Melee DPS Armor

[headsik]

In the August 2007 podcast they told us about all Archetypes and the armor that they wear. Melee DSP wears light armor. But taking a look at the Whitch Elf and the Marauder, one would think that the Marauder would have more AP (thats Armor Points for you new kids) then say the Witch Elf. The Marauder looks like he is dressed for battle but the Witch Elf looks like they are ready for a trip to the beach. I'm currently on the fence about what class to pick (Marauder VS Witch Elf as you can no doubt tell since it's the only classes that I mentioned) I just dont want to play a class that can deal a bunch of DPS but when they get hit once or twice thats it (ie WoW mage).

[dahon]

I don't think there has been any reliable info on the armor types but it does look by appearances that the different melee dps may have different armor qualities as well

On a side note, AP in WAR is usually refering to Action Points considering they are your source for all skill usage in WAR. Not sure where armor points came from. Sounds familiar but can't remember what game called them that. I doubt WAR will since its too close to action points.

[Krulltak]

You heard wrong, jack. The Witch hunter and Witch Elf both have light armor, but the Marauder, Choppa and Hammerer all have moderate armor, ala chain-mail and some plate, but not full plate like a Heavy Tank class.

And from the latest news, the Choppa is apperantly the toughest Light Tank class.

[headsik]

You heard wrong, jack. The Witch hunter and Witch Elf both have light armor, but the Marauder, Choppa and Hammerer all have moderate armor, ala chain-mail and some plate, but not full plate like a Heavy Tank class.

And from the latest news, the Choppa is apperantly the toughest Light Tank class.

Thanks dude. You just helped me pick my class.

[Nastu]

Choppa = DPS... Light tank my butt! Only thing he'll be tanking is my Ironhammers axe in his face!

[Krulltak]

Choppa = DPS... Light tank my butt! Only thing he'll be tanking is my Ironbreaker's axe in his face!



Oh you ignorant, ignorant newbie.


Light Tank was the term in Dark age of Camelot (Mythic's last MMORPG) for a moderatly armored, heavy melee damage class.

The term melee DPS just doesn't make any damned sense at all, and I really prefer Light Tank, because it makes a lot more sense.

DPS= damage per second. Now that's not very good grammar when saying the archtype is "melee damage per second". What, so the archtype is literally damage, how the hell do you play damage? Do you see the grammatical error, Jack?

Not to mention, burst damage "builds" will also be available I'm sure, and not just DPS builds for weaker, but faster attacikng.

[Tonev]

Oh you ignorant, ignorant newbie.


Light Tank was the term in Dark age of Camelot (Mythic's last MMORPG) for a moderatly armored, heavy melee damage class.

The term melee DPS just doesn't make any damned sense at all, and I really prefer Light Tank, because it makes a lot more sense.

DPS= damage per second. Now that's not very good grammar when saying the archtype is "melee damage per second". What, so the archtype is literally damage, how the hell do you play damage? Do you see the grammatical error, Jack?

Not to mention, burst damage "builds" will also be available I'm sure, and not just DPS builds for weaker, but faster attacikng.


You know, I never really understood the term DPS for a given class either. It was always "Nuker" to describe casting/ranged classes and melee DD to describe a melee damager.

I think that term came around though maybe when WOW hit the scene because it was never used in SWG or GW to my knowledge (more appropiate for describing weapon's damage min-max).

[Krulltak]

I think that term came around though maybe when WOW hit the scene because it was never used in SWG or GW to my knowledge (more appropiate for describing weapon's damage min-max).

Yep. The term Melee DPS apperantly originated in WoW for the Rogue class, and for heavy damage Warrior builds and all that jazz.

In DAOC, a class like the Rogue would be called a Stealther, and if I remember right had moderate damage, combined with debuffing, but not as armored or as heavy in damage as a Light Tank.

[Hoodwink]

Oh you ignorant, ignorant newbie.

Light Tank was the term in Dark age of Camelot (Mythic's last MMORPG) for a moderatly armored, heavy melee damage class.

The term melee DPS just doesn't make any damned sense at all, and I really prefer Light Tank, because it makes a lot more sense.

You call them a tank yet by your own description of the archetype they aren't tanks.

From my point of view I don't see how that makes more sense than an accurate description of the career's basic function even if grammatically incorrect.

[Krulltak]

You call them a tank yet by your own description of the archetype they aren't tanks.

From my point of view I don't see how that makes more sense than an accurate description of the career's basic function even if grammatically incorrect.


.............oh boy, you don't realize how hard it is to resist the temptation..........




Did you notice, they are called LIGHT Tanks, as in, LIGHT, and not HEAVY, as in HEAVY Tanks, AKA the heavily armored taunting protecter classes of DAOC? Which by any other MMORPG, or more specifically WoW, would just be plain called Tanks. But I call them HEAVY Tanks, because I prefer the bloody DAOC names for the different archtypes.

[Hoodwink]

.............oh boy, you don't realize how hard it is to resist the temptation..........




Did you notice, they are called LIGHT Tanks, as in, LIGHT, and not HEAVY, as in HEAVY Tanks, AKA the heavily armored taunting protecter classes of DAOC? Which by any other MMORPG, or more specifically WoW, would just be plain called Tanks. But I call them HEAVY Tanks, because I prefer the bloody DAOC names for the different archtypes.

In every game I've ever played that had "Tanks" the tank's job was to absorb damage including WoW. There were a couple PvE encounters where classes other than warriors tanked. And in PvP tanking was even more loosely defined.

That's the whole point (which I thought was pretty clear). If they are not tanking then it is ridiculous to refer to them as any sort of tank.

Was it a light tank's job to absorb damage? I.E. did they do any actual tanking? If so, then I can understand.

[Krulltak]

In every game I've ever played that had "Tanks" the tank's job was to absorb damage including WoW. There were a couple PvE encounters where classes other than warriors tanked. And in PvP tanking was even more loosely defined.

That's the whole point (which I thought was pretty clear). If they are not tanking then it is ridiculous to refer to them as any sort of tank.

Was it a light tank's job to absorb damage? I.E. did they do any actual tanking? If so, then I can understand.


The Light Tank was called so because he had the second highest armor in the game, although "tanking" by the traditional RPG sense of the word, was not his job. His job was killing things, really fast.

Also, the word "tank", was used a lot more like it would be in real life.

Tank= heavily armored war machine that can despense heavy damage. Light Tank= more mobile, more lightly armored tank.

Which is pretty much a basic way of describing the two archtypes. Therefore, the way you're using tanking, in the RPG sense of it, makes no sense what so ever. Ironic, considering you're the one accusing DAOC's definition of being the wrong one.

But anyway. Heavy Tank= heavily armored melee-based defender and protecter.

Light Tank= moderatly armored melee based heavy damage attacker.

[Thoden Firehammer]

In the August 2007 podcast they told us about all Archetypes and the armor that they wear. Melee DSP wears light armor. But taking a look at the Whitch Elf and the Marauder, one would think that the Marauder would have more AP (thats Armor Points for you new kids) then say the Witch Elf. The Marauder looks like he is dressed for battle but the Witch Elf looks like they are ready for a trip to the beach. I'm currently on the fence about what class to pick (Marauder VS Witch Elf as you can no doubt tell since it's the only classes that I mentioned) I just dont want to play a class that can deal a bunch of DPS but when they get hit once or twice thats it (ie WoW mage).


Yeah you're reeally off here.

Melee DPSers all wear medium armor, however the Witch Elf and Witch Hunter are the exception, also AP is action points, think it like a rogues Energy, except every class uses it.

[Feigro]

He isn't off. The podcast says that the Melee DPS classes wear light armor. Not moderate.

Whether it's true or not isn't the point, but what he said is correct.

In the August 2007 podcast they told us about all Archetypes and the armor that they wear. Melee DSP wears light armor

The armor classified by the podcast is;

Tank = Heavy
Melee DPS = Light
Ranged DPS = Extremely Light
Healer = Moderate

Whether it's true is up for debate. But, that's also the same info they gave out on the archetypes doing the WAAAGH!! get together. So, current information would have us believe that a Shaman possibly has better armor than a Choppa, despite the aesthetics of it all. Especially considering there's no other info on armor types at the moment outside of beta information. The armor designations that appear on the class pages are all referring to the look of the character, which doesn't necessarily have any bearing on gameplay whatsoever.

Am I saying I personally think a Shaman has more armor than a Choppa? No. Though current evidence would suggest that's the case. Since they've chosen to make blanket statements about the archetypes.

[Krulltak]

Whether it's true is up for debate.

Exactly.


And if any of you actually bother to read the Armies of War page, it will quite clearly show you Choppa, Marauder, and Hammerer have moderate armor, thus matching the asthetic.

The only acception is the Witch Hunter, who wears light armor.


Obviously the podcast made a mistake.

[Feigro]

Krulltak, as I said, that information you're speaking of is regarding the look. Which may, or may not, have any bearing on mechanics.

Though, considering it was discussing one specific subject (the classes look), Believing it to be evidence as a mechanic would be no different than say... Reading the Ulthuan Backstory and assuming White Lions are a career merely because their name was mentioned.

I have read the armies page.

They aren't designating armor types. They're discussing the look of the class.

[Xurré]

That a melee damage dealer was called a “light tank” in DAoC is... an oddity of DAoC. In every other MMO I’m aware of the term would be misunderstood as “a class which can fulfill the role of the tank a little”.

Whether the terms “melee dps” and “tank” make sense or not is besides the point. What’s important is that within MMOs those terms are fairly generally accepted to describe certain specific roles. The “tank” is the class which draws attention to itself and can take lots of damage to keep the enemy busy for as long as possible. The “melee dps” (and their counterpart the “ranged dps”) class is the class which does as much damage as quickly as possible so as to defeat the enemies as fast as possible. In that sense “dps” makes sense in that they’re the classes whose function it is to do the most damage per second (though I personally prefer “melee damage dealer” since it’s more grammatically correct).

Calling it a “light tank” can only lead to confuse people.


As for the topic at hand, it’s likely that Witch Elves are the most lightly armored melee dps class in the game. That, however, doesn’t have to mean that they’re the most vulnerable. For instance, it’s also likely that they’re more focused on dodging and other such reflex-type defense. Sure, if they get hit they might go down faster than other classes, but the trick is that they’d get hit a whole lot less to compensate.

Having played a class like that in City of Heroes (a Super Reflexes based Scrapper) I can say that it’s quite interesting. If things go well they tend to go quite well and often, even if we’d lose, I tended to be either the only one left standing or the one with the most hitpoints at least. But if things go bad then they go very bad and there have been times as well where I was the first to bite the dust even if we ended up winning the fight.

It’s a very interesting mechanic to play, to me at least, as it makes you feel like you’re defying the odds. You know that you’ll quickly die when you get hit, but you laugh in the face of danger and often come out (mostly) unscathed.

Though I must admit that it makes the job more difficult for healers as they tend to have a hard time seeing when you’ll need heals and when not. Usually the best course of action is, when things seem to go bad, to try and leave combat and wait for a healer to have a chance to patch you up again.

I’m not saying that the Witch Elf will play like that (I don’t know how Witch Elves will play), but I’m saying that it’s a possibility. Definitely not for everyone though; some prefer to trust in the reliability of their armor. ;)


- Xurré

[Krulltak]

Krulltak, as I said, that information you're speaking of is regarding the look. Which may, or may not, have any bearing on mechanics.

Though, considering it was discussing one specific subject (the classes look), Believing it to be evidence as a mechanic would be no different than say... Reading the Ulthuan Backstory and assuming White Lions are a career merely because their name was mentioned.

I have read the armies page.

They aren't designating armor types. They're discussing the look of the class.

I see what you mean, but it would be pretty bloody ridiculous to give a class chain-mail and then suddenly say it's not as enduring as some little goblin in robes.


I also see your point Xurre, but I still prefer Light Tank, because to me it makes more sense then calling it a Melee DPS.

It also sounds one hell of a lot more professional.

[Feigro]

Yeah, for the record, I do agree. It'd be pretty silly if the Shaman had a higher armor class than that of the Choppa (Or the Runepriest over the Hammerer, etc).

Time will tell I suppose.

[Krulltak]

From some thread Baron Khaine posted yesterday, the dude explains the Shaman, Bright Wizard, and Squig Herder are indeed pretty damn fragile.

The Magus and Zealot both have heavy protection in melee due to the Magus' man-eating daemon disk, and the Zealot's debuffs combined with some damn good melee damage, but I still wager the Zealot is relativly fragile.

[headsik]

Yeah you're reeally off here.

Melee DPSers all wear medium armor, however the Witch Elf and Witch Hunter are the exception, also AP is action points, think it like a rogues Energy, except every class uses it.

i'm aware..thanks... reading the 2nd and 3rd post would make your post pointless..

[Crazy ol' dude]

Zealot related post here, sorry for this OT, but i just had to say it:
the Zealot's debuffs combined with some damn good melee damage, but I still wager the Zealot is relativly fragile.
BW waaagh vid, zealot charges, does a few swings which do almost no damage to the BW and dies shortly after.
If you're talking about Raelimar's impressions from PAX, then what he did was applying melee buff on himself(which was most likely meant for melee careers), armor reducing ritual (i guess), dotted, apllied single-target 1minute -25% damage debuff, and toggled auto-attack. And then wrote that Zealot can hold his own in melee.
To me it's something like a runepriest buffing himself with some heavy +armor and +damage etc. buffs and going auto-attacking aswell. Yes, he probably can do this, but that's just..not the way it should be done ;p

I know zealots have been stated as close combat support in archetype podcast, but judging from recent RvR vids and waaagh career discussion, all of his spells have about 65-100foot range (so there's no need to him to go meleeing), he got 2 protection spells from melee (breakable on damage 7 sec root and morale ability which absorbs melee damage) and also looking at Leipzig zealot vid. at some point the zealot is rushed by a hammerer and gets pretty much slaughtered so i assume zealot's t4 set armor value and his toughness is not really high. ;)

They could have changed spells range already and gave him more melee abilities than auto-attack and swing(aswell as protection ones), but i haven't found any proof of it yet, except maybe archetype podcast, but it could be misinformation aswell. I may have missed it tho, so thanks in advance if you could pm me with link showing zealot dishing out some damn good melee damage.

Or maybe zealot has so innovative close combat/spellcasting gameplay that it only exist in beta atm and they don't want to reveal it yet, so on the shows we only see his ranged version?
After all it's kinda Mythic's career, so they have free choice(to some extent) on how they want zealot to work and are changing their plans very often to see what would fit the best?

If you would like to discuss/post some serious info on this matter then please go here (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?p=453788#post453788)
Also: Gc Leipzig vid. (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17045) ; BW vid. (http://games.internode.on.net/filelist.php?filedetails=10465) ; Zealot abilities from recent rvr videos (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=434671&postcount=35)
Sorry for /OT

[Aiwë/Lyntz]

What's a tank role ? take damages, and protect allies.

In Daoc, we have lot of classes who can do this job, its why we call them Heavy tank ( Hero, Warrior, Paladin, Armsman ) and Light tank ( Mercenary, Reaver, Blademaster, Champion,Thane )

The difference between them, is not really their DPS, ( exept for Paladin who has the worse dps ) every tank ( Heavy and Light ) have a good melee dps.
But the difference is the skills and armor/shield.

The heavy tanks have more defensive skills ( guard, bodyguard, hight physic and magic resists, lot of hp etc ), than light tank who have more offensive skills ( charge, short duration buffs who increase dps, interupt skills, etc )

Daoc heavy tank : Hight armor/large shield and hight melee dps ( exept paladin :p ), many defensive skills and some offensive skills.
Daoc light tank : Medium or light armor/medium or small shield and hight melee dps, many offensive skills and some defensive skills.


I dont know how it will be for WAR, but i dont think the Witch elf, the choppa, the marauder, the hammerer and the witch hunter will have some defensive skills to protect allies , so if that true that will difficult to call them light tank.

[Vornesoul]

Since this is the Witch Elf forum, I'll direct my post more towards them.

I've been seeing many people go 'Oh! The T'N'A class! That armor doesn't make sense!'

When it infact does. Witch Elves love blood and wish to see it whenever it is spilled, including their own. It urges them on to spill more.

Heavy armor slows them down and hides any wounds they may suffer. They don't want that. The more blood, the better!

[Xurré]

I've been seeing many people go 'Oh! The T'N'A class! That armor doesn't make sense!'

When it infact does. Witch Elves love blood and wish to see it whenever it is spilled, including their own. It urges them on to spill more.
That and they love to feel the blood of their enemies that they spill spray across their bare skin. ;)


- Xurré

[Kellaris]

Daoc heavy tank : Hight armor/large shield and hight melee dps ( exept paladin :p ), many defensive skills and some offensive skills.
Daoc light tank : Medium or light armor/medium or small shield and hight melee dps, many offensive skills and some defensive skills.


I think WAR version of Light Tank will be Swordmaster or BG (low toughness, no shield and Big Gun) and Heavy Tanks will be IB and BO (Heavy armour big toughness and shields).
WE and WH are rogue/stealther/dagger classes.

And calling a class DPS may be popular, but is still illogical.
It is like calling a racing car: "MPH / KPH"
Or calling tanks: Armour Class.

[Thoden Firehammer]

i'm aware..thanks... reading the 2nd and 3rd post would make your post pointless..
Well .. to justify my post, it was before the podcast.