Because I'd guess a good 90% of the same people arguing for female Chaos would complain that the women didn't look like the giant, tough men. Assuming Mythic didn't go down that road (given their work on the other classes I'd say it's a safe bet) what if they just looked... odd? Wrong? Just plain dumb? Would you rather have horrible female models detracting from the overall game just so you can say "My Chosen is a girl!"

While Dwarves are certainly at odds with what we've seen so far, it's not as hard a stretch--truthfully, the Dwarven females look well designed and fit in just fine. We've never seen the attempts at female chaos, nor will we ever.

Finally, I point out (yet again) that all these decisions must be approved by Games Workshop. If Games Workshop has approved it... what do you think that means?

[Diabolix]

as the presence of females in plate mail/magery/Witch Hunter-y, etc probably wouldn't be quite as different as say, female Chosen, who would have to look drastically different.

The question we then have to ask is how different and more importantly, did they look good? People seem to forget that one of the reasons they were nixed is because Mythic said that it didn't look right when they attempted to design it. I'll ask again: What would you rather have? a sex-clad bombshell counterpart to the Chaos Chosen, looking jarring and ridiculously? Because I'd guess a good 90% of the same people arguing for female Chaos would complain that the women didn't look like the giant, tough men. Assuming Mythic didn't go down that road (given their work on the other classes I'd say it's a safe bet) what if they just looked... odd? Wrong? Just plain dumb? Would you rather have horrible female models detracting from the overall game just so you can say "My Chosen is a girl!"

While Dwarves are certainly at odds with what we've seen so far, it's not as hard a stretch--truthfully, the Dwarven females look well designed and fit in just fine. We've never seen the attempts at female chaos, nor will we ever.

Finally, I point out (yet again) that all these decisions must be approved by Games Workshop. If Games Workshop has approved it... what do you think that means?

Wow I never thought of the chosen in that way, come to think of it I understand why now and it makes me think that there will be female black guards.

Look at it like this:

Empire tank Class Male: Tall and has some nice developed muscles
Empire tank Class Female: Only difference is body shape other than that she has muscles and is tall

Chaos Chosen Male: Huge, big fat muscles EVERYWHERE Wide chest, Muscles for a neck.
Chaos Chosen Female: its almost impossible for a female to get like that without looking like a guy. Women have smaller hips and shoulders big beefy males like the chosen have massive shoulders and hips so if a female could get hers like that what would she look like? she would look like a big beefy male... so then what would be the point in making a female which looks like a male...

I know dwarves are short and fat and so are their women and they still look like females because they don't have beards and the face shape is different. Chaos Chosen wear helmets and their trait is not impossible for a female to have. As for the Marauder they have a mutated arm and muscles and are pretty much as wide as a chosen just a little shorter I think.

Anyway now I have a really good feeling that there will be female black guards because you can make a female version without much drastic change, Just add breasts some hair and some curves.

[Iwaxmybelly]

This class has appealed to me greatly after reading about it but I know for one that I will not play it if it doesn't have a female option (which I am sure it will have). Not because I don't have balls, I don't have to play a male character to feel secure with myself. It's just that I am really picky about how my character will look. I can't stand playing a character that doesn't look cool. And frankly (No offense here) I think that dark elves males look like wimps. The sort that'd go cry if you slapped them to hard. I know they wouldn't but in my opinion they look like they would.

[Exion]

From a strict lore standpoint I don't think female Blackgaurds would be in. I wouldn't mind if they bent the lore alittle though and let them in. The class looks awesome,and destruction not allowing any female tanks seems kind of unfair to female players.

[Noli me Tangere]

From a strict lore standpoint I don't think female Blackgaurds would be in. I wouldn't mind if they bent the lore alittle though and let them in. The class looks awesome,and destruction not allowing any female tanks seems kind of unfair to female players.

I'd agree with this if you didn't specify "female" players; male or female.. I think everyone that likes options would suffer from further gender restriction. Regardless of their own gender.

[SharderBlade]

Get real fool, a womens back would break from wearing armor that thick and heavy, A women as black guard ....its really unrealistic. Malekiths peronal guards are the toughest strongest and meanest. Doesn't look like something a women could handle May sound sexist but anyways, get real thats how it is props to mythic for not giving in to this modern day equality illusion. Besides the guy pointed out earlier that they where eldest sons of some nobility. Another good reason to be male only.


Think of it this way, name one women that would beat Frank Dux, Fedor Emelianenko, or even Mike Tyson. Those guys are like Chosen of our world, its unrealistic for any women to be to par with men of that power. Even in a damn fantasy game... Dont flame mythic for wanting a lil realism in their game.


You know what else is unrealistic?




The whole game.

[Yavvy]

Where does it say they're prolific?

And your analogy is flawed in that it assumes that a person sees a single herd of Black sheep and goes "Huh, all sheep are Black." In the case of several modeling ranges, stories, back story fluffs, artwork, and just about all GW intellectual property you can think of, female Chaos CHOSEN or even Marauders are rarely talked about or depicted. They get a passing mention in Tome of Corruption (which by the way, is not necessairly 100% canon--remember that Malal was born out of WHFRP and Games Workshop insists he does not exist at all.) To use the analogy, if I saw nothing but herds of sheep that were white, with only the rare sheep being black inter-spersed amongst them--say, 1 out of 10,000 (in an ironic twist, I haven't actually ever seen a Black sheep.) I'd be inclined to say "Yeah, black sheep are pretty rare." I'd even go so far as to believe that NPC status only isn't totally unbelieveable.

If we were RPing sheep, anyway. If you'll excuse me, I'm going to go copyright that.So you're saying that just because black sheep are rare, we shouldn't be able to play them?

Anyway now I have a really good feeling that there will be female black guards because you can make a female version without much drastic change, Just add breasts some hair and some curves.You could do that with the Chosen too, just removing a little muscle mass as well. http://www.secretlivesofmobs.com/index.php?strip_id=21 does it quite well, I think, definitely passable as both Chosen and woman.

As for marauders, I've actually drawn a few of them myself (I know I'm not an artist):
http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=norskmarauderrl4.jpg
http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mattemarauderty6.jpg
http://img443.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kjemimarauderzf8.jpg

Again, you can see that they're Marauders, you can see that they're women, and I wouldn't say they look dumb.

[Diabolix]

Tut tut, over your maths work! :O!
The marauders look a bit naked, the top half reminds me of Jodie Marsh (http://delivery.viewimages.com/xv/74163756.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1933D389E1A66A4898627E1A9C2F0952AF5 C5F7BE74998492DA)

I know the male ones show of their top half but it represents masculinity and power.

Maybe I will throw in some sketches later of how I think female marauders would look like, also black guard :P

[eumenide]

Putting everything aside, the reason you wont see any new artwork or any gameplay vids is cause its in the works and they are deciding right now wether it to be male only or female which is why you originally only saw 1 picture of the class itself.

But I stand by my earlier claims 100% regardless of what you all say.



To the guy who called me out on the heavyweight fighters, think of it this way, why would a choas god bless anyone weak? Dont you think he would bless the biggest and the baddest in the lands? So is it a far shot to compare them to some RL fighters who are the best? A choas god would bless them above just some random female wannabe fighter? Aside from that I noticed in my gameplay experience there isn't many females who play tanks to begin with. Theres Males who play females and ive seen plenty of them. But mostly I never really met any real chicks playing tank classes. So i assume all the people ing and complaining about not getting to play a chick tank wanted to play one to begin with. I say grow some balls suck it up and play a man class for once.

Ummm, wow, both your hubris and your ignorance damn near leave me speechless. I like to tank, have tanked before, and I am thinking of changing my mind to play a blackguard due to the fact that my husband wants to play a witch elf and it might be rather tricky to play together if we are separate races in separate areas.

Do I mind playing a male toon to play the class? Not at all. Just the same as my husband does not mind playing a female to play the class that appeals to him and indeed reminds him of an old and beloved character from the past. We play what is fun for us, it is that simple.

For the record, this 'chick tank' has neither feathers nor balls and I do not anticipate growing either at anytime in the future. What I do have is the ability to play a man much better than you can judging by your juvenile statements.

[Selandri]

Chaos Army Book, canon yeah? Oh wow, it mentions females in the Chaos armies. Does it say "They are a minority"? No, it gives the impression it's fairly normal for the women to fight. Don't go into the whole 'Oh they'd be too weak', fighting is not at all based on strength alone, plus with the Chaos Gods, the strength you're born with is such a tiny part of what you become.

As to the God argument, Tzeentchs edicts: Go against the norm whenever possible. So hey, another point for Tzeentch female Chosen.

That said the discussion has been done over and over, this is about female Black Guards. There is no reason whatsoever to deny female tanks the chance to play a Black Guard. Elves are slender anyway so the silhouette will not suffer, the only lore pertaining to their gender is murky at best.

[Draculrom]

Chaos Army Book, canon yeah? Oh wow, it mentions females in the Chaos armies. Does it say "They are a minority"? No, it gives the impression it's fairly normal for the women to fight. Don't go into the whole 'Oh they'd be too weak', fighting is not at all based on strength alone, plus with the Chaos Gods, the strength you're born with is such a tiny part of what you become.

As to the God argument, Tzeentchs edicts: Go against the norm whenever possible. So hey, another point for Tzeentch female Chosen.

That said the discussion has been done over and over, this is about female Black Guards. There is no reason whatsoever to deny female tanks the chance to play a Black Guard. Elves are slender anyway so the silhouette will not suffer, the only lore pertaining to their gender is murky at best.

Choas chosen or marauder would look stupid and wrong. People would just about the graphics and the looks.

Black guards are male only by lore, and if lore makes this game great then they must follow it.

[Diabolix]

Ummm, wow, both your hubris and your ignorance damn near leave me speechless. I like to tank, have tanked before, and I am thinking of changing my mind to play a blackguard due to the fact that my husband wants to play a witch elf and it might be rather tricky to play together if we are separate races in separate areas.

:P Like most couples who play together they want to be together or like me and my gf she might play witch elf or black guard but she only likes playing female avatars and I only like playing male. I'm not bothered with how others want to play their avatars genders, just wanted some explaining :P

What I do have is the ability to play a man much better than you can judging by your juvenile statements.

KUDOS TO THAT!
(that is worthy of a Signature quote)

~EDIT~
Female black guard (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/00berman/FemaleBlackGuard.png)

You can see its perfectly fine logically for a female to wear plated armour, just has to be designed right ;)

and to the Marauder fans I'm sorry I tried hard and couldn't get you no females that look right :(

P.S I KNOW I'M NOT A GOOD DRAWER don't criticise me on that just wanted to try show how it is logical for a female to wear Plated Metal armour. <Yes Boob plates made me lol ^_^>

[WarMachine]

Ummm, wow, both your hubris and your ignorance damn near leave me speechless. I like to tank, have tanked before, and I am thinking of changing my mind to play a blackguard due to the fact that my husband wants to play a witch elf and it might be rather tricky to play together if we are separate races in separate areas.

Do I mind playing a male toon to play the class? Not at all. Just the same as my husband does not mind playing a female to play the class that appeals to him and indeed reminds him of an old and beloved character from the past. We play what is fun for us, it is that simple.

For the record, this 'chick tank' has neither feathers nor balls and I do not anticipate growing either at anytime in the future. What I do have is the ability to play a man much better than you can judging by your juvenile statements.
Well said, but please don't feed the Trolls.

[eumenide]

Well said, but please don't feed the Trolls.

Good point. I admit that one just rubbed me the wrong way, particularly after playing with 'leet doodz' in WoW for far too long.

Cheers!

[WarMachine]

~EDIT~
Female black guard (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/00berman/FemaleBlackGuard.png)

You can see its perfectly fine logically for a female to wear plated armour, just has to be designed right ;)

and to the Marauder fans I'm sorry I tried hard and couldn't get you no females that look right :(

P.S I KNOW I'M NOT A GOOD DRAWER don't criticise me on that just wanted to try show how it is logical for a female to wear Plated Metal armour. <Yes Boob plates made me lol ^_^>

LOL, its called a breast plate for both male and female. But what a Dev said in the BG podcast in the newsletter led me to beleive that their would be female BG and would fit in lore. I will paraphase it but it went something like this: The DE relised that their force would not be strong enough to take the land from the HEs, so they beefed up the BG. Adding many more DE to the ranks of the BG to make it a large fighting force. This leaves me to believe that the would allow female DEs to join the BG.

[Kellaris]

LOL, its called a breast plate for both male and female. But what a Dev said in the BG podcast in the newsletter led me to beleive that their would be female BG and would fit in lore. I will paraphase it but it went something like this: The DE relised that their force would not be strong enough to take the land from the HEs, so they beefed up the BG. Adding many more DE to the ranks of the BG to make it a large fighting force. This leaves me to believe that the would allow female DEs to join the BG.

Well, what Paul said in BG movie is not exactly what we know from the lore.
Personally, I do not like this stuff with mindless, porridge eating idiots, nor the second version with kids thrown to the pit. I prefer posh people that gone bad.

And if M. would like to make BG male only, someone should remind them about their own words. About takeing themselfs too seriously. And creating world, not a game.

[Yavvy]

Tut tut, over your maths work! :O!
The marauders look a bit naked, the top half reminds me of Jodie Marsh (http://delivery.viewimages.com/xv/74163756.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1933D389E1A66A4898627E1A9C2F0952AF5 C5F7BE74998492DA)

I know the male ones show of their top half but it represents masculinity and power.And so the women shouldn't?

Add shoulders, scars, maybe trophies, and it would look alot better.

[Diabolix]

LOL, its called a breast plate for both male and female.

If you look at the male black guard you can clearly see he is wearing a Cuirass same with the black guard and Black orc, what's the difference? A Cuirass covers your whole chest and back rather than the breastplate which covers just your breasts strangely enough.

As for the marauder I will upload my version for the females soon so just hold up there.

but I am telling you they look weird ^_^

And so the women shouldn't?

Add shoulders, scars, maybe trophies, and it would look alot better.

The women shouldn't look like Jodie marsh because a blood thirsty chaos marauder who has limps that mutate shouldn't look like a model who is an attention seeker...

[Evil_Sandwich]

I have to say...

I am into a woman with a solid mutation

Crab Claws to be exact.

[Yavvy]

The women shouldn't look like Jodie marsh because a blood thirsty chaos marauder who has limps that mutate shouldn't look like a model who is an attention seeker...I meant, why does she have to look like a model for not wearing very much clothes... the men don't.

[Diabolix]

I meant, why does she have to look like a model for not wearing very much clothes... the men don't.

I said the top half reminded me off Jodie marsh, the whole strap over boobs thing, I was thinking more like a leather vest with fur and stuff (as they are barbarians) other then that it would be okay but the helms on the females never look right for me, except for the chaos magus they seem to have elegant ones but the marauder seem to have really masculine and brutish ones.

Anyway Keep on topic

Black guards not chosen or marauders :P

[Gorge]

Just read this entire thread in one sitting. I find it amusing that whenever someone says lore supports a male-only Black Guard they're also the same people that disreguard lore that supports female Chaos warriors. If these are the people are on my side I might just be making that Witch Hunter after all...

[Vaylone]

Just read this entire thread in one sitting. I find it amusing that whenever someone says lore supports a male-only Black Guard they're also the same people that disreguard lore that supports female Chaos warriors. If these are the people are on my side I might just be making that Witch Hunter after all...

Usually people don't care about Lore, and each player base has a critical flaw.

I'll use WoW as an example. The Alliance were immature, childish, and hero want-to-bes. The horde were angsty teenagers who wanted to by villains.

No matter where you go, there's always a flaw in the base, just be happy with what you have. >_>

[Nagahyde316]

Being that I am actually female and damn proud of it I would honestly and truly love to play a Black Guard. But until I get definitive proof that they will indeed be female allowed I'll keep to WE. (Oh God please let them be female allowed)

[Thoden Firehammer]

Usually people don't care about Lore, and each player base has a critical flaw.

I'll use WoW as an example. The Alliance were immature, childish, and hero want-to-bes. The horde were angsty teenagers who wanted to by villains.

No matter where you go, there's always a flaw in the base, just be happy with what you have. >_>

I really wouldn't say most, atleast not yet, still a good ammount of people on these forums care about the lore, it's only been just recently that with the newer members that feelings about not caring for the lore has come up.

Now when this game comes out most people probably wont care about the lore, but thne again the game will have already been out.

[Xurré]

...I'll keep to WE. (Oh God please let them be female allowed)
I'm fairly certain that Witch Elves will be female allowed.

Fairly certain.


- Xurré

[Nagahyde316]

I'm fairly certain that Witch Elves will be female allowed.

Fairly certain.


- Xurré

Oops thanks for catching my slip Xurre...I mean I'm hoping for female Black Guards. I know the Witch Elves are female. Now I shall return to my re-reading of Malus Darkblade at work.

[Vaylone]

I don't think you have to worry about it. They're probably going to balance Destruction by letting half (if not all) Dark Elves be female.

But it's all speculation until we hear officially about it.

[dynamo112]

~EDIT~
Female black guard (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/00berman/FemaleBlackGuard.png)

You can see its perfectly fine logically for a female to wear plated armour, just has to be designed right ;)

and to the Marauder fans I'm sorry I tried hard and couldn't get you no females that look right :(

P.S I KNOW I'M NOT A GOOD DRAWER don't criticise me on that just wanted to try show how it is logical for a female to wear Plated Metal armour. <Yes Boob plates made me lol ^_^>


LOL!! LOL @ boob plates!!:D

[Dracallo]

Here how about this...

If the lore says that witch elves are female only...

the lore also says black guard is male only... :D

If they also followed the lore and made sorcerers female only ( like they should)

Then there would be 2 female only classes and one male only class in the dark elves.

If they made the 4th class an archer class and made it for both gender wouldnt that be a sense of balance, not only to the dark elves but for females in the game??? :confused:

[Soriin]

They said in a video they were going to try to make male Witch Elves but they looked a little too...yeah...So they scrapped the idea.

I think they seriously need to have female BG's or Destruction will be hurt quite a bit for not having any female tank classes. My girlfriend likes to play tanks and she's already only left with BG's, if they become male only...sadness ensues...

It's not just about having enough female-able classes, but being able to be both sexes for each archetype on both sides. That is something I think they should be striving to have.

[Dracallo]

I cant say I would be heart broken if they made the BG dual gender, But it just wouldnt go with the lore of WH...

You are right...There should be a destruction female tank, but I think the Black Guard is the wrong choice. Hands down.

Of all the races I think the dark elves are hardest stuck in their traditions and would be the hardest to go agaisnt due to their hostile nature.

As great as the witch elves are I think the BG is the male equivalant.

[WarMachine]

I cant say I would be heart broken if they made the BG dual gender, But it just wouldnt go with the lore of WH....

But it does go with the newer lore of WAR. Its been stated a few times on here that the DEs are greatly increasing the size of the BG for the assault, which to make the size bigger I'm sure they would include females of able fighting capibilities. And if that managed to pass by GWs scrutiny, I'm sure its ok.

[Dracallo]

I guess we can all wait another month or so to find out for certain. :neutral:

[pooter26]

Malelith's personal body guards female? lawl Witchelf kaythx

[Iwaxmybelly]

Having female black guards is perfectly logical in my opinion, of all the races elves have the most females in their armies.

Malelith's personal body guards female?

Now I'm not a dark elf lore specialist but doesn't Malekith distrust males because of some prophecy?

[Kharlene]

It would stupid for Mythic to restrict Destruction side any further than have class/gender wise. Because as it stands, there is no class where female is a tank. Personally, though I generally play casters, but it's far from uncommon for me to play a tank, I tend to eventually play all classes in every MMO I play, or at the very least - aside from my main the class I want to play - I'll create a class that my guild or the realm at large tends to be lacking, and this was tank classes. Playing Hibernia on Nimue server back in the day on DAoC, my main was a light eldy, but I also played a lw/s/s Heroine because my guild need another tank (and both were rr7, and this is during the SI before the RP (Realm Point) increase), and I've played tanks numerous times in other gamers as well, and I do enjoy it. So I'll be a bit... irked... to put it lightly if Mythic chooses to go the retard route and make BGs male-only as well. And I don't imagine it'd be much different for any other girls who wish to play a female tank class on Destruction side. Because I don't know about some of you, but I prefer to play my own gender. Besides, just on a marketing level it would be foolish for them to restrict classes gender-wise. Why? Glad you asked! This is why:

Thirty eight percent of all gamers in the United States and forty five percent of all gamers in the United Kingdom are women. In the United states, "women over the age of 18 represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (30%) than boys age 17 or younger (23%)."

The source? Why sure! It's http://xfire.com/cms/xf_debate/

So really alienating the female gaming population which is on the rise, which includes the female gamer population that plays MMOs, like myself, more so = very stupid...

[Feigro]

You can see its perfectly fine logically for a female to wear plated armour, just has to be designed right ;)

Female armor doesn't require a "boob plate". It just needs to fit their form (http://www.jetrefilm.com/shroud1_lo-res.jpg).

[Chielz0r]

Thirty eight percent of all gamers in the United States and forty five percent of all gamers in the United Kingdom are women. In the United states, "women over the age of 18 represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (30%) than boys age 17 or younger (23%)."

The source? Why sure! It's http://xfire.com/cms/xf_debate/

So really alienating the female gaming population which is on the rise, which includes the female gamer population that plays MMOs, like myself, more so = very stupid...

Sadly a large part of the female gamers restrict themselfs to games like the Sims though.
There are only 2 games I know of that some girls play and those are the Sims and WoW, most girls I knew in WoW hated pvp, which this game is mostly about, so I don't expect too many female gamers in this game, especially on Destruction side.

[Dracallo]

Sadly a large part of the female gamers restrict themselfs to games like the Sims though.
There are only 2 games I know of that some girls play and those are the Sims and WoW, most girls I knew in WoW hated pvp, which this game is mostly about, so I don't expect too many female gamers in this game, especially on Destruction side.


More reason why the BG should be male only

[Kellaris]

It would stupid for Mythic to restrict Destruction side any further than have class/gender wise.


It was also stupid to restrict chosen and marauder. But they did it. Noone is perfect.

[Selendor]

More reason why the BG should be male only

I don't follow.

[Vikingkingq]

I cant say I would be heart broken if they made the BG dual gender, But it just wouldnt go with the lore of WH...


Show me any piece of Lore that isn't a novel that claims that Black Guard are male-only.

[Relentless]

More reason why the BG should be male only
Because of an extremely sexist perception?

[Zunjin]

On the subject, I think BG should be gender neutral to appeal to both females and males who want to play a tank ( only tank infact for females ) on destruction side. Fitting how dark elf females are as sinister and trained for war in the dark elf society as males, the small change in lore would be minor.

For those wondering where it says BG are in fact only male, it is stated in one of gameworkshops books. Browse the forum in similiar treads like this one and you will find the quote somewhere.

[Dracallo]

Because of an extremely sexist perception?

Yes because I am sexist...

Honestly I would rather they make BG male only and the rest of the DE classes could be female only for all I care.

[Kharlene]

Sadly a large part of the female gamers restrict themselfs to games like the Sims though.
There are only 2 games I know of that some girls play and those are the Sims and WoW, most girls I knew in WoW hated pvp, which this game is mostly about, so I don't expect too many female gamers in this game, especially on Destruction side.

Thank you for exclaiming your ignorance, in DAoC the majority of rl female-gamers I ran into was during RvR sessions raiding keeps and about 1/4 of them were playing tanks. Then thinking back to EQ on Rallos Zek and other PvP MMOs I've played, it wasn't much different and that's going by a span of 7+ years of playing MMOs myself and seeing first hand the female gamer population rise.

[Relentless]

Yes because I am sexist...

Honestly I would rather they make BG male only and the rest of the DE classes could be female only for all I care.

Upholding a sexist stereotype tends to leave that impression.

[Kaid]

Because of an extremely sexist perception?
That is the most BS argument ever. Face facts, physically the Male is more superior in the case of overall body strength and the tasks regarding it. If I am in battle and I could either have the male or the female grab a sheild and sword and be a tank I would tell the female to scadaddle.

However, do I think that there should not be female BG's? No! This game and more specifically the entire destruction side is already littered with character restrictions. Any more will most likely turn off people to Destruction as they can not play the way they want to and with that, the largely un-character restricted Order will be more appealing as you can almost be any race that has all open gender/class combinations. I can't remember who but me and him had an arguement about asthetics. His arguement was that is all asthetics and that looks didn't matter squat for gameplay, but it will matter in server population which is more of a direct effect on the gameplay of a PvP game than I can think of. You can make a pretty big list. Numbers Advantage, More Catered Classes (More Whiners Effect), etc would all be tops on mine.

[Kaid]

Thank you for exclaiming your ignorance, in DAoC the majority of rl female-gamers I ran into was during RvR sessions raiding keeps and about 1/4 of them were playing tanks. Then thinking back to EQ on Rallos Zek and other PvP MMOs I've played, it wasn't much different and that's going by a span of 7+ years of playing MMOs myself and seeing first hand the female gamer population rise.
Yeesh excuse him for having conflicting experience's. Because everyone has seen what you have seen and should know about it. :roll:

[Zunjin]

Upholding a sexist stereotype tends to leave that impression.

I think what fails here is that there already are a only female class. Is this also sexism and totally shun at? No it isnt, and I would like it if people tone down their sexist arguments. I have never ever seen a female being treated worse then a male when playing a mmorpg ( atleast not when I have been around ) and it sure aint going to get worse becouse of gender restricted classes ( which is great ) . I just get tired when people mix things from real life that got no place in a game.

[Fusko]

If Black Guards are male-only in the lore, they should be male-only in the game, if they're not just restricted to that gender, then females should be able to play them. Thats really all it should boil down to, honestly.

[Chielz0r]

Thank you for exclaiming your ignorance, in DAoC the majority of rl female-gamers I ran into was during RvR sessions raiding keeps and about 1/4 of them were playing tanks. Then thinking back to EQ on Rallos Zek and other PvP MMOs I've played, it wasn't much different and that's going by a span of 7+ years of playing MMOs myself and seeing first hand the female gamer population rise.

I am just stating my expierence with female gamers I've run into and girls I know irl.
Never played DAoC but in WoW most girls I knew favored pve.
Just saying that women tend to favor the non-violent kind of game if they game at all.

[Relentless]

Yeesh excuse him for having conflicting experience's. Because everyone has seen what you have seen and should know about it. :roll:
It's not so much the conflict of experience as it is the the willingness to generalize about an entire demographic based on very limited personal experience.

[Kaid]

It's not so much the conflict of experience as it is the the willingness to generalize about an entire demographic based on very limited personal experience.
Kharlene seemed very willing to do so however. Luck of the draw is what I use to describe such situations. I have been in Guilds that had no females, to a couple females in WoW and GW. Kharlene's experience despite length is just as valid as Chielz0r's because like it or not, people and their gender you meet in video games is based on chance. Its like this whole Experimental and Hypothetical Probablitiy. He just had a different result.

[Jinsei]

The biggest problem I have with this whole arguement is that female chaos chosen exist in the lore but they didn't make when given the chance. Female Black Guards don't exist in the small amount of lore about them and they're probably gonna make them gender inclusive.

Its not a huge issue, just one that just doesn't sit well with me.

[Relentless]

Kharlene seemed very willing to do so however. Luck of the draw is what I use to describe such situations. I have been in Guilds that had no females, to a couple females in WoW and GW. Kharlene's experience despite length is just as valid as Chielz0r's because like it or not, people adn their gender you meet in video games is based on chance. Its like this whole Experimental and Hypothetical Probablitiy. He just had a different result.
And instead of relaying it as his own personal experience he used it to represent the entire female gaming community. But I'll relent (don't even think the irony of my name and this statement have gone unnoted) on pushing the issue as it would thoroughly deviate the thread from the original topic and would lead the topic headlong into ugly squabbling and an ultimate lock.

[Kharlene]

I am just stating my expierence with female gamers I've run into and girls I know irl.
Never played DAoC but in WoW most girls I knew favored pve.
Just saying that women tend to favor the non-violent kind of game if they game at all.

Which isn't true. Pay close attention to any MMO with PvP in it and you'll see how closely the percentage of women in the game coincides with that statistic, it's a few percent to about ten percent less, but that's still too damn close to make such a broad generalization.

[Thoden Firehammer]

The biggest problem I have with this whole arguement is that female chaos chosen exist in the lore but they didn't make when given the chance. Female Black Guards don't exist in the small amount of lore about them and they're probably gonna make them gender inclusive.

Its not a huge issue, just one that just doesn't sit well with me.


I felt the same way about Mythic giving us Dwarfs non organic mounts (I don't want a mount to begin wtih :P)

And playable female Dwarfs -.-

[Kharlene]

Kharlene seemed very willing to do so however. Luck of the draw is what I use to describe such situations. I have been in Guilds that had no females, to a couple females in WoW and GW. Kharlene's experience despite length is just as valid as Chielz0r's because like it or not, people and their gender you meet in video games is based on chance. Its like this whole Experimental and Hypothetical Probablitiy. He just had a different result.

It's not just luck of the draw, it also comes down to your willingness to actually see the statistics themselves and socialize within the MMO community itself to see first hand the demographic as it rises over time, rather than just broadly make a generalized statement about a demographic based on a handful of people one has encountered, rather than looking at the entire demographic itself that spans millions. I was stating what I have observed and seen of the female-gamer population at large increasing over the years in each MMO that I've played from one game to the next as a female-gamer, rather than just generalize the entire demographic based on merely a few that I've bothered to meet. That's the difference.

As a female-gamer it's something that I like to pay very close attention to, because I'd like to see the population continue to increase, because when I was starting out gaming there were so few, but over the years its still rising and that goes for PvP games as well. So it's foolish to make a broad claim that "girls only hang out in the back and aren't as aggressive" - b.s. I would have liked to seen someone say that one of the girls on Rallos Zek after they've dusted some guy and corpse-looted his pants, or to some of the other girls I knew who played Infiltrators on Mordred ganking some chump while selling vendor trash to one of the merchants, or couple of the girls who play 'locks on Illidan as they life drain tank the crap out of any ally that comes within their sight, and believe me I can go on and on with more examples. Girls have been some of the most "aggressive" and "competitive" PvPers I've ever come across. Haven't you ever heard the phrase "Hell hath no fury like a womans scorn?" Where do you think that comes from for goodness sake? :rolleyes:

[Thoden Firehammer]

Girls have been some of the most "aggressive" and "competitive" PvPers I've ever come across. Haven't you ever heard the phrase "Hell hath no fury like a womans scorn?" Where do you think that comes from for goodness sake?


I'm smelling feminist :P I kid.

But really, I find it ironic that you make that statement that was based off your observation when Chel did the same damn'd thing and you, flammed him.


Just felt like pointing that out

[Lucrece]

I'm smelling feminist :P I kid.

But really, I find it ironic that you make that statement that was based off your observation when Chel did the same damn'd thing and you, flammed him.


Just felt like pointing that out

...And why do you kid? What is wrong with feminists?

P.S. Because Chel does not have the credentials to speak for female gamers.

P.S.S. Kharlene, be careful about how you evaluate aggression in women. I feel that you want to let him know that there are aggressive women, and that some that you've met are one of the best aggressive players. However, depending on how you word it you may be conceding that the accepted patriarchal view of aggressive behavior is also attainable by females in order to reach equality. This is not the way to do it, as you are affirming the inferiority of the traditionally feminine to the traditionally masculine behavior, which only serves to keep women and feminine men in a continued state of perceived inferiority. Yes, some women are aggressive, some are not, which is o.k. too. Some men are aggressive, some are not, which should be o.k. too. When you start taking options and devaluing those that do not fit the establishment is when you leave space open for discrimination and prejudice. Aggression should not be a criteria for measuring good players, skill should.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

Yes because I am sexist...

Honestly I would rather they make BG male only and the rest of the DE classes could be female only for all I care.
Stop being an ignorant prick, what about the players who want a male sorcerer or a male shade/corsair/ba?

you want what you want, and the rest can just find another class?:?

Grow up, the world isn't only about you, ignorant one

[Dracallo]

Stop being an ignorant prick, what about the players who want a male sorcerer or a male shade/corsair/ba?

you want what you want, and the rest can just find another class?:?

Grow up, the world isn't only about you, ignorant one

As long as they hold true to the BG lore I will be happy. :D

[Fusko]

*Sniffs the air*

I can smell 'em (http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_05.php)... can you?

Stop being an ignorant prick, what about the players who want a male sorcerer or a male shade/corsair/ba?

you want what you want, and the rest can just find another class?:???:

Grow up, the world isn't only about you, ignorant one
Name calling wasn't necessary.

And seriously, if you guys & gals would just have some patience, lets have these arguments until after they tell us whether or not the Black Guard will or will not be male only. So far this entire thing has been based off of 1 picture of concept art, so lets not get our panti... err... angry about it.

[Kharlene]

I'm smelling feminist :P I kid.

But really, I find it ironic that you make that statement that was based off your observation when Chel did the same damn'd thing and you, flammed him.


Just felt like pointing that out

Because I was giving him my experience which countered his, plus I backed mine up with the statistics within my first post (though it was speaking more in general population terms than I was) and mentioning how those statistics from the time I started playing have gone on the rise for those 7+ years that I've been playing, and my proof is within merely researching the demographic itself, something I have paid close attention to. I wasn't speaking from just a blatant generalized perception derived from a limited experience, I was speaking from not just my own experience and observation, but actually having followed the demographic for years largely do to having a vested interest in it primarily do to being a part of it myself. Does that really make it ironic? ;)

[Kharlene]

P.S.S. Kharlene, be careful about how you evaluate aggression in women. I feel that you want to let him know that there are aggressive women, and that some that you've met are one of the best aggressive players. However, depending on how you word it you may be conceding that the accepted patriarchal view of aggressive behavior is also attainable by females in order to reach equality. This is not the way to do it, as you are affirming the inferiority of the traditionally feminine to the traditionally masculine behavior, which only serves to keep women and feminine men in a continued state of perceived inferiority. Yes, some women are aggressive, some are not, which is o.k. too. Some men are aggressive, some are not, which should be o.k. too. When you start taking options and devaluing those that do not fit the establishment is when you leave space open for discrimination and prejudice. Aggression should not be a criteria for measuring good players, skill should.

lol I understand, I just take the issue very personally is all. :p

[Chielz0r]

So.. let's take a look at the things I wrote... sigh..

Sadly a large part of the female gamers restrict themselfs to games like the Sims though.

I said a "large part" which is by no means "all".
Though, I based this statement on the fact that the Sims is one of the most succesful games ever and I know for a fact that the vast mayority of the Sims players are women. I know it is about the only game my niece plays..

There are only 2 games I know of that some girls play and those are the Sims and WoW.

Ok, maybe this was abit of a bold statement, I forgot to say that my mother is a big time Doctor Mario player^^ and I once met a girl that liked Tekken Tag.. ironically here name was Kharlena. But yea.. I admit that statement was abit unthought of, not flameworthy though in my opinion.

Most girls I knew in WoW hated pvp, which this game is mostly about, so I don't expect too many female gamers in this game, especially on Destruction side.

I don't have much to say about this one, that's just how the girls I came along in WoW were. Also I knew 4 girls irl who played WoW, they played druid, pala, priest and priest, so all healer in some way, only one of them ever did pvp and only together with her boyfriend. Only one of the 4 played horde (prolly because of her boyfriend).



Haven't you ever heard the phrase "Hell hath no fury like a womans scorn?" Where do you think that comes from for goodness sake? :rolleyes:

Sorry, never heard of it, english isn't my native language. I'm not really at home with foreign expressions.

I'd like to add that I don't like it when people put words in my mounth by saying that I "generalize about an entire demographic" when I'm clearly just stating my personal view on the matter.

[Sinfjotle]

And people are allowed to flat out say your view is wrong.

They shouldn't flame you, but they can still say you're wrong for assuming your, apparently quite small, sample size is representative of the entire female gamer populace.

I don't know many girls that play The Sims often, of course almost everyone has tried the game and probably bought it, but that doesn't mean to much as people that play The Sims often probably don't play MMOs often.

The few MMO gamers, both male and female, I know in real life don't seem to play based off their gender, but off their personality, which isn't entirely dependent on their gender.

[Sethno]

I'd like to add that I don't like it when people put words in my mounth by saying that I "generalize about an entire demographic" when I'm clearly just stating my personal view on the matter.

Sadly a large part of the female gamers restrict themselfs to games like the Sims though.
A person who is stating his or her personal opinion usually starts off the statement with "in my opinion" or maybe "from my experience." Did you do that? No. It's not in anyway clear that you are making a personal opinion. In fact, it's the complete opposite. People didn't put words in your mouth. You were clearly making a generalization whether you meant to or not. A generalization, that in my opinion, is totally inaccurate. I am a male who plays with plenty of females who love PvP and want nothing at all to do with PvE. I, also, have played with plenty of males who love PvE and want nothing to do with PvP. Members of the same gender do not have to think the same.

Also, Kharlene is a female so I think that gives her the right to explain that a lot of females do actually like PvP. She hasn't just had a different experience like Chelzor. She is living it. So no, Kharlene did not commit the same offence as Chelzor did. Sorry Thoden.

-Sethno

[Fusko]

Also, Kharlene is a female so I think that gives her the right to explain that a lot of females do actually like PvP. She hasn't just had a different experience like Chelzor. She is living it. So no, Kharlene did not commit the same offence as Chelzor did. Sorry Thoden.

-Sethno
So, because she is a woman, gives her the right to generalize about how other women play? I dunno if that makes much sense. Sinfjotle had it right, it all just depends on the person.

With that, I'm going to attempt to steer this topic back on track...

I hope not, to be fair on the females that don't want to wear a chain mail bikini or be a caster and don't want to play the realm of Order :grin:

anyone tell me if its legal in terms of Lore for there to be a female Black guard?

Why do I get the impression its male only? well there was concept art for male and female swordmaster and archmage, but only male for black guard...

So, is there any lore that Games Workshop stand behind that says that the Black Guard may be or may not be male only?

[Sinfjotle]

From what I know it's sort of confusing. Black Guards are his personal body guards and a male sorcerer is going to get him, so wouldn't only having female Black Guards be the better option? I mean, strategically, not for the game; however, going slippery slope, why not just kill all males so one cannot rise up against him?

If it's one tiny mention and Mythic decides "No female black guards", I won't be playing on destruction and might not even play the game depending on what the other dark elf classes are.

[WarMachine]

By WAR lore, the dark elves are beefing up the black gaurd for the assualt, so it would seem that they would add female dark elves of able capibilities. So the BG of WAR is not excusive as the BG of WH TT.

[Chielz0r]

of course almost everyone has tried the game and probably bought it, but that doesn't mean to much as people that play The Sims often probably don't play MMOs often.

My point exactly...

[Chielz0r]

A person who is stating his or her personal opinion usually starts off the statement with "in my opinion" or maybe "from my experience." Did you do that? No. It's not in anyway clear that you are making a personal opinion. In fact, it's the complete opposite. People didn't put words in your mouth. You were clearly making a generalization whether you meant to or not. A generalization, that in my opinion, is totally inaccurate. I am a male who plays with plenty of females who love PvP and want nothing at all to do with PvE. I, also, have played with plenty of males who love PvE and want nothing to do with PvP. Members of the same gender do not have to think the same.

Also, Kharlene is a female so I think that gives her the right to explain that a lot of females do actually like PvP. She hasn't just had a different experience like Chelzor. She is living it. So no, Kharlene did not commit the same offence as Chelzor did. Sorry Thoden.

-Sethno

Nope... I said "a large part" NOT "all".. so people were putting words in my mouth...

I never said that there aren't girls that like competitive gaming (read killing each other ingame). I'm sure there are alot.
I just think the ones that dislike it (or never tried it) outnumber the ones that do like it.

Also, I think your logic fails for the reason Fusko stated...

I've commited an offence? ....WHAT?!

[Kharlene]

So.. let's take a look at the things I wrote... sigh..



I said a "large part" which is by no means "all".
Though, I based this statement on the fact that the Sims is one of the most succesful games ever and I know for a fact that the vast mayority of the Sims players are women. I know it is about the only game my niece plays..



Ok, maybe this was abit of a bold statement, I forgot to say that my mother is a big time Doctor Mario player^^ and I once met a girl that liked Tekken Tag.. ironically here name was Kharlena. But yea.. I admit that statement was abit unthought of, not flameworthy though in my opinion.



I don't have much to say about this one, that's just how the girls I came along in WoW were. Also I knew 4 girls irl who played WoW, they played druid, pala, priest and priest, so all healer in some way, only one of them ever did pvp and only together with her boyfriend. Only one of the 4 played horde (prolly because of her boyfriend).





Sorry, never heard of it, english isn't my native language. I'm not really at home with foreign expressions.

I'd like to add that I don't like it when people put words in my mounth by saying that I "generalize about an entire demographic" when I'm clearly just stating my personal view on the matter.


I understand but you do realize in that you are still comparing an entire demographic of millions, if memory serves it's something around 250 million Americans are gamers (could be more, last I heard that statistic was 2 years ago on G4 and it was still rising even then), and 38% of which are women. Do the math... that adds up to being a LOT of female-gamers, do you honestly believe you're doing it any sort of justice by comparing all of them to just those 6 women who you happen to know that play games? That's the major point right there. For each of those 4 girls you know who play WoW, I can cite 4 more to each one of them who play Mages, Warriors, Warlocks, and Rogues or Hunters, and each of them PvP - myself, I'm lenient to 'Mage types', but I have no problems playing a tank class and getting right in peoples faces to guard/protect/slaughter and have a blast doing so, and I'm not the only one and believe it or not, there are countless others who are no different.

And the quote 'Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.' actually comes from a piece of literature, more specifically a play by William Congreve called The Mourning Bride which is known world wide (and has been around since 1697), it was derived from the line "Heav'n has no rage like love hatred turn'd; Nor hell a fury, like a woman scorn'd." Just a little fact for everyone on the boards :mrgreen:

Edit: And the female population on the Sims was 50% stated by G4... But that's just one game and on the flip side of that it means an equal amount of male players played it as well. So that proves what exactly? Because again, it's still just one game.

[Chielz0r]

hmm ok

haha, I admit I have played the Sims myself for a short while, though my activities were mostly things like creating an extremely retarded character and placing it in a house without doors with lots of wooden furnature and an oven, I think you can imagine what happened. ^^

[Sinfjotle]

Notice the word often. People who play The Sims often.

I'm not sure if there is even a way to keep track of that. >_>

[Caululithrax]

I doubt that Mystic is going to allow male only Blackguard, however I wouldn't be surprised if they did. In all actuality, I was thinking they should make all the tank classes for Destruction, genderless. Orcs are already, Chaos Chosen could of had so many mutations that there is no gender, and Blackguard is that to become more of a killing machine they needed to remove your gender. So everyone can come up with their female names, and state that your character was female (vise versa for males). It would give the Destruction a more alien feel, instead of the normal (Guy & Girl) you get the abnormal (Guy, Girl, & Genderless).

[Dracallo]

Male female... does it really matter???

Under all that fricken armor, covered head to toe, it wont.

I doubt they will make different armor for the men and women. It doesnt look like they did for the KOBS.

So for you who are crying about not having a female tank, even if they do have a female black guard, by the mid to upper levels you wont be able to tell anyway. They will probably look just like the male Black Guard.

Male only, female only, whatever.

... I think I just killed the arguement.

[Sinfjotle]

Voice, etc.

And armor will look different, otherwise there would be no reason to say that redesigning marauder/choosen would've been to hard.

[Feigro]

Will there be female Black Guards?

"I honestly don't know. There's never been a female version in the Games Workshop Lore, but theres never been anything saying there couldn't be, so there is some ambiguity as the choices, as far as the Black Guard, there may be a choice, I honestly don't know what that is."

Recent interview (http://only-war.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17838) from E for All. Answer is paraphrased, video footage should come about eventually.

[Zunjin]

Male female... does it really matter???

Under all that fricken armor, covered head to toe, it wont.

I doubt they will make different armor for the men and women. It doesnt look like they did for the KOBS.

So for you who are crying about not having a female tank, even if they do have a female black guard, by the mid to upper levels you wont be able to tell anyway. They will probably look just like the male Black Guard.

Male only, female only, whatever.

... I think I just killed the arguement.

Great, then both male and females will be able to be black guards as it wont matter :)

[dutch_gamer]

Will there be female Black Guards?

"I honestly don't know. There's never been a female version in the Games Workshop Lore, but theres never been anything saying there couldn't be, so there is some ambiguity as the choices, as far as the Black Guard, there may be a choice, I honestly don't know what that is."

This information came from E for all, but from an, at least to me, unknown Mythic employee. If I read it right, it came from Spyke Alexander.

The response does make me worry somewhat, because I do hope there will be a female Black Guard. It simply would be a big mistake to have no female tanks on Destruction. I can still see Mythic having male only, even with the Chosen they did so, when there actually are female Chosen in the lore. I am not against restrictions, but I am against restricting an entire archetype in one faction. I just fear it could lead to a huge imbalance, when they made such a good decision at first by having humans and elves on both sides. Mythic can easily undo that one good decision by restricting Black Guards as well.

I do think that people also restrict themselves by not playing a different gender then themselves, but people have every right to do so. I don't mind playing a different gender myself. so I hope that Mythic will make the right decision. They can always restrict the Black Guard, unless they allow the Chosen to be female. At least one of the tanks should have both genders, it is only fair. They do bend lore on the Order side, by including both genders, even when the class/race doesn't truly warrant it. But in am not in favor of excluding options from Order because of all this. Fixing what is broken is always better than breaking something else.

Edit: took too long to post this, Feigro beat me to it.

[Dracallo]

It simply would be a big mistake to have no female tanks on Destruction.

I disagree....but here ya go everyone watch this!

http://files.filefront.com/eforallinterview+wswmv/;8864184;/fileinfo.html

It sounds like they might be debating with the chosen....

That would be better. Then keep the BG male only as the lore states...

Again... this is too much of a debate.

[Selendor]

I disagree....but here ya go everyone watch this!

http://files.filefront.com/eforallinterview+wswmv/;8864184;/fileinfo.html

It sounds like they might be debating with the chosen....

That would be better. Then keep the BG male only as the lore states...

Again... this is too much of a debate.

It doesn't say that they're debating anything. If anything, all it says is that they may not have decided for the Black Guard yet. Chosen is still male only.

[Dracallo]

It doesn't say that they're debating anything. If anything, all it says is that they may not have decided for the Black Guard yet. Chosen is still male only.

They said the Chosen and marauder were under scruntiny and its under debate. Watch it again.

[Yavvy]

They said the Chosen and marauder were under scruntiny and its under debate. Watch it again.To me it sounded like he said that the Chosen could have ended up female, with there being no lore against it, but no models or pics of it. The Black Guards are in the same situation as the Chosen were, and so might end up male-only as well.

I REALLY hope that doesn't happen, tho :(

[Dyst]

Male female... does it really matter???

Under all that fricken armor, covered head to toe, it wont.

I doubt they will make different armor for the men and women. It doesnt look like they did for the KOBS.

So for you who are crying about not having a female tank, even if they do have a female black guard, by the mid to upper levels you wont be able to tell anyway. They will probably look just like the male Black Guard.

Male only, female only, whatever.

... I think I just killed the arguement.

Hehe, agreed. Except for some different shapes here and there, it really shouldn't be much difference...

I guess people like to "theorize" though. :)

[Dracallo]

To me it sounded like he said that the Chosen could have ended up female, with there being no lore against it, but no models or pics of it. The Black Guards are in the same situation as the Chosen were, and so might end up male-only as well.

I REALLY hope that doesn't happen, tho :(

Bulky armor and a full face helm... If it is a dual gender class by level 30 you probably wont be able to tell.

[Sinfjotle]

Voice, etc.

And armor will look different, otherwise there would be no reason to say that redesigning marauder/choosen would've been to hard.

If you repeat yourself, I suppose I should repeat myself.

[Yavvy]

Bulky armor and a full face helm... If it is a dual gender class by level 30 you probably wont be able to tell.Then lets make them all women, eh, since you can't tell any difference?

Sinfjotle said it.

[Dracallo]

goes agaisnt the lore. Honestly I cant play a woman char so I would just go to another class.

[Jinsei]

Then lets make them all women, eh, since you can't tell any difference?

Sinfjotle said it.
Another slave escaped! I thought we got these outbreaks under control! Damnit...Someone go get it back to work smithing our halberds.

But no. Against the lore and what not.

[Fusko]

To be honest, my egocentrism won't allow me to care that much, but if Blackguards were forced to be female, I'd be pretty mad. So I think it would be lame of mythic for ALL(I know the orc HAS to be 'male') Destruction tanks to be male. Because in the case of the Blackguards, I don't think people would care THAT much for them to be male and female.

[Sinfjotle]

goes agaisnt the lore. Honestly I cant play a woman char so I would just go to another class.


ITQ: One mention in an obscure novel is lore.

[Yavvy]

Another slave escaped! I thought we got these outbreaks under control! Damnit...Someone go get it back to work smithing our halberds.

But no. Against the lore and what not.Slave? I'm an Ironbreaker, and a woman Dwarf as well, so they're already breaking the lore. Female Black Guards is less of a break than female Dwarfs.

[Dracallo]

so they're already breaking the lore. Female Black Guards is less of a break than female Dwarfs.

Yet one they shouldnt break

[Kaid]

Yet one they shouldnt break
We are pretty much past the point of no return as far as the lore goes. Its been broken. It will be broken again.

[Vikingkingq]

Once again, can anyone point to official GW lore that doesn't come from a novel that states that the Black Guard are male-only? Because it seems as if this discussion is taking the position that all-male Black Guard is supported by Lore without any proof of such.

[Chielz0r]

In think it was only ever mentioned once in a very very old version of warhammer RP.

[Kaid]

Once again, can anyone point to official GW lore that doesn't come from a novel that states that the Black Guard are male-only? Because it seems as if this discussion is taking the position that all-male Black Guard is supported by Lore without any proof of such.
It says that the first born son's are taken. However, if this stays true, lore will be broken. Yet people won't care because it doesn't effect the way they want the DE race to be.

[Jinsei]

Once again, can anyone point to official GW lore that doesn't come from a novel that states that the Black Guard are male-only? Because it seems as if this discussion is taking the position that all-male Black Guard is supported by Lore without any proof of such.
http://www.criticalhit.co.uk/content/view/86/49/1/6/ is where the "Black Guard is Male-only" arguement came from. Mythic seems to agree with the lore somewhat as an interview from E for All over at http://only-war.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17838 had this to say regarding the issue...

Will there be female Black Guards?
"I honestly don't know. There's never been a female version in the Games Workshop Lore, but theres never been anything saying there couldn't be, so there is some ambiguity as the choices, as far as the Black Guard, there may be a choice, I honestly don't know what that is."

So it could swing either way.

[Xaren]

Im for as much gender restriction possible on destruction side, so more people play Order :).

[Fusko]

http://www.criticalhit.co.uk/content/view/86/49/1/6/ is where the "Black Guard is Male-only" arguement came from. Mythic seems to agree with the lore somewhat as an interview from E for All over at http://only-war.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17838 had this to say regarding the issue...

So it could swing either way.

It says "This web site is completely unofficial and in no way endorsed by Games Workshop Limited" on the main page of that site, so I dunno.

[WarMachine]

http://www.criticalhit.co.uk/content/view/86/49/1/6/ is where the "Black Guard is Male-only" arguement came from. Mythic seems to agree with the lore somewhat as an interview from E for All over at http://only-war.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17838 had this to say regarding the issue...

So it could swing either way.
So the whole debate came from a site that one the home page it dlatenly written:

This web site is completely unofficial and in no way endorsed by Games Workshop Limited.

Um.. if thats it besides a novel, then it shouldn't be gender restricted anyway.

And for anyone that didn't catch it again, in WAR lore they are increasing the size of the blackgaurd for the invasion, so even if they took all the noble born first sons, where do you think the rest will come from? I see no reson why they wouldn't take females of able capibilities.

[Selendor]

And for anyone that didn't catch it again, in WAR lore they are increasing the size of the blackgaurd for the invasion

They never said this.

[Vikingkingq]

So just to sum up, the only place where it says anything is not a GW site, but a fan-site.
I would say then that this discussion would have to move forward on the assumption that the Lore does not in fact say anything one way or another about gender restrictions for Black Guard.

[WarMachine]

They never said this.
Its the way Paul made it sound in the podcast, unless he was meaning the blackgaurd unit was made just before they decided to invade.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

goes agaisnt the lore. Honestly I cant play a woman char so I would just go to another class.
Umm...Wait, weren't you the one who said Black Guards should be able to use Scythes?:rolleyes:

Aaahh.
So Black guards using Scythes isn't against the lore because you like it, but Female Black Guards is against the lore

(which is bollocks, you can't trust a fansite in matters like this)

[Selendor]

Its the way Paul made it sound in the podcast, unless he was meaning the blackgaurd unit was made just before they decided to invade.

P.S. Greenskins aren't actually soccer fans.

[Relentless]

P.S. Greenskins aren't actually soccer fans.

You mean a person may use a figure of speech and not intend for it be to taken literally?!?! Next thing you'll be telling me they vary in how seriously they intend to be taken!

[Xurré]

P.S. Greenskins aren't actually soccer fans.
I beg to differ (http://psilete.free.fr/xmedia/divers/bb/equipes.jpg). :p


- Xurré

[Kharlene]

Even that linked site doesn't actually say that BGs are 100% male-only...

All the noble martial traditions are upheld by the Black Guard and almost all can trace their routes back to the courts of ancient Nagarythe. It is typical for only the elder sons of the Black Guard, or the sons of very noble families, to be accepted into the order, as they believe that 'pure Khainite blood' runs in the veins of these Dark Elves and only such Druchii can be accepted by Khaine (the order is very much dedicated to the reverence of the War God). When a son is accepted into the Black Guard it is traditional that all of his siblings are sacrificed to Khaine in the initiation.

It merely says it is 'typical' not absolute, for elder sons or sons in general... but then again it is really just somewhat open to interpretation to how you wish to view it, the next lines where it talks about sons being accepted, but that still can easily be manipulated or even dismissed when stepping outside of what is 'typical'... Again, it just boils down to how the reader wishes to view it. Thus "lore" can easily be bent, and this is coming from someone who is a complete layman about WH "lore" in general.

[Speedy]

Im for as much gender restriction possible on destruction side, so more people play Order :).

More targets? :p

Honestly, I don't really see the big deal about these 'gender-restriction' classes. If you want to play the class, play the class. Especially if you are fully armored like the Black Guard, I don't really think if you have boobs or not would really matter. Unless you are going to do them nude dances they do in WoW.:rolleyes:

BTW, I am pro-female Blackguard =D

[Estebar]

BTW, I am pro-female Blackguard =D So am I. A female Black Guard would look amazing.

They don't have to bulk up like the Chosen, and there's no official lore saying they can't be female.

A female version of this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/Berzerkir/BlackGuard.jpg) with a breastplate and a big ponytail of long black hair would be great.

[Dracallo]

I will be highly annoyed if BG is open gender but I will get over it.

[Annysia]

I sure hope they aren't male only. This is the one true class I hope to play when it comes out. Mind you, I'm only going to play it if you're able to make females as well.

[Sorceress]

There really should be female Blackguard especially if it's the only playable Dark Elf melee class, the lore argument against it is made of straw and the military structure makes extensive use of female soldiers.

For personal reasons (i.e. my annoyance of fantasy female fighters in chainmail bikinis) I'd like the option to play a Dark Elf woman who actually wears armour.

[Navras]

http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/behindTheScenes/vidPhoneDiaries/windowopen/november_2007_n00dl3/view24_2007_november.html

It isn't really clear but I think these are female BG concepts.

[Zunjin]

http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/behindTheScenes/vidPhoneDiaries/windowopen/november_2007_n00dl3/view24_2007_november.html

It isn't really clear but I think these are female BG concepts.

I coudlnt see the sketches clearly but the coloured concept ones are witch elves atleast.

[Grimald]

I don't like the idea of female Black Guards, it just doesnt feel right, to me its like having male witch elves. I always pictured black guard as stern faced male warriors barring the way, not females dressed in heavy armour wielding a halberd.

[Ganymed]

it would have been announced already.

/sigh
Can we just lock these threads? It always ends up in the same stupid debate.

maybe they just want to avoid utterly stupid and not needed discussions about why there arent any female black guards, like it happened for chosen?

[Ganymed]

http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/behindTheScenes/vidPhoneDiaries/windowopen/november_2007_n00dl3/view24_2007_november.html

It isn't really clear but I think these are female BG concepts.

that are witch elfs.

[Kellaris]

http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/behindTheScenes/vidPhoneDiaries/windowopen/november_2007_n00dl3/view24_2007_november.html

It isn't really clear but I think these are female BG concepts.

Their dress do not look like heavy armour.
I looks more like sorceresses. Too much clothes for WE.

[Xurré]

Their dress do not look like heavy armour.
I looks more like sorceresses. Too much clothes for WE.
Agreed.


- Xurré

[Nerak]

If Black Guard's are male-only it makes sense, but it would be a bit retarded to really limit it now that there are male sorc's, in my opinion.

[Speedy]

that are witch elfs.

What you talking about? They look like sorceresses!