1.05 and Healing [Archive] - Warhammer Forums

Pisces

11-08-2008, 12:53 PM

For those of you thinking this is positive in any for form healers, you have not logged onto test yet and tried it out.

DPS is huge in comparison to prepatch. BW Sorc seems about the same, whereas sh/sw are now on par with those classes. A quick side note, it still seems melee is short shafted overall due to CC.

Previously, if someone was taking some hard damage, as a shaman, I could shield them and buy a little time to hot, quickheal/hot, then pop a group heal or morale heal,possibly saving someone from time to time.

With the damage increase, shield is blown through near instantly. Whereas I whole heartly support healing not being a hps vs dps battle, I support the use of shields etc, to basically be able to save the occasional person coming under fire.

As a shaman I was not able to keep myself alive for even a few moments 1vs1 except vs an ironbreaker and WH, by a few moment I mean long enough to get the 3 second heal off after shield.

A typical situation on live servers, if i have 3 dps classes in group and they all start taking fair to considerable damgae,I can choose one for sure and keep one of the three alive as the sole healer. This of course depends how damage is incoming on the 3 possible targets,but I'm talking worst case scenario with me being the only healer on those three targets. I found this to be fair and balanced.

On test I was not able to keep anyone alive under fire.

Keep in mind that this is a run of about 8 scenarios, Tier 4. The class balance in the scenarios was off as there were many sorc/bw/sh/sw/ib. So obviously the tests werent' all that balanced.

My overall thoughts is that healers will become more of rezzers. Some might try to spec dps but most will reroll to play a true dps class vs a sub par dps class that rezzes. Or quit if they are people that are only interested in playing healers.

Mystok

11-08-2008, 12:58 PM

that's horrible news. My healing wasn't very awesome to begin with, after 1.0.5 I probably won't be able to save a black orc from a white lion

Teowulf

11-08-2008, 12:58 PM

Keep in mind that zealots' have an even worse shield than you, and so never could keep people up in the first place. We'll be rezzers even moreso than you, since ours has half the cast time.

I hate to say it, but this game desperately needs a bubble like "that other game" has. There is currently NO way to keep anyone up from a tiny bit of focused fire even for a second. It doesn't matter if they're a tank or a squishy. Oh, and it doesn't even have to be focused fire. A couple of BWs tabbing and pressing a couple of buttons is enough to bring anyone down despite healing.

Groos

11-08-2008, 01:01 PM

A very important thing for us healers to do is provide the feedback in the test servers. This is clearly the wrong direction Mythic is going with healing, if you also look at how bad willpower scales at the moment. So, all go to the test servers, play a bit, and if you have the same impression like the OP (which is kinda obvious we all will), you need to make sure Mythic gets your opinion.
My feedback will mainly be a reminder that I think the base healing shouldn't be touched, however willpower needs to scale way better than it does now. This is what Mythic will get to know from me.

devilslayer0

11-08-2008, 01:01 PM

Sounds like its time to reroll

Mystok

11-08-2008, 01:02 PM

yeah, but the point of a shaman is hybridizing your playstyle (which would explain why all our heals are in one mastery, unlike Zealots/RPs). If they're going to nerf our healing, at least buff our Waaagh! mechanic, otherwise people are going to polarize: shaman/AMs will either go pure DPS or be forced to compensate by becoming healbots who only stack willpower and only use the AP steal from the gork tree

ZenHeadbutt

11-08-2008, 01:02 PM

And at the same time...people on Warhammer Vault say that DPS os SW/SH/Eng/Mag has barely improved and it's still easy to outheal by HoTs. Hmm...

Sources

11-08-2008, 01:04 PM

Hmm, doesn't sound good. I guess we'll be seeing a significant decrease in healers if the changes go live. Which is pretty disasterous for Destruction (and to some extend Order) I think, so low on healers.

PinkysBrain

11-08-2008, 01:10 PM

I hate to say it, but this game desperately needs a bubble like "that other game" has.
There is so much irrational bubble hatred it will never happen.

RvR = Ranged vs Ranged (except in keep battles, where it's stacking AoE disables/debuffs vs stacking AoE disables/debuffs).

PS. if I have to become a rez bot then for god sakes give us instant rez with cooldown, if I have to spend all my time in long casting time animations (getting interrupted) or stuns I will quit my healers.

SandersJudgment

11-08-2008, 01:15 PM

I tested my Zealot (r35/rr33) on the PTS recently. I only had enough time to play one scenario, as I then CTD'd and decided to go back to ranking her up. My thoughts:

- Bright Wizards weren't as annoying. Their DoTs still hurt, but not nearly as much (Playing with Fire was only hitting me for 150, this may have been a lower BW).
- Swordmasters were annoying, but still were nothing to be feared so long as I had my detaunt up (I'm also running high Toughness, which helps).
- Engineers mixed with BWs actually can add up the DoTs to make it a very effective combo. Their damage mixing together made it very difficult to heal at times.
- Squared no longer works. The thing I enjoyed Squared for was checking to see if folks were in range; however, I can no longer do this now.
- Right now, Tzeentch's Cordial heals (via buff on character) 309 periodically, which is assumed every 3 seconds for 15 seconds (so 5 ticks total). On the PTS it was healing 202 periodically, which is assumed every 3 seconds for 24 seconds (so 8 ticks total).
edit: Forgot to mention the Dark Medicine nerf hurts.

Overall, it's hard to judge the changes as they have not tampered with the fragile heal yet. I will state that it is also difficult for me to judge, as I was the only healer in the entire scenario for Destruction (not even a DoK healing him/herself). I did not find it overly difficult to survive unless 3+ people jumped me, and I did not find it too difficult to keep our team up unless they were focused. I believe Destruction won, barely, at the end of 15 minutes.

Azuviir

11-08-2008, 01:17 PM

I hate healers so I'm glad :P Ideally to me everyone would go in with the HP they have and thats it. Heal spam makes combat tedious, I'm glad if its not as effective now.

Teowulf

11-08-2008, 01:19 PM

There is so much irrational bubble hatred it will never happen.

RvR = Ranged vs Ranged (except in keep battles, where it's stacking AoE disables/debuffs vs stacking AoE disables/debuffs).

PS. if I have to become a rez bot then for god sakes give us instant rez with cooldown, if I have to spend all my time in long casting time animations (getting interrupted) or stuns I will quit my healers.
They should have a new statistic on the scoreboards that keeps track rezzes.

- Squared no longer works. The thing I enjoyed Squared for was checking to see if folks were in range; however, I can no longer do this now.

Seriously?!?! It just doesn't work, period?! Or does it just not work with hovercast? Does healgrid work? Or any other program allowing you to actually target people effectively?

And I'm sure someone will find a way around it and release a new Squared of some sorts.

Pisces

11-08-2008, 01:30 PM

I hate healers so I'm glad :P Ideally to me everyone would go in with the HP they have and thats it. Heal spam makes combat tedious, I'm glad if its not as effective now.

I agree in the sense that pvp shouldn't be hps vs dps, but healers can have tools as quick saves here and there throughout pvp encounters. This would not only make the healing class much more tactical, but it would also promote tactics other than straight assist/focus fire. I support lowering our hps and more tools. Otherwise take healers out of the game, which to do here you would have to completely revise pve.

jhorry08

11-08-2008, 01:33 PM

Also remeber that the change to the 2.5 second cast on the current 3 second cast heals, ALONG WITH making them 50% less likely to be set back, is NOT on the test server yet.

Provide feedback via the PTS after this change if you still feel like healing cannot compete with damage.

If they are going with their old method, a healing should be able to heal 150% of the highest damage class if focusing on a single target.

That way if they are healing debuffed, the highest offensive target is at a 25% advantage, giving them an opportunity to kill their target even if its being focused healed by a single healer.

Another thing that probably would help is if they give tanks the ability to absorb 20-25% of all incoming damage from all non-tanks with in a 20 or 30 meter radius, that would give tanks more of a damage-soaking capability. This would be a great addition to Hold the Line, along with a slight reduction in AP cost per second while channeling it.

SandersJudgment

11-08-2008, 01:36 PM

Seriously?!?! It just doesn't work, period?! Or does it just not work with hovercast? Does healgrid work? Or any other program allowing you to actually target people effectively?

And I'm sure someone will find a way around it and release a new Squared of some sorts.

It watches health; however, you cannot see the range of people AND you cannot click on boxes to heal on it. It's just a health bar now.

Tratur

11-08-2008, 01:43 PM

I hate healers so I'm glad :P Ideally to me everyone would go in with the HP they have and thats it. Heal spam makes combat tedious, I'm glad if its not as effective now.

Sounds like you want a boring game where you don't have to think. If healing stays as it is, all healing classes need significant increases in debuffs so we can actually start engaging the enemy with reason.

Blandendil

11-08-2008, 02:54 PM

Therion

11-08-2008, 02:58 PM

Sounds like you want a boring game where you don't have to think. If healing stays as it is, all healing classes need significant increases in debuffs so we can actually start engaging the enemy with reason.

Which means that healers will become more part-time healers and dps. Which could be all right, especially since Mythic especially siad they didn't want people to stand in the back and heal, heal, heal (if you've followed WAR's podcasts you'll know what I'm referring to).

Then again, healing should be useful, rather than a crutch one needs because one has not much else to bring to the party. So far, however, I feel it's more prudent to test the patch first before coming to final conclusions.. and to give feedback before it all goes live.

Leez

11-08-2008, 03:08 PM

I just ran several scenarios on test with my wife who is an AM. Her healing ran about 1/3 of what is is on live servers. We ran T3.

The score was fairly close in every scenario in the end. It seems to me that what we're heading toward if this goes live as it stands, and perhaps this is the intent of Mythic, is to create some sort of Half Life/Quake Wars death grind. Lots of folks dirt napping, respawn, run to the fight, live for 20 seconds in the fray, dirt nap, rinse and repeat.

Was quite an unpleasant experience for both of us. On the plus side if we can adjust to the potential new pace of combat and the flavor of rvr combat we can save $15 bucks a month and play Quake instead.

1/3 is either gross exaggeration or a miss leading statement (also, are mastery and renown points retrained?)

Maybe you are using the final totals, people are dying faster do to the major DPS buffs, which means less healing possible due to the reduced time-to-kill.

The numbers from healers coming back is HoT's do about 35% less. Not 66% interms of HPS.

Teowulf

11-08-2008, 03:23 PM

It watches health; however, you cannot see the range of people AND you cannot click on boxes to heal on it. It's just a health bar now.
Dang it, that's incredibly frustrating. Someone had better make something that works. I take it Healgrid doesn't work either?

I might really have to reroll without squared. It is a PAIN to cycle through people and a pain to click on people while they're moving.

Tworak

11-08-2008, 03:29 PM

Just as I feared, then. That's too bad.

I hate healers so I'm glad :P Ideally to me everyone would go in with the HP they have and thats it. Heal spam makes combat tedious, I'm glad if its not as effective now.

Jeeeesus Crysis. :roll:

Dramith

11-08-2008, 03:31 PM

Wait? SH/SW do similar DPS to a BW/Sorc?

So they get cloth armor and no pets then? Or do we get medium armor?

I'm confused...

Tratur

11-08-2008, 03:48 PM

Which means that healers will become more part-time healers and dps. Which could be all right, especially since Mythic especially siad they didn't want people to stand in the back and heal, heal, heal (if you've followed WAR's podcasts you'll know what I'm referring to).

Then again, healing should be useful, rather than a crutch one needs because one has not much else to bring to the party. So far, however, I feel it's more prudent to test the patch first before coming to final conclusions.. and to give feedback before it all goes live.

Would be great if my dmg was even deserving of the name. As it stands my dmg is horrendous, my debuffs aren't even worth the AP, and my buffs are marginal... luckily buffs last until death and can be casted while running back to the group.

Kushburner

11-08-2008, 03:57 PM

None of this is sounding very good. It already feels like I'm a res-bot a large portion of the time. Hot's currently aren't enough to save people from a single BW let alone any amount of focus fire from 2 or more players.

I want to stay w/ this game, I've had more fun in rvr in the last month and a half than i did in 3-4 years of WoW. However a nerf to healing and a buff to damage will shove me right out the door and onto a different game. Oh and the "Crash To Desktop" during keep sieges is really starting to get old. Costs me both the RP and a chance at loot.

HeyBob

11-08-2008, 04:00 PM

I had a hard time seeing myself outl living any witch hunters if they just nerf healing in game. I log on test and play a few t4 scenarios, and low and behold i'm nerfed wth is myhtic smoking!!!!!!!! who buffs most dmage in a game across class and nerfs all healing across classes all in one patch , Mythic you need think this patch out before u put it kive. you'll have alot off all dps no healing servers .

I could outlive a few if i got a good 3 hots off and a bubble and run till a dps could get it off me. on live server, on patch server 100% dead.

On test server now if witch hunter pops out stealth it kills you, It turning into another game i used to play a healer in, and some other class would pop out stealth and kill me always with no chance of escape

fix it lol

Firthal

11-08-2008, 04:07 PM

So they get cloth armor and no pets then?For all practical intents and purposes, SW/SH/WH/WE have always been "paper thin" as far as armour value goes. Just because you're wearing robes doesn't mean your armour's at the bottom end of the scale.

Just as a point of reference:

Top "Robe" (AM/Sha/Mag/BW/Sorc) and "Light Armour" (SH/SW/WH/WE/Eng) type armour is 280 (body), "Medium Robe" (WP/Disc) and "Medium Armour" (Mara/WL) is 560, and "Heavy Armour" (IB/SM/BO/Cho) is 842 in one given set of items.

So please, please, please stop the whining about how little protection your robes afford. It's simply not true.

They never had more survivability than you (they died less because they were doing less damage and not getting targeted) aside from the effects of your combustion/DM (which should be zilch while you're getting hit, unless you keep blowing yourself up when you're under fire, which is then your own fault) or melee combat mode (and I'm sure you're aware just how healthy moving into melee is for any class but a tank).

That said - I'm also of the mind that they're nerfing healing in order to combat heal-botting, which is a good thing - it just feels like they're going about it the wrong way. I think a change to HM/Waaagh!, an unlaughable offense for RP/Zlt and some actual survivability in melee range is what would encourage people to hybridise properly.

Blandendil

11-08-2008, 04:23 PM

I guess I failed to list possible reasons for the lower healing we saw in the T3 scenarios. The 1/3 less healing we saw was based on live server numbers we commonly do vs. the numbers we got on the test server on scenarios that run the full 15 mins or close to it. The AM averaged 53K on test and averages 150k + consistently on live.

Several things contributed to this. First, squared does not function on the test server, so healing outside of your group is very difficult. Second, it is now very difficult to keep folks alive now, which is pretty evident as you read the feedback from healers.

More dead team more often reduces your survivability as the healer as well and you spend much more time dead and waiting for respawn and running back to the fight. Its not simply a calculation of how much less the core heal does, but rather this plus the dps changes means you can heal less and slower and there is more dps in general to deal with.

Just bringing up the previously gimped classes to a respectable dps point now changes the balance significantly and I suppose on test many of the folks we played against were testing these new boosts to their classes. Heck my SW was way way better with the test changes meaning the destro healers had quite a bit of damage to deal with in a scenario that previously they didnt have much trouble negating.

PlantRightsActivist

11-08-2008, 06:40 PM

I've seen people argue for it in other games but Mythic seems to have taken it to heart: Healers shouldn't be an active part of the battle.

Some people want fights to be a straight DPS race with no healing interuptions. That leaves healers sitting on the sidelines healing up people who manage to get out of the fight and of course rezing. I find that to be a bad direction and I hope most people will agree.

Mystok

11-08-2008, 06:45 PM

I hate healers so I'm glad :P Ideally to me everyone would go in with the HP they have and thats it. Heal spam makes combat tedious, I'm glad if its not as effective now.

I hate ranged dps. It makes combat so imbalanced and makes everyone die so quickly. Ideally people would be able to live long enough in PvP to do something. I hope Mythic puts RDPS in check soon

chadthesad

11-08-2008, 06:45 PM

Actual data needs to be reported on healing.

Leez

11-08-2008, 07:02 PM

Actual data needs to be reported on healing.

Has been in your and my class forums. Several times now.

optic

11-08-2008, 07:43 PM

I would just like to know the reasong behind making the HOT longer duration but weaker overall. If they want us to have to cast it less then longer duration is fine but up the power so each tic is just as high as before.

For melee healers the HOT is the only core heal. This means it was the only one at full strength even if you don't spec in the heal mastery. This is a major hit. On live my Hot does 200 a tic. On the test it only does 118. That is a big differance in RvR.

On top of that my Restore essence says it does 175 immediatly. With 309 willpower it only did 176 to me. Umm a stat reduction to it is one thing. Making willpower have no effect is something else entirely.

Deeva

11-08-2008, 07:47 PM

I would just like to know the reasong behind making the HOT longer duration but weaker overall. If they want us to have to cast it less then longer duration is fine but up the power so each tic is just as high as before.

It's because HoTs were serving as a fire-and-forget health generator for BWs and Sorcs. This gets especially bad when the enemy has more than three: by the time you break past the enemy frontline, you're snared and spiked out by damage.

Now that it requires a bit more effort, I guess I'm somewhat satisfied. The other effects, though, hurt. My main heal costs 55 AP- that got nerfed, too, with the change in stat dependancy. My heals in general are all HoTs (admittedly, hardly anything isn't), so now I have to spam my main heal all the more to keep someone alive. At 55 AP a pop, that's very hard, especially when I have multiple people under fire at once.

Semiraghe

11-08-2008, 07:53 PM

Healers are now only good to counter Sorc or BW backlash.

Might aswell remove healing from game completely as it has no impact at all to keep players alieve.

Dps was too high to outheal before patch and now its just pathetic.

I suspect many players will leave if it stays this way, PvP was zergfest before and now it all sums up to click 3 buttons and the target is dead, not really a mechanic that makes players enjoy or resub the game cause it gets boring in days.

I dont think a game where players are killed in 6 secs even with healing support is worth playing, at least not for me.
I want PvP to actually need some skill.

Maedayen

11-08-2008, 08:33 PM

Healing is part of game strategy. Take that away and its just who can kill who the fastest.

I really hope Mythic discovers their mistake in nerfing healing before this goes live. We'll be merging servers again in no time.

Trevo

11-08-2008, 08:43 PM

After testing heals on a DoK in t4, I went back to live, and went to sac spec and am now collecting strength.

After testing heals on my shaman in t4, I cried a bit with only do sometin useful as my only viable hot. Gork'll fix it is now off my bar and I am on live getting use to healing without it.

When they were making this game they did state that they want no healbot type classes. Guess they want to remove healing from being an actual force in this game all together. Shamans spec instant cast res now!!

Maedayen

11-08-2008, 08:47 PM

Gork'll fix it is now off my bar and I am on live getting use to healing without it.

New spell description for Gork'll Fix It - Gork fixes it, by rerolling your class into a RDPS.

PinkysBrain

11-08-2008, 09:01 PM

Now that it requires a bit more effort, I guess I'm somewhat satisfied. The other effects, though, hurt. My main heal costs 55 AP- that got nerfed, too, with the change in stat dependancy. My heals in general are all HoTs (admittedly, hardly anything isn't), so now I have to spam my main heal all the more to keep someone alive. At 55 AP a pop, that's very hard, especially when I have multiple people under fire at once.
Which will make AMs DPS even less ... like we weren't AP starved enough.

Boomstar

11-08-2008, 09:05 PM

I seriously hope they buff healers by a massive amount the rdps classes got or else this game is over.

Not exaggerating.

Trevo

11-08-2008, 10:04 PM

Some numbers on my shaman.

Test=1
Level=25
Willpower=639
Gork Heal=265
Gork HoT=183
EQB=146
DSU=334
BBG=1155
GR=752

Live=1
Level=25
Willpower=640
Gork Heal=426
Gork HoT= 237
EQB=232
DSU=336
BBG=1158
GR=755

Test=2
Level=25
Willpower=221
Gork Heal=203
Gork Hot=163
EQB=132
DSU=210
BBG=906
GR=503

Live=2
Level=25
Willpower=221
Gork Heal=258
Gork Hot=181
EQB=211
DSU=210
BBG=906
GR=503

Stormblazer

11-08-2008, 10:22 PM

I've did some extensive testing with the test numbers over in the Runepriest forums, take a look if you want:
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2582501

The nerfs are ridiculous, especially for the hybrid HoT.

Also, my Master Rune of Speed is 100% broken. It doesn't even apply the buff, let alone reduce casting times.

Stormblazer

11-08-2008, 10:28 PM

It's because HoTs were serving as a fire-and-forget health generator for BWs and Sorcs. This gets especially bad when the enemy has more than three: by the time you break past the enemy frontline, you're snared and spiked out by damage.

Then the other heals should've been buffed to compensate. Rune of Mending (55AP hybrid HoT) was never something people would spend on someone not taking damage (so not on Sorc/BW). It's a power heal. It was only worth using however due to the high scaling from willpower, and they nerfed the hell out of it's scaling (see this for details (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2582501)).
So now just when we need MORE healing power, they've nerfed the hell out of it. If anything Rune of Mending and other hybrid HoTs should've been buffed.

Tiuwaz

11-08-2008, 10:36 PM

RedDevilCG

11-09-2008, 01:18 AM

Yeah, that doesn't look too good. Now let's see what the next couple of weeks bring to the PTS before it goes live. I'm willing to bet that those numbers are going to be tweaked after they get a handle on the new rDPS numbers, and adjust healing accordingly. Makes sense in science that you only change one variable at a time.

Damage 1st, then get a week of data.
Healing 2nd, then get a week of data.
Final tweaking, a week of data.
Release.

Aiiane

11-09-2008, 02:16 AM

Dang it, that's incredibly frustrating. Someone had better make something that works. I take it Healgrid doesn't work either?

I might really have to reroll without squared. It is a PAIN to cycle through people and a pain to click on people while they're moving.

Squared will work, you just need to update to version 2.6.3.

jhorry08

11-09-2008, 03:52 AM

I've summarized my views on what would be a fair exchange for healers in light of the changes at http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184951

I would love for your input as well, as so far the discussion has been largely productive.

The basic gist of the post so far as been:

Much stronger single target heal, with the proposed 2.5 cast time and less knockback chance, with roughly double the healing amount it currently heals at the base, along with a 6 second reuse timer. Same 45 AP cost. Big, interuptable to a small degree, slow but not too slow, and heals like a truck with the milage of a hybrid :P Not very effective for self-preservation if under fire, so it is not a god-like spell, but it fits the roll of allowing us to fix a lot of damage at once.

Reuse timers give us gaps to insert other abilities with out losing healing effectiveness, which is especially important if they want us to be able to damage/debuff ect while also healing.

Also, I proposed the 1 second casting heals become our "inefficient spamable" heals to counter very fast spike damage / help a ally recover quickly if near death and no better alternatives available, such as a moral ability or instant cast heal or shield. No reuse timer. It would no longer be more "efficient" than our big heal due to no longer having time to regenerate some of the AP lost during the time we would currently still be casting our LIVE versions.

and the rest basically cover the aspects that healers need more proactive, maintaining, and "oh " healing abilities spread around the three healer types, and that the MAstery Trees need some evaluation to meet this goal, each having their own "aspect" of healing that they excell at.

AM as an example:

Isha = Restorative / Emergency healing tree, its the "I'll fix the damage" tree.

Asuryan = Maintanence healing tree, its the "I'll tap-heal my allies to help deal with damage as its incoming, lightning the load on everyone while also contributing to the groups offense"

Vaul = Prevenitive healing tree, its the "I'll make our defense stronger, and their offensive weaker, while providing shielding spells and temporary damage reducing effects or anti-CC buff"

Each helps the other, and non is really supperior since all of them would be able to do each roll at the "basic" level, but each tree would definatly shape your character towards favoring a specific type.

Generally, healers that are good at Reparation will be poor at Maintenance, since one is the "heal the big damage while being predominantly defensive" while the other is "heal the damage constantly coming in while being offensive"

It opens up a lot more options for group strategy. Also, we discuss how there are plenty of methods to take down or mess with healers currently implemented that would keep any suggestions made thus far in check.

xXKazXx

11-09-2008, 06:31 AM

PinkysBrain

11-09-2008, 09:20 AM

Relying on a Add-on and blaming the lack of powerful healing because you dont have the mod is just wrong, mods are crutch helpers.
Bull, if you think you can do as good out of group healing without squared as with you haven't played a healer. Even if we were to organize like FF groups it wouldn't work well, because we can't have one main assist. Anyway, 2.6.3 should work on test, so this is moot.

pcgammerm

11-09-2008, 12:30 PM

Bull, if you think you can do as good out of group healing without squared as with you haven't played a healer. Even if we were to organize like FF groups it wouldn't work well, because we can't have one main assist. Anyway, 2.6.3 should work on test, so this is moot.

actually have to agree with kaz

the thing is in scenarios you can select people out of your group easily. all you have to do is go to scenario parties and check the other party groups, it will show you there life bars and you can click on the bar to select them. so yes you can heal without a mod to help you when ppl leave the sen groups then it is their own fault and don't deserve heals anyway...they think they are good enough to be solo then they can be 100% solo if you ask me

edit:

heh almost for got to comment on the real reason for this thread. its bad when I can no longer heal through one DPS on anyone other then a tank because of the HOT nerf. the real problem i see here is that the rDPS deal so much damage that it only takes 2 of them to drop any mDPSer before they even make it to them to me that says there is a very big problem. Now even with a healer on that one mDPSer (ie, marauder, so an example of a slightly less squishy mDPS) can' now keep them alive to get to the targets, but not long enough to make a kill...or if there is one then you got lucky.

Aqe

11-09-2008, 12:51 PM

zerohaste

11-09-2008, 01:26 PM

I think it is the right path their taking. The hots should only be counters for dots and backlash recovery.

The big 3sec (now 2.5) should be our only heal to save people getting targeted. Problem is that most people die faster, or take more dmg than the 3sec heal could do when spammed. Cast time lowered to 2.5 isn't enough, lower it to 2sec and keep the setback, or even 1,5 sec but total interrupt and not just setback. A uninterrupted healer should be insanely powerful but put someone on him and they much worse.

This would also mean that tanks get a bigger role in rvr as interrupters. I personally take daoc interrupt with very high numbers than this unskillful spamming of uninterpretable but weak spells.

While I can somewhat see the logic in HoTs being counters to DoTs, for a Warrior Priest, those HoTs were far too important. They are our only range non-group heals we can do outside of melee. In scenarios I can generally mix it up in melee and still stay alive pretty easily, but in large scale RvR I'm dead the moment I step into melee range. Especially in keep siege or defense.

The HoT nerfs hurt WPs and DoKs far more than it hurts any other healing class.

PinkysBrain

11-09-2008, 01:46 PM

They should replace the direct heal with long casting time with a channeling heal.

Bloodygrey

11-09-2008, 02:28 PM

*edited for content*

Grup

11-09-2008, 03:20 PM

as a shaman i like the proposed change to our big heal from 3 to 2.5 as it's nearly useless spell atm. The significant nerfs to our healing was completely unnecessary and also our willpower still barely affects our HoTs. Please don't nerf something that is already broken.

I did some testing to prove how badly our heals were nerfed, and how broken willpower is(way to nerf heals before even fixing willpower)

Do Somefin Useful
Pre 1.05 260 Willpower 288
Pre 1.05 682 Willpower 414
1.05 260 Willpower 288
1.05 682 willpower 414

No change from patch, and it gets a 31.% boost from 422 willpower. .3dps per willpower. This gets a somewhat respectable boost from willpower, but it should be more.

Ey Quit your bleeding
Pre 1.05 260 Willpower 313
Pre 1.05 682 Willpower 334
1.05 260 Willpower 195
1.05 682 willpower 209
This heal was nerfed by 37.5%. On top of that it gains a PITIFUL 6.7% extra heal from 422 willpower for a whopping .06dps/willpower.

Gork'll Fix it
Pre 1.05 260 Willpower 255
Pre 1.05 682 Willpower 312
1.05 260 Willpower 234
1.05 682 willpower 255
This heal was nerfed by 18.3%. It gained a 18.3% extra heal from 422 willpower pre-patch(.18 dps/willpower). After patch it gains 8.3% extra heal(.08dps/willpower) from 422 willpower because "The stat contribution for this ability has been fixed" ya this spell was fixed...no really it was.

Bigger Better and Greener
Pre 1.05 260 Willpower 1281
Pre 1.05 682 Willpower 1533
1.05 260 Willpower 1281
1.05 682 willpower 1533
This spell was unchanged from 1.05. It gains 16.5% from 422 willpower(.165dps/willpower). Also if they implement the .5sec reduction and lower the interrupt like they say they might that'll definitely help. I still believe it should be 2seconds.

In conclusion our hots were severely nerfed and the nerf wasn't needed at all. Our big heal should have been buffed instead. Also our willpower is pretty much useless for 3/4 of my shamans heals the 4th one should get a bit more from willpower. Mythic drove off a cliff when it came to healers and i REALLY hope they can get back up soon.

Sources

11-09-2008, 03:32 PM

This whole thing is already wrong because of the fact the majority of the healers were expecting a (slight) buff rather than a hard nerf. Seriously, if you said healing would be nerfed like this prior to the 1.0.5 patch notes, people would have declared you more insane than a Zealot.

Fiontar

11-09-2008, 04:26 PM

It watches health; however, you cannot see the range of people AND you cannot click on boxes to heal on it. It's just a health bar now.

If Squared or similar mods can not be fixed to allow click targeting, I'm done with healers, period. The default interface is horrible for healing. Button pushers won't care, but I've been a mouse clicker my many years in MMORPGs. I really don't care to go back to the way things were as a healer in Anarchy Online, where I spend more time looking at the keyboard than the screen.

I would assume this also kills click targeting for any party frame replacement addons. What the heck are they thinking if this is true?

So, I hope it's just that the addons need some tweaking to the changes and aren't going to be completely broken.

(BTW, there used to be a mod that made it easier to register a target click by directly clicking the toon on the screen. They killed that a couple patches ago, so they seem to intentionally want to make targeting as frustrating as possible).

salvo

11-09-2008, 04:31 PM

I'd like to give some feedback on the changes ; But i die so fast i don't even know what kills me. Incidentally its hard to tell what effects on healing the changes had when you/or your target gets destroyed in 5 second flat , sometimes less. So far i've ran 8 or so scenario and they basically all ended up the same, either we got pushed back to the spawn and camped or we did the same to them. I haven't been able to join in on Open Rvr , i would guess that the results are the same

From a Warrior Priest's point of view the changes on paper look fine , and bring well needed improvements to the career... but the changes/boosts to Dps completely negates any modification made to our spells and mastery trees.

Fiontar

11-09-2008, 04:38 PM

Either Mythics analysis of healing in Tier 3 and beyond is somehow flawed, or they actually want to make us irrelevant in PvP. Age of Conan went the "nerf the healers and cut the time to kill" route and lost most of what remained of their customers.

Tier 1 and Tier 2 are fun in this game. The give and take as each team looks for weak points and presses for an advantage is fun. Tier 3 and Tier 4, where one side is the victor in almost any engagement in under 30 seconds, with most or all of the other side laying dead in the dirt, is not fun.

Healers should not be any worse in the lower tiers than they have been. They also don't really need to be much better (beyond compensating for the overall increase in DPS in other classes). However, in Tier 3 and Tier 4 healers need to scale up significantly better than they do currently. Willpower should boost more. Skills and tactics available in Tier 3 and beyond should increase healing output significantly more than they do now.

If they continue down this road, healers will disappear first, tanks second and eventually people will get tired of insta-gib engagements and leave the game entirely. (No joke, I'd bet they could double healing output and it still wouldn't be enough).

The devs are at a fork in the road. They seem to be awfully tempted to take the road to self destruction. Let's hope they come to their senses before they start down the wrong path.

Fiontar

11-09-2008, 04:44 PM

I think it is the right path their taking. The hots should only be counters for dots and backlash recovery.

The big 3sec (now 2.5) should be our only heal to save people getting targeted. Problem is that most people die faster, or take more dmg than the 3sec heal could do when spammed. Cast time lowered to 2.5 isn't enough, lower it to 2sec and keep the setback, or even 1,5 sec but total interrupt and not just setback. A uninterrupted healer should be insanely powerful but put someone on him and they much worse.

This would also mean that tanks get a bigger role in rvr as interrupters. I personally take daoc interrupt with very high numbers than this unskillful spamming of uninterpretable but weak spells.

Warrior Priests and DoKs don't have a big, 3 (2.5) second heal. At range, it's out 2 DoTs and a group heal. The combat healing skills and mechanic are pretty much dead in Tier 3 and 4, because we don't have the survivability to get with in melee range and live for more than 5 seconds.

PinkysBrain

11-09-2008, 05:49 PM

If Squared or similar mods can not be fixed to allow click targeting, I'm done with healers, period.
I think 1.05 for the moment only disables simultaneous targeting and spellcasting with a single click, so IsHealbot doesn't work anymore in the way it used to. But using squared for targeting does.

Smoke and Powder-WHA

11-09-2008, 07:02 PM

If Squared or similar mods can not be fixed to allow click targeting, I'm done with healers, period. The default interface is horrible for healing. Button pushers won't care, but I've been a mouse clicker my many years in MMORPGs.

The Author of Squared has repeatedly stated it works for 1.05, you just have to have the updated version of Squared.

You heard wrong. Get the latest version (2.6.3 or above).

Sylent

11-10-2008, 02:42 PM

Is there any word as to when the healing changes that Mark posted are going to be put into the patch. Last word from him was a few days and that the developers were working around the clock on these issues like reducing the cast time on our big heal etc. Until these things are implemented there is almost no reason to continue playing the test server for healers as the HOT issue has been repeatedly posted as a failure.

PinkysBrain

11-10-2008, 03:44 PM

A 10% increase in HPS for our long casting time heals isn't going to make a big difference ... so if you don't find it worth playing presently then just stop, waiting for that particular "fix" won't change your mind.

Lazereth

11-10-2008, 03:45 PM

anyone know if healgrid has also been updated?... that would go a long way to making me happy :D

Stormblazer

11-10-2008, 03:50 PM

anyone know if healgrid has also been updated?... that would go a long way to making me happy :D
Just use Squared for the PST, it has pretty much the same functionality. You can easily customize it to look like healgrid I'm sure.

egg

11-10-2008, 04:13 PM

Firephoenix

11-10-2008, 04:38 PM

[EDIT]

Not constructive so removed.

Seventh

11-10-2008, 04:53 PM

egg,

You are a good man... and I hope you are right. My shaman friend has been inactive for awhile and I hope he returns with 1.05... thanks for shedding some positive light in all this darkness.

Vardar

11-10-2008, 06:00 PM

Big heals to a healer is the equivalent to nuking to a sorcerer/BW. I feel Mythic should increase healing to all healing classes, making the scenarios that much harder and more competitive. When you introduce healers to a PvP environment, it requires strategy play, some thinking, and some excellent execution to win. It raises the bar when it comes to playing, doenst it suck when you almost, i mean a-l-m-o-s-t kill someone, then BANG, they get healed, ya it sucks, but at the same time it freaking awsome, it forces you to change tactics, meaning you just dont go running in there and pointlessly attack anyone, you actually have to strategicly pick your targets.

I would really like to see Mythic implement a 'line' out of the 3 Mastery lines that is totally dedicated to healing, meaning that you can increase your heals/shields, and decrease some time on your casting as well, right now the healing classes dont have a dedicated healing line that improves 'alot' of there healing abilities, this way you have more diversity in your class, if you choose to play a pure healer you can, if you choose to play a hybrid healing class, you can. Giving players choices in choosing the playing style of there class is what its all about.

Stimmed

11-10-2008, 06:29 PM

3.0-2.5 secounds is closer to 17% isnt it? also the fact our big heal can be interupted by anything on live when the change goes in we might actually be able to cast through a hit or so makes it even moe usefull. not saying it wil stop the insane dmg output but its more then just a straight out "10%" to hps

Stimmed

11-10-2008, 06:32 PM

Totally agree tbh the healing isnt that horrid if we could cure dots alot more effectively when theres 10+ dots on one person from numerous classes its better just to rez ><

Lazereth

11-10-2008, 09:18 PM

I will admit that with 4 healers in a scenario, you can certainly do well

Certainly on my server, it is very rare to have 4 healers in a scenario, more often 1 or 2, and in open RvR its even worse.

However... once you get focused it becomes a different story.. sure i can shield / wounds buff / HoT / knockback whatever myself... but standing there aimlessly trying to cast a fragile spell is pointless.

The way we survive it atm. is to use instant HoTs to keep everyone else up and yourself after using shield / 2 x detaunts / wounds... yes its AP inefficient, but having 2 WE's pounding on you with the destro assist train coming, you really dont care! Nerf HoTs and at the very least it is now either i survive, or someone else survives.

Egg, i am also a damn good healer (and a modest one too :P), have healed since early days of EQ, and done PvP healing in Lineage 2, DAoC and guildwars... let me tell you, that this is the most unsatisfied i've been with any healing in any MMO i've played in terms of how successful my session has been, based on my healing potential.

Lifeform

11-10-2008, 09:29 PM

They should stop the same attacks from hitting more than once in a second, so if an assist train luanches three fireballs at once only one will hit, and likewise limit dot stacking.

Crode

11-10-2008, 09:39 PM

You guys are all spewing doom and gloom but the way I see it, I was OP (healed for insane amounts, and never die), and I just got even more OP with this patch. Healing was already easy.

You can say I must run against horrible groups that don't know how to focus healers. I would say you're wrong, I just know how to stay alive, and run with range dps that know when to root melee as i lead em through it.

You have got to be joking. Hey maybe you got a great team of guildies guarding your back but nobody else does. Even with your uber healing skills I hope you enjoy getting 50% or lower renown than your party.

Never die? I tell you, with my Archmage I can smack other healers silly more than any other class. And I get rewarded more for doing it.

Now go try out your healing on the test server and tell me your still useful in battle. Healers die quicker than anyone else.

----------------------------------------------------

I have to say about the Live server though is that balance is way closer than whats occurring on the test server at the moment.

Lawlbringer

11-10-2008, 10:24 PM

I REQUEST THAT A MODERATOR PUTS IN AN APPROPRIATE POLL ON THE SUBJECT AT HAND.

I.E.

Do you think the nerf is too much?

Yes, and I have posted my reason in this thread.
Yes, and I have not posted my reason in this thread.
No, and I have posted my reason in this thread.
No, and I have not posted my reason in this thread.

This way we can at least see where the general public stands on the issue. I have a feeling it'll be a huge landslide.

Browncoat-WHA

11-10-2008, 10:30 PM

I added a poll, although I put in a basic 5 question agree/neutral/disagree deal.

Lawlbringer

11-10-2008, 10:34 PM

I added a poll, although I put in a basic 5 question agree/neutral/disagree deal.

Thank you for the quick response!

Personally, I've read almost every argument in this thread, and I believe that healing should be kept the way it was, at least until the DoT buffs have settled.

Then we can actually see where healing stands in the state that things have become, because as of right now, changing both healing and damaging so radically just stirs up the water so much, vision of what is right and wrong becomes utterly muddied.

Crode

11-10-2008, 10:38 PM

Im not sure thats necessary. Its probably best to just do in game survey thing. That way you know they will read it. I hope.

Hehe Ill be voting also it seems. :D:D:D

============================

I vote disagree somewhat, since I don't believe reduced healing is terrible thing... Its just worse along with increase damage across the board. I could deal with these healing changes if other players stayed alive 2 times longer. Need more Time To Kill, IMO.

Lawlbringer

11-10-2008, 10:40 PM

Im not sure thats necessary. Its probably best to just do in game survey thing. That way you know they will read it. I hope.

Hehe Ill be voting also it seems. :D:D:D

Haha, well. It's like any survey. Take it lightly and not as ABSOLUTE fact.

Though landslides happen to bear some truth in them.

I have myself tested on the PTS server on my R40 WP, and to say the least, I feel shorthanded when every DoT gets buffed while my HoT is nerfed, and as it was, it was doing a moderate job before handling all the DPS thrown at it. Only to become less effective, and the enemies to receive stronger weapons breaks my heart.

Jack Crooks

11-10-2008, 11:11 PM

PinkysBrain

11-10-2008, 11:18 PM

So basically if we had HPS equal to the DPS of a single WH on a squishy us healers would be balanced Jack? ;) I'd settle for that, would need an upgrade in healing though.

Or maybe I'm exagerating since we are ranged, maybe we should have HPS equal to the DPS of a single BW? Oh wait, still need an upgrade ...

Crode

11-10-2008, 11:20 PM

If 1 person attacks the healers they wont be healing anyone but themselves.

------------------------------------------------------------
I also have to disagree with 'focus fire is a good thing'. The game will come down to party of 6+ players focus firing one player after another. Picking off 1 player at a time. Especially with the assist targeting addons. No amount of healers can protect against that.

-Less focus fire the better. We already have the 100foot standoffs.

Lawlbringer

11-10-2008, 11:29 PM

In case you healers forgot, let me remind you:

You should not be able to heal through focus fire: that's the point of it. FF on anything but a tank should = a dead player. Presently, a pair of Runepriest's can outheal an entire group's worth of DPS.

In the current incarnation of the game you simply cannot win a scenario without healers. This is 100% unacceptable. A full DPS group should have a 50/50 chance of beating a healer-heavy group.

Thank goodness Mythic has some sense in them.

Edit: clarification.

1) You used "You healers". Not a smart choice of wording, so already you come off as mean and insensible (Blinded by meanness!)

2) That is true, depending on who they're healing. But no, 2 healers cannot outheal a group's worth of DPS on another squishy. Because DPS are expected to use HEALING debuffs, so 2 runepriests become equivalent to 1 without the healing debuff.

3) Scenarios and all group-based things should require healers. It's a staple in all MMORPGs (Good ones).

4) A full DPS group will not ever have a chance against a 30-50% Healer group. Because they will not be able to recover mid combat, thus, they cannot survive. Healers extend survivability. That's what they're meant to do.

This post was in an attempt to nullify what he has said. Basically, FOCUS HEALING should prevent FOCUS FIRING.

Things happen to run on a two-way street. And as stated before, this is why you take the fight to the healer. And it is also why WE and WH have cloak and 40%+ Healing Debuffs.

sterlingray

11-11-2008, 01:14 AM

Just putting in my 2c.

My wife and I duo alot. At T1 - T3 so far we see very few people to do PQ's with. Just a disclaimer to what our situations have been normally.

Now on test, she is not happy. For one her healing is less effective. She has always played a healer in every game we have ever played. That is her niche. She likes saving lives. She likes being the unsung hero. She puts up with the " HEAL HEAL HEAL " people well, and doesnt blink an eye when people complain about dying due to no heals when it was their fault for being idiots running into places they shouldnt be.

She doesnt play a healer to do damage. No one should. If you want to do damage, play a damage class plain and simple.

Also we tested on test, wrote some numbers down, then went to live and compared those numbers. On the same mobs she was doing an average of 30%-ish damage than on live server. Which makes no sense to me. And her heals were less effective.

Mythic needs to work on mastery lines I think. Let people who want to heal become much more effective via mastery, and those that want better DPS as a healer do the same.

Please dont make healers unable to do their job. Increasing damage dealers DPS and lowering heals makes for a bad combo.

And as for the person above. You say a full group of DPS should be able to have a 50/50 chance of winning a scenario without healers. That is flawed logic. Because if a full side of healers went against a full side of DPS. The healers would lose hands down.

Fippy Darkpaw

11-11-2008, 01:34 AM

Which means that healers will become more part-time healers and dps. Which could be all right, especially since Mythic especially siad they didn't want people to stand in the back and heal, heal, heal (if you've followed WAR's podcasts you'll know what I'm referring to).

Then again, healing should be useful, rather than a crutch one needs because one has not much else to bring to the party. So far, however, I feel it's more prudent to test the patch first before coming to final conclusions.. and to give feedback before it all goes live.

Exactly. RP, WP, Zealot, Dok, etc. heals MUST be effective BECAUSE THEY CANNOT DO ANYTHING ELSE. Healers cannot DPS and have no survivability. If PVP is question of who brings the most DPS, healing classes are obsolete.

If heals are not effective healing classes and specs may as well not even exist.

Fippy Darkpaw

11-11-2008, 01:37 AM

Presently, a pair of Runepriest's can outheal an entire group's worth of DPS..

Get out of T1/T2 and get back to us. In T4 any class, including tanks, implodes in 2 seconds under focus fire.

jhorry08

11-11-2008, 01:48 AM

I voted that I agree with the changes some what, because the idea behinds what they can accomplish with these changes is fine, but the current test patch implementation is NOT fine.

Heal over time spells simply had to be taken down a bit, and stretched out over a longer duration, freeing up more time to utilize other abilities.

But, they have not yet changed the other abilities, the cure system, or added in more ways for healers to Prevent damage via debuffs/buffs and wards, Sustain healing over a time as damage is happening via life tap healing and more "over time" healing that has to be focused on players (as opposed to drive-by hot spamming), or tools to handle Emergency situations (read: focus fire, WH/WE attacking a squishy)

Healers should have every tool necessary to counter the damage dealing capabilities of MDPS and RDPS, but they should have to coordinate with tanks and other healers for all their tools to be successful.

A MDPS beating away on any Ranged healer, or a RDPS focusing on a Melee-healer, should severly hamper the effectiveness of the healer, hence the strong need for tanks and additional healers with DIVERSIFIED healing potientials (aka, some focus more of prevention or maintaining a consistant heal per second rather than every healer trying to be a "big heal tosser," and not having the nessessary buffering capability to utilize these heals due to debuffs on allies, lack of time to execute the heals, and lack of debuffs on foes that limit their burn-damage capability)

Focus Fire isnt a problem if you have healers with tools to handle this. Short, 5 second durations wards with a 30 or 60 second reuse timers that absorb large amounts of damage, cures that can actually strip multiple debuffs OR damage based dots (read: a system in which the debuffs and damage over time abilities are seperated), buffs/debuffs that can limit the damage incoming on the target, and a healer or two focusing on constantly healing the target over time with lifetaps and hots, while a single healer can focus on the big-shot healing to actually heal the large amount of overflow damage that would still persist through all those buffers.

A well coordinated defense should be able to:

Use a tank to limit the incoming damage on the single target.

Use debuffs to limit the damage capabilities of the foes attacking the target.

Use cures to cure the target of critical debuffs such as -healing%, toughness, -armor ect.

Use healing-over time and Life tap healing to continually provide efficient, constant healing.

Use Restorative healing, the big heals, to actually heal up the excess of damage that have broken through the above defenses.

Use Emergency healing abilities to by time for all of the above to function.

This should be able to be accomplished by having 1 tank, and 3 healers. This combination should be able to help a single person survive the "assist train" of 8 people, if these 4 players are working as a coordinated team, and if each is "specialized" in a different area of healing, and if the tank is specialized in their Mastery that focuses on Defense and protection.

Some would think that this is excessive that 4 people could shut out the DPS of 8 focus firing, but you have to understand that you now have 4 people exclusively focused on keeping a single individual alive, if you were to divert to attacking the 3 healers, even if its just one of your 8 players, then you could cause their defense to crumble.

DPS, both ranged and melee, already have so many tools they can use to break through a defensive hold that the above situation could go either way. If they just acted like idiots and all used /assist and thought by throwing big numbers at a single target, and ignoring his supporting defense, would get the target dead, then they SHOULD lose.

If they are intellegent and start trying to dismantel the defense, then they should win. Root the tank or knock him back, try to silence the healer that is using the big heals or have someone start attacking him to interrupt him, steal AP from the healer using the Emergency heals, this will completely mess up his role in defense if he suddently cant pop-off that much needed life saving defense/heal at that critical moment, and if you focused on taking out the healer that is focusing on Prevention, and therefore curing all those critical debuffs, you could then easily heal debuff the target and burn faster than the healers could heal.

Healers and Tanks simply need more powerful tools for dealing with massive-assists on single targets.

FatherAnderson

11-11-2008, 01:51 AM

sterlingray

11-11-2008, 02:18 AM

Presently, a pair of Runepriest's can outheal an entire group's worth of DPS.

Why dont you just FF on the Runepriests? Hell I can take out any healer with my WL. I took out RP all the time when I played my marauder. I think maybe you need to try different tactics. If you send 1 DPS toon on each healer, or even 1 pet, they heal themsevles and not their group.

Kardek

11-11-2008, 07:15 AM

Perspective - Renown Rank 49 AM, Have Sentinel gear, working on Dark Promise suit.

With the hot nerf and buffing each sides Eng/Mag, SH/SW to BW/Sor levels time to kill
is going to go down a lot.

Healers wont really suffer so much in this patch as they will still hide at the back,
melee is going to learn what the term Prison Love is all about. Especially playing
in PUG games with healers of average skills.

PUG melee will roll to range or take a break. Epic fail.

Most people I know of when they play these pvp games want to be able to get into the
fight and contribute for a while. Sure everyone isnt super stars or will make the right
move in the right situation, they just want to go in an 'do stuff'.

Well I predict most pugs will have about 5 sec of doing stuff lol! Savour it

If anything, leaving changes as is I would say double peoples Wounds.

I feel dejavu when I see this change, its like the one that did a lot of harm to Guild
Wars. Remember how the beta of that was awesome, really long fun fights and then
they boosted dps and it was just spike fest? Talk about pug attrition!

Kyrontor

11-11-2008, 07:45 AM

I feel dejavu when I see this change, its like the one that did a lot of harm to Guild
Wars. Remember how the beta of that was awesome, really long fun fights and then
they boosted dps and it was just spike fest? Talk about pug attrition!

I wasn't playing Guild Wars back then but what i really appreciated in GW personally is that they really added another dimension to the tank/dps/heal gameplay of most MMOs out there - the interrupts and shutting down. Instead of going for the easy way trying to alter the amount of damage or healing, they added on top of that. A whole class was devoted into that - the Mesmer - giving another dimension into PvP. Plus quite some other classes got some interrupt/shutdown as well. At that point, when you successfully add another dimension on that classic trio, it doesn't really matter that much how much healing or damage you could have, when all of this healing/damage could be interrupted, shutdown or even backfire.
On WAR, the "utility" classes - if any - are really missing the point. Utility is Mesmer.

Guvna

11-11-2008, 08:08 AM

Healing in the game was in a good state. If the your team was well organized you could focus down a target no matter how much healing the other team had. Using timed attacks and KD/Silence and other skills you could shut down healing. So the game was not really a HPS/DPS type unless your fighting unorganized people.

To drop healing down is really sad esp when you increase the DPS across the board. the Time To Kill was pretty solid in this game, and our chance at keeping them alive was also good. With how this is turing out I will prob be playing my SH alt alot more than my shaman.

battleaxe

11-11-2008, 09:13 AM

There are 2 main problems with healers.

1) Healers control scenario outcome. If there are more healers on one side than another, the side with the healers typically wins. If the number of healers is equal (rare, since destruction doesn't have that many on my server), the team with the highest amount of healing (sort by healing) typically wins.

2) The healing archetype was sold a bill of goods. The hype around warhammer was that healers were going to be required to fight and actually do significant damage in order to be able to heal. This would have meant no healbotting babysitters. Obviously, this isn't the case for most healers. Healer damage is crap, so healer characters trying to DPS are shunned. This is what I believe has led to the lack of healers on the destruction side - very few people want to babysit the dps characters having all the destructive fun. Also, trying to PVE a character that can't fight its way out of a paperbag just plain slurps monkey genitalia.

Decreasing healing power isn't a bad idea, since it will level out the playing field somewhat. But the damage increase should more than compensate the healing loss.

Go back to the original idea that healing could only happen as a side effect of damage, similar to how the Disciple and a few of the dot healing spells work. Make the damage of their spells significant and worthwhile to cast. Make sure that healers are respected for their healing but more feared for their damage. Make sure healers can PVE in a relatively speedy fashion.

sterlingray

11-11-2008, 11:42 AM

*edited for content*

Bifelgur

11-11-2008, 12:05 PM

I think I see where they want to go. i know people might be feared by the incoming changes, but in the end, we must try to see want Mythics really wants.

If they want the healing classes to not be only heal bot, they need to give them a way to feel that their heals still change the outcome, while giving them tools to do something else helpful for their team.

If they want to buff their damage, give them huge big heal to choose a target and prolonge that life, so, choosing well might change the outcome of the fight. But if you put a long cast big heal, you need to put a cooldown on use to prevent big spamming.

If they do that, they need to give better utility to melee, because we can see that with less healing, melee will have an harder time to survive incoming damage. Either,boost wounds to melee classes or give them way to prevent incoming damage...

If it's the way Mythics wants to go, it might not be that bad, it just doesn't feel right on beta, because the others skills are not implemented with that mind I think. I would love to see healers as an offensive threat on the same time as a defensive threat. Same thing with the tank and DPS class.

I think, each class should be able to play a defensive or offensive part, but in different way, or with differents tools. That way, even if your class changes a little, you can still play offensive or defensive, whatever the situation needs. Everyone would be able to adapt, skills would be better than a good setup.

Even pug would be able to put out a good challenge to premade if people have some skills. just my two cents, if I was creating a pvp game, that's the goal I would be aiming, and I think Mythics is trying to aim for that, but that transition seem really awful for some classes.

EDIT : grammar correction, ps, I'm a french guy, sorry for mistakes.

calendor99

11-11-2008, 12:23 PM

Being from the EU, i wish i could get on and test this. I have never quite seen a nerf this big, and im kinda hoping its being blown out of proportion, but im thinking now maybe it is not. I REALLY dont want to have to make my Bright Wizard my main :(

battleaxe

11-11-2008, 12:23 PM

Can you imagine making a WP or AM do more dmg and having them still be great healers. Lets do it ! I would be a 1 man god !!!! DoK's can already solo heroes. Lets increase their damage so it takes them 10 mins instead of 20 mins !

/sarcasm off

With 1.5, WP/DoK are already good. No, they can't solo same level heroes. AM needs less healing, more damage.

Try this. Level a DoK and a Shaman to 20. Try killing a level 20 Champion starting at level 17. You'll find that a DoK can do it around 17-18 prepatch while a Shaman can't do it til somewhere after 22-23. Post patch, the DoK will still be able to do it at 18, but the Shaman won't be able to do it til 24 or higher. The Shaman just doesn't have the healing power nor damage output to compete in a 1v1 either before or with this patch, so many will just quit when their healing power is nerfed because it's the only thing keeping them alive long enough for someone else to help them out. If they had the ability to fight competitively, it would offset the healing nerf some.

Mecha

11-11-2008, 12:44 PM

*edited for content*

Faranan

11-11-2008, 01:03 PM

Sounds like its time to reroll
If such a little change is going to get you to switch to a different character, maybe you were never right for a WP anyhow, as it and DoK are one of the most complex characters to play well. Why not go play something easy to play, like a BW and leave the hard work to the professionals.

Sources

11-11-2008, 01:36 PM

*edited for content*

As nothing is permanent until released to live, you're right about that. But do you really think they'll simply reverse the whole thing.. the damage has been done, atleast in my opinion. :|

sterlingray

11-11-2008, 02:23 PM

No, they can't solo same level heroes. AM needs less healing, more damage.

Never said they could solo same lvl heroes. But they can solo blue con. If you think I am lying watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ko119RbCoY

My wife and I duoing a WL and AM cant duo a hero that is lvl 16 with our lvl 18 toons. And please refrain from calling us lame, or weak, or bad players. We play well.

Upping healing DPS is not the way to go. Nerfing their healing isnt either.

People play healers to HEAL. Let them do their job. Like I said before. If you want to be a smite healer make it via mastery tree, and let healers get stronger at healing the same way. Dont make them mediocre at both unless they choose that spec.

Drakos

11-11-2008, 02:42 PM

I voted disagree somewhat with the changes. I dont really mind the HoT nerfs as it does foster a lazy playstyle and was probably being abused to gain renown. As it stands though we really need a moderately strong single target heal on a 1 second or so timer to replace rune of mending(the direct + hot heal) as a quick burst heal to help keep someone up under moderate FF. I havent been on today, but the big heal was still the same as live yesterday on the PTS.

Semiraghe

11-11-2008, 03:05 PM

*edited for content*

Why nerf healing at all all then if the changes wont be permanent ?
Makes no sense at all.

Why break something even more before fixing it ?

Btw with the Hots nerfed there is absolutely NO way a zealot or runpriest or shaman or archmage can kill stuff in reasonable time.

Pareomortis

11-11-2008, 03:21 PM

The problem with mythic's healer/dpser vision is this, most of the players who do not have any access to meaningful self healing will resent the people who do because in their mind if you can heal you should be healing them. If they want to make thier vision a reality they need to remove the dependancy on a healing class in general. One way to accomplish is significantly lower the health restorative potion cooldown and/or introduce an out of combat bandage system like WOW.

Vilu

11-11-2008, 03:26 PM

I'm not gonna prove my credibility when I say I'm one of the best shaman on the server I'm on. Either way, I don't understand what all of the fuss is about. You guys are all spewing doom and gloom but the way I see it, I was OP (healed for insane amounts, and never die), and I just got even more OP with this patch. Healing was already easy.

My current playstyle now consists of:

1. hotting sorcs and melee before they engage
2. Using big heals (3s) for focus fire when I'm not being attacked
3. Using shields and aoe heals for focus fire while I am, all in the meanwhile keeping hots up on those being attacked. (and if the aoe heal isnt efficient at the time, I shield myself and big heal)

with the change to the big heal being 2.5s and half the interrupt, I imagine my life just got a ton easier. I already use the big heal a lot, now I can use it more! I don't see how this isn't a good thing. Who precasts the big heal? I doubt many of you do.

I rarely used the heal/hot to begin with, most good healers shouldn't because its horrible AP efficiency, this spell is actually my last resort. I think the problem is people expect to be able to keep a group of 6 up themselves, but every 6 man group should have 2 healers. 4 for 12, that sounds about the right balance.

You can say I must run against horrible groups that don't know how to focus healers. I would say you're wrong, I just know how to stay alive, and run with range dps that know when to root melee as i lead em through it.

What about DoK's and WP's? You know, we have no big heals, only HoTs outside of our group (can't go in melee past T2 without getting nuked down in 5 secs)

What about Zealots and RP's that don't have any points in their single target mastery tree? this means their 2.5 sec heal is 25 lvl.

Anyway, i voted "neutral" just to see the results, as i don't have had time to test the changes yet. Don't even know if EU players can get in PTS :P

Edit:
And yes i say you play against bad groups. Come back when you face a group of 3-5 DPS focus firing and try to say that your healing is OP. (even tough my SW alt is still in T1, me + 3 other SWs and rank 11 tanks died in 1-2 volleys of arrows (2-4 secs), can't see it being any different in higher tiers tough, not at least with 1.0.5)

focus fire of 4+ DPS classes = no healing will save the target. That's how it's currently, wont be any better after 1.0.5

Edit 2:
Only times i find healing "overpowered" is against crappy teams in T1/2. 77k healing on r18 WP, which outhealed over half of their DPS and all their healers. I was about the only healer so ofcourse people died when more than 1 people nuked same target (mainly melee who overextented or people who go solo...), but didn't happen too often tough :P

Drakos

11-11-2008, 03:55 PM

Why nerf healing at all all then if the changes wont be permanent ?
Makes no sense at all.

Why break something even more before fixing it ?

Btw with the Hots nerfed there is absolutely NO way a zealot or runpriest or shaman or archmage can kill stuff in reasonable time.

How did the Hot nerf influence a healers abilty to kill stuff in a reasonable time? In live the only way I can get my dps to reasonable level is with offensive tactics + INT gear + rune of burning. For pve this is just fine as mobs die plenty fast. For RvR I am in heal gear and tactics so I dont do much dps anyway.

Deeva

11-11-2008, 04:07 PM

They're bringing down the test server for 1.0.5 tweaks.

Unfortunately, they're just including everything they didn't get done the first time- reduced BW/Sorc crits, etc.

If anything, it just made healers worse- Funnel Essence isn't bugged anymore, Balanced Mending now correctly adds a penalty..the only redeeming factor is the 2.5s 'bigheal' only has a .5 second setback now.

I seriously hope that the big heal can make things viable, else I'm just lost.

FatherAnderson

11-11-2008, 04:29 PM

With 1.5, WP/DoK are already good. No, they can't solo same level heroes. AM needs less healing, more damage.

Try this. Level a DoK and a Shaman to 20. Try killing a level 20 Champion starting at level 17. You'll find that a DoK can do it around 17-18 prepatch while a Shaman can't do it til somewhere after 22-23. Post patch, the DoK will still be able to do it at 18, but the Shaman won't be able to do it til 24 or higher. The Shaman just doesn't have the healing power nor damage output to compete in a 1v1 either before or with this patch, so many will just quit when their healing power is nerfed because it's the only thing keeping them alive long enough for someone else to help them out. If they had the ability to fight competitively, it would offset the healing nerf some.

Honestly... stop citing lower level references as reasons classes are fine. If you aren't haven't played a class in T4 you have no business saying anything. Heck for your information tanks can do this too. However soloing a champion that does a static amount of sustained DPS, and dealing with massive spike damage in an out of group setting where you probably don't always have access to your melee to heal abilties are in no way the same.

Protein

11-11-2008, 05:07 PM

tolgon

11-11-2008, 05:13 PM

this WILL NOT go live, repeat will not. We simply won't take it, many will quit the game and others will reroll. either of which will be terrible for the game.
there will be huge consequences for letting this go live, it just simply cannot happen.
man you never know, but if it will i'll either quit or play a black guard till i drop dead from leveling all over again

Protein

11-11-2008, 05:28 PM

man you never know, but if it will i'll either quit or play a black guard till i drop dead from leveling all over again

well you might be right but I'm HOPING that they won't take the path blizz takes and pisses off their customers on purpose. This would be simply idiotic if they did it. Many accounts would be canceled, I can guarantee that.

Tiresias

11-11-2008, 05:56 PM

I strongly disagree with the changes. The absolute last thing this game needs is a nerf to healing. In fact the game needs to have a 50% increase in baseline strength and scaling granted to all healing spells.

Tier 4 is an absolute DPS race. No strategy beyond "pick a target and spam your highest-damage attack until it is dead" is really necessary. The role of a tank is comical at best because there is nothing a tank can do about the RDPS standing 100ft away from him and killing his friend. Heaven forbid that tank charge the lines, as he will spend the next 30 seconds rooted to the ground or flying through the air -- assuming he can bridge the gap at all given the amount of damage that will be poured into him on top of a healing debuff.

Healers in this game are in a very sad state. Who cares if thier hybrid heal was receiving too much of a stat boost? It still couldn't keep up with Tier 4 damage. Now not only will it lag further behind by their Core Ability HoT has received a 35% reduction in power.

Perhaps it won't matter, since a single 50% healing reduction or coordinated focus fire is all that is necessary to kill someone right now. I guess healers will go from "can't keep you alive!" to "really can't keep you alive!"

Pareomortis

11-11-2008, 06:00 PM

well you might be right but I'm HOPING that they won't take the path blizz takes and pisses off their customers on purpose. This would be simply idiotic if they did it. Many accounts would be canceled, I can guarantee that.

One can only hope that the game designers are not totally out of touch with the community as a whole. Unfortunately for Mythic they do not have the luxary of pissing off a majority of their community when the best game in town is still WOW.

Protein

11-11-2008, 06:44 PM

I guess I'm just a tad bit pissed off that every game I go to ends up being where the devs just make the stupidest decisions I've ever heard. I mean this is a nerf that hardly anyone would want. I'm sure even the BWs don't want healing nerfed because it means they will die quicker as well.

Healing lets dps do more dps and tanks defend longer. This nerf affects EVERYONE who will ever be healed, it is silly.

jhorry08

11-11-2008, 06:58 PM

I think most people here really are picking up on exactly what I've been saying in my posts:

Coordinated Burn Damage, the act of having multiple people apply heavy damage over a short time frame to single targets almost guarantees a kill in tier 3 and certainly in tier 4.

Healers and tanks currently do not have the tools necessary to handle these events.

This "nerf" to HOTs would be absolutely fine if they improved Healers and Tanks' capability to prevent Executions and focus fired Burn downs, because then other methods of fighting would be just as important as the current spike damage focus.

If they design it so that a few well coordinated tanks and healer can save that single person under heavy fire, then that makes assist trains a less viable tactic, because you would need people to take out and disable the defense, the healers and tanks, before you could simply steamroll the offensive, the MDPS and RDPS.

This would improve combat on the whole, slow down the TTK, and make kills more meaningful in general.

Hell, I would support a 30 second "always" respawn timer, if they would provided countermeasures for tanks and healers to severly impare the opposing offense's capability to kill allies rapidly, this would make each and every successful kill more important than they currently are.

Protein

11-11-2008, 08:56 PM

Gobbo FTW

11-11-2008, 09:49 PM

The current system is flawed. I've had scenarios where one BW just stands there next the wagon in spawn everyone focusing on him (not enough sorcs and tanks rushing the backlines) and you can barely see dent in his hp bar. A freaking BW!

But nerfing heals and adding so much damage at the same time sounds a bit over exaggerating. It seems Mythic don't want melees to be overpowered after nerfing CC but this does not sound promising either. But I wonder if people have tried to change tactics to compensate? Have people tried several tanks and melees rushing forward at the same time so focusing on one isn't very rewarding tactic as the other are closing in and hacking clothies in pieces? Or does it change anything? We 2nd class people here in Europe don't have access to PTS.

Scalpel

11-12-2008, 12:17 AM

I can only talk about healing from my own perspective, and I am a 40 Shaman.

My main HOT has been reduced per tick ... ok it lasts longer but I oculd have just re-applied the HOT.

My Main Heal the odd person here and there (GWFI) has been reduced not only on initial cast, but the 2nd HOT part too.

My DOT/HOT got reduced and buffed so didn't change.

My 13 Point Mork Rez Ability got the 1 real use for it removed, and still isn't 30 yards as stated.

My Mega Heal got its cast time reduced by 0.5 of a second.

How the hell the rediced 0.5 Second cast time on a mega heal that is serverly knocked back if I am damaged is meant to "balance out" the nerfs my main HOTs got is beyond me.

Shamans rely on their HOTs/Small Heal+HOts, becuase we have no instant heal ready normally. yeah the Waaagh system is all nice, but in most situations I don't have any Waaagh for healing ready.

If I am solo'ing or just PvE'ing in general all the above changes would not matter. However in RvR or PvE Raiding I like to Heal. To that point I have bery little else to do in a WB Raid than Heal people as I have full Willpower Gear, Healing Tactics, and a Full Mork Spec.

So I want to heal, and be a good healer, and these changes hinder me doing that.

Most of the time in a Raid (Either RvR or PvE) I'll be spot healing a few people with Gork 'll Fix It, or a HOT, OR main healing a Tank or someone taking massive damage. Its in these situations that my job as a healer just got mega hard. I have no Waaagh to use after the first heal, so I have to let my HOTS tick while I start casting the mega heals.

Reducing the ticks on the HOT's means a greater chance of something going wrong while I wait for my mega heal to tick.

Now ... ALL the above HOT reduction chnages would not be that bad if Willpower Actaully ADDED a decent amount to my HOT's .... but it doesn't. So unless Mythic see that not only does it make a Healers lfe hell without at least 1 decent HOT, or they need to fix Willpower contribution to HOTS.

Also lets not get me started on removing Hovercaster and such other add-on's ... I mean tracking GReen Bars is one thing, but having to select and cast is going to painfull rather than fun.

Drakos

11-12-2008, 01:41 AM

I've been playing on live like the changes are in place(ie minimal use of hots) and so far it is workable, but we could really use a quick cast(1-1.5 sec) direct heal to help out.

Faranan

11-12-2008, 07:35 AM

man you never know, but if it will i'll either quit or play a black guard till i drop dead from leveling all over again
You are kidding, right? Drop dead from leveling? This game is easy to level in, quite trivial. There were level 40's 5 days after the game went live. I can get to tier 4 in a month. I don't call that devistating. As a matter of fact, I'm concerned for the game life because people make it to level 40 to fast. They may quickly burn out on level 40 and quit the game shortly after that. If leveling took longer, people would value their character more because it took more work to build it up, and they would be much less willing to throw it away...

Igniferroque

11-12-2008, 08:19 AM

I tried the test server out the first day but was getting terrible performance in scenarios for one reason or another, so my experience there isn't extensive. I do think that the 2.5 second heal was in and that did help some but I don't think it will be enough if what everyone is saying about DPS is true.

-------------

With regards to my experience on the live servers, I can say without a doubt that a) hps is inadequate and b) healers have it rough.

In Serpent's Passage, I'm often healing a tanks because they tend to stand in place more thereby having fewer LOS issues. I'm trying to keep them alive but if they're standing against more than two people, I don't have a chance. As a rule, I never have access to my higher level morale abilities because I'm always using my one instant cast big heal whenever it comes off cooldown, which is not frequent enough. When people I'm healing go down, which is pretty often, it takes so long to rez them and for them to reappear that I'm often dead because the people who killed the person I was healing come for me next. They kill me and then they kill the poor guy I rez who comes to life at 10% health. I once got yelled at for rezzing a guy "into the middle of the pack of destruction". I whispered him back saying "they weren't surrounding me when I started the rez."

From what I understand, I have it better since my rez doesn't send me into shock like it appearently does for other some other classes.

As a contrasting story, I had one of the most enjoyable games of Serpent's Passage yesterday. This was because of the twelve Order in the scenario, we had one Witch Hunter. All the rest were Warrior-Priests, Archmages and Rune Priests. It was glorious! No one ever went down because they were in a party of nothing but healers. It must have been the most frustrating thing for Destruction because they couldn't do enough damage to bring any of us down (for long) and because they were so used to being able to solo healers.

So the punch line to this story, boys and girls, is to either make everyone healers or to buff our healing abilities (and, as a close second, survivability).

Gobbo FTW

11-12-2008, 08:56 AM

As a contrasting story, I had one of the most enjoyable games of Serpent's Passage yesterday. This was because of the twelve Order in the scenario, we had one Witch Hunter. All the rest were Warrior-Priests, Archmages and Rune Priests. It was glorious! No one ever went down because they were in a party of nothing but healers. It must have been the most frustrating thing for Destruction because they couldn't do enough damage to bring any of us down (for long) and because they were so used to being able to solo healers.

So the punch line to this story, boys and girls, is to either make everyone healers or to buff our healing abilities (and, as a close second, survivability).That is fun to you? to me that sounds boring as hell. You're a weird guy, imo. I like fights that are balanced and can end up either way.

To prevent that kind of thing happening healing debuffs have to be increased and healing range decreased. Then healing can be left without nerfs.

Catseye

11-12-2008, 09:06 AM

Previously, if someone was taking some hard damage, as a shaman, I could shield them and buy a little time to hot, quickheal/hot, then pop a group heal or morale heal,possibly saving someone from time to time.

You're not playing as a team, it's not about you being able to save someone right now, it's about 4 healers on a 12 man team stacking 8 hots on a target that ticks for 600 a tick.

That's 8x600=4800 every 3s for 9s. And it only takes 3s to stack 2 hots. They get 6s to cast direct heals/aoe heals/channeled heals or stack it on two others.

What kinda of burst dps does it take to bring someone down if that's the healing that happens? Yea.. you can't save someone from focus fire solo, but this isn't a solo game.

This is the reason HOT's are being nerfed and direct is being buffed. 3s to cast 2 hots, you can put these hots on 3 people in 9s. That's half a group, rinse, repeat. AOE heal sometimes, who needs to save anyone, when everyone has 4-6 hots constantly and when you notice focus fire, just start popping aoe heals.

These changes to healing are completely neccessary, because as gear increases, resist/toughness/armor/wounds increases and willpower increases, you'll see that nobody will die, because a stacked premade with 2 healers per group will have 4-6 hots on every single member of that group constantly. With morale/cooldown heals to prevent the focus fire death, or a instant res to recover from one.

I see a overwhelming majority voted that they strongly disagree with these changes, it's more a sign of player skill then the power of healing in this game.

I'm sure the dev-team saw what I'm seeing and this is why these changes made it in.

elmir

11-12-2008, 09:44 AM

You're not playing as a team, it's not about you being able to save someone right now, it's about 4 healers on a 12 man team stacking 8 hots on a target that ticks for 600 a tick.

That's 8x600=4800 every 3s for 9s. And it only takes 3s to stack 2 hots. They get 6s to cast direct heals/aoe heals/channeled heals or stack it on two others.

What kinda of burst dps does it take to bring someone down if that's the healing that happens? Yea.. you can't save someone from focus fire solo, but this isn't a solo game.

This is the reason HOT's are being nerfed and direct is being buffed. 3s to cast 2 hots, you can put these hots on 3 people in 9s. That's half a group, rinse, repeat. AOE heal sometimes, who needs to save anyone, when everyone has 4-6 hots constantly and when you notice focus fire, just start popping aoe heals.

These changes to healing are completely neccessary, because as gear increases, resist/toughness/armor/wounds increases and willpower increases, you'll see that nobody will die, because a stacked premade with 2 healers per group will have 4-6 hots on every single member of that group constantly. With morale/cooldown heals to prevent the focus fire death, or a instant res to recover from one.

I see a overwhelming majority voted that they strongly disagree with these changes, it's more a sign of player skill then the power of healing in this game.

I'm sure the dev-team saw what I'm seeing and this is why these changes made it in.

You seem to handily not mention the fact that 4 DoT spammers could just as easily do that in the other direction... Not to mention you usually get more DPS in a game then healers...

Upping all DoTs (yes, even the frigging BW DoTs, altough not by much...) and nerfing all the HoTs is completely justified then?

Oh, and I'm sure all the intell and bonus magic damage won't make the damage scale either...

Tizsa

11-12-2008, 09:56 AM

You're not playing as a team, it's not about you being able to save someone right now, it's about 4 healers on a 12 man team stacking 8 hots on a target that ticks for 600 a tick.

That's 8x600=4800 every 3s for 9s. And it only takes 3s to stack 2 hots. They get 6s to cast direct heals/aoe heals/channeled heals or stack it on two others.

What kinda of burst dps does it take to bring someone down if that's the healing that happens? Yea.. you can't save someone from focus fire solo, but this isn't a solo game.

This is the reason HOT's are being nerfed and direct is being buffed. 3s to cast 2 hots, you can put these hots on 3 people in 9s. That's half a group, rinse, repeat. AOE heal sometimes, who needs to save anyone, when everyone has 4-6 hots constantly and when you notice focus fire, just start popping aoe heals.

These changes to healing are completely neccessary, because as gear increases, resist/toughness/armor/wounds increases and willpower increases, you'll see that nobody will die, because a stacked premade with 2 healers per group will have 4-6 hots on every single member of that group constantly. With morale/cooldown heals to prevent the focus fire death, or a instant res to recover from one.

I see a overwhelming majority voted that they strongly disagree with these changes, it's more a sign of player skill then the power of healing in this game.

I'm sure the dev-team saw what I'm seeing and this is why these changes made it in.

You fail to mention that 2 bright wizards can easily rack up the dps with dots required to counteract the hps from those hots, and of course they will cut that hps in half with a debuff.
So 2 dps > 4 healers, yeah healers are really overpowered and need a nerf.

Catseye

11-12-2008, 10:12 AM

You seem to handily not mention the fact that 4 DoT spammers could just as easily do that in the other direction... Not to mention you usually get more DPS in a game then healers...

Upping all DoTs (yes, even the frigging BW DoTs, altough not by much...) and nerfing all the HoTs is completely justified then?

Oh, and I'm sure all the intell and bonus magic damage won't make the damage scale either...

Actually nobody's DOTS except for BW when it crits hits for 600, and did you not see the resist/wounds/toughness area... Damage is mitigated while healing is not except through cool down skills. So 30s to kill a target that can be raised in 3 makes it so nobody really dies.

In a even game, it's pretty much never that I get equal damage to a healer, I only get more damage then healers when we steam roll the other team. When the other team steamroll us, I do a ton of damage, but there's usually a healer on the other side with 500k.

They're fixing intelligence scaling for dots so they can keep up with heals, that's the change on the PTR isn't it.

The scenario that I talk about happens, and it makes for very low death games. It happens rarely right now because most people or organized enough to see it. How would you like to see a scenario with 0 death, 0 renown, 0 caps, 0 everything except damage and healing.

You'll see it once and then the teams will go to the exit when they see the other team in the scenario tab.

Catseye

11-12-2008, 10:14 AM

You fail to mention that 2 bright wizards can easily rack up the dps with dots required to counteract the hps from those hots, and of course they will cut that hps in half with a debuff.
So 2 dps > 4 healers, yeah healers are really overpowered and need a nerf.

This is false, 2 BW can not overload 4 healers on their own. Also those 2 BW will need a healer. I play a healer limited class, the healing nerf will also hurt my damage.

Tizsa

11-12-2008, 10:30 AM

This is false, 2 BW can not overload 4 healers on their own. Also those 2 BW will need a healer. I play a healer limited class, the healing nerf will also hurt my damage.

You said 4800 healing every 3 seconds, that's 1600hps cut that in half and you get 800hps.
Are you saying that two bright wizards can't do 400dps each?!

Catseye

11-12-2008, 10:48 AM

You said 4800 healing every 3 seconds, that's 1600hps cut that in half and you get 800hps.
Are you saying that two bright wizards can't do 400dps each?!

You're not taking account of aoe healing, combustion damage for the BW, along with a number of other things. You just took a small piece of what 4 healers can do in 3s and applyed it like it was the only thing they can do. That's just the maintanence healing, and they can sustain that kind of hot on 3 targets, with 6s left on one of the hots.

400 dps is hard to sustain with just DOTS. and They can only cut the healing in half for 10 every 30s, so really the target is ~ 500-600 dps, and this is on 1 target.

Even if the target dies due to a lucky crit chain, it's back up in 3s because of res.

To say that 2 bw can overload 4 healers is just wrong.

Kyrontor

11-12-2008, 11:27 AM

Apart from RvR, i am very concerned about PvE/dungeons myself. Anyone could provide some feedback? We have a pretty hard time already to heal on dungeons. On most MMOs out there you just need 1 healer for a 5-6 man party, but on WAR you already need 2 on Live. On paper, without any buff to tank's mitigation and with a nurf to healing, it seems we will be needing three healers on a 6man group to do a dungeon?

Alleviation

11-12-2008, 11:38 AM

With all due respect; as great as it can be to read about BW damage versus Healer HoTs and the circular yip-yapping, I'd personally prefer more information on 1.05 and Healing rather than 1.05 Healing meets BW.

This follow-up discussion is causing me to get a bit Lost in Dotslation.

Apart from RvR, i am very concerned about PvE/dungeons myself. Anyone could provide some feedback? We have a pretty hard time already to heal on dungeons. On most MMOs out there you just need 1 healer for a 5-6 man party, but on WAR you already need 2 on Live. On paper, without any buff to tank's mitigation and with a nurf to healing, it seems we will be needing three healers on a 6man group to do a dungeon?

I'd like more information on that as well since for as far as I've read (haven't gathered info on Zealot yet) healing is a secondary priority that can't really be tweaked with gear sets. I might be completely off though. :)

Tiresias

11-12-2008, 11:39 AM

This is false, 2 BW can not overload 4 healers on their own. Also those 2 BW will need a healer. I play a healer limited class, the healing nerf will also hurt my damage.

Actually, they can. Playing With Fire will reduce all healing done to their target by 50%, and with two of them it will have a 66% up-time. Furthermore, they have more DoTs than the healers have HoTs and they can still cast high-damage nukes while the DoTs are ticking. Without getting in theorycraft, those 4 healers will have a bear of a time keeping that one target up if those Bright Wizards are in a relatively safe location (i.e. a keep rampart), and we are talking about a 5v2 situation here.

Also, Bright Wizards do not need a personal healbot. They could instead think about their damage output and use Meltdown every so often -- it's there to prevent the Bright Wizard from killing themselves. The use of Searing Vitality can also help quite a bit when without a healer.

Bright Wizards as a class are not healer-limited. Bright Wizards as players often are, however.

Catseye

11-12-2008, 11:57 AM

Actually, they can. Playing With Fire (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8184) will reduce all healing done to their target by 50%, and with two of them it will have a 66% up-time. Furthermore, they have more DoTs than the healers have HoTs and they can still cast high-damage nukes while the DoTs are ticking. Without getting in theorycraft, those 4 healers will have a bear of a time keeping that one target up if those Bright Wizards are in a relatively safe location (i.e. a keep rampart), and we are talking about a 5v2 situation here.

All but one BW dot is on a 10s or 20s cooldown. There is no HOT cooldown.

If 4 healers have a "bear" of a time keeping up with 2 non-healed bright wizards, then those healers just suck.

Tizsa

11-12-2008, 12:23 PM

You're not taking account of aoe healing, combustion damage for the BW, along with a number of other things. You just took a small piece of what 4 healers can do in 3s and applyed it like it was the only thing they can do. That's just the maintanence healing, and they can sustain that kind of hot on 3 targets, with 6s left on one of the hots.

400 dps is hard to sustain with just DOTS. and They can only cut the healing in half for 10 every 30s, so really the target is ~ 500-600 dps, and this is on 1 target.

Even if the target dies due to a lucky crit chain, it's back up in 3s because of res.

To say that 2 bw can overload 4 healers is just wrong.

I was a bit unclear with my earlier posts so I'll try to clarify a bit.
You claim that I'm not taking account of everything, well neither are you so that's why I just focused on the small part. The bright wizards will need some healing yes but we are talking about team vs team so that point is moot in my opinion.
They can sustain those hots on 3 people yes, but if they do then it's more than just maintenance healing, they won't have time for aoe heals/dispels or anything else.
Two bright wizards will have 20 out of 30 seconds uptime on the healing debuff and will have time to cast other spells than just their dots. They will be able to do more than 400dps each thus they cancel out the hots from 4 healers in addition to doing some damage. They won't do enough damage to burst someone down unless they are lucky so you will need a third dps to do that, not arguing that fact.

Your point seemed to be that hots are overpowered (correct me if I'm wrong) and thus it was a good decison to nerf them.
My counterpoint is that they are not overpowered, in the scenario you described it only 2 bright wizards to counteract the hots from 4 healers. From my own experience, hots (even when stacked with other healers) are just not enough to keep a focused target up, you need your big heals for that.
Hots on a focused target are used as a buffer to give you enough time to cast a big heal, the nerf has made this buffer smaller and it remains to be seen if the shorter cast time on the big heal is enough to counter it. Sadly I can't get on the PTS to test it since I live in Europe...:(

Edit: And as for the resses, I would actually be glad to see a longer cd on them.

Catseye

11-12-2008, 12:42 PM

Your point seemed to be that hots are overpowered (correct me if I'm wrong) and thus it was a good decison to nerf them.
My counterpoint is that they are not overpowered, in the scenario you described it only 2 bright wizards to counteract the hots from 4 healers. From my own experience, hots (even when stacked with other healers) are just not enough to keep a focused target up, you need your big heals for that.
Hots on a focused target are used as a buffer to give you enough time to cast a big heal, the nerf has made this buffer smaller and it remains to be seen if the shorter cast time on the big heal is enough to counter it. Sadly I can't get on the PTS to test it since I live in Europe...:(

Edit: And as for the resses, I would actually be glad to see a longer cd on them.

HOTS are overpowered, they won't be 1.05, it's very easy to heal with HOTS and you can pre-cast them before combat begins. There are many games where healers get easily 400k healing. They've boosted the main heals of AM and RP, this is to make it so healing isn't hotting everyone you can 2x.

And the BW will be able to barely tickle the person getting the hots, while there are hots on the other 3 players which are actually unnecessary. They can sustain 8 hots on one player while having time to sustain 8 hots on another 2 players. Yea one person might get tickled if PWF was running but there's hots still on the other 3 which means it would actually take 4-5 dps to tickle all of the healers. Now we know this is not the case as the focus fire from multiple players can over any number of healers, we bring cc into it and the like and it becomes more balanced. Every healer has 2 strong HOTs, there is armor/toughness/resistance in the game which reduce damage a great amount. And 1k resistance of any type is not diffucult to attain. I can get 1k spirit or corp resistance by socketing 2-3 190 resist gems right now.. that's how easy it is.

Now heals may heal for less/3s but they're longer duration which means more time for healers to cast big heals. I think it changes the dynamics of the game, it will make healing more situational and less passive.

MDPS on squishies actually have a much bigger effect on healer overload, as their damage is more bursty. 2 MDPS on a squishy and you can almost guarantee it will die.

Lawlbringer

11-12-2008, 01:19 PM

HOTS are overpowered, they won't be 1.05, it's very easy to heal with HOTS and you can pre-cast them before combat begins. There are many games where healers get easily 400k healing. They've boosted the main heals of AM and RP, this is to make it so healing isn't hotting everyone you can 2x.

And the BW will be able to barely tickle the person getting the hots, while there are hots on the other 3 players which are actually unnecessary. They can sustain 8 hots on one player while having time to sustain 8 hots on another 2 players. Yea one person might get tickled if PWF was running but there's hots still on the other 3 which means it would actually take 4-5 dps to tickle all of the healers. Now we know this is not the case as the focus fire from multiple players can over any number of healers, we bring cc into it and the like and it becomes more balanced. Every healer has 2 strong HOTs, there is armor/toughness/resistance in the game which reduce damage a great amount. And 1k resistance of any type is not diffucult to attain. I can get 1k spirit or corp resistance by socketing 2-3 190 resist gems right now.. that's how easy it is.

Now heals may heal for less/3s but they're longer duration which means more time for healers to cast big heals. I think it changes the dynamics of the game, it will make healing more situational and less passive.

MDPS on squishies actually have a much bigger effect on healer overload, as their damage is more bursty. 2 MDPS on a squishy and you can almost guarantee it will die.

You come to a thread with a very strong opinion, that's fine.

But at the moment, all you're thinking about is yourself.

Furthermore, you refuse to give ANY morsel of ground, REFUSE to counter ANY valid points by DISPROVING them rather than using a general estimation which is the furthest thing from any actual number crunching. After reading every post and every counter post directed towards you, (Note: HoTs do NOT tick for 600) I believe that even this post will not deter you from vehemently believing you should drop things quicker.

The poll says it all, honestly.

The poll says it all.

Catseye

11-12-2008, 01:41 PM

The poll says it all, honestly.

The poll says it all.

The poll tells me how many bad healers there are.

Hots can certainly tick for 600 on certain classes with a good amount of toughness and healers with a lot of willpower.

The polls seem to reflect healers scared they will heal for less, it is a obvious nerf to healing.

You want to see what the BW's agreement to the crit nerf is. I bet you most of them will vote strongly disagree too.

You talk about proof and disproof in a video game and hidden mechanics and unexpressed reasons why the HOT nerfs is happening? It's pointless.

The facts are they want to nerf HOTS and make direct heals used more. This is what is currently on PTS.

With combat ressing avaliable to every healer, death and killing has to occur faster then the ressing/healing can compensate for any group to win and push forces back.

When I made my first post, I did not even bring up my class, but the normal whining about BW's made it into this post regardless, BW/Sorc are already being nerfed a good amount with our combustion change. Maybe healers won't need to heal as much.

WAR basically requires dps to kill faster then healers can heal, because if healers can keep the group/warband/zerg up indefinately, then we'll have alterac valley x10 24 hour games.

Edit: With a name like Lawlbringer and playing a class like the warrior priest, I speculate that you played a WOW Pally, which basically means your healing experience is tainted by a game where arena games can last 2 hours. I'm sorry, but I have better things to do in my life then have druids plink at each other for 2 hours.

Betelgeuse

11-12-2008, 02:05 PM

The poll tells me how many bad healers there are.

Hots can certainly tick for 600 on certain classes with a good amount of toughness and healers with a lot of willpower.

:lol:

This post is hilarious.

Vardar

11-12-2008, 02:37 PM

Vilu

11-12-2008, 02:59 PM

That's 8x600=4800 every 3s for 9s. And it only takes 3s to stack 2 hots. They get 6s to cast direct heals/aoe heals/channeled heals or stack it on two others.

What kinda of burst dps does it take to bring someone down if that's the healing that happens? Yea.. you can't save someone from focus fire solo, but this isn't a solo game.

This is the reason HOT's are being nerfed and direct is being buffed. 3s to cast 2 hots, you can put these hots on 3 people in 9s. That's half a group, rinse, repeat. AOE heal sometimes, who needs to save anyone, when everyone has 4-6 hots constantly and when you notice focus fire, just start popping aoe heals.

To get 4800 heal every 3s, you need 4 healers and it costs total of 340 AP every 9 secs (85 per healer).
To keep the hots on 3 people, it will cost a total of 1020 AP every 9 secs (255 AP per healer).

Now, 3 people "can't be killed"... what about the other 9 with no HoTs and no AP left on healers?

Average Sorc will crit ~1.2k Doombolt (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9470) and ~900 Gloomburst (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9472) + DoTs on target.
A rotation of Doombolt, Doombolt, Gloomburst you will net you a ~470 DPS, this is without any DoTs on your target.

HPS 1600 by 4 healers.
DPS 470 by 1 Sorc, 1880 by 4 Srocs.

4 Sorc vs. 4 HoTters, 2 abilitys vs. 2 abilitys and the dmg dealers win.
Now what if there is a -healing % debuff on target? You only need 2 sorcs to out dmg the heals. Where is my unkillable target now?

Mind me, i'm assuming that the sorcs crit on every hit as with 100% dark magic (50% crit) and no init. stacked on target (15-20% crit)

Or heck, lets say the enemy have 9 crappy dmg dealers with 190 dps each. Here we have 1710 DPS which should be able to kill any of the "godmode" -hotted targets.

Add in all the silences, stuns and healing debuffs we have in T4 and tell me how on earth even 4 healers can keep anyone alive under focus fire, on the live. Not to even talk about 1.0.5 with increased dmg on most of the abilitys.

Catseye

11-12-2008, 03:29 PM

Add in all the silences, stuns and healing debuffs we have in T4 and tell me how on earht even 4 healers can keep anyone alive under focus fire, on the live. Not to even talk about 1.0.5 with increased dmg on most of the abilitys.

The example I used was only there to highlight the power of HOTS, it is not the only tool healer use to keep people alive and never meant to represent the only skill they use. However, it is very powerful to be able to do that. DPS classes have cooldowns on our burst, we can't dps forever and ever either as our AP runs out as well. Both Healer and dps have AP regen abilities.

A well balanced group of dps, tanks and healers are very strong in tier 4. In SC against a good team, the number of kills that happen for both teams usually just get to 20-30. This means in a 15 minute game on average, each player only dies on average twice. So it's not a gib fest as it takes on average 30s for each player to die.

If one team is a bit better, the weaker team might only get 10 kills in a 15 minute game. 10 kills in 15 minutes is not a large amount of death.

I've had games where the death count got to 100 in 10 minutes, this is one death every 6 seconds. You can usually see in the screenshots the healers did very little healing. Maybe healing does have a huge effect on the number of people dying.

60-90 death in 10-15 minutes... there's a lot of life saving going on.

They didn't nerf all healing on healers, only a single healing spell.

They buffed the direct heal.

Why not compare the direct heal to the DD or a sorc. They look equal now don't they... 2.5s heal vs 3s doombolt.. I think the direct heal has a advantage. I remember getting AOE healed for a 2k crit. Also the direct heal just plain healed me for 1.2k, no crit...

Catseye

11-12-2008, 03:40 PM

WAR basically requires dps to kill faster then healers can heal, because if healers can keep the group/warband/zerg up indefinately, then we'll have alterac valley x10 24 hour games.

If this is true, then i will go back to the beginning paragraphs where u said there is some bad healers, if thats the case, then there is some bad players that cannot do dps fast enough to take out War healers, considering War healers are extremely weaker then WoW healers, If you cannot kill someone faster then they are getting healed for, maybe its time for a change of plan and use some strategy...hmm....how about going after the healers first?? what a great idea!!

What's your point? I have 0 problems killing. I'm just talking about group fights where whole teams stare at each other for 5 minutes and few dies. It's not bad at 5 minutes, but if that extends to 10 or 20 minutes or maybe a hour, it would be pretty much no fun to play.

I'm not talking about solo play or personal killing prowess, I could play a tank and get no kills and still talk about this. Tanks are extremely important because they can shift the lines of battle and and press the healers. Tanks + guard on MDPS is very strong disruption and combined they can survive a lot of focus fire and keep healers from healing far more effectively then simply "kill the healers". You don't need to kill a healer to shut them down, but you can shut them down and kill a squishy.

These are situational things and it doesn't work the same each and every time, sometimes you kill the soft dps first, other times you kill the healer first. It won't be the same every time.

elmir

11-12-2008, 03:48 PM

Add in all the silences, stuns and healing debuffs we have in T4 and tell me how on earth even 4 healers can keep anyone alive under focus fire, on the live. Not to even talk about 1.0.5 with increased dmg on most of the abilitys.

This is where you are spot on. You say toughness and resistances lowers the DPS output, HAH!

Everybody and their dog has a -50% healing debuff in this game, or a silence effect, or a knockdown,etc ...

It's not that hard to nuke through somebody, despite healing. And if you find yourself in a scenario with where 1/3 or more of it's members are healers, you are in an oddball scenario... Not to mention that the DPS of the healer heavy side will be pathetic as well.

Many scenarios are succesfull on the "balance" of archetypes.

PS: Catseye, could you point out on this doll where the bad zealot/shaman/DoK touched you? 600 healing on a HoT tick is nonsense...

Catseye

11-12-2008, 03:55 PM

PS: Catseye, could you point out on this doll where the bad zealot/shaman/DoK touched you? 600 healing on a HoT tick is nonsense...

Ok, it's not 600, it's more like 550....

I don't know what my healers do, but I like it.

Catseye

11-12-2008, 03:58 PM

This is where you are spot on. You say toughness and resistances lowers the DPS output, HAH!!

I don't know.. one of the BW in my guild rarely get crit for more then 900 on Hand of Ruin from lvl 40 sorc's. I think resistance has something to do with dps.. yes...

elmir

11-12-2008, 03:59 PM

Ok, it's not 600, it's more like 550....

I don't know what my healers do, but I like it.

Possibly die at the first fart a DPS class trows at them if they stack that much willpower at the expense of defensive stats. ;)

If that's the case... the solution to any healer issues might be easy.:D

jhorry08

11-12-2008, 04:43 PM

I think the solution is some what simple:

Examine which classes have access to the heavily utilitarian abilities, such as silences, heal debuffs, toughness debuffs, armor debuffs, and other such defense-reducing abilities.

These abilities should NOT fall in the hands of a class that is primarily focused on dealing as much damage as possible, be it sustainable, burst/execution, or mass-effect damage.

Sorcerers and Bright Wizards, for example, should not be able to debuff their own damage type, they should not have -healing debuffs, and any CC or otherwise "crippling" abilities should only serve for limited self preservation.

The different Mastery Paths for SC/BW: All balanced around delivering meaningful damage that can be heavily boosted if your allies support you with healing/debuffs and defend you.

Do you want to be able to deal fast damage in a short time, seeking for killing blows?

Do you want to overwhelm your target with a constant bombardment of damage?

Do you want to overwhelm your targeted foes with a constant assault on all of them?

And the other Mastery paths should follow this lead:

Engineer: This class is a damage support class, in that their offense should help improve the offense of their allies, while being solid in its own right.

Do you want to be able to deal strong single target damage in a short time from the farthest distance, focusing on decreasing the defenses of a single target towards physical attacks? This would be a better canidate than the BW for a -50% healing debuff, for example, as it serves to help other offensive people take down singles.

Do you want to have mobile damage at mid range that focuses on weakening multiple foe's magical resistances while having good multiple target damage? AE knockdowns and such make sense here, to help take down groups.

Do you want to have the best stationary offense in a close range setting, with a focus on deployment defensive/offensive tools?

Witch Hunter: since this class's entire purpose is to take down a single target, their mastery paths let them decide which targets they wish to excel in eliminating.

Do you want tools that help take down mdps/tanks?

Do you want tools that help take down healers?

Do you want tools that help take down rdps?

Archmage: this class is a healer, and should have healing options (or damage reducing options in regard to the third tree) in each tree so that EVERY spec is viable forplaying as a healer, just with different methods and strengths:

Do you want to heal large chunks of damage on single and group targets, and have fast casting emergency heals for crisis situations, and using your stored up HM to fuel a strategically placed offensive spell when needed?

Do you want to primarily focus on being offensive, using tap-based healing to constantly heal damage as its incoming on foes while striking your foes, using your HM to fuel some "AP cost reduced, faster casting" normal heals spells every so often as needed?

Do you want to cripple your foes and bolster your allies to prevent a sizable amount of damage, while gradually damaging your foes over time while tossing in heals and nukes as needed?

If they reduce the prevelence of specific abilities, burying them deeper in trees designed to "help" get the kill, rather than the ones that help you deal more personal damage, or if they give these abilities to classes who are offensively oriented but deal less damage (magus, engineer, white lion, marauder) than other classes (BW, Sc, WE, WH), then we would probably see a much more balanced offensive side of the game.

If you are one of the "top damage dealers," like the bw/sorc/we/wh, then you should be reliant on your allies buffs, debuffs, distractions, and protection, and healing to a degree, to really reach into the full potential of your class.

It has been called a "lock and key" system, where some classes have huge, devistating potiential (locks) but they need key classes that provide what they lack, such as debuffs that prevent healing, strong CC to keep them alive, distractions to buy them the time to get their job done, ect.. The Key classes have less personal potential, but their value really shines when they open the way for Lock classes to excel.

Its been done in the past and works well, take the eq1 Wizard and Magician for example, wizard had the strongest spells, and mages had a powerful resistence debuff to help the wizard (and mage) land their spells for full force, and the mage could utilize a pet to help keep the wizard alive, and could summon support items to also further improve the wizard. Same with an enchanter, as they would provide mana to the wizard and mage, while also decrease magic resistence (which helped the magician's debuff land more successfully), and they could increase the attack speed of their melee allies, while reducing the attack speed of their foes... which then improved the healers role... it goes on and on.

You have classes with less tools, but stronger potential, and classes with less maximum potential, but more tools to complement the other classes, or each class has its own unique set of tools that doesnt benefit them too terribly much, but certainly benefits other members.

Problems arise when you start giving classes their own Keys to unlock their potential, such as giving a BW a resistence debuff for his own damage type, or a -50% healing debuff, or more than adquate CC to defend himself. The only thing really lacking in the Immolation tree is the ability to self heal, and the the BW would be self-sufficient in their immolation tree lol...

I bet the developers wont correct these issues though, because that would be a lot of ability reworking, and from the recent changes, they seem to be against that, so we have to deal with the flawed system.

beerbar

11-12-2008, 05:16 PM

[quote=jhorry08;2578005]

If they are going with their old method, a healing should be able to heal 150% of the highest damage class if focusing on a single target.

That way if they are healing debuffed, the highest offensive target is at a 25% advantage, giving them an opportunity to kill their target even if its being focused healed by a single healer.[quote]

I think this is silly, why should one class be able to beat a two on one situation?

Time and time again we have this same issue come up, people want to dominate, if you DO dominate guess what! The people who constantly get pwned will either reroll to that same dominating class leaving you with a server of all rougues or worse leave you with an empty server.

Crode

11-12-2008, 06:44 PM

....Multiple posts from a non healer....

I dont know what your smoking but no amount of healers can save 1 person from being focus fired. People die faster than anyone can cast a 3 sec heal. Archmage HoT for me now does 150. woopdedoo

Nibien

11-12-2008, 09:23 PM

*edited for content*

Nibien

11-12-2008, 09:32 PM

*edited for content*

Catseye

11-13-2008, 12:29 AM

I dont know what your smoking but no amount of healers can save 1 person from being focus fired. People die faster than anyone can cast a 3 sec heal. Archmage HoT for me now does 150. woopdedoo

No single person should be able to stop the collaborative effort of multiple people all the time.

People are so used to overpower healers that can heal for much more then dps, it's become second nature to them. It just doesn't seem like this is the direction the devs want to go with this game.

And I have a tier 3 healer.. for all the people that say I'm a "non-healer". I have a toon of pretty much every archatype to learn the classes I'm going to be working with.

Saif Wardancer

11-13-2008, 01:02 AM

I have yet to see any single healer able to heal through a focus fire in the system as it is. I have no problem with a slight nerf to healers if that is the direction they are wanting to go. It's the radical increase to damage and decrease in healing that is one of the major squabbles.

If they do nerf healing, I feel they should improve their dps or debuffing abilities... or even quick buffs over time to fellow teammates instead of heals. If not what exactly is going to be the role of the current healing classes? I'm not gonna be a sidelines rez'r.

Paradim

11-13-2008, 01:05 AM

No single person should be able to stop the collaborative effort of multiple people all the time.

People are so used to overpower healers that can heal for much more then dps, it's become second nature to them. It just doesn't seem like this is the direction the devs want to go with this game.

And I have a tier 3 healer.. for all the people that say I'm a "non-healer". I have a toon of pretty much every archatype to learn the classes I'm going to be working with.

Good enjoy your heals then come because you can't kill as many people. Game should be about what team can stay alive the longest if you got no healers your screwed end of story. Migh as well just give shamans/am/rune/zealots more damage if thats how they want it to be. If patch goes thru you WILL get no heals and healers will be the only ones healing themselves while doing dps my shaman does fine wiht just dps/ did when I was full gork.

Kyrontor

11-13-2008, 02:09 AM

I remember getting AOE healed for a 2k crit. Also the direct heal just plain healed me for 1.2k, no crit...

Maybe cause you have high toughness?

steelball

11-13-2008, 03:17 AM

No single person should be able to stop the collaborative effort of multiple people all the time.

People are so used to overpower healers that can heal for much more then dps, it's become second nature to them. It just doesn't seem like this is the direction the devs want to go with this game.

And I have a tier 3 healer.. for all the people that say I'm a "non-healer". I have a toon of pretty much every archatype to learn the classes I'm going to be working with.

i agree an healer should not heal more than a bw. I thinq should heal equal to a bw.
If 3 bw assist a single target we need 3 healer that cure the same target.
For me is ok.

I dont know if new patch make an healer cure dps less than bw/sorc damage dps... if they are equal for me is ok.

Vilu

11-13-2008, 03:53 AM

DoKs and WPs got hit by most by these changes. Currently outside of group we heal people with HoTs. HoTs that got both nerfed by ~30% in term of HPS.

DoK testing results (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2594646&postcount=13)

So i can only do nothing but agree with the:

Basically I went from someone who could use restore essence as my heal people outside of my party to "If you're not one of the 5 in my group, sorry dude".

Ok we ARE group healers. All the group only salvation/DR abilitys should hint that. But pre 1.0.5 we can heal people "ok" outside of group. Wont save anyone under heavy DPS, but will buy more time to kill that solo DPSer before some one dies.

I have to test and see how it goes when final 1.0.5 goes to live, but so far it looks like Wrath spec for me after it.

jhorry08

11-13-2008, 05:28 AM

I think this is silly, why should one class be able to beat a two on one situation?

Time and time again we have this same issue come up, people want to dominate, if you DO dominate guess what! The people who constantly get pwned will either reroll to that same dominating class leaving you with a server of all rougues or worse leave you with an empty server.
That's the point though, the only reason a BW can really dominate in your above situation is that they have access to a healing debuff and resistance debuffs.

Healers should be balanced as healing for 50% more than highest damage class, which would be WH/WE for "highest burn", Immolation BW/Sorc for "highest sustained" and "highest sustained multiple target" for Conflageration Bw/Sorc.

The highest damage classes shouldnt have many debuffs or tools to help kill their targets, these should be distributed to other classes.

That way, in your above example, it would be most effective if a high damage dealer paired himself with a strong debuffer to attack the healers target, then the healer would have to worry about curing and healing all that damage, while the target being attacked would have to take some measure to defend himself as well or take out his attackers before they could kill him. Or the attacking pair could ignore that target and go for the healer, or split between the two.

Only a small 2 vs 2 example, but giving healers the innate advantage is required, because they have to react to damage coming in, while damage dealers have the first strike advantage of deciding where the damage will go.

Lawlbringer

11-13-2008, 07:56 AM

As I feared, one naysaying BW comes in and moans about his damage potential, and the topic at hand is veered off course.

Thanks.

Let's address the issue of healing!

Greyform

11-13-2008, 08:05 AM

Catseye

11-13-2008, 11:43 AM

i agree an healer should not heal more than a bw. I thinq should heal equal to a bw.
If 3 bw assist a single target we need 3 healer that cure the same target.
For me is ok.

I dont know if new patch make an healer cure dps less than bw/sorc damage dps... if they are equal for me is ok.

I agree a healer should be able to heal overall damage ~10% more then what I can do. This doesn't mean they should be able to save everyone, just like I can't kill everyone with help, I can actually barely kill any class with out healer or other dps help. Take a controlled enviroment like a scenario with relatively balanced teams. They should have total healing ~ 10% greater then me. Since you can only heal damage that's being done, the overall healing vs dps will likely be lower, but I'm only talking about top healing/damage and not the damage from tank classes/healing classes.

I see healers heal for 200-300k often in t4sc, while my damage output averages ~143k, with my recent max 350k. I think this is pretty balanced if not a bit in favor of healers.

Kyrontor

11-13-2008, 12:40 PM

It seems we have many opinions from people that are only doing scenarios. I haven't yet seen a single post that approves or justifies at least, the healing nurfs cause "Bastion Stairs was way too easy to heal" or anything like that.

Also, i understand that there are some (DPS) people that don't like healers at all cause of the way the current renown system works (from deaths) with healers being a parasite into it (no matter which side they heal), making the renown leveling slower for the whole server.

Aiiane

11-13-2008, 01:27 PM

Also, i understand that there are some (DPS) people that don't like healers at all cause of the way the current renown system works (from deaths) with healers being a parasite into it (no matter which side they heal), making the renown leveling slower for the whole server.

Er? If anything, it speeds it up due to the fact that more higher-RR healers = more possible targets that don't give 1 renown.

Kyrontor

11-13-2008, 02:08 PM

Er? If anything, it speeds it up due to the fact that more higher-RR healers = more possible targets that don't give 1 renown.

The main source of renown generation is kills. Healers limit the number of deaths. When you play a game that had a total lets say 10 deaths you 'll see low renown. This results in slower renown ranking up which results on the next fight with the same characters involved to less renown, etc.

Catseye

11-13-2008, 02:31 PM

The main source of renown generation is kills. Healers limit the number of deaths. When you play a game that had a total lets say 10 deaths you 'll see low renown. This results in slower renown ranking up which results on the next fight with the same characters involved to less renown, etc.

The best way to rank up renown at high RR is to do 50-100 objectives a day and not see a single opponent...

Because it's 1k a objective every 7 minutes and can get you a rank every 8 hours or so.

15 minute for 500 rp in the same scenario every time is mind numbing to some people, and only healers can get the big scenario renown.

I don't mind the renown system to work from kills... when I get 100 kills and 30 killing blows and I get 600 renown.. that's when I balk a bit.

Crode

11-13-2008, 02:34 PM

I agree a healer should be able to heal overall damage ~10% more then what I can do. This doesn't mean they should be able to save everyone, just like I can't kill everyone with help, I can actually barely kill any class with out healer or other dps help. Take a controlled enviroment like a scenario with relatively balanced teams. They should have total healing ~ 10% greater then me. Since you can only heal damage that's being done, the overall healing vs dps will likely be lower, but I'm only talking about top healing/damage and not the damage from tank classes/healing classes.

I see healers heal for 200-300k often in t4sc, while my damage output averages ~143k, with my recent max 350k. I think this is pretty balanced if not a bit in favor of healers.

Ive never seen a healer able to save everyone. We are busy healing 1 person and another player drops before you get your 3 sec heal off.

As for the totals... all kills where you do damage give you XP/renown. Not all healing is being rewarded. Things like healing the bauble carrier. Healing before someone dies.

Also remember that not all healers are spec healing. My archmage is debuff. I get nothing for casting debuffs except helping others kill easier.

Catseye

11-13-2008, 02:40 PM

Ive never seen a healer able to save everyone. We are busy healing 1 person and another player drops before you get your 3 sec heal off.

Hey, it happens... sometimes people get healed to full from 2% because I got silenced or my possible killing blow hits after a heal letting them live.

As for the totals... all kills where you do damage give you XP/renown. Not all healing is being rewarded. Things like healing the bauble carrier. Healing before someone dies.

Also remember that not all healers are spec healing. My archmage is debuff. I get nothing for casting debuffs except helping others kill easier.

Not all damage is rewarded either, especially when people don't die. I'm not the one complaining here, I think the changes are fine and should improve RVR and make healing more diverse.

If you're not healing spec healer, don't expect to outheal my dps?

jhorry08

11-13-2008, 02:55 PM

If you're not healing spec healer, don't expect to outheal my dps?

This is where the game fails. Horribly.

A healer should have options as to which spec he chooses, and each sped should effect healing in same way.

If he is a Vaul spec AM for example, his improved Preventive spells, such as debuffs, buffs, and wards, should impact the game enough for your statement to not be true.

I think each OFFENSIVE spec should have an equivalent DEFENSIVE spec, when comparing RDPS and MDPS with Tanks and Healers.

That is, if you are a BW / SORC who has focused on the damage over time line, you should not be able to put out enough burst damage to take someone down if they are focused on their burst damage healing, but in that same regard, they should have more trouble to keep up a person under your constant DOT assault.

Or a Preventive focused healer, for example, should be the best at curing, shielding, and lowering the offensive capabilities of the foes while improving the defensive capabilities of his allies enough to help the other healers and tanks out, even if he is not contributing as much burst or sustained healing personally.

They have the equation wrong when you look at the abilities of the Offensive side of the game compared to the tools that the defensive side of the game has to counter them.

Crode

11-13-2008, 02:58 PM

Hey, it happens... sometimes people get healed to full from 2% because I got silenced or my possible killing blow hits after a heal letting them live.

It happens what... 1 or 2%? :D

Not all damage is rewarded either, especially when people don't die. I'm not the one complaining here, I think the changes are fine and should improve RVR and make healing more diverse.

If you're not healing spec healer, don't expect to outheal my dps?

These changes are fine! If you are a BW. People die even faster now focus fire or not. Like I said earlier, the healing changes would be fine if all damage was cut to half right now. People seem to want to live longer than 3 seconds from reading others posts around here and on VN and I agree with them. I am not here to play counter strike. OOH head shot! :D

Catseye

11-13-2008, 03:10 PM

These changes are fine! If you are a BW. People die even faster now focus fire or not. Like I said earlier, the healing changes would be fine if all damage was cut to half right now. People seem to want to live longer than 3 seconds from reading others posts around here and on VN and I agree with them. I am not here to play counter strike. OOH head shot! :D

I live a lot longer then 3s with heals and I'm a squishy bright wizard. Sure if 5 people focus on me I die like a wet napkin... but so does most everyone other then a tank... But I have plenty of scenario I get 0 deaths.

I usually get ressed within 5s if we don't get pushed back...

Balance is not going to be found in pugs, and coordinated focus fire is only possible in non-pugs. Pugs < Premades...

Catseye

11-13-2008, 03:15 PM

This is where the game fails. Horribly.

A healer should have options as to which spec he chooses, and each sped should effect healing in same way.

If he is a Vaul spec AM for example, his improved Preventive spells, such as debuffs, buffs, and wards, should impact the game enough for your statement to not be true.

I think each OFFENSIVE spec should have an equivalent DEFENSIVE spec, when comparing RDPS and MDPS with Tanks and Healers.

That is, if you are a BW / SORC who has focused on the damage over time line, you should not be able to put out enough burst damage to take someone down if they are focused on their burst damage healing, but in that same regard, they should have more trouble to keep up a person under your constant DOT assault.

Or a Preventive focused healer, for example, should be the best at curing, shielding, and lowering the offensive capabilities of the foes while improving the defensive capabilities of his allies enough to help the other healers and tanks out, even if he is not contributing as much burst or sustained healing personally.

They have the equation wrong when you look at the abilities of the Offensive side of the game compared to the tools that the defensive side of the game has to counter them.

You know there are healers that has their lines more like this... but people complain a lot about those masteries... look up Rune Priest and Zealot healing complaint threads.. they all are like.. they all say they want a heal only line just like Shamans and Archmages...

AM and WP have healing lines, but those lines leave some points for other branches as well.

You get 26 points at RR40... There's plenty of points to be great at healing and decent at something else.

http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=3

Crode

11-13-2008, 03:27 PM

I live a lot longer then 3s with heals and I'm a squishy bright wizard. Sure if 5 people focus on me I die like a wet napkin... but so does most everyone other then a tank... But I have plenty of scenario I get 0 deaths.

I usually get ressed within 5s if we don't get pushed back...

Balance is not going to be found in pugs, and coordinated focus fire is only possible in non-pugs. Pugs < Premades...

Tanks die like this a lot too. People dying in less than 3 seconds is my entire point. So a party goes around picking off 1 person at a time with focus fire (ranged). Especially with such assist addons coming out. Nobody wants to step out first. So you have this nice standoff where nobody wants to enter the zone of death.

Catseye

11-13-2008, 03:35 PM

Tanks die like this a lot too. People dying in less than 3 seconds is my entire point. So a party goes around picking off 1 person at a time with focus fire (ranged). Especially with such assist addons coming out. Nobody wants to step out first. So you have this nice standoff where nobody wants to enter the zone of death.

I don't see how a tank with 50% block+x%parry/disrupt etc 1000 corp resist/elemental 10k health and 400 toughness is going to die in 3seconds... even with 5 people focusing.. They can pop shieldwall or morale for even more mit...

Crode

11-13-2008, 03:42 PM

Your saying its possible for 1 tank to run out in front and make it to the enemy front line without dying? If only that were possible. I am referring to the PTS not Live.

Catseye

11-13-2008, 03:47 PM

Your saying its possible for 1 tank to run out in front and make it to the enemy front line without dying? If only that were possible. I am referring to the PTS not Live.

Depends on if the tank's getting heals, using a shield or two hand weapon and gear/tactics/spec.

if he's being focused by 12 people, maybe he'll die in 3 seconds, but that's at least 5 blocks from his shield on the attacks, but focused by 5... it'll be more then 3 seconds...

You're just exaggerating...

A black orc can survive more then 15s in a lot of focus fire, without any heals right now..

Semiraghe

11-13-2008, 06:05 PM

[edited - rude]

Paxsanarion

11-13-2008, 06:28 PM

As far as end game RvR goes, it seems to me it would be more satisfying to have truly epic long lasting (less DPS, especially ranged DPS and more healing) battles with all the classes involved intimately rather than higher DPS across the board and less healing. The goal should be everyone feels useful and effective regardless of the class they choose to play. Battles should not be reduced to ranged DPS stand-offs between a few classes....in my opinion:)

I enjoy playing my Runepriest and contributing to the cause as much as I enjoy playing my Swordmaster. I know tanks have thier issues in RvR as far as CC and feeling effective in thier role but I did not expect any sort of healing nerf.....I expected the opposite I suppose.....more healing. There should be a way for all classes to fullfill thier roles in PvE and RvR......*takes off rose-colored glasses* :)

Stormblazer

11-13-2008, 11:30 PM

Hey, it happens... sometimes people get healed to full from 2% because I got silenced or my possible killing blow hits after a heal letting them live.

Not all damage is rewarded either, especially when people don't die. I'm not the one complaining here, I think the changes are fine and should improve RVR and make healing more diverse.

If you're not healing spec healer, don't expect to outheal my dps?
Actually, I'm of the mind that the changes will make healing much less diverse. Who in their right mind would use the hybrid HoT after it's ultra-nerf for example? Even on live it's only worth using as an emergency due to the high AP cost, on test it's not worth anything at all.
HoTs will be cast less often for less effect, and spamming direct casted heal all day long will be what the game turns into for ranged healers. No thanks, I like healing being diverse and interesting the way it is now.

Leanthral

11-14-2008, 03:02 AM

ok, i haven't read the entire discussion because i'm lazy, infact i read only a few posts, but anyways, here's my 2 cents..

I find it to be a positive thing, but i do agree that i think they might have over done the nurfing part (the amouint of healing per cast). I like it because it creates a more unstable enviornment and tanks become a bit easier to kill, as well as healers. One on one, it's practically impossible to kill healers unless u are a high dps or the right spec which not everyone will always be. But anyways, it creates more deaths because right now i see too many people so close to dying then they pop one cc and 2 seconds later they are full health, witch is a bit of a joke. I find it'll have a negitive impact in pve tho when it comes to healing tanks and such vs boss fights because the damage the bosses do is a joke. I think there's probably a better solution to this than just bodly nurfing the amount of healing healers do, but because i'm not a healer myself, i don't know all the details..

so, i'm kind of all over the place in trying to get my message across, i don't know how to word it really because i find positive things in it and negitive, but i can't find a way to put it into words... I know every healer will disagree with me because ur the healer, but i'm trying to look at it from a different angle. I haven't been on the PTS a whole lot, but i see what mythic is attempting to do, but i think they need to look at it again for sure and come out with a better solution.

this is probably one of my worst posts haha... anyways, this thread is so heavily healer influenced :P lol. I'm not taking sides, but i'm not agreeing with everything said about this being super bad.

anywho, cheers!

Crode

11-14-2008, 03:13 AM

Naa your post is just fine. Its not full of ranting/bashing and is easy to read. :D

I just want to say I play an IB just as much as an Archmage and as an AM I only do healing half the time. Reducing the healing does not really bother all of us, but along with the increased damage to nearly all classes, its going in a real bad direction.

Also remember that those same healers will be less effective in healing any melee character so you will be dying more often too.

Marsares

11-14-2008, 04:50 AM

DPS is huge in comparison to prepatch. BW Sorc seems about the same, whereas sh/sw are now on par with those classes. A quick side note, it still seems melee is short shafted overall due to CC.

Let's not go overboard please. My alt is an SW and whilst most of their skills got boosted, extensive testing has shown that they all got marginally boosted and some in reality didn't get boosted. In short: the changes to them are neglible. The only worthwhile change is that BAL now adds to your STR when switch to Assault stance, making it a more viable melee toon. That's all. And even then it's only your +BAL, not your main BAL that's derived from your level.

I can't talk for SH, but I understood they got more significant buffs. Even then, their main buff on the Plink! skill will be downgraded in the eventual patch I understood.

So, yes, both got buffed, but in reality their buffs aren't that meaningful. SW still relies on a very tricky combination of skills, morales and tactics to reach high levels of spike damage, and the cooldowns mean they can only do that once every 1-2 minutes and then rely on getting crits in order to reach those levels.

There's a lot of misinformation floating about clearly...

Having said that, I do disagree wholeheartedly with the healng nerf and think Mythic are making a big mistake here. After the renown nerf (which got somewhat buffed since then) and the generally lack of love for healers, I've for the moment parked my AM alt. I didn't want to healbot, but the mechanics leave me no other option and now we get another kick in the groin since AM's rely on HOT's and they all got nerfed, whilst our AP regen tactics still don't work. Therefore, our HoT's can keep people ticking over yet we're still total AP hogs and can't cast enough direct heals to keep them going either. Fail.

Catseye

11-14-2008, 09:01 AM

Remember the class that most people are really complaining about took at least a 5-10% hit to total damage. And 15-20% to our AE/Direct(burst) damage lines with the nerf to combustion.

I'm glad Squigs/SW and etc got buffed, they needed something to make their class more popular. I hope Magus and Engineers won't feel like they're just their for their suck.

As far as MDPS and Tanks, these are harder classes to manage then RPDS, but they are pretty much brutal in the hands of good players. Tanks are the line changers and without tanks, my kills are petty much meaningless. With tanks who can be in the back lines without dying and guarding MDPS who can be ripping up the softies, they are the setup for the RPDS artillary.

My main alts are a tank and healer, and I feel in no ways underpowered or not survivable. My ironbreaker is simply brutal in tor right now, and I almost never die except carrying the bauble. With a shield 6k health and a good healer behind me, I can reduce 1-2 healer's healing to negligible. That allows the RPDS and MDPS around me to rip apart a team. Yea when I don't get healing, it really really sucks, but one healer who keeps me up will shift the balance of a game.

I want to address pve comments, because it's important. I think the boost to boon will help address the HOT hps downgrade. The stuff in Lost Vale hits for high burst and a buff to Boon will make it much easier to heal some encounters. AOE healing can be used in place of HOTS for AOE damage.

For PVE HOTS are like gravy on the steak and potatos that's AOE Healing and Direct heal.

Lawlbringer

11-14-2008, 09:30 AM

blackleaf

11-14-2008, 09:53 AM

I'd vote we buff Bws more so everyone will quit even faster. It was hard enough to keep anyone alive before the patch, and its going to be worse, much worse after the patch. With all the "tab-dots-dots and more dots", goodluck casting 3s, or attempt to remove the debuff once every 5 second.

Well, there is something that may help, decrease the timer on our remove debuff. Or remove more debuff each time, that may help the nerf.

Catseye

11-14-2008, 10:42 AM

I quietly plee for the Bright Wizard who is incessantly posting in this thread to just stop.

We get the point. You think it's a good thing. That doesn't mean you go and respond to every single post that disfavors the nerf.

You've already stated your opinion, so please, just respect the opinions of others.

And yes, that goes for the other people who are egging him on.

Most of my posts I try to be informative rather then saying something and not backing it up. A lot of people talk about how they "feel" ineffective, or how they die to cc in Rvr or are focus fired to death in 3seconds. These experiences are not objective nor are they in anyway substantive. I try to talk about tactics, survivability skills and the like.

I might play a Bright Wizard, I'm pretty sure I play warrior priest better then you too..

PinkysBrain

11-14-2008, 11:39 AM

I might play a Bright Wizard, I'm pretty sure I play warrior priest better then you too..
Yes ... but you don't because standing in the back alternating between supplication and touch of the divine is no fun at all, which is what a "good" (if you want to win) WP will be doing most of the time.

Catseye

11-14-2008, 12:10 PM

Yes ... but you don't because standing in the back alternating between supplication and touch of the divine is no fun at all, which is what a "good" (if you want to win) WP will be doing most of the time.

I enjoy heal botting, and I use smite to build up at least half of my fury. Also Divine assault is my people saving skill and it's pretty good at it. I can't really use that in the back lines.

I don't stand in the back, I stand in the middle between the front and the back. Warrior priest is built to be a mid line healer. I hope to get a chance to play my WP more, but the reason I've been playing my BW has more to do with PVE then PVP. I quit my BW a bit ago for a week because renown grind was just getting stupid.

I spend most of my time healing because that's how I gear my noob and spec, but I still melee quite a bit with Divine Assault. I play a healer archetype so I assume I will be healing 80% of the time.. cc 10%, dps 10%. If I had to play a RP or AM I think I would be bored out of my mind tho.

Wrektem

11-14-2008, 02:12 PM

Is that DoT's weren't nerfed. IMO the single shot burst damage or channeled skills could have been buffed.

UGH just another person screaming nerf? Not so. I think DoT nerfs may be offset by other skills.

The reason I'm not a fan of increased DoT damage is the damage done after you've killed your opponent. The dead enemy doesn't gain exp, unless you consider a scenario score in instances like MT. so the benefit is small.

It also clouds who truly won the skirmish since classes with DoT effects will often suffer lower survival rates in duels but OP damage (even if they die) in larger battles.
As someone whose main character can spec into a line of DoT's, I'd rather be alive for my kills than dead and simply knowing a stalemate was objective because the WH couldn't heal himself and died 5 seconds later.

In larger battles, this also puts additional strain on healers (my 2ndary is a DoK) who essentially end up healing through damage dealt by someone who is already dead and not participating so much mitigating damage dealt by the living.

Jadarok

11-14-2008, 02:13 PM

I haven't been able to find out how "bad" it is, because there is never enough people on the PTS when I check it out to test PvP.

Even if it is "bad" for healing right now, I think they are going in the right direction. A team heavy on healing can just fire and forgot HoTs on the whole team negating most damage unless you are an orginized focus firing group. As a Magus it was always annoying to find my DoTs obliterated by HoTs.

Making HoTs lets potent and the "big heals" easier to cast is a good way to go. Perhaps the will un-nerf HoTs sinces DoTs seem to have gotten an overall buff. We shall see. That's why I voted "I somewhat agree."

PinkysBrain

11-14-2008, 02:29 PM

Also Divine assault is my people saving skill and it's pretty good at it. I can't really use that in the back lines.
So the exact moment someone needs saving you are finding a squishy target (mid-line) and that big enough lul in DoTs and AoEs which actually lets you get this heal off for more than a single tick? I must admit I lack the reality distortion field to pull this off most of the time :/

Catseye

11-14-2008, 03:55 PM

So the exact moment someone needs saving you are finding a squishy target (mid-line) and that big enough lul in DoTs and AoEs which actually lets you get this heal off for more than a single tick? I must admit I lack the reality distortion field to pull this off most of the time :/

I usually use this when on a melee that's charged/stealthed to where I am or a squig that's close. It's a 3s channel that doesn't get affected when I move, you can be sure I get 2 ticks off of it a lot of the time and it ticks for about 250.

It's a hard spell to cast as you have to select a defensive target and then find a target and then use divine assault. I usually cast a HOT on the target via Squared and Ishealbot and then find a melee target and then channel Divine Assault. I follow up divine assault with rank 1 morale since I'm only in T2 as my WP, this can usually do a lot to keep a target up. I'm sure I'll get better at WP as I get to tier 4. If they died to focus fire despite my actions, it's not really my fault they died, I can't save someone from 5 players, maybe 2-3 max. I need help from others to do that..

Crode

11-14-2008, 08:07 PM

First of all you are not the only good player here. This isnt an e-peen contest. Ive played many classes though out the beta as many others have. Every character will find themselves dying quicker and even more with these changes. Focus fire is even more important and if it wasn't survivable before (by tanks especially) its definitely not survivable now. Combat is way too short (TTK), with even less strategy and time to react or counteract now. Its undeniable that this patch is even less balanced. It cannot go to the Live server in its current state. ~81.5% don't think these changes are good and they are not all healers.

Kyrontor

11-15-2008, 07:36 AM

Lawlbringer

11-15-2008, 07:52 AM

I'm sorry Catseye, because apparently, the polls beg to differ.

It is also that kind of stuck up attitude "..I probably play a better Warrior Priest than you" or something along those lines, that makes me even care LESS.

What do you and the remote possibility of you actually being better than me (Other than that being a simple off-handed statement) have to do with the actual healing nerf?

I can make the same claim about being a better Bright Wizard than you, but that would do ABSOLUTELY nothing to further this thread. And in summation, all you post is not SIMPLY informative, lest you think informing that you're 'superior' to me has anything to do with the matter at hand.

Null and void. That is what your opinion has become to me.

Browncoat-WHA

11-15-2008, 09:08 AM

Remember that we have a zero tolerance policy on this forum. That means instant suspensions for what is considered forum rules violations. So let's agree to disagree, yes?

RideTheWalrus

11-15-2008, 11:25 AM

Buffing non-BW/Sorc RDPS should have been enough to offset healing in it's current state. There is no need for such a crippling nerf to healing.

Lawlbringer

11-15-2008, 12:08 PM

Remember that we have a zero tolerance policy on this forum. That means instant suspensions for what is considered forum rules violations. So let's agree to disagree, yes?

My apologies.

Now, the matter at hand, if anything, should be solved by letting DoTs settle in first and see what should be done with HoTs afterwards.

This means that we're walking down 2 roads at once, when we should only take one to see how it settles in PvE and PvP.

If HoTs still seem to outweigh DoTs, nerf them, if HoTs are overcome by DoTs too easily, buff them.

It's as simple as that. But the way things stand at the moment, Mythic is taking TWO aggressive actions.

Fiontar

11-15-2008, 03:43 PM

I didn't vote in the poll, because it can't allow me to express my opinion on the changes.

I'm fine with pretty much all the changes, except for the nerfs to the HoTs.

I think they should go live with everything except for the HoT nerfs. If healers are then proved to be overpowered, they can always adjust the HoTs later. If they are still underpowered, then more buffs would be in order.

I'd caution though that the problem with healers has been the way they scale. They are fine in Tier 1 and Tier 2 and even one superb healer can make a huge difference. In Tier 3 and Tier 4, even four superb healers in a scenario can do nothing to counteract a large burst DPS advantage on the other side.

The decrease in the benefit of Willpower on HoTs in 1.05 just makes the scaling worse, rather than better.

Drop the HoT nerfs and improve the Willpower coefficient for HoTs and I'd be happy with the other changes.

Crode

11-15-2008, 06:03 PM

Stormblazer

11-15-2008, 07:37 PM

The HoT is pretty much what this thread and poll is about. Other than the 2.5s direct heal cast.
Ironically, even the 2.5s direct heal is 10% slower than my direct heal on live due to Master Rune of speed being broken on test. As upset as I am with the intentional changes in 1.0.5 (and that's an understatement), I'm at least confident that MRoS will be fixed before it goes live (it works fine on live, it's only broken on test).

tolgon

11-15-2008, 07:43 PM

id rather go to AoC and see how ymir's pass is then play my WORTHLESS(in tier4) post-patch healer.... infact I might install GW again so i can have some fun balanced PvP as my monk.

me considering this option should be enough for mythic to realize that what they are doing is nothing but wrong, because I'm sure that I'm not the only one considering different options right now.

but I'm afraid they have both their eyes and ears closed when it's our turn, the community's turn, to speak.... so we can just hope that they make some changes before actually implementing this patch on Tuesday.

tanji

11-16-2008, 12:08 AM

Stormblazer

11-16-2008, 02:52 AM

I know I'll be shelving my healer if not the game if this patch goes live. I've played extensively on test with both sets of changes and its just not worth it nor entertaining to play a healer the way the game is headed currently.
Same here - though shelving Mir will make a lot of people upset, I get spammed with invites everytime I log on as it is lol.
However, I play to have fun. Healing post-patch is awful and very frustrating. If Mythic lets these nerfs go live, their crippling their game if not shooting themselves in the face. Healers are an essential part of combat (so are tanks for that matter, and you can bet IBs are going to be a lot rare next patch too).

Next patch, there's going to be a LOT fewer healers, and those few that are there are going to be gimped by the nerfs.

Moorhound

11-16-2008, 09:03 AM

tolgon

11-16-2008, 09:24 AM

melee shafted
healing shafted

WP + DoK = totally shafted

honestly, im having a hard time understanding why they can rationalize increasing dps clear across the board and nerfing healing clear across the board too.

pre- 1.05, already healers are RARE.

do they want to make them EXTINCT?

Moor
im getting more and more upset the closer we get to this 'balance' patch, i guess ill take a break to see how thing turn out (still got playtime till dec 24th.... had good hopes in mythic)

Kurugi

11-16-2008, 09:57 AM

Next patch, there's going to be a LOT fewer healers, and those few that are there are going to be gimped by the nerfs.

I've gotten on the PTS. If anything I feel more able as a healer than on live. Why? Because I'm going along with the changes. If you go on the PTS and either try to heal how you use to by doing nothing but HoT people up, or if you intentionally do nothing but HoT people to exaggerate how bad the changes are you WILL be disappointed.

However, I've found that the big point of 1.05 is to steer the focus of healing away from HoTs and more into direct heals, so what did I do? I tried utilizing RoResto more instead of just mindlessly stacking RoRegen and RoM on everybody, and I noticed 2 things.

1: My overall healing output either remained equal or increased.

2: I actually found that I had more instances where I was actually able to save people. Not just sustain them but actually keep them from dieing.

So what I'm left with is this. Every single person, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has been screaming till they are blue in the face about these nerfs has not even attempted to try and make it work. They just shriveled up in a fetal position sobbing and begging for everything to go back the way it was, and you know what? I'm glad all these people will be rerolling or leaving. Perhaps then we can shake off some of the negativity infesting this forum...

Stormblazer

11-16-2008, 11:59 AM

I've gotten on the PTS. If anything I feel more able as a healer than on live. Why? Because I'm going along with the changes. If you go on the PTS and either try to heal how you use to by doing nothing but HoT people up, or if you intentionally do nothing but HoT people to exaggerate how bad the changes are you WILL be disappointed.

However, I've found that the big point of 1.05 is to steer the focus of healing away from HoTs and more into direct heals, so what did I do? I tried utilizing RoResto more instead of just mindlessly stacking RoRegen and RoM on everybody, and I noticed 2 things.

1: My overall healing output either remained equal or increased.

2: I actually found that I had more instances where I was actually able to save people. Not just sustain them but actually keep them from dieing.

So what I'm left with is this. Every single person, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has been screaming till they are blue in the face about these nerfs has not even attempted to try and make it work. They just shriveled up in a fetal position sobbing and begging for everything to go back the way it was, and you know what? I'm glad all these people will be rerolling or leaving. Perhaps then we can shake off some of the negativity infesting this forum...
Actually, I never tried endlessly stacking RoRegen and RoM on everyone. I've not played like that since late T2 (before I had more abilities to work with). It was never as effective as say, Master Rune of Speed + diverse use of HoTs and Rune of Restoration, the group heal, and Focused Mind.
Or, now that I'm higher, Grimnir with a focus on mass healing/protection is pretty handy too.
I've always made prolific use of Rune of Restoration on live with great results, or prolific use of group heals with Grimnir to great effect.
Doesn't change that RoM is virtually useless now even for valaya spec, and that the HoT is much weakened, and the nerfs were uncalled for.

YourEcstasy

11-16-2008, 12:06 PM

Mythic hates Healers )= thats a fact.
Otherwise tell me why they Boost the dmg and nerf healers .. it looks like a massive massacre game to me now. If this goes live ofcourse (wich sadly i think it will)
I also dont get why they doing this :/ they will give hard, hard, hard time to healers.
And, order will loose kinda a lot of IBs also, beside -a lot- of healers in both order and destro.
And lets add that few players just gonna quit instead of re-rolling other careers, this will make servers even more empty. <- and this is what worries me anyway.. (thanks to 332736236 servers we have instead of just half of them)
This patch is kinda.. i dunno..
Personally ill just keep playin the healers anyway, but sure it will be different. :/

Catseye

11-16-2008, 04:43 PM

Nice to get feedback about healing from a player that rarely ever got healed cause he solos: http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156804&page=2 (scroll down)

Its definitely clear now why you hate the other realm's healers and you don't give a damn about your healers...

I love my healers, and I feel I get tons of heals each and every game I'm in. I haven't soloed since I hit 40.

Beside that, healers are the most popular class to solo scenario currently. They can get 5k-10k renown doing this. Maybe they should nerf healer renown again back to the previous levels?

And if you look at the end of that post, it was me talking about me playing my tank or healer... and healing solo Bright Wizards... I get good renown that way.

Catseye

11-16-2008, 04:49 PM

I've gotten on the PTS. If anything I feel more able as a healer than on live. Why? Because I'm going along with the changes. If you go on the PTS and either try to heal how you use to by doing nothing but HoT people up, or if you intentionally do nothing but HoT people to exaggerate how bad the changes are you WILL be disappointed.

However, I've found that the big point of 1.05 is to steer the focus of healing away from HoTs and more into direct heals, so what did I do? I tried utilizing RoResto more instead of just mindlessly stacking RoRegen and RoM on everybody, and I noticed 2 things.

1: My overall healing output either remained equal or increased.

2: I actually found that I had more instances where I was actually able to save people. Not just sustain them but actually keep them from dieing.

So what I'm left with is this. Every single person, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has been screaming till they are blue in the face about these nerfs has not even attempted to try and make it work. They just shriveled up in a fetal position sobbing and begging for everything to go back the way it was, and you know what? I'm glad all these people will be rerolling or leaving. Perhaps then we can shake off some of the negativity infesting this forum...

This is a great post, because I think it highlights what Mythic wants from the changes. Healers to direct heals and use other abilities more rather then just use the HOT + DH+hot spells. It's not that Mythic hates healers, they just want them to use different spells.

Bia

11-16-2008, 04:54 PM

Ironically, even the 2.5s direct heal is 10% slower than my direct heal on live due to Master Rune of speed being broken on test. As upset as I am with the intentional changes in 1.0.5 (and that's an understatement), I'm at least confident that MRoS will be fixed before it goes live (it works fine on live, it's only broken on test).

MRoS will be pretty much manadatory now - you would be a fool not to spec for it.

taechar

11-16-2008, 07:17 PM

The big 3sec (now 2.5) should be our only heal to save people getting targeted. Problem is that most people die faster, or take more dmg than the 3sec heal could do when spammed. Cast time lowered to 2.5 isn't enough, lower it to 2sec and keep the setback, or even 1,5 sec but total interrupt and not just setback. A uninterrupted healer should be insanely powerful but put someone on him and they much worse.

I disagree on one particular. This would work for Order. It wouldn't for Destruction. More Order are RDPS focused, Destruction are more MDPS focused. Give healers this "boon" and Order healers would not be stoppable in spamming healing on the front lines. Why? because we lack the ranged abilities to keep popping/interrupting the healbots in the back lines. It's already bad enough as it is if 4 healers are focusing on healing one target like I am seeing more and more in scenarios.

Stormblazer

11-16-2008, 07:46 PM

MRoS will be pretty much manadatory now - you would be a fool not to spec for it.
Don't entirely agree with this- True, MRoS is one of my favorite abilities and I love it, but builds with MRoA aren't that bad either if done correctly, at least for my r30 RP, and it's nice to have some variation, and Ancestor's Echo isn't that bad despite not proc'ing on things it ought to (procs only on GG, RoResto, BoV, initial applications of MRoA/RoSerenity/RoMend).
'Course, poor Zealots are screwed either way since they can't get MRoS, instead they get some crappy on hit damage shield.

Stormblazer

11-16-2008, 07:53 PM

I disagree on one particular. This would work for Order. It wouldn't for Destruction. More Order are RDPS focused, Destruction are more MDPS focused. Give healers this "boon" and Order healers would not be stoppable in spamming healing on the front lines. Why? because we lack the ranged abilities to keep popping/interrupting the healbots in the back lines. It's already bad enough as it is if 4 healers are focusing on healing one target like I am seeing more and more in scenarios.
I disagree with your reasoning: Dest has boatloads of AoE disables / buildup debuffs, while Order has hardly any (zero in the case of aoe buildup debuffs), which when used intelligently (hardly ever) absolutely wrecks healers trying to cast longer heals.
However, on the other hand, Runepriests get Master Rune of Speed where Zealots don't get anything like it. This means that for MRoS RPs (common because it rocks) the big heal and the group heal are a mere 1.8s cast post-patch assuming MRoS isn't broken still post-patch (works fine on live, broken on test).

Either way, if the HoT nerfs go live, especially the one to the hybrid HoT, it's unlikely I will continue playing my Runepriest. The hybrid HoT needed good scaling, it was a good emergency ability balanced by it's extremely high AP cost. As of 1.05 any healer using the hybrid HoT past T2 is nutty, because the scaling isn't just being nerfed, it's being nerfed into the ground from 0.8HPW to 0.3HPW. The base healing on the ability was always rather lackluster, only scaling made the ability worth using.

Kyrontor

11-17-2008, 02:05 AM

I love my healers, and I feel I get tons of heals each and every game I'm in. I haven't soloed since I hit 40.

Beside that, healers are the most popular class to solo scenario currently. They can get 5k-10k renown doing this. Maybe they should nerf healer renown again back to the previous levels?

And if you look at the end of that post, it was me talking about me playing my tank or healer... and healing solo Bright Wizards... I get good renown that way.

You haven't soloed since you hit 40 cause now healers are not XP leechers but RP sharers. Would be stupid to go solo at 40.

As you said earlier on another post, best way to get renown at 40 is oRvR. Or that's not true? You have to decide first then i 'll answer you.

Yes at the end of the post you re saying that when you play your alts (that can't get any decent XP themselves being tank and healer) you join soloers cause you love them. That's very convincing. You were soloing on your BW leaving the other tanks and healers get crap XP but now you suddenly love them on your alts...

Calelith

11-17-2008, 02:29 AM

I hope mythic atleast look at this thread and realise almost nobody wants the healing 'nerf'.

Crode

11-17-2008, 08:43 AM

Kurugi][/b]
I've gotten on the PTS. If anything I feel more able as a healer than on live. Why? Because I'm going along with the changes. If you go on the PTS and either try to heal how you use to by doing nothing but HoT people up, or if you intentionally do nothing but HoT people to exaggerate how bad the changes are you WILL be disappointed.

However, I've found that the big point of 1.05 is to steer the focus of healing away from HoTs and more into direct heals, so what did I do? I tried utilizing RoResto more instead of just mindlessly stacking RoRegen and RoM on everybody, and I noticed 2 things.

1: My overall healing output either remained equal or increased.

2: I actually found that I had more instances where I was actually able to save people. Not just sustain them but actually keep them from dieing.

So what I'm left with is this. Every single person, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has been screaming till they are blue in the face about these nerfs has not even attempted to try and make it work. They just shriveled up in a fetal position sobbing and begging for everything to go back the way it was, and you know what? I'm glad all these people will be rerolling or leaving. Perhaps then we can shake off some of the negativity infesting this forum...

If you like standing way in the back and healbotting I guess this is the patch for you then =) I try to do more than heal since that is what my class is supposed to do. I thought.

This is a great post, because I think it highlights what Mythic wants from the changes. Healers to direct heals and use other abilities more rather then just use the HOT + DH+hot spells. It's not that Mythic hates healers, they just want them to use different spells.

Nobody can understand what Mythic wants with this patch since they have not said a damn word. Maybe when they redo all the itemization they are going to double the armor and resistances? IMO someone there has taken a trip on the crazy train.

Catseye

11-17-2008, 08:43 AM

You haven't soloed since you hit 40 cause now healers are not XP leechers but RP sharers. Would be stupid to go solo at 40.

As you said earlier on another post, best way to get renown at 40 is oRvR. Or that's not true? You have to decide first then i 'll answer you.

Yes at the end of the post you re saying that when you play your alts (that can't get any decent XP themselves being tank and healer) you join soloers cause you love them. That's very convincing. You were soloing on your BW leaving the other tanks and healers get crap XP but now you suddenly love them on your alts...

I don't mind healers who solo nor dps that solos, it's the way the game is set up to reward them. There was enough healer whining about healing being low renown that they change it to reward healer more. Now healers just solo again like the beginning of the game.

It takes a lot less time to get from 0-40 then to go from rr40 to rr46 if you do scenarios as a BW or really any other class other then healer. You can do BFO's for a few nights and get a rank a night as any class.

I play a healing class as a alt just as I play a dps class as a main, and your whole point was that I was a BW who had a grudge against healers. Which is not really a valid statement.

This is more or less off topic and has nothing to do with the changes, so I'm going to end it by not commenting anymore about solo players and why they solo.

As far as the comments on 80% of "players"(more mostly healers) complaining about nerfs to their class, I don't think the pool is representative of the player base. It represents healers, and I'm not suprised it does. Most healers I group with are wait and see right now or they complain a bit. But they do think the boost to their direct heal will help them in that department.

EDIT: One one change they can make for healers, decrease the AP cost of the DD+HOT spell to reflect the coefficient drop. ~40-45AP to cast.

Crode

11-17-2008, 08:51 AM

As far as the comments on 80% of "players"(more mostly healers) complaining about nerfs to their class, I don't think the pool is representative of the player base. It represents healers, and I'm not suprised it does. Most healers I group with are wait and see right now or they complain a bit. But they do think the boost to their direct heal will help them in that department.

I would say 384 voters would cover a good cross section of the forum public. Remember everyone that expects to be healed in this game is going to suffer. Most of us healer supporters have been pretty calm and posting well thought out constructive criticism. The healer haters group here consists of you and a few trolls. This is going to be interesting when the nit hits the fan tomorrow.

Catseye

11-17-2008, 08:56 AM

I would say 384 voters would cover a good cross section of the forum public. Remember everyone that expects to be healed in this game is going to suffer. Most of us healer supporters have been pretty calm and posting well thought out constructive criticism. The healer haters group here consists of you and a few trolls. This is going to be interesting when the nit hits the fan tomorrow.

I'm not worried, I hope the patch goes thru. I think most of the voters in this thread are healers. As far as playing a very healer dependent class I'm not worried about this change. It's not about feeling overpowered in game or living thru focus fire that makes the game fun for me, it's about beating the other side and playing a character well.

As far as your post, I don't think I will respond to you anymore as you're just bashing me and other posters personally.

Greyform

11-17-2008, 09:41 AM

I'm not worried, I hope the patch goes thru. I think most of the voters in this thread are healers. As far as playing a very healer dependent class I'm not worried about this change. It's not about feeling overpowered in game or living thru focus fire that makes the game fun for me, it's about beating the other side and playing a character well.

As far as your post, I don't think I will respond to you anymore as you're just bashing me and other posters personally.

We get that DPS likes the fact healers are getting nerfed. It's almost a buff to them. but I do hope that Mythic can look at this poll and see that 80% of those who did reply do not favor the changes.

Catseye

11-17-2008, 09:50 AM

We get that DPS likes the fact healers are getting nerfed. It's almost a buff to them. but I do hope that Mythic can look at this poll and see that 80% of those who did reply do not favor the changes.

HOTS are nerfed, Direct heals are buffed.

All those that say, but I never cast direct heals in combat... or I can't cast direct heals...or I won't cast direct heals are really really really nerfed..

Greyform

11-17-2008, 10:13 AM

HOTS are nerfed, Direct heals are buffed.

All those that say, but I never cast direct heals in combat... or I can't cast direct heals...or I won't cast direct heals are really really really nerfed..

WP's don't get direct heals. We have Melee heals, group heals and HoT's. Our Melee heal has been buffed. But we need to be hitting someone to use it and many times it is blocked or parried so it does not land at all. so whether it's 250% or 350% if it does not land 350% of nothing is still nothing.

Catseye

11-17-2008, 10:28 AM

WP's don't get direct heals. We have Melee heals, group heals and HoT's. Our Melee heal has been buffed. But we need to be hitting someone to use it and many times it is blocked or parried so it does not land at all. so whether it's 250% or 350% if it does not land 350% of nothing is still nothing.

WP's don't get the big direct heals, but they get very good AOE healing to compensate.

I recommend not using divine assault on a tank or someone with a shield from in front, try a class from behind or something squishier.

Divine assault is hard to use, but it's the one spell I try to maneuver myself into position to use when I need to. Having 24s hots will let me maneuver to use this skill more often too.

WP is probably the harder healing class to play, and I enjoy it a lot.

My damage done/healed in tier 2 is ~ 5-10k/20-40k. This is ~ a 20% 80% ratio which I think is adequate for a healing specced WP. If I do nothing but heal I can get 50k-60k, but that means I didn't use divine assault and just hotted. I usually get 3-5 killing blows with my weak dps, because I assist on low targets and squishy targets. I don't just hit things for no reason. I leave that to the real DPS. :D

I can't wait to get to level 20 right now to get my first AOE heal, and 21 to get the 60s group shield. Will make me feel more clutch.

My goal for tier 4 is consistant 150k-200k healing if I'm in a 6 man group.

I see my end game as a mix of CC, minor dps to kill a low health target or runner or Witch Elf that's hitting the squishy and a keeping my group topped off while healing the rest of the Warband with single target heals. Also the AOE channeled heal during keep/fortress pushes.

Greyform

11-17-2008, 10:59 AM

Catseye

11-17-2008, 11:13 AM

The point is HoT's for WP's and DoK's did not need a nerf. It allowed us to do other things after casting. Our Melee heals only work if they land, and thinking any class is just going to stand there while you get behind them to land it is just plain Pollyanna thinking.

These are real players who are capable of thinking for themselves not mindless NPC's

Less healing per tick just has everyone playing catch-up all the more. Which is made worse by DoT's doing more damage.

They need to scratch this aspect of the patch.

Usually the target that I'm meleeing is going after someone else. I'm not attacking someone offensively that's going to dodge out of the way, but someone who's already intent on something else rather then defend against me. They aren't mindless NPC's but they're not looking to dodge my attacks, but to kill or disrupt someone else. Also my other target of choice is a mindless NPC.. see Squig. If someone is up in my grill, I repent them and go to another target and try to avoid them and keep myself up. I can't wait until intimidating repent either. Also most classes that are squishy except for WE/WH have neglibile parry and dodge.

The HOT change will have a bigger effect on WP single target healing, but this is not the bread and butter of WP healing, rather group heals and AOE heals is. I don't think that is hurt by these changes.

Greyform

11-17-2008, 12:22 PM

The HOT change will have a bigger effect on WP single target healing, but this is not the bread and butter of WP healing, rather group heals and AOE heals is. I don't think that is hurt by these changes.

Well we obviously are going to keep disagreeing. But I will close on this note:

I used my HoT's in addition to my other heals. With DoT's getting a boost it already lessened the effect of the HoT's I cast on a DoT'ed player. Nerfing the heals per tick is like a double nerf in that regard. I don't believe my HoT's were OP in the first place. I don't agree with the direction Mythic is taking. I hope they consider the input of the other players who play a healer as a main before moving forward with this change.

It is not welcomed by many of us.

Catseye

11-17-2008, 12:33 PM

Well we obviously are going to keep disagreeing. But I will close on this note:

I used my HoT's in addition to my other heals. With DoT's getting a boost it already lessened the effect of the HoT's I cast on a DoT'ed player. Nerfing the heals per tick is like a double nerf in that regard. I don't believe my HoT's were OP in the first place. I don't agree with the direction Mythic is taking. I hope they consider the input of the other players who play a healer as a main before moving forward with this change.

It is not welcomed by many of us.

Let's see what the patch brings, I think the short cast time dd+hot should have lower AP, I think it might be a bit too high cost for the effect it does. As far as the standard HOT, it's too powerful ATM not because of the benefit it adds to a single healer, but multiple healers stacking it on multiple targets and still having the time to burst heal. The patch still allows for multiple healers stacking HOTs to lesser effect but gives more time to direct heal with faster or more effective direct heals.

I don't think this change is welcome by most healers, just as my crit nerf is not welcome by me, but I think both are necessary balance changes. Just as magus/squig/engie/shadow warrior damage boost are neccessary.

Aiiane

11-17-2008, 12:41 PM

I don't think this change is welcome by most healers, just as my crit nerf is not welcome by me, but I think both are necessary balance changes. Just as magus/squig/engie/shadow warrior damage boost are neccessary.

Please tell me where you saw someone complaining in anything aside from a 1v1 situation that enemies weren't dying fast enough.

Catseye

11-17-2008, 12:57 PM

Please tell me where you saw someone complaining in anything aside from a 1v1 situation that enemies weren't dying fast enough.

Dying is not the problem, classes can instant res and 3s res.

Also I'm not sure if you are in a rank 24 guild or not, but there is a ability called Rally that resses a player and brings them to full health. It's instant and has a 150 ft range on a 3 minute cooldown.

I constantly find players talking about dying when it's not really a huge penalty in this game, it's so minimal, the burst heal was the same cast time as the res on two of the classes. If you didn't save that player you didn't really hurt your team that much, you bring them back and that's that.

WP has the least effective res, but they also get very powerful AOE heals and group heals.

Yea, you gave rp's to the other team, but that's about it.

Aiiane

11-17-2008, 01:18 PM

Dying is not the problem, classes can instant res and 3s res.

Also I'm not sure if you are in a rank 24 guild or not, but there is a ability called Rally that resses a player and brings them to full health. It's instant and has a 150 ft range on a 3 minute cooldown.

I constantly find players talking about dying when it's not really a huge penalty in this game, it's so minimal, the burst heal was the same cast time as the res on two of the classes. If you didn't save that player you didn't really hurt your team that much, you bring them back and that's that.

WP has the least effective res, but they also get very powerful AOE heals and group heals.

Yea, you gave rp's to the other team, but that's about it.

That's the thing. Dying may not be much for DPS, but keeping people from dying is the essence of a healing class. If nothing else, it makes healers feel useless if the end result of any encounter is just going to be them rezzing their target.

That's what you don't understand here, and that's really the core of it.

Our bread-and-butter heal should not be Resurrection.

Catseye

11-17-2008, 01:25 PM

That's the thing. Dying may not be much for DPS, but keeping people from dying is the essence of a healing class. If nothing else, it makes healers feel useless if the end result of any encounter is just going to be them rezzing their target.

That's what you don't understand here, and that's really the core of it.

Our bread-and-butter heal should not be Resurrection.

You get the ability, it works damn well. Use it.

This game is this game, and combat res is a huge part of it. I will improve your game play if you res as much as possible. This is one of the big difference in pug vs premade play as in a pug I always click that respawn button unless someone's been paying attention to me(pretty often) and in a premade I only do so when we call it on vent.

What you're basically saying is that you want to feel good about saving someone's life with heals. But WAR is war, and people die, feelings may get hurt, but you get to bring them back to life.

I may die 4-5 times a SC, but only 1-2 of those death do I run back.

Think of it this way, if you save everyone, nobody gets any RP's and everyone will instead go do battlefield objectives for RP's and bypass all the actual fighting.

If they took away combat res, gave everyone 1.5x healing vs dps... then it starts resembling... well... you know.

Nary

11-17-2008, 01:32 PM

If they took away combat res, gave everyone 1.5x healing vs dps... then it starts resembling... well... you know.

A game where healers aren't necromancers in disguise?

Catseye

11-17-2008, 01:36 PM

A game where healers aren't necromancers in disguise?

You might not like it, but it's the way this game was set up. Healing vastly greater then dps was never a intention and combat res as a baseline ability pretty much makes that a given.

The number of heals used vs the number of res used is still going to be incredibly favorable to healing.

Greyform

11-17-2008, 01:37 PM

A game where healers aren't necromancers in disguise?

lol, well said +1

Catseye

11-17-2008, 01:43 PM

lol, well said +1

Not really funny, more a meaningless post that really don't address the gameplay mechanic. Just a personal jab at something they found lacking in the gameplay.

If Mythic intended for healing to be much greater then dps, they would have released the game that way.

Anyways, Patch Day Tommorrow... Can't wait.

Nary

11-17-2008, 02:13 PM

Not really funny, more a meaningless post that really don't address the gameplay mechanic. Just a personal jab at something they found lacking in the gameplay.

If Mythic intended for healing to be much greater then dps, they would have released the game that way.

Anyways, Patch Day Tommorrow... Can't wait.

More a response to your idea that healers being able to heal was a silly idea.

The gameplay mechanic is skewed. It's been said by many, myself included. Look at that poll that Browncoat put up where there were close to 80% of the respondents saying they felt the healing change was out of line.

The lack of death penalty encourages poor play, because it means your life is worthless. So why care that you are throwing it away?

Encouraging healers to be what amounts to necromancers is simply poor design. Supporting decisions that further that expectation encourages poor design.

Catseye

11-17-2008, 02:21 PM

...poor design.

Not poor design, just design you don't agree with. It's not the same as other MMO's but doesn't mean it's poor design. WAR was not meant as a mainstream MMO, that's being dominated by the other one. It's a niche MMO that is made to provide a grittier, bloodier, less carebear enviroment. And it does, while also remaining easy, accessible and not grind-like(altho the end-game could use a little bit of help here..).

Combat ressing is a fundamental part of this game, inseperable from the healing mechanic. It's avaliable in guild rewards, every healer and PVE and PVP except boss fights. There is a talent to make it instant for two of the healing classes. It's simply a fundamental mechanic that you might hate, but it's your decision to play the game as it's meant to be played or complain that it's not made to your satisfaction. I can't really stop you from voicing your opinion, nor do I want to, but please recognize that this is just a fundamental part of the game. Some people will enjoy it, others will hate it. But it will not be balanced if healing was 150% and this mechanic remain.

Drakos

11-17-2008, 02:25 PM

They should add a rez counter to scenarios. I do agree here that the combat rezzing is often overlooked when commenting on the healer changes. Most of the times on live(didnt get enough chance to test on the PTS myself) when people die it is due to massive FF which implies they were out of position and I dont think that will change here. They will just be extra dead now. I do find the necromancer comment quite humorous though. :)

Nary

11-17-2008, 02:28 PM

WAR was not meant as a mainstream MMO...It's a niche MMO

MJB, and much of the overall design decisions of this game would contradict your statement. He was expecting/wishing for 1m+ subscribers. That is not a niche game, that is a mainstream game.

What has happened is that it has become a niche game. But under no circumstances was it designed to be one.

Aiiane

11-17-2008, 02:32 PM

Not poor design, just design you don't agree with. It's not the same as other MMO's but doesn't mean it's poor design. WAR was not meant as a mainstream MMO, that's being dominated by the other one. It's a niche MMO that is made to provide a grittier, bloodier, less carebear enviroment. And it does, while also remaining easy, accessible and not grind-like(altho the end-game could use a little bit of help here..).

Combat ressing is a fundamental part of this game, inseperable from the healing mechanic. It's avaliable in guild rewards, every healer and PVE and PVP except boss fights. There is a talent to make it instant for two of the healing classes. It's simply a fundamental mechanic that you might hate, but it's your decision to play the game as it's meant to be played or complain that it's not made to your satisfaction. I can't really stop you from voicing your opinion, nor do I want to, but please recognize that this is just a fundamental part of the game. Some people will enjoy it, others will hate it. But it will not be balanced if healing was 150% and this mechanic remain.

I have yet to see anyone besides you who finds the idea of dying so frequently enjoyable.

The tactic 'Hurried Restore' has been on my archmage's pvp healing tactics set since I got it, and I make plenty of use of it... but that doesn't mean I find it enjoyable.

See, this is where your argument breaks down. I see a ton of threads about "is rezzing too easy", and almost zero threads about "is healing too powerful".

You might not see it, but it's obvious to the rest of us that Mythic struck the wrong balance between healing and rezzing.