Sorcerer - Possibly a Female-Only Class?

[Freax]

I was reading up on some of the WAR lore about magic, and came across this for the Dark Elves
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lores_of_Magic#Dark_Magic

Dark Magic, also known as the Dark Arts, is the lore of the Dark Elves. Dark Magic, is form of magic that is hybrid between High Magic and Chaos Magic. The Witch King Malekith decides which dark elves are allowed to study Dark Magic and which are not, and as the use of magic is restricted to the convent of the sorceresses there are only female dark elf magic users (besides the Witch King himself).

It says, according to the lore, that only female Sorceresses are allowed to use magic for the Dark Elves. Since WAR developers and GW are really intent on sticking to the lore, does this mean that DE might have 2 all female careers? Maybe a balance for Chaos' 2 male only careers?

[Heno]

There's an interview where they said they asked, and there are Male sorcerers.

But! I still think it'll be female only, just because it'd make more sense. Male sorcerers tend to stay low on the radar, least they get thier heads chopped off.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Yes in the current lore there are only female sorceress, well there are male sorcerers but they are illegal by Dark Elf law... long story

However we've heard that Mythic did go to GW and ask if they could use Male Sorcerers and GW said yes, their reason was due to the fact that they're in the older lore.

[Selendor]

They said they got GW's approval to implement male Sorcerers. That doesn't necessarily mean that they will implement them (it seems easier to not implement them and go with the existing lore), or that they'll be implemented as playable characters. For all we know, Games Workshop might have told them "The way you do it is you make a public quest involving the assassination of a male sorcerer NPC".

[Rivers]

I really don't think Mythic would answer a question like "will there be male Sorcerors?" with an answer that only applies to NPCs. I don't think Mythic would have to go out of their way to make male Dark Elf Sorcerors merely for a quest or two.

And for those that suggest scrapping male Sorcerors, I ask this simple question: why? They got the OK from GW for them, so why shouldn't they be implemented? "Balance?" I don't buy the "2 male only classes = 2 female only classes" argument. If they were doing "balance" in terms of sex-restricted classes, the High Elves would be the ones getting two female-only classes, not the Dark Elves.

[Thoden Firehammer]

I really don't think Mythic would answer a question like "will there be male Sorcerors?" with an answer that only applies to NPCs. I don't think Mythic would have to go out of their way to make male Dark Elf Sorcerors merely for a quest or two.

And for those that suggest scrapping male Sorcerors, I ask this simple question: why? They got the OK from GW for them, so why shouldn't they be implemented? "Balance?" I don't buy the "2 male only classes = 2 female only classes" argument. If they were doing "balance" in terms of sex-restricted classes, the High Elves would be the ones getting two female-only classes, not the Dark Elves.


You have no idea how much I agree with this post!

[Kaid]

All gender specific classes do is cause problems imo.

[Rivers]

You have no idea how much I agree with this post!

Thoden? Agreeing with me? *ERROR* *DOES NOT COMPUTE* *ERROR*

:p

[Krulltak]

All gender specific classes do is cause problems imo.



To hell with that. If the lore says it and there is absolutly NO other idea you can come up with, then leave the lore alone.



Now if only Mythic actually knew that female Chaos warriors were part of the lore......................


P.S. Since when does a Savant care about the fluff of a game?;)

[Thoden Firehammer]

Thoden? Agreeing with me? *ERROR* *DOES NOT COMPUTE* *ERROR*

:p


Hey, I only argue with people when they're wrong it's becuase of the almightly TRUTH STICK! comands me to do so *puts on cool shades* :cool:

[Rivers]

P.S. Since when does a Savant care about the fluff of a game?;)

We don't all adhere to the Hivemind. ;) A few of us (me) like to get involved in lore discussion, although I do not in the least consider myself well-versed in the subject.

[Yavvy]

But! I still think it'll be female only, just because it'd make more sense. Male sorcerers tend to stay low on the radar, least they get thier heads chopped off.Sense? What choice did Mythic do because it made sense?

Neither female Dwarfs nor male-only Chosen & Marauders make sense. Sorcerers seem to be on the same level as female Dwarfs to me. They have about as much reason not to be playable, they're both fairly easy to make, and they'll both lead to more choice and players to that race (career). Along with that quote, I think they'll be in.

[Lord Tareq]

Actually, there are male sorcerers in dark elf society. Just that its "officially" outlawed does not mean they do not exist. The Cult of Slaanesh is outlawed as well, yet Morathi is their highpriestess and Malekith knows this. The cult also makes use of male sorcerers (the dark elf Anointed). In addition, in the Malus Darkblade novels one of Malus Darkblade's brothers is a male sorcerer (he gets killed by Malus who flays the skin from his body, but thats not
the point:p)

Personally I think its a shame witch elves are female only. They should design it so that if you choose a male witch elf in the character creation menu it will be called an assassin. It would play exactly the same as a witch elf (its the same class), but male and named assassin. Would make alot of people happy I think :)

[Aqualisk]

Personally I think its a shame witch elves are female only. They should design it so that if you choose a male witch elf in the character creation menu it will be called an assassin. It would play exactly the same as a witch elf (its the same class), but male and named assassin. Would make alot of people happy I think :)

They can put them in the same chain mail bikinis too because Witch Elf uniforms are unisex, right?

[Drakhon]

It would play exactly the same as a witch elf (its the same class), but male and named assassin. Would make alot of people happy I think :)

It would upset at least as many people as it would appease.

As far as male Sorcerers go, it's hard to say. The response to Slayers is "Slayers are in the game", though they are not playable, so when the same is said about male Sorcs, it could also mean the same thing. It's also been quite some time since they got that approval, so even if they got it with the intention of males being playable, their goals may have changed by now.

[Tae]

Personally I think its a shame witch elves are female only. They should design it so that if you choose a male witch elf in the character creation menu it will be called an assassin. It would play exactly the same as a witch elf (its the same class), but male and named assassin. Would make alot of people happy I think :)

Yes, because an Assassin who specialises in 'stealth' (in a form) and subteltly striking at single enemies effectively and efficiently would play exactly like a drug-induced homicidal maniac who charges anyone and everyone she can reach not caring for her own personal safety - just enjoying the raw carnage she is inflicting on others.

Yes, that would make so many people happy. None of whom would have either read anything about Dark Elf lore what so ever or possess any common sense either.

[Krulltak]

Yes, because an Assassin who specialises in 'stealth' (in a form) and subteltly striking at single enemies effectively and efficiently would play exactly like a drug-induced homicidal maniac who charges anyone and everyone she can reach not caring for her own personal safety - just enjoying the raw carnage she is inflicting on others.

Yes, that would make so many people happy. None of whom would have either read anything about Dark Elf lore what so ever or possess any common sense either.


QFTMFT..........................

[Rivers]

It would upset at least as many people as it would appease.

As far as male Sorcerers go, it's hard to say. The response to Slayers is "Slayers are in the game", though they are not playable, so when the same is said about male Sorcs, it could also mean the same thing. It's also been quite some time since they got that approval, so even if they got it with the intention of males being playable, their goals may have changed by now.

Yes, it has been a while since that announcement, but remember that most of what we've seen of the Dark Elves and High Elves is months old (the Witch Elf video blog was taken back in February or March, if I remember correctly). When they said that they got the approval for male Sorcerors, my guess is that they were already working on them.

[Eliphas-WorldBearer]

By Tzeentch's might destruction is gonna have it bad i think when greenskins are all genderless, 2 careers of Chaos are men only and 2 careers of dark elves will be women only...Similar thing happened to LOTRO when dwarves didnt have women as playable due to lore. Some people argue that female dwarves have beards but they arent women in my book...

Hornyteen-"I WONNA PLAY A SMEXY FEMALE CHOSEN111"
Mythic-"Sorry but female Chosen just doesnt fit in our game"
Hornyteen-"OMG THIS GAME SUXXORZ, IM GONNA GO BAK 2 WOW AND PLAY ME FEMALE BELF HUNTA THEN!"
Mythic-...

[Krulltak]

Eliphas. Games Workshop never said it didn't fit the lore. On the bloody contrary, It's PART OF THE LORE. THERE ARE female Chaos Champions.

Female Marauders though, are less likely.

It's Mythic that decided not to put them in because "they didn't have time for it".

Blah! BLAH I SAY!

[Hive]

We don't all adhere to the Hivemind. ;)

OBEY ME!!!















;)

[Tae]

Eliphas. Games Workshop never said it didn't fit the lore. On the bloody contrary, It's PART OF THE LORE. THERE ARE female Chaos Champions.

Female Marauders though, are less likely.

It's Mythic that decided not to put them in because "they didn't have time for it".

Blah! BLAH I SAY!

For Chosen they didn't, however the excuse they gave for Marauders was that it didn't fit in the lore.

Which is bollocks.

[Krulltak]

For Chosen they didn't, however the excuse they gave for Marauders was that it didn't fit in the lore.

Which is bollocks.


According to my own sources, the Marauder civilizations indeed to not allow thier women to fight.

But an Imperial woman can prove her meddle and definatly reach a high rank in the Hordes'.

[Lord Tareq]

Yes, because an Assassin who specialises in 'stealth' (in a form) and subteltly striking at single enemies effectively and efficiently would play exactly like a drug-induced homicidal maniac who charges anyone and everyone she can reach not caring for her own personal safety - just enjoying the raw carnage she is inflicting on others.

Yes, that would make so many people happy. None of whom would have either read anything about Dark Elf lore what so ever or possess any common sense either.

This game =/ a direct copy of warhammer lore, learn to accept that.

In the video they described witch elves as someone picking off stragglers. With the witch elf skills showed (poison on weapons, self-buff potions, escape abilities, strong opener attack) this class could easily have been an assassin or played like one. If you want to play like a frenzied maniac attacking anything in sight then thats your personal choice. Anyway, its not up to me and there will not be an option for a male witchelf(assassin). ps Was it really necessary to indirectly accuse me of not having any common sense and any knowledge of dark elf lore, sjeez.:rolleyes:


To get back on topic: Besides from limitting the amount of classes male dark elf players that do not like to play as a female to only 2 classes, it would be far more interesting for roleplaying purposes to allow male sorcerers to be playable. Would result in for example some interesting roleplaying between a certain black guard and said sorcerer:razz:

[Thoden Firehammer]

This game =/ a direct copy of warhammer lore, learn to accept that.

In the video they described witch elves as someone picking off stragglers. With the witch elf skills showed (poison on weapons, self-buff potions, escape abilities, strong opener attack) this class could easily have been an assassin or played like one. If you want to play like a frenzied maniac attacking anything in sight then thats your personal choice. Anyway, its not up to me and there will not be an option for a male witchelf(assassin). ps Was it really necessary to indirectly accuse me of not having any common sense and any knowledge of dark elf lore, sjeez.:rolleyes:


To get back on topic: Besides from limitting the amount of classes male dark elf players that do not like to play as a female to only 2 classes, it would be far more interesting for roleplaying purposes to allow male sorcerers to be playable. Would result in for example some interesting roleplaying between a certain black guard and said sorcerer:razz:



This game is definitly not a direct copy from the lore, explane to me female Dwarfs...

[Hive]

This game is definitly not a direct copy from the lore, explane to me female Dwarfs...

Well, there was the one female dwarf ranger model.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Well, there was the one female dwarf ranger model.

Yes well the Lore says other wise. :cool:

[Krulltak]

Yes well the Lore says other wise. :cool:


There ARE female Dawi Thoden.

[Lord Tareq]

Does it actually matter female dwarfs will be playable, no one ever plays one anyway:p

And Krulltak is right btw, there are female dwarfs in the warhammer lore.

[Freax]

im going to try to move this thread to the new Sorcerer forum.

[Thoden Firehammer]

There ARE female Dawi Thoden.


I ment in the army.... Dang it Krull you know what I ment!! :(

For that you're in the Dammaz Kron

[Allisandra]

Is it just me or is there more only male classes than only female classes - and is it really fair? lol

[Rivers]

Is it just me or is there more only male classes than only female classes - and is it really fair? lol

If they were trying to be "fair" with sex-restricted classes, they would've given Order two female-only classes, not Destruction two more sex-restricted classes.

Witch Elves being female-only is more than acceptable because there are no male Witch Elves, period, whereas with Sorcerors, males do exist, albeit as renegades.

[Xurré]

If they were trying to be "fair" with sex-restricted classes, they would've given Order two female-only classes, not Destruction two more sex-restricted classes.
I'm not sure how "battle of the sexes" is more "fair"... Order would trample over Destruction each and every time. :p


- Xurré

[Rivers]

I'm not sure how "battle of the sexes" is more "fair"... Order would trample over Destruction each and every time. :p


- Xurré

It's the issue of realm balance. If Mythic was intending to "balance out" the sex-restricted classes, they would do so while splitting the restricted classes between Order and Destruction.

Let's say, for example, Mythic plans on making 4 total sex-restricted classes. In order to maintain the right balance, you'd give 2 of these classes to Order and 2 to Destruction. Just like for the sake of class balance (Order isn't getting more support classes than Destruction, or Destruction more melee DPS classes), they would do this if they would follow this scenario if they were intending to balance the sex-restricted classes.

However, we already see that's not the case. Destruction has, technically, 7 out of 12 sex-restricted classes, all of which are restricted either due to lore (Greenskins, Witch Elves) or due to them not feeling they could do the missing sex justice (Chosen, Marauder). Order, on the other hand, has no sex-restrictions what-so-ever (yet).

My point is this: if Mythic was planning on "balancing" the male-restricted classes to female-restricted classes (2 male and 2 female), they would've put 2 sex-restricted classes on Order and 2 on Destruction. There's no reasoning behind scrapping male Sorcerors considering they've already been approved.

Anyway, that was probably more drawn-out than I needed to be, but the "2 male = 2 female" arguments rather annoy me.

[Freax]

Why are you so hung up on the sex-class balance thing? I didnt even think much about it at first, just put it in as an observation. Your turning it into an argument yourself. Who cares if they considered that a factor or not, the argument is lore says only female Sorceress' can legally wield magic in Dark Elf society, and if Mythic and GW are planning on sticking to it with the player class or not.

[Rivers]

Why are you so hung up on the sex-class balance thing? I didnt even think much about it at first, just put it in as an observation. Your turning it into an argument yourself. Who cares if they considered that a factor or not, the argument is lore says only female Sorceress' can legally wield magic in Dark Elf society, and if Mythic and GW are planning on sticking to it with the player class or not.

It's been discussed before and if I'm appearing too fervent about it, I apologize. But I feel that WAR is an MMO first, Warhammer world second. I'm merely trying to bring the gameplay aspect into the equation.

[venom6]

ok, say the DE got only 1 female class, why does it matter? You will still be able to make a man/woman sorcerer if you wanted to. It really doesn't matter if everyone can be whatever they wanted

[Xurré]

I don’t really believe that there’s any kind of ‘balance’ going on with the genders. And I don’t think that the point either.

The point is, I think, whether it would make sense to have players play male Sorcerers. And I must say that I’m a bit of two minds there.

On the one hand I can definitely understand the desire to be able to play both genders, I understand the increased options. I, too, am not happy with being unable to play a female Chaos Chosen or female Chaos Marauder (and glad that I can play a female dwarf or a female Warrior Priest).

On the other hand though, it seems to me that, lore-wise, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to allow male Sorcerers. True, in the lore the definitely do exist and if they’re included for players then it’s probably built on that point. But in the lore they also have to remain hidden and secret, making certain that most people don’t know that they’re Sorcerers. But that would be near impossible to do in the game, particularly since it wouldn’t surprise me at all if, at high level, we’ll be doing tasks for Malekith directly (I recall reading something about gaining faction with your race’s leader). The higher level you’d get the less sense it’d make that the other dark elves (particularly Malekith and his Black Guard) would let you run around freely.

Of course, it’s also war and do-or-die time. I can see Malekith suspending his law as a “we need all the firepower we can get”. Or maybe Mythic’ll just ignore the whole law and base it more on a version of the lore where it didn’t exist yet (in 4th edition there was no rule against male Sorcerers and, in fact, the only miniatures you could get at the time were for male Sorcerers; I’m sure I’ve got one or two stored in a box somewhere).

So I’m unsure on this point. I think I wouldn’t mind either way, but with a slight preference to female Sorceresses only.

But I don’t really buy the whole “we need/don’t need gender restrictions because of balance” argument.


- Xurré

[Rivers]

But I don’t really buy the whole “we need/don’t need gender restrictions because of balance” argument.

Same here. That's the point I've been trying (but apparently failing) to make: there is no "balance" in the sex-restricted classes so there is no particular need for another female-only class. If anything, it'd only be "needed" due to the lore.

[Yavvy]

On the other hand though, it seems to me that, lore-wise, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to allow male Sorcerers. True, in the lore the definitely do exist and if they’re included for players then it’s probably built on that point. But in the lore they also have to remain hidden and secret, making certain that most people don’t know that they’re Sorcerers. But that would be near impossible to do in the game, particularly since it wouldn’t surprise me at all if, at high level, we’ll be doing tasks for Malekith directly (I recall reading something about gaining faction with your race’s leader). The higher level you’d get the less sense it’d make that the other dark elves (particularly Malekith and his Black Guard) would let you run around freely.Female Dwarfs aren't accepted in the army, but in WAR they are. Male Sorcerors aren't accepted in DE society, but in WAR they could be.

A DE would kill the Sorceror, a Dwarf would carry the woman back to the hold. Basically the same thing, when we're playing a game about war.

The lore reasons are pretty equal and Sorcerers don't have any artistic problems, so I think they're in.

[Xurré]

Female Dwarfs aren't accepted in the army, but in WAR they are. Male Sorcerors aren't accepted in DE society, but in WAR they could be.

A DE would kill the Sorceror, a Dwarf would carry the woman back to the hold. Basically the same thing, when we're playing a game about war.

The lore reasons are pretty equal and Sorcerers don't have any artistic problems, so I think they're in.
I'll be the first to admit I'm not that familiar with dwarf lore, but I'm not sure if it's that similar at all.

As I understand it dwarfs want to protect their women, keep them safe. It's not that much of a stretch however to think that with the situation the way it is there is no more safe, and particularly the more powerful the dwarf women become the more useful it is for them to be in the war (and the better they are at protecting themselves).

With male Sorcerers however the problem isn't so much at low-level, but at high level since Malekith doesn't want any Sorcerers to exist since he believes one of them will kill him. He's not at all going to be happy to see Sorcerers rise in power and isn't likely to ask for their aid. In fact, I'd imagine he'd do everything possible to get rid of them. (Though this could be built into the quests to begin with. ;))

That said though, I don't have that much of a problem with Sorcerers, probably because I'm more used to an older dark elf lore where there was no such problem. So for me it'd just be returning to that time.

Maybe all I'm saying is that I'd be happy either way as I can see it both ways on this. It just seems a bit of a shame to lose that little tidbit of lore.


- Xurré

[Yavvy]

I'll be the first to admit I'm not that familiar with dwarf lore, but I'm not sure if it's that similar at all.

As I understand it dwarfs want to protect their women, keep them safe. It's not that much of a stretch however to think that with the situation the way it is there is no more safe, and particularly the more powerful the dwarf women become the more useful it is for them to be in the war (and the better they are at protecting themselves).Ask Thoden :rolleyes:

If they were to follow the lore, female Dwarfs would stay in the capital, taking care of most civilian things, and only fight if the capital was attacked. Female Dwarfs make about as much sense as hippies in the army. Well, maybe a little more.

But yeah, I guess thats the explanation Mythic is going with (or something like it).

With male Sorcerers however the problem isn't so much at low-level, but at high level since Malekith doesn't want any Sorcerers to exist since he believes one of them will kill him. He's not at all going to be happy to see Sorcerers rise in power and isn't likely to ask for their aid. In fact, I'd imagine he'd do everything possible to get rid of them.Malekith could be so powerful, that even a top rank Sorcerer isn't a threat to him. Or Morathi tricked him in some way.

[Aqualisk]

With male Sorcerers however the problem isn't so much at low-level, but at high level since Malekith doesn't want any Sorcerers to exist since he believes one of them will kill him. He's not at all going to be happy to see Sorcerers rise in power and isn't likely to ask for their aid. In fact, I'd imagine he'd do everything possible to get rid of them. (Though this could be built into the quests to begin with. ;))

That said though, I don't have that much of a problem with Sorcerers, probably because I'm more used to an older dark elf lore where there was no such problem. So for me it'd just be returning to that time.

Maybe all I'm saying is that I'd be happy either way as I can see it both ways on this. It just seems a bit of a shame to lose that little tidbit of lore.


- Xurré

Given the fact that Malekith is now training Black Guards and sending them off on an invasion force, I don't think it's much of a stretch that he'd allow male sorcerers to be trained with the intent of sending them far away where they might be useful and still manage to get themselves killed off.

[Xurré]

Malekith could be so powerful, that even a top rank Sorcerer isn't a threat to him.
By that logic though he wouldn't have to banish male Sorcerers to begin with.


Given the fact that Malekith is now training Black Guards and sending them off on an invasion force, I don't think it's much of a stretch that he'd allow male sorcerers to be trained with the intent of sending them far away where they might be useful and still manage to get themselves killed off.
True that.


<contemplates the existence of hippies in the army>


- Xurré

[Uraithen]

I happen to have a fourth edition Male Dark Elf Sorcerer model.

[Tiervexx]

By that logic though he wouldn't have to banish male Sorcerers to begin with.

Yes! Malekith, like any smart tyrant wants to give the image of an invincible leader but he knows good and well that he is mortal even if he has a gigantic ego.

...errr switch that "if" to "though"

I don't have much of a problem with male sorcerers either... but I better have the option of making a REALLY cute one.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Yes! Malekith, like any smart tyrant wants to give the image of an invincible leader but he knows good and well that he is mortal even if he has a gigantic ego.

...errr switch that "if" to "though"

I don't have much of a problem with male sorcerers either... but I better have the option of making a REALLY cute one.


/facepalm

Well I hope they add Male Sorcerers, it would probably be the only elf class I would consider playing.

I would play the Magus...but the disk thing I really did not like.

However I do like the Dark Magic using theam of these type of classes, and a WAR healer would be an interesting thing to try out

[Gemini]

Given the fact that Malekith is now training Black Guards and sending them off on an invasion force, I don't think it's much of a stretch that he'd allow male sorcerers to be trained with the intent of sending them far away where they might be useful and still manage to get themselves killed off.

The problem is, the Fist of Malekith is the Dark Elf capital city for WAR, and one can assume that Malekith will be on his personal Black Ark, yes? So not really all that far away...

That being asid, I agree it could be explained any numbers of ways and would be no more of a stretch than female dwarfs and female warrior priests. Whichever way Mythic decides to go with it, they have my blessing(as if they care).

[Syr]

does this mean that DE might have 2 all female careers? Maybe a balance for Chaos' 2 male only careers?

that wouldn't be balance since they're both destruction :p I don't think either of the last 2 NE classes will be gender restricted, it would be way too many on destruction.

Also there's text somewhere relating to WAR hinting at male sorcerers

[Bargad]

I wouldn't be keen on it, but if GW approves it, It sounds good.

They were Outlawed by Malekith to show his Strength. In Dark Elf culture, you show Weakness infront of an Enemy, you die.

[Gemini]

Quite the opposite, Malekith outlawed them because he believes one will kill him, due to a prophecy that may or may not even be about him. How is that showing his strength? To me thats despertly trying to hide a weakness.

[Bargad]

It's hard to explain. It's pretty much saying that you are above Prophecies and The Future, that you moult it through your will and noone else's.

[Stein]

In addition, in the Malus Darkblade novels one of Malus Darkblade's brothers is a male sorcerer (he gets killed by Malus who flays the skin from his body, but thats not
the point:p)

Thank you lord Tareq for ruining a small part of the story for me:mad:. I had just finished the 2nd book.

[Shifte]

According to my own sources, the Marauder civilizations indeed to not allow thier women to fight.




*Pops in*

Norse women fight, and do, but they tend to defend while males attack :) Which goes against the "Chaos Invasion" idea.

[Tiervexx]

It's hard to explain. It's pretty much saying that you are above Prophecies and The Future, that you moult it through your will and noone else's.

Defiantly disagree!

Showing his strength would be to keep them legal...daring one to try it. Out lawing it is far and away the cowardly way.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Defiantly disagree!

Showing his strength would be to keep them legal...daring one to try it. Out lawing it is far and away the cowardly way.

Correction,.. it wont keep the Dark Elves "Legal" it will make them more carefull so they don't get cought :cool:

[Tiervexx]

Correction,.. it wont keep the Dark Elves "Legal" it will make them more carefull so they don't get cought :cool:

That's the "I meant to do that!" justification :p

Putting all of his law enforcement against potential rivals is just a little hard to swallow as the manly thing to do...

And the more I think of it the more I wonder exactly how Mythic will get around this. I can think of some ways but I wana see what they do already.

[Thoden Firehammer]

That's the "I meant to do that!" justification :p

Putting all of his law enforcement against potential rivals is just a little hard to swallow as the manly thing to do...

And the more I think of it the more I wonder exactly how Mythic will get around this. I can think of some ways but I wana see what they do already.


All they have to do is just go with older lore

[Thrakkesh]

Morathi convinced Malekith that having no male sorcerers was silly and the prophecy was wrong or else read wrong because there is no way anyone could truly oppose Malekith. Whom he obeys because he's been dumb enough to obey her so far.

Bam, done!

[StarSlinger]

Well, Lore aside, I think that the Sorceress will end up being female only.

Why? Well, let’s think of this from a meta-game perspective:

For various reasons, Mythic decided the give Destruction two male-only classes. This decision provoked a LOT of controversy, again for various reasons.

Gender DOES play a major part in what people pick to play, as much as we would like to think otherwise, especially for the “gaming masses.”

Mythic needs a way to prevent the perception of “OMG Destruction is the sexist side!” from spreading, potentially causing realm population issues, and generally giving a bad image to the game.

Now keep in mind that public perspective is often created and maintained by using simple concepts, “a mob is only as smart as its dumbest member” and all that.

The easiest way to counter the “basic” gender complaints is to “balance” out the single-gender choices on Destruction (Yes, they could also add single-gender classes on the Order side, however, that would be perceived as retroactive “nerfing” not a “grand plan”).

Thus, you give destruction four single-gender professions, two female, two male.

Then you can easily counter the “OMG Mythic! Your game/developers are sexist because of Destruction classes!”

With

“No, everything is balanced, just unusually so in order to fit with the WH Lore. There are two male only classes in Chaos, and two female-only classes in the Dark Elves. This reflects the individual cultures of the species as per the Warhammer IP.”

“WTF!!! What about GREENSKINS!!!!”

“They are space mushrooms… gender neutral.”

Thus, Mythic is covered PR-wise:)

[Rivers]

*snip*

That's not balance in the least. "Balance" would be giving Order three sex-restricted classes. Yes, it would be nerfing, but only because if Destruction is given yet another sex-restricted class, it will be completely gimped in terms of aesthetic choices, whereas Order will not be restricted by sex at all.

Let's take a look at the majority of the people who will be playing WAR: the random people who go "oooh, shiny" at the box at Wal-Mart. When they boot up the game and look at the amount of sex-restricted classes on Destruction, they won't say "oh, there are more male-restricted classes than female. Destruction is sexist! I'm playing Order!" No, what they'll say is "oh, there are more choices and variety on Order. I'm playing Order!"

Gender DOES play a major part in what people pick to play, as much as we would like to think otherwise, especially for the “gaming masses.”
Exactly. So... why are we restricting Destruction so much? :confused:

I don't think sexism is a huge concern for the majority of the playerbase; a huge concern is the amount of choices.

PS: Greenskins may be asexual, but to any person who knows nothing about WAR, they will look male (they are EXTREMELY masculine).

[Jarlor klenistan]

personally i think that destruction will represent the WOW version of having older players in it and the Order will have the young kids.

and besides what young sorcerer would be able to go toe to toe with Malekith, there might be a hidden cult in DE society like there is with chaos and the empire. who knows?

[Thoden Firehammer]

Well, Lore aside, I think that the Sorceress will end up being female only.

Why? Well, let’s think of this from a meta-game perspective:

For various reasons, Mythic decided the give Destruction two male-only classes. This decision provoked a LOT of controversy, again for various reasons.

Gender DOES play a major part in what people pick to play, as much as we would like to think otherwise, especially for the “gaming masses.”

Mythic needs a way to prevent the perception of “OMG Destruction is the sexist side!” from spreading, potentially causing realm population issues, and generally giving a bad image to the game.

Now keep in mind that public perspective is often created and maintained by using simple concepts, “a mob is only as smart as its dumbest member” and all that.

The easiest way to counter the “basic” gender complaints is to “balance” out the single-gender choices on Destruction (Yes, they could also add single-gender classes on the Order side, however, that would be perceived as retroactive “nerfing” not a “grand plan”).

Thus, you give destruction four single-gender professions, two female, two male.

Then you can easily counter the “OMG Mythic! Your game/developers are sexist because of Destruction classes!”

With

“No, everything is balanced, just unusually so in order to fit with the WH Lore. There are two male only classes in Chaos, and two female-only classes in the Dark Elves. This reflects the individual cultures of the species as per the Warhammer IP.”

“WTF!!! What about GREENSKINS!!!!”

“They are space mushrooms… gender neutral.”

Thus, Mythic is covered PR-wise:)



Actualy lore wise, thoes chaos classes should allow for both male and female...

Now his is yet another "Well the made male only fighters, why not make female only classes on the same faction"

I never got this logic, and I safly never will, why would you want to further decrease the number of players that are looking forward to playing Destruction, but sadly can't do to EVEN more gender restrictions, when ironicaly the other faction has no gender restrictions what so ever ((when lore wise they need em))

[Gemini]

Now his is yet another "Well the made male only fighters, why not make female only classes on the same faction"

I never got this logic, and I safly never will, why would you want to further decrease the number of players that are looking forward to playing Destruction, but sadly can't do to EVEN more gender restrictions, when ironicaly the other faction has no gender restrictions what so ever ((when lore wise they need em))

Agreed, balance would be giving Order sex restricted careers, not giving Destruction more of them. Witch Elves jsut makes sense, and I'm not a huge fan of the Marauder/Chosen thing, but I don't see it as a big deal for myself.


I'm betting Sorcs will be male and female because of that interview a while back. I know just because GW approved it dosn't mean Mythic has to do it, but I just have a feeling there will be male Sorcs. But maybe not, who knows? Time will tell.

[Lord Tareq]

Thank you lord Tareq for ruining a small part of the story for me:mad:. I had just finished the 2nd book.

Your welcome.:rolleyes: This "spoiler" is also in the dark elf armybook btw.

[StarSlinger]

Actualy lore wise, thoes chaos classes should allow for both male and female...


Hence why I started my post with the phrase "lore aside" meaning "ignoring lore."


Now his is yet another "Well the made male only fighters, why not make female only classes on the same faction"

I never got this logic, and I safly never will, why would you want to further decrease the number of players that are looking forward to playing Destruction, but sadly can't do to EVEN more gender restrictions, when ironicaly the other faction has no gender restrictions what so ever ((when lore wise they need em))

Having two male and two female restricted classes on one side IS a form of balance, it is just a matter of perspective. People just refuse to acknowledge it so as to bolster their argument against it.

The only people that will be turned off from playing Destruction purely on the gender issue will be those that, for whatever reason, refuse to play a particular gender. To me, that is a position akin to refusing to play a Greenskin because you hate the color green. Ultimately, I think there will be little impact on the game because of it.

However, I think that there is a strong logical reason to assume that the Sorceress will be a female-only class, even without considering lore.

[Enkmar]

Mythic decided the give Destruction two male-only classes.

Six if you count the greenskins. I know they're genderless, but at a glance, they sure look male.

[Thoden Firehammer]

Having two male and two female restricted classes on one side IS a form of balance, it is just a matter of perspective. People just refuse to acknowledge it so as to bolster their argument against it.

The only people that will be turned off from playing Destruction purely on the gender issue will be those that, for whatever reason, refuse to play a particular gender. To me, that is a position akin to refusing to play a Greenskin because you hate the color green. Ultimately, I think there will be little impact on the game because of it.

However, I think that there is a strong logical reason to assume that the Sorceress will be a female-only class, even without considering lore.


StarSlinger, this is a weak argument and you know it, it only promote further imbalance, no matter how you put it, in the grand scheme of things, the game shall be even more unbalanced and thus it is a bad idea.

Many people play characters that they can relate to, and as such will no play a class that is geneder restricted to their opposite gender, I sudjest you quit making assumptions.

I'll even quote you

Gender DOES play a major part in what people pick to play

Now I don't know about you, but this seems to be contradicting to your last post...

[Zihark]

Having two male and two female restricted classes on one side IS a form of balance, it is just a matter of perspective. People just refuse to acknowledge it so as to bolster their argument against it.

The only people that will be turned off from playing Destruction purely on the gender issue will be those that, for whatever reason, refuse to play a particular gender. To me, that is a position akin to refusing to play a Greenskin because you hate the color green. Ultimately, I think there will be little impact on the game because of it.

However, I think that there is a strong logical reason to assume that the Sorceress will be a female-only class, even without considering lore.

The only balance is from a political point of view meaning "well, we don't want to be viewed as sexists by the ladies, so if we counter two male only classes with two females, there's nothing to complain about as both sexes got the same amount of restriction, not counting greenskins of course".

There's no game balance added to this, actually, it makes destruction miss out 1 more gender in a class, meaning less people who wanna be a elf male caster is going to play dark elves due not able to choose what they want, thus meaning less people on destruction.

Im sure noone would mind (expect a few lore addicts) if they actually got male casters. not even the females will care to be honest, since im sure most of them does not feel adding one more gender reistricted class won't solve the chaos gender restriction. In the end, it would only be a sort of "revenge" against the people wanting to be a elf male caster and play destruction beacuse they were unable to play their precious chaos melee dps/tank

[Syr]

Having two male and two female restricted classes on one side IS a form of balance, it is just a matter of perspective. People just refuse to acknowledge it so as to bolster their argument against it.

Balance is measured in game mechanics and numbers, not political correctness agendas. The most important balance in this case is populations on either side. Adding more restrictions onto one side is throwing fire on fire. Balance problems in the case of restrictions isn't male vs female, it's reduced numbers by restricting a class to one gender.. it doesn't matter which gender is restricted, and restricting more classes on the same side doesn't balance that.

[zenarion]

Sorceress? Female only? Well why not. Fits the game, and is something new.
Look at it this way: from what i have heard (no stats, just asked people, few of them) girls in MMOs tend to play support roles. Sorceress with flowing long robes is just that thing that will draw sweet little girls to play as Dark Elves. As for Witch Elves, those WILL be played by 13-year-old boys. I prophecise that.

[Gemini]

Sorceress? Female only? Well why not. Fits the game, and is something new.
Look at it this way: from what i have heard (no stats, just asked people, few of them) girls in MMOs tend to play support roles. Sorceress with flowing long robes is just that thing that will draw sweet little girls to play as Dark Elves. As for Witch Elves, those WILL be played by 13-year-old boys. I prophecise that.

How is it new? And actually many woman on this forum have spoken out and said that they will be playing a WE.

[Zihark]

Sorceress? Female only? Well why not. Fits the game, and is something new.
Look at it this way: from what i have heard (no stats, just asked people, few of them) girls in MMOs tend to play support roles. Sorceress with flowing long robes is just that thing that will draw sweet little girls to play as Dark Elves. As for Witch Elves, those WILL be played by 13-year-old boys. I prophecise that.

So, you say less girls will play sorceress if males are allowed? I see your logic

[Thoden Firehammer]

So, you say less girls will play sorceress if males are allowed? I see your logic


I hope you're being sarcrastic because I don't

[Gemini]

If that wasn't sarcasm, Thoden, I'll roll a Dwarfen Engineer(my least favorite class) before anything else. Scout's Honor.

On a side note, since I havn't been a boy scout since like, 3rd grade, and I was actually just a cub-scout, can I still really say "Scout's Honor"?

[Yavvy]

Having two male and two female restricted classes on one side IS a form of balance, it is just a matter of perspective. People just refuse to acknowledge it so as to bolster their argument against it.Two wrongs doesn't make a right - it just worsens the problem. Say it was a wrestling match, and one fighter was one-armed. To balance the match, you cut off his other arm as well.

See how little sense it makes?

Not to mention that "balancing" Chosen (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/112006_cart_01.jpg) and Marauder (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/WAR_Marauder_T4.jpg) vs Witch Elf (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/behindTheScenes/theMakingOf/images/WH_Movie_2) and Sorceress (http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/miniature-gallery/2/) won't help for sex equality. (other than pure numbers, but if so all DE and the Magus and Zealot should be female-only to account for the Orcs of the Bloody Sun Boyz)

[Kharlene]

Two wrongs doesn't make a right - it just worsens the problem. Say it was a wrestling match, and one fighter was one-armed. To balance the match, you cut off his other arm as well.

See how little sense it makes?

Not to mention that "balancing" Chosen (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/112006_cart_01.jpg) and Marauder (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/WAR_Marauder_T4.jpg) vs Witch Elf (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/behindTheScenes/theMakingOf/images/WH_Movie_2) and Sorceress (http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/miniature-gallery/2/) won't help for sex equality. (other than pure numbers, but if so all DE and the Magus and Zealot should be female-only to account for the Orcs of the Bloody Sun Boyz)

Hehe... Actually the analogy would be more like having 12 guys with both arms vs. another 12 guys but 2 of them have no left arm but to balance it out 2 others of that same group have no right arm :mrgreen:

But you're right, it makes no sense - I said it as a joke in another thread, but I'm surprised to see people actually push that opinion seriously :roll:

[Zihark]

I hope you're being sarcrastic because I don't

It kinda kills the fun of sarcasm if you tell if you are or not, go figure :p

[Dastion]

I honestly think that if Mythic COULD throw in female Orcs and Goblins they would, simply because it was make the Greenskin race more desireable.. but they have an IP to follow and Orcs and Goblins don't have a female race. The entire race is of a masculine gender because of their warlike nature, but they are in fact unisex.. since they produce through some wierd fungal growth or something. So they aren't "technically" gender specific classes. Throwing in goblins was their way of trying to make the race more diverse.

That being said, if sorcerer is introduced, it'll more than likely be male and female. They won't want to have two female only classes on one side. They did the gender specific thing in DAOC and found that while it was interesting (to female players mainly), many people, like myself, who can't see themselves playing a female character disliked the idea that they couldn't really enjoy the new class. (No, it's nothing sexist. I just see my character as my representation in the game world and prefer to be male).

[Thoden Firehammer]

I honestly think that if Mythic COULD throw in female Orcs and Goblins they would, simply because it was make the Greenskin race more desireable.. but they have an IP to follow and Orcs and Goblins don't have a female race. The entire race is of a masculine gender because of their warlike nature, but they are in fact unisex.. since they produce through some wierd fungal growth or something. So they aren't "technically" gender specific classes. Throwing in goblins was their way of trying to make the race more diverse.

That being said, if sorcerer is introduced, it'll more than likely be male and female. They won't want to have two female only classes on one side. They did the gender specific thing in DAOC and found that while it was interesting (to female players mainly), many people, like myself, who can't see themselves playing a female character disliked the idea that they couldn't really enjoy the new class. (No, it's nothing sexist. I just see my character as my representation in the game world and prefer to be male).


lol lets just go with P for the moment then, IP says Dwarfs don't let their women out of holds, IP says there can't be Female warrior priests, IP says there can be female chosen and marauder, but heh i'm good with it, just as long as there's no female orcs, or male orcs for that matter :P

[Dastion]

lol, I dont know everything about the warhammer universe. I was just pointing out that complaining about the greenskins as being a male only class was silly since female versions don't even exist. Not that female Orcs are very widespread even in games that they are available, WoW for example. And nearly all of those are males playing them anyhow.

I have no idea why they are so adamant against Female Chosen, I mean, it's a tank class... let it be more widely accessable based on tastes since they do exist. Now, female mauraders, that'll be interesting... I dare not even venture where females with tentacles will lead for some of the RP freaks :)

[Chielz0r]

I never got why there are no female Marauders.. Chosen I can understand abit.. They are just too frikin' big. Well I guess there could be female Chosen if they would design some bigass man on steroids, but that wouldn't be very appealing now would it?

Marauders though I can easily imagine being female, but I guess it has something to do with the T rating.


on-topic: In the Darkblade comics/books the Black Ark Naggor has male Sorcerers.

[Gemini]

I never got why there are no female Marauders.. Chosen I can understand abit.. They are just too frikin' big. Well I guess there could be female Chosen if they would design some bigass man on steroids, but that wouldn't be very appealing now would it?

Marauders though I can easily imagine being female, but I guess it has something to do with the T rating.


on-topic: In the Darkblade comics/books the Black Ark Naggor has male Sorcerers.

The Marauder and Chosen reasons go hand-in-hand, since they use the same silhouette.

[Thrakkesh]

on-topic: In the Darkblade comics/books the Black Ark Naggor has a male Sorcerer.

Fixed for technicalities sake. Some would argue his extremely strange circumstances would make him exempt from the rules. (By the way, he's a demon summoner, so hardly a priest. The very definition of Sorcery in the Warhammer world is daemon magic, as per something I read--Liber Chaotica maybe? Could have been Inquisition, Iono.)

[Chielz0r]

Deamon summoner, priest? what are you talking about? I'm talking about witch lord Bale and male sorcerers being accepted in Naggor.

[Thrakkesh]

Deamon summoner, priest? what are you talking about? I'm talking about witch lord Bale and male sorcerers being accepted in Naggor.

Oh, my bad, thought you were talking about Urial.

[Barundin162]

The Male and Female only debate is founded more in Lore than anytihng else.

Lorewise there is no Female (or Male) Orcs, they are Nuetral.

Lorewise Dark Elves are a extremely structered society with Male and Females having clear cut rules against other classes (no male witch elfs, male sorcerers being Killed on Sight) and such

Lorewise Humanity, HE, and Dwarfs are goverend more by tradition that males adn females have thier roles, not really by law such is in DE.

And again we know there is no female Chosen cause Mythic got Lazy, no Female Maurders makes a little more sense but not much (as most females in the Norse society are slaves taken in raids by they choas raiders) Still you would have your fair share of women maurders...

[Dracallo]

Not to mention that "balancing" Chosen (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/112006_cart_01.jpg) and Marauder (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/WAR_Marauder_T4.jpg) vs Witch Elf (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/behindTheScenes/theMakingOf/images/WH_Movie_2) and Sorceress (http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/miniature-gallery/2/) won't help for sex equality. (other than pure numbers, but if so all DE and the Magus and Zealot should be female-only to account for the Orcs of the Bloody Sun Boyz)

Orcs/goblins are not men so you are wrong.

[Ezmi]

Sorceress? Female only? Well why not. Fits the game, and is something new.
Look at it this way: from what i have heard (no stats, just asked people, few of them) girls in MMOs tend to play support roles. Sorceress with flowing long robes is just that thing that will draw sweet little girls to play as Dark Elves. As for Witch Elves, those WILL be played by 13-year-old boys. I prophecise that.


I disagree that the Witch Elves will be only played by the 13 year old boys. From what I have read so far, if they are to live very long it will be by skill. In WoW rogues had so many skills to save there annoying asses, stuns and vanish etc... and that damn sap. (as a priest I spent many hours sapped in BG's) It was easy for any skill level to play and get by. I don't think the WE will be same. They may make a toon and play it for a bit but I doubt many unskilled players will stick with it.

I was not happy with the choice not to make female Chosen, as a female gamer I like to have female avatars when I can. I think if they do have males Sorcerers they should have to avoid certain guards in DE cities or they could be killed. It works for lore and it would be funny to watch afk players get killed.

Ezmi

[twinoceans]

the reason why the witch king prohibited male practice of sorcery is because of the withlords of Naggor trying for their land's independence. since then, malekith prohibited that male cannot do magic. so he's the only male sorcerer in the whole land. however, in Darkblade series, balneth bale is the current witch lord and more likely know magic. this really is confusing.

[Gemini]

the reason why the witch king prohibited male practice of sorcery is because of the withlords of Naggor trying for their land's independence. since then, malekith prohibited that male cannot do magic. so he's the only male sorcerer in the whole land. however, in Darkblade series, balneth bale is the current witch lord and more likely know magic. this really is confusing.

I dunno about these "withlords", whatever they are, but I've read many times on these forums that Malekith was told of a prophecy where a mighty Dark Elf ruler would be killed by a male sorcorer, or something along those lines. Being the egotistical he is, he beleives this prophecy to be about him, and has thus outlawed male practioners of magic. If I am wrong, or it connects to what you are saying, please forgive my ignorance and fill me in, because now I'm confused.

[twinoceans]

I dunno about these "withlords", whatever they are, but I've read many times on these forums that Malekith was told of a prophecy where a mighty Dark Elf ruler would be killed by a male sorcorer, or something along those lines. Being the egotistical he is, he beleives this prophecy to be about him, and has thus outlawed male practioners of magic. If I am wrong, or it connects to what you are saying, please forgive my ignorance and fill me in, because now I'm confused.

well, one thing about warhammer fantasy is that unlike middle earth, its not made up entirely by one person, but many many minds. it has the advantage of being richer in images and imaginations but then the drawback is that its sometimes confusing and unrealible when it come to the historical details, since many source can contradict each other. i encounter this many times, especially when it comes to the warhammer theology. my source for this in particular is from lexicanum, the warhammer unofficial encyclopedia. but you might be right and i might be wrong. who knows.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

The prophecy told him that a mighty male sorcerer would take him down, so Malekith prohibited male sorcerer's
Malekith is so paranoid & afraid, they are made KOS for the entire army.

[Xurré]

‘And lo, he shall rule with a dark hand and his shadow shall touch upon every land. Steel will be his skin and fire will be his blood, in hatred will he conquer all before him. No blade forged of Man, Dwarf or Elf shall endure him fear. Though will it come to pass that the firstborn son of noble blood shall rise to power. The child will be learned in the darkest arts and he will raise an army of terrible beasts. Thus will the Dark King fall, slain by neither blade nor arrow but by a sorcerous power of darkest magic and so shall his body be consumed in the flames and for all eternity burn.’

The Prophecy of Demise


As Aenarion drew the Blade of Khaine, Caledor was gifted with a prophecy which spoke of the tragedy that would befall Elvenkind. Part of the prophecy talks of a great warrior cast from his home by a Sorcerer and Malekith believes it is he to whom the prophecy refers. As a result Sorcerers are regarded with disdain, fear and superstition by most Dark Elves, and they cannot be admitted to the Convent. There are those in Naggaroth, however, who will employ such magic users to avoid owing a debt to the High Sorceresses of the Convent.
It doesn’t get more official than that.

Though I must say, writing it down like that it doesn’t really sound that... strict. Still doesn’t make sense for Malekith to give out quests and reward male Sorcerers, or for male Sorcerers to play happily next to Black Guards, but the text pretty much just says “they can’t be part of the Convent”.

Anyway, thought I’d quote that to ensure we’re all on the same page (page 16 that is ;)).


- Xurré

[Gemini]

Yeah, thet prophecy never mentions Malekith by name at all, though I suppose the steel in skin is a good hint. But it also dosn't say it will even be an elf to take him out, there are plenty of non-elf nobles. Couldn't the "darkest arts" refer to Chaos-related stuff instead of Dhar? First son of noble human blood gets tainted by chaos at a young age, becomes a very powerful sorcorer and summons chaos spawns or something to take out Malekith? Or even somehow controlling a herd of beastmen, since it specifically mentions beasts. I'm not trying to say that is what the prophecy says, but is that at all possible?

But either way, it sure does sound like a good reason for Malekith to not allow any sorcorers on his arks for this invasion, since Malekith is so sure he knows exactly what the prophecy means.

[Emeraldw99]

Yeah, thet prophecy never mentions Malekith by name at all, though I suppose the steel in skin is a good hint. But it also dosn't say it will even be an elf to take him out, there are plenty of non-elf nobles. Couldn't the "darkest arts" refer to Chaos-related stuff instead of Dhar? First son of noble human blood gets tainted by chaos at a young age, becomes a very powerful sorcorer and summons chaos spawns or something to take out Malekith? Or even somehow controlling a herd of beastmen, since it specifically mentions beasts. I'm not trying to say that is what the prophecy says, but is that at all possible?

But either way, it sure does sound like a good reason for Malekith to not allow any sorcorers on his arks for this invasion, since Malekith is so sure he knows exactly what the prophecy means.

Perfect prophecy, can't make sense of it and it has many interpretations! :D

Also each house it launching an invasion and if there is no Kill on sight order then there isn't a reason to not use male sorcerers. Which is the point, if there isn't a true reason not to allow it, then it becomes plausible and thus ok to us in a game. Which is the point.

[Gemini]

Perfect prophecy, can't make sense of it and it has many interpretations! :D

Also each house it launching an invasion and if there is no Kill on sight order then there isn't a reason to not use male sorcerers. Which is the point, if there isn't a true reason not to allow it, then it becomes plausible and thus ok to us in a game. Which is the point.

True we are from house Ulthorion, but the Fist of Malekith is the capitcal city for the intents of WAR, and surely Malekith would not allow sorcorers on his personal Ark, yes? In the end, I don't really care of they use male Sorcs or not, and could see it being done either way.

[Eltair Shadowblade]

True we are from house Ulthorion, but the Fist of Malekith is the capitcal city for the intents of WAR, and surely Malekith would not allow sorcorers on his personal Ark, yes? In the end, I don't really care of they use male Sorcs or not, and could see it being done either way.
That, and they'll be healing a black guard.
A black guard would chop their head off.
No questions asked, instant death.
And he would probably assume the sorcerer wanted to kill him, instead of heal him

Note: this only goes for male sorcerer's.
Female are perfectly fine.

[Emeraldw99]

That, and they'll be healing a black guard.
A black guard would chop their head off.
No questions asked, instant death.
And he would probably assume the sorcerer wanted to kill him, instead of heal him

Note: this only goes for male sorcerer's.
Female are perfectly fine.

I'm sorry but thats just not the case. Xurre qouted the army book's page on it and no where in there does it say they will be killed. The only negative is they aren't allowed into the covenant legally. This means that BG's won't kill them outright. They can hate them (but who don't they hate?) but they won't outright kill them, particularly not during a battle.

[twinoceans]

though to me its really clear that the Witch King wont employ any male sorcerer, despite the controversy over whether male sorcerers are banned by mean of execution or not. maybe the drachau or the individual lords of the druchii will. so at the end, its totally up to Mythic, either way they choose whether to have or not have sorcerers, they'll have a good reason to back it up.

[Zandalar]

ill just say this, if they dont have male sorcs then squig herder would be the only class i would play in dest if i were to not play order.






witchhunter FTW!!

[YGR]

Since I myself never researched the Druchii much due to being a rodent fan myself, I assumed all these claims that male sorcerers are slaughtered on sight were true. Now that I have read what the actual army book says, my hopes are renewed. I do not mind every other Druchii player spitting at me and being banned from my capitol as long as I can play the character I want to. It would sort of add to the experience, actually. Many thanks to you, Xurré!

[Tirath]

To hell with that. If the lore says it and there is absolutly NO other idea you can come up with, then leave the lore alone.



Now if only Mythic actually knew that female Chaos warriors were part of the lore......................


P.S. Since when does a Savant care about the fluff of a game?;)


Waaagh Krulltak, That`S cause they are like human pronstars: U know they are there..... But hell no ull never meet one ;)

[Zoatibix]

Males cannot join the Covenants. That doesn't make them KoS unless practising magic without belonging to one of the Covenants is a capital offence.

What Mal' has done is cut the males off from a very large political block (and source of magical knowledge). I think in this case his arrogance has led him to believe that this is sufficient to prevent a Sorcerer from rising to challenge him.

Therefore, we could have male sorcerers.

The Covenant Sorcereress probably has the advantage of better training, libraries, the 'sharpening' effect of politics in the Covenants will give her plenty of opportunity to hone her duelling skills, etc. And I'm sure the Covenants will try to get their 'girls' to tag along with as many big expeditions as they can.

I dont' have a problem with male DE wizards, tbh. Except for Orcs I think more than one gender restricted class is OTT. It was right for WE (for various reasons) but unnecessary for Sorcerer(ess)s

[Xurré]

Males cannot join the Covenants. That doesn't make them KoS unless practising magic without belonging to one of the Covenants is a capital offence.
Well, to be honest I get the impression that pretty much everything is a capital offense in dark elf society. I mean, any reason to kill, right? ;)


- Xurré

[Estebar]

‘And lo, he shall rule with a dark hand and his shadow shall touch upon every land. Steel will be his skin and fire will be his blood, in hatred will he conquer all before him. No blade forged of Man, Dwarf or Elf shall endure him fear. Though will it come to pass that the firstborn son of noble blood shall rise to power. The child will be learned in the darkest arts and he will raise an army of terrible beasts. Thus will the Dark King fall, slain by neither blade nor arrow but by a sorcerous power of darkest magic and so shall his body be consumed in the flames and for all eternity burn.’


The Prophecy of Demise


As Aenarion drew the Blade of Khaine, Caledor was gifted with a prophecy which spoke of the tragedy that would befall Elvenkind. Part of the prophecy talks of a great warrior cast from his home by a Sorcerer and Malekith believes it is he to whom the prophecy refers. As a result Sorcerers are regarded with disdain, fear and superstition by most Dark Elves, and they cannot be admitted to the Convent. There are those in Naggaroth, however, who will employ such magic users to avoid owing a debt to the High Sorceresses of the Convent. Gee, if I was the leader of an ambitious Druchii House like Lord Uthorin, planning on trying to usurp the Witch King's throne and everything... Well, if the Witch King was prophecised to die "by sorcerous power of darkest magic", I'd wanna keep a few male Sorcerors hidden somewhere around my House, wouldn't I? Either that, or I'd want to learn sorcery myself and have the greatest weapon against Malekith in my possession...but that's a little too risky. Might as well keep a few pet Sorcerors around, eh? ;)

...but, I agree with Xurré. If the Prophecy of Demise is acknowledged in WAR, I can't see how male Sorcerors are gonna be able to fling sorcery around in front of Black Guard if they're sworn to protect Malekith from prophecies that foretell his agonised death at the hands of that same sorcery.

[Zoatibix]

In which case, why are sorceres merely banned from joining the Covenants, rather than KoS?

If Mal' and therefore the BG see them as an immediate threat in any form they would be KoS.

@ Xurre. Well, yes, 'Breathing without due care and attention' can probably get you into a lot of trouble :D

[Aysor]

Every MMO has trouble attracting people to support classes. They have tried to address this by having all support having to do damage. If the Sorc. is the support class why would they make it gender restricted. Lore or not people need to play support, the only way the Sorc. will be gender restricted will be if it is ranged dps, IMO. Every other support class including Warrior Priests can be male/female for a reason. No support = no fun for the race! If fewer people play the other restricted classes it would simply make it difficult, nobody will wait 1hr+ for a WE but I'll bet 1 copper penny:smile: they sure as hell will wait for some healing class join the group.

*my post from another thread*:D

[Emeraldw99]

Every MMO has trouble attracting people to support classes. They have tried to address this by having all support having to do damage. If the Sorc. is the support class why would they make it gender restricted. Lore or not people need to play support, the only way the Sorc. will be gender restricted will be if it is ranged dps, IMO. Every other support class including Warrior Priests can be male/female for a reason. No support = no fun for the race! If fewer people play the other restricted classes it would simply make it difficult, nobody will wait 1hr+ for a WE but I'll bet 1 copper penny:smile: they sure as hell will wait for some healing class join the group.

*my post from another thread*:D

Well we aren't sure Sorc's are support yet but it certainly seems likely that it will be the case. Also I wouldn't worry about Support being underpopulated. Hopefully you only need one support class to run a party in an instance.

[Xurré]

Another quote... I just took a quick look at the Mordheim rules and if they allowed male Sorcerers (I expected that it would) and I found this:

0-1 Dark Elf Sorceress
55 Gold Crowns to hire
Dark Elves are strange in that apart from the fell Witch King there are no other male sorcerers, all the other practitioners of magic in the Dark Elf race are female. It is rumoured that any males who do develop an affinity for magic amongst the Dark Elves are immediately put to death to fulfil some dark prophecy. Dark Elf Sorceresses are mysterious, ravenhaired beauties who are grudgingly respected even from the powerful High Born and their services are high in demand.
Note that the dark elf warband rules for Mordheim are considered to be unofficial*. They were written by Games Workshop, but, for reasons I'm not altogether certain about, they never considered them to be official parts of the Mordheim rules. Maybe that's because the dark elf warband was created for the Lustria setting (instead of Mordheim, City of the Damned, itself).

Either way, as I understand it that was written by Games Workshop, so at some point it seems like they considered male Sorcerers as non-existing (and pretty much kill-on-sight).


[EDIT] * As wiki puts it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordheim):

Unofficial Warband: Any warband published by Games Workshop, which is currently NOT allowed to be used on Official Games Workshop Mordheim Tournaments. They tend to be listed on the Specialist Games Mordheim Rules Review, but as a rule of thumb... if it is not explicitly listed as Official, then it is unofficial!


- Xurré

[Estebar]

...but something I found might help us wonder where they stand on the Sorcerer's inclusion. From here (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/community/grabBag/grabBag_july.php):

Q: What happened to Strigos? Isn't that the proper name for the Mourkain Empire?

A: MD: When we started crafting our backstory, GW suggested that we use the 4th edition army books as our primary references. These books are packed full of lore, and so we were happy to oblige. In the fourth edition undead book, Strigos is not mentioned. Rather, the capital city and Empire of the Mourkain people (called Morgheim by modern Imperial scholars) are referred to simply as "Mourkain". When it came to our attention that the Vampire Counts army book has some different information, we contacted GW to ask for their advice. They suggested that we stick with Mourkain, and so we did. So, when initially drawing out lore to create the details of the game they used the fourth edition books and, as we all know, Sorcerers (http://www.collecting-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Image:DECA-34.jpg) were as legal as pixie sticks in 4th edition Warhammer.

[Zoatibix]

I feel the 'background fluff' from a Warhammer Army Book should take precedence over the 'bf' from other sources.

I had male sorcerers in my old army, so I'm really not going to be that fussed to see them in WAR.

[Xurré]

...but something I found might help us wonder where they stand on the Sorcerer's inclusion. From here (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/community/grabBag/grabBag_july.php):

So, when initially drawing out lore to create the details of the game they used the fourth edition books and, as we all know, Sorcerers (http://www.collecting-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Image:DECA-34.jpg) were as legal as pixie sticks in 4th edition Warhammer.
Oh, true. And that's probably also why I wouldn't be that fussed with male Sorcerers (considering that, to be honest, I didn't even know they were forbidden nowadays when I first came here since I'm way more familiar with 4th edition).

However, they did look primarily to 4th edition because it offered more lore... one could argue that in the case of Sorcerers the current edition offers more lore since in the older editions pretty much nothing was said about any distinction between male and female. ;)

Old lore + current lore > old lore (or just current lore)


- Xurré

[Gemini]

Yeah, I think the answer to this whole question and 8-page discussion is "maybe". There are ways to twist it, or just go with 4th edition and say "the prophecy never happened in WAR storyline". However, they obviously aren't afraid to do gender-restricted classes, so they might go with just Sorcoresses anyway. Mythic has GW's approval to use male sorcerers, but it's totally up to them to use it or not. We shall wait and see.

[Zoatibix]

Or Mal' just wants the male sorcerers to put their head 'above ground'.

As soon as you hit level 40 your Sorcerer becomes a public quest with special rewards for those Druchii that help kill you.

[Xurré]

Mythic has GW's approval to use male sorcerers, but it's totally up to them to use it or not. We shall wait and see.
Or, and people seem to keep ignoring this possibility, Mythic got approval from Games Workshop to use male Sorcerers as NPCs. After all, the question was asked almost a year ago when most of the Chaos classes were still unknown (I think); it's unlikely that they'd already reveal information about dark elves player classes at that time by basically going "sure, we have Sorcerers as a class and they can be male".

It's highly possible that Sorcerers will be included as NPCs for players to kill in quests and such.


- Xurré

[Gemini]

Or, and people seem to keep ignoring this possibility, Mythic got approval from Games Workshop to use male Sorcerers as NPCs. After all, the question was asked almost a year ago when most of the Chaos classes were still unknown (I think); it's unlikely that they'd already reveal information about dark elves player classes at that time by basically going "sure, we have Sorcerers as a class and they can be male".

It's highly possible that Sorcerers will be included as NPCs for players to kill in quests and such.

I recognize that is a possibility, and if they were battling in Nagarond it would make a whole lot of sense, the same way we might see Tzeentch doing some battle with Nurgle. But are the Sorcorers stupid enough to sneak into the arks full of Sorcoresess, Black Guards, and whoever else might be after their head, hide for the whole trip, and then jump out and say "HERE WE ARE TO SAVE THE DAY"? Maybe a few are, but it doesn't seem like a big enough deal for them to have gone to GW so early to ask about it.

[Estebar]

Let's also remember here:

Through cunning and treachery, Lord Uthorin's eldest son, Kaloth Coldshadow, earned for his House the privilege of drawing first blood when the Dark Elves attack Ulthuan. Along with every warrior of the House, the Black Ark Nemesis conveys Beastmasters and their fearsome creatures of war, fanatical devotees of the Temple of Khaine, and powerful masters of Dark Magic across the sea. I realise "master" can be considered an androgynous word in this modern-day world we live in, just as "actor" is now accepted as a term to describe a man or woman's profession, but there has to be some significance in the fact that they didn't use "mistresses" instead. This would suggest that we have both sexes of Sorcerors in House Uthorin, they're both out in the open and males will not be hunted seeing as they're already on our side.

Now, if it was Lady Arkaneth who was employing Sorcerors it would be another matter entirely. I imagine House Uthorin would be hunting them down as NPCs all around Ulthuan, but the fact is that they're already on the PC's side.

[Aysor]

From latest zone overview:D

When word reaches Prince Tyrion of the threat to the menhirs, he moves quickly to defend them. His warriors arrive to find a ring of Sorcerers encircling the standing stone, chanting arcane passages. The High Elves attack, but the enemy is not so easily driven off. Now, the two sides wrestle for control of the menhirs. Tyrion does not know what nefarious plot Malekith is hatching, but he has no intention of allowing it to succeed.

[Wyrmtongue]

male Dark Elf Sorcerers? Well, Malekith simply orders that they all be put to death at birth…who’s to say that his every order gets carried out?

From the TenTon Hammer interview

[Zoatibix]

That doesn't tie in with the established lore.

The Lore may deviate slightly betwenn WAR and WHFB but I really think the amount of gender restricted classes on our side is sufficient (in fact I can only see one case, the Witch Elf, as being legit).

[Joeydevil]

I think that the TTH interview answered that one.

[LuBear]

That doesn't tie in with the established lore.

The Lore may deviate slightly betwenn WAR and WHFB but I really think the amount of gender restricted classes on our side is sufficient (in fact I can only see one case, the Witch Elf, as being legit).

"We ask ourselves if it’s a necessary change due to the constraints of an MMOG, and if it breaks anything in the IP. If the answers are yes and no in that order, we’ll make the ‘bend’."
GW and Mystic has said that they will bend the lore if they see it as necessary.
They can easliy remake the lore and have the DE Male Sorceresses pledge their loaity to Malekith and fight for him in order be accepted into society.

[DGreV]

I think its needs to be female only since Malekith is prophesied to be killed by a male one. So he has them all killed so I hope it sticks with the lore

[Ayetalam]

I think its needs to be female only since Malekith is prophesied to be killed by a male one. So he has them all killed so I hope it sticks with the lore

Depends which armybook they follow. They said they will be using all armybooks and many sources for lore. Thing is if they use information from the 4th edition and prior, there is no prophecy, since the prophecy was added in 5th edition. So it could all be taken differently.

[Yavvy]

I think its needs to be female only since Malekith is prophesied to be killed by a male one. So he has them all killed so I hope it sticks with the loreThe lore, Chosen?

Malekith is far from omnipotent, and DE don't take laws seriously (only appliable when it benefits yourself). With the two quotes with non-feminine forms for them, and the possibility of using older army books and evading the problem alltogether, male Sorcerers seem the most likely to me.

[Alota]

The lore, Chosen?

Malekith is far from omnipotent, and DE don't take laws seriously (only appliable when it benefits yourself). With the two quotes with non-feminine forms for them, and the possibility of using older army books and evading the problem alltogether, male Sorcerers seem the most likely to me.

You forgot one thing: BLACK GUARDS! They are the most loyal to Malekith you can get, hence they are his personal bodyguard. And believe me, if they take it from the 5th edition perspective, they WILL kill a male sorcerer, unless they're told by Malekith not to.

[Browncoat-WHA]

This debate's been settled folks. Male sorcerers are in:
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21917

*LOCKED for consolidation with a gender changer*