Is there enough lore for a High Elf pet class?

[Revolutionomni]

There's been lots of threads discussing this, but I want a center point for it. (hopefully EA Mythic sees it and even comments too!) :)

Is there really enough High Elven lore to support a balanced pet class? Do we NEED it, do we really WANT one? :confused:

I say: No: I haven't seen enough lore, nor have a great desire for High Elves to have a pet class. While it hasn't been confirmed, there's a good chance Shadow Warriors and White Lions will be in and if they are, I see no solid, balanced justification for either of them to have a pet. :mad:

What do you think? :D

[pzykozis]

I think that the lore can be bent alittle as in the zealot. Most people seem to want a white lion pet for their white lion (strangely enough)

Also you've addressed devs so i presume this thread will be closed soon

[Jumpe]

Beastmaster for dark elves as a pet class imo.

No pet for shadow warriors or white lions at least!

[Noesis]

I really could care less if there was a pet class for High Elves. In my opinion Mythic seriously dropped a 10 ton ball when they didn't include giant mastiff warhounds as pets for the Witchunter and made the witchunter the pet class for order.

Just my two cents. I think it would have made alot more sense to give a ranged dps class (the witchunter) a giant rabie crazed hound than it does to try and stretch the lore and include a pet class for the high elves.

One could even have different breeds of warhounds (like the squigs).

[Garthilk]

What makes you think there needs to be lore for a pet class?

[Revolutionomni]

What makes you think there needs to be lore for a pet class?

I think WAR is very unique so far and a lot of that comes from their devotion to lore: not allowing genders for some racial classes, only allowing "these" types of weapons for this racial class and it goes on and on.

Sure they could just make something up, or say "we saw a picture of a High Elf doing it!" But we don't "need" one and a lot of the elves are cool enough on their own; unless it's a cool huge dragon or Giant Eagle!

Lastly, I really do believe they should at some point introduce Wood Elves as playable characters, and it's they who should have pets, right? (I don't know the most about Wood Elves, just seems more appropriate.)

[Biocide]

Either way's fine by me, as long as the White Lion gets put in. I love my fist punching melee dps classes. If it's not that, I'd rather have a pet class that uses a wyvern or some such thing, just so I can steal the name Kain and call it a good day.

[Aeldor]

Wood Elves have just as few likeley pet classes as high Elves tbh. They can ride Hawks, but thats pretty much a mount thing in the same vein as a horse rider. The only thing that really comes close for Wood Elves i guess would be the little imp/spite things that follow them around. Certainly theres no actual control on the Wood Elves part though. Just because a race lives in the woods doesn't mean it controls/lives symbiotically with animals.

As for a High Elf pet class. Meh theres other places this has been discussed to death.

Great Eagles. Eagles can't be a true pet class as they are never, ever controlled by any High Elf. They are very individual, very sentient beings, who sometimes talk to Loremasters, and sometimes fight alongside the elves. The thought of a player 'ordering' one to attack is ridiculous.

White Lions. These have been proved recently to be able to be tamed, possibly non-corrupted versions or whatever could be used. They would however detract from the power and ability of the White Lion soldiers themselves, which people seem to think are all-powerful. In TT however, White Lions are rarely used in strength, as they are not as skilled in CC as other similar units (Swordsmasters have higher WS and strike in initiative order, white lions ALWAYS strike last/Phoenix Guard have better Leadership, Armour, and cause fear.)

Elementals. Another mage class may be on the cards, it would work and would possibly stick to fluff happily. (In old Warhammer Mages could summon elementals/minions) However it would be hard to make them sufficiently differant from Archmages, and i feel it would be a terrible shame to leave out an archery class for the best archers around.

Woodlands animals. A suggestion that Shadow Warriors could make use of animal minions, because everyone knows that rangers have animal pets, right...? Silly idea in my mind, because the place Shadow Warriors live is notoriously devoid of 'friendly' animals.


My own opinion.

White Lions are not really all that good in the TT. With a companion, maybe a small young lion, possibly as a dps'er, possibly as a de/buffer, they would come more into line with the other classes. They would keep their high damage at the cost of survivability, and have a pet which aids them in doing other stuff.

P.S This is all assuming they dont go back to the old White Lions, who had 3 or 4 special stances, and tore new ones in most units they came across. My point - Warhammer lore changes with the seasons. Getting wound up about warhammer lore is silly, it will change in time anyway.

[Krulltak]

I'm not voting for ANY OF THEM.

And personally, NO NO NO NO. High Elves SHOULD NOT HAVE A BLOODY PET CLASS.

I feel Mythic was forced into the situation by the damned fanboys who don't even know the lore!

[Ojike]

There probably will be a HE pet class just so that Order get one. But i don't care either way, i will just aim at them and kill them in game anyway ! :P

[Julius]

I'm not voting for ANY OF THEM.

And personally, NO NO NO NO. High Elves SHOULD NOT HAVE A BLOODY PET CLASS.

I feel Mythic was forced into the situation by the damned fanboys who don't even know the lore!

I agree. There is no need for a pet class and there is no lorebase for it. Go play horde if you want one.

[Aethelbeorht]

Just my two cents. I think it would have made alot more sense to give a ranged dps class (the witchunter) a giant rabie crazed hound than it does to try and stretch the lore and include a pet class for the high elves.

Witch hunter is melee DPS, not ranged. Ranged DPS for Empire is the Bright Wizard. The fact that the witch hunter carries pistols does not make them ranged... "While your pistol can be a powerful and devastating weapon under the right circumstances, it is slow and awkward to reload."



I agree. There is no need for a pet class and there is no lorebase for it. Go play horde if you want one.

Horde? I assume you mean destruction and/or greenskins?

The whole point is moot anyway. They've already confirmed a HE pet class (but haven't named details), so whether or not you want one, it's going to be there.

[Ranti]

I agree. There is no need for a pet class and there is no lorebase for it. Go play horde if you want one.


what?


......never heard of a "Horde" in Warhammer before

well minus the traditonal meaning of it as a large group of something, is there a riot going on somewhere?


*I hope he just had a brain-fart and wasn't making a WAR=WoW joke....

[Krulltak]

......never heard of a "Horde" in Warhammer before

Well there is the Hordes of Chaos.

[Aethelbeorht]

Well there is the Hordes of Chaos.

Yeah, but they don't have a pet class.

[Hive]

Yeah, but they don't have a pet class.
Do the souls of those they've slain count as pets?

[Grrblt]

What makes you think there needs to be lore for a pet class?

It's called the Tome of Knowledge.

[Purgling]

I don't have a problem with it. A melee DPS with a pet sounds different. Different is good.

[dynamo112]

I don't have a problem with it. A melee DPS with a pet sounds different. Different is good.

Agreed, different AND fun. Almost toooo fun.... :p

[Revolutionomni]

Whow, at this point:
No: 10
Yes: 9
Meh, follow lore: 16
PAUL, SUNGLASSES, WHITE BOX TECHNOLOGY: 6 :mrgreen:

As I see it, there are plenty of people that enjoy pets classes. However, it's clear to me that people want WAR to stick as close as possible to lore and create classes accordingly; what they've been doing a good job of.

As for those like me that picked "no", we may end up with a pet class whether we like it or not. My hope is that they come UP with some great lore to support it and that the pet class turns out great and not a pet leading an elf, or an elf who needs a pet. Again, I'd be perfectly fine without a High Elf pet class. :D

Lastly, I'd love to point out that Paul is not doing bad on the charts either! "Paul's" 6 is only 3 less than "Yes". Maybe he'd have attacks that are cleaver one liners, or he'd make you cry from his mockery. :twisted:

[Mirander]

The lore exists to make White Lions a pet class; or rather, the lore will exist soon enough. The WHFB High Elves are getting a lion-pulled chariot with their next army book. If they're domesticated enough to pull chariots, then they're domesticated enough to act as pets for White Lions.

[Estebar]

White Lions. These have been proved recently to be able to be tamed, possibly non-corrupted versions or whatever could be used. They would however detract from the power and ability of the White Lion soldiers themselves, which people seem to think are all-powerful. In TT however, White Lions are rarely used in strength, as they are not as skilled in CC as other similar units (Swordsmasters have higher WS and strike in initiative order, white lions ALWAYS strike last/Phoenix Guard have better Leadership, Armour, and cause fear.) Yes, but units included as classes in WAR are modified to fit in with the four archetypes. Despite the Swordmasters having higher WS and strike in initiative order, seeming to be a likely candidate for the Melee class themselves, they were modified to become the Tank archetype, despite the Phoenix Guard appearing as the more likely Tank archetype given their protective role on the tabletop.

No matter how poor you think the White Lions are on the tabletop, they can easily be modified to be fully capable Melee DPS fighters without the need of a pet class. They are strong elves wielding great big axes, after all.

Besides, there's a rumour going around that it's likely in the 7th Edition, High Elves are going to lose their Intrigue at Court special rule, but every unit will be gaining an Always Strikes First rule, which might knock out that Always Strikes Last rule for White Lions, and make them deadly at Strength 6 on a charge. :o[/QUOTE]

[Aeldor]

In fairness I see the Swordsmasters as perfect Elven tanks. They have the skill at arms to best any opponent in combat, and skill can easily be used defensively. In TT their weapon skill of 6 makes them amongst the most able warriors in the entirity of the Warhammer world, and makes it very difficult for an opponent to hit them. When it comes down to it, High Elves are really not made to take hits, they are all essencially pretty weak, however skill and agility have always been their best defense. It's for this reason I think Swordsmasters were the only real choice availablel for a tank.

Aye I heard about that rule, and to be honest it's very powerful, would finally bring the High Elves back in line with how they are supposed to fight imo. I will certainly be playing White Lions in my army if that is true, especially as they are also gaining the skirmisher rule, with the exception that if charged they instantly reform into ranks. Quite overpowering with the S6 strike first axes. :p

As for Mirander, I can see the point you are making, it was I who originally posted the White Lion chariot on here. My only argument to that is that in theory a big bloke with a big axe should be enough. If he needs a lion to be effective, then comparitively he becomes weaker. Also, using an animal as a beast of burden is one thing, but have you ever seen a person order a donkey to fetch something?

[Purgling]

The way I see it, Order has no TT unit that really has a workable pet to frame a pet class around. So it's going to be a stretch at best no matter which race/unit you use to base the pet class on. White Lions are a cool unit with lots of great lore so it may as well be them. The real debate is... how much in of their damage is going to be based on the pet?


My only argument to that is that in theory a big bloke with a big axe should be enough. If he needs a lion to be effective, then comparitively he becomes weaker.


Agree that's a problem. The range goes from the pet not doing much and effectively becoming a Dot to being very tough which would make the White Lion a big puss if his pet dies. Personally I would like to see the pet being fairly hard to kill but doing little damage. Or...if the pet does die the White Lion gets pissed off and his attack strengh goes up for a while to at least partially compensate.

[Aethelbeorht]

Or...if the pet does die the White Lion gets pissed off and his attack strengh goes up for a while to at least partially compensate.

Now that's an interesting idea. He wouldn't be as effective long term once his pet gets killed, but that lets the pet still be more than some fluffy kitty and not make him a total pansy when it inevitably gets killed. I rather like that idea. It's a pretty sweet concept.

[Nerothos]

I'm sure you can search the High Elf forums for about half a second and find one of my lengthy rants about High Elven pet classes.

I voted no on all cases. Don't want it, don't need it (even for balance), and doesn't fit nicely with the lore.

[Revolutionomni]

Or...if the pet does die the White Lion gets pissed off and his attack strengh goes up for a while to at least partially compensate.

At this time I'm against a pet but, I as well love that idea if he does become the pet class with a lion. Just as I was reading your post it was as if I was writing what I was thinking.

So in effect, you could make the lion fairly vulnerable and deal almost as much damage as the White Lion, but if there's AOE attacks or it's focused on, it should die first, making the White Lion go briefly: wild-berserk-elf-man-wielding-two-handed-body-splitting-axe!!!

Hum :idea: Yeah....YEAH!... What if, when you get to the level where you can learn to ride mounts, the White Lion learns to ride - HIS LION! That would be so awesome! Come riding in on your roaring mount, the enemy content that you've finally dismounted from your beast, only to find that it's now charging at them along side the raving White Lion! Picture perfect I tell you! :twisted:

Again, at this time I don't want him as pet class, but if they could maybe make it so the White Lions are taming and training them to, say, become strong and trustworthy lions for their Chariots, that MIIIIGHT win me over; given new well written lore backs it up, and their mechanics are something as we're discovered! ;)

[Estebar]

Come to think of it guys, can anyone think of an adequate game mechanic for a White Lion if it doesn't involve a white lion pet?

Most of them seem to have a build mechanic based on their special rules or personality, such as religious frenzy (Witch Hunter, Witch Elf, Marauder), berzerker rage (Choppa) and weight-maneuvering momentum (Hammerer). They all seem to involve a mechanic which allows the melee dps class to gain increasingly powerful special attacks until finally delivering a crippling finisher.

Aside from maybe having a momentum-based mechanic like the Hammerer (except based on heavy axe-swinging instead of using a hammer), I can't really think of anything else that they could use with a White Lion. He's not that fanatical or frenzied. High Elves are dedicated to keeping their emotions under control, and never giving themselves over completely to one god, so neither could be turned into a combat technique for the melee class.

Maybe this is why they decided to give him a pet. It would be a shame if he missed out on some kind of build or self-buff mechanic which every other melee dps class seems to have, although I imagine they'd make up for this by giving the Archmage some pretty powerful or widespread group buffs, or just give every Elf class some semi-magical minor self-buff skills.

EDIT: Someone mentioned, early on in this thread, the possibility of giving them stances based on their rules from a much older edition of the tabletop game, but seeing as they've already basically given stances to Swordmasters as 'Blade Dances', I doubt they'd give the same mechanic to another High Elf class.

[Yavvy]

Also, using an animal as a beast of burden is one thing, but have you ever seen a person order a donkey to fetch something?If you're going to compare lions to a domesticated animal, try dogs. They're both carnivores that hunt in packs.

And guess what, dogs are used for fighting, fetching and pulling sleighs ;)
So in effect, you could make the lion fairly vulnerable and deal almost as much damage as the White Lion, but if there's AOE attacks or it's focused on, it should die first, making the White Lion go briefly: wild-berserk-elf-man-wielding-two-handed-body-splitting-axe!!!

Hum :idea: Yeah....YEAH!... What if, when you get to the level where you can learn to ride mounts, the White Lion learns to ride - HIS LION! That would be so awesome! Come riding in on your roaring mount, the enemy content that you've finally dismounted from your beast, only to find that it's now charging at them along side the raving White Lion! Picture perfect I tell you! :twisted:Awsome! :D

Add in some combo moves between the lion and the WL (how they build power), and it seems a very interesting and unique career.

[VeriusCarth]

Come to think of it guys, can anyone think of an adequate game mechanic for a White Lion if it doesn't involve a white lion pet?

I was about to mention a mechanic where the White Lion gets angry while his lion gets beaten on, giving the lion debuffs for when it's not focused on, and the more punishment the lion takes, the more damage that the White Lion does... but I realized that's the hatred / grudge mechanic. D:

Mythic, surprise me. Please. >.<

[Hive]

If you're going to compare lions to a domesticated animal, try dogs. They're both carnivores that hunt in packs.

And guess what, dogs are used for fighting, fetching and pulling sleighs ;)
Awsome! :D


Or better yet, compare them to a housecat, because they're... well... cats.

And guess what, housecats fight only when they want to, they don't fetch, and they won't pull anything. ;)

And if you can get a housecat to do something it doesn't want to without ending up covered in scratches you might want to change your name to Dr. Dolittle.


*edit

Might I also add how bad of an idea having White Lions getting their namesake as pets is? Unless you're a fan of a million elves named Sigfried and Roy.

[Aethelbeorht]

Might I also add how bad of an idea having White Lions getting their namesake as pets is? Unless you're a fan of a million elves named Sigfried and Roy.

Meh... not like it'll really make that big of a difference. They'll hardly be noticeable amongst all the Legolases running around.

[Yavvy]

Or better yet, compare them to a housecat, because they're... well... cats.

And guess what, housecats fight only when they want to, they don't fetch, and they won't pull anything. ;)

And if you can get a housecat to do something it doesn't want to without ending up covered in scratches you might want to change your name to Dr. Dolittle.Cats aren't social. Lions are.

Basically, a housecat is alone most of the time, while lions are in packs. Packs require coordination, aka telling others what to do. Thats why comparing to dogs is more relevant, as wolfs hunt in packs, too.

[Hive]

Cats aren't social. Lions are.

Basically, a housecat is alone most of the time, while lions are in packs. Packs require coordination, aka telling others what to do. Thats why comparing to dogs is more relevant, as wolfs hunt in packs, too.

Social or not they're still cats-- a completely different animal when it comes to trying to train them.


robert a heinlein said it best,
“Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.”

[Yavvy]

Its already been proven they've tamed them enough to pull a chariot (which a cat won't do).

If you still insist its impossible, they use magic to do it.

[Hive]

Its already been proven they've tamed them enough to pull a chariot (which a cat won't do).

If you still insist its impossible, they use magic to do it.

sigfried and roy used magic to try and tame big cats... and you saw where that got them.

[Estebar]

Lions were tamed. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_taming)

Otherwise, how did this (http://www.foliofinder.com/portfolio/Matt_Eastwood/liontame.jpg) every happen?

[Thorval]

Lions can be a very loyal animal under the right circumstances. I like the idea some people came up with of you being able to take a lion cub in after you butcher it's mother, then rip the skin from her flesh all while this baby lion is like "momma?"

Then you slap the bloody pelt around your neck and say "hey little buddy, want to help me slay some dragons and monsters and sh*t all while i wear your mother's skin?"

[Selandri]

Well, that was mildly disturbing.

Unsure what to vote. Mythic have proven they can deviate from the lore, the Zealot exists purely in their imagination ( Though there is a Zealot career in WFRP it isn't close to the Zealot in WAR ) and they could do this again for the High Elf pet class.

On Wood Elves, there is some lore supporting beastmaster classes in the older books. Less so in the new one.

Also it's difficult to determine the lore since, as pointed out, it changes with the seasons. The new High Elf army book is due Novemberish? Been a while since I looked, so they may introduce an entirely new class in the book.

[Estebar]

Lions can be a very loyal animal under the right circumstances. I like the idea some people came up with of you being able to take a lion cub in after you butcher it's mother, then rip the skin from her flesh all while this baby lion is like "momma?"

Then you slap the bloody pelt around your neck and say "hey little buddy, want to help me slay some dragons and monsters and sh*t all while i wear your mother's skin?" Law of the wild. It's a treacherous dog-eat-dog world out there based on survival instinct where the weak are picked off and the strong live on. Animals don't hold grudges. Father lions kill their unruly young as a tough disciplinary act all the time, but the father is not resented afterwards. The loss of the child is mourned for maybe a day or two, but you get over it pretty quickly in the animal kingdom.

The mother is killed. The cub is too small and weak to fend for itself, and is too young to mate and create its own pride of lions for protection. If a big creature which smells of the wilderness, knows how to hunt, feels like the fur of a white lion, and carries the scent of a white lion provides the cub with food, protection and survival tactics which it has lost from its mother's death, it's hardly going to turn its nose up at the opportunity to live a little longer. Again, animals don't hold grudges. Except elephants, of course.

[Hive]

Actually, I was doing some research into this. From the accounts in the high elf 5th and 6th ed. books, I now believe that the white lions have more in common with a mountain lion (cougar) an extremely unsocial cat rather than with an african lion.

The habitat of the chracian white lion is mountains and deep forests, as per a cougar, rather than the savannahs of african lions. Add in the fact that an elf hunts the white lion alone and only with hand weapons also leads me to believe that the white lions are solitary predators-- otherwise the elf would have to fight an entire pack rather than just the one s/he needs.

Training a lion to do tricks is one thing, but training it to do tricks and letting it keep it's natural combat ability for battle is another. You're just asking for trouble when you do that.

Beyond all of that, I would still hope that rather than ruining the lore of an awesome TT unit with some gimmicky pet they would just add in a new class with it's own lore. This, however, brings up another problem-- high elves aren't really know for their interactions with animals outside of horses and the highly intelligent eagles and dragons.

I'd have to agree with Noesis that mythic jumped the shark by not going with a mastiff for witch hunters-- at least there would be some lore (mordheim though it may be) to back it up. To take it even further-- do we need pet classes at all? They're a class that excells at soloing-- but this is supposed to be a group oriented game. They're also a pain to balance-- either you make them so weak that they're next to useless in groups or so powerful that everyone else hates them... I guess i just never understood the appeal.

[Revolutionomni]

Hive, you hit the nail on it's head. Those are the reasons why I don't want the High Elves to have pets. Sure we can come up with ideas for how it could work, but was it needed? When everything is said and done, I hope they put their best efforts forward, so what we have to live with will be both balanced and fun to play. ;)

Is it true there's a new High Elf Army book on the way? If so, maybe that's the info they'll be using to justify it. We'll see I guess. :confused:

PS: I still say if they get the lion, they should be able to use it as a mount when they learn to ride! :cool:

[Estebar]

Training a lion to do tricks is one thing, but training it to do tricks and letting it keep it's natural combat ability for battle is another. You're just asking for trouble when you do that.[.QUOTE]"Lion taming is the practice of taming lions, either for protection, whereby the practice was probably created, or, more commonly, entertainment."

[QUOTE=Hive;463754]Beyond all of that, I would still hope that rather than ruining the lore of an awesome TT unit with some gimmicky pet they would just add in a new class with it's own lore.

I'd have to agree with Noesis that mythic jumped the shark by not going with a mastiff for witch hunters-- at least there would be some lore (mordheim though it may be) to back it up. To take it even further-- do we need pet classes at all? They're a class that excells at soloing-- but this is supposed to be a group oriented game. They're also a pain to balance-- either you make them so weak that they're next to useless in groups or so powerful that everyone else hates them... I guess i just never understood the appeal. I completely agree about the Witch Hunters. I've said all along that they should've been a Melee/Pet class with a Warhound.

Hive, you hit the nail on it's head. Those are the reasons why I don't want the High Elves to have pets. Sure we can come up with ideas for how it could work, but was it needed? Like I've said guys, if people can come up with reasonable suggestions for alternative White Lion Melee DPS game mechanics, I'd like to hear 'em. They don't do beserker rage, they're not religiously frenzied, they haven't got much to build on... I love the White Lion lore, but it doesn't give much which could be translated into a substantial game mechanic and skills without a pet.

[Revolutionomni]

Like I've said guys, if people can come up with reasonable suggestions for alternative White Lion Melee DPS game mechanics, I'd like to hear 'em. They don't do beserker rage, they're not religiously frenzied, they haven't got much to build on... I love the White Lion lore, but it doesn't give much which could be translated into a substantial game mechanic and skills without a pet.

The way I imagine the White Lion is much like the Hammer (I checked them out for a while), but rather than knock downs/stuns, I see their effects slowing movements/attacks/casting and can also do DoTs from attacks: "Attack does ??? damage and causes another ?? damage over 15 seconds."

I see them like an Arms built Warrior from WoW with a two-handed axe, lighter armor but good resistances to magic. They inflict heavy damage, give DoTs and impairs their enemies. As for an "escape" ability: I'd give them "Unrelenting Assault: +40% Movement. +5% Damage, with an additional +5% after each attack made. Lasts for 10 seconds." This can be used both as a charge and as a "tactical retreat" ability. ;)

As for a gimmick or a themed mechanic, rather than rage, they gain something like "Prowess": simply, the more impairing attacks they make the more better they'll do.

Lastly, their impairing abilities don't make enemies "bleed", they just impair aspects and capabilities of a "body." I being this up because Warriors in WoW sucked against elementals and skeletons, which they couldn't make bleed :-(.

So, that's how I see them being used: Normally slow with quick and furious attacks, and impairing his enemies as he cuts them down into fertilizer. :twisted:

[Jest]

I think enough justification can be made to make White Lions the HE pet archetype. Mythic just needs to approach the class design differently from the standard cookie-cut "static pet class". I proposed an idea for a new kind of pet class that utilizes a 3-tier combo chain skill system to pull off. I respectfully put it in it's own thread (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18268) as not to hijack anyone elses. The lore, as it pertains to the White Lions is somewhat vague, but to the point. There is plenty of room for creative license. Who says White Lions hate white lions, and thats why they kill them? I view it as a kind of Elf paganism, a worshiping of the white lions. The Elves don their pelts to imbue themselves with power, etc.

You could really expand on this whole idea. I get into it in more detail in my other thread, but I think it's definitely possible to pull off a HE pet archetype. Mythic just needs to do it right, and not just slap a nondescript nuisance-of-a-pet to some Elf and call it a "pet archetype".