Black Guard "Gimmick"

[Newber]

So pretty much every tank so far has a gimmick. Not an actual gimmick, but something that sets them apart.

Chosen incorporate dark magic and debuffs into their fighting style
Black Orcs are dirty fighters and brawlers
Ironbreakers are dwarfy -- Enough said
Knights of the Blazing sun are commanders and tacticians
Swordmasters use little bits of magic here and there along with their swordplay

So what sets Black Guards apart from the rest of 'em? Looking cool isn't enough. Are they going to be all melee with no panache? Seems kind of boring for dark elves.

[Krulltak]

Black Guard has the hatred mechanic, which is like the Ironbreaker's grudge, but instead of your allies getting attacked, everytime the Black Guard gets attacked his Hatred goes up and thus his damage.

[Medzu]

So what sets Black Guards apart from the rest of 'em? Looking cool isn't enough. Are they going to be all melee with no panache? Seems kind of boring for dark elves.

Obviously you do not read up before you post things.

Imo, the Black Guard has.. by far.. the best 'panache'.

[Newber]

I was wondering more about the Black Guard's fighting style, itself, rather than the mechanic it used to gain power. Each of the other tank classes has something different about them that makes them work differently, and gives them different abilities.

For instance, the Black Orc will disable you, or the Knight of the Blazing Sun will buff its party members, ect.

From Leipzig, we learned a lot about the Swordmaster's mechanics, AND style...:

The swordmaster has had ages of practice with his sword, and will focus on chaining special attacks together for a strong finisher, incorporating bits of magic to help him out, defensively.

But when they got to the Black Guard, they said:

This is the Black Guard.
He looks cool and has a bad- halberd.
When he gets pissed, he puts on the hurtin'.

See?

[Krulltak]

Not enough info yet then.

[Newber]

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

I was hoping there was some lore on Black Guards someone could share with me.

[The Bastard]

Well, from that we can infer they're a class that will be able to do crazy backload damage - the longer a fight goes (assuming they have ways to force hatred gains), the stronger they're get.

I could see them working as a sort of "combat control" class - abilities that either force the opponents to redirect their attacks, or highly urge it (i.e., if you attack this guy the Black Guard will rip you a new one for the next X seconds.) Maybe some fear-based abilities, and basically one of the highest DPS potentials of any tank class, but only situationally - if their opponents screw up and attack the wrong target at the wrong time, the BG will UNLEASH HELL.

This is really kinda pulled out of my , though - something thematically fitting that hasn't been too much covered of yet. Less about preventing damage like the Ironbreaker, and more about killing the out of whoever's doing it.

[Medzu]

The way I see it.. I have Taunt.. and I have Hatred.

I taunt you, you can either.. not attack me and gain a 50% damage debuff to my allies.. or attack me and make me own you faster.

Oh the grand life of a black guard.

[Freax]

I seen somewhere in a video clip of paul and some producers talking about how the Black Guard's style is kind of like a pseudo-samurai warrior with big halbards. Sounded interesting.

[Nastu]

More then likely it will be more like the Ironbreaker:

1. Taunt to take off target - Fight me or get -50% damage for 30 secs.

2. Move Based "Rage" Increasers - (i.e. for Irondwarf - next block with shield will grant 60 grudge 40 ap cost) In this case for the BG it would be such as Instant Sweeping stricke does moderate damage and grants 60 rage 20 AP cost.

3. Collision detection + Movement impairment = attack me or die attacking nothing

4. Just regular attacks on the BG

[Selendor]

In addition to the Halberds, Paul has made repeated references to martial arts and "wire work", aka "the Matrix Effect" seen in cheesy martial arts epics. :P

[Blaze]

The way I see it.. I have Taunt.. and I have Hatred.

I taunt you, you can either.. not attack me and gain a 50% damage debuff to my allies.. or attack me and make me own you faster.

Oh the grand life of a black guard.

Yes it's like a win-win situation.

And I'm sure they will have other abilities besides normal taunts. I think that if the BGs in going to tank at all in PvP he needs some pretty strong debuffing abilities to give people incentive to attack him, because of how the Hatred mechanic works.

The Black Guard is the only tank that gets more powerful as people attack him, so he has to have more abilites to compensate than the other classes or he will not be able to do his job. It will be interesting to see how they do this without making him overpowered.

Perhaps Taunts could be his second gimmic? Slightly more powerful taunts than the other tanks, or AoE taunts, but less other debuffing abilities such as snares, stuns etc. than the other tanks have. Taunting is hurling insults, distracting and annoying opponents right? I think it would fit the Dark Elf tank well to be extra good at that :p

[Vikingkingq]

Wire work. "A psychopath with the body of Neo."

And of course, an obsession with cutting people into three pieces. Not two, but three.

[Knifeparty]

In Warhammer lore, Black Guard are the official guards of Malekith (Dark Elf King) He hand picks the most murderous, insane, and tactical individuals from the DE population. They are trained to hate everything and everyone. They are also stubborn, which in Warhammer terms means they would rather die than give ground to the enemy. They also like killing people with large halbreds.

...and as a side note, i've heard alot of complaints that Black Guard are supposed to be extremely rare warriors not often seen, and is unfluffy to have so many around in the game as players would be able to play as a BG. But if Malekith is in the army, they become a mainstay unit, meaning they become more common. And im assuming Malekith is leading the raid on Ulthuan from his own "Fist of Malekith" and therefore it would be suitable for him to take legions of his own personal guard with him.

[Kellaris]

I was wondering more about the Black Guard's fighting style, itself, rather than the mechanic it used to gain power. Each of the other tank classes has something different about them that makes them work differently, and gives them different abilities.

For instance, the Black Orc will disable you, or the Knight of the Blazing Sun will buff its party members, ect.

From Leipzig, we learned a lot about the Swordmaster's mechanics, AND style...:

The swordmaster has had ages of practice with his sword, and will focus on chaining special attacks together for a strong finisher, incorporating bits of magic to help him out, defensively.
See?

I still don't get it. You are talking about style but You give examples of mechanics. Disable, buffs, chaining special attacks are mechanic.
A bit of lore about BG is already posted, but it has still a little to do with style.
I think A chosen style is not that he debuffs. His style is his "biggest armour You have ever seen" and its intimidation effect.
If this is style, I think BG will be similiar to samurai with naginata (it have been mentioned here). His artwork looks like that (also his halbard looks more like naginata or glaive than like halbard).

Also, when I have heard Paul talking about swordmaster (beeing like a jedi), I have started to think that BG is a smile to StarWars fans too.
Swordmaster is warrior that draws his strenght from his stoicism, years of mastering skills. Peace, patience...
On the other hand, BG draws his power from emotions. Hate, anger. He use his hatred to gain strenght and focus;). Clearly, a Sith.
And BG boss is a Great warrior scarred by fire and sealed in his black armour.;)

[dynamo112]

.Perhaps Taunts could be his second gimmic? Slightly more powerful taunts than the other tanks, or AoE taunts, but less other debuffing abilities such as snares, stuns etc. than the other tanks have. Taunting is hurling insults, distracting and annoying opponents right? I think it would fit the Dark Elf tank well to be extra good at that :p

Im a bit suspicous about AoE taunts and the way they work, that would spell trouble for the tank that did that. Sure they are meant to tank multiple enemies but if you taunt a large group of ppl your gonna go down alot quicker than if you just taunted 1 melee guy that's beating on one of your ranged buddies. Aint no amount of healin' gonna keep you alive through that. :shock:

[Ruinx]

I seen somewhere in a video clip of paul and some producers talking about how the Black Guard's style is kind of like a pseudo-samurai warrior with big halbards. Sounded interesting.

May I say YES PLEASE to a psuedo-samurai in full plate with a halberd. That sounds pretty ideal.

My only concern about the Black Guard is that, at this stage, it sounds like all the other classes screw you much worse if you don't hit them, than the Black Guard does. Hopefully we'll hear more information that clears that up, though. It'd be kind of sad if all tanks just worked the same way, with the taunt-based damage-debuff on all targets but them.

[Blaze]

Im a bit suspicous about AoE taunts and the way they work, that would spell trouble for the tank that did that. Sure they are meant to tank multiple enemies but if you taunt a large group of ppl your gonna go down alot quicker than if you just taunted 1 melee guy that's beating on one of your ranged buddies. Aint no amount of healin' gonna keep you alive through that. :shock:

Well, they might not affect everyone in the area of effect but only a set amount of targets (like the priest spell Psycic Scream in WoW that affected at most 5 enemies). Or if could have a fairly short radius, used mostly for making sure those in melee with the Black Guard stay in melee and dont go beating on someone else.

[dynamo112]

Well, they might not affect everyone in the area of effect but only a set amount of targets (like the priest spell Psycic Scream in WoW that affected at most 5 enemies). Or if could have a fairly short radius, used mostly for making sure those in melee with the Black Guard stay in melee and dont go beating on someone else.

Ahh, very good point. Would be best...I'd hate to have the entire enemy team attacking me. lol

[Newber]

I thought they said Swordmasters were going to be samurai-ish. Can I get a link where they said Black Guards would?

[Raes]

Im guessing that there going to have alot of spells/styles that involve bodyguarding, to get around the BG having to be hit for his hatred to rise.

Things along the lines of for XXsec you absorb XX% damage directed at an ally, or the ability to charge to an ally and block/parry for them for XXsec/damage. Lots of running around taking punches in the face for your healers/squishies, The enemy attacking your healer/squishy will suddenly find themselves faced with a BG whos damage capability is rising, time to back off or die. You WANT to be taking damage, and the PvP taunt isn't going to do the job becuase smart players will just back off for XXsec or continue to hit the original target because 50% less damage for XXsec is better than getting the BG powered up, and BG will be the gimp tank on the Dest side. We're going to have to have a lot more ways of forcing the enemy to damage us.

[Dantana]

...I like a lot of what I hear. This character will a force on the battlefield, which is what it should be... but getting to the battlefield may be the hard part. I forget the character in Star Wars but in PVE it was a long torcherous journey to level up. The payoff was what you became once you did level out. It may be that BG will be the baddest mofo on the battlefield but he earned that right of passage from baptism of hell.

Just a Thought


Legion of Steel
Destruction - Now recruiting for WAR
http://www.legionofsteel.org (http://www.legionofsteel.org/)

[Dracius]

...I like a lot of what I hear. This character will a force on the battlefield, which is what it should be... but getting to the battlefield may be the hard part. I forget the character in Star Wars but in PVE it was a long torcherous journey to level up. The payoff was what you became once you did level out. It may be that BG will be the baddest mofo on the battlefield but he earned that right of passage from baptism of hell.

Just a Thought


Legion of Steel
Destruction - Now recruiting for WAR
http://www.legionofsteel.org

They're not going to make one tank far better than the others, even if it's "harder to advance". MMO's just arn't done like that, they gear everything around the end game and balance it all accordingly.

As for black guards... I wouldn't worry too much, granted the iron breakers ability, to me anyways, sounds like it's PvP centric (more powerful when your group gets hit) and the black guards ability seems more PvE centric (more powerful when you get hit).

Not to mention, I'm wondering how Iron breakers are going to generate grudge when they're tanking in a PvE situation and no one in their group is taking dmg.

Black guards on the other hand, I think their hate problems won't be much of an issue, if you can just cast a "Body Guard" style buff on a group mate, and any dmg done to them, generates hate for the black guard.

One other thing I've been wondering from watching this discussion... Is what happens when two tanks AE taunt. Players will have their dmg to all targets except the tanks reduced by 50%. Except if you target Tank1 your dmg is reduced by 50% because of Tank2's taunt, and if you target Tank2 your dmg is reduced by 50% because of Tank1's taunt. Obviously they're just going to have to make it so you can only have 1 taunt debuff active on you at a time, but how easy is it to tell which tank is taunting you so that you know what target you can do full dmg to?

[Newber]

I'm guessing Hatred and Grudge are generated in exactly the same way. The Ironbreaker does gain grudge when he's hit -- How else would he be able to do anything solo? I also read somewhere that the way the grudge system works, is the Ironbreaker will use some ability called "Oathbearer" or whatever on a party member. When that party member is hit, THEN gains Grudge.

From what I've read, though, Grudge will simply increase the effectiveness of your abilities, while Hatred will unlock new abilities to use. It seems Grudge will not deplete, unless you leave combat, so one you get 100 (Or whatever the Grudge cap is) Grudge, your abilities will be permanantly better, when in that fight.

My guesses for Hatred are about the same, only your Hatred level will determine what abilities you CAN and CANNOT use. From what I've read, the unlocked abilities that Hatred level triggers will not deplete you rHatred when you use them.

[The Bastard]

The Ironbreaker definitely has abilities that require X Grudge to use.

[Dracius]

Of course, this is all subject to change.

So I wouldn't waste too much time worrying about how it is 'now', and more about what things will be like at retail.

[Rerisen]

I'm guessing Hatred and Grudge are generated in exactly the same way. The Ironbreaker does gain grudge when he's hit -- How else would he be able to do anything solo? I also read somewhere that the way the grudge system works, is the Ironbreaker will use some ability called "Oathbearer" or whatever on a party member. When that party member is hit, THEN gains Grudge.

From what I've read, though, Grudge will simply increase the effectiveness of your abilities, while Hatred will unlock new abilities to use. It seems Grudge will not deplete, unless you leave combat, so one you get 100 (Or whatever the Grudge cap is) Grudge, your abilities will be permanantly better, when in that fight.

My guesses for Hatred are about the same, only your Hatred level will determine what abilities you CAN and CANNOT use. From what I've read, the unlocked abilities that Hatred level triggers will not deplete you rHatred when you use them.

Hmm. It will be interesting to see how those two opposite abilities square off. I have to say the way it was explained (that the Dwarf gains Grudge as his friends are hit) I didn't really picture it as a 'reactive' type ability where say, he suddenly sees his Runepriest being attacked and then he has to throw up the Oath on that guy. It seemed more like a area based thing or else restricted to whoever was in his party. If it's basically just hatred that he can keep on himself - or throw on a teammate, then it would be a lot more powerful than Hatred just because it can be moved around. Unless the amount gained from a particular attack was much less than what a Black Guard gains from Hate.

[Kellaris]

I'm guessing Hatred and Grudge are generated in exactly the same way.

It have been clearly said in the podcast that they are generated in opposite way.

I don't aggree that BG is designed for PvE. I belive he will be very strong in small scale PvP, where he can EASILY control the situation with roots, stuns, snares, taunts and shields.
IB will be better in mass PvP where he cannot control everything and his friend are beeing hit.

I'm not quite sure why people bother to invent some "magic" ways to make other people attack BG. I he is similiar to IB (And he IS), it's enough to look at IB skill list.
Roots, stuns, snares, taunts, shields and AoE attacks.
And MASSIVE weapon. A weapon that will deal massive damage even without hatred.
It's a matter of logic. Two-handed weapon deals more damage than one-handed weapon.
For all people that strongly belive that tank = no damage, I sugggest to read some convention write'ups. Tanks are not so much inferior to DPS'ers when You count overall scenario damage.
Biggest difference between Tank and DPS is not damage dealt. It is armour vs mobility.
DPS hunts people, goes after enemy and deal massive damage to running enemy (positional attacks). Tanks are slower and use roots/snares/taunts to keep enemy in fighting range. And Tanks damage is lower, but not so much.

[Blaze]

One other thing I've been wondering from watching this discussion... Is what happens when two tanks AE taunt. Players will have their dmg to all targets except the tanks reduced by 50%. Except if you target Tank1 your dmg is reduced by 50% because of Tank2's taunt, and if you target Tank2 your dmg is reduced by 50% because of Tank1's taunt. Obviously they're just going to have to make it so you can only have 1 taunt debuff active on you at a time, but how easy is it to tell which tank is taunting you so that you know what target you can do full dmg to?

What happens when two tanks taunt the same traget in any situation I wonder? I doubt taunt debuffs stack (that would be silly) so targets that are already taunted are probably immune. But when there are more than one tank around and someone gets taunted, how do they know who it was?
I suppose they should include some sort of visual aid for the target that has been taunted that clearly shows who has taunted him, so that he can focus on that tank and deal full damage. Some kind of marker that hovers over the tank? The tank glows? Whatever it is it needs to be clear.

Oh and I agree with Kellaris. People need to stop thinking about the tanks is this game as traditional pve tanks whose only job is to take damage. In the podcasts they call the tanks "defensive melee". They might have group protection abilities but they are melee classes and can deal good damage just like any other class in this game. They just lack the positional attacks, burst damage abilities (combos finishers, berserking etc.) and mobility that melee dps aka "offensive melee" have.

[Prep]

If I had to guess about what type of taunt the black gaurd will have, it would be one that increases hatred if the player ingores the black guard. Single target of course and can only be placed on one target at a time. Seems to make sense that if someone is ignoring him, he'd get pissed off.

I really hope the black guard is a single target (or 1v1) wreaking ball, the above would make that him function roughly the same in group settings (damage wise) as he would during a duel; focus on one target.

For group utility, the above would work great for killing that guy after your healer instead of just reducing the damage your healer would take; ie, quckly killing instead of reducing damage.

Single target focus ftw.

[Tonev]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I could have sworn in the books put out by GW, not only did High Elf Sword masters use magic but the Black Guard did also.

This ranged from them using magical armors,shields and swords. I personally don't think the hatred mechanic will be the only thing the "Black Guards" will be using ingame and I think a lot of you will be suprised also, to see them pulling off a few magic tricks that "all" Elven kind has a inherent ability to do.

[Newber]

See, magic using was the kind of "gimmick" I was looking for.

-Black orcs are dirty fighters, so their abilities are based around poking you in the eyes and junk

-Chosen are given powers by Tzeench, so they'll debuff

-Knights of the Blazing Sun are commanders, so they'll buff

-Ironbreakers are dwarfy... They'll do dwarfy stuff

-Swordmasters mix swordplay and magic to slice you up


When I asked what their gimmick was, it was when all I knew was they wore spiky armor and had a spiky halberd; I had no idea what they would do besides taunt and attack. Sorry if I was a little indirect, but I asked the question to get a feel of what their abilities might be like.

If they use magic, I guess they'll be doing similar stuff to Swordmasters, only cooler.

[Relinquished]

So pretty much every tank so far has a gimmick. Not an actual gimmick, but something that sets them apart.

Chosen incorporate dark magic and debuffs into their fighting style
Black Orcs are dirty fighters and brawlers
Ironbreakers are dwarfy -- Enough said
Knights of the Blazing sun are commanders and tacticians
Swordmasters use little bits of magic here and there along with their swordplay

So what sets Black Guards apart from the rest of 'em? Looking cool isn't enough. Are they going to be all melee with no panache? Seems kind of boring for dark elves.

Tanking with a halberd? Come, what could possibly be more badass?

[Newber]

Tanking with a halberd? Come, what could possibly be more badass?

Tanking with a halberd on crack.

[Dracius]

Tanking with a halberd on crack.
Because drugs are cool?

[Khaade]

Tanking with a halberd? Come, what could possibly be more badass?

Tanking with a paper clip and a small piece of string as.... MacGyver! dun dun dun.......

[Shadowform]

The way I see it:
- If they made BG a Tank with Little Magic, then they made a great Idea. More like Shaman *DROOOOL*
- If they made BG Only Weapon dealer as an Arms Warrior like WOW, then they made a bad class and boring to play too.

When ever I hear "Hate Mechanic" I always Imagine that BG when he reaches 30% of his health that u can Press his "Iron Button" and go Beserk, which is:
- Holds his 2-handed Halberd weapon on one hand and a Sword on the Other, Swings both of his weapons like a Cyclone and slaughters his enemy and yelling "Who's your daddy? Who's your daddy? Who's your daddy?"

LOOL Pure Ownage, however... it wont happen -__-

[Prep]

If the black guard gets any magical abilities (lore?), I hope they are defensive in nature.

Spell reflect
An ability that greatly increases willpower (general resist magic stat) for about 10 seconds
Some sort of debuff shedding that removes all negative effects

[Chielz0r]

what sets black guards really apart is: They cut you into 3 pieces!

[Gaerolth]

Dracius had said: Black guards on the other hand, I think their hate problems won't be much of an issue, if you can just cast a "Body Guard" style buff on a group mate, and any dmg done to them, generates hate for the black guard.

I personally think they'll get a move like this and combined with the power to taunt these two alone will bring woe to those who ignore the Black Guard tank. I'm surprised no one has mentioned is that even if they have a few debuffs and ways to generate hate ignoring the blackguard will be dangerous. From the sounds of it they become more powerful as the battle rages on. Therefore, if they're in the thick of melee and being ignored then aoes will be hitting them as well. If that's the case as long as a healer is hitting them that alone will boost their power immeasurably.

Throw in some debuffs to make their targets softer and you have a class that'll rip you to pieces if you ignore them. Sure they won't have as much dps as a pure dps class but if they weaken the opponent's armor, attack speed, and their damage while having their own increased then they'll definately tear what they're after apart.