Should WEs get Agile Escape?

[mongoose]

Now this is NOT a thread about how cheezy this maneuver is (already got one of those going in the game design section ;)) but more about how appropriate it is for a Witch Elf to have.

Now from what I know about the Witch Elf they are all about death and destruction, killing and hurting, with little regard for their own lives.

excerpt from the Witch Elf description:

Before battle, the Brides of Khaine drink blood laced with drugs which fills them with bloodlust and rage. Then they throw themselves at the enemy, showing them the foolishness of opposing the Druchii.


Witch Elves are affected by the rules for frenzy:

Certain warriors can work themselves into a fighting frenzy, a whirlwind of destruction in which all concern for personal safety is ignored in favour of mindless violence.


So Im not seeing how or even why a Witch Elf would even conceive of a maneuver like agile escape because "escape" really isnt part of their vocabulary (unless to indicate that someone ELSE is fleeing and they must be hunted down immediately! :twisted:)

I would rather they remove this ability and give the WE instead some sort of hindering ability like a leg clip (slowing movement temporarily) or a rake across the eyes (causing a sec or two of blindness). These maneuvers could be used by the WE to retreat (uncharacteristic though it may be :rolleyes:) but could also be used offensively. Whereas the agile escape is for one thing and one thing only.....running away, which I just dont see WE doing in battle.

[Perp]

Yes. It's a cool ability and people are already crying about it. Makes me LMAO!

[Aeonus]

I think so! I think that despite being battle frenzied witch elves are at their hearts, dark elves and I would be SORELY surprised to see a dark elf who would not back away from a fight they cannot win.

[flestiraef]

Three words.

Balance

[Xurré]

Witch Elves are affected by the rules for frenzy:

Certain warriors can work themselves into a fighting frenzy, a whirlwind of destruction in which all concern for personal safety is ignored in favour of mindless violence.
A little later on in the rules for frenzy it states the following:

Frenzied troops that are defeated in close combat, as determined by the combat results, immediately lose their Frenzy (this happens before taking their Break test). Their exuberant, crazed frenzy has been thoroughly beaten out of them and they continue to fight as ordinary warriors for the remainder of the battle.

As such, if a frenzied unit is losing then they lose frenzy and, thus, the normal psychology rules apply to them again and they can run away. As such I can see Witch Elves retreating from battle when they're getting low on health (i.e. they're losing). I can also see that the Agile Escape move is only available if their amount if frenzy points is suitably low.

That said I do think it's a bit uncharacteristic for Witches to run away. Though it makes sense that even for them, with their bloodlust, they'd put self-preservation above anything else in the end, it's not something that I'd expect them to employ frequently.

All in all I'm not sure yet how I feel about it. It does look like a useful ability and it reminds me somewhat of my CoH Scrapper where I tended to be a whirlwind of claws jumping in and out of combat in lightning strikes (a style which would suit Witch Elves quite well), but it seems to be more a way to get out of combat altogether, which doesn't quite fit for me.

I'd imagine I'd stand there and continue to hit until someone goes down. Maybe.


- Xurré

[Morag]

The problem is people are comparing apples to oranges here. You know at the beginning of some movies where they say "this movie is loosely based on real life events"? Well, that's kind of like what a mmo of this type is like. For the sake of game play and balance certain things get changed during the translation from a turn based army vs. army TT game to a single character mmo.

excerpt from the Witch Elf description:

Before battle, the Brides of Khaine drink blood laced with drugs which fills them with bloodlust and rage. Then they throw themselves at the enemy, showing them the foolishness of opposing the Druchii.


Witch Elves are affected by the rules for frenzy:

Certain warriors can work themselves into a fighting frenzy, a whirlwind of destruction in which all concern for personal safety is ignored in favour of mindless violence.You can't force a player to behave the way Witch Elves do in the TT game. There are going to be players who are cowardly and run the moment they think they are going to lose. If the developers designed one of their classes with the intention of it charging in to combat and staying in combat regardless of the outcome not many would want to play that class. The trick is to design the classes to remain as true to the concept from the TT game as possible while still providing the basic abilities suited to the archetype. In this case a highly mobile class that can duck in and out of combat.

I would rather they remove this ability and give the WE instead some sort of hindering ability like a leg clip (slowing movement temporarily) or a rake across the eyes (causing a sec or two of blindness). These maneuvers could be used by the WE to retreat (uncharacteristic though it may be :rolleyes:) but could also be used offensively. Whereas the agile escape is for one thing and one thing only.....running away, which I just dont see WE doing in battle.

Chances are Witch Elves already have these abilities, or similar. Also, for all we know the Witch Elf could use Agile Escape offensively. What's to stop the Witch Elf from turning around and catapulting herself into the enemy casters? It all boils down to how they design the mechanics. Anyways, you may not be able to accept Witch Elves running away in TT but I can guarantee you will see it in WAR.

I'd imagine I'd stand there and continue to hit until someone goes down. Maybe.

I know you are a rp'er so we already have differing playstyles. Personally, I don't care what class I play or the lore behind it, I try to play smart and I try to play to win. If that means running away to deny someone a kill you can bet I'll do it. I'll use all the abilities of my class as best I can in order to win, cause that's what I like the most about pvp games, beating the other person or team.

[mongoose]

A little later on in the rules for frenzy it states the following:

Frenzied troops that are defeated in close combat, as determined by the combat results, immediately lose their Frenzy (this happens before taking their Break test). Their exuberant, crazed frenzy has been thoroughly beaten out of them and they continue to fight as ordinary warriors for the remainder of the battle.

As such, if a frenzied unit is losing then they lose frenzy and, thus, the normal psychology rules apply to them again and they can run away. As such I can see Witch Elves retreating from battle when they're getting low on health (i.e. they're losing). I can also see that the Agile Escape move is only available if their amount if frenzy points is suitably low.


A small counterpoint.

It actually states defeated, not just losing. This admittedly is built around an entire group of WEs and if they start to see their sisters dropping like flies then that might trigger the remaining WEs to retreat. This however demonstrates the willingness of the WE to fight to the death (since a fair number have to die to cause the route) This is all about the individual though and they shouldnt feel the need to escape just because they (the individual) are losing a fight.

[VeriusCarth]

A little later on in the rules for frenzy it states the following:

Frenzied troops that are defeated in close combat, as determined by the combat results, immediately lose their Frenzy (this happens before taking their Break test). Their exuberant, crazed frenzy has been thoroughly beaten out of them and they continue to fight as ordinary warriors for the remainder of the battle.

As such, if a frenzied unit is losing then they lose frenzy and, thus, the normal psychology rules apply to them again and they can run away. As such I can see Witch Elves retreating from battle when they're getting low on health (i.e. they're losing). I can also see that the Agile Escape move is only available if their amount if frenzy points is suitably low.

Make it cost all their remaining frenzy points? *Shrug* It's an idea. Certainly doesn't exactly coincide with what you said there, but... still.

[Xiara]

I think the WE's would be extremely weak in combat if they didn't have the escape ability. They will most likely have low armor and hitpoints, so escape keeps them somewhat "balanced" (even though i personally despise class balancing for the sake of balancing only). No one in MMO's likes to rack up debt or lose exp, and if a WE is going toe to toe with a Blazing Sun Knight they will most likely lose...so escape helps in the fact that they can jump out of battle and regroup if need be.

I'm very interested to see if a "Charge" ability is added for WE's that allows for them to charge at an enemy extremely fast and get a 1 up on them. WE's would be ridiculously brutal in pvp if they can escape/regroup/charge back in for an attack from a different direction.

Escape will already "confuse" many players in pvp with all the other allies and enemies around during battle. Witch Elf will be able to leap back into a crowd out of view of their enemy, get their heal, and charge back in.

[mongoose]

I think the WE's would be extremely weak in combat if they didn't have the escape ability. They will most likely have low armor and hitpoints, so escape keeps them somewhat "balanced" (even though i personally despise class balancing for the sake of balancing only). No one in MMO's likes to rack up debt or lose exp, and if a WE is going toe to toe with a Blazing Sun Knight they will most likely lose...so escape helps in the fact that they can jump out of battle and regroup if need be.


Why not a leg clip or a blind maneuver instead? (as I mentioned previously :rolleyes:)

If the WE performs a leg clip it could cause the opponent to be hindered and unable to give chase should the WE decide to disengage.

Or a rake to the eyes, causing blindness for say 2-3 secs (basically a short stun) and allow the WE to leave should she choose to do so.

Both of these ideas allow the WE to 'escape' just as easily as a jump back but with the added benefit of also having offensive uses as well.....something much more in tune with the overall design of the class.imho.

[Morag]

Why not a leg clip or a blind maneuver instead? (as I mentioned previously :rolleyes:)

If the WE performs a leg clip it could cause the opponent to be hindered and unable to give chase should the WE decide to disengage.

Or a rake to the eyes, causing blindness for say 2-3 secs (basically a short stun) and allow the WE to leave should she choose to do so.

Both of these ideas allow the WE to 'escape' just as easily as a jump back but with the added benefit of also having offensive uses as well.....something much more in tune with the overall design of the class.imho.

Because every class has anti cc abilities. Because while a stun or snare would work against one person it's not as effective when two or more people are attacking the Witch Elf. Because a stun takes control away from someone while a jump doesn't. Because the Witch Elf likely has a couple snare abilities and maybe a few stuns or knock downs anyways.

[flestiraef]

WE Charge ability.

See enemy 50 yards ahead.

Turn around.

Use the jumpback ability.

Chargeeeeeeeeeeeeee backwardssssssssssss!

[Thoden Firehammer]

On a lore standpoint i'd say no ....

However on a game mechanic stand point and IF they give WE's light armor, than I think it's needed.

Oh and you all realize that the WE only flys back 20ft. and it wouldn't be that hard to catch up.

[WarMachine]

Why not a leg clip or a blind maneuver instead? (as I mentioned previously :rolleyes:)

If the WE performs a leg clip it could cause the opponent to be hindered and unable to give chase should the WE decide to disengage.

Or a rake to the eyes, causing blindness for say 2-3 secs (basically a short stun) and allow the WE to leave should she choose to do so.

Both of these ideas allow the WE to 'escape' just as easily as a jump back but with the added benefit of also having offensive uses as well.....something much more in tune with the overall design of the class.imho.
Well, the leg clip makes it a cowardly attack, as it would be used for purposes besides escape. The Kight is giving chase to the healer, so the WE leg clips them to alow the healer to escape. In lore, the WE wouldn't care if the healer got killed. Now with agile escape, it only has an effect on the WE. This would incompass her self preservation, or lauring the unssuspected oppnent in to a possible ambush. Lure some one defending to give chase, to lower the amount of defenders. I mean, most would give chase thinking they almost have her.

In sort, the Agile Escape only effects the WE, whereas, a leg clip would affect any enimy the WE can run next to. Besides, other class have simular abilities to leg clip, yet the WE has a very different ability than the rest.

[Black Razor]

I don't think of it so much as running away as a feint style attack, and in that light it fits the light fighter style of combat Witch Elves embody. I agree it does slightly conflict with the frenzy aspect of witches, and maybe it should be adapted in some way like what VeriusCarth suggested or simply make it unusable when Witch Elves are frenzied .. but its really not something worth making as big a stink over as alot of people are .. its not a drastic effect thats going to win or lose fights I don't think, and I don't believe its a blatant lore breaking addition to there abilities.

[Onos]

Lore wise - maybe not.

Gameplay wise - yes. A class that is supposed to be very squishy (most likely the least amount of armor of any melee), needs a way to survive. Tbh I would love if the animation was changed such that she actually kicks the person she is fighting in the chest and jumps back (although that would require this to be usable only in combat, and might look to much matrix like)

[Wulfhelm der Rote]

I think it should be exchanged for some kind of "leap ability". Aim at target player and literally jump on him. Like similar abilities in other games ( f.e. warrior charge=wow; barbarian leap skills= d2) it could also be used to escape and would be much more fitting.
Actually the first things that came to my mind thinking about witch elf class skills(before the announcement) were war leaps/cries and drugs.

[edit] I now even remember an artwork out of the 6. edition rulebook showing a bunch of empire soldiers trying to fight off some witch elves/cold one knights. There was a witch elf with raised daggers jumping right into the face of one soldier. I'd be glad if anyone could post it because I kind of liked it and cannot find it anywhere on the internet. :(

[shotgunbadger]

People who think "Blood Lust"="Stupid" are...well stupid.


Witch Elves love blood, but are smart enough to know "Hey, if this armored man pounds me into a red smear...I can't collect more blood for the cauldron!" and make a small retreat to catch her breath, not enough to look like a coward but just enough to keep out of reach for a moment.

[Gemini]

People who think "Blood Lust"="Stupid" are...well stupid.


Witch Elves love blood, but are smart enough to know "Hey, if this armored man pounds me into a red smear...I can't collect more blood for the cauldron!" and make a small retreat to catch her breath, not enough to look like a coward but just enough to keep out of reach for a moment.

There is a huge diffrence between bloodlust and frenzy. Witch Elves on the TT get frenzied and lose all reguard for thir safety, they just want to kill kill kill.

That being said, they can also lose frenzy, and, sadly, some sacrifices have to be made to make everything fit the MMO. I see nothing wrong them getting this attack, espically if it's a low life only thing.

[Aeldor]

I reckon you have to bear in mind that as a player character you are not really the rank and file witch elves seen in tt. At the point you get this ability it may be that you are slightly more world smart, slightly more combat savvy. This being so you will use your frenzies, and not have it use you.

It could be the sort of thing that seperates a heroine, such as the player, from an ordinary trooper; The ability to disengage from combat and re-engage when the setting suits you better.

[Pangscar]

On a lore standpoint i'd say no ....

However on a game mechanic stand point and IF they give WE's light armor, than I think it's needed.

Oh and you all realize that the WE only flys back 20ft. and it wouldn't be that hard to catch up.

exactly, I see this ability only useful vs other melee fighters. A ranged class will thank you for jumping away so he can shot you better lol.

[Rerisen]

Giving Witch Elves a combat escape makes about as much sense as giving a Khorne Warrior a combat escape, both pretty much have the same mindset.

It's a compromise being made in the name of having different class identities, balance, whatever excuse you want to use. That doesn't mean the game might not end up better for having made that choice, but there is no reason to fool ourselves trying to pretend it fits with lore or their personality.

I think it should be exchanged for some kind of "leap ability". Aim at target player and literally jump on him.

Yep. Ironically it would fit more with their persona for them to leap *into* battle than out of battle (like the Frenzy auto charge rule).

[Jest]

Yes. It's a cool ability and people are already crying about it. Makes me LMAO!

I guess some people are forgetting that every race has a ranged DPS career. I highly doubt a Witch Elf will be able to use Agile Escape as a "Oh " button and immediately save themselves from a bad situation. Soon as they go flying off, I know every Bright Wizard, Engineer, and [insert HE ranged DPS here] will be targetting them. If they aren't, they aren't fulfilling their role in RvR. Remember, WAR is an RvR game. You won't be finding yourself 1v1'ing the majority of the time, in fact- it will probably be a rare sight. People will be fighting in groups, and using teamwork to win.

I hate to say it but I think the majority of the people against Agile Escape are still thinking about WoW's "Vanish" skill that Rogues got. Agile Escape won't be anything like that. Folks need to have some faith in the Dev team.

We don't even know the specifics yet. What if Witch Elves are extremely vulnerable? If they get 3 Ironbreakers on them, what are they supposed to do? /sit and take the death? Agile Escape may be nothing more than something to give Witch Elves a chance at staying alive for long RvR battles.

And BTW, I am for Agile Escape.. long as it is balanced appropriately as a safety "mechanism" for WEs and doesn't become a "Get out of Trouble Free Card"

[Grimfell Gromgear]

Doesn' matter to me much, if the squishy pointy eared cowards want to flitter and dance away from real combat, just more proof a'there weakness.

Seriously though, I can honestly say it doesn't matter much to me. I don't see what the point is on speculating whether an ability in a game you've never played before is going to be balanced. I can see speculating on whether it will be cool or not but that's about it.

And as far as coolness goes it gets a 'meh' from me. Not particularly impressive, but not bland either.

[Axxar]

Maybe the Frenzy mechanic works both ways. Usually you need your secondary bar, such as Waaagh to be high to use certain abilities. Perhaps with Frenzy, as it rises not only do more powerful offensive abilities become available, but defensive abilities become inaccessible until you get rid of your Frenzy. Basically while frenzied, your character is more concerned with her bloodlust than her own welfare.

[Rerisen]

Doesn' matter to me much, if the squishy pointy eared cowards want to flitter and dance away from real combat, just more proof a'there weakness.

And as far as coolness goes it gets a 'meh' from me. Not particularly impressive, but not bland either.

^^
Just mad because when Dwarfs try to jump forward or back they land in the exact same spot they started! :lol:

[Gemini]

Maybe the Frenzy mechanic works both ways. Usually you need your secondary bar, such as Waaagh to be high to use certain abilities. Perhaps with Frenzy, as it rises not only do more powerful offensive abilities become available, but defensive abilities become inaccessible until you get rid of your Frenzy. Basically while frenzied, your character is more concerned with her bloodlust than her own welfare.


That sounds like a very cool mechanic, and defiantly seperate from the other classes' mechanics.

[Jest]

Maybe the Frenzy mechanic works both ways. Usually you need your secondary bar, such as Waaagh to be high to use certain abilities. Perhaps with Frenzy, as it rises not only do more powerful offensive abilities become available, but defensive abilities become inaccessible until you get rid of your Frenzy. Basically while frenzied, your character is more concerned with her bloodlust than her own welfare.

It would be awesome if this is how the WEs worked. Would totally justify Agile Escape.
I hope they do it this way.

[Selandri]

Apologies for the slow response.

Lore-wise, it seems a bit off. That said these are not direct transits from tabletop to MMO. They've all had tweaks and yada yada yada done to them, so lore-wise isn't really a valid objection.

Game-wise, watching the video ( So freakin hot. ) I don't see it being that huge a deal. They're opportunists. They run in, slice and stab, take someone out then get out of there. If they get stuck, they die. Dying with no chance does not equal fun. It doesn't seem to give them much of a headstart, I'm sure each class will have anti-fleeing tactics that will still be in effect, so just chase.

It's not Desperate Flight or Cloak of Shadows ( Both of which powers in their respective games I'd say are horrendously overpowered in certain situations ), it's a get out of the mix trick, not a get out of battle, can't be touched. I could gank her ( Though I'll be the one playing her come release! ;) )

[Morag]

These are from a very recent interview (http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/11414) with GW's Jon Gillard.

This has been the overriding idea for us the whole way through where we [Games Workshop] say, ‘Use the background, use the world, use the lore, but make a good MMOG.’

“We don’t want our developers tied to the tabletop game,” Jon continued. “The tabletop game is only one realization of a real universe. In the same way any of the novels that we do (or comics, cards, etc.) all have this overall theme of warfare, because we built our game to be a tabletop war experience, but we don’t feel like they should be slavish to certain things.”

...some of the classes in Warhammer Online are straight from the tabletop game. The High and Dark Elves are examples of this, but even in that vein the guys at EA Mythic still have to make those classes fit into their game from an MMOG standpoint.”

With that much necessary finagling of the character types and how they’ve interpreted that from the table top game, it’d make you wonder how well the Games Workshop guys have accepted this “retro-fitted” version of their original game. “We love the guys and gals at EA Mythic. We knew those guys even before we made the deal to make Warhammer Online,” Jon said. “We have a lot of faith in their ability. I don’t think they’ve done anything that’s upset us to this point.

I wish the mods could just sticky that interview and lock threads like this whenever they pop up.

[Thrakkesh]

With only the barest hint of skills listed as far as the Witch Elf (which ironically a few people are flogging them over) we really have no idea as to the context of the agile escape. One might very well consider that she might have attacks that just as easily bring her into combat as well as out.

Think about the uses--you go after a caster, tank comes up to make your life miserable--Leap! suddenly you're 30 yards away. Dash! maybe an aggressive form o fa agile leap or a skill even vaguely similar to the Hammerer's charge ability makes you rush into a different direction, forcing the defense to shift over to a completely new target.

Running away quickly might 'not feel Witch Elf" but bouncing around the battlefield like some crazed bloodthirsty Squig with poisoned and weapons and a bad attitude might.

[Axxar]

Not to mention the ability may not exist at all at release.

[Brass Soul]

I can use Agile Escape to rush Mages.

Find tank, rush tank, kite so that your back is to the Mage, Agile Escape!

Fear the gymnastic psychopaths! They don't run in straight lines you know! :D

Not to mention what a surprise that could be to both the Mage and the Tank, haha.

Suprise!

[Jest]

These are from a very recent interview (http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/11414) with GW's Jon Gillard.
I wish the mods could just sticky that interview and lock threads like this whenever they pop up.

No reason to lock threads that are opening discussion on why certain careers are getting certain abilities and if they should get them. Even if GW openly acknowledges that they support the decisions or explains that some "finagling" must be done to transform the TT qualities to the MMORPG medium. As the WAR community, we should be discussing such things. If we just sit here and nod and smile, we wouldn't really be doing our part as a community.

[Rerisen]

No reason to lock threads that are opening discussion on why certain careers are getting certain abilities and if they should get them. Even if GW openly acknowledges that they support the decisions or explains that some "finagling" must be done to transform the TT qualities to the MMORPG medium. As the WAR community, we should be discussing such things. If we just sit here and nod and smile, we wouldn't really be doing our part as a community.

Indeed. Attempts to end the discussion with what amounts to, "GW said so, so it must be good!" miss the point entirely of the thread. Nobody stated that the thread was about whether Agile Escape was approved or not, certainly not the OP. Obviously it was or it would not be in the game. But this is about people's opinion on whether that was a good decision.

Any fantasy world must logically follow from the laws of its own creators to be taken seriously. Consistency and integrity are perhaps even more important in fantasy settings. For the very reason that you ask your readers/customers to suspend disbelief about things like Dragons and Magic you better make darn sure the established rules that allowed those things to exist in your world are respected. For instance, if for 25 years of your world's history you say Dwarfs are under 6 feet tall, then suddenly in your mmo Dwarfs can choose to be 7 feet tall, you have suddenly just made your own established lore a big joke, and then very quickly people learn nothing can be trusted about your fictional universe because anything can be changed at a blink without regard to rhyme or reason. That type of dishonesty creates no reason for people to invest or trust in your setting because it does not make any kind of rational sense.

On a much lesser more micro level, that is what this thread is about. If it makes sense judging by everything known and written about Witch Elves in decades worth of Warhammer history and lore, that they would have an ability that lets them cowardly escape from battle whenever they feel like it. I think there is more evidence against it than for it.

More than likely such an ability was approved not because it made a lot of sense with the lore but because the class needed to fit a different sort of gameplay style that was lacking on the Destruction side. Let's just be honest and realize that some changes, sacrifices, and compromises are made for no other reason than that people expect certain types of variety in a mmo of this type and making sure you have that variety is going to sell more games. Some round pegs may need to be shoved into square holes in the process. That does not mean people have to like it.

[Fusko]

I'd rather play a great game with decent lore, than a decent game with great lore.

[Rerisen]

I'd rather play a great game with decent lore, than a decent game with great lore.

I agree with that. There is only so much story depth you can really build in to a mmo anyway. The mechanics just don't support a linear, single-hero type storyline rich with lore, like you might find in a single player game.

My problem is not with concessions made for the sake of trying to make the game better (though people will differ on which changes actually accomplish that), so much with hypocrisy of people arguing the reasoning for those changes, and always after the fact.

[Xurré]

I'd rather play a great game with decent lore, than a decent game with great lore.
I'd rather play a great game with great lore. I'm not sure why we should settle for anything less.


- Xurré

[WarMachine]

I'd rather play a great game with great lore. I'm not sure why we should settle for anything less.


- Xurré
Yea, I agree with her......

[Morag]

No reason to lock threads that are opening discussion on why certain careers are getting certain abilities and if they should get them. Even if GW openly acknowledges that they support the decisions or explains that some "finagling" must be done to transform the TT qualities to the MMORPG medium. As the WAR community, we should be discussing such things. If we just sit here and nod and smile, we wouldn't really be doing our part as a community.

I fully support having open discussion about the different aspects of the game. My problem is with people who proclaim the TT rules as gospel and don't have any idea that a mmo version of Warhammer isn't going to be a carbon copy. Some people just aren't able to comprehend that in order to make a mmo version of a game like Warhammer that things are going to change and evolve in order for this to be a success. They take one ability out of the four of five known abilities and go "omg, Witch Elves with an escape ability??? That's not like Witch Elves from TT at all!", all the while not realizing that agile escape is one ability out of dozens that Witch Elves will end up with in order to fulfill their role and archetype.

Because of that I feel that discussion on the matter is useless for the most part. All that should need to be done is to point them to that article so they can educate themselves on the differences between a turn based table top game where one person controls an army and a mmog where one person controls one character.

Indeed. Attempts to end the discussion with what amounts to, "GW said so, so it must be good!" miss the point entirely of the thread. Nobody stated that the thread was about whether Agile Escape was approved or not, certainly not the OP. Obviously it was or it would not be in the game. But this is about people's opinion on whether that was a good decision.

At no point did I ever say "GW said so, so it must be good!". I am pointing out that WAR is not going to be an exact replica of the TT game and people should just start learning to accept it.

Any fantasy world must logically follow from the laws of its own creators to be taken seriously. Consistency and integrity are perhaps even more important in fantasy settings. For the very reason that you ask your readers/customers to suspend disbelief about things like Dragons and Magic you better make darn sure the established rules that allowed those things to exist in your world are respected. For instance, if for 25 years of your world's history you say Dwarfs are under 6 feet tall, then suddenly in your mmo Dwarfs can choose to be 7 feet tall, you have suddenly just made your own established lore a big joke, and then very quickly people learn nothing can be trusted about your fictional universe because anything can be changed at a blink without regard to rhyme or reason. That type of dishonesty creates no reason for people to invest or trust in your setting because it does not make any kind of rational sense.

Oh please, there is a big difference between your example and what we are actually talking about. Tell me how Mythic is breaking the lore by giving Witch Elves an ability to jump out of combat.

On a much lesser more micro level, that is what this thread is about. If it makes sense judging by everything known and written about Witch Elves in decades worth of Warhammer history and lore, that they would have an ability that lets them cowardly escape from battle whenever they feel like it. I think there is more evidence against it than for it.

The funny thing is if they called the ability "Agile Leap" instead of "Agile Escape" no one would have said anything. Anyways, for the rest of that paragraph I'll just refer you to my list of quotes from GW (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?p=457310#post457310) on the previous page.

More than likely such an ability was approved not because it made a lot of sense with the lore but because the class needed to fit a different sort of gameplay style that was lacking on the Destruction side. Let's just be honest and realize that some changes, sacrifices, and compromises are made for no other reason than that people expect certain types of variety in a mmo of this type and making sure you have that variety is going to sell more games. Some round pegs may need to be shoved into square holes in the process. That does not mean people have to like it.

I pretty much agree with that. If people go into this game expecting it to be 100% true to their interpretation of TT they will most likely be disappointed. I, personally, see no reason why Witch Elves shouldn't have some form of escape ability. If you read some of Xurré's older posts when she was arguing in favor of Witch Elves you can see that they aren't mindless killing machines with no sense of self preservation or combat awareness. In fact, if that were the case then I would assume Dwarves would have got Slayers after all.

[Fr0]

Agreed, it should be more like a berzerking ability though. Fleeing is not something WE commonly do. Given their delicate nature (in terms of playstyle) I feel that it will be quite nice to leap away, bandage w/e come back for the kill when the time is right.

[Rerisen]

At no point did I ever say "GW said so, so it must be good!". I am pointing out that WAR is not going to be an exact replica of the TT game and people should just start learning to accept it.



Well, I didn't qoute you specifically because I wasn't sure if that was what you were trying to say. But it does seem to be a popular argument around here that people trot out, pretty much that whatever decision Mythic makes is going to be a good one just because it got approved.

The interview you linked can really be used as ammunition for any side of the argument someone is on. To me reading that just confirmed that GW is giving Mythic a very long leash and allowing them to change things pretty much as needed, barring severe breaches.

So once we establish that changes are going to be made not based 100% on being handcuffed by lore, then you can really get into the meat of a discussion about whether a change is good or liked by the community or not. Because many are changes that are not required for the game to make sense. That's why I think if people try to say any given decision should not be questioned because by its very nature of being approved, it becomes official Warhammer lore, that does a disservice to the community.

It's not like in this case someone is arguing against established convention like that Dwarfs shouldn't like to grow their beards out or something! :)

[Rerisen]

Agreed, it should be more like a berzerking ability though. Fleeing is not something WE commonly do. Given their delicate nature (in terms of playstyle) I feel that it will be quite nice to leap away, bandage w/e come back for the kill when the time is right.

It will definitely be a useful advantage. Just think that Chaos Magus's are going to be riding on a darn flying disc(!) that used to be considered a flyer in the TT and could move 3x as far as foot units in a turn, it seems kind of backward that a melee class that loves nothing else than throwing itself into battle is the one that is given the combat escape, while someone on a flying disc known for its fast movement is stuck moving at the speed of people on foot. Those type of things make you go hmmm. And no, I don't say that because it says Magus under my name, I just thought of it reading Fr0's post. :)

[Thoden Firehammer]

I'd rather play a great game with decent lore, than a decent game with great lore.


What you forget is that without the lore there wouldn't be the great game.

[Tae]

It actually states defeated, not just losing. This admittedly is built around an entire group of WEs and if they start to see their sisters dropping like flies then that might trigger the remaining WEs to retreat.

Actually none of them have to die.

'Defeated' is when you lose combat, and you lose (or win) combat based on combat resolution - which is calculated based on numerous factors, only one of which is kills/deaths.

It's entirely possibly for a unit of 10 Witch Elves to lose to a unit of 40 Goblins without even having one of them fall. I know, as I've done it in the reverse with Dark Elf Spearmen (love those rank bounses !) vs a unit of Bretonnian Cavalry. Didn't kill a single one (bloody 2+ armour and 6+ ward saves), but rank and banners saw them off.

[Thrakkesh]

It's entirely possibly for a unit of 10 Witch Elves to lose to a unit of 40 Goblins without even having one of them fall. I know, as I've done it in the reverse with Dark Elf Spearmen (love those rank bounses !) vs a unit of Bretonnian Cavalry. Didn't kill a single one (bloody 2+ armour and 6+ ward saves), but rank and banners saw them off.

Failed animosity check - move towards the stupid slaves whether I wanted it or not That's nothing. I had a full unit of Boar Boyz with a Black Orc Lord get chased off by Skaven Slaves. (no Rank bonus, 2 wounds dealt by my--yeah... two, vs a single wound, 3 ranks, outnumbering, standard..)

Truly one of the darkest times in my life.

[Tae]

Failed animosity check - move towards the stupid slaves whether I wanted it or not That's nothing. I had a full unit of Boar Boyz with a Black Orc Lord get chased off by Skaven Slaves. (no Rank bonus, 2 wounds dealt by my--yeah... two, vs a single wound, 3 ranks, outnumbering, standard..)

Truly one of the darkest times in my life.

It works the other way too.

Last thursday I had a unit of 20 my (DE) Spearmen facing a unit of like 10 Bretonnian Knights, tanked up to the nuts, plus their (Battle) Standard.

First two rounds I lost virtually my front rank both rounds. Next round I killed one Knight and won the combat by one, they ran off ... not very far. I ran further.

[Rauros]

Agreed, it should be more like a berzerking ability though. Fleeing is not something WE commonly do. Given their delicate nature (in terms of playstyle) I feel that it will be quite nice to leap away, bandage w/e come back for the kill when the time is right.

That's how I feel. You can't spill blood for Khaine when you're dead, so why not leap out of combat for a moment when you're being overwhelmed and wait for a better opportunity to slash some .

Witch Elves obviously don't wear a lot of armor, so they'll probably end up being fairly squishy compared to other melee dps classes. Makes perfect sense to me that Mythic would give them an out like agile escape to make up for their lack of armor.

[Kharlene]

What you forget is that without the lore there wouldn't be the great game.

I disagree with that, maybe from an RPers standpoint that makes sense, but you can only add so much content so much refined detail in every aspect of the storyline before it becomes redundant. Bear in mind, not everyone playing this game is really going to care too much about the lore, it may appeal to them but very few are going to go into depth with it, they are merely going to want to play a great game, i.e. have a good game mechanic. Ideally, everyone would like to play a "great game with great lore", but to me that's expecting a bit much, I expect developers to be able to do what they can with what is available to them, and not fret over every little detail that may be left out or set aside. I'd much rather focus on the major issues of gameplay, because that is what the majority focus on the most and that is what makes or breaks a game the most.

[Bluucandi]

Considering the use of Agile Escape, the only uncharacteristicthing my WE would do is to keep running ... away from battle like a frightened little girl. No, lorewise, she'd leap back few paces away from the action, sparing enough time to imbibe a potion, and she'd leap right back into the frey.

[Skurk]

Considering the use of Agile Escape, the only uncharacteristicthing my WE would do is to keep running ... away from battle like a frightened little girl. No, lorewise, she'd leap back few paces away from the action, sparing enough time to imbibe a potion, and she'd leap right back into the frey.

Thats not going to be the case with everyone. If the person playing the WE jumps into a battle, and then realizes that alot of melee dps heading their way. I'm sure the reaction will be something like

O FUX AGIL ESKAP

Then turn tail and patter away. I can see Agile Escape being of good strategic use. Maybe fighting a tank or melee dps, and seeing yourself possibly losing. Jump away, take the few seconds to drink a potion, slap on some poisons, and any self buffs, and jump back into battle.

BUT, your enemy can do the same thing. If they can. I can imagine some people saying to themselves "Hmm, there's a Swordmaster right there, but he looks a little tough, let me go over there and slap him up a little bit. If I can't beat him, at least I can agil ezkap and run away" Which can be frustrating to the swordmaster.

Still, a mamby pamby prissy backflip doesn't mean anything to a ranged dps. I doubt the whole Agile Escape concept is going to be an EZ mode button since this is an RvR game anyway.

[Bluucandi]

Thats not going to be the case with everyone. If the person playing the WE jumps into a battle, and then realizes that alot of melee dps heading their way. I'm sure the reaction will be something like

O FUX AGIL ESKAP

Then turn tail and patter away. I can see Agile Escape being of good strategic use. Maybe fighting a tank or melee dps, and seeing yourself possibly losing. Jump away, take the few seconds to drink a potion, slap on some poisons, and any self buffs, and jump back into battle.


You misunderstand me, Agile Escape to me is a "stragic use" as well. I said it would be UNcharacteristic of her to keep running once she's employed the ability.

Yes, I realise that this is no sure fire way of avoiding heavy damage from ranged fighter.

[mongoose]

Well Im glad to se my little thread has survived :D

Personally I have no problems with this maneuver from an MMO perspective. Its cool, has style, and is a great strategic move that fits into the game.

The problem I have however is how badly it clashes with the Witch Elf lore. Now Im all for bending lore where necessary but to me this concept was a poor execution on Mythics part to come up with a solution. I would REALLY prefer them sitting down and figuring out a way to do something similar to this ability (ie. a way to disengage from a fight) WITHOUT snapping the lore into tiny pieces....

<after 3 mins of serious brainstorming>

Class Dev 1: .....hey I know.....give them this cool leap out of combat ability!

Class Dev2: That DOES sound cool and does what we want it to do. Lets go with that.

Lead Dev: Sure that sounds ok, lets move on. :p

(wheres the part where they check the lore books and realize that while frenzied they dont care about their lives, its all about killing!!!!??? :confused:)

Maybe the Frenzy mechanic works both ways. Usually you need your secondary bar, such as Waaagh to be high to use certain abilities. Perhaps with Frenzy, as it rises not only do more powerful offensive abilities become available, but defensive abilities become inaccessible until you get rid of your Frenzy. Basically while frenzied, your character is more concerned with her bloodlust than her own welfare.

Well I honestly dont know how an Orc of all people managed to come up with the best idea but............he did!

This would be an acceptable compromise to me. Since the thing getting in the way of this maneuver lorewise IS frenzy just dont allow agile escape to work if your frenzy reaches a certain point. Simple trade off. If you cant handle losing your agile escape then do NOT frenzy yourself ;)

[Skurk]

You misunderstand me, Agile Escape to me is a "stragic use" as well. I said it would be UNcharacteristic of her to keep running once she's employed the ability.

Yes, I realise that this is no sure fire way of avoiding heavy damage from ranged fighter.

Oh no, I didn't mean that as an attack against you. Actually, I thought your strategic scenario for using Agile Escape was a good one.

I meant to say that there are other people who'd view Agile Escape as an escape from combat entirely. Rather than using the gap to give themselves a quick buff or two, they'd turn tail and scamper away.

[Morag]

You misunderstand me, Agile Escape to me is a "stragic use" as well. I said it would be UNcharacteristic of her to keep running once she's employed the ability.

Regardless of how uncharacteristic it is the majority of players won't care. You're just kidding yourself if you think that Witch Elf players won't use it to turn tail and run if they don't think they will be able to win. I understand a lot of posters here are in to rp or whatever, but the reality is when the game goes live you're going to see a lot of cowardly Witch Elves.

[Bluucandi]

Oh no, I didn't mean that as an attack against you. Actually, I thought your strategic scenario for using Agile Escape was a good one.

I meant to say that there are other people who'd view Agile Escape as an escape from combat entirely. Rather than using the gap to give themselves a quick buff or two, they'd turn tail and scamper away.

Thank you Shurk. I was merely attempting (as Mongoose asked) to put Agile Escape in a lore based context. I will try my best to emulate that female berserker mentality - within reason of course. ;)

[Xurré]

This would be an acceptable compromise to me. Since the thing getting in the way of this maneuver lorewise IS frenzy just dont allow agile escape to work if your frenzy reaches a certain point. Simple trade off. If you cant handle losing your agile escape then do NOT frenzy yourself ;)
I agree with the suggestion made (and I think I've suggested it myself when it was first announced).

However, it's also a careful balancing act Mythic would have to play with it. It's all too easy to make it such that the ability would be unavailable to most players when playing normally. And considering that you'd need the ability in the middle of probably the most frenzied moments it would lead to a lot of moaning and complaining from players that the ability is useless and all that.

So at the very least there would need to be a quick way to spend your frenzy as well, making the ability available. Or better yet have the ability itself remove all frenzy so that players can't move in, build up frenzy (against a tank or whatever), jump out and use the frenzy to kill everyone else.

Another idea is that the more hurt you become the less high your maximum frenzy can be, so that the ability becomes automatically available when you're most hurt. Though this way whenever the ability becomes available you'd mostly want to automatically use it (since you'd be in a lot of trouble to begin with), which could be a good or a bad thing depending on how you want to design the game.

Either way, if you jump out of combat you should be completely clear-headed one way or the other.


- Xurré

[Fr0]

Witch Elves obviously don't wear a lot of armor, so they'll probably end up being fairly squishy compared to other melee dps classes. Makes perfect sense to me that Mythic would give them an out like agile escape to make up for their lack of armor.

/agree

They will make up for the bloodthirty mentality with abilities and mechanics. This is a save your move. She who lives to fight another day... isn't really a WE but will make the class more balanced and fun to play. It's gotta be hard to adhere to the lore, be fun and keep a balance. Kudos to the devs for doing it as much as they can, a knockback would be more suitable though imo. Those who will be playing the class will be playing a squishy class that seems to do craploads of damage in a hurry. A glass cannon so to speak. We need an out.

[Rerisen]

I think I would have just given them a brief stun (maybe 3 sec) or something that breaks if you hit the target again, if they really needed an escape tool.

All the comments about players will just run away when they get injured regardless of lore could pretty much apply to any class, but that doesn't mean every class is getting a combat escape. I mean people that are playing Chosen will surely run away at times, doesn't mean you have to make it easy for them.

[Morag]

I think I would have just given them a brief stun (maybe 3 sec) or something that breaks if you hit the target again, if they really needed an escape tool.

A brief stun only works on one target, what happens if the Witch Elf is getting assist trained by 3+ people? Also, Mythic has stated that they are trying to limit cc's, a stun would take control out of the players hands where Agile Escape won't. Thirdly, who is to say that WE's don't get a short stun too? They could just as easily have some stuns and Agile Escape.

All the comments about players will just run away when they get injured regardless of lore could pretty much apply to any class, but that doesn't mean every class is getting a combat escape. I mean people that are playing Chosen will surely run away at times, doesn't mean you have to make it easy for them.

What does this have to do with anything we're talking about? Chosen is a melee tank class, WE is a melee dps class; totally different classes, totally different archetypes.

[Rerisen]

What does this have to do with anything we're talking about? Chosen is a melee tank class, WE is a melee dps class; totally different classes, totally different archetypes.

It has to do with it, because that is one of the reasons people have listed in favor of Agile Escape. I.e. That even though the lore says they are frenzied fearless fighters, you can't force people to play like that and people will run away from combat regardless, therefore just because people will run away apparently it makes sense to give them a escape mechanism? I don't think so.

As for stuns, they will be in the game. Knockbacks will be in the game, maybe even knockdowns. The idea that the only option they had was 'Agile Escape' is just a cop out. People can choose to agree with it or not, but pretending it was the obvious and only ability to give them is pretty silly. If they wanted they could have simply upped their dodge and parry percentages, much like the swordmaster will defend just as well with a 2H as other tanks do with a shield.

That they are 'lightly armored' is another weak argument I have seen. This is a fantasy mmo, all kinds of logic fails to apply where it might seem to. Witch Hunters are not heavily armored either, they wear a trenchcoat and maybe leathers, gee how will they ever survive without leaping 30 yards out of combat? :rolleyes: Witch Elves didn't *need* it either and really it makes no sense to give it to them.

Like I said previously, I see decisions like making this ability as purely meta-game choices made by the devs because they feel they have to cater to certain target audiences (in the case the rogue/stealther/assassin) type crowd. Even though the Witch Elf doesn't really fit that archtype in Warhammer they will shove round pegs into square holes to appease that playstyle. Dark Elf Assassin probably would have worked far better for those type of folks, but since Mythic is against stealth and Witch Elves are so iconic they kind of got in the bind and decided to bend the class identity somewhat to fill both those needs.

Some people don't care about lore others do. I don't particularly mind if they bend lore in places where it is a vast improvement for the sake of the game or where it is really essential to make something work. In this case, I just don't think it was necessary.

[Gloovish]

WE Charge ability.

See enemy 50 yards ahead.

Turn around.

Use the jumpback ability.

Chargeeeeeeeeeeeeee backwardssssssssssss!

They charge with their butts into battle. I like it.

[Morag]

It has to do with it, because that is one of the reasons people have listed in favor of Agile Escape. I.e. That even though the lore says they are frenzied fearless fighters, you can't force people to play like that and people will run away from combat regardless, therefore just because people will run away apparently it makes sense to give them a escape mechanism? I don't think so.

The problem I have with your post is that you base your arguments on things being a direct translation from the TT game. What you fail to understand is that this is not the TT game, it's a mmo game. They have to have classes fill a certain role in the game and there needs to be allowances made so that one class isn't totally preferable over another. Say WE's have no way to reliably escape combat, but the other two melee dps classes for Destruction do. What happens then? A bunch of WE players whine and complain that Choppas and Marauders have a way to get out of combat and WE just get steamrolled.

As for stuns, they will be in the game. Knockbacks will be in the game, maybe even knockdowns. The idea that the only option they had was 'Agile Escape' is just a cop out. People can choose to agree with it or not, but pretending it was the obvious and only ability to give them is pretty silly. If they wanted they could have simply upped their dodge and parry percentages, much like the swordmaster will defend just as well with a 2H as other tanks do with a shield.

We don't even know more than five or six of the WE's abilities. It's foolish to say that because they have only revealed Agile Escape that it is the only option WE have to survive combat. For all we know they have several and Agile Escape is more of a last ditch ability to run for it. The funny thing is if they called it Agile Leap there wouldn't be a problem, but since "escape" is part of the ability name people get all up-in-arms about it.

That they are 'lightly armored' is another weak argument I have seen. This is a fantasy mmo, all kinds of logic fails to apply where it might seem to. Witch Hunters are not heavily armored either, they wear a trenchcoat and maybe leathers, gee how will they ever survive without leaping 30 yards out of combat? :rolleyes: Witch Elves didn't *need* it either and really it makes no sense to give it to them.

I'm going to laugh if Witch Hunters get an agile escape-esque ability. The truth is you don't know what kinds of things Witch Hunters can do because there is no info out on their abilities. Also, have you played WAR? Do you know for certain that WE don't need an ability to escape combat? Or is it just your opinion based on how you interpret the lore that they shouldn't have one?

Like I said previously, I see decisions like making this ability as purely meta-game choices made by the devs because they feel they have to cater to certain target audiences (in the case the rogue/stealther/assassin) type crowd. Even though the Witch Elf doesn't really fit that archtype in Warhammer they will shove round pegs into square holes to appease that playstyle. Dark Elf Assassin probably would have worked far better for those type of folks, but since Mythic is against stealth and Witch Elves are so iconic they kind of got in the bind and decided to bend the class identity somewhat to fill both those needs.

Well, that's just how it goes man. They have to make the class fit the archetype. They could have picked Corsairs or something else and avoided problems like this. They went with Witch Elves and now they have to fit them into their game. They are trying to make a fun and successful mmog and, like I said, certain allowances have to be made. I personally agree with you that WE are a bad choice for how they are making this game. However, the reality is they picked Witch Elves and they are going to give them things like Agile Escape. Maybe you could write a letter to Mark Jacobs expressing your unhappiness over the direction they went with Witch Elves and see if you can persuade him to make some changes.

Some people don't care about lore others do. I don't particularly mind if they bend lore in places where it is a vast improvement for the sake of the game or where it is really essential to make something work. In this case, I just don't think it was necessary.

I don't particularly care that Witch Elves get Agile Escape. So, what makes your opinion more valid than mine? Just because you have a problem with something doesn't mean that Mythic has made a bad decision. For all we know they had to give Witch Elves a way to get out of combat because it is essential to making the career work.

[Vikingkingq]

The idea that the only option they had was 'Agile Escape' is just a cop out. People can choose to agree with it or not, but pretending it was the obvious and only ability to give them is pretty silly. If they wanted they could have simply upped their dodge and parry percentages, much like the swordmaster will defend just as well with a 2H as other tanks do with a shield.

Agile Escape makes for a more dynamic solution than upping dodge and parry percentages, which add to an invisible statistic. It's the same reason why giving Hammerers knockbacks is better than giving them extra armor - it's more dynamic, and makes for a livelier battlefield.


That they are 'lightly armored' is another weak argument I have seen. This is a fantasy mmo, all kinds of logic fails to apply where it might seem to. Witch Hunters are not heavily armored either, they wear a trenchcoat and maybe leathers, gee how will they ever survive without leaping 30 yards out of combat? :rolleyes: Witch Elves didn't *need* it either and really it makes no sense to give it to them.

All melee dps careers will have similar systems to the Witch Elf to get out of combat when needed, just as they have abilities to quickly get into combat when needed; as we learned from the career video from Waagh, "Melee DPS guys that will have abilities that allow them to close that range fast."

In terms of gameplay mechanics, the Hammerer's knock-backs work exactly the same as the Witch Elf's Agile Escape - they put distance between the melee dps player and whoever is beating on them. The Hammerer knocks the target away, the Witch Elf knocks herself away.

Most likely the Witch Hunter and the HE/DE melee dps careers will have similar mechanisms to get in and out of combat when needed. It's part of the nature of the archetype- a melee dps career must have ways to get into and out of combat swiftly in order to use their positional attacks, close range vs. ranged careers, and get away from the tanks, otherwise it's too low on health/armor to be viable.


Like I said previously, I see decisions like making this ability as purely meta-game choices made by the devs because they feel they have to cater to certain target audiences (in the case the rogue/stealther/assassin) type crowd. Even though the Witch Elf doesn't really fit that archtype in Warhammer they will shove round pegs into square holes to appease that playstyle. Dark Elf Assassin probably would have worked far better for those type of folks, but since Mythic is against stealth and Witch Elves are so iconic they kind of got in the bind and decided to bend the class identity somewhat to fill both those needs.

Some people don't care about lore others do. I don't particularly mind if they bend lore in places where it is a vast improvement for the sake of the game or where it is really essential to make something work. In this case, I just don't think it was necessary.

I disagree. I think Agile Escape absolutely fits with the image of the Dark Elves that Mythic is trying to create - agile, Matrix-like, backstabbing, and treacherous. Simply put, the alternative to abilities like Agile Escape are not as good - you could give the Witch Elf more health/armor, which goes against the lore of the career and the mechanics of the Archetype, or you could boost passive dodge/parry rates, which is boring.

[Rerisen]

I disagree. I think Agile Escape absolutely fits with the image of the Dark Elves that Mythic is trying to create - agile, Matrix-like, backstabbing, and treacherous. Simply put, the alternative to abilities like Agile Escape are not as good - you could give the Witch Elf more health/armor, which goes against the lore of the career and the mechanics of the Archetype, or you could boost passive dodge/parry rates, which is boring.

Right, they fit with the Witch Elves 'Mythic' is trying to create not with the Witch Elves of 25 years of lore. Then again Mythic could make Witch Elves Tanks and that would fit with the Witch Elves they are making to. If it's true that every single melee DPS class gets a equally effective escape then maybe it doesn't look so bad, but so far I have not seen confirmation that that is the case. I don't call a short knockback equally as effective either, because it doesn't entirely clear you out of danger or other foes.

I'm sorry but I just don't buy people's rationalizations for this ability. I buy that you like it and think it's cool but I don't buy that it just makes all perfect sense. And here is the perfect example in these situations. If we consider a hypothetical where Mythic *did not* include Agile Escape, how many people would be screaming for them to get it? I would say not one. Not one person would be saying, how are Witch Elves ever going to survive without leaping 30 yards out of combat?

But if Witch Elves were made without Daggers or were made to be male as well as female, tons of people would have objected because those things are established ideas about Witch Elves, that they are female and use long daggers (or short swords). But not once before Witch Elves were released did I see anyone saying they should be getting some kind of leap out of combat. Now that they have, all of sudden it would be the end of the world if they didn't. So arguing there is no alternatives to Agile Escape sounds pretty hypocritical to me, and more like a defend Mythic at all costs attitude than a logical response.

[Morag]

Right, they fit with the Witch Elves 'Mythic' is trying to create not with the Witch Elves of 25 years of lore. Then again Mythic could make Witch Elves Tanks and that would fit with the Witch Elves they are making to. If it's true that every single melee DPS class gets a equally effective escape then maybe it doesn't look so bad, but so far I have not seen confirmation that that is the case. I don't call a short knockback equally as effective either, because it doesn't entirely clear you out of danger or other foes.

GW signs off on everything Mythic designs. They are making a mmog based off the TT game, they are not making a new TT game. You are so hung up on "lore" that you refuse to accept that this game is not going to be an exact copy of the TT version. Secondly, the game isn't even finished yet. We don't know what all the classes are going to end up with or what will be changed from now to release. Lastly, one ability should not be an ultimate guarantee of escape. All it does is buy you time to run away, get healed, or whatever.

I'm sorry but I just don't buy people's rationalizations for this ability. I buy that you like it and think it's cool but I don't buy that it just makes all perfect sense. And here is the perfect example in these situations. If we consider a hypothetical where Mythic *did not* include Agile Escape, how many people would be screaming for them to get it? I would say not one. Not one person would be saying, how are Witch Elves ever going to survive without leaping 30 yards out of combat?

It's obvious that you don't accept any sort of argument in favor of the ability. You have it set in your mind how you think it should be and I doubt any sort of argument or information is going to change your opinion. Personally, I don't care what WE have as long as they have something. I don't think anyone is sitting around thinking "gee, there is no other possible way to give Witch Elves an ability to escape combat other than Agile Escape". I think most rational people understand the need for an escape ability and aren't getting hung up on what they decide to name it.

But if Witch Elves were made without Daggers or were made to be male as well as female, tons of people would have objected because those things are established ideas about Witch Elves, that they are female and use long daggers (or short swords). But not once before Witch Elves were released did I see anyone saying they should be getting some kind of leap out of combat. Now that they have, all of sudden it would be the end of the world if they didn't. So arguing there is no alternatives to Agile Escape sounds pretty hypocritical to me, and more like a defend Mythic at all costs attitude than a logical response.

I think you are seriously reaching here. First of all, Witch Elves are female. If they aren't female then they aren't Witch Elves. That is a very established core rule regarding them. That also has nothing to do with what sorts of abilities they should have. I don't think that before KotBS info was released that anyone was saying they should have a system of aura buffs they could alternate between and stack.

I think most people expected Witch Elves to be doing a lot of damage, have some sort of potion they could drink and use poisoned weapons. I think they captured the core of Witch Elves, but guess what, they need a totally fleshed out class. If WE strictly followed the TT rules they would just go nuts and charge in to battle trying to gut people. Obviously, that doesn't work in a mmog where you control just one character.

I also don't think many people feel that Agile Escape is the end-all be-all of options for a combat escape ability. It is what they currently have though. They felt it fit the career and obviously so did GW. Like I said, if this one ability is such an issue for you then you ought to write a letter outlining your opinion and try to convince the developers that your way is the way it should be.

Anyways, before you accuse people of ignoring logic and defending their opinions at all costs you should take a look at your own posts. I think it could probably go both ways.

[Vikingkingq]

Right, they fit with the Witch Elves 'Mythic' is trying to create not with the Witch Elves of 25 years of lore. Then again Mythic could make Witch Elves Tanks and that would fit with the Witch Elves they are making to. If it's true that every single melee DPS class gets a equally effective escape then maybe it doesn't look so bad, but so far I have not seen confirmation that that is the case. I don't call a short knockback equally as effective either, because it doesn't entirely clear you out of danger or other foes.

The Hammerer has more than just a short knock-back (and ranges on Knockbacks are in the range of 45-55 feet). It also has Sundering Blow --> Croquet, Breakthrough -->Croquet, Impact Wave, Grugni's Hammerfall, and Untouchable. Note - most of these attacks are AOE, not single-target.

So yes, every Melee DPS has equally effective methods of escaping from combat. If they didn't, they'd have a lifespan in combat of the average fruit fly.


I'm sorry but I just don't buy people's rationalizations for this ability. I buy that you like it and think it's cool but I don't buy that it just makes all perfect sense. And here is the perfect example in these situations. If we consider a hypothetical where Mythic *did not* include Agile Escape, how many people would be screaming for them to get it? I would say not one. Not one person would be saying, how are Witch Elves ever going to survive without leaping 30 yards out of combat?

Oh, I think they'd be screaming that once the Witch Elf career went into RvR combat and started dropping like flies whenever they got into melee range. Same principle behind the Shaman's EEEK! - it's not in the lore, but the career just wouldn't be able to mix it up in RvR unless they had it.

[Rerisen]

GW signs off on everything Mythic designs. They are making a mmog based off the TT game, they are not making a new TT game. You are so hung up on "lore" that you refuse to accept that this game is not going to be an exact copy of the TT version.

I can say the same of you. You are so hung up on proving that lore means nothing, that you use, "This is not tabletop!" as a blanket defense against any sort of argument either in favor of lore, or flat out to defend any move Mythic makes as positive.

Once again I am not arguing that lore should never be broke, only that in this case, there was just no reason to go so far against it. I guess we have to agree to disagree. You say you dont' care if they got Agile Escape or something else as long as they got something. I agree they could have got something else, but which was more consistent with what a Wtich Elf has always been described as.


So yes, every Melee DPS has equally effective methods of escaping from combat. If they didn't, they'd have a lifespan in combat of the average fruit fly.


Your opinion. Which is based on what? A few short descriptions of one or two other abilities that no one really knows how they match up in reality in the game. Making blanket statements like every Melee DPS has 'equally effective' methods to escape is seriously premature. It would be like trying to proclaim in WoW beta, that all casters have equal methods of escape. When clearly that did not prove to be the case. Abilities that are vastly different in design pretty much always have distinct advantages and disadvantages. And often some straight out are better than others.


Oh, I think they'd be screaming that once the Witch Elf career went into RvR combat and started dropping like flies whenever they got into melee range. Same principle behind the Shaman's EEEK! - it's not in the lore, but the career just wouldn't be able to mix it up in RvR unless they had it.

Not if they simply thought of a different ability. Mmo's have gotten along making Melee DPS classes for a decade, dozens of games, without having them all have Agile Escape, so its pretty laughable to think WAR could not have survived without it.

I think people need to go back and watch the class presentations and understand what the Melee DPS archtype is. It is strong against casters and range, and it is weak against tanks. If Melee DPS is foolish enough to engage tanks 1v1 then they are probably going to die. And they should not get free outs against them. The idea that they would be 'dropping like flies' without this ability flies in the face of the reality of game dynamics. You keep painting them like they are Rogues. Who is going to be dropping them in melee? There are only two Melee types in the game, other Melee DPS (a fair fight) and Tanks, who they are supposed to be weak against! People must be buying into the Witch Elves = Rogues hook, line and sinker having this idea that they are somehow paper thin weak and squishy. They are not. They are front-line in your face combat troops, every bit as capable as something like Choppa's. They don't drop like flies because they use posioned blades and Frenzy to attack faster and more furiously than their opponents. Extra damage equals less need for heavy armor. Read the TT rules, read the lore, read novels. This is what informs our basis of what a Witch Elf is. And if you think none of those things have any value, then why even make a Warhammer game?

Mythic's primary attitude should be how can we accomplish something consistent with what is Warhammer. Only breaking that as a last resort. This was far from a last resort situation.

[Rerisen]

I feel like I am having the Male only Chosen discussion all over here. It's the same dynamic. People that could not care one way or another before it happened (just like nobody cared about Agile Escape), start defending it to the hilt 100% post fact, simply because it was Mythic's decision. Never mind that they could have made the opposite decision and not hurt the game in any way. Never mind that it was against lore, and worse, it was against what they had already done in regards to Female Dwarfs.

Virtually no one had a opinion either way before the information came out on Chosen, But then suddenly when Mythic makes Chosen as Male only, all the fanboys rush in to prop up to say how it all makes perfect sense.

It's the same thing here with Agile Escape. The devs make one throw away line at a convention that Witch Elves "are the class most like a Rogue we have" then people suddenly go to town defending how the ability supports that vision. Well duh, too bad Witch Elves never had to be "the class most like a Rogue" in the first place. Witch Elves have never been like Rogues (I.e. description as Warrior-Priestesses) and should not be getting Rogue abilities. That's pretty much the bottom line.

[Vikingkingq]

Your opinion. Which is based on what? A few short descriptions of one or two other abilities that no one really knows how they match up in reality in the game. Making blanket statements like every Melee DPS has 'equally effective' methods to escape is seriously premature. It would be like trying to proclaim in WoW beta, that all casters have equal methods of escape. When clearly that did not prove to be the case. Abilities that are vastly different in design pretty much always have distinct advantages and disadvantages. And often some straight out are better than others.

Like hell it's just my opinion. It's based on the six Hammerer abilities I listed, as well as the Choppa's abilities:
Stuntie Smash - knock-down
Crush Em - snare
Grapple - snare/root
Ead Butt - stun
Run Em Ovah - increases runspeed, separate from Sprint
Poke in Da Peepers - stun
No Stoppin Mo Choppin - removes snares

Again, it's all different ways of getting in range and staying there, or getting out.


Not if they simply thought of a different ability. Mmo's have gotten along making Melee DPS classes for a decade, dozens of games, without having them all have Agile Escape, so its pretty laughable to think WAR could not have survived without it.

There are six melee dps careers. You need to spread the same capability over all six, and you need to do it in a way that does not suck and does not repeat. Agile Escape is a good pick.


I think people need to go back and watch the class presentations and understand what the Melee DPS archtype is. It is strong against casters and range, and it is weak against tanks. If Melee DPS is foolish enough to engage tanks 1v1 then they are probably going to die. And they should not get free outs against them.

I have watched the presentation - that's how I know that all melee careers will have abilities to help them close range vs. ranged attacks, a point you seem to be ignoring. Moreover, it is very close-minded to assume that the choice is dying automatically vs. a free out. The trick is to give an edge to one side without making things a foregone conclusion - so, to use an example, the Witch Elf can hit Agile Escape, but if the Ironbreaker has got off Binding Grudge or Punishing Blow or Grip of Stone, they're going to be in trouble.


The idea that they would be 'dropping like flies' without this ability flies in the face of the reality of game dynamics. You keep painting them like they are Rogues. Who is going to be dropping them in melee? There are only two Melee types in the game, other Melee DPS (a fair fight) and Tanks, who they are supposed to be weak against! People must be buying into the Witch Elves = Rogues hook, line and sinker having this idea that they are somehow paper thin weak and squishy. They are not. They are front-line in your face combat troops, every bit as capable as something like Choppa's. They don't drop like flies because they use posioned blades and Frenzy to attack faster and more furiously than their opponents. Extra damage equals less need for heavy armor. Read the TT rules, read the lore, read novels. This is what informs our basis of what a Witch Elf is. And if you think none of those things have any value, then why even make a Warhammer game?

They would drop like flies because they have only moderate armor at best, because they have no way to heal themselves, and because they cannot DPS effectively against tanks who they are weak against. Melee DPS careers survive on the battlefield by closing range quickly to avoid being kited and by gaining range when needed to avoid being overtaken by tanks. Otherwise, a Melee DPS career would be completely helpless in the face of a tank line.

Finally, you're being really condescending when you suggest that I haven't seen the career video when I reference it as a source, and when you suggest that I'm stuck on WoW rogues when I use Hammerers and Choppas as references. Argue against me, not a strawman.

[Enkmar]

A reminder for everyone going crazy over WEs getting Agile Escape, you don't have to use the ability. If you want to be a frenzy suicidal warrior, charge right in.

Like it or not, mechanics are important for fun gameplay. A class that uses openers and has a rogue-like playstyle without stealth requires some escape tools.

[Rerisen]

Like hell it's just my opinion. It's based on the six Hammerer abilities I listed, as well as the Choppa's abilities:
Stuntie Smash - knock-down
Crush Em - snare
Grapple - snare/root
Ead Butt - stun
Run Em Ovah - increases runspeed, separate from Sprint
Poke in Da Peepers - stun
No Stoppin Mo Choppin - removes snares

Again, it's all different ways of getting in range and staying there, or getting out.

It's your opinion that they are all 'equal'. Unless you have played the game and every single class consider me not convinced. Half those abilities are to keep other players *in* range, so not comparable at all to what the thread is about. Trying to expand the issue into other ability types is just going to muddy and weaken the discussion.


There are six melee dps careers. You need to spread the same capability over all six, and you need to do it in a way that does not suck and does not repeat. Agile Escape is a good pick.

I think its a poor pick. Designed to suck in former WoW Rogue players and other similar arch-type players of that ilk who needed a home. Too bad the Witch Elf is the one that had to be hammered into that paradigm.


I have watched the presentation - that's how I know that all melee careers will have abilities to help them close range vs. ranged attacks, a point you seem to be ignoring.

The discussion is about Agile Escape. It has nothing to do with closing distance or attacking ranged players. It's a getaway maneuver. If they are using it to help reach range, it would have made far more sense to make them leap forward over their opponent, not 30 yards back behind their own safe lines.

They would drop like flies because they have only moderate armor at best, because they have no way to heal themselves, and because they cannot DPS effectively against tanks who they are weak against. Melee DPS careers survive on the battlefield by closing range quickly to avoid being kited and by gaining range when needed to avoid being overtaken by tanks. Otherwise, a Melee DPS career would be completely helpless in the face of a tank line.

And once again, could have been accomplished with a stun, crippling poison, dodges, all manner of other ways. An ability that basically amounts to a cowardly retreat is not in line with a Witch Elves persona. That is the question under discussion "Should WE's get Agile Escape." Not 'do they need a escape'. Maybe they do, be we are talking about the one they did get and whether it was a good choice. Heck, even a knockdown like others got would be more in line with a WE, because it would be a fitting offensive maneuver with the option of being used defensively. A leap out of combat is a purely defensive maneuver. Big difference. The OP figured this out in the very first post, mentioning several offensive maneuvers that could be used in the same way (eye rake, leg clip), but would be more in keeping with Witch Elf lore.

Finally, you're being really condescending when you suggest that I haven't seen the career video when I reference it as a source, and when you suggest that I'm stuck on WoW rogues when I use Hammerers and Choppas as references. Argue against me, not a strawman.

Well I found your attempt to play the Witch Elf up as very weak and squishy to be kind of bizarre. At Leipzig, Paul made the point several times to stress how fearsome and dangerous killers Witch Elves were. He mentioned how they are up front in the heart of battle, over and over, he didn't say anything about them being crushed in melee if they don't use their Agile Escape. I highly doubt anyone would play up Choppa's and Hammerers as weak and likely to squashed like a fruit fly, even though they are the exact same archtype as Witch Elves. The only reason people are thinking Witch Elves are weaker than those classes is because Mythic has played up the Rogue angle and it becomes a self-reinforcing point of contention.

Mythic makes the Rogue-Witch Elf link and then from that basis people argue they need all these escapes and tricks because otherwise they would get stomped. The link never needed to be made in the first place.

Let's say Mythic made Skaven and had a Skaven Assassin class on Destruction as melee DPS. In that case, I bet they would have taken a totally different track on the Witch Elf, playing up how powerful and dangerous she was, instead of playing her as a shifty, subtle, roguish character that has to fight (and run) underhanded because she is too weak to stand toe to toe. The idea that the type of Witch Elf and her abilities we got were someone a foregone conclusion is what I take issue with.

Anyway, were just going in circles at this point and I doubt anyone is going to change their mind. The fact that this thread even exists is evidence to the feeling by many that something doesn't fit right here.

[Lord Tareq]

If it was the black guard that got the agile escape ability, then yes, I would have an issue with that due to lore. A fully armoured stubborn bodyguard should not get an ability like that.
However I can not understand why people are so troublesome about a rogue-like character based on the dark elf witch elf getting a tactical ability that is essentially a big leap. There is nothing that forces you to flee when you use that ability, think outside the box.

If you are going to follow the lore and play frenzied, then either not use it, or use it to bring your opponent off-balance and rush back in. Especially in a skirmish with lots of people your opponent may switch targets since he thinks you retreat, thus buying yourself some nice extra seconds to deal damage before he understands you were not running.

The ability brings many tactical options to the witch elf which suit them just right; fighting a high elf swordmaster you suddenly notice an archmage behind you coming to his aid. In a wild frenzy you use agile escape to jump to him, intercepting him asap to continue your onslaught. Perfect imho.

What I'm trying to say, its an ability that suits an agile (not-impeded-by-armour) light elf perfectly. Sure it can be used by someone to escape any unfavourable encounter, but thats a personal choice a player makes.

If people still think it breaks the lore then consider this; should witch elves in WAR be forced to run at high speed to the closest enemy? everytime? even in pve? Cause thats what frenzy is all about in the warhammer lore, getting the grip on the first enemy in sight asap. Would that make a user friendly character to play?

Anyway, to prevent people whining and whining over nothing it should probably be savely renamed to "agile jump". Yup that would change alot:rolleyes:

[Rerisen]

If it was the black guard that got the agile escape ability, then yes, I would have an issue with that due to lore. A fully armoured stubborn bodyguard should not get an ability like that.
However I can not understand why people are so troublesome about a rogue-like character

Because Witch Elves have never been described as 'Rogue-like' anywhere before Warhammer Online. They were not even skirmishers in TT but fought in organized columns just like swordmasters, choppa's or any up front melee unit. They were more disciplined and more battle loving than most units and in most cases heavy armored units like pikemen or swordsman would be running (or escaping) out of combat before Witch Elves.

Lightly armored and high damage alone are pretty weak links to being rogue-like. In that case Witch Hunter's are Rogue-like, heck Bright Wizard's are Rogue-like! If anything the Witch Elf would be more closer to something like the WoW fury warrior, just with less armor. Their mindset is basically akin to that of a Frenzying Khorne Warrior, only they make up for their less armor with faster attacks and poison. Like a Khorne Warrior, they wouldn't run away. If they need a mechanic to get away (due to game dynamics), there is plenty of ways to make one that does not appear so blatantly cowardly and defensive. I don't think people are arguing so much with what the mechanic allows you to do, so much as how it is accomplished and the style of it.

[Morag]

I can say the same of you. You are so hung up on proving that lore means nothing, that you use, "This is not tabletop!" as a blanket defense against any sort of argument either in favor of lore, or flat out to defend any move Mythic makes as positive.

Once again I am not arguing that lore should never be broke, only that in this case, there was just no reason to go so far against it. I guess we have to agree to disagree. You say you dont' care if they got Agile Escape or something else as long as they got something. I agree they could have got something else, but which was more consistent with what a Wtich Elf has always been described as.

I don't believe at any point have I ever said that I thought lore means nothing. I think, for the most part, lore is rather important. It's what creates a great environment for this game to take place in. What we are arguing about is essentially an inconsequential point - one ability out of dozens and dozens of abilities of one of the careers, which may or may not change at any given moment.

It's not like they said "in our game Witch Elves can be male". All they did was give the melee dps career for Dark Elves an ability to escape combat, like all the other melee dps careers are going to have. Does it fit Witch Elves? That depends on your opinion. Is it something worth crying that they broke "lore" over? I don't think so, it's very minor. That's where we disagree. I backed up my position and tried to explain to you that not everything is going to be the same as it is in TT. This is one of those things.

I am curious though, If you were going to design some combat escapes for Witch Elves what would you give them?

[Vikingkingq]

It's your opinion that they are all 'equal'. Unless you have played the game and every single class consider me not convinced. Half those abilities are to keep other players *in* range, so not comparable at all to what the thread is about. Trying to expand the issue into other ability types is just going to muddy and weaken the discussion.

It's my opinion that they have the same function - manipulating range so that the melee dps career can "hit and run" and stay alive. So yes, they are comparable when viewed as part of a total package of abilities. Is it beyond the realm of possibility that Witch Elves won't get a charge-like ability to go along with Agile Escape?


The discussion is about Agile Escape. It has nothing to do with closing distance or attacking ranged players. It's a getaway maneuver. If they are using it to help reach range, it would have made far more sense to make them leap forward over their opponent, not 30 yards back behind their own safe lines.

It has everything to do with manipulating distance. A melee DPS career need to get to the ranged players AND get away from the tanks. Having Agile Escape in makes it more likely that the Witch Elf will also have some sort of leap-attack charge manuever to complement the other part of the Melee DPS' range abilities. Moreover, a really skilled Witch Elf player could use this one ability to do both, by positioning themselves to jump away from tanks and into retreating ranged dps careers.


And once again, could have been accomplished with a stun, crippling poison, dodges, all manner of other ways. An ability that basically amounts to a cowardly retreat is not in line with a Witch Elves persona. That is the question under discussion "Should WE's get Agile Escape." Not 'do they need a escape'. Maybe they do, be we are talking about the one they did get and whether it was a good choice. Heck, even a knockdown like others got would be more in line with a WE, because it would be a fitting offensive maneuver with the option of being used defensively. A leap out of combat is a purely defensive maneuver. Big difference. The OP figured this out in the very first post, mentioning several offensive maneuvers that could be used in the same way (eye rake, leg clip), but would be more in keeping with Witch Elf lore.

Yes, they could - but they wouldn't be as good. Stuns are already covered by the Choppa., Knock-downs are already covered by the Hammerer. Crippling poison is a non-dynamic solution that moreover functions to keep someone in range much more effectively than to get out of range. Dodges are also a non-dynamic solution. Agile Escape emphasizes the Agility of the Witch Elf, her ability to slaughter her opponents despite a lack of armor by never letting herself get in range of the opponents and then striking faster than they can react.


Well I found your attempt to play the Witch Elf up as very weak and squishy to be kind of bizarre. At Leipzig, Paul made the point several times to stress how fearsome and dangerous killers Witch Elves were. He mentioned how they are up front in the heart of battle, over and over, he didn't say anything about them being crushed in melee if they don't use their Agile Escape. I highly doubt anyone would play up Choppa's and Hammerers as weak and likely to squashed like a fruit fly, even though they are the exact same archtype as Witch Elves. The only reason people are thinking Witch Elves are weaker than those classes is because Mythic has played up the Rogue angle and it becomes a self-reinforcing point of contention.

I do not believe that the Witch Elf is weak and squishy or that Hammerers and Choppas are weak and ssquishy. I believe that Melee DPS careers are weak against tank careers, and that they are lightly/moderately armored -and I believe this because Mythic developers said so in the Waagh! career video. Hence, they need some way to deal with getting attacked by tanks in the same way that a Shaman needs EEEK! to get away from melee dpsers. Finally, I would note that Paul Barnett's intro video said nothing about them having armor or survivability.

That is my source of reference. Once again, stop using the rogue as a straw-man when I haven't brought it up before.

[Rerisen]

I do not believe that the Witch Elf is weak and squishy or that Hammerers and Choppas are weak and ssquishy. I believe that Melee DPS careers are weak against tank careers, and that they are lightly/moderately armored -and I believe this because Mythic developers said so in the Waagh! career video. Hence, they need some way to deal with getting attacked by tanks in the same way that a Shaman needs EEEK! to get away from melee dpsers. Finally, I would note that Paul Barnett's intro video said nothing about them having armor or survivability.

That is my source of reference. Once again, stop using the rogue as a straw-man when I haven't brought it up before.

Well you did mention them getting crushed like flies a few times. ;-) We both agree Melee DPS will get both snares to keep people close and probably other similar moves with a opposite use of getting away. We just don't agree on this particular one. To me its not just about making a list 10 of abilities that are different but do the same thing and then making sure each class gets one. You should try to match them up in a way that is fitting with the history of the class. This one doesn't fit for numerous reasons mentioned in this thread.

I use the rogue reference not because you personally necessarily used it, but because ever since the connection was made at Leipzig, many many folks have since used it as justification for how the Witch Elf is intended to play or is being built in mind of. Which to me is totally off base (see Witch Elf =/= Rogue thread). The best I can really say at this point is I understand your position that you think they need something like that and are happy with the choice made. It probably won't get changed so you don't really have to try and convince me your right. Those of us against it have voiced our objection and that's really all we can do.

I just can't wait till I'm blasting away some melee opponents in PVP and the Witch Elf fighting in front of me, suddenly 'Agile Escapes' over my head behind me, leaving a onrush of melee characters to slaughter her caster support. Meanwhile she is even farther away from the opponents squishes who she was supposed to be killing in the first place. :???:

[Lord Tareq]

Lightly armored and high damage alone are pretty weak links to being rogue-like. In that case Witch Hunter's are Rogue-like, heck Bright Wizard's are Rogue-like! If anything the Witch Elf would be more closer to something like the WoW fury warrior, just with less armor. Their mindset is basically akin to that of a Frenzying Khorne Warrior, only they make up for their less armor with faster attacks and poison. Like a Khorne Warrior, they wouldn't run away. If they need a mechanic to get away (due to game dynamics), there is plenty of ways to make one that does not appear so blatantly cowardly and defensive. I don't think people are arguing so much with what the mechanic allows you to do, so much as how it is accomplished and the style of it.

Well that might be your interpretation, but for me they definately have something rogue-like. Not a thief-like character but more of an assassin that doesn't hide but charges in. Why? They give the impression of being very agile, they use daggers/short swords, they use poison on their weapons, and they are overall very fragile. But perhaps I should rephrase Rogue to Tactical Fighter.
Not much in common with the wow fury warrior though imho, but if you want to see them as that then thats fine, although it doesn't change what I wrote in my previous post.

The point of my post (which you completely ignored to try and dismember my personal class interpretation) was that this "lore-breaking" ability only is so because of the name. You can use this ability in many ways to your advantage without breaking the lore. And if this ability is used by players as an escape move then thats fine as well, and should be up to the players personal preference. It is hardly more lore-breaking then just turning around and running away.

[Rerisen]

The point of my post (which you completely ignored to try and dismember my personal class interpretation) was that this "lore-breaking" ability only is so because of the name. You can use this ability in many ways to your advantage without breaking the lore. And if this ability is used by players as an escape move then thats fine as well, and should be up to the players personal preference.

I find that kind of a twisted way to look at things. I.e Sure its called a 'escape' and sure they made a point to show a Witch Elf you know 'escaping' with it in the demonstration, but maybe players will figure out a way to get behind their opponents and then leap backward to somehow land right at the feet of a caster! I think its pretty clear what the ability is for and that is to get away. If they merely wanted a range closer, they would have let them leap into combat not out of it. And maybe they can do that as well, but so far we haven't seen it. I think if they did have a leaping charge it would have been far more fitting to show that ability to demonstrate what they are all about than, "Hey look if you fearless witch elves get in trouble you can just jump away like a superhero."

Chances are when they show off the Marauder and the Witch Hunter, they won't be showing their main cool ability as one that let's them run away. Think about why that is and you will have a good idea what they are trying to portray as the personality of each class.

[Enkmar]

Because Witch Elves have never been described as 'Rogue-like' anywhere before Warhammer Online.

But they're rogue-like in Warhammer Online. They've said pretty openly that Warhammer Online won't be an exact replica of the tabletop game and lore, etc. This isn't the first "different take" on a piece of Warhammer lore, and it probably won't be the last.

If you're a big Warhammer fan, just take the good with the bad. The lore and such isn't a perfect mirror to the Warhammer pre-Warhammer Online, but you're still getting a (hopefully) really amazing Warhammer MMO.

[Vikingkingq]

Well you did mention them getting crushed like flies a few times. ;-) We both agree Melee DPS will get both snares to keep people close and probably other similar moves with a opposite use of getting away. We just don't agree on this particular one. To me its not just about making a list 10 of abilities that are different but do the same thing and then making sure each class gets one. You should try to match them up in a way that is fitting with the history of the class. This one doesn't fit for numerous reasons mentioned in this thread.

Not necessarily snares - they can be knock-downs, stuns, charges, etc. BUt in any case, they need abilities to keep close and abilities to get away.


I use the rogue reference not because you personally necessarily used it, but because ever since the connection was made at Leipzig, many many folks have since used it as justification for how the Witch Elf is intended to play or is being built in mind of. Which to me is totally off base (see Witch Elf =/= Rogue thread). The best I can really say at this point is I understand your position that you think they need something like that and are happy with the choice made. It probably won't get changed so you don't really have to try and convince me your right. Those of us against it have voiced our objection and that's really all we can do.

As long as you get that I don't think they're like rogues, we're good.


I just can't wait till I'm blasting away some melee opponents in PVP and the Witch Elf fighting in front of me, suddenly 'Agile Escapes' over my head behind me, leaving a onrush of melee characters to slaughter her caster support. Meanwhile she is even farther away from the opponents squishes who she was supposed to be killing in the first place. :???:
That doesn't seem to make sense. Witch Elves aren't tanks, it's not their job to protect support casters. And as far as moving further away, that's easily solved with practicing angling to push yourself to the side instead of straight back.

[mongoose]

While Im not going to defend Rerisens points completely I do agree with what was said in principle. (I was the one who made this thread afterall! :rolleyes:)

Now Im not denying that Agile Escape is a cool ability.

Im not denying that in will accomplish what its supposed to........disengage from combat.


My ONLY beef with it is that Mythic didnt make an effort to fit the lore....THATS IT.

It makes no sense that a unit that is frenzied be allowed at any time to simply just leap out of combat. These two things are not compatible with one another. If you truly understood the meaning of the word you would know why it dosent make sense from just a logical point of view.

Would it have been such a difficult and time consuming process to have all three things and not just two? Isnt there way to give the Witch Elf an ability that is:

a) Cool looking

b) Disengages from combat

c) Appropriate to the lore


According to all of you 'defenders' of this ability its obviously impossible to do because almost noone has come up with a way to meet all 3 criteria. :roll:


The best suggestion (and only one I might add) has been: Once a Witch Elfs frenzy has reached a certain point she is no longer able to use agile escape. Only after she has again gone beneath whatever that threshold point is will the ability once more become available to her. There will of course have to be a number of checks and balances as Xurre suggested but the idea in general would actually fit.


So do you want to keep pointlessly defending Mythics decision or would you actually like to pony up with an idea of your own that would meet all 3 needs? :confused: ;)

[Morag]

My ONLY beef with it is that Mythic didnt make an effort to fit the lore....THATS IT.

I mean would it have been such a difficult and time consuming process to have all three things and not just two? Isnt there way to give the Witch Elf an ability that is:

a) Cool looking

b) Disengages from combat

c) Appropriate to the lore


According to all of you 'defenders' of this ability its obviously impossible to do because almost noone has come up with a way to meet all 3 criteria. :roll:

Well, I'd say that all the elf info at this stage is probably rough and bare bones compared to the races that have been in development longer. If there is enough outcry over stuff like this then it could easily be changed to fit more in line with people's perceptions of lore.

I wouldn't call myself a defender of this ability per se. I do think it's a trivial point of contention though. I think if you read some of the other posts in the thread you would see ideas though. I suggested that it could easily be fixed by changing the word "Escape" to "Leap". Still the same functionality, but without the "controversial" word.

Also, to those who don't think Witch Elves are rogue-like, how do you not see it? They are lightly armored, highly mobile, poisoned weapon wielding, positional attacking, melee damage dealers; that sounds pretty rogue-like to me. It doesn't have to have anything to do with their lore. Mythic was saying that they are the closest thing they have because they share the most things in common with traditional mmog rogues.

[mongoose]

I wouldn't call myself a defender of this ability per se. I do think it's a trivial point of contention though. I think if you read some of the other posts in the thread you would see ideas though. I suggested that it could easily be fixed by changing the word "Escape" to "Leap". Still the same functionality, but without the "controversial" word.


Sorry but I dont consider changing a word solving the problem. In fact all I did was watch the maneuver for the first time (not knowing what it was called) and knew it didnt fit the lore.

The mechanics of the ability are still very contrary to a frenzied Witch Elf. As soon as you can explain why someone who has gone into a state of bloodlust, caring for little else other than the spilling of blood, can have the presence of mind to suddenly leap out of the situation on a whim, then we will talk.

[Estebar]

The mechanics of the ability are still very contrary to a frenzied Witch Elf. As soon as you can explain why someone who has gone into a state of bloodlust, caring for little else other than the spilling of blood, can have the presence of mind to suddenly leap out of the situation on a whim, then we will talk.

Khaine isn't keeping his Brides pretty for no reason. If all he cared about was irrational drug-fuelled frenzies of slaughter with no self-control (which I would say comes more under Khorne's jurisdiction), you'd think he'd transform the Witch Elves into spikey semi-daemonic monsters when they bathed in the Cauldron, wouldn't you?

No, the Murder God is all for using tactics to entice his enemies into a painful death, drawing out the killing blow for as long as possible. Why else would his Brides use teeny daggers and slow-acting poisons? One-hit kills are for Executioners! In making his most devoted nubile, beautiful and semi-naked, he has a little more than blade-blitzing in mind. He is the god of controlled, ritualised death after all. This is what keeps Khaine separate from Khorne.

And if you're looking for a situation where a bloodcrazed Witch Elf would have the presence of mind to suddenly leap out of the situation on a whim, look no further than the following example:

************************************************** ***************************

The Witch Elf takes a cut here and there from her opponent, delighting in the spatters of blood upon her skin, a malevolent gleam glinting within the brass orbs at the centre of her bloodshot feline eyes. With a lick of her lips, she suddenly throws herself backwards with a great leap, her arms outstretched wide, mockingly offering her naked body to the man she was growing so close to just a second ago.

As the man foolishly gives pursuit, a single black-fletched bolt travels out of the darkness from an unseen crossbow and embeds itself into the neck-shoulder joint supporting the man's good sword-arm. The limb suddenly falls limp as if the puppet string suspending it were severed, and the man looks down in horror as the paralysing poison begins to swell his fingers; the skin turning blue, the nails black. The Witch Elf closes in hungrily alongside her sisters who have also come out to play, drawn to the smell of fear and the kill which will now come so easily...in time...

************************************************** ***************************

How was that? A little rushed, but you get the point.

Yes, I say let the Witch Elves have their Agile Escape. Give them a Ferocious Pounce to go with it. And possibly some kind of somersaulting move to avoid those they'd rather leap over in order to engage their chosen prey.

Lets make the most of the least-armoured Elves in the game.

[Xiara]

We also have no info on how this ability actually works mind you. It could fit the lore fine if it can only be used when out of frenzy.

If we are going to follow lore perfectly, the Witch Elves should be locked in combat unable to move away from the enemy until one is dead. Now how fun would that be, getting yer arse kicked by a tank and not being able to run and save the exp debt? Not everyone likes dying constantly.

Seriously, if you think the game can follow lore 100% your in for a rude awakening, its impossible. Has to be improvise in some places, and a fragile Witch Elf escaping when out-classed is fine with me.

[Enkmar]

As soon as you can explain why someone who has gone into a state of bloodlust, caring for little else other than the spilling of blood, can have the presence of mind to suddenly leap out of the situation on a whim, then we will talk.

Because it's a video game.

[Morag]

Sorry but I dont consider changing a word solving the problem. In fact all I did was watch the maneuver for the first time (not knowing what it was called) and knew it didnt fit the lore.

The mechanics of the ability are still very contrary to a frenzied Witch Elf. As soon as you can explain why someone who has gone into a state of bloodlust, caring for little else other than the spilling of blood, can have the presence of mind to suddenly leap out of the situation on a whim, then we will talk.

Well, how would you design a combat escape move that "fits" Witch Elves? Keep in mind that it has to be about as powerful as Agile Escape, no single target stuns or knockdowns that are useless when there is more than one person attacking the Witch Elf. So far I haven't seen a valid suggestion made by the people who oppose the idea of Agile Escape.

[Foofmonger]

Since when are Witch Elves bezerkers with no concern for their personal saftey? Agile Escape fits the class just fine.

[Timanous]

I can see Witch Hunters doing the most damage in the game for some reason.

[Vikingkingq]

I can see Witch Hunters doing the most damage in the game for some reason.

Witch Hunters will be the coolest career in the game, no question.
As to damage, we'll do as much as is needed to kill every last Chaos-worshiping witch.

[mongoose]

How was that? A little rushed, but you get the point.

Yes, I say let the Witch Elves have their Agile Escape. Give them a Ferocious Pounce to go with it. And possibly some kind of somersaulting move to avoid those they'd rather leap over in order to engage their chosen prey.

Lets make the most of the least-armoured Elves in the game.

Actually no, I dont get your point. Sure I understood what you were trying to do but you failed to take into account frenzy. Mythic gave her frenzy as a core mechanic so I would 'hope' that it at least attempts to work like the TT just a bit.

Let me requote from the inital post:

Before battle, the Brides of Khaine drink blood laced with drugs which fills them with bloodlust and rage. Then they throw themselves at the enemy, showing them the foolishness of opposing the Druchii.

Witch Elves are affected by the rules for frenzy:

Certain warriors can work themselves into a fighting frenzy, a whirlwind of destruction in which all concern for personal safety is ignored in favour of mindless violence.


If you are frenzied you cant just voluntarilty decide not to be frenzied but yet Agile Escape lets you make that choice even though you have "thrown yourself at the enemy" and have no concern for your personal safety".

Sure I know we arent sticking to the TT all that closely but Agile Escape isnt even in the ball park of close. :rolleyes: All Im asking for is an ability the will allow her to disengage but works WITH the lore, not completely against it.

[WarMachine]

************************************************** ***************************

The Witch Elf takes a cut here and there from her opponent, delighting in the spatters of blood upon her skin, a malevolent gleam glinting within the brass orbs at the centre of her bloodshot feline eyes. With a lick of her lips, she suddenly throws herself backwards with a great leap, her arms outstretched wide, mockingly offering her naked body to the man she was growing so close to just a second ago.

As the man foolishly gives pursuit, a single black-fletched bolt travels out of the darkness from an unseen crossbow and embeds itself into the neck-shoulder joint supporting the man's good sword-arm. The limb suddenly falls limp as if the puppet string suspending it were severed, and the man looks down in horror as the paralysing poison begins to swell his fingers; the skin turning blue, the nails black. The Witch Elf closes in hungrily alongside her sisters who have also come out to play, drawn to the smell of fear and the kill which will now come so easily...in time...

************************************************** ***************************


You sold me.... Now where do I sign up?

BTW, that has to be the best descriptive arguement I've seen for it yet.

[Estebar]

Actually no, I dont get your point. Sure I understood what you were trying to do but you failed to take into account frenzy. Mythic gave her frenzy as a core mechanic so I would 'hope' that it at least attempts to work like the TT just a bit.

Let me requote from the inital post:

Before battle, the Brides of Khaine drink blood laced with drugs which fills them with bloodlust and rage. Then they throw themselves at the enemy, showing them the foolishness of opposing the Druchii.

Witch Elves are affected by the rules for frenzy:

Certain warriors can work themselves into a fighting frenzy, a whirlwind of destruction in which all concern for personal safety is ignored in favour of mindless violence.


If you are frenzied you cant just voluntarilty decide not to be frenzied but yet Agile Escape lets you make that choice even though you have "thrown yourself at the enemy" and have no concern for your personal safety".

Sure I know we arent sticking to the TT all that closely but Agile Escape isnt even in the ball park of close. :rolleyes: All Im asking for is an ability the will allow her to disengage but works WITH the lore, not completely against it.

The problem with a lot of your posts throughout this thread is that you base a lot of your argument on defining an individual Witch Elf (as in, the ones wandering around in WAR by themselves) by the group-mentality of a unit of Witch Elves (as in, the large closely-knit blocks of Witch Elves found on the tabletop).

Realistically, as in (prepare yourself now), taking a step back from the tabletop and not clinging to the army book like the lore-parasites that we are, it's a lot easier for a group of, say, 20 or 30 women to drive each other into a crazed frenzy, feed each other drugs and scream relentlessly about big hair and shoes, waving knives around, than it is for one lone Witch Elf to do by herself. Being part of a group mentality, you can rely on numbers for protection and be slightly less wary of your surroundings. This is why the tabletop definition of Frenzy also works. As the numbers dwindle in a Witch Elf unit, the unit loses Frenzy and gains enough self-control to recognise that a strategical maneuvre is required. Recognise the individual mentality of a single Witch Elf, and the added awareness of her situation running around by herself would bring.

Secondly, you're all too enthusiastic about branding the tabletop definition of Frenzy across every individual Witch Elf's forehead, and defining Witch Elves by their Special Rule in the tabletop.

I'll use a brief quotation from here: (http://uk.pc.gamespy.com/pc/warhammer-online/815892p2.html) Witch Elves attacks help them build up combo ("frenzy") points, unlocking powerful attacks that require a certain level of frenzy to initiate. They can also poison their blades, and imbibe their own concoctions. A potion might grant the Witch Elf a vastly improved attack, but lower her armor. Notice how the Witch Elves aren't frenzied to start off with in WAR as they are on the tabletop (when the large group of Witch Elves have embibed poisoned drug-laced blood together as part of a group ritual,) so Frenzy is not a permanent status and thus they cannot be defined by it. The player has to make his Witch Elf actively imbibe concoctions by herself, and these potions do apparently sacrifice some of the Witch Elf's personal sense of self-preservation in the face of cutting up her enemy a lot more ferociously, as per the quote.

Yet, there are instances when Agile Escape is justified (i.e. when the player hasn't made his Witch Elf imbibe any concoctions and thus she is aware of her own personal safety or the necessity of some sort of tactical maneuvre.) It's just a matter of whether or not Agile Escape and other such tactical maneuvres will be locked or replaced as the Witch Elf steadily accumulates frenzy points. Personally, I'm all for it, but I don't see why a Witch Elf shouldn't be allowed to have such a skill if she hasn't swallowed any concoctions to start with.

[mongoose]

The problem with a lot of your posts throughout this thread is that you base a lot of your argument on defining an individual Witch Elf (as in, the ones wandering around in WAR by themselves) by the group-mentality of a unit of Witch Elves (as in, the large closely-knit blocks of Witch Elves found on the tabletop).

Realistically, as in (prepare yourself now), taking a step back from the tabletop and not clinging to the army book like the lore-parasites that we are, it's a lot easier for a group of, say, 20 or 30 women to drive each other into a crazed frenzy, feed each other drugs and scream relentlessly about big hair and shoes, waving knives around, than it is for one lone Witch Elf to do by herself. Being part of a group mentality, you can rely on numbers for protection and be slightly less wary of your surroundings. This is why the tabletop definition of Frenzy also works.

Except that Im not imposing a "group mentality" on a single Witch Elf. You make it sound as if they work each other into a frenzy when it specifically states they imbibe a blood potion laced with drugs that cause the effect. Did I somehow miss the part where it states the work each other into this frenzy? :rolleyes:

Now Im not saying that for lore purposes they couldnt encourage one another but frenzy comes primarily from a drug induced state and its just as possible for an individual to become frenzied after drinking said potion as it is for a group.


As the numbers dwindle in a Witch Elf unit, the unit loses Frenzy and gains enough self-control to recognise that a strategical maneuver is required. Recognise the individual mentality of a single Witch Elf, and the added awareness of her situation running around by herself would bring.

Just as the TT rules state. If they are losing the have a chance to lose this state of mind but not on a whim. If a WE was in a one vs one battle and winning and frenzied, she would stay to finish off the poor schmuck even if the cavalry was coming over the hill.


Secondly, you're all too enthusiastic about branding the tabletop definition of Frenzy across every individual Witch Elf's forehead, and defining Witch Elves by their Special Rule in the tabletop.

Actually Mythic chose that brand...I didnt. They chose a VERY particular word and all Im doing is trying to stay within the spirit of its use.


Yet, there are instances when Agile Escape is justified (i.e. when the player hasn't made his Witch Elf imbibe any concoctions and thus she is aware of her own personal safety or the necessity of some sort of tactical maneuver.) It's just a matter of whether or not Agile Escape and other such tactical maneuvers will be locked or replaced as the Witch Elf steadily accumulates frenzy points. Personally, I'm all for it, but I don't see why a Witch Elf shouldn't be allowed to have such a skill if she hasn't swallowed any concoctions to start with.

Which is what I have stated two other times previously in this thread. (and now a 3rd) If she refrains from using the drugs then Im ALL FOR letting her jump out of a combat situation. It makes sense in this context.

[pooter26]

make it so it depletes you remaining frenzy points so either, spend the as much as you can in the fight to drop your enemy fast (the WE way) or dont, end up losing and wasting ur frenzy on agile escape.

[Sindal]

I have a question for all you witch elves out there, and yes I know we don't know to much about it nor seen it much. Does the ability seem to automatically move opposite of the players target and possibly cost frenzy points or is it just a backwards leap?

Reason I bring this up is I could see it becomming a possible offensive move if its not put in correctly.

Example, witch elf jumps bright wizard, swordmaster snares her as bright wizard runs off. Witch Elf spins camera oppisite and AE bam back in range.

Just a thought

[Ahmenus]

Now this is NOT a thread about how cheezy this maneuver is (already got one of those going in the game design section ;)) but more about how appropriate it is for a Witch Elf to have.

Now from what I know about the Witch Elf they are all about death and destruction, killing and hurting, with little regard for their own lives.

excerpt from the Witch Elf description:

Before battle, the Brides of Khaine drink blood laced with drugs which fills them with bloodlust and rage. Then they throw themselves at the enemy, showing them the foolishness of opposing the Druchii.


Witch Elves are affected by the rules for frenzy:

Certain warriors can work themselves into a fighting frenzy, a whirlwind of destruction in which all concern for personal safety is ignored in favour of mindless violence.


So Im not seeing how or even why a Witch Elf would even conceive of a maneuver like agile escape because "escape" really isnt part of their vocabulary (unless to indicate that someone ELSE is fleeing and they must be hunted down immediately! :twisted:)

I would rather they remove this ability and give the WE instead some sort of hindering ability like a leg clip (slowing movement temporarily) or a rake across the eyes (causing a sec or two of blindness). These maneuvers could be used by the WE to retreat (uncharacteristic though it may be :rolleyes:) but could also be used offensively. Whereas the agile escape is for one thing and one thing only.....running away, which I just dont see WE doing in battle.


It's simple.

Everything in games with daggers instantly becomes a sneaky like character.

NINJAS.

[Vornesoul]

It's simple.

Everything in games with daggers instantly becomes a sneaky like character.

NINJAS.

You know... It's possible to stab with short swords. They arn't quite as manuvable as daggers but they are quicker than longswords.


Short swords would have been a better weapon in my opinion. Give daggers and fist claws to Skaven Gutter Runner. :p;)

[mongoose]

I have a question for all you witch elves out there, and yes I know we don't know to much about it nor seen it much. Does the ability seem to automatically move opposite of the players target and possibly cost frenzy points or is it just a backwards leap?

Reason I bring this up is I could see it becomming a possible offensive move if its not put in correctly.

Example, witch elf jumps bright wizard, swordmaster snares her as bright wizard runs off. Witch Elf spins camera oppisite and AE bam back in range.

Just a thought

Well since noone outside of Mythic has actually played a Witch Elf (yet ;)) all w can do is speculate based off of what little was demonstrated to us.

It appeared to me that you basically used your opponent as a springboard to kick you backwards a certain distance. So it does seem possible that with some careful aiming you could conceivably do as you suggest (although difficult to pull off at best)

Also keep in mind that supposedly this maneuver has a 2 sec stun attached to it but atm that 'stun' begins the moment the maneuver is performed, meaning you are pretty much only stunned while in the air, unable to do anything anyway. I can only hope this was an oversight and that the stun will be applied after the WE has landed. This would make the ability almost impossible to use offensively.

You know... It's possible to stab with short swords. They arn't quite as manuvable as daggers but they are quicker than longswords.

Short swords would have been a better weapon in my opinion. Give daggers and fist claws to Skaven Gutter Runner. :p;)

Now now, its ok <pats rat on the head rather harshly> you are talking as if they are already stealing you thunder :rolleyes: There will be much more to the Black Skaven than just daggers so be calm(er) ;)

[Dagoth]

If we ignore the TT, the leap is a cool ability designed to give a melee dps class a chance to flee if she is losing.

But if we stick to the TT... there is no godamn difference, witch elfs aren´t slayers, they actually flee if they think they are losing.

But with this skill, they will flee with style :cool:

[Heno]

To all those saying they have frenzy on the tabletop, therefore they never run EVER.

You're thinking of Stubborn, Frenzy is a combat benefit untill you lose a round of combat, then it goes away. it makes you more likely to get into combat, but you're just as likely to run when things go bad as the next LD 8 model.

Since Agile Escape sounds like it' used to run from combat going badly, I don't see how this is lore breaking :/

[Zunjin]

To all those saying they have frenzy on the tabletop, therefore they never run EVER.

You're thinking of Stubborn, Frenzy is a combat benefit untill you lose a round of combat, then it goes away. it makes you more likely to get into combat, but you're just as likely to run when things go bad as the next LD 8 model.

Since Agile Escape sounds like it' used to run from combat going badly, I don't see how this is lore breaking :/

This posts breaks all your arguments.

[mongoose]

To all those saying they have frenzy on the tabletop, therefore they never run EVER.

You're thinking of Stubborn, Frenzy is a combat benefit untill you lose a round of combat, then it goes away. it makes you more likely to get into combat, but you're just as likely to run when things go bad as the next LD 8 model.

Since Agile Escape sounds like it' used to run from combat going badly, I don't see how this is lore breaking :/

And what about if she is winning? Dose she still get the option to use it then? :rolleyes:

/watches argument crumble into the dust

[Thoden Firehammer]

And what about if she is winning? Dose she still get the option to use it then? :rolleyes:

/watches argument crumble into the dust


Wow... I can't believe this is still going...

[Vikingkingq]

And what about if she is winning? Dose she still get the option to use it then? :rolleyes:

/watches argument crumble into the dust

Sure. Her victim is already dead from the poison, time to leap away to find another victim.

[Rerisen]

Lots of bad reasoning in this thread. Just because a class *can* run or is allowed to run without violating lore or personality, does not automatically equate to the idea that they should get a special fleeing mechanic more powerful and effective than everyone else. In fact, insofar as fleeing is not even close to a defining trait of a Witch Elf, you might as well give every single class in the game a equal or better escape mechanism.

And no, a stun, snare, or knockdown is not nearly as good as basically teleporting 30 yards away from a bad situation.

Heck, in comparing a Goblin or Skaven's bravery to that of a Witch Elf, those type of classes should be getting wow paladin bubbles or free portals back to their city by way of comparison of how much more likely they are to flee a fight.

[Vikingkingq]

Lots of bad reasoning in this thread. Just because a class *can* run or is allowed to run without violating lore or personality, does not automatically equate to the idea that they should get a special fleeing mechanic more powerful and effective than everyone else. In fact, insofar as fleeing is not even close to a defining trait of a Witch Elf, you might as well give every single class in the game a equal or better escape mechanism.

And no, a stun, snare, or knockdown is not nearly as good as basically teleporting 30 yards away from a bad situation.

Heck, in comparing a Goblin or Skaven's bravery to that of a Witch Elf, those type of classes should be getting wow paladin bubbles or free portals back to their city by way of comparison of how much more likely they are to flee a fight.

Judging from archetype videos and other interviews, I would imagine that every melee dps career will have some version of an escape mechanism.

[Heno]

And what about if she is winning? Dose she still get the option to use it then? :rolleyes:

/watches argument crumble into the dust

Why would you run if you're winning? That'd be a silly move on your part!

Outnumbered you say? On the tabletop you can lose a combat without losing a model if outnumbered, so yes, you can decide to run if numbers go against you.

[Tae]

And what about if she is winning? Dose she still get the option to use it then? :rolleyes:

/watches argument crumble into the dust

How does that make the argument crumble into dust ?

We've no idea how the actual skill works. It may well be that she only gets to use it once she's below 50% health, in which case it's perfectly in keeping with the TT lore.

[Rerisen]

According to the answer in this video, Agile Escape causes you to "drop aggro." Sounds like a pretty powerful PVE tool as well. WoW 'Vanish' comes to mind.

http://war.curse.com/videos/details/743/

[Thrakkesh]

Also they hint that she'll have moves that bring her into combat just as fast.

Oh, look at that! She's going to be highly mobile, possibly the most mobile of the melee DPS classes!