An Ironbreaker and <insert class here> meet... (no this isn't a start of a joke)

[Arijharn]

in the world. It's just them and there is no one else around and the encounter is merely by chance.

Assuming the area is flagged for RvR, who will win? Since there is no one else around, how can the Ironbreaker 'build up grudge' to aid his effectiveness? If this is the case, does this mean that the Ironbreaker has an inherent disadvantage in such a situation?

What are your thoughts? (providing of course... this topic doesn't die out with no replies heh)

[U4godlike]

he has abilitys that build grudge as well hes does also get it from when allys take damage but he has abilitys that build grudge

[Guivert]

Just to put that last bit somewhat more coherently: Ironbreakers do have other ways of getting grudge than just having allies take damage. There are grudge building abilities (morale abilities, I believe, and a couple normal attacks), and he also builds grudge from getting hit himself, and a smidge, I believe, when he does damage to others.

When I played an IB at Games Day, I was building up enough grudge for a couple moves that required X amount of grudge to even be useable, and I was only teamed with one other player at the time, so grudge comes pretty freely. I know he wasn't getting hit that whole time.

I'd say we wouldn't have anything to worry about solo, because we're tough as nails ... I'm sure we could get magic'ed to death from afar, but what kind of dwarf would let that happen? Really?

[Arijharn]

I'd say we wouldn't have anything to worry about solo, because we're tough as nails ... I'm sure we could get magic'ed to death from afar, but what kind of dwarf would let that happen? Really?

An unlucky dwarf? ^_^

[Biocide]

I would imagine it wouldn't be all that different. Game mechanics considered, grudge builds up the ability to do increased damage and special moves. Let's say it's a Choppa (because I remember their mechanic, any class will do). Said Choppa will begin hitting the Ironbreaker and building up frenzy, but from what we've seen in videos, it'll be 20-30% of their max frenzy. That's not enough to unleash anything that's too spectacular, and I bet that the ironbreaker can reach that amount of grudge without allies. It's not like they'll build up to 100% and instantly unleash an attack that drops the ironbreaker from 75% to 0, there's not enough time for that.

All in all, I find this whole ironbreaker at a disadvantage because they rely on allies thing a moot point. EVERY class in WAR will rely on their allies, since there's nobody that plays a class that can do it all by themselves and do it well. WAR is also all about massive pvp, will most likely be balanced as such, and 1v1 combat will in more than one case be sacrificed to add more group viability. Personally, I would be very interested in knowing which class that'll be, but I doubt it's going to be the Ironbreakers. Mythic's a smart bunch, they will think about the grudge thing, then go to extra lengths to prevent it from gimping the Ironbreaker in solo play.

[Grimfell Gromgear]

If anyone plans on wandering around alone in RVR areas please let me know where you'll be so my group can beat the tar out of you for some quick VP.

In other words, I really don't care how classes match up outside of groups.

[Guivert]

Grim makes a good point. What has ruined PvP in most MMOs is the mindset of "My character vs yours" when most MMOs are not designed to have balanced 1v1 fights. All the bickering about it usually just speeds up the nerf wagon, and the game suffers for it.

PvP, and especially RvR, is all about group battles. That's how it's meant to be played. I'm glad Mythic was reluctant to add dueling for this reason, and kinda sad that they gave in and included it. A 'Challenge' system in RvR could be cool, but unless they do something neat like that, I'll never bother with it.

I know I'm kind of ranting, and the OP wasn't bringing up an invalid point. I don't know how many times I'd be running solo in DaoC trying to catch up to my group after getting separated and such; there are valid reasons that one on one will occur, but I hope it's not a deciding factor for balance decisions ever.

[Arijharn]

Grim makes a good point. What has ruined PvP in most MMOs is the mindset of "My character vs yours" when most MMOs are not designed to have balanced 1v1 fights. All the bickering about it usually just speeds up the nerf wagon, and the game suffers for it.

PvP, and especially RvR, is all about group battles. That's how it's meant to be played. I'm glad Mythic was reluctant to add dueling for this reason, and kinda sad that they gave in and included it. A 'Challenge' system in RvR could be cool, but unless they do something neat like that, I'll never bother with it.

I know I'm kind of ranting, and the OP wasn't bringing up an invalid point. I don't know how many times I'd be running solo in DaoC trying to catch up to my group after getting separated and such; there are valid reasons that one on one will occur, but I hope it's not a deciding factor for balance decisions ever.

I'm not really sure if I totally disagree with you here. However, some games (okay, WoW) was touted as being balanced for group pvp but more often than not most pvp at the time that was encountered was solo and in the world (i.e., before battlegrounds). It was then that the community was rather outraged (and for good reason imo) at the difference in power levels.

Arguing for balance found only in groups is perhaps a noble cause, but I doubt anyone would really want to essentially 'just loose' with seemingly little effort on the part of the opposing player if they are the so called better match, which is what 'balanced for groups' really means.

[Grindal]

Ok guys, I don't know if any of you played WoW, but I'm kind of comparing IB grudge to a warriors rage in warcraft, is this a good comparison??

[Grimald]

Grudge is rage but better, you gain more grudge from your friends getting hit, this is the main thing that rage doesnt do which is why you can ignore warriors in bgs and they barely build enough rage to tickle you let alone kill you. Ironbreakers on the other hand get very angry when you ignore them and begin to smack you up. If you don't attack them early they will be hurting you but if you attack them early it means the rest of the group can heal him or attack you openly so its very tactical and grudge means that you can be a viable pvp tank probably the best pvp tank in the game. You can kite Black Guard, if you own chosen or KotBS their friends get debuffs to morale. Black Orcs are annoying on one to one basis but other than that they don't pose a considerable threat since their damage is very consistant through out and only builds once they lock someone down and begin pounding on them. Sword Masters haven't really been talked about yet but i can't seem them being effected by their friends getting hit either so i would say they are much like black guard in that manner.

All in all grudge will make the ironbreaker the power house of the order group rvr

[Thaxon]

I understand what you're getting at OP, but I really don't think it's going to be a 1v1 game.

I certainly hope it isn't. That kind of mindset led to a bunch of unwritten rules that ruined the community to a large extent in DAOC. If you're an enemy out solo, and my fg finds you, you're ganked, deal with it.

People that want solo, go play some Xbox live Halo 3 when it comes out or something.

[Dagoth]

I don´t agree with those saying that we should forgive about 1v1 balance.
Sure, the focus is group combat and it should be balanced around that, but don´t let it end like WoW´s 1v1 extreme unfairness.

To the OP, I would say that the IB is at a slight disadvantage, but only because tanks are designed to shine against multiple enemies not just one. Then again, it shouldn´t be anything big that a skilled IB can´t overcome.

[Dalwin]

Even though you get some grudge when you yourself are hit and have some abilities that directly build grudge, I do think that ironbreakers will be at a slight disadvantage in many 1 on 1 encounters. It is the nature of the class.

Fortunately it is not a 1 vs 1 game.

[sithborn]

Fortunately it is not a 1 vs 1 game.

ahh but what about solo pve


also to all those who say they don't care bout 1v1 seeing as its group dynamics that they will play consider this...you will at some point be in a 1v1 battle and if your an IB wouldn't you like know if you can hold your own alone or if your doomed to fail everytime.

[pooter26]

Even though you get some grudge when you yourself are hit and have some abilities that directly build grudge, I do think that ironbreakers will be at a slight disadvantage in many 1 on 1 encounters. It is the nature of the class.

Fortunately it is not a 1 vs 1 game.

Don't look at it as a slight disadvantage in 1v1. Look at it as a significant advantage in group pvp...

Im sure they are going to hold their own in 1v1 for the sole fact that they get grudge for everything. Personally, I think all the moves that require grudge won't require alot and will be plenty effective in 1v1. All the big group moves that are not that needed 1v1 (aoe) should require more grudge, makes sense right?

[Anders8989]

makes loads of sense. the simple damage grudge attacks cost less, the big group hitters and pvp moves cost more.

[Baradun]

Grudge is rage but better, you gain more grudge from your friends getting hit, this is the main thing that rage doesnt do which is why you can ignore warriors in bgs and they barely build enough rage to tickle you let alone kill you. Ironbreakers on the other hand get very angry when you ignore them and begin to smack you up. If you don't attack them early they will be hurting you but if you attack them early it means the rest of the group can heal him or attack you openly so its very tactical and grudge means that you can be a viable pvp tank probably the best pvp tank in the game.

I'm kinda curious, say your in an rvr raid, your last ally in your particular group just got beaten to a pulp but you still have plenty of allies arround, though not in your group do you still gain grudge from them being hit?

I allways found it frustrating in Pvp when you wanted to heal a group mate but they where off doing their own thing, I'm suspecting the same will apply to the ironbreaker. You'll have Plenty of group mates just there off doing their own thing to so they cant make use of the ironbreakers taunt debuffs on their allys attackers, and subsequent bonus grudge from being attacked near a grouped Ironbreaker.

(Partialy why I'm *Leaning* towards hammerer)

[pooter26]

makes loads of sense. the simple damage grudge attacks cost less, the big group hitters and pvp moves cost more.
Yep, it would be pointless for Mythic to give us massive AoE attacks and buffs that require lower grudge not really needed in 1v1, and useful 1v1 moves that require alot of grudge that will most likely be obtained in larger groups where the AoE is needed. Trust me Mythic knows what they are doing, ironbreakers are going to pwn 1v1! From what i have seen of their moves, they have some very nice 1v1 abilities.

I love how ironbreakers have 1v1 style moves, similarto the Black Orc, but actualyl have a worthwhile and cool mechanic like grudge that makes them great in every aspect of the game. I mentioned in another post: Ironbreakers will have moderate single target damage with a potential high single target damage in larger groups with the potential of some AoE, Moderate- High defenses. Mind you this is all tank relatvie so "High" dps is comparing it to other tanks. <.>