high elf mounts are also horses like empire?

[Bloodboil]

pretty obvious that empire will have horsemounts
but high elves also horses?

wouldn't it be disappointing to have races with the same mounts?
high elf horses do they differ from empire ones (lorewise) or do they just wear different decorations?

[Truce]

wouldn't it be disappointing to have races with the same mounts?

No. I don't think elves should ride around on some fanciful creature less practical than a horse just for the sake of being different. Besides, it's a major part of the lore that Ulthuan is home to very good horses.

They should have unique barding that makes their horses look different from Imperial and Chaos horses, though.

[d34thw15h]

Elven steeds are much different from the mounts humans ride on. They bear some sort of sentience, and they're much faster. I believe they're a hand or so higher as well.

But honestly, anything that will get a person from Point A to Point B should do!

[Krulltak]

Elven steeds are much different from the mounts humans ride on. They bear some sort of sentience, and they're much faster. I believe they're a hand or so higher as well.

But honestly, anything that will get a person from Point A to Point B should do!

Basically.

An Elf horse is to an Old World horse like what an elf is too a human: Swifter and smarter.

[Bloodboil]

i see..well if they look different enough i guess its not so bad:)

[Krulltak]

i see..well if they look different enough i guess its not so bad:)

Well, from the TT models they just look horsey, but skinnier.

Not much a difference, but get used to it.

[Korhadris]

Think Arabian compared to Clydesdale, in terms of real-life equivalents...

[mongoose]

Think Arabian compared to Clydesdale, in terms of real-life equivalents...

Filthy Elf thing thief! I was gonna use that example! :mad:

here are some pics though......

Elven Steed (http://www.arabianstack.com/sub-pages/images/10430-1.jpg) or this (http://www.fourpillarsfarm.com/Delta.jpg) (the body should be primarily white to maybe a lt. grey)

Empire Horse (http://www.suomenclydesdale-shire.com/images/clydesdale_clara.jpg) or this (http://www.rockinghorsedepot.com/Pictures/Clydesdale%20Horse.jpg) (these things a BIG and sturdy)

[Jest]

As others have pointed out, High Elf horses are somewhat more aesthetic in comparison to the Empire breeds. They are bred for different regions, so thus, are built differently. But beyond that, the Warhammer world, despite being a fantasy genre, is very realistic in terms of being logical. You won't see Elves riding around on the backs of cats in this game because honestly, cats are not built for riding. Here's a little test you can do at home to illustrate this fact. The things you need are:
A cat
A sock or small towel
Enough free time to perform experiments like this.First, your cat must be "out and about". It doesn't work if it's sleeping, sitting, or playing with something. Just try to get it when it's walking around. Take your sock (or small towel) and place it across the cat's back, perpendicular to it's spine. Place it somewhere in the middle of the back, where you would picture a small saddle to go. Monitor the cat's reaction.

I won't give it away as to ruin the outcome, but every cat reacts this way. It's part of their instinctual reflex. They are not built to bear things on their backs because they rely on the curvature and high flexibility of their backs in order to run and jump. Putting a saddle and a 150-250lb humanoid on it would render even a large feline useless. Some games do consider riding around on a giant cat to be a logical thing, but those games aren't even close to the caliber of the Warhammer genre.

Thus, the Elves get horses. It's logical, and the Elves are very logical people.

And if anyone's wondering how I came up with the experiment.. well, let's just say it has nothing to do with a lot of cats, a little too much Arbor Mist, and Sex & The City boxsets.... :oops:

[Hatemonger]

That is all very interesting, but criticizing other fantasy franchises for not being 'logical' is preposterous. When I think of the word 'fantasy', the first thing that comes to mind isn't 'logic'. Besides, why do you assume that cat's in a fantasy environment have the same physical anatomy as those in our world? Why do you even think this is relevant?

[mongoose]

You won't see Elves riding around on the backs of cats in this game because honestly, cats are not built for riding. Here's a little test you can do at home to illustrate this fact.

First, your cat must be "out and about". It doesn't work if it's sleeping, sitting, or playing with something. Just try to get it when it's walking around. Take your sock (or small towel) and place it across the cat's back, perpendicular to it's spine. Place it somewhere in the middle of the back, where you would picture a small saddle to go. Monitor the cat's reaction.

I won't give it away as to ruin the outcome, but every cat reacts this way. It's part of their instinctual reflex. They are not built to bear things on their backs because they rely on the curvature and high flexibility of their backs in order to run and jump. Putting a saddle and a 150-250lb humanoid on it would render even a large feline useless. Some games do consider riding around on a giant cat to be a logical thing, but those games aren't even close to the caliber of the Warhammer genre.


While your little test was both interesting and a litte disturbing there are some BIG differences between a domestic house cat measuring all of about 2' and weighting in at ~10lbs vs a tiger at 7'-10' and weighing in as much as 700lbs. Their spines arent nearly as flexible as that of a domestic cat and have traded in much of that flexibility for power and strength which would help in the possible suport of a human sized object.

Now Im not saying that a tiger can hold a person on its back (good luck trying that theory out ;)), only that its much more possible but still improbable but not for the above stated reasons :D

[Aeldor]

If He-Man could ride a cat, I don't see why anyone else couldnt :P

[VeriusCarth]

Filthy Elf thing thief! I was gonna use that example! :mad:

here are some pics though......

Elven Steed (http://www.arabianstack.com/sub-pages/images/10430-1.jpg) or this (http://www.fourpillarsfarm.com/Delta.jpg) (the body should be primarily white to maybe a lt. grey)

Empire Horse (http://www.suomenclydesdale-shire.com/images/clydesdale_clara.jpg) or this (http://www.rockinghorsedepot.com/Pictures/Clydesdale%20Horse.jpg) (these things a BIG and sturdy)


To be honest, if they get people in the Empire having horses like that, I might be tempted to roll a Warrior Priest / KotBS. Those horses are absolutely awesome.

[Jest]

That is all very interesting, but criticizing other fantasy franchises for not being 'logical' is preposterous. When I think of the word 'fantasy', the first thing that comes to mind isn't 'logic'. Besides, why do you assume that cat's in a fantasy environment have the same physical anatomy as those in our world? Why do you even think this is relevant?

Hatemonger, you're confusing logic with realism. True, fantasy games don't have to be realistic, but what I am talking about it just logic and the way things work. Without any kind of logic in games, you could see characters using guinea pigs (normal sized) for mounts. Logic says it wouldn't work. When games put in cat mounts, they are abandoning both realism and logic.

Mongoose, you miss the point. I am not saying that a 700lb lion would succumb to the powers of the sock test, but if you put a saddle, full barding, and a 150-200lb humanoid on it's back, it makes for the same outcome. Throughout the history of civilization, how many instances have you seen of people using cats for riding? Yes, it's true that a lion's spine is larger and more sturdy than a small housecat's, but that doesn't change the fact that the way cats (and dogs) run, they need that free range of motion in their spines and shoulder discs. Find me some instance of a culture using a kind of large cat for riding (humans on its back). Watch some videos of cheetahs running and horses running. You'll see a major difference in the motions of their backs and shoulders. Horses backs remain rigid and straight while cats' backs bend.

And for the record, I was a huge He-Man fan as a kid. I thought Battlecat was what it was all about. But let's be honest guys.. it's just not possible. Did I get all bent out of shape when games like WoW had Cat and Wolf mounts? No, not at all. I am just making an argument for why there should be more instances of horse mounts, despite the differences in race. They really are the most well-suited form of mounted transportation.

[Thoden Firehammer]

The elf kissin traitor has a point, and I agree with it.

[Kaeldor]

Hatemonger, you're confusing logic with realism. True, fantasy games don't have to be realistic, but what I am talking about it just logic and the way things work. Without any kind of logic in games, you could see characters using guinea pigs (normal sized) for mounts. Logic says it wouldn't work. When games put in cat mounts, they are abandoning both realism and logic.

Mongoose, you miss the point. I am not saying that a 700lb lion would succumb to the powers of the sock test, but if you put a saddle, full barding, and a 150-200lb humanoid on it's back, it makes for the same outcome. Throughout the history of civilization, how many instances have you seen of people using cats for riding? Yes, it's true that a lion's spine is larger and more sturdy than a small housecat's, but that doesn't change the fact that the way cats (and dogs) run, they need that free range of motion in their spines and shoulder discs. Find me some instance of a culture using a kind of large cat for riding (humans on its back). Watch some videos of cheetahs running and horses running. You'll see a major difference in the motions of their backs and shoulders. Horses backs remain rigid and straight while cats' backs bend.

And for the record, I was a huge He-Man fan as a kid. I thought Battlecat was what it was all about. But let's be honest guys.. it's just not possible. Did I get all bent out of shape when games like WoW had Cat and Wolf mounts? No, not at all. I am just making an argument for why there should be more instances of horse mounts, despite the differences in race. They really are the most well-suited form of mounted transportation.

I really also don't see the point of using logic in a fantasy game. People ride on eagles in Warhammer, haven't seen many bird-rider armies in RL either. Maybe not using cats as a mount has less to do with their spine, then with them being not a good mount in other ways: not as fast as a horse, can't run for a long time, tries to attack it's rider, scared by sound etc. That all is no hindrence though to use those in fantasy game as mounts.

Warhammer isn't more logical than other fantasy games. A lot of Altdorfs buildings aren't really build with static in mind. And if drugged women in steel bikinis wielding daggers would be a realliable military tactic, somewhere someone would have used it. 　　　　　　

[Revolutionomni]

And if drugged women in steel bikinis wielding daggers would be a realliable military tactic, 　　　　　　


It diverts eyes and leaves them open for attack!!! :twisted:

[Jest]

haven't seen many bird-rider armies in RL either

I also haven't seen many birds large enough to carry a human on their back.
Falcons and eagles are able to wear cameras on their backs. Do the proportional mathematics. At least it's anatomically possible.

And if drugged women in steel bikinis wielding daggers would be a realliable military tactic, somewhere someone would have used it. 　　　　　　Splitting hairs. You're saying the Witch Elf armor is illogical because the military as you view it (Marines running around with full body armor and M-16s) don't dress in chainmail bikinis. Well what about the civilizations before the industrial revolution? Even today, some island nations' wargear consists of a reed skirt and spear. I can think of numerous other instances where different cultures didn't cover themselves in plate-mail before entering combat. Is wearing a bikini in combat a smart thing to do in that kind of logic-sense? No, of course not. But when I say logical as it pertains to cat mounts, I guess I mean possible.

I can tell this will go back-and-forth until a lock, so no real sense to keep it going. Yes, it's a fantasy game, yes there could very well be kitty mounts or bunny rabbit mounts. The origination of my initial statements were to argue for the possible decision of more horse mounts rather than a diverse number of exotic (illogical) mounts.

[Kaeldor]

I meant wich elves versus people in mideaveal knight armor, or long bow man, musketers etc. But i agree with:


I can tell this will go back-and-forth until a lock, so no real sense to keep it going.

[Foofmonger]

You know, I bet a large cat "could" carry a human on its back (tigers, maybe not lions).

However the chance that a tiger would let you ride on its back are 0. Ever. That's probably why you have never seen someone ride one.

Who the hell is stupid enough to think they can climb up on a lion/tiger? The answer is... nobody who is still alive right now.

[Jest]

I meant wich elves versus people in mideaveal knight armor, or long bow man, musketers etc. But i agree with:

I know, I know. ;)
I understand what you're saying, but there really have been instances of cultures clashing with hugely different "equipment", i.e. Zulu. Just separating the kind of logic concerned with wearing bikinis into battle with the logic concerned with using anatomically incompatible species for bearing humanoids on their backs. Maybe I'm just an advocate for the horse and don't realize it. :|

You know, I bet a large cat "could" carry a human on its back (tigers, maybe not lions).

I'm sure if you found some way to put a saddle on it's shoulders rather than it's spine, it could be done. But like you pointed out, it wouldn't be a realistic option if horses were readily available. A lion would be destroyed after carrying a human around for a day. Horses and animals like camels, donkeys, etc are just naturally built to be able to carry loads on their backs.

But yea, being able to ride a white lion around or a great eagle would be incredibly cool. I just do this --> :roll: when I see stuff like that.

[Kaeldor]

I know, I know. ;)
I understand what you're saying, but there really have been instances of cultures clashing with hugely different "equipment", i.e. Zulu. Just separating the kind of logic concerned with wearing bikinis into battle with the logic concerned with using anatomically incompatible species for bearing humanoids on their backs. Maybe I'm just an advocate for the horse and don't realize it. :|

Difference is Zulu, Maya or whatever you take didn't have superior technology to fighting they way they did, whereas DE in the case of witch elves do. But I understand what you mean with different kind of logic.

What put me off a bit in the first way is the same thing as hatemonger, that you had to criticise other games for not being as logical as Warhammer. I doubt they didn't put in tigers as mounts for HE because of any logical reasons. I just don't think logic is a major point of decision for games which have magic, dragon and whatnot (like orcs being created from funghus).

But lets get back to horses and elven steeds :D

[mongoose]

Mongoose, you miss the point. I am not saying that a 700lb lion would succumb to the powers of the sock test, but if you put a saddle, full barding, and a 150-200lb humanoid on it's back, it makes for the same outcome. Throughout the history of civilization, how many instances have you seen of people using cats for riding? Yes, it's true that a lion's spine is larger and more sturdy than a small housecat's, but that doesn't change the fact that the way cats (and dogs) run, they need that free range of motion in their spines and shoulder discs. Find me some instance of a culture using a kind of large cat for riding (humans on its back). Watch some videos of cheetahs running and horses running. You'll see a major difference in the motions of their backs and shoulders. Horses backs remain rigid and straight while cats' backs bend.


Nope I didnt miss your point in the slightest. You are comparing a 10lb 2' long cat with a sock tied to its back directly to a 600 lb 8' tiger with a saddle and person on their back. Its an unscientific comparison at best.

People have never tried to ride tigers (regardless of spine flexibility) because they are DANGEROUS. I wouldnt want my mount to be in a bad mood one day, turn and basically bite my face off (Sigmond and Roy anybody? ;)). Large cats a WAY to unpredictable and prone to outbursts, even in captivity. There is a good reason why animals such as horses, camels, oxen, mules, cows, reindeer and even elephants have been used as mounts.....because they can easilty tamed/trained, generally mellow AND they dont pose a substantial hazard to the rider.

Now I agree that the position of a saddle cant be in quite the same place as on a normal mount but its not unfeasible that if situated correctly (just behind the shoulders) it couldnt work. I however am NOT volunteering for the job of Tiger saddler.....maybe YOU could since you seem to have some previous experience with it :rolleyes:

[kizen]

*magically imbues cat with superior strength and flexability*..

all our problems are solved.

From a real life perspective, no, it isn't possible to mount or ride a large feline.

In a world where there are dragons, people casting fireballs, and demons running around, riding a cat is honestly one of the least illogical things to be present.





*by the way. i've done the sock thing to my cat before, and she moved faster than ever.... to attack my hand...*

[Aeldor]

I'd advise people should perhaps look at a White Lion before making assumptions. The ones in the chariot models are much more muscular that an ordinary lion/tiger/kitty that any comparisons are near useless.They have much more huge necks and stronger looking front legs. A real Lion would be half dead after pulling a chariot for an hour, and yet a white lion is capable of being a beast of burden in this way.

Everytime someone brings real life physics into a discussion on a fantasy game, God kills a cat-girl. I for one quite like cat-girls, so come on, let up a little..

[Jest]

Going to respond to two posts. If you don't feel like reading all of my post, at least read the bold section.


To mongoose -

The sock thing was not my way of comparing a "sock: house cat :: saddle: tiger". It was simply to illustrate a cat's reflex when something is on it's back to argue the idea of putting a saddle on a tiger's back and riding it all over the land.

I understand this is a fantasy game, and have stated so in the last 3 or 4 posts I've made, since some people seem to keep bringing it up. I understand WAR very well could have cat mounts, but it seems more likely it *may* have more realistic mounts for the races even if it means less of a diversity of mounts. I.e. Empire and High Elves both using horses, possibly.

You're right that the peoples in all civilizations did not train cats for riding because they are dangerous, but actually that is a half-true statement. Cats can be trained, and they can be taken as cubs to be trained without the risk of much danger. The reason civilizations of peoples did not train cats is because they are impractical. Most civilizations that required the use of an animal that could bear something on its back and take it long distances had more practical species at their disposal: horse, camels, mules, and the many forms of bison/buffalo. You say that a wild cat would hurt/kill someone if they tried to tame it for riding. Well, so would many wild animals. Wild stallions can be as dangerous as a wild tiger, especially if they are protecting their brood or if a nearby mare is in heat. The difference is though, that taming a stallion is much more beneficial than taming a panther for riding.

Again, I understand WAR is a fantasy game. I know that because it's a fantasy game, realism and practicality can be thrown out the window without many people raising an eyebrow. The whole purpose of my initial post was to bring up the statements that cats are impractical animals for riding due to their anatomic makeup as compared to a horse. The topic of the discussion is why Elves and Empire might share horses as their racial mount. I am bringing up the reasons why the horse is really the best mount-friendly animal Nature ever created, and that is one of the reasons many races in the Warhammer world utilize horses over exotic and impractical animals. Sometimes races utilize exotic animals not because they too are practical, but like many have pointed out, it is a fantasy game, and sometimes exotic mounts add flavor to a race.




To Aeldor -

1) Pulling a chariot and bearing a humanoid on its back are two different things. Cats can be put on leashes with harnesses or collars and don't succumb to the "sock test".

2) The existence of a chariot pulled by lions in the TT does not make them a practical animal for mounted riding. They are still impractical, regardless of the chariot or not. The chariot is one instance of the less-realistic / practicality of the Warhammer lore and more of the fantasy aspect. Your argument would be like someone stating the existence of dark magic in the real world because there are Chaos Sorcerers in the TT.

Once again, the inclusion of cats as mounts is fine. It's a fantasy game. All of my posts in this thread have been arguing the notion that cats are practical animals for mounted riding. They are not. They are only put into games for the exotic fantasy aspect, which is fine. It adds to the game. But since the thread is not about that, and more about why some races will opt for horses over something different, I am arguing the logic behind this, in the perspective of those races. Horses are the most practical animals for mounted riding and bearing loads on their backs. Sure, horses for every race would be bland, and it likely won't happen, but the argument is still valid.

[Aeldor]

I understand your argument, however i'm trying to point out that the lions in such a fantasy setting are not the felines of Earth. This being so, the 'sock' test has little to no relevance to anything, and thus must be ignored as specious.

As i mentioned, the felines in the Warhammer world have a differant (presumaby) muscle structure to that of realistic ones. This may or may not make them much more suitable as riden mounts than even horses are. I'm not saying I like the idea, I think it would destroy the class, and the feeling of the High Elves. But the possiblity is there purely due to the fact that in this world cats are larger, more brutish, and potentially, created differantly.

You are right though of course, some games and fantasy settings often feel the need to add the absurd just to impose definition between races.

[Thoden Firehammer]

I understand your argument, however i'm trying to point out that the lions in such a fantasy setting are not the felines of Earth. This being so, the 'sock' test has little to no relevance to anything, and thus must be ignored as specious.

As i mentioned, the felines in the Warhammer world have a differant (presumaby) muscle structure to that of realistic ones. This may or may not make them much more suitable as riden mounts than even horses are. I'm not saying I like the idea, I think it would destroy the class, and the feeling of the High Elves. But the possiblity is there purely due to the fact that in this world cats are larger, more brutish, and potentially, created differantly.

You are right though of course, some games and fantasy settings often feel the need to add the absurd just to impose definition between races.


Agreed, you can't just cut and paste different animals from otu world to the fantasy world, it just wouldn't work.

Besides that lion in that fantasy setting could easily be explained by science, and that's all that maters, the only unexplainable thing in fantasy games is magic and the combination of magic and items.

[Aldebrand]

High elves TT-wise ride elven steeds, great eagles, griffons, pegasi and very rarly dragons. Only one of these lacks the rules governing flight.

I can also say that an elves steed is 18 pts compared to the one in the empire that is 15 pts for its increase in movement and initiative. Both of these can be barded for an increase in armorsave.

[Athenys]

Think Arabian compared to Clydesdale, in terms of real-life equivalents...

Not really. Arabians are somewhat petite and delicately featured horses with more compact limbs, their backs can even have less vertebrae than other breeds. From what I've seen/read Warhammer elven horses look much like the elves themselves; they have slender heads, straight profiles (Arabians are dished) lean frames and long limbs. Despite their light build they are rather tall for riding horses, which makes sense; the elves are not a small people! In retrospect if there is any RL breed that looks like an elven horse it is the Akhal-Teke:

Shaar_Shael (http://www.akhalteke.org/web/karakum.nsf/PermaLinks/TNKH-733P3D)

Heck even that horse's name sounds elven :razz:!

[LastHeretic]

i know i'm being picky and blunt. we all know you mean the sabre mounts from WoW, which to be fair is a great example of why mounts should be kept (hesitates to use the word) LOGICAL.

riding a sabre is all around a bad idea (even for an elf) whereas riding a horse is all around a good idea.

horses are amiable, loyal, intelligent, fast and tough.
sabres are vicious, prone to abandoning you, nippy but not for long distances and are altogether soft.

i know this is applying our world to the warhammer world. but if the black guards used the blunt ends of their halberds instead of the nasty end....well it just wouldn't work now would it : \

yes i'm lacking in jargon/technical crap/general wit but thats how i see it.

[Evander]

To people who keep on that awkward cat theory.

Here is a chart about the evolution of the Horse (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dd/Horseevolution.png).
Now imagine that first creature being introduced to a saddle.

Imagine mankind had found a way to tame the lion, they could continue to breed the greatest and strongest animal and eventually create the perfect mount.
It's not that odd, humanity has been breeding horses, dogs, pigs, cows and whatever into all perfect kinds of shapes and sizes to mankind's personal benefit.
You think that those big working horses evolved into it's shape because nature demanded it?
You think your little poodle existed in the wild?
You think that cow with that large utter, that constantly walks so clumsy, always looked like that?
In time, anything is possible.

[Jest]

You think that those big working horses evolved into it's shape because nature demanded it?
You think your little poodle existed in the wild?
You think that cow with that large utter, that constantly walks so clumsy, always looked like that?

Nope.
Nope.
Nope.

Never said anything of the kind.

But humankind is not directly responsible for the way animals evolve. Most of it is natural selection. Humans have not been using work horses long enough to cause an evolutionary step. They were chosen for work horses because they were big, and powerful. They evolved to that point for other reasons than to pull a cart or operate a mill. The ones that do those jobs tend to grow larger because of muscle growth, but that is all individually determined.

Yeah, anything can happen. That's not really where we're aiming this discussion to go, though. Sure, cats in the Warhammer world may have evolved into a different anatomical makeup from cats in the real world, who knows. But copping out with statements like that tends to kill a discussion.

[Hatemonger]

riding a sabre is all around a bad idea (even for an elf) whereas riding a horse is all around a good idea.

horses are amiable, loyal, intelligent, fast and tough.
sabres are vicious, prone to abandoning you, nippy but not for long distances and are altogether soft.

i know this is applying our world to the warhammer world. but if the black guards used the blunt ends of their halberds instead of the nasty end....well it just wouldn't work now would it : \

If you already realize the fault in your argument, then you should probably stop making it.

Obviously, Sabres are not vicious, fickle creatures who disdain traveling long distances, in the WoW universe. It's a simple as that. It is perfectly logical for someone to ride one, given their characteristics in the universe we are playing in.

The halberd example is not at all comparable. It wouldn't be logical to use the blunt end of a halberd, because there's no reason to logically assume that it would be better than the sharp end. This is not the case for Sabre-mounts.

[Isidril93]

And there might b monstrous mounts such as dragons and Gr8 Eagles and Griffons

[mongoose]

But humankind is not directly responsible for the way animals evolve. Most of it is natural selection. Humans have not been using work horses long enough to cause an evolutionary step. They were chosen for work horses because they were big, and powerful. They evolved to that point for other reasons than to pull a cart or operate a mill. The ones that do those jobs tend to grow larger because of muscle growth, but that is all individually determined.

<blink><blink><blink> You sure you want to make that statement??? :rolleyes:

While Im not saying that Mankind has been responsible for ALL genetic mutations, it certainly has been responsible for some.

You are correct in that certain animals were initially chosen for favorable traits like horses for mounts and beasts of burden but Evander is correct in that we have definitely accelerated that evolutionary process. The horse is a good example.......through centuries (and millenia) of breeding we have created the mighty Clydesdale and the graceful Lipizzaner Stallions. Both started from the same original stock. At one point someone wanted certain traits (fast riding/leaping) while some desired others (pure brute strength and size) and then selective breeding gave us what we have today.

One of the best and most extreme examples of this is the taming of the wolf into the domestic dog. It took 15,000 years to get from a wolf to your basic dog but less than 2,000 (and in some cases 200) years to get the variations we see today......from Chihuahua to Great Dane they all descended from the same wolf line and it was Humans who forced those drastic changes, not natural evolution.


Relating that to cats........while it is somewhat unrealistic, given the general temperament of the large cats, if man hadnt had Wolves to tame 17,000 years ago (or other animals to ride) but did have large cats of some sort, maybe just maybe we would indeed have an interesting array of cats today that very well could be used as riding animals. :rolleyes:

[Nunizillion]

So basicaly back on topic, HEs will be ridding nice skinny athletic white horses :D

[Thoden Firehammer]

To people who keep on that awkward cat theory.

Here is a chart about the evolution of the Horse (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dd/Horseevolution.png).
Now imagine that first creature being introduced to a saddle.

Imagine mankind had found a way to tame the lion, they could continue to breed the greatest and strongest animal and eventually create the perfect mount.
It's not that odd, humanity has been breeding horses, dogs, pigs, cows and whatever into all perfect kinds of shapes and sizes to mankind's personal benefit.
You think that those big working horses evolved into it's shape because nature demanded it?
You think your little poodle existed in the wild?
You think that cow with that large utter, that constantly walks so clumsy, always looked like that?
In time, anything is possible.

Actualy Evander, evolution would only serve to prove that there can be ridable lions in the warhammer world.

After all there planet isn;t our plant, different animals emerge it's a different system over all, depending on the enviroment, yeah it could most definitly happen.

However I feel kind of funny for applying a real world system such as evolution to a fantasy game.

[Jest]

mongoose, :P you seem to have left out part the Wikipedia excerpt you're using, that dogs were domesticated from wolves as recently as 15,000 years ago. It goes on to say..

Other research suggests that dogs have only been domesticated for a much shorter amount of time and were domesticated from populations of wild dogs, which had previously diverged from wolves.Basically saying it's up in the air on what happened first, evolution or domestication. Not every breed of domesticated dog evolved from being domesticated by humans. But rather, may have evolved for many other reasons including: habitat, region, hunting habits, defensive traits, etc. Since the Canidae species evolved from Miacids over 40 million years ago, and human beings were traced back to their beginnings only 200,000 years ago.. I just find it hard to believe dogs, as we know them today, began to evolve through domestication by humans and not natural selection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection).

Do we really have to keep debating natural history? I've already conceded that WAR is a fantasy game and thus, I cannot argue the impossibility of feline mounts. :roll:

[mongoose]

mongoose, :P you seem to have left out part the Wikipedia excerpt you're using, that dogs were domesticated from wolves as recently as 15,000 years ago. It goes on to say..

Basically saying it's up in the air on what happened first, evolution or domestication. Not every breed of domesticated dog evolved from being domesticated by humans. But rather, may have evolved for many other reasons including: habitat, region, hunting habits, defensive traits, etc. Since the Canidae species evolved from Miacids over 40 million years ago, and human beings were traced back to their beginnings only 200,000 years ago.. I just find it hard to believe dogs, as we know them today, began to evolve through domestication by humans and not natural selection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection).

Do we really have to keep debating natural history? I've already conceded that WAR is a fantasy game and thus, I cannot argue the impossibility of feline mounts. :roll:

Yay for you except I didnt use Wiki and I never use just one source of information (especially Wiki because its often times incorrect)

The truth is we really dont have a clue EXACTLY how dogs evolved from wolves. It could have been a lesser separate strain that broke off all on its own, Human forced domestication or even a combination of both......we simply dont know. All we know is that dogs were once wolves. The important part of my post though was that regardless of how it happened, it was mans direct interbreeding (interfering) less than 2,000 years ago that caused the dog to go from one general breed to the 100's of breeds we have today. The same can be said of the domestic cat and I really feel sorry for some of the dog and cat traits people are insisting on breeding for :(

Bringing this around to the topic though you cant tell me that this horse (http://www.trainweb.org/carl/LongBeachAnimalWalk/F_2442.jpg)came about by just natural selection.......people have intentionally bred horses to get to that size. The same is true of most of the different breeds of horses, Man created them, not natural evolution.

[Purgling]

But humankind is not directly responsible for the way animals evolve. Most of it is natural selection. Humans have not been using work horses long enough to cause an evolutionary step. They were chosen for work horses because they were big, and powerful. They evolved to that point for other reasons than to pull a cart or operate a mill. The ones that do those jobs tend to grow larger because of muscle growth, but that is all individually determined.

All you have to do is look at the many kinds of dogs to see that is completely false. The Russians did an experiment with wild foxes. They were able to create a completely domesticated fox within 20 generations. Which, when you get down to minimum breeding age for a fox, didn't take long.

Back onto the off topic topic, magic makes anything possible. Hypnospellisize a tiger into thinking he's a donkey and he'll pull your wagon for you. Works for me.

And back on topic. I hope HE barding looks like the Dragon Knights. Very cool looking.

[Jest]

Yay for you

What's up with that?

Bottom line is, there's no concrete evidence that humans caused the evolution of dogs (as we know them today) from wolves. There are theories, but there is also theories that they evolved before being domesticated. There probably have been some minute changes after domestication, but the major evolutionary step occurred before humans started domesticating animals.

At any rate, think I'm done with this thread. If people are going to start making sarcastic jabs instead of just discussing the issue, no sense in participating further.

[vazzaroth]

It's all about riding the flying, land manta-rays.

[Enkmar]

Not to be rude, but if you want to ride around on a huge cat, stay in World of Warcraft.

[Hatemonger]

Because obviously, your personal preference in mounts in all that could possibly inspire you to want to play an MMO. What you don't like the gameplay, graphics, or community of WoW? Too bad, cat-boy, it's trolling time. I don't have time for logic.

I don't really agree at all.

[Enkmar]

You're putting words in my mouth and implying I was being sarcastic when I was being very literal.

Prior to WoW there wasn't much if any lore anywhere that said elves ride cats. It's a WoW thing. If you want to play a game where elves ride cats, isn't WoW the game for you? Why take offense to that? Why do we have to copy lore from other games? Warhammer is rich with it's own lore that I think is great.

And really, supplementing a quote that isn't mine nor anywhere close to what I actually said is a bit childish. And you're calling me the troll. ;p

Let me make my point more clearly. In this thread is the age old debate about throwing realism to the wind because it's a fantasy game. I disagree, based on the fact there are different levels of fantasy genres. Low-fantasy, High-fantasy, etc. Lord of the Rings, for example, is fairly low-fantasy. Magic is rare. People ride horses. World of Warcraft on the other hand, is more high-fantasy. People ride cats. Magic is virtually everywhere, etc. I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm saying they're different.

And I think Warhammer falls somewhere in between. It's not high-fantasy really, in that everything that is - everything that exists, is explainable, and therefore believable. It's not low-fantasy, because of all the mythical creatures envoked, like the Dark Elf ships being pulled by sea creatures, etc. My point was, if you want to play a high-fantasy game, play one that is currently out as opposed to trying to change Warhammer into something you want it to be.

And if you want my personal sentiments on it - you know, my own thoughts that you tried to read in making up a quote that supposedly came from me, I'd say be more original. I like the horses, but I can relate to the desire of wanting an individual mount for an individual race. This is where the be more original part comes in - why not the chariots pulled by lions? They're true to High Elf lore, yes? Why completely rip off an idea from another pre-existing game?

So to summarize, you missed my point, Hatemonger. I understand a lot of people on gaming forums are rude and nasty and sarcastic, but I'm not. I'm very literal when I speak, I say what I mean. When I said, "Not to be rude", I meant it. I'm not out to offend, or stir up a fight, and I'm definately not out to troll.

[Grungas Ironnose]

I think High elf horses differ from Empire horses alot.

First, they're more elagant, taller, prouder, basically what the perfect, as Paul would put it "lardy dardy da" horses should be, much like the elves themselves different from humans. They should look like they're they think there the most impressive creatures in the world, think grey hound compared to terrier.

Plus, armour and decoration makes them look very different too.

[shotgunbadger]

I think High elf horses differ from Empire horses alot.

First, they're more elagant, taller, prouder, basically what the perfect, as Paul would put it "lardy dardy da" horses should be, much like the elves themselves different from humans. They should look like they're they think there the most impressive creatures in the world, think grey hound compared to terrier.

Plus, armour and decoration makes them look very different too.

This is true, Empire has very basic horses, brown, functional, only their Knights get the good stuff. In HE lands, everyone gets the fancy, pure white, shining bridled horses with manes of alabaster flowing. That will be enough to set us apart.

[mongoose]

Just be happy you arent getting stuck with the non-organic Dwarf mount (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=2493&catid=member&imageuser=179);)

[Bloodboil]

lol @ that mount

[Vaeronthar]

Just be happy you arent getting stuck with the non-organic Dwarf mount (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=2493&catid=member&imageuser=179);)I lawleded.

[Screwhealz]

ya i dont think they would ever have elves ride on a tiger or sabre of some kind, and am very glad about it. Even if u think about it, in RL if u had the option of a horse or a cat, anyone picking cat is an idiot. Horses are loyal, strong, fast, tough, and can cover great distances relatively easy. The way that horses r put together, from their bone structure to their muscles it is as though they were meant to be able to carry something on their back w/o it effecting what they do much.

I have a feeling that the elven horses will be decorated a bit nicer w/ elegant armor, saddle, etc. which chould make them stand out against the empire's horses.