Archmage balance?

[FightDaPower1337]

been watching all the videos on Archmage lately and from what i see those guys can pretty much do anything heal, nuke, and drain magic... so i was wondering if anybody knows knows anything more on the matter for example like in order to heal they must fight or in order to fight officiently they must heal or are they only as good at healing by how much of those Drain Mana life taps or whatever? Cause they way they are talking they are saying they are the "best practitioners of magic in the world" seems a bit overpowered to me... Alas i will trust Mythic with the balancing because everybody who has played the game has said the balancing work has been excellent

[Rembrant]

Lore wise they are. But I trust Mythic will balance them appropriately. No point in getting in a twist over mechanics and abilities that haven't been announced yet. :D

As far as we know, from recent interviews, the archmage drains mana/action points from enemies through certain abilities they use. And with this new energy, they heal. Now, I doubt they would make a mechanic that requires you to damage in order to use healing abilities. More than likely, it will just enhance whatever healing they have.

[Axxar]

Well, it could be done so that your damage abilities all cause some drain on your opponent, which then powers your healing.

[Grimfell Gromgear]

Mythic won't intentionally make an unbalanced class.

Uninentionally however... well, we'll just have to wait and see.

[Estebar]

Lore-wise, the reason Slann Mage-Priests aren't out ruling the Warhammer World with their literally earth-moving power is because they're too busy considering cosmic matters which are beyond the universe as most other mortals know it.

They perceive time differently to the short-lived mortal creatures of the world and slip into extended periods of contemplation and thought that can last decades or even centuries at a time.

Endlessly, they ponder the meaning of time and the mysteries of the universe.

Elven Archmages, one step down from the Slann in terms of magical power, could work in a similar way to a much lesser extent. They are still focused on the goings-on of the mortal world, but they acknowledge that with great power comes great responsibility, and segment their focus in several different directions around the battlefield, hence their capability in multiple tasks mentioned: Draining, Nuking and Healing, as well as kicking with a staff.

They're balanced because they, themselves, strive to achieve a balance in their own power and capability. Instead of focusing their magical strength into a single, deadly destructive instrument like other, darker magicians, the Archmages recognise that their power must be drawn out into different directions in order to maintain a balance in the Winds of Magic, achieving a harmony amongst the Eight Winds which is essential to High Magic, "The True Art".

At least, that's the direction I'd take them in to balance them out in the lore. ;)

[Kaeldor]

Whatever they turn out to be, I don't think it was a good idea to officially call them the "strongest" mages, because that raises expectations.

AMs will complain that they were defeated by XY magic users ALTHOUGH THE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE THE BEST SOB SOB, and on the other hand, there will be some whining along the lines of "we'd defeated you guys, but you had (insert random number) of those OP AMs, so it wasn't fair anyway" kind of arguments.

[FightDaPower1337]

yeah i mean im sure they will do a good job balancing its just how they explained them as being the greatest practitioners of magic which made me question things... personally i want to be a bright wizard so i hope even though lore wise these archmages are awesome just hope it wont be like hey this guy can heal and drain mana screw inviting BW to the party kind of deal

[Nastu]

Well also remember two things:

All magic comes from Chaos

and

It seems that AM's are the only class that can wield several different winds

So yes in essence they are the most powerful (we all know hands down best in lore minus the Old Ones) casters in game. But that comes at a cost. I would say they are probably jack of all trades not quite masters in all and that they will be HEAVLY relient on "essence tapping" to get spells to the highest level. That would mean they arn't the usual burst DPS mages from other games but rather steam rollers that become more and more godlike as time goes on. Just my 2 cents.

[Revolutionomni]

I think most everyone is on the right track here, especially Estebar; as he's quite versed in High Elves. :D I'd only reiterate that the Archmage will most likely be the most powerful caster in the game, not because of big numbers in any direction/wind, but because it has a great magical adeptness that's been balanced into all the winds of magic. So yeah, I think they're right, they will be the most "powerful" because of their great magical versatility, which is their role.

As for the invites to groups, Archmages would best fill the support/healer in the group, while the Bright Wizard would be a great ranged damage dealer (that's their role). :) And only game balancing will decide if PvE groups can be pugged with nontraditional classes playing other roles: Archmage playing a damage dealer's role for instance. WoW was good about this in some areas but in the end, most raiding was so number based it became about classes playing their soul roles and only those roles; not very fun in my opinion.

So lastly, Archmage: most powerful caster in versatility but not most powerful damage caster. :wink:

[Purgling]

Game balance >>> Lore quotes. So the AM will be balanced by release. Every game sees class tweaks along the way but it certainly won't be obvious. Mythic has shown that they don't release half done crap.

But if it makes anyone feel better think of it this way. High Elf Archmages use magic for many purposes. But their focus would never be destruction as it is for Dark Magic, Chaos magic, or Waaagh magic. Therefore, although they are the masters of magic overall compared to the other races, they will never know the specialized raw fiery power of the Bright Mage and obviously won't be tapping into Dark, Chaos, or Waagh power. Their goodness limits them in some ways.

[Revolutionomni]

Game balance >>> Lore quotes. So the AM will be balanced by release. Every game sees class tweaks along the way but it certainly won't be obvious. Mythic has shown that they don't release half done crap.

But if it makes anyone feel better think of it this way. High Elf Archmages use magic for many purposes. But their focus would never be destruction as it is for Dark Magic, Chaos magic, or Waaagh magic. Therefore, although they are the masters of magic overall compared to the other races, they will never know the specialized raw fiery power of the Bright Mage and obviously won't be tapping into Dark, Chaos, or Waagh power. Their goodness limits them in some ways.

Indeed, not to mention that elves want to be good at everything. It fits their lore and will make for great game play. :)

[CHOP]

didnt they say somewhere that you have to drain the mana or whatever to heal?

[Revolutionomni]

didnt they say somewhere that you have to drain the mana or whatever to heal?

The Archmage will have an ability/abilities that "tap/drain" some kind of "energy" (not health) from enemies and from "around" them. That reserve of energy can be used for improved healing and buffs, aka: support spells - perhaps not excluding other types of spells. ;)

[cheesecake]

well an elf isnt very tough to start with but when he trains all those years in magic he will become very weak so therefore i believe that one of the main drawbacks of the arcmage is that he/she will have low surviveability and i mean low even for a spellcasters standards.

[Gaazruk]

well an elf isnt very tough to start with but when he trains all those years in magic he will become very weak so therefore i believe that one of the main drawbacks of the arcmage is that he/she will have low surviveability and i mean low even for a spellcasters standards.
if he is as balanced as all the other classes why weaken him further with low health?

[omnified_emu]

well an elf isnt very tough to start with but when he trains all those years in magic he will become very weak so therefore i believe that one of the main drawbacks of the arcmage is that he/she will have low surviveability and i mean low even for a spellcasters standards.

Are you sure about that cheescake? Magic will weaken anyone in the short term, just like swinging a greatsword repeatly would, but i cant recall any fluff that says it weakens elfs or anybody else in the long run. You sure you are not getting your lores mixed up?

The exception i know is necromancy, that does have some physical side effects for long term casting, through mostly mental. The other execption is arcane marks but acrane marks just make you take on the traits of the wind you are casting and i guess one of the acrane marks could weaken you, but elfs very rarely get arcane marks (since they have much better control of winds), arcane marks are almost excuslively human.

[Estebar]

well an elf isnt very tough to start with but when he trains all those years in magic he will become very weak so therefore i believe that one of the main drawbacks of the arcmage is that he/she will have low surviveability and i mean low even for a spellcasters standards.

Are you sure about that cheescake? Magic will weaken anyone in the short term, just like swinging a greatsword repeatly would, but i cant recall any fluff that says it weakens elfs or anybody else in the long run. You sure you are not getting your lores mixed up? cheesecake may have been thinking of Teclis, who balances out being the most powerful Archmage in the world by also being physically ill and frail, but that's only because he was born that way, not because he practices magic so often.

[Porter]

I remember when Mythic said void elds were the most powerful casters when camelot first came out. What a rofl that turned out to be.

Point being. I would not pay much attention to anything being said right now.

[omnified_emu]

cheesecake may have been thinking of Teclis, who balances out being the most powerful Archmage in the world by also being physically ill and frail, but that's only because he was born that way, not because he practices magic so often.

Yeah i was thinking he was just getting confused with teclis. But was wondering if he just knew some obsure lore that i was not famailar with.

Hey and dont go dissing on the void eldritch. We had a powerful dd, o wait light, fire, etc had more powerful dd, o wait i got it we had a powerful ae, wait no it was really pretty much baseline damage and no one really wanted it cause pbae(shakes fist agreely at mana enchanters) where 10 times as good. Hey we had powerful bolts, yeah powerful bolts thats it, o wait they only hit when you where soloing mobs, damn all those mids and albs being in combat with the air around them. Yeah we where pretty much hosed. But hey we eventually got gtae which where kind of fun, healers could hell way faster than you could do damage with them(damn long cooldown), and groups invited me all the time to rvr .......... alright all i was there for was to debuff(starts cursing mana enchanters again) and stun but hey i got invites, but i had my level 50 void eldritch and i was proud of it.

[Hampus]

They wont make them overpowered. Though they might, uninentionally.

[Lord Bulrin]

They wont make them overpowered. Though they might, uninentionally.

they might be overpowered, but as a support class, because for example my High Elf Mage saved my whole battalion many times against the forces of Slann Priests, and also lesser races like men on the battleground. Yet they were never good "nukers" if you werent lucky enough to roll 5 and choose Flames of the Phoenix (and also rolling 11+ is not an easy job). So I personally dont want to see Archmages who can solo against the witchelves ("Walk between the Worlds" will be very usefull here) And except tapping mana like blood elves it would be lovely to use "Blessing of Isha" ( of course Mytic needs to change that spell a bit) I think calling the class as Archmage confuses us, 'cos it seems that many of us waits wizards like Teclis. Maybe they ought to call it just "Mage", for it is what many of them are.

[wellsy]

Mage is a bit too close to Magus to be distinctive.

And besides, Arhcmage sounds cooler. And lets not forget, we're talking about High Elves here. Some of the most adept magicians in the world are Asur, and so making the in game characters not reflect that is fairly poor IMO.

[omnified_emu]

they might be overpowered, but as a support class, because for example my High Elf Mage saved my whole battalion many times against the forces of Slann Priests, and also lesser races like men on the battleground. Yet they were never good "nukers" if you werent lucky enough to roll 5 and choose Flames of the Phoenix (and also rolling 11+ is not an easy job). So I personally dont want to see Archmages who can solo against the witchelves ("Walk between the Worlds" will be very usefull here) And except tapping mana like blood elves it would be lovely to use "Blessing of Isha" ( of course Mytic needs to change that spell a bit) I think calling the class as Archmage confuses us, 'cos it seems that many of us waits wizards like Teclis. Maybe they ought to call it just "Mage", for it is what many of them are.

Not good nukers? Roll for spells? A lone mage stopping a Slann Priest?

High elf mages can nuke as well as anybody(with the exception of slann) it all depends on the lore and spells you give, and they have great magic items and skills to assist them. I guess you have never did or see the infamous 4 comets a turn high mage army of doom.

As for spell selection, at least half the high elf mages i see have loremaster.

What generation slann where these, did he have no stink priest support? You have your two dispel scrolls (if he is a caddie, and any mage can be a caddie) and then bam, there is no way any single mage can stop a lizardmen magic onslaught.

[Lord Bulrin]

Dear friend saying "forces of Slann priests" doesn't mean Slann priests themselves, but their army. And thru dispelling it is very easy to protect your men.

[Syr]

When they say most powerful magic that's likely just a lore thing, not that they have the most powerful spells or are the most powerful casters in the game mechanics. If they were the most uber casters and the elf healer, they would be unbalanced, so you can forget about an archmage being a solo pwnmobile. Damage wise the DPS casters will outdamage them by far, they'll have to in order to keep their role. Archmage will probably be healing + shutdown support (mana drains, interrupts) by my guess, with the damage potential of a shaman or rune priest, or if their defense is lacking then the damage potential somewhat higher than the shaman or runepriest.

I'm definiately keeping an eye on this class. As unlikely it is that I'll play a high elf, I like versatile classes with strategy to their playstyle.

[mongoose]

Well also remember two things:

All magic comes from Chaos

and

It seems that AM's are the only class that can wield several different winds

So yes in essence they are the most powerful (we all know hands down best in lore minus the Old Ones) casters in game. But that comes at a cost. I would say they are probably jack of all trades not quite masters in all and that they will be HEAVLY relient on "essence tapping" to get spells to the highest level. That would mean they arn't the usual burst DPS mages from other games but rather steam rollers that become more and more godlike as time goes on. Just my 2 cents.

Well not really "hands down". Dont forget that before the sundering the Dark Elves had the same access to the teachings of the Slann as any other Elf and the TT makes very little distinction between a DE High Sorceress and a HE Archmage...the only appreciable difference is the Archmage gets to choose to take one of the lores or High Magic where as the High Sorceress is limited to Shadow Death and Dark Magic......its only a 5 point difference between the TT units though. Of course why the DE would basically shun High magic I find somewhat perplexing.

[wellsy]

The DE worship Khaine (and to an extent, Slaanesh). Thus, while the Asur strive for balance and detachment, which forms the underlying basis for High Magic, the Druchii are emotional and extremely unbalanced (in terms of balance, I refer to balancing offensive, defensive and healing power) in favour of attack.

Thus, it is natural for the Druchii to shun High Magic; though it is superior to Dark Magic, it is also a part of the respective philosophies of the Asur and the Druchii.

My two cents.

[mongoose]

The DE worship Khaine (and to an extent, Slaanesh). Thus, while the Asur strive for balance and detachment, which forms the underlying basis for High Magic, the Druchii are emotional and extremely unbalanced (in terms of balance, I refer to balancing offensive, defensive and healing power) in favour of attack.

Thus, it is natural for the Druchii to shun High Magic; though it is superior to Dark Magic, it is also a part of the respective philosophies of the Asur and the Druchii.

My two cents.

Yes I know all of that but I would have expected the DEs to take High Magic and twist it to suit their own needs instead of completely disregarding it. It would be more logical imho if they had a form of High Magic that uses some of the same spells but then perverts/twists others.

[Estebar]

Yes I know all of that but I would have expected the DEs to take High Magic and twist it to suit their own needs instead of completely disregarding it. It would be more logical imho if they had a form of High Magic that uses some of the same spells but then perverts/twists others.

Using a force of pure creation creatively isn't anywhere near as impressive as bending a force of pure destruction to your will in order to use it as a creative tool.

[Valdamar]

Threads like this are just needless worry. When open beta comes up, when the game is close to release start stressing, but right now, you're not going to get anything other than other people's guesses.

[Screwhealz]

can u plz link those vids, id like to see how the archamge plays very much and iv yet to be able to find a video of them.

[Screwhealz]

been watching all the videos on Archmage lately and from what i see those guys can pretty much do anything heal, nuke, and drain magic... so i was wondering if anybody knows knows anything more on the matter for example like in order to heal they must fight or in order to fight officiently they must heal or are they only as good at healing by how much of those Drain Mana life taps or whatever? Cause they way they are talking they are saying they are the "best practitioners of magic in the world" seems a bit overpowered to me... Alas i will trust Mythic with the balancing because everybody who has played the game has said the balancing work has been excellent

post links to these vids that ur talking about

[wellsy]

I think he's referring to the presentation Paul gave in the newsletter and the Leipzig presentation.