1.05 and Ironbreakers (Now PTS tested)

[andante]

So I was at my friends house and tested PTS on my IB.

Now I believe many of you have read my previous post about my concerns about the 1.05 changes, and now I've played on the PTS, all I have to say is this.

I didn't know it was possible but playing on 1.05 PTS as a IB was WORSE than I predicted. It was the most unpleasant and frustrating experience I've had ever in WAR and it left such a bad taste in my mouth that I don't think I'm going to go back to PTS anytime soon.

I'll explain in two parts, how 1.05 was so horrible in poth PVE and PVP.

PVE
... THE 10 SECOND DECAY IS BRUTAL. Change it back to 30 seconds.

On live, grinding mobs for PQs or leveling has been acceptable as a IB. Now on 1.05 it's more frustrating than PVP on live.

By the time I kill a mob, I have around 50-70 grudge right. Then I scavenge it, and by the time I move to a new mob I back down to 0 grudge!!! The only way to counter this is to pull multiple mobs, but don't plan to even loot or scavenge them after you kill them or else you'll be back to 0 grudge again for the next pull. THIS IS RIDICULOUS!

Also on live I use cave in, my 4 second knockdown to finish off mobs in case they run. Now on 1.05, I use cave in and I find myself losing grudge WHILE looting/scavenging... now I'm hesitant to even use cave in, because they stop hitting while knockdown. the 4 second knockdown eats up 40% of my 10 second decay timer for the next pull.

Also I tried some PVE bosses (BFOs) on 1.05. I decided to off tank, we killed the champs and pulled the hero (there were only like 3 of us). I decided to test my oathfriend to simulate some PVE boss fights, it took over 2 minutes for me to get 100 grudge!! wtf. My best ability is Stonebreaker 25% armor reduction at 0 grudge, 75% reduction at 100 grudge. To have to wait over 2 minutes to get up to 75% armor reduction while a black orc can spam 5 buttons in less than 8 seconds to get the same thing... this is insane.

Fighting every mob at 0 grudge all the time and having all my abilities gimped is probably the most unfun and frustating thing ever... actually not true... I havent even got to the PVP in 1.05... it gets alot worse.

PVP
... THE 10 SECOND DECAY IS BRUTAL. Change it back to 30 seconds.

Didn't do much ORVR, but I have trouble keeping grudge in ORVR on live, can't imagine how it is now...

OK I did do a couple of serpents passage and I'll report the experiences I had there. Like always I was ignored 99% of the time because well... I'm a tank.

To sum it up...

chasing healer, before I know it, down to 0 grudge while chasing and hitting the healer.

Enemy team decides to retreat... down to 0 grudge again while chasing them.

Rooted... down to 0 grudge.

Snared/kited... down to 0 grudge.

... I think you get the picture.

Also it takes a ridiculous amount of time to get to 100 grudge... wait I don't even think I even hit 100 grudge even once even while switching oathfriends all the time.

I take that back, the only time I hit 100 grudge was when I got focused fired and died just as I hit 100 grudge. Ironic thing is, I had 5 stacks of break armor on me in no time by a black orc for 75% of my armor gone in no time when they decided to focus fire me. I wasn't able to reduce someone's armor by 75% even once.

Conclusion
PTS is the worst gaming experience I've had in a while. Playing as a ironbreaker was not fun... not for a bit. Grudge management seemed like a job/chore/headache and I couldn't even concentrate helping my team because I'm always focused on my grudge. Funny thing is, the 10 second decay made all my attempts trying to manage my grudge futile and pointless.

Now there is some hope, the change I heard about changing oathfriend from 5/3/1 to 10/5/3 might help out grudge generation. HOWEVER, CHANGE back 10 second decay to 30 seconds.

Even at 30 seconds, grudge in ORVR is a pain to maintain, anything else will make Ironbreakers a joke in ORVR.

__________________________________________________ ____________________
Here is another post, I'll post it here so it's more easier to view. It will explain how IBs should be changed in order to fix the class mechanic


My proposal

Change #1
The decrease on the cooldown on oathfriend makes the IB's oathfriends even less significant than facebook "friends". I propose that oathfriend should have it's cooldown increased to 1 min or even 2 mins.

Reason:
On live, the 15 second cooldown allows ironbreakers to swap oathfriends to whoever is getting hit without a second thought thus allowing them to run on 100 grudge no matter the situation. With the dramatic increase on cooldown, it forces the IB to seriously consider who to make oathfriends with. Also this change allows the enemy team work around the fact that the IB can't switch oathfriends on the fly and gives them the option to avoid the oathfriend entirely to limit the IB grudges. This also implies that oathfriend can be an indirect way to tank/protect a valued team member. This change thus can award both sides on smart play. Also due to the high cooldown, it can be a good motivation for the IB to go out of his way to protect his oathfriend thus forcing him to expend grudge abilities such as his knockback or defensive buffs.

However if they decide to attack the IB's precious oathfriend, they deserve to feel the wrath of a 100 grudge IB... just like what it says in the class description.

Change #2
With the increase on oathfriend cooldown thus limiting the IB's grudge. Grudge decay should be increased to 1 minute, another possibility is 10-20 seconds after being out of combat.

Reason:
The ironbreaker is a hardened veteran soldier not a college kid with ADD (which is what the PTS 10 second grudge decay implies). On a more serious note, this change also prevents the all too frequent awkward situation that happens alot on PTS where there is a huge battle going around the IB with the IB fully engaged in it yet he is losing grudges due to being not hit by the opposing team. Mainly however this change is to offset the cooldown on oathfriend.



With these changes the ironbreaker would work like a class that values his oathfriends and will not forgive any wrongs commited against him and his oathfriends. Coincidentally this change also would make the Ironbreaker more Akin to it's philosophy and class description. These changes award both the Ironbreaker's and the opposing team on smart play by giving the IB's enemies more control on controlling the IB's grudge while at the same time gives the IB more control on protecting his allies.


So what do you guys think?

[Boomstar]

*Edited for content*

[andante]

*Edited for content*

congratulations on reading my post and posting constructive feedback

[RoTM]

Apparantly class mechanics arnt supposed to be an advantage, they are supposed to be horrible burdens that make you work twice as hard to be below average. Having grudges drop after 10 seconds when we cant even actively control grudge generation even if we are in the middle of combat is ridiculous. Keep this up and your game is going to be even more of nothing but ranged shooting each other from 100 ft mythic.

[Zunjin]

Is there a testing forum for reporting stuff like this ( in say like example the old beta forum ) or you just write here in hope a dev gonna find it?

[Boomstar]

congratulations on reading my post and posting constructive feedback

*Edited for content*

[Tratur]

From what I could tell in prepatch, all tanks needed a buff (in some way, even if it was an extra ability to actually get to the front lines easier). If anyone thought Ironbreakers were overpowered it was probably because they were playing an underpowered class (e.g. chosen). I never remember anyone going "oh no, there's an ironbreaker, run!". Only thing that scared me was the lava they punt me into in tor, otherwise everyone just walked around them.

"PTS is the worst gaming experience I've had in a while. Playing as a ironbreaker was not fun... not for a bit. Grudge management seemed like a job/chore/headache and I couldn't even concentrate helping my team because I'm always focused on my grudge. Funny thing is, the 10 second decay made all my attempts trying to manage my grudge futile and pointless."

Sounds just like what Chosen were going through with their auras... hopefully the str-int change fixes that and makes the work given actually have noticable rewards.

[Nevare]

Shouldn't this be in the IB forums? Do we really need every class having it's own thread on the Combat Discussion forums?

[waterbpu]

what can i say... Ironbreaker arn't good scavenger.

[Diezlburn]

congratulations on reading my post and posting constructive feedback

there's nothing constructive about your post bro

Traytor, the first thing I heard was broken was 'Ironbreakers and Bright Wizards' when I started playing this game.. actually heard that a few times. I consistently see IB top the damage charts by 8-10k in Tier 2... not necessarily all the time, but enough.

[Tarion]

Is there a testing forum for reporting stuff like this ( in say like example the old beta forum ) or you just write here in hope a dev gonna find it?
In game feedback, I'd guess.

[KMB]

[edited - pts]

[waterbpu]

So whats the point of having a grudge mechanic if you want 100 grudge all the time. Why not just scrap grudge and base the skills you can use off of action points. It sounds to me like that's what that long winded whine was about. Having to manage your grudge...the horror.

Thing is I never find IB particularly strong even with 100 grudge. But is really gimp with 0 grudge and takes forever to fill.

But IMO the 10 second isn't bad... for pve at least, just dont' be a scavenger.

[Exsequien]

Just get cultivating instead.

[Kuari]

All I can say is this... did you leave feedback about all this? If not, go do so because chances of a dev noticing this post are probably low.

[Dramith]

Welcome to a class mechanic that works?

Maybe we should give the Bright Wizard/Sorceress mechanic a 30 second decay time too, that would rock!

[waterbpu]

Welcome to a class mechanic that works?

Maybe we should give the Bright Wizard/Sorceress mechanic a 30 second decay time too, that would rock!

It's different, ironbreaker pretty much do no dmg with 0 grudge. But BW still do decent dmg with 0 combustion.

Also, I use meltdown alot for solo pve with my BW, because I don't even want 100 combustion. But I always want 100 grudge on my ironbreaker.

[tester13]

"Welcome to a class mechanic that works?

Maybe we should give the Bright Wizard/Sorceress mechanic a 30 second decay time too, that would rock!"

Sure, just don't forget to make ti so bw/sorc only get 5 combustion per spell (no matter which one) instead of the current system where a bw can get 100 combustion in 4 spells or so. If you really want to have some fun, make it so they can only gain combustion while being within 65 feet or less of their target :) wouldn't that be fun?

Anyway, a bw is a good class, combustion allows it to output even more damage at a price (solo'ing as a bw I constantly dump combustion since I find my damage is decent enaugh and since it's a pug I can't afford the damage from back lash) where as an iron breaker *needs* to be at 100 grudge to get to it's max potential.

You think that 100 grudge ib's potential is too high? why not then tighten the difference between 0 and 100 grudge and lower the potential at 100 grudge? It accomplishes the same thing (reduced potential at 100 grudge) while making a 0 grudge iron breaker less of a gimp than currently.

Making grudge decay after 10 seconds of last generating grudge (not 10 seconds out of combat, 10 seconds of not generating grudge, which means that unless you have risign anger sloted you'll lose grudge while in combat if no one hits you or oath friend) is equivalent to making bw/sorc gain 10 combustion when they melee with their staff.. it completely ruins that mechanic as it is counterproductive to the way the class plays.

Once they implement 10/5/3 grudge when oath friend is hit, the rate at which you gain grudge will be fine (still 230% slower than what is live) but the 10s decay needs to go.

[Donton21]

It sounds to me like that's what that long winded whine was about. Having to manage your grudge...the horror.
Are you kidding me? Manage the grudge? We have nothing to manage now, Iv'e played 3 scenarios and I've reached 100 grudge maybe 2 times and not once did I use an ability that costs any.

[maximsuon]

All I'm seeing is "Bawwww I want 100 grudge all the time so i can do imba dps!".

If grudge is resetting while you still are in combat thats different thing.

Basically though you want everything to stay the same to keep your overpowered status, very long winded but that is the gist of it.

black orcs do great damage and dont need grudge now how is that not oped?

[Jackace]

Are you kidding me? Manage the grudge? We have nothing to manage now, Iv'e played 3 scenarios and I've reached 100 grudge maybe 2 times and not once did I use an ability that costs any.

Sounds about like chosen and auras.

[Lesane]

great my fears just got real. Hopefully they will change this because an IB who's reliant on having 100 grudge simply can't function if he doesn't.

[Mac Sidewinder]

Welcome to a class mechanic that works?

Maybe we should give the Bright Wizard/Sorceress mechanic a 30 second decay time too, that would rock!

Works? The only way to compare the mechanics of an IB and thw BW/Sorc is to have the Comb/magic of those two not build unless they either hit something or get hit. IB's have no way to preload their grudge and are totally dependant upon the opponent building it for them. Both BW/Sorc can build their mechanic and maintain it out of combat making it far superior to the IB grudge mechanic.

If the IB mechanic now works then evidentally the BW/Sorc mechanic is still broken.

Mac

[Drakos]

Sounds like they just need to boost abilities at low grudge if IBs are so gimp at 0.

[Jawajoey]

Lets look at the facts, shall we?

For a lot of the moves that have nothing to do with grudge, Black Orcs just do more damage
Grudging Blow (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1355) vs Clobber (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1664)
Vengeful Strike (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1357) vs Savin' Me Hide (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1677)
Guarded Attack (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1356) vs Tuffer 'n Nails (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1669)

The ones that improve with grudge are pretty much just better if the IB has any grudge at all.
Heavy Blow (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1354) vs Skull Thumper (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1676)
Stone Breaker (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1371) vs Wot Armor? (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1666)
Binding Grudge (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1358) vs Trip 'Em Up (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1670)
Rune-Etched Axe (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1366) vs Da Big Un' (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1678)

And IB's of course have greater utility and CC, which admittedly is far less important than Damage in solo PvE. And IB's can use any of their abilities at any time. Their mechanic is a bonus, not a restriction.

So, in terms of damage, it looks like BOs have an advantage until the IB gets Grudge. Is that balanced? If it's as easy for IB's to get grudge as it is now (Live, I mean), no, not really, IB's are just better at everything. If IB's couldn't get grudge easily, then it's arguable. IB's get more utility and are a jillion times better at protecting others, so lower damage could be a reasonable tradeoff, but it's sort of unfair to gimp a class' ability to solo PvE for any reason, in this game at least.

So I guess the question is: Is it really that bad? If it is, it's a little extreme. Grudge shouldn't decay in combat, period. If it's not as bad as the OP says, which I'm slightly more inclined to believe, who knows?

[Huejjohnson]

So I was at my friends house and tested PTS on my IB.

Now I believe many of you have read my previous post about my concerns about the 1.05 changes, and now I've played on the PTS, all I have to say is this.

I didn't know it was possible but playing on 1.05 PTS as a IB was WORSE than I predicted. It was the most unpleasant and frustrating experience I've had ever in WAR and it left such a bad taste in my mouth that I don't think I'm going to go back to PTS anytime soon.

I'll explain in two parts, how 1.05 was so horrible in poth PVE and PVP.

PVE
... THE 10 SECOND DECAY IS BRUTAL. Change it back to 30 seconds.

On live, grinding mobs for PQs or leveling has been acceptable as a IB. Now on 1.05 it's more frustrating than PVP on live.

By the time I kill a mob, I have around 50-70 grudge right. Then I scavenge it, and by the time I move to a new mob I back down to 0 grudge!!! The only way to counter this is to pull multiple mobs, but don't plan to even loot or scavenge them after you kill them or else you'll be back to 0 grudge again for the next pull. THIS IS RIDICULOUS!

Also on live I use cave in, my 4 second knockdown to finish off mobs in case they run. Now on 1.05, I use cave in and I find myself losing grudge WHILE looting/scavenging... now I'm hesitant to even use cave in, because they stop hitting while knockdown. the 4 second knockdown eats up 40% of my 10 second decay timer for the next pull.

Also I tried some PVE bosses (BFOs) on 1.05. I decided to off tank, we killed the champs and pulled the hero (there were only like 3 of us). I decided to test my oathfriend to simulate some PVE boss fights, it took over 2 minutes for me to get 100 grudge!! wtf. My best ability is Stonebreaker 25% armor reduction at 0 grudge, 75% reduction at 100 grudge. To have to wait over 2 minutes to get up to 75% armor reduction while a black orc can spam 5 buttons in less than 8 seconds to get the same thing... this is insane.

Fighting every mob at 0 grudge all the time and having all my abilities gimped is probably the most unfun and frustating thing ever... actually not true... I havent even got to the PVP in 1.05... it gets alot worse.

PVP
... THE 10 SECOND DECAY IS BRUTAL. Change it back to 30 seconds.

Didn't do much ORVR, but I have trouble keeping grudge in ORVR on live, can't imagine how it is now...

OK I did do a couple of serpents passage and I'll report the experiences I had there. Like always I was ignored 99% of the time because well... I'm a tank.

To sum it up...

chasing healer, before I know it, down to 0 grudge while chasing and hitting the healer.

Enemy team decides to retreat... down to 0 grudge again while chasing them.

Rooted... down to 0 grudge.

Snared/kited... down to 0 grudge.

... I think you get the picture.

Also it takes a ridiculous amount of time to get to 100 grudge... wait I don't even think I even hit 100 grudge even once even while switching oathfriends all the time.

I take that back, the only time I hit 100 grudge was when I got focused fired and died just as I hit 100 grudge. Ironic thing is, I had 5 stacks of break armor on me in no time by a black orc for 75% of my armor gone in no time when they decided to focus fire me. I wasn't able to reduce someone's armor by 75% even once.

Conclusion
PTS is the worst gaming experience I've had in a while. Playing as a ironbreaker was not fun... not for a bit. Grudge management seemed like a job/chore/headache and I couldn't even concentrate helping my team because I'm always focused on my grudge. Funny thing is, the 10 second decay made all my attempts trying to manage my grudge futile and pointless.

Now there is some hope, the change I heard about changing oathfriend from 5/3/1 to 10/5/3 might help out grudge generation. HOWEVER, CHANGE back 10 second decay to 30 seconds.

Even at 30 seconds, grudge in ORVR is a pain to maintain, anything else will make Ironbreakers a joke in ORVR.
I'm sure that the 5/3/1 to 10/5/3 thing will work for you. Biggest problem prior to changes was IB at 100 grudge all the time acting as not only a tank and punting machine, but putting out much more damage than destruction side tanks and swordmasters. I tried an IB, and i have a chosen and black orc up to 25ish that I've tried and the IB does WAY more damage than either of those 2 can, not to mention has a knockdown on short cooldown and a punt....definitely needed a nerf, i'm sure the number system change thing will fix your temporary crying.

[waterbpu]

Lets look at the facts, shall we?

For a lot of the moves that have nothing to do with grudge, Black Orcs just do more damage
Grudging Blow (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1355) vs Clobber (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1664)
Vengeful Strike (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1357) vs Savin' Me Hide (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1677)
Guarded Attack (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1356) vs Tuffer 'n Nails (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1669)

The ones that improve with grudge are pretty much just better if the IB has any grudge at all.
Heavy Blow (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1354) vs Skull Thumper (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1676)
Stone Breaker (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1371) vs Wot Armor? (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1666)
Binding Grudge (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1358) vs Trip 'Em Up (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1670)
Rune-Etched Axe (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1366) vs Da Big Un' (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1678)



Do you even play a black orc? Now I don't play one, but I play a swordmaster. And if black orc is similar to swordmaster, their dmg get huge boost with mastery. While ironbreaker don't get much boost in dmg.

Now I'm not saying IB don't do huge dmg compare to black orc. Infact I don't know. But this is the most retarded comparison I ever see.

[tester13]

bo does about the same amount as an ib with 40 grudge (if grudge was linear and not broken into 4 stages) however, bo also has plans mechanic, which while bugged and restrictive provides bo with one ap free ability out of 3. So a bo would be able to use abilities for 33% longer than an ib. Bo also has a 50%crit damage tactic, which also increases damage. Lastly because of the way grudge works, if ib can't get to 100 grudge there will be things ib just can't do (like debuff an armor by 75%)

Is it really that bad? who knows, maybe if you get a new person to play 1.05 iron breaker, they will still have fun. it is however a huge nerf (mostly the decay timer, after they update test server to 10/6/3 grudge when oath friend is getting hit) which makes iron breakers a whole lot less fun to play compared to how they play now (in fact, the decay timer makes it almost unplayable)

Add to that an increase to rdps damage across the board + nerfs to healing, and it begs a question why play a severely nerfed ib when you can reroll an rdps and have fun? After all, the point of the game is to have fun.

Besides, how many people were complainig about ib's outside of horribly designed tor anroc scenario? Except a bit at release (t1 most likely) I can't remember any nerf calls to ib's. There are lots of nerf bw's and some nerf sorc, as well as a lot of nerf we's. Are iron breakers currently better than other tanks? well, they sure beat chosen's with their intel based abilities lol. But are they so game breaking and unbalanced to eat such a huge nerf?

I mean, even with 10/6/3 it will take 23 hits on oath friend to get to 100 grudge compared to the current 10, it also makes using grudge costing abilities at 100 grudge much more expansive (only 3 grudge per hit on aoth firend) than currently. Is 230%slower grudge generation not a good enaugh nerf? It will have a large impact on small scale fights (as your oath friend will die before you get to 100 grudge) and in large scale ib's are meaningless anyway since it's all about rpds and healers, tanks/melee iare just there to be farmed.

[Zunjin]

All I can say is this... did you leave feedback about all this? If not, go do so because chances of a dev noticing this post are probably low.

Best idea. Everyone here that is concerned about these changes and not european ( atleast until we also get access to test server ) should log in and try aswell. And more important, give feedback.

[Leman Russ]

Lets look at the facts, shall we?

For a lot of the moves that have nothing to do with grudge, Black Orcs just do more damage
Grudging Blow (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1355) vs Clobber (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1664)
Vengeful Strike (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1357) vs Savin' Me Hide (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1677)
Guarded Attack (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1356) vs Tuffer 'n Nails (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1669)

The ones that improve with grudge are pretty much just better if the IB has any grudge at all.
Heavy Blow (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1354) vs Skull Thumper (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1676)
Stone Breaker (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1371) vs Wot Armor? (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1666)
Binding Grudge (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1358) vs Trip 'Em Up (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1670)
Rune-Etched Axe (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1366) vs Da Big Un' (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1678)

And IB's of course have greater utility and CC, which admittedly is far less important than Damage in solo PvE. And IB's can use any of their abilities at any time. Their mechanic is a bonus, not a restriction.

So, in terms of damage, it looks like BOs have an advantage until the IB gets Grudge. Is that balanced? If it's as easy for IB's to get grudge as it is now (Live, I mean), no, not really, IB's are just better at everything. If IB's couldn't get grudge easily, then it's arguable. IB's get more utility and are a jillion times better at protecting others, so lower damage could be a reasonable tradeoff, but it's sort of unfair to gimp a class' ability to solo PvE for any reason, in this game at least.

So I guess the question is: Is it really that bad? If it is, it's a little extreme. Grudge shouldn't decay in combat, period. If it's not as bad as the OP says, which I'm slightly more inclined to believe, who knows?

Its difficult to compare the IB and the Blorc in the regard of sheer damage per ability. The problem here is that if the IB wanted to do a high damage ability he could do it whenever he wanted. The Blorc is bound by his plans and as such the abilities in these other parts of the plan necessarily have to be higher so as not to lock the Blorc down completely. Comparing Clobber with any of the other tank versions just isn't fair. Clobber is the Blorc's "no brainer" opener used for a lot more than just tanking, it would be the only opener really if not for "wot'armor" and the damage of that ability leaves a lot to be desired.

Really the comparison is even tougher because the Blorcs talent trees are one-way mostly. Skullthumper is completely replaced (at least before this 1.05 patch) by Savin' Me Hide due to mastery points in Da Toughest. The abilities you listed are compared on a total mastery basis and don't take specs into account. The workability of these abilities and which spec they fall into and whether these specs are actually viable or not comes under scrutiny, its not as simple as comparing abilities.

A quick correction though to a previous poster, Rising Anger tactic doesn't qualify as a grudge building ability as far as the mechanic is concerned (it builds grudge but it doesn't stop the system from resetting or stop a currently happening grudge reset). I accidently got to test this myself pretty undeniably and since Mythic hates fixing bugs, its pretty safe to say this problem is ongoing. On the topic of Rising Anger, I don't know why you don't just use the tactic. It seems to me that the primary issue here wasn't the reset (since you claim that you had oathfriend of the best possible targets) but the speed at which grudge was being gained. In response to the counterargument posed by this suggestion, you need to consider that many classes have tactics that they can't get rid of in any spec for a complete loss of effectiveness of their overall class. Ensorcelled Agony for Swordmasters, Quick Shootin' for Squig Herders, Bloodthirst for DoKs. You can argue against these being "necessary" but if you did some reseach you'd find the specs that don't utilize these tactics 100% of the time tend to complain of underpoweredness far more than those that do.

Also, a large proponent of the strengths of the Ironbreaker have been stated its ability to do large amounts of CC and survive. Correct me if I'm wrong but it doesn't seem any survival buffs are hurt by this change (Vengeful Strike, Guarded Attack). The disrupt increase from Inspiring Attack fell well below my expectations when I used it at 100 grudge in my ironbreaker at least, its a loss but a slight one since the ability really barely affected survivability at all. The biggest complaint I'm reading is building grudge past 75 (or maybe even 50 since no real numbers were stated). This leads me to believe grudge up to that point was still easy to get, so it doesn't seem like it hurts your group utility much either since no ability requires more than 30 grudge. Grudge abilities were supposed to be logical decisions that the caster knew would affect his combat performance which up til this point, they weren't. Also grudge doesn't affect any of your CC (Punishing Knock, Shield of Reprisal, Knock Ye Away whose grudge cost was just covered, and Runed Etchings). It affects the damage portion of some, but not the effectiveness of the CC.

Really it doesn't seem like this grudge mechanic, even based on some of the complaints posted, did anything more than tone down the DPS of the Ironbreaker which did need a tone down. Before more complaints happen about the class you should check into what other classes have to deal with like Ensorcelled Blow comparing with a 0 grudge Heavy Blow. Even with only a few grudge points, heavy blow is still the best offensive ability any tank has.

-edit- I forgot to add I agree completely that 10 seconds is a pretty harsh clock to go against. 30 seconds would be a lot more apt, especially considering the new difficulty in maxing grudge, but that's what feedback is for.

[tester13]

But everyone knows that sm's are underpowered (compared to say black orcs)

Regardless, the current grudge decay timer makes playign an iron breaker on test server extreamly frusturating compared to how it plays on live. Did ib's damage at 100 grudge need to be toned down? maybe, maybe not, how many threads are there of people complainign about ib's making the game/scenarios unplayable (except for stupid tor anroc) A lot less than there were about bw's and we's, yet both classes got a damage boost :) go figure. (though bw's got a few nerfs too, but not to damag)

The point is, if you played an ib before the patch, if the grudge decay rate goes live, playign an iron breaker will become very frusturating. Since mythic doesn't pay people to play, and people play to have fun, chances are people will play something else.

[Crode]

Shouldn't this be in the IB forums? Do we really need every class having it's own thread on the Combat Discussion forums?

We need a PTS subforum of course. But nobody has bothered to make one yet.:confused::confused::confused:

[Raok]

i'm actually happy with people coming with pts feedbacks to the forums -
i just wan't to ask about the effects of the improved oathfriend mechanic in pvp,
because that's something you have to take in account to.
sm/bo have to be wary in which stance they are in, juggling with oathfriend in order to maximise your performance would then be the new challenge of the ib in rvr.
that being said, i know it's awful when your class get's gimped in soloplay

[Leman Russ]

But everyone knows that sm's are underpowered (compared to say black orcs)

Regardless, the current grudge decay timer makes playign an iron breaker on test server extreamly frusturating compared to how it plays on live. Did ib's damage at 100 grudge need to be toned down? maybe, maybe not, how many threads are there of people complainign about ib's making the game/scenarios unplayable (except for stupid tor anroc) A lot less than there were about bw's and we's, yet both classes got a damage boost :) go figure. (though bw's got a few nerfs too, but not to damag)

The point is, if you played an ib before the patch, if the grudge decay rate goes live, playign an iron breaker will become very frusturating. Since mythic doesn't pay people to play, and people play to have fun, chances are people will play something else.

I had a feeling something like this would come up. I'll try and say this without taking a "holier than thou" stance.

I have only heard the outrage at the possible buff to BW/Sorc and admittedly I was one of them at first. The problem is the only thing they changed is the way their dots scale with int. Since no one has posted how these scale with int in any kind of formula (and the multiplicative values therein -are- in fact difference based on the evidence of some DoT downscaling in the patch) we don't know if its a small value like in melee of a 1.25 multiplier or a even less .10 multiplier. I haven't heard outrage from anyone -in- the PTS about BWs suddenly being better than ever and unsurmountable gods beyond the hyperbole we already had, it leads me to believe any increase in DoTs was an extreme marginal increase in damage, maybe less than a .05 increase in damage. Since I don't think anyone is decked in the best gear possible yet, I don't think anyone on this forum can really say that in the long haul these dots didn't need better scaling.

Although I can understand if someone feels they needed an across the board decrease in damage any increase even a .0001 increase would be outrageous to them. Not saying they don't need a damage decrease, I just want to see how the new changes to CC are going to function before I put the verdict out on that one. The changes to CC are a baby step in the absolute right direction and in all my experiences as a melee are the biggest obstacle to overcome, moreso than their damage.

As far as the DPS difference between IB and Blorc, I've yet to see any kind of numbers on DPS parsings actually calculated properly to lead me to believe blorcs have any kind of advantage over other tanks. For example, no one has yet to consider just how bad Wot Armor? is on the damage part of the debuff and how much overall damage they have to sacrafice in their opener stacking 5 of these. Or how the Black Orc finishers are awesome. Heck Skull Thumper is dwarfed by Dragon's Talon, and currently Wrath of Hoeth (soon to be Gusting Wind) humilates Da Big' Un (it requires a 2 hander remember), and these are abilities from the supposedly worthless and craptastic Swordmaster, this isn't even counting the odds of getting knocked out of your plan arbitrarily is 10x greater than swordmaster and I have -personally- tested this.

That said with this DPS decrease to IB's I'm hoping it has opened the door to something this game needs very badly: a real offensive tank. Currently in any spec tanks don't have any method at all of seriously threatening a players life. With Ironbreakers as they were it would make it very very difficult to do a big change to tank 2 handers since the high damage output would become far too high with a net change to the mechanic. With tank DPS more normalized, I'm really hoping this will lead to a revamp in 2 handers allowing all tanks access to a higher DPS, lower survivability set up. They'd still be weaker than pure DPSers, but still be more durable than they are. Also, if you look carefully at the trees and abilities of all the tanks (particularly swordmaster) you'd find it would appear this is Mythic's ultimate goal. Though I might be off base and giving them too much credit.

The fact is, you're right. People will play something else, but this was true before the grudge nerf. Tanks at this moment offer little to a player. I enjoy being in the enemy backline being useful and distrupting, but I don't think any tank will tell you its not frustrating being almost incapable of killing another player. The survivability is nice, but I don't have much that other classes don't. Its not just tanks that have knockbacks, knockdowns, roots, snares, disarms, and other forms of CC. In fact, a lot of classes have just as much as we do. What I feel tanks need more than anything is the option to increase their DPS substantially and become a real threat, not to MDPS standards, but something close. Look at the real differences between a tank and a heavy MDPS. The only real difference is some of the MDPS abilities have to do with maiming and incapacitating and the tank ones have to do more with reinforcing and debilititating enemy DPS. The only reason tanks are tanks and MDPS are MDPS is because of the armor factor and the biggest reason are the tactics. MDPS tactics are just better suited for DPS. This is exactly why an offensive tank spec is viable because if you aren't completely retarded, it really doesn't threaten the role of MDPS.

[jayleekay]

All I can say is this... did you leave feedback about all this? If not, go do so because chances of a dev noticing this post are probably low.


especially because of how emo it is.

[Leman Russ]

Just thought I'd add in how funny it is. Ironbreakers were the one tank thrilled to death with their mechanic and every other tank class thus far was frustrated with theirs. I guess the playing field has been leveled now lol.

[Seweryn]

first of many of these posts. no unexpected... change something in the design that one is used to for a month and of course there is going to hoopla. thanks for getting us started. now give it a week and learn to play with it this way and then come back and report. of course it is not going to work the same, so find ways of making it work.

and for the love of god, stop comparing black orcs to IBs. the only thing they have in common is the description of a tank. they do not operate even remotely similar.

[Siske]

Ironbreakers needed a nerf, if not to the grudge system then to all there values at 50 grudge +.

By nerfing IBs they make SMs better! All good to me :>

-Vaya

[Konah]

Am i the only one who uses the "+5 grudge everytime you hit someone" tactic ability?

Rising Anger http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1392 (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1392) use it, love it.

[Leman Russ]

first of many of these posts. no unexpected... change something in the design that one is used to for a month and of course there is going to hoopla. thanks for getting us started. now give it a week and learn to play with it this way and then come back and report. of course it is not going to work the same, so find ways of making it work.

and for the love of god, stop comparing black orcs to IBs. the only thing they have in common is the description of a tank. they do not operate even remotely similar.

The only thing they have in common is the description of tank. Ironbreakers buff their own defenses. Blorcs buff their own defenses.

Ironbreakers perform as durable tanks. Blorcs perform as durable tanks.

Blorcs are the natural main tank choice for Destruction. Ironbreakers are the natural main tank choice for Order.

Blorcs are shield specialists. Ironbreakers are shield specialists.

As you can see, IBs and Blorcs have a lot more in common than just the tank archetype. Play both before you say they are completely unrelated. You don't have to share a mechanic to be a mirror, the Black Guard is going to be closer to the Swordmaster than the Ironbreaker.

[Dravyn]

I'm sure that the 5/3/1 to 10/5/3 thing will work for you. Biggest problem prior to changes was IB at 100 grudge all the time acting as not only a tank and punting machine, but putting out much more damage than destruction side tanks and swordmasters. I tried an IB, and i have a chosen and black orc up to 25ish that I've tried and the IB does WAY more damage than either of those 2 can, not to mention has a knockdown on short cooldown and a punt....definitely needed a nerf, i'm sure the number system change thing will fix your temporary crying.

This is a lie, and a common one at that. IB that are tank specced, even at 100 grudge, do piss poor damage. The ones that are able to dish out the damage, the 2h venge specced, strength stacking IBs sacrifice all of their survivability to do so. I have one in high t3, and I die just as fast as any squishy, especially if there are sorcs on the field. heavy armor is next to worthless compared to medium or less after a certain point in the game due to all the armor reducing/ignoring abilities being deployed.

Every person in this thread that is giving the Op crap about the grudge mechanic has zero clue about just how stupefyingly gimped a low grudge IB is. And too many people like to make outlandish statements like "Ibs have all tank survivability and mdps dmg!!" which is complete BS. You can have one or the other, not both.

[jas72]

So whats the point of having a grudge mechanic if you want 100 grudge all the time. Why not just scrap grudge and base the skills you can use off of action points. It sounds to me like that's what that long winded whine was about. Having to manage your grudge...the horror.
nonsense please play the class before you comment

if you have to run in and melee 5-6 times before even having a basic grudge move you have no chance in PVP

Already at T3 the game is played by RDPS and I find my IB usless. Now if this 1.5 patch nerf is true there is no point at all to continue to play the class.

Good job I have already started an AM so I won't be starting from 0

[Boomstar]

nonsense please play the class before you comment

if you have to run in and melee 5-6 times before even having a basic grudge move you have no chance in PVP

Already at T3 the game is played by RDPS and I find my IB usless. Now if this 1.5 patch nerf is true there is no point at all to continue to play the class.

Good job I have already started an AM so I won't be starting from 0

So you are going to stop playing your IB to play a healing class... LOL.

Have fun.

[Zeebie]

The changes are awful and nearly all the t4 IB I played with today, were completely defeated by the change. I wouldn't mind if I could stay at 75-99 grudge (I'm still reasonable) but the fact is you can't. your grudge goes to 0, even if your chasing a healer, The problem with having to manage your OF, is that most the time you are in frontline, you can't see what happen to the people behind you.

The delay made IB impossible to play I did not stay above 30 grudge at all today, which means no punts, no major armour debuffs, no willpower buffs for our healers.

This 1 simple nerf effectively cut all our major skills to 50% damage and our buff/debuff power to 0.

now if someone came along and said right your class will have these 5 skills damage reduced by 50% , make your buffs 80% less effective and remove your one major CC skill. you would be crying blue murder too.

before you ask, yes we have all given feedback, but it won't mean much but it's been given in multiple ways.

[Rogoo]

Am i the only one who uses the "+5 grudge everytime you hit someone" tactic ability?

Rising Anger http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1392 (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1392) use it, love it.

Yeah this will probably become a mandatory tactic choice now, which is not a good think. Send your feedback people - it still isn't too late.

[afoaa]

I am worried that in their attempt to create class balance mythic is forgetting realm balance. Order is the underdog on practically all servers because the campaign is based on raw numbers brought to the field and order is the lesser populated realm on almost all servers.

So order need stronger classes in order to have a chance in open RvR else there is no point to play the game at all in the long run.

If there one day balance between the order and dest populations then yes you can balance classes on an equal basis but as the population imbalance is atm then things like this is going to hurt the game badly.

[Tiresias]

The changes to Grudge only hurt tank-speced Ironbreakers.

Let me say that again:

The changes to Grudge only hurt the tanking Ironbreakers.

It is the tank-speced Ironbreakers, like me, that are constantly Grudge-starved. I have to maintain the following Grudge-dependent buffs to give myself the survivability necessary to hold a front line in Tier 4:

Vengeful Strike - 10 Grudge
Stubborn as Stone - 5 Grudge
Oathbound - 30 Grudge

In addition, I make use of the following skills to keep myself and my team alive:

Away with Ye - 40 Grudge
Watch An' Learn - 30 Grudge


Compare this to an Ironbreaker who is set up to DPS:

Ancestor's Fury - 15 Grudge
Stubborn As Stone - 5 Grudge

That's it. It's the DPS Ironbreakers that are holding at 100 Grudge, and this upcoming patch won't change that much because they have little to spend the Grudge on. It's the tanking Ironbreakers that will be hurt most seriously by this terrible change.

[solarbear]

black orcs do great damage and dont need grudge now how is that not oped?

They half less CC and actually have to manage their combos in order to use their better skills. Yours have always been readily available to you. Now you have to manage something.

Maybe the 10 sec is too short. It sounds a bit short. Leave some feedback.

[Mehter]

Yeah this will probably become a mandatory tactic choice now, which is not a good think. Send your feedback people - it still isn't too late.


Here's the thing with Rising Anger. Yes, you will get 5 grudge for hitting someone. However, that 10 second grudge decay still kicks in if someone doesn't hit you or your Oath Friend. So you can wail on someone/something all you want, but that 5 grudge is going to dissapear if something doesn't hit you back. And at -10 Grudge/Second, you're going even going to make it to 10 grudge fast enough to watch it dissapear.

And yes, you do lose grudge while you're in combat, whoever said that earlier. The countdown starts from the last time you were hit, so you can be Axe Throwing while chasing someone all you want; your grudge is still going to be gone if they don't fight back.

Also, having Grudge isn't exactly a luxury that we sometimes have the good fortune to have. We can't use half our defensive abilities to defend ANYTHING if we don't have the grudge to do it with. I don't care about damage- If I wanted to DPS things, I would've rolled a DPS class. I stay on the front line, or near healers depending on the situation. But if I'm in the back with the Oath Friend on my healer, I'm going to have 0 grudge when a Marauder or WE jumps on my healer- and I'm not going to be able to do anything about it bar slapping Guard up and hope he doesn't do enough damage to kill him before I can do anything worthwhile about it.

[harkan]

10 seconds is fine, its not IB is the only one with decaying "points" both wh and we's got it to.

i think alot of ppl said it: dont scavage.

[Mehter]

10 seconds is fine, its not IB is the only one with decaying "points" both wh and we's got it to.

i think alot of ppl said it: dont scavage.

Because 5 Accusations = 100 Grudge amirite?

Your Accusations also effect your Executions, which are meant to be finishing moves. That's a wee bit different then having Accusations power your main attack.

And we're not allowed to have Scavenging because we decided to play a certain class? Seems fair.

Yes, we needed toning down. That doesn't mean we should be useless.

And to all the Chosen out there- I've never played one, but I've heard the horror stories. Just because your class is broke is no reason to run off and break another one. The answer should be to bring yours up to what an IronBreaker can do. No reason to have all broken tanks that can't do anything except die from magic attacks.

[harkan]

Because 5 Accusations = 100 Grudge amirite?

Your Accusations also effect your Executions, which are meant to be finishing moves. That's a wee bit different then having Accusations power your main attack.

And we're not allowed to have Scavenging because we decided to play a certain class? Seems fair.

Yes, we needed toning down. That doesn't mean we should be useless.

And to all the Chosen out there- I've never played one, but I've heard the horror stories. Just because your class is broke is no reason to run off and break another one. The answer should be to bring yours up to what an IronBreaker can do. No reason to have all broken tanks that can't do anything except die from magic attacks.

5 accusation is abit over 6 seconds worth of spamming on the mob, in the case of random mobs they are most likely dead or near dead when you use those points for an execution.

HOWEVER, the point i made is that 10 seconds IS fine, the time before the decay starts ticking is not hard to handle and actually having to resource manage something is more than right. Its pretty easy, you chainpull as much as you can take then while healing you scavage, there look amazing concept now you can do both and hi btw and welcome to the world the rest of us lived in, it must be hard not getting to be op.

[Kopatch]

This is driving me crazy. New rule: If you don't play an IB, do not comment on what grudge is primarily used for.

THIS NERF HURTS TANK IB'S WAAAAY MORE THAN DPS IB'S

Why do people not get this yet, even though it's been said a million times.

..ya christ people...

[Mehter]

5 accusation is abit over 6 seconds worth of spamming on the mob, in the case of random mobs they are most likely dead or near dead when you use those points for an execution.

HOWEVER, the point i made is that 10 seconds IS fine, the time before the decay starts ticking is not hard to handle and actually having to resource manage something is more than right. Its pretty easy, you chainpull as much as you can take then while healing you scavage, there look amazing concept now you can do both and hi btw and welcome to the world the rest of us lived in, it must be hard not getting to be op.


Honestly I don't care about PvE, and chain pulling people in ORvR doesn't work all that well now does it?

If you read what I said, then you know we aren't able to do our jobs as tanks if we don't have grudges. Which is easily done if no one attacks us. You have control over your Accusations, we need a hat with a huge arrow pointing to us reading "Hit me pretty please <3's"

Try playing an Ironbreaker to 40, and then tell me 10 seconds is fine. I don't think you'd like your accusations falling off because you didn't attack someone within 10 seconds, even though you're still in combat. I've played a Witch Hunter to 20, I like to think I know the basics of the class.

[Ska]

maybe it is a bit harsh and they need to tone it abit, but dont forget you are tanks, you are meet shields, the dmg you are doing now "on live" is absolutly much more then a tank should be making. you need to be there take the hits and disturb thats all. so drop the 2 hander get your shield up.
This is driving me crazy. New rule: If you don't play an IB, do not comment on what grudge is primarily used for.

THIS NERF HURTS TANK IB'S WAAAAY MORE THAN DPS IB'S

Why do people not get this yet, even though it's been said a million times.

[Rakavich]

I am shocked at the amount of idiots that dont actually think beyond their own character, totally stupid and selfish.. Dont you get it ... everyone hates nerfs especially to their own class.

Nerfs = less playing that class and also less playing WAR

Less playing a core class like a tank = more pain and frustration for thier realm..= more people leaving WAR or swapping realms..

the more Order that leave or worse swap sides to destro means WAR get closer and closer to the Zapper...!!!

I guess alot of people want to play a RvR MMO vs NPCs only...

[Mehter]

This is driving me crazy. New rule: If you don't play an IB, do not comment on what grudge is primarily used for.

THIS NERF HURTS TANK IB'S WAAAAY MORE THAN DPS IB'S

Why do people not get this yet, even though it's been said a million times.


I think the main problem is, most people just don't want to listen. They see the Vengeful specced level 11 and level 21 IBs running around mutilating everything in sight, and automatically cry foul.

Those guys are going to continue doing what they're doing. The only difference is it'll take them slightly longer to get there. Us defensive IBs will see a healer getting lit up, and all we can do is say "Sorry, I'm not damage spec'd so I don't have enough grudge to help ya out. Try not to die though, you're getting me a decent amount of grudge. Maybe next time I'll be able to punt them."

[bigaxeelf]

"Healers and tanks are rare, so let's nerf them and buff RDPS even further!"

GREAT SUCCESS

[unrivall]

I am shocked at the amount of idiots that dont actually think beyond their own character, totally stupid and selfish.. Dont you get it ... everyone hates nerfs especially to their own class.

Nerfs = less playing that class and also less playing WAR

Less playing a core class like a tank = more pain and frustration for thier realm..= more people leaving WAR or swapping realms..

the more Order that leave or worse swap sides to destro means WAR get closer and closer to the Zapper...!!!

I guess alot of people want to play a RvR MMO vs NPCs only...


*Edited for content*

[Zeebie]

This is driving me crazy. New rule: If you don't play an IB, do not comment on what grudge is primarily used for.

THIS NERF HURTS TANK IB'S WAAAAY MORE THAN DPS IB'S

Why do people not get this yet, even though it's been said a million times.


get off your high horse, it affect all IB, go onto test center and respec into all 3 area, them come back and talk.

the DPS IB won't be DPS, because he won't maintain his grudge it doesn't work.. I have tried it.

the Stone IB also won't be able to do his job.. not only does he lack an earthshatter or a powered etch axe, or a cave in CC, his shield CC need him to be hit. and that means his only CC is really Away with Ye which at 40 grudge is dreaming

Brotherhood spec doesn't do too bad, but once again need's the grudge for his skills to be useful.

This nerf affects all 3 IB mastery tree's at once, and it's not a small nerf to just 1 thing.. it effects the very nature of our class, our class is designed to have 75 grudge nearly all the time, 100 you get a bit extra power, before 75 you aren't effective. That's our class asset we are SUPPOSE to get stronger the longer a fight goes on, but now we get weaker, we start weak, we get to below par, then go back to being weak when people retreat

[bigaxeelf]

It's a good thing they nerfed those massively overpowered IBs going around 2-3 shotting people. Oh and healing was just way too powerful, it's like nobody ever died before 1.05!

[Vistakah]

Ironbreakers needed a nerf, if not to the grudge system then to all there values at 50 grudge +.

This is laughable coming from arguably the strongest tank in the game the BO ;).

[Scoop]

All I'm seeing is "Bawwww I want 100 grudge all the time so i can do imba dps!".

Noone has ever said that. You only make yourself look like an idiot in need of basic debating skills.

If grudge is resetting while you still are in combat thats different thing.

It is.

Basically though you want everything to stay the same to keep your overpowered status, very long winded but that is the gist of it.

You read what you want to read, and apparently you don't read very well at that.

10 seconds is fine, its not IB is the only one with decaying "points" both wh and we's got it to.

1) WH/WEs can control their class mechanic build-up and do not rely on others to hit them (which, as a tank, is often the last thing they do)

2) WH/WEs can build up their points in a matter of seconds

3) WH/WEs have no role other than constantly hitting an opponent. There is no reason whatsoever that they would ever want to, say, hang around and protect another vital player or focus on applying buffs to their defensive target

i think alot of ppl said it: dont scavage.

While this is perhaps the last concern for most IBs, do you find it acceptable that a career's core mechanic makes certain tradeskills unusable?



I will happily agree that the IB could be in need of some adjustments. Crippling their class mechanic is not the solution. Not only does it make the class vastly less powerful, Mythic has now also succeeded in sucking any fun out of playing an IB.

[Juno]

So I was at my friends house and tested PTS on my IB.

Now I believe many of you have read my previous post about my concerns about the 1.05 changes, and now I've played on the PTS, all I have to say is this.

I didn't know it was possible but playing on 1.05 PTS as a IB was WORSE than I predicted. It was the most unpleasant and frustrating experience I've had ever in WAR and it left such a bad taste in my mouth that I don't think I'm going to go back to PTS anytime soon.

I'll explain in two parts, how 1.05 was so horrible in poth PVE and PVP.

PVE
... THE 10 SECOND DECAY IS BRUTAL. Change it back to 30 seconds.

On live, grinding mobs for PQs or leveling has been acceptable as a IB. Now on 1.05 it's more frustrating than PVP on live.

By the time I kill a mob, I have around 50-70 grudge right. Then I scavenge it, and by the time I move to a new mob I back down to 0 grudge!!! The only way to counter this is to pull multiple mobs, but don't plan to even loot or scavenge them after you kill them or else you'll be back to 0 grudge again for the next pull. THIS IS RIDICULOUS!

Also on live I use cave in, my 4 second knockdown to finish off mobs in case they run. Now on 1.05, I use cave in and I find myself losing grudge WHILE looting/scavenging... now I'm hesitant to even use cave in, because they stop hitting while knockdown. the 4 second knockdown eats up 40% of my 10 second decay timer for the next pull.

Also I tried some PVE bosses (BFOs) on 1.05. I decided to off tank, we killed the champs and pulled the hero (there were only like 3 of us). I decided to test my oathfriend to simulate some PVE boss fights, it took over 2 minutes for me to get 100 grudge!! wtf. My best ability is Stonebreaker 25% armor reduction at 0 grudge, 75% reduction at 100 grudge. To have to wait over 2 minutes to get up to 75% armor reduction while a black orc can spam 5 buttons in less than 8 seconds to get the same thing... this is insane.

Fighting every mob at 0 grudge all the time and having all my abilities gimped is probably the most unfun and frustating thing ever... actually not true... I havent even got to the PVP in 1.05... it gets alot worse.

PVP
... THE 10 SECOND DECAY IS BRUTAL. Change it back to 30 seconds.

Didn't do much ORVR, but I have trouble keeping grudge in ORVR on live, can't imagine how it is now...

OK I did do a couple of serpents passage and I'll report the experiences I had there. Like always I was ignored 99% of the time because well... I'm a tank.

To sum it up...

chasing healer, before I know it, down to 0 grudge while chasing and hitting the healer.

Enemy team decides to retreat... down to 0 grudge again while chasing them.

Rooted... down to 0 grudge.

Snared/kited... down to 0 grudge.

... I think you get the picture.

Also it takes a ridiculous amount of time to get to 100 grudge... wait I don't even think I even hit 100 grudge even once even while switching oathfriends all the time.

I take that back, the only time I hit 100 grudge was when I got focused fired and died just as I hit 100 grudge. Ironic thing is, I had 5 stacks of break armor on me in no time by a black orc for 75% of my armor gone in no time when they decided to focus fire me. I wasn't able to reduce someone's armor by 75% even once.

Conclusion
PTS is the worst gaming experience I've had in a while. Playing as a ironbreaker was not fun... not for a bit. Grudge management seemed like a job/chore/headache and I couldn't even concentrate helping my team because I'm always focused on my grudge. Funny thing is, the 10 second decay made all my attempts trying to manage my grudge futile and pointless.

Now there is some hope, the change I heard about changing oathfriend from 5/3/1 to 10/5/3 might help out grudge generation. HOWEVER, CHANGE back 10 second decay to 30 seconds.

Even at 30 seconds, grudge in ORVR is a pain to maintain, anything else will make Ironbreakers a joke in ORVR.

GOOD.

IB's needed a nerf big time - and hopefully this is it.

"Grudge management" as you put it was non-existant before these changes, you just spammed your best abilities without thought. Now hopefully you will be more tactical in your usage of skills.

If you think playing IB on the PTS is frustrating, try playing a BO with our crappy Plan system.

[Scoop]

"Grudge management" as you put it was non-existant before these changes, you just spammed your best abilities without thought. Now hopefully you will be more tactical in your usage of skills.

Adjustment was needed. Massive, class-crippling nerf from one extreme to the other was not. IBs now have trouble even reaching the higher end of their Grudge pool, ever, and will lose it in moments most of the time. What you need to remember is that we have little control over our own class mechanic, and now it has become exceedingly difficult to build it up even under normal PvP conditions. Another thing to note which, while less important in this game, is still a factor: Ironbreakers will become guaranteed free kills in 1v1 for anyone capable of rooting, kiting or healing themselves. There is no conceivable way an Ironbreaker can beat any class that can cause him to lose all his Grudge several times throughout a fight.

[Demon2k3]

Noone has ever said that. You only make yourself look like an idiot in need of basic debating skills.



It is.



You read what you want to read, and apparently you don't read very well at that.



1) WH/WEs can control their class mechanic build-up and do not rely on others to hit them (which, as a tank, is often the last thing they do)

2) WH/WEs can build up their points in a matter of seconds

3) WH/WEs have no role other than constantly hitting an opponent. There is no reason whatsoever that they would ever want to, say, hang around and protect another vital player or focus on applying buffs to their defensive target



While this is perhaps the last concern for most IBs, do you find it acceptable that a career's core mechanic makes certain tradeskills unusable?



I will happily agree that the IB could be in need of some adjustments. Crippling their class mechanic is not the solution. Not only does it make the class vastly less powerful, Mythic has now also succeeded in sucking any fun out of playing an IB.

You got a point here, I play a BW myself and i can build somewhat of a combustion pre battle. All good and jolly there. Also there is a difference between controllable mechanics and uncontrollable ones.

I don't have a ironbreaker, but i did play a warrior tank in WoW. Yes i said WoW just hear me out please. When i tanked and got better and better gear, i started to have something called rage starvation. Rage starvation means you didn't have rage to use your high threat/damage abilities. Now i can see the same for many IB's out there, They reach certain grudge and then it falls down again.

Now it's not the same thing, not even the same games, but playing a mechanic that relies on a certain mechanic, A mechanic that relies on them or their oathfriend getting hit. It is a major blow to them if they can't build up a steady grudge.

I agree grudge shouldn't stay at 100 forever like when it did at 30 seconds. But 10 is very harsh. Make the grudge decay at 15-20 seconds instead. This will balance them out alot better. 10 seconds is fine IF you have a career that can maintain it's mechanic åre combat or builds it up by hitting others, such as WH/Bw.

But i feel bad for IB's if this change goes through, I found the game fairly balanced before this patch. But If all this stuff hits, the game will turn into Warhammer : Age of ranged. This worries me as i will be making a KotBS to my new main.

So make the grudge decay timer longer, but don't make it 30 seconds. Or there will be alot of "grudge starved" IB's out there if it stays at 10 seconds.

[Cleofis]

I joked with some friends that they'd nerf IB just before BG got put in...

[Merfy]

It's different, ironbreaker pretty much do no dmg with 0 grudge. But BW still do decent dmg with 0 combustion.

Also, I use meltdown alot for solo pve with my BW, because I don't even want 100 combustion. But I always want 100 grudge on my ironbreaker.

At 0-30 grudge their abilites are on par with the other tanks. When they start getting into the higher amounts of grudge their moves surpass others tanks by a ridiculous amount.

Now I would have rather seem other tanks buffed instead of this, but the fact remains that a change was needed.

[zilfer]

Instead of fixing chosen, they make Ironbreakers suck just as much. Hoo-frakkin-raah.

Now we can run around being non-factors together.

Chosen & IB best friends forever.

[Scoop]

At 0-30 grudge their abilites are on par with the other tanks. When they start getting into the higher amounts of grudge their moves surpass others tanks by a ridiculous amount.

No. At 0-30 Grudge, an IB's abilities are perhaps on par with the first of the combo moves that BO/SM have. At higher Grudge, the abilities will slightly surpass those of corresponding careers, but the IB also relies on their enemies to do the work for them. You can't just use one attack, then the next, then another and control your power progress yourself. IBs do not "surpass other tanks by a ridiculous amount", they may have had a slight advantage that should be re-adjusted, but the current state of the career on the PTS is nearly unplayable. You practically never have more than 70 Grudge, and you lose most of it whenever you get rooted, knockbacked, nobody decides to hit you or your Oath Friend, or God forbid you find the need to do anything other than jumping up and down in front of your enemies hoping that they'll attack you. The Guard ability will become all but useless since you simply do not have the ability to consistently stick close to a target who needs guarding without also losing almost all of your power.

[Xox]

What hurts me the most to be honest is all the people who helped to contribute to this situation via nerf threads, negative feed back etc.
The truth is that IBs and BOs are the only tanks really well balanced in this game and I'm especially talking about t3 and t4 here.
The current situation and what should be done is:
1. They shouldn't nerf classes like the promised they wouldn't so I'm asking what happened to their "buff only policy"?
2. They should fix BOs broken plan system and leave them
3. They should buff Chosen and SM to bring them up to speed.
4.They should listen less to incessant whines and play test themselves.
5. They should tone down IBs in t1 and t2 which is where the real gripe is with them.
6. They should remember that it's already a problem getting people to play mdps so nerfing classes in that department especially while buffing rdps, can't lead to anything positive.
7. Finally, they should focus on fixing gamebreaking bugs before "adjusting" classes.

I for one am rolling rdps now since Mark stated that they will stay class cannons with immense damage capabilities and that will not change. But then again he also stated that they wouldn't nerf classes...

[jin23]

Well if its consolation the Black Guard will be just as annoying!

[Dravyn]

GOOD.

IB's needed a nerf big time - and hopefully this is it.

"Grudge management" as you put it was non-existant before these changes, you just spammed your best abilities without thought. Now hopefully you will be more tactical in your usage of skills.

If you think playing IB on the PTS is frustrating, try playing a BO with our crappy Plan system.

have you played an IB, or are you just spewing? Please, go ahead and elaborate on just why you feel that IB's "needed a nerf big time".

Before you start, know that the following statement:


"Grudge management" as you put it was non-existant before these changes, you just spammed your best abilities without thought. Now hopefully you will be more tactical in your usage of skills.

is a load of horse manure, coming from a class envy grass is greener Black Orc. Believe me, IB are jealous of your lack of grudge dependency and your ungodly 10 sec cd massive self heal. Shall we go into that?

You people need to get over this nerfmania bs. Every single person here that has said some crap about IB being overpowered and dishing mdps dmg while maintaining tank status is misinformed and clueless and makes it plainly obvious every time they speak that they have zero clue how an Ib works. Some more bandwagon "i died to an IB" nerf bs. Guess what, I've died to BO's too. Guess we should nerf them.


At 0-30 grudge their abilites are on par with the other tanks. When they start getting into the higher amounts of grudge their moves surpass others tanks by a ridiculous amount.

Now I would have rather seem other tanks buffed instead of this, but the fact remains that a change was needed.

Are you serious? Before you start making outlandish claims like this, try actually playing a "0-30" grudge IB and find out what gimp really is, especially in pvp. Some of you people are amazing.

[bigaxeelf]

Well if its consolation the Black Guard will be just as annoying!

From what I understand, the Black Guard will have a 'Hated Enemy' target rather than an 'Oath Friend', allowing them to build Hatred (aka Grudges) by beating on their target and presumably also their target hitting them. Thus they are going to be much more offensive based and not have to worry about whether they are getting beat on or not.

[Donton21]

HOWEVER, the point i made is that 10 seconds IS fine, the time before the decay starts ticking is not hard to handle and actually having to resource manage something is more than right. Its pretty easy, you chainpull as much as you can take then while healing you scavage, there look amazing concept now you can do both and hi btw and welcome to the world the rest of us lived in, it must be hard not getting to be op.

From what i see here your basing "balance" around PVE in a PVP game, cause that makes sense.

[azrael109]

These changes are indeed horrible and will leave order stuck with no "good" tanking classes. Really wish we could get BOs.

All who thinks 0-30 grudge damage is on par with other tanks are so seriously wrong that it really shows they dont know what they are talking about. 50 is on par with the others and 75+ is a little bit better, not huge winning DPS that ppl seem to think.

But so far it looks like going RDPS is the only way to keep playing.

[MetalVile]

Maybe its just me, but wouldn't this whole problem with tanking IB's losing grudge too fast because no one is hitting them/oathfriend be solved with a simple fix?

Make decay of grudge (at 10 seconds) begin when the IB is NO LONGER IN COMBAT as opposed to if no one hits JUST HIM/HIS FRIEND for the 10 seconds.

I think this would solve everything personally, because i know im constantly stuck in combat on my chosen because im trying to change my damn morale abilities and can't because a group member over 100 ft away is making me in combat.

[celerina]

Lets look at the facts, shall we?

For a lot of the moves that have nothing to do with grudge, Black Orcs just do more damage
Grudging Blow (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1355) vs Clobber (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1664)
Vengeful Strike (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1357) vs Savin' Me Hide (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1677)
Guarded Attack (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1356) vs Tuffer 'n Nails (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1669)

The ones that improve with grudge are pretty much just better if the IB has any grudge at all.
Heavy Blow (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1354) vs Skull Thumper (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1676)
Stone Breaker (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1371) vs Wot Armor? (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1666)
Binding Grudge (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1358) vs Trip 'Em Up (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1670)
Rune-Etched Axe (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1366) vs Da Big Un' (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1678)

And IB's of course have greater utility and CC, which admittedly is far less important than Damage in solo PvE. And IB's can use any of their abilities at any time. Their mechanic is a bonus, not a restriction.

So, in terms of damage, it looks like BOs have an advantage until the IB gets Grudge. Is that balanced? If it's as easy for IB's to get grudge as it is now (Live, I mean), no, not really, IB's are just better at everything. If IB's couldn't get grudge easily, then it's arguable. IB's get more utility and are a jillion times better at protecting others, so lower damage could be a reasonable tradeoff, but it's sort of unfair to gimp a class' ability to solo PvE for any reason, in this game at least.

So I guess the question is: Is it really that bad? If it is, it's a little extreme. Grudge shouldn't decay in combat, period. If it's not as bad as the OP says, which I'm slightly more inclined to believe, who knows?

Why would IB and Black Orcs be balanced? They are not mirrors.

Its kind of like saying Archmage and Zealot should be balanced.

[Lyability]

congratulations on reading my post and posting constructive feedback

Careful man, I get infractions for this all the time. Appearently idiots are allowed to post whatever they want and as soon as someone steps up to point out their idiocracy, you get an infraction...

Anyway, good read, and it is what I expected. Unfortunatly, you not going to get destro support because they have no idea what you are talking about. Wait until the BG comes in, THEN, providing that there is true balance between the BG and IB, destro will start to understand.

You're fighting an uphill battle against forces that outnumber us as most people still play Destro, and the class mechanic in use with the IB ins't in game yet for destro. Yeah... I'm saying it moderators: they are too stupid to understand what's going on. So go ahead and send me another PM for saying what needed to be said.

[Msaka]

Maybe its just me, but wouldn't this whole problem with tanking IB's losing grudge too fast because no one is hitting them/oathfriend be solved with a simple fix?

Make decay of grudge (at 10 seconds) begin when the IB is NO LONGER IN COMBAT as opposed to if no one hits JUST HIM/HIS FRIEND for the 10 seconds.

I think this would solve everything personally, because i know im constantly stuck in combat on my chosen because im trying to change my damn morale abilities and can't because a group member over 100 ft away is making me in combat.

This is obviously the answer.
They said that they were putting the update on a test server because you can only work so much out on a spreadsheet.
Give them a chance to fine tune it people. They put the test update out on a weekend to let people see how it worked, they are going to come in Monday morning and see what needs adjusting.

[PinkysBrain]

When this goes live and is then followed by the destruction mirror building grudge by doing damage (ie. won't have any trouble getting to 100) it's going to be a fun time on the boards.

[Lesane]

When this goes live and is then followed by the destruction mirror building grudge by doing damage (ie. won't have any trouble getting to 100) it's going to be a fun time on the boards.
when that happens I'm stopping by their HQ and it will not be a friendly visit >_<

[zilfer]

And IB's can use any of their abilities at any time. Their mechanic is a bonus, not a restriction.

Wrong. The gist of our most important defensive abilities cost grudge (including Vengeful Strike (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1357), which I assume you conveniently ignored) and are therefore no less restricted than a BOs plan-bound actions*. The prudent observer will also note that half of the skills you listed as objectively better with grudge cost no AP on the BO-side.

Edit: * One might even argue that they are more restricted; seeing as an IB might be denied grudge altogether, whereas a BO is in control of his plan.

[bigaxeelf]

The solution is to roll a Blackguard, duh.

Once BGs are in the game, every Destro on the forums will defend their Hatred mechanic (building up as you hit your Hated Enemy) as being perfectly balanced, after having laughed and gloated over IBs being nerfed hard.

Then Order will have a triumvirate of bad tanks, all worse than their mirror. Ok, maybe Chosen/Kotbs is a tossup - they will probably both still suck.

[Bakel]

Lets look at the facts, shall we?

For a lot of the moves that have nothing to do with grudge, Black Orcs just do more damage
Grudging Blow (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1355) vs Clobber (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1664)
Vengeful Strike (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1357) vs Savin' Me Hide (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1677)
Guarded Attack (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1356) vs Tuffer 'n Nails (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1669)

The ones that improve with grudge are pretty much just better if the IB has any grudge at all.
Heavy Blow (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1354) vs Skull Thumper (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1676)
Stone Breaker (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1371) vs Wot Armor? (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1666)
Binding Grudge (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1358) vs Trip 'Em Up (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1670)
Rune-Etched Axe (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1366) vs Da Big Un' (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1678)

And IB's of course have greater utility and CC, which admittedly is far less important than Damage in solo PvE. And IB's can use any of their abilities at any time. Their mechanic is a bonus, not a restriction.

So, in terms of damage, it looks like BOs have an advantage until the IB gets Grudge. Is that balanced? If it's as easy for IB's to get grudge as it is now (Live, I mean), no, not really, IB's are just better at everything. If IB's couldn't get grudge easily, then it's arguable. IB's get more utility and are a jillion times better at protecting others, so lower damage could be a reasonable tradeoff, but it's sort of unfair to gimp a class' ability to solo PvE for any reason, in this game at least.

So I guess the question is: Is it really that bad? If it is, it's a little extreme. Grudge shouldn't decay in combat, period. If it's not as bad as the OP says, which I'm slightly more inclined to believe, who knows?



Look at the cost and cooldowns on those abilities. Big differences.

[Dz131]

Look at the cost and cooldowns on those abilities. Big differences.


Except BO need to go through 2 more attacks to get their 3rd one. Where as IBs can just use it right of the bat when ever necessary

[Bakel]

Disregarding that they are NOT mirror classes, you're saying it is fair and balanced that a BO can get to 75% armor reduction by spamming one move, while an IB has to wait for OVER 2 minutes of his oathfriend getting hit to achieve the same effect?

You're also overlooking the whole 'BO can heal!' while IBs get 'I get action points back'.

Dont forget that it costs 40 grudge to get those points back, which is honestly a stupid move for any IB to use after the patch. The grudge is FAR too costly.

You're also overlooking that while the BO has to progress through his plans, he can do it when he WANTS to. He doesnt have to rely on someone feeding him the plans. He can still build up his moves, even if NO ONE IS HITTING HIM. (caps for stress!) The ironbreaker relies on someone hitting him for anything.

[Draxas]

These changes are indeed horrible and will leave order stuck with no "good" tanking classes. Really wish we could get BOs.

All who thinks 0-30 grudge damage is on par with other tanks are so seriously wrong that it really shows they dont know what they are talking about. 50 is on par with the others and 75+ is a little bit better, not huge winning DPS that ppl seem to think.

But so far it looks like going RDPS is the only way to keep playing.
What's this about needing 50 grudge just to be on par with other tank classes' damage? Hmm let's see...Heavy Blow (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1354) vs. Ravage (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8323)

Last I checked, 150 does not equal 150+147. In fact at ZERO Grudge we can clearly see that IB damage is on par with Chosen damage. The fact that Ravage is spiritual damage is also a downside in comparison when you consider that Ironbreakers get an armor debuff that goes up to 75%. People will no doubt mention the Black Orc as well, so here we go. Clobber (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1664) and Skull Thumper (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1676) are a couple of the more straight up damage abilities. Clobber is the only spammable one, and while Skull Thumper has no AP cost, it is hindered by the awkward Plan system, and to use it you have to miss out on some other attack you might want to use, whereas Ironbreakers can use any of their abilities on demand without having to wait 3 seconds of being in melee range of an opponent to reach that state.

Mind you, Ironbreaker is supposedly the "defensive" tank on the Order side, and in fact they are, yet they still have more damage than any other tank except for a Black Orc who goes down their offensive tree, wields a two hander and uses up 3 tactic slots, whereas the IB gets this damage by default and currently on live, getting to 100 Grudge is ridiculously easy, and when they get there they do very respectable damage with sword and board, something which no other tank can do. So they have tons of defensive power, the best CC of any tank, and the best damage of any tank while wielding sword and board. In summary, quit whining about being subpar or even on even par with other tanks, it is completely unfounded, you are the best tank in the game by a FAR margin and had an adjustment coming to Grudge generation. Granted the current patch to it is a bit harsh but they've stated that they're going to adjust it to 10/5/3 gain instead of 5/3/1. 10 seconds for it to decay is also too harsh, it should be raised to 30 seconds again.

[Bakel]

What's this about needing 50 grudge just to be on par with other tank classes' damage? Hmm let's see...Heavy Blow (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1354) vs. Ravage (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8323)

Last I checked, 150 does not equal 150+147. In fact at ZERO Grudge we can clearly see that IB damage is on par with Chosen damage. The fact that Ravage is spiritual damage is also a downside in comparison when you consider that Ironbreakers get an armor debuff that goes up to 75%. People will no doubt mention the Black Orc as well, so here we go. Clobber (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1664) and Skull Thumper (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1676) are a couple of the more straight up damage abilities. Clobber is the only spammable one, and while Skull Thumper has no AP cost, it is hindered by the awkward Plan system, and to use it you have to miss out on some other attack you might want to use, whereas Ironbreakers can use any of their abilities on demand without having to wait 3 seconds of being in melee range of an opponent to reach that state.

Mind you, Ironbreaker is supposedly the "defensive" tank on the Order side, and in fact they are, yet they still have more damage than any other tank except for a Black Orc who goes down their offensive tree, wields a two hander and uses up 3 tactic slots, whereas the IB gets this damage by default and currently on live, getting to 100 Grudge is ridiculously easy, and when they get there they do very respectable damage with sword and board, something which no other tank can do. So they have tons of defensive power, the best CC of any tank, and the best damage of any tank while wielding sword and board. In summary, quit whining about being subpar or even on even par with other tanks, it is completely unfounded, you are the best tank in the game by a FAR margin and had an adjustment coming to Grudge generation. Granted the current patch to it is a bit harsh but they've stated that they're going to adjust it to 10/5/3 gain instead of 5/3/1. 10 seconds for it to decay is also too harsh, it should be raised to 30 seconds again.


In the first ability you listed, the chosen one isnt limited by the armor of the guy you're attacking.

But the Ironbreaker's is.


Now, we all know that Chosen suck, since their attacks are based on int, and no tank specs for that stat.. but chosen abilities sucking isnt a reason to bring down another tank.

As far as BO, once again.. they aren't a mirror class. If you want to compare IBs having more damage, I can say that BOs have more survivability. They can heal themselves. =P

Going tit for tat on any of these classes is really just a waste of time.

Personally, I'd be fine with a bit more grudge from people hitting my oathfriend, and less of a decay, and having that decay start ONLY out of combat. As it stands right now, it starts the moment someone stops feeding me grudge.

[caj190]

congratulations on reading my post and posting constructive feedback

Iron Breaker does need a nerf and you know it! You can spam you grudge attacks all the time (playing my Alt Iron Breaker was insane with the Grudge at max 90% of the time) with a 30 second cool down... so please.. balance-hammer has hit you like it does with every class.

[Draxas]

In the first ability you listed, the chosen one isnt limited by the armor of the guy you're attacking.

But the Ironbreaker's is.


Now, we all know that Chosen suck, since their attacks are based on int, and no tank specs for that stat.. but chosen abilities sucking isnt a reason to bring down another tank.

As far as BO, once again.. they aren't a mirror class. If you want to compare IBs having more damage, I can say that BOs have more survivability. They can heal themselves. =P

Going tit for tat on any of these classes is really just a waste of time.

Personally, I'd be fine with a bit more grudge from people hitting my oathfriend, and less of a decay, and having that decay start ONLY out of combat. As it stands right now, it starts the moment someone stops feeding me grudge.
Just wanted to comment on a couple of things here. The Chosen ability Ravage is not one of those that's affected by int, it's strength based. I know that the classes are not mirrors, my point is that compared to other tank classes currently in the game, Ironbreakers are overall better in almost every way. And the point I made about the damage types is that physical damage is always better when you have a 75% armor debuff that comes standard with the class. I don't see a 75% spiritual resist debuff on Chosen or any other class for that matter. Only other class that has a 75% armor debuff to my knowledge is a Marauder, and for that they have to spec 9 points deep into their debuff tree (which has crap for DPS) whereas Ironbreakers get it by default and it is effective no matter which spec they go. Sure, the Ironbreaker's debuff isn't 75% until they hit 100 Grudge, but on Live servers right now getting there is ridiculously trivial, and that's the point of this adjustment. It's going to be 10/5/3 which makes it take more effort to get to 100 and still relatively easy to get to the 50 and 75 range; I think it is a fair balance. They do need to reverse the change to how quickly it decays though that is unplayable in my opinion, should stay how it is on Live in that aspect.

[Bakel]

Just real quickly on the armor debuffs..

a lot of classes have em. =P Not just IB and Marauder.

[zilfer]

In summary, quit whining about being subpar or even on even par with other tanks, it is completely unfounded, you are the best tank in the game by a FAR margin and had an adjustment coming to Grudge generation. Granted the current patch to it is a bit harsh but they've stated that they're going to adjust it to 10/5/3 gain instead of 5/3/1. 10 seconds for it to decay is also too harsh, it should be raised to 30 seconds again.

I agree.

(However I do think BOs are up to par).

[WNxFireWraith]

c) For IBs, we are going to make some changes that will allow the IB to get to low grudge more quickly than initially proposed by increasing Oath friend grudge thresholds from 5/3/1 grudge generated to 10/5/3. Also, we are lowering the grudge required (and making a couple other changes) in the following abilities:

Shield Sweep: Cost reduction from 30 Grudge to 25 Grudge.
Oath bound: Cost reduction from 30 Grudge to 15 Grudge.
Avenging The Debt: Increase heal value.
Away With Ye: Reduce cost from 30 Grudge to 25 Grudge. Increase damage. (Also requires cool down from 0s to 10s)
Watch An' Learn: Reduce cost from 30 Grudge to 15 Grudge. (Also requires cool down from 0s to 20s)
Grumble An' Mutter: Increase heal value.

The combination of better contribution from OF and lowering the grudge cost of some abilities should help alleviate some, if not all, of the IB's concern. We will continue, of course, to look at the IB as a whole to determine if additional changes are still necessary.

Found here.

http://vnboards.ign.com/warhammer_online_age_of_reckoning_general_board/b22997/109355195/p1/?565

That fixes grudge pretty much in RvR. Just keep your oathfriend on someone getting hit to avoid decay in scenarios. In open RvR, nothing you can do.

In pve I use the +5 grudge per hit and get up to 100 on each mob. The 10 second decay is annoying but eh.

[Mehter]

I'll be happy if the decay goes from 10 seconds to around 15-20. It's not building the grudge that's hard, but keeping it sure is.

[zilfer]

I'll be happy if the decay goes from 10 seconds to around 15-20. It's not building the grudge that's hard, but keeping it sure is.

Honestly I feel anything less than 20 is harsh.

[Earthsea]

That said with this DPS decrease to IB's I'm hoping it has opened the door to something this game needs very badly: a real offensive tank. Currently in any spec tanks don't have any method at all of seriously threatening a players life. With Ironbreakers as they were it would make it very very difficult to do a big change to tank 2 handers since the high damage output would become far too high with a net change to the mechanic. With tank DPS more normalized, I'm really hoping this will lead to a revamp in 2 handers allowing all tanks access to a higher DPS, lower survivability set up. They'd still be weaker than pure DPSers, but still be more durable than they are. Also, if you look carefully at the trees and abilities of all the tanks (particularly swordmaster) you'd find it would appear this is Mythic's ultimate goal. Though I might be off base and giving them too much credit.



I think an offensive tank is a subtle line to cross. What % of dps should a tank deal out compared to a squishy mdps? An IB with a 2hander still has 3000 (~60% mitigation) armor at level 40 and easily 7.5k hp. Let's take a WH. It will have 1k armor (~20% mitigation) and 6k hp. Supposed a WH has 1k dps and he attacks an IB. Due to high armor he will only do 400dps. It means it takes him 7.5k/400dps ~ 19s to kill an IB.

What is the dps of a Vengeful spec IB? Let's say it's 500dps. If he attacks a WH, due to the low armor of WH, he will still do 400dps. Since a WH only has 6khp, an IB will kill a WH in 6k/400 = 15sec.

From your experience, have it ever taken a vengeful spec IB 15sec to kill a squishy? No right? It's probably more like 5-8sec and a soc/zealot/WE will die to an IB. My IB friend told me his Grudge born fury consistently hits 2k++ on caster.

Can u see how it's broken? It renders other mdps classes useless. Why would I roll a WH/WL when IB can do the same job as I do and yet has 10x my survivabilty, not to mention alot of cc, knockdown etc.

I am all for IB nerf. In fact, dps in this game is getting too high. I feel that 1.05 will break the game with all the big numbers flying around. I feel that rdps should be averaging 150k dps in a well played scenario with exceptional players reach 200k and mdps should be averaging 100k with exceptional players dealing 130k. Healers should be doing around 200k and better ones should top out at 280k. Right now, things seem to be under control because BW is picking the slack for SW and Eng. If every rdps is doing BW like numbers, I think the a well coordinated team will have many rdps because with focus fire, no healers can keep anyone up and anything approaching will just die. I can imagine a team with 2-3 IB and 2-3healers with 5-7 rdps dominating everything. The IBs will just protect the caster and Knock down/stun any WE and do flag carrying duties.

[Xsorus]

Rofl, this is quite a funny thread, its exp amusing that you Ironbreakers want to be like a BO right now.

You compare things like your armor debuff to Wot Armor ignoring the fact that once you achieve your grudge max you can simply walk up to the enemy hit them once and they're at 75% armor reduction, while we have apply 150 AP of ability have countless cools downs to achieve the same thing.

Maybe you want to compare our "Buff" style that improves Weaponskill of the target, while you have one that improves Armor/Toughness/Str/Willpower all to stupid amounts.

Maybe you wanna compare CC? Is your knockdown requiring the target to be snared or it only works 50% of the time? Does it require a Great Weapon and has a 20 second recast?

NO? you get a Knockdown on a 5 second timer if you want.

What about knockbacks? You have 2 different knockbacks compared to us, Though we can waste a tactic slot again if we want a single target ones.

I kinda wish I had a AE Damage Style that can crit for 1200 on people and snare them.

As for the awesome heal you whine about, Gumble an Mutter is the equiv of this ability (and they even increase it in the patch)

[Leman Russ]

I think an offensive tank is a subtle line to cross. What % of dps should a tank deal out compared to a squishy mdps? An IB with a 2hander still has 3000 (~60% mitigation) armor at level 40 and easily 7.5k hp. Let's take a WH. It will have 1k armor (~20% mitigation) and 6k hp. Supposed a WH has 1k dps and he attacks an IB. Due to high armor he will only do 400dps. It means it takes him 7.5k/400dps ~ 19s to kill an IB.

What is the dps of a Vengeful spec IB? Let's say it's 500dps. If he attacks a WH, due to the low armor of WH, he will still do 400dps. Since a WH only has 6khp, an IB will kill a WH in 6k/400 = 15sec.

From your experience, have it ever taken a vengeful spec IB 15sec to kill a squishy? No right? It's probably more like 5-8sec and a soc/zealot/WE will die to an IB. My IB friend told me his Grudge born fury consistently hits 2k++ on caster.

Can u see how it's broken? It renders other mdps classes useless. Why would I roll a WH/WL when IB can do the same job as I do and yet has 10x my survivabilty, not to mention alot of cc, knockdown etc.

I am all for IB nerf. In fact, dps in this game is getting too high. I feel that 1.05 will break the game with all the big numbers flying around. I feel that rdps should be averaging 150k dps in a well played scenario with exceptional players reach 200k and mdps should be averaging 100k with exceptional players dealing 130k. Healers should be doing around 200k and better ones should top out at 280k. Right now, things seem to be under control because BW is picking the slack for SW and Eng. If every rdps is doing BW like numbers, I think the a well coordinated team will have many rdps because with focus fire, no healers can keep anyone up and anything approaching will just die. I can imagine a team with 2-3 IB and 2-3healers with 5-7 rdps dominating everything. The IBs will just protect the caster and Knock down/stun any WE and do flag carrying duties.

Seems like you granted my opinion that the IB DPS did need a reduction, so I'm going to assume the rest of the argument was a general opinion to the rest of the thread.

I don't think its really as slippery a slope as you think it is. You compared for example a WH fighting a tank to a tank fighting a WH. The WH has a myriad of DoTs which ignore armor (the entire inquisition tree for example), and the procs on their blessed bullets are magical damage which also ignores armor (since the WH community is divided on whether execution spam is the best DPS or not, I'll go by what people I personally know do and assume it is). That's also not counting abilities like Torment which sees its way through armor. The same WH has many tools in which he really doesn't give up much DPS (or any if spec'd) and can get around the aforementioned strength of the armor pretty easily. In fact, my friend is so good at taking on tanks with his WH, that he intentionally draws them into 1v1s so he can beat them (admittedly Sanctified Bullets helps him with this).

Also, most classes don't even deal physical damage or are very adept at getting around armor. This advantage as I see it, isn't really an advantage unless you are counting autoattack which all available math shows counts for less and less the larger the STR/BS pool gets. Based on this, what separates the survivability of a tank and that of a MDPS? Wounds and Toughness can be stacked by both. It comes down to the tactics. In the end the MDPS still have the better of the DPS tactics and tank versions are based better around survivability. Shields are another benefit, but my proposed change doesn't affect this set up at all, so its a non-issue. You mentioned CC but the MDPS have that too. WE have abilities like Bow Before Me and movement barbs, ranged snares. Marauders have an AoE knockdown as well as superb pursuit tactics. It really goes both ways. Sure tanks have hold the line, but a net change to 2 handers only wouldn't affect this survival ability at all.

Oh and to a previous poster, just because the buggy and limited WARDB doesn't list my guild or any of the other issues you had with me doesn't make me a "loser" or whatever empty insult you had against me, if you have in issue with one of my opinions let's post it instead of calling names.

-edit- Oh and to people claiming BO's had better survivability thanks to a heal, you're forgetting IB's shield of reprisal ignored all immunities, including boss immunities. Blorc's had nothing like this, nor did that have anything like the Shield Mastery that a Stone IB gets. They get Good Wif' Shield that doesn't include the -5% to -all- damage. Also Blorcs don't have anything comparable to Oathbound. Ya Missed Me is based on a shield block, and its CD is so long under optimal conditions its still only active 50% of the time. Then there's Seasoned Veteran core tactic that IB's get. There's a big difference to more survivable and able to last longer without a healer. If that's your argument, then yes, Blorcs can last longer without a healer, but its completely inaccurate to say Blorcs are more survivable as a tank. If that's the case you're gonna be piiiiiiissed when SMs get out there in the next patch with a whopping 3 low/no CD damage shields.

As an afterword I play both destro and order. I do what's fun. Like this push, I'm pulling out my tier 3 squig herder now that they are tearing it up. If they fix 2 handers, I'll be pulling out my tier 4 swordmaster. If they fix the aura system, I'll get back on my Chosen, or might roll a KotBS since I think they have cooler armor than chosen (mostly since I play Space Wolf SMs in tabletop and Chosen is the standard military unit for every CSM model I fight and have fought for 10 years).

[Earthsea]

I don't think its really as slippery a slope as you think it is. You compared for example a WH fighting a tank to a tank fighting a WH. The WH has a myriad of DoTs which ignore armor (the entire inquisition tree for example), and the procs on their blessed bullets are magical damage which also ignores armor (since the WH community is divided on whether execution spam is the best DPS or not, I'll go by what people I personally know do and assume it is). That's also not counting abilities like Torment which sees its way through armor. The same WH has many tools in which he really doesn't give up much DPS (or any if spec'd) and can get around the aforementioned strength of the armor pretty easily. In fact, my friend is so good at taking on tanks with his WH, that he intentionally draws them into 1v1s so he can beat them (admittedly Sanctified Bullets helps him with this).

Also, most classes don't even deal physical damage or are very adept at getting around armor. This advantage as I see it, isn't really an advantage unless you are counting autoattack which all available math shows counts for less and less the larger the STR/BS pool gets. Based on this, what separates the survivability of a tank and that of a MDPS? Wounds and Toughness can be stacked by both. It comes down to the tactics. In the end the MDPS still have the better of the DPS tactics and tank versions are based better around survivability. Shields are another benefit, but my proposed change doesn't affect this set up at all, so its a non-issue. You mentioned CC but the MDPS have that too. WE have abilities like Bow Before Me and movement barbs, ranged snares. Marauders have an AoE knockdown as well as superb pursuit tactics. It really goes both ways. Sure tanks have hold the line, but a net change to 2 handers only wouldn't affect this survival ability at all.



I m just using the WH/IB example to show why IB should have a way lower dps than other order mdps such as WH/WL. (I wasn't saying who will win in a duel and WH/IB are both order anyways)

My point was if they do similar damage, why pick a WH/WL over a IB? IB got more armor, wounds, toughness and initiative i.e. more survivability and so should do lower dps as a trade off. They shouldn't have the best of both world.

[Leman Russ]

I m just using the WH/IB example to show why IB should have a way lower dps than other order mdps such as WH/WL. (I wasn't saying who will win in a duel and WH/IB are both order anyways)

My point was if they do similar damage, why pick a WH/WL over a IB? IB got more armor, wounds, toughness and initiative i.e. more survivability and so should do lower dps as a trade off. They shouldn't have the best of both world.

Yeah that's what I thought more or less. My point is the damage wouldn't be similar. Because of the nature of the WL/WH/WE/MAR attacks, they will still be better DPSers. The aforementioned have better tactics which ensure they are still better DPSers. Does a tank have anything that can compete with Full Grown, Brute Force, Flanking, and Loner/Pack Hunting? In the same token using the same class as an example, you say the best of both worlds. Flashing Claws and Blindsided! certainly seem like rvr tanking abilities. What about Baited Trap? All the DPSers see parallels similar to these abilities.

If you need to compare it to anything what makes Arms Warriors good in PvP in WoW? They have a healing debuff, no tank does here (-edit- forgot about chosen, then again who can blame me). They have higher armor, armor doesn't mean anything here. That leaves them with health and... health. Damage wise they are bested by any class that wants to. This is similar to the parallel you see with tanks and DPS here, they both have roughly similar levels of CC right now, and its still the same (after the IB DPS reduction of course) in that any MDPS that wants to can run circles around a tank in terms of DPS. There's still plenty of reason to roll one, and you must also consider that a tank with a 2 hander gives up the vast majority of his real survivability.

[ulfir]

Did you leave feedback where they would see it? (not here) these are important issues.

This sounds like it makes IBs untenable in pve and even pvp.

Perhaps 20 seconds would be better. It is kinda ridiculous I run around with 100 grudge throughout an entire scenario. But otoh no way we want to build up from 0 grudge every single mob. BWs and Sorcs don't have to rebuild from 0.

[Tinman_au]

GOOD.

IB's needed a nerf big time - and hopefully this is it.

"Grudge management" as you put it was non-existant before these changes, you just spammed your best abilities without thought. Now hopefully you will be more tactical in your usage of skills.

If you think playing IB on the PTS is frustrating, try playing a BO with our crappy Plan system.

Yes, BO's are so bad there's only 13,180 more of them than IB's across all servers....

There's a 35,077 MORE tanks on Destros side than there is on Orders, this is only going to make that ratio even worse (but I guess you'll think even thats a good thing being Destro, right?).

[tester13]

The 10s decay goes through, most of the existing iron breakers will reroll (or quit the game) I am not sure if a new player/ someone rerolling will pick a nerfed ib and (since they don't know what it used to be like) find it fun to play, but anyone who's played ib in its current form, will not.

Then again, who needs tanks anyway, in scenarios you just need healers and rdps to wipe the other side. So I suppose since mythic's goal is to only have rdps classes in the game (which makes sense, why else would they nerf healing in the same patch that buffs rdps damage) this change is for the better. As soon as everyone plays rdps mythic will either remove the other classes (making the game balanced) or nerf rdps and buff everythign else (maybe making the game balanced as well)

[Zahlem]

IB are just doing a little to much damage, hence the tweak to the grudge system.
If it happens to be too low, Mythic will tweak it the other way around. IB will be fine.

[Zeebie]

IB are just doing a little to much damage, hence the tweak to the grudge system.
If it happens to be too low, Mythic will tweak it the other way around. IB will be fine.

it's not a tweak, it a complete reworking into and un-usable mess, that effect's everything but the problems that people seem to have with it..

serious the fix to this whole mess was WAAAAAAAAAAAY easier then what they have done.

make OF give 5grudge everytime there hit (so 20 hit's to 100), make all tree gain abilities cost between 15-30 grudge, that includes cave-in and earthshatter etc.. give us a reason to spend it

[blehbleh]

Ironbreakers needed a nerf, but I'd have nerfed the knockback and their damage instead of how fast they lose grudge

[tomgore]

Apparantly class mechanics arnt supposed to be an advantage, they are supposed to be horrible burdens that make you work twice as hard to be below average.

Try a Swordmaster, a Chosen or a Black Orc and you'll know that it's absolutely true. For everyone else, the class "mechanic" has always been a burden. Solely for the Ironbreakers it has so far been just a bonus, something you'd gain to full effect almost instantly and kept forever. After this patch, you'll be burdened and hindered by your mechanic just like all the other tanks. Welcome to our world! :)

Sure, I don't know _why_ the mechanics for tanks are so f'd up. Maybe at Mythic they think that playing a tank would otherwise be too boring and that we wouldn't have anything else to do in combat without building up our mechanic? Maybe they thought they'd give us something cool to fiddle with while being pounded to death? We sure as hell cannot do any damage anyway, so at least playing with the mechanic gives us something to do, right?

[Tharrn]

People comparing BOs and IBs might as well complain that the Magus does less damage than the BW.

[Kshahdoo]

Lol, tanks are jokes in this game. No dps builds and they are boring like a teacher's lecture, and Mythic gonna nerf IB (who's just a crap comparing to WoW warrior). And then hope people will play WAR. It won't happen guys...

[freakns]

What's this about needing 50 grudge just to be on par with other tank classes' damage? Hmm let's see...Heavy Blow (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1354) vs. Ravage (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8323)

Last I checked, 150 does not equal 150+147. In fact at ZERO Grudge we can clearly see that IB damage is on par with Chosen damage. The fact that Ravage is spiritual damage is also a downside in comparison when you consider that Ironbreakers get an armor debuff that goes up to 75%. People will no doubt mention the Black Orc as well, so here we go. Clobber (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1664) and Skull Thumper (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1676) are a couple of the more straight up damage abilities. Clobber is the only spammable one, and while Skull Thumper has no AP cost, it is hindered by the awkward Plan system, and to use it you have to miss out on some other attack you might want to use, whereas Ironbreakers can use any of their abilities on demand without having to wait 3 seconds of being in melee range of an opponent to reach that state.

Mind you, Ironbreaker is supposedly the "defensive" tank on the Order side, and in fact they are, yet they still have more damage than any other tank except for a Black Orc who goes down their offensive tree, wields a two hander and uses up 3 tactic slots, whereas the IB gets this damage by default and currently on live, getting to 100 Grudge is ridiculously easy, and when they get there they do very respectable damage with sword and board, something which no other tank can do. So they have tons of defensive power, the best CC of any tank, and the best damage of any tank while wielding sword and board. In summary, quit whining about being subpar or even on even par with other tanks, it is completely unfounded, you are the best tank in the game by a FAR margin and had an adjustment coming to Grudge generation. Granted the current patch to it is a bit harsh but they've stated that they're going to adjust it to 10/5/3 gain instead of 5/3/1. 10 seconds for it to decay is also too harsh, it should be raised to 30 seconds again.
since this is maybe the only reasonable post made by someone who didnt played IB, i think it deserves the answer.
first of all, while you are comparing dmg made by IB and chosen, you might as well compare dmg dealt by IB and marauder. well, they both are melee classes, right, why wouldnt you compare them?!
second, if you think heavy blow will kill you, then think again. spamable abilities are much more for fancy numbers, not for real dmg. at least in IB case. and for me to get to the point im willing to use heavy blow?! it takes some time. a lot of time actually.
third, we cant use any of our abilities anytime we want. not even close to that. runic shield, ancestor fury, stubborn as stone, watch an learn, away with ye, shield sweep, vengeful strike, they all requires some amount of grudge to perform(also, i believe some stone mastery path skills also requires grudge, so the list isnt final). thats a lot of skills if you ask me, so saying we can use anything anytime couldnt be further then the truth. of course, we dont need to use them, we cam spam our dmg dealing abilities like crazy and cry while all the destro players are laughing at us. also, while BO is forced to go through some plays just to be able to decrees your armor he is still able to do it and decrees it to 75%. and lets be honest, he has enough survivability to do so. on other hand, IB while being able to decrees armor for 75% is still dependable on others to do so. so this skill cant be compared at any point because while stone breaker can be as good as anything you can imagine it can also be completely useless and never actually hit his max value. inspiring attack, same thing. i dont see it be so valuable to any healer if you arent at least at 50+ grudge. again, completely dependable to others... and so on, and so on... point of the story, while IB have a potential to be more useful then BO he isnt that by default but rather it all depends on luck as much as on playing skill.
fourth, getting grudge at 100 and maintain it there isnt as half easy as you might think. i tried go there without using oathfriend, and the only time i topped 100 is 1 sec before dieing while being focus fired. or some idiot chosen or BO was actually hitting me thus building my grudge. but thats just rare idiot player, you cant and dont wanna rely on those kind of players...
fifth, and for me, most important thing. how did changes affected lore? lets say you are right and we needed to be nerfed and thus our mechanics needed to be broken, then id say do it differently. instead of going 10/5/3 go 3/5/10. amount of time to get to 100grudge would be more or less same, but the lore would be sustained, youd be angrier while your friend is bitten, instead of being less angry. i mean, could you imagine a dwarf calming down while you oppose him and laughing in his face? i cant... but there is a different side of story. doing this you would need much more time to get to 50 grudge, and that way be at least a little useful, so you would spend much more time to get to the point of half-usefulness but would be much more able to sustain lvl of full usefulness that is given to you at 100 grudge. with 10/5/3 its easy to be over 50 all the time if your OF is hit, but you get just one or two peaks at 100 and this way, damaging the lore, mythic is preserving "fairplay". look at it once more, it tell you that mythic wants IB to be at ~75 grudge all the time, considering this to be IB lvl of equalness with other tanks. not 0 at what lvl you have compare chosen and IB...

[Aedn]

Found here.

http://vnboards.ign.com/warhammer_online_age_of_reckoning_general_board/b22997/109355195/p1/?565

That fixes grudge pretty much in RvR. Just keep your oathfriend on someone getting hit to avoid decay in scenarios. In open RvR, nothing you can do.

In pve I use the +5 grudge per hit and get up to 100 on each mob. The 10 second decay is annoying but eh.

it doesnt fix anything, since the primary complaint that most IB's or at least sane ones have is either our OF or ourselves have to be hit to disable the 10 second decay timer on grudge.Lowering the cost of grudge using abilities is fine as a final balance manuver, but it still does not get to the root of the problem. This decay issue is the root of the problem,and no other class has such a weakness. Quite simply to defeat IB's now, all your opponents need to do is ignore you.

As a previous poster stated, grudge should not start decay until your out of combat for 10 seconds, not be triggered by not being hit for 10 seconds. please note that Rising anger does not counteract the Decay trigger at all according to the dev statements.

previously IB's were able to preform 2 roles and do them well. we could either spec as a Psuedo Mdps class, with lower burst DPS then every MDPS class in game. To do this we sacrificed the majority of our surviveability for the most part. Since you were MDPS you did not use grudge much at all, and only for minor buffs. Fixes here were overall grudge generation & mabye putting in some grudge costs on DPS skills like earthshatter & cave-in.

Or we could be very good tanks, via the OF mechanic for 1 other person at a time. In this case Grudge was an issue because you used it much more often. The only balance here needed was to not allow Buff stacking in some cases, making super tanks via OF mechanic.

[Pera]

Ironbreakers needed a nerf, if not to the grudge system then to all there values at 50 grudge +.

This is absolutely right. BW/Sorc Combustion/DM has 10 seconds CD after combat. WE Frenzies have 10 seconds after combat. Why would IB Grudge lasts 30 seconds after fight?

It is already retarded enough to get knockbacked/rooted/disabled constantly. You guys need to use your grudge wisely like the rest of the classes which has built up mechanics.

[korrowan]

It's different, ironbreaker pretty much do no dmg with 0 grudge. But BW still do decent dmg with 0 combustion.

Also, I use meltdown alot for solo pve with my BW, because I don't even want 100 combustion. But I always want 100 grudge on my ironbreaker.

WE also die in 3 seconds to nearly every class... including tanks.

[Pikk]

A lot of classes who are used to having an edge will always lose it when they take away that edge. IB backed by a ton of healers were the unstoppable force. Big damage Big mitigation and being overhealed made you folks gods of the pvp arena. Being brought back into line will hurt.. but only once.

[Niraco]

Lol, tanks are jokes in this game. No dps builds and they are boring like a teacher's lecture, and Mythic gonna nerf IB (who's just a crap comparing to WoW warrior). And then hope people will play WAR. It won't happen guys...

tanks are not jokes.

i welcome and thank every tank that made his time and enjoyed to be in our warbands that took keeps. yesterday we could not found a tank for 1 hour and 30 min after we dropped both doors in dwarf t3 keep. when we actually got one we had to try to suicide res him to the keep lord, destro showed up and our nu,bers were already thinned by waiting and loggin off.

so again thank you tanks!

(and yeah i got killed by BO as a SW so their dps is enough for me :D)

[Scoop]

This is absolutely right. BW/Sorc Combustion/DM has 10 seconds CD after combat. WE Frenzies have 10 seconds after combat. Why would IB Grudge lasts 30 seconds after fight?

Those classes can build up their class mechanic juice in a matter of seconds, at their own control, and in some cases do not even need to be near combat to do so. If you have no idea how a class works, please refrain from posting your inane comments since it is evident that Mythic listens to such drivel.

[tomgore]

black orcs do great damage and dont need grudge now how is that not oped?

Black Orcs also don't have their KBs/KDs instantly available, like IBs do. Sure, after the nerf you can't use ALL of them whenever you want, just a few.

[Dravyn]

This is absolutely right. BW/Sorc Combustion/DM has 10 seconds CD after combat. WE Frenzies have 10 seconds after combat. Why would IB Grudge lasts 30 seconds after fight?

It is already retarded enough to get knockbacked/rooted/disabled constantly. You guys need to use your grudge wisely like the rest of the classes which has built up mechanics.

Maybe because BW and Sorc have combustion/dhar generating abilities that can fill their combustion/dhar before they even get into the battle? IB don't.
Maybe because WE only need FIVE (5) frenzies? IB need 100? Stop and think.

[tester13]

The funny thing is, as far as kb/kd goes, even if this stupid decay goes live, an iron beaker will still be able use all of their kb's ab kd's juts like they do now! Are people blind or they just can't think?

PS: would people stop comparing grudge to combustion (and now frenzy?) and actually read. Ib's grudge starts to decay 10s not out of combat, but 10s after you or oath friend got hit (even if you have risign anger slotted) this means that in order to prevent grudge decay you must juggle oath friend to someone who gets hit, because if you don't, root = 0 grudge. Juggling oath friend adds a lot of head ache to a class that already has a ton of abilities to choose from. it also makes o rvr or large scale unplayable (not that large scale on a tank was playable to begin with)

witch elfs can get their 5 points in 8-9 seconds if they have ap. Bw can get 100 combustion in 5 spells, and can even do so out of combat, bw's also do it from range. Comparing either one to grudge is pretty stupid, and mythic doing so just shows their lack of understanding/playing their own game.

[Tsarin]

as a RR40 WE i honestly didn't think Iron Breakers needed any nerfing. their punt annoyed the hell out of me, but it was okay. they could dish out some good damage but that made since... 2 handed axes should hurt.

as a deep treachery build, a 2 handed wielding iron breaker isn't instant lose for me. i can usually kill them by using the correct skills and drinking a potion. as a WE, this made me happy, i can actually take out a tank solo if my button pushing skill is better than his.

im a little frustrated at how melee classes seem to be hit or miss in this game. i'm satisfied with my WE but a lot of other melee don't seem to be.

[Abusing]

what can i say... Ironbreaker arn't good scavenger.
This
10chars

[Thundar]

Lets look at the facts, shall we?

For a lot of the moves that have nothing to do with grudge, Black Orcs just do more damage
Grudging Blow (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1355) vs Clobber (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1664)
Vengeful Strike (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1357) vs Savin' Me Hide (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1677)
Guarded Attack (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1356) vs Tuffer 'n Nails (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1669)

The ones that improve with grudge are pretty much just better if the IB has any grudge at all.
Heavy Blow (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1354) vs Skull Thumper (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1676)
Stone Breaker (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1371) vs Wot Armor? (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1666)
Binding Grudge (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1358) vs Trip 'Em Up (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1670)
Rune-Etched Axe (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1366) vs Da Big Un' (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1678)

And IB's of course have greater utility and CC, which admittedly is far less important than Damage in solo PvE. And IB's can use any of their abilities at any time. Their mechanic is a bonus, not a restriction.

So, in terms of damage, it looks like BOs have an advantage until the IB gets Grudge. Is that balanced? If it's as easy for IB's to get grudge as it is now (Live, I mean), no, not really, IB's are just better at everything. If IB's couldn't get grudge easily, then it's arguable. IB's get more utility and are a jillion times better at protecting others, so lower damage could be a reasonable tradeoff, but it's sort of unfair to gimp a class' ability to solo PvE for any reason, in this game at least.

So I guess the question is: Is it really that bad? If it is, it's a little extreme. Grudge shouldn't decay in combat, period. If it's not as bad as the OP says, which I'm slightly more inclined to believe, who knows?

umm when they make the BO the IBs mirror?? your comparing two differnt classes from what i understand the kot = chosen and IB = BG right? might as well compar a bw and a shammie

[Azzudien]

Glad IB got the nerf bat, now they know what the rest of the tanks deal with. I play a 40 SM and if I had unlimited AP it would be a hugely OP class.
Grudge should decay and testing it on mobs you can solo is not the true test. You will not lose grudge when you are in long sustained battles like Keep seiges or boss mobs in PVE dungeons, still the basic of grudge mechanic is far above the sword dance mechanic of SM

[Set]

Glad IB got the nerf bat, now they know what the rest of the tanks deal with. I play a 40 SM and if I had unlimited AP it would be a hugely OP class.
Grudge should decay and testing it on mobs you can solo is not the true test. You will not lose grudge when you are in long sustained battles like Keep seiges or boss mobs in PVE dungeons, still the basic of grudge mechanic is far above the sword dance mechanic of SM

oh, look, another clueless person who doesn't know what he is talking about

[tester13]

How will you not lose grudge in extended battles? unless you or oath friend get hit once every 10 seconds for the entire duration. Also, sm's sucking is in no way a good reason to nerf ib's, nor does nerfing ib's makes sowrd masters suck less.

[nighthawk999]

as a RR40 WE i honestly didn't think Iron Breakers needed any nerfing. their punt annoyed the hell out of me, but it was okay. they could dish out some good damage but that made since... 2 handed axes should hurt.

as a deep treachery build, a 2 handed wielding iron breaker isn't instant lose for me. i can usually kill them by using the correct skills and drinking a potion. as a WE, this made me happy, i can actually take out a tank solo if my button pushing skill is better than his.

im a little frustrated at how melee classes seem to be hit or miss in this game. i'm satisfied with my WE but a lot of other melee don't seem to be.

STOP PRESS: Lightly armoured mDPS class solo kills heavily armoured tank solo...balance claimed as the reason. Order players LOL

[Artermiz]

I think the main problem is, most people just don't want to listen. They see the Vengeful specced level 11 and level 21 IBs running around mutilating everything in sight, and automatically cry foul.

Those guys are going to continue doing what they're doing. The only difference is it'll take them slightly longer to get there. Us defensive IBs will see a healer getting lit up, and all we can do is say "Sorry, I'm not damage spec'd so I don't have enough grudge to help ya out. Try not to die though, you're getting me a decent amount of grudge. Maybe next time I'll be able to punt them."

Umm why not make the healer your oathfriend and get the grudge needed?

[azrael109]

This is starting to be alarming, nerfing IB to be really bad.. when the SM is already really bad will leave order with no tanks untill the knight(who is a mirror of the Chosen who is already really bad). I think this will turn out really really bad, unfortunently when the game is already on the slide this might tip it over totally.

[CorumSM]

If your health doesn't naturally regen because you are in combat why should your grudge decay.
Already lacking tanks on Order, very few SMs, this is just going to kill the IB population in T4 as well.

[Vail]

I think it is funny that I gave up my BW for a bit to play with a Shield IB and "help" my team since Order always seems to lack tanks.
I am shield and one hand spec. I do okay in pve, holding aggro generally and slowly solo if necessary. Transfered him over to the Test server and can safely say I will be shelving him if the keep the new system.

It breaks down like this:

Pve

If I off tank, the only other class that can hang out as a main tank is an....Ironbreaker (or sometimes an elf Swordmaster if you can find them).

So I am getting grudge in pve from another IB who is my oath brother. He is not getting grudge from me. It is slow going. If we pause for ANY reason we pretty much start over.

Since I am not damage 2-hand spec, I am actually a better Main tank.
When I main tank and use rising anger, I linger around 40 grudge if I am lucky through the whole fight. (this includes burning it for skills). I can sorta hold aggro and keep my guard and boosts up on my healer and off tank. But my "job" is much harder then it needs to be.

PvP

Smart people dont attack IBs much in pvp. I pop Hold the Line and try to peel WE and Mard. off my casters. If I have a high priorty target as my Oath friend, I am lucky to get 60 grudge before that target is dead. Then I get to pick a new oath friend. I cannot maintain my oath buffs. It is awsome.

Oh and KB and KD has immunity timer (which is fine) but getting a good toss off is hard in any normal scenario. Throwing ball carriers and healers back to my core ranks is one of the only ways currently to break the much maligned 100 foot zone of death.

--
Here is balance.
Reduce my grudge from live but not by the current beta.
Let me keep it for 30 seconds.
Fix the "broken" skills, don't destroy my mechanic as a class.
(Like the knockback/down, stun, snare fix does not do enough.)


Also I dont know if mythic noticed the total lack of tanks Order already usually has.
Dont try to tell me the "KoBs" will fix that...double so if they are like the chosen who HATE their auras.

IBs were happy. Now we are sad. Welcome to a world with nothing but Off tanks and BW.
(Order does not have many healers either)

[Oink]

I've played all of the tank classes into the Mid 20's or so and I didn't find anything too over the top with any of them other than the obvious buffs to Chosen and Swordmaster. If the changes with ironbreaker go live, the class will probably be the least played because since it's so heavily reliant on Grudge for any kind of effectiveness, being as starved of this resource as it is on PTS will definately kill the class. Order has problems filling out tanks in Scenario pugs as it is and with this nerf, I hope Destruction enjoys being faced with all BW groups :/

[Donton21]

You will not lose grudge when you are in long sustained battles like Keep seiges or boss mobs in PVE dungeons, still the basic of grudge mechanic is far above the sword dance mechanic of SM

You obviously never played an IB, in every keep siege I ever have done I am always full morale but have 0 grudge. Its almost impossible to maintain grudge in huge RVR.

[Dravyn]

Order has problems filling out tanks in Scenario pugs as it is and with this nerf, I hope Destruction enjoys being faced with all BW groups :/

Well they made misinformed rants about IB's and that's what they're going to get: More Bright Wizards. I for one will be shelving my IB and probably roll a BW since obviously rdps is the way to go, BW and Sorc being at the top of the game.

Hope all the destro are happy :) They thought playing against BW was bad before, wait until that's all they're playing against.

[Oink]

Well they made misinformed rants about IB's and that's what they're going to get: More Bright Wizards. I for one will be shelving my IB and probably roll a BW since obviously rdps is the way to go, BW and Sorc being at the top of the game.

Hope all the destro are happy :) They thought playing against BW was bad before, wait until that's all they're playing against.

I think I'll just shelve my account until the Devs get their heads out of their rears and realize that there are other classes in this game than RDPS.

[tomgore]

I'd actually love see an order PuG consisting of nothing but BWs. Pretty much any composition would rip them apart, maybe apart from a PuG of nothing but Sorcs.

[Dravyn]

I'd actually love see an order PuG consisting of nothing but BWs. Pretty much any composition would rip them apart, maybe apart from a PuG of nothing but Sorcs.

lol. not after 1.05 hits.

Cya on the other end of my fireball.

[itnar]

sounds like if they remove the decay most your valid complaints will be gone


The generation needed a nerf though

EDIT:

As a note, as a healer I have noticed a lot more BWs in scenarios in T3, and all I gotta say is it is making my job a lot harder, they are a lot squisher, and the vast majority of them are mediocre at best. Once there are more DR in PvP these horribads will make order suffer because they will make everything immune to CC and the good players won't be able to time it proplery to maximize the use

[Leman Russ]

Everyone is screaming its the end of the world (literally). WAR is doomed and dead for eternity. Its like some people have never been in a game within the first few months of release, how about warlocks in WoW who could chain fear someone for 20 seconds at a time with no diminishing return until 6 months after full release?

I like to try and think like a Dev so I can see the big picture. Did everyone forget that they nerfed HoTs and the crit return on each point of combustion? Oh no we're gonna get more BWs! Get with it, BWs lost their HoTs which allowed them to ignore explosions and now they don't even get the same return for the risk. Talk to a healer sometime, when it comes to your "killzone of death" only a direct heal with suffice (which is now on only a 2.5 cast time with 50% less fragility), the melees aren't hurt by the HoT change, Bright Wizards are. Expect Healers to be screaming at BW/Sorcs in the next patch to dump their CB or not get heals, the class' damage output has been hit harder than anyone cares to grant, so stop claiming everyone will roll one.

RDPS got buffed so much that its harder for you to do your job? I've read the math on SWs. Their sniping scount stance only got about a 5% damage increase. Their skirmisher got a 30% increase which is great considering they have to be in range for marauder's Terrible Embrace to capitalize on this. The RDPS didn't get buffed as much as you think they did, read the math on them before you claim its the end of the universe as we know it. Magus/Engineer? 2 of their abilities got nerfed. The autoattack damage of their pets saw a 5% increase. The only major change is their DoT co-efficients were moved from suck to "hey I'm a DPS class now". The only ones who didn't get sodomized with the nerf bat were the ones who were so bad that their DPS couldn't kill someone if they had 10 minutes to do so.

Oh and btw, just because someone doesn't agree that these changes will effectively ruining tanking everywhere doesn't mean they don't play an Ironbreaker, I played one halfway through tier 3 before I decided I preferred my swordmaster. I'm loving the reply Mark Jacobs had to the incessant whining about how its the end of tanking forever. "Okay, all your abilities cost less grudge now. We're not giving you your damage back. Deal with it."

[Grenk]

I think Black orcs have more damage, but they got way less utility.

Black Orcs needs to have a "gud" plan to be able to snare.. or knock back.
and this takes a first hit with clobber or another no plan skill, and then only can a BO chain a utility move. At that point you are at "best" plan and you will use one of them, which means there will be at least 3 seconds before another utility hit.

I think BO got to work a lot more then IB to be able to use their utility moves currently.

I saw not only knockbacks but also area knockback on order side and when the knocback puts you out of the fight for 30+ seconds... its often a garanteed win for the side with the most knockbacks.

The fact you may have to work harder for your ability dont nerf you into the ground... it just puts you on par with others.

[Galdorf]

If there going to do it this way with grudge then they need to change it when getting hit or hitting a mob each attack adds x amount of grudge.

The way ib's are now they are extremely rare in scenarios out of 100 games i might see 4, i have tried an ib up to 25 it was way too much work compare to my bo at that same level.

The imbalance between bo and ib is so bad on test nobody will play an ib if that what mythic had in mind.

[Leman Russ]

I'm assuming you have numbers to back up the supposed rarity of classes? I do. Here is the 30-40 (http://uploads.screenshot-program.com/my.php?image=upl3160839322.png) bracket across all servers from this thread (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175930). If Ironbreakers are so rare why are they the 4th most played class after Chosen? Its a sample statistic, but a reliable one. It appears in the endgame IB's are 12.4% more prevalent than Blorcs are. The disparity you should be complaining about is Swordmaster to every other tank, the numerical difference is staggering. Funny though that despite everyone's doomsaying (and yeah you guys act like everything is the end of the world) the Chosen, one of the worst designed tanks in the game right now is trumping every other tank in quantity, even in the endgame brackets. Guess players really don't care about their class being broken as much as you'd like to claim they do.

[Arrys]

Really needs to be adjusted.

When CC'd you definitely shouldn't be in the timer for the 10 second if it remains.
PvE it's harsh need at least 20 second IMHO. It would be much harder to code exceptions between PvE and PvP CC vs Un CC'd etc...

RvR it can be bloody hard to get hit the ability to bounce oathfriend along with the mod'd oathfriend gains and ability costs seems doable as grudge generator.

My concern is really with the ten second cooldown, it's tough.

If you want to make it something we ahve to work on retaining perhaps consider tying it to both getting hit and having a self implemented buff active. At least that way I could apply a 20 second buff near mob death and in RvR would have to fill a frontline roll to keep such buffs active predictably. AKA a double test 10 seconds not being hit AND no self buff active then degen occurs. I'ld rather a flat at least 20 seconds but suspect part of the change is to get us fronting up rather than hanging back.

[Maudlin]

What happened to giving all the classes some "love?" I didn't see anything that actually improved the IB.

[sleepycorpse]

What happened to giving all the classes some "love?" I didn't see anything that actually improved the IB.

there is only love or tough love, please use these terms and refrain from words such as nerf,nerf and nerf.

[Trobbles]

1. They nerfed the rate you gain grudge.
2. They nerfed the timer from 30 to an astounding 10.
3. They nerfed when the timer initiates, instead of starting when you leave combat it ends from when you last gained grudge.
4. They nerfed the decay rate, instead of losing 5 grudge at a time, you now lose 10.

This isn't a nerf, it's a class breaker. Good job Mythic. People will stop playing these tanks, which were already low to begin with. Good times...

[Zereonis]

So you are going to stop playing your IB to play a healing class... LOL.

Have fun.

He will.

As a tank you depend heavily on your team mates, because in order to accomplish anything you need healing. Otherwise you will be dead before you are effective.

Those changes just made it worse to the point where it is just ridiculous.

There is no point in playing a tank unless you have a dedicated group - and if you have such a group, every class will rock, so there's still no reason to play a tank.

My ironbreaker is at rank 35, my bw is 26 and rising - go figure.

[Vail]

After more play testing, it is the Tactic Rising anger that Currently breaks the grudge mechanic AND almost fully counter balances the nerf.

Without Rising Anger in pve
45 to 55 grudge max achived. 35 to 40 maintained

With Rising Anger in Pve
75 to 80 achieved. 55 to 60 maintained

Without Rising Anger in PvP
40 to 50 achieved with spikes if I was main target only to shortly die.
25 to 30 maintained due to skill use

With Rising Anger in PvP
60 - 70
50 maintain fairly easily.

Grudge Unleashed is almost totally nerfed however. You will rarely have/want to spend the grudge to get your AP back.


These numbers could fluctuate wildly, far more then prior, just depending on the mob / players I was facing.

Also the decay rate is simply not acceptable.
Bright wizards can have a 10 second decay because they have Range!


Fix the tactic and leave the rest as it is in live atm.

Also, why is this not in the TEST server thread section?

[Chuck Bronsun]

All I'll say is that I'm extremely disappointed in the 1.05 patch as it pertains to the Ironbreaker. They got nerfed and are now even less effective on the battlefield than before.

[Dravyn]

All I'll say is that I'm extremely disappointed in the 1.05 patch as it pertains to the Ironbreaker. They got nerfed and are now even less effective on the battlefield than before.

Apparently the few tanks that Order had..the handful of IB and even less SM, were getting in the way of all the BO and Chosen. Won't have to worry much about that anymore.

[Chuck Bronsun]

Apparently the few tanks that Order had..the handful of IB and even less SM, were getting in the way of all the BO and Chosen. Won't have to worry much about that anymore.


Nope. I haven't logged in since I played the PTS I was so bummed :(. Still, nothing is set in stone until the patch goes live. ;)

[Fruitpunch]

Would Ironbreakers be playable again if the grudge decay rate was say 20 seconds? Thoughts?

[Sarmaul]

The reason IBs except their grudge to get to 100 is because our abilities have hard-coded damage values depending on grudge, and surprise surprise 100 grudge is one of them. I would be far happier with a 20s decay if the damage scaled up and down linearly with grudge. At the moment there is no difference to having 75 grudge or 95 - you have exactly the same damage output.

And the 10s cooldown is brutal when you a) have to traverse into melee range to get to your target and b) have no way of generating grudge on the fly, unlike BW who I believe can use one of their AoEs to build up combustion before going into a fight (unless that is getting changed in the patch).

[Ralloszek]

oh noes! IBs get damaged now and wont be indestructable what are we gona do?? :rolleyes: better quit playing, better cancel now. :rolleyes:

[Chuck Bronsun]

oh noes! IBs get damaged now and wont be indestructable what are we gona do?? :rolleyes: better quit playing, better cancel now. :rolleyes:

You are obviously one of the people belly aching about IB's to begin with. Nerfing a class doesn't help a game, so roll you eye all you like. Nothing was wrong with the Ironbreaker to begin with and a poor sport players like yourself demanding that classes be dimenished so that you can feel like a better player, still doesn't make you a better player, it only ruins the game. The biggest gripe that made any sense was the knockback argument, but to call IB's indestructable, you have got to be joking. Ironbreakers are nothing without a good healer. So if you want to whine or complain, complain about healers, but be careful what you wish for, because if they nerf enough classes, eventually yours will be next.

[Mac Sidewinder]

You are obviously one of the people belly aching about IB's to begin with. Nerfing a class doesn't help a game, so roll you eye all you like. Nothing was wrong with the Ironbreaker to begin with and a poor sport players like yourself demanding that classes be dimenished so that you can feel like a better player, still doesn't make you a better player, it only ruins the game. The biggest gripe that made any sense was the knockback argument, but to call IB's indestructable, you have got to be joking. Ironbreakers are nothing without a good healer. So if you want to whine or complain, complain about healers, but be careful what you wish for, because if they nerf enough classes, eventually yours will be next.

Exactly, I think the only thing that needed to go was the knockback. But not just IBs knockback but everybodys. No reason to be able to punt a person for a 100ft fieldgoal. If too much grudge was the problem then simply lower the attainment of grudge slightly instead of nerfing the whole mechanic and reducing the amount you get.

Whatever happened to slight changes instead of knee jerking ones?

Mac

[Zeebie]

Exactly, I think the only thing that needed to go was the knockback. But not just IBs knockback but everybodys. No reason to be able to punt a person for a 100ft fieldgoal. If too much grudge was the problem then simply lower the attainment of grudge slightly instead of nerfing the whole mechanic and reducing the amount you get.

Whatever happened to slight changes instead of knee jerking ones?

Mac

they only made a slight change
slight change to how it's generated
slight change to wording from "out of combat" to "stop generating"
slight change from 30 seconds, to 10 seconds
slight change to the rate it decays from 5/s to 10/s


seriously didn't these guy's ever do science at school. change 1 variable at time, and then test the results.. not 4 at once

[Torantio]

they only made a slight change
slight change to how it's generated
slight change to wording from "out of combat" to "stop generating"
slight change from 30 seconds, to 10 seconds
slight change to the rate it decays from 5/s to 10/s


seriously didn't these guy's ever do science at school. change 1 variable at time, and then test the results.. not 4 at once


Have you never played an MMORPG before? I can't recall ever playing an MMO where nerfs were done slowly over time. Every MMO developer knows when you go for a nerf you pound that sh*t from every angle and deal with the consequences 3 months down the road =)


Sure it seems to us normal folk like it would make sense to drop the decay timer from 30 seconds to 25 and/or the OF grudge rate from 10 to 8 and see if it needs more work a week or 2 down the road, but fu** that noise we(devs) do what we want!

[tomgore]

Nothing was wrong with the Ironbreaker to begin with...

If that would be true, then all the other tank classes would have to had their class "mechanic" either completely removed or significantly buffed. Sure, the IB might not have been OP when compared to other non-tank classes, but it sure was when compared to other tanks. If you don't agree then you probably haven't played with the other tanks much...

[Torantio]

If that would be true, then all the other tank classes would have to had their class "mechanic" either completely removed or significantly buffed. Sure, the IB might not have been OP when compared to other non-tank classes, but it sure was when compared to other tanks. If you don't agree then you probably haven't played with the other tanks much...

I agree that the IB was the best of the tank classes for dealing damage and possibly CC, though not by a rediculous margin and not for pure survivability/tanking

I find it odd that to fix the RDPS classes they buffed the weak ones UP to the stronger ones level, but to fix the TANK classes they nerfed the strong one down to/below the weaker ones level.

[Chuck Bronsun]

The trouble with nerfing a pure defense class is that you begin to lessen the entire game. Tanks are the FRONT line of defense, if you can't defend, then what good is the class? Are Ironbreakers to be reduced to snare turtles, hoping someone gets close enough to them to do the lowest possible damage they can, because they don't have enough grudge to do any more? Or they just there to punt people away? Tanks, ALL tanks, need to beable to do whatever it takes to defend, that includes dishing out and resisting damage, high amounts of damage. If they do enough and resist enough damage, the person playing the dps will get the point and run away.

Currently the Ironbreaker is the standard all other tanks in the game should live up too. By nerfing them Mythic is messing with a very important mechanic that could screw the balance of things.:(

[Weizen]

You are obviously one of the people belly aching about IB's to begin with. Nerfing a class doesn't help a game, so roll you eye all you like. Nothing was wrong with the Ironbreaker to begin with and a poor sport players like yourself demanding that classes be dimenished so that you can feel like a better player, still doesn't make you a better player, it only ruins the game. The biggest gripe that made any sense was the knockback argument, but to call IB's indestructable, you have got to be joking. Ironbreakers are nothing without a good healer. So if you want to whine or complain, complain about healers, but be careful what you wish for, because if they nerf enough classes, eventually yours will be next.


You are obviously one of the people belly aching about IB's nerfs to begin with. Nerfing a class does help a game, so roll you eye all you like. always having 100 grudge was wrong with the Ironbreaker to begin with and a poor sport players like yourself demanding that classes not be dimenished so that you can feel like a better player, still doesn't make you a better player, it only ruins the game. The biggest gripe that made any sense was the insane damage/good survivabilty argument, but to call IB's indestructable, you have got to be a little tiny bit overboard. Ironbreakers are nothing without a healer who can throw a hot every now and then with 480 willpower buff. So if you want to whine or complain, complain about ironbreakers always having 100 grudge despite clearly not designed for that buff/damagewise, but be careful what you wish for, because if they nerf enough classes, eventually yours will be next again.

see what i did there?

[Setanta]

Reality check: Despite the stats and figures, order tanks are now almost non-existent. SM is laughable in T4, it needs a major revamp. I see maybe 1 IB in T1/T2 every few scenarios, some holding onto T3 because TA is the one place IBs excel and a few in T4 until the realise it's a joke for melee.

Maybe the new tanking class will make up the numbers for a few weeks, but then it will die off.

To all the destruction out there: I agree BW needed to be toned down - or at least have had all it's CC removed before release. Glass cannons should never have CC - WH is a glass cannon - it can snare but nothing else.

IB needed to have 2H mechanics - aka the DPS abilities require grudge to keep it in a state of fluctuation, not at a constant 100. Want to do damage? Spend grudge. Want to horde grudge? You aren't going to do much damage. Why the hell Mythic are to dumb to comprehend this I don't know. It's not the mechanic, it's the lack of grudge expenditure that made 2H IBs powerful. Benefits to holding grudge shoul be you get one hit - it might be a good one, but that's all you get.

S&B IBs copped the nerf instead for doing their job as it's harder for them to generate grudge and slowed advances (due to HTL/snares/CC) = grudge decay if you are keeping hold the line up. On the test, I kept HTL up to the enemy with melee behind me until we got to them - I then fell over because I had no AP and no grudge as they were FFing the melee, not me. So what does the patch decay do? It benefits IBs to play 2H style as this nerf doesn't hurt them, it does however hurt the tanker S&B style badly.

Long term: SM is a joke and not addressed in this patch. T4 SMs are not tanks. TANKING IBs are being shelved or will move to 2H spec. We have a new untested tank coming up - how many will really take them to T4 given a dimishing player base?

Order will end up with few tanks, Dest will steamroller them with their tanks/ranged/WEs, order will eventually get sick of the smashing and re-roll Dest or quit. No oponents for dest = WAR becoming a sub-par WoW PVE clone.

Or everyone will roll BWs :grin:

I just hope Mythic doesn't shoot themselves in the foot


**edit - my test was the first nerf - OF was a joke, even switching it. Decay was the worst thing in combination with OF. I'd rather jam rusty nails through my sack than go back to the PTS again - rusty nails are less painful:roll:

[Kshahdoo]

tanks are not jokes.

i welcome and thank every tank that made his time and enjoyed to be in our warbands that took keeps. yesterday we could not found a tank for 1 hour and 30 min after we dropped both doors in dwarf t3 keep. when we actually got one we had to try to suicide res him to the keep lord, destro showed up and our nu,bers were already thinned by waiting and loggin off.

so again thank you tanks!

(and yeah i got killed by BO as a SW so their dps is enough for me :D)


Tanks are essentials in any given game. But always in shortage. Because they are boring. And nerfing them is always a good idea if you wanna make the game less played. They should give tanks dps builds. But nerfing the IB core mechanics won't help in any case. It's obvious. And even more obvious considering the lack of order tanks...

[azrael109]

Its intresting to see the BO, considered by far the best real TANK here crying about the IB. IB do abit more damage but their survivability as a 2h is nothing compared to the BO and face it, whats needed is tanks.. Now order will have none who is up too it but 2 subpar, and if we get a chosenclone.. is that really gonna fix anything? The chosens on these forums at least seem to think they are the worst class in the game.(havent even tried one myself)

[Weizen]

put the grudge decay on a higher cooldown, maybe 20 secs, or even 30 secs as it should be now (atm as far as i no it is bugged, and your grudge never decays, that at least was said by mark jacobs)

the grudge gain nerf was deserved, the decay is a little hard. as it is now, ib can use 2hand max grudge for damage, and spend grudge for grudge abilitys, and almost instantly get back to full grudge, if they know what they do. and that can't be intended.

play any other tank, if all tanks where at ib lvl, everything would get steamrolled by them

and whoever now comes with "but bo get 1240 healing/10s" that is only true if you spec full thoughness, and then your as viable in pvp as my used toothbrush. if you spec brawler, you get 750 heal or so. thats quite a big difference, also if you really want to be an asset to your melee train spec the tactic that makes da strongesta group buff. the heal shout is only really good in 1on1, and this game isn't about 1on1. you also have to hit something to proc this. you say you can hit nothing because of snares, roots whatever to generate grudge, the how can a black ork hit anything to proc the heal? that's double standart.

chosen is a joke right now, don't know how the damage compares after the patch, but before they had to use int for damage and hit chance. there was no equip with int on it for tanks, how is that fair?

and to al who say SM is crap, yeah he is not on par with ironbreaker, no other tank is btw, but at least 2h spec he has higher survivabilty then both chosen and black ork, because of his two hand parrying style. he also does magic damage, which bypasses my armor on black ork, who is purely physical damage (except waaagh, but i know noone who specs that anyway). i already got steamrolled from a good sm on either my WE and my BO and i'm a decent player myself. and he is a anti caster tank, he can be really painful on destro healers (which there aren't many of) because he just rupts about everything they can do.

order may have a very low tank population, but at least on my server there are at least 2 ib and 1 sm in every t4 scenario, the occasional witchhunter, and 4-5 healers rest filled up with bright wizards and shadowhunters. wl got a surprisingly big increase as well, all they do all day long is fetch someone. the lions don't take long to kill. but when you fetch melees, they can't do anything against it. i need 2-3 gcd to kill this thing on my witchelf, it needs 1 gcd to throw me into hell. the problem with most players is, they are horrendously stupid. i rolled a lot of classes in beta and now in release, so had plenty of time to test them in low and high tiers, i could own almost anyone with every class 1on1. some where easier to master (bw/sorc) some harder (shaman/bo/am/swordmaster) but when you do, you can do really bad stuff to the other side.

i'm drifting of into a rant, so i'm stopping here.

[Weizen]

Its intresting to see the BO, considered by far the best real TANK here crying about the IB. IB do abit more damage but their survivability as a 2h is nothing compared to the BO and face it, whats needed is tanks.. Now order will have none who is up too it but 2 subpar, and if we get a chosenclone.. is that really gonna fix anything? The chosens on these forums at least seem to think they are the worst class in the game.(havent even tried one myself)

ib have enough survivabilty as is. yes you can outtank everything with a green hitting bag specced da toughest, but it is almost the most boring thing ever to do in an mmo. just hit 3 buttons, then hit can't hit me, wait 20 seconds, rinse and repeat.

in pvp they are not viable, and two hand black orks fall like flies (most of them have not stacked wound/toughness into their tactic slots, because there are way better dps/pvp tactics). the only thing really viable in pvp is brawler specced with shield, you loose your knockdown, but gain some decent surviabilty and group utility (hold the line).

the devs say ib was never intended to always has 100 grudge up. that was a big concern in beta, and it is now, had they fixed in in beta as they should have, there wouldn't be such a big whine fest now. now all ib think they should be at 100 grudge everytime, than i want to use all my abilitys anytime anywhere. i can't evene reliably snare a target on my black ork because i get rooted/knockbacked before i can get to my good plan abilitys. i think every sm can relate to that. the mechanic hinders more then it really helps conserving ap with free best plan abilitys. our only knockdown is 2 hand, and requires the target to be snared, and is a best plan ability, which costs ap...

so yeah i can be the best pve tank in a pvp game, congrats to me...

[Storman]

Wow people really hate IB’s. Even all the posters that that first claim to be upset about the changes offer further suggestion to make the class weaker. Any developer reading threads like this must be thrilled and thinking they did a great job and I’m sure more nerfs are to follow in later patches after this.

Now let’s just wait for another nerf to our threat in pve tanking so we lose any utility there as well. I thought this game would make an effort to make tanks useful in pvp but it obviously doesn’t. I suppose the purpose of them was for people to have an alt tank to bring out for the endgame city encounters and then go back to using their main rdps character.

[Tsarin]

STOP PRESS: Lightly armoured mDPS class solo kills heavily armoured tank solo...balance claimed as the reason. Order players LOL


l2read. and research never hurts. i said i don't think they needed any nerfing. and 2 "heavily armoured" isn't the case with the treachery build. a tank may as well be naked when fighting me because the only things that are going to help him are his 2 handed weapon, which i can out DPS or a shield which would make me find easier prey.

[Dravyn]

in pvp they are not viable, and two hand black orks fall like flies

2h IB drop even faster. What's your point?

[Chuck Bronsun]

see what i did there?


Yes, you proved my point. Thank you. Witch Elfs and Black Orc players are the ones that gripe the most and you play both, go figure. Black Orc players have no room to complain except about the punt, I love the Black Orc and played one all through closed beta, so learn to play your class, The end.

[Adraedan Yfelsung]

So your grudge mechanic is now in line with everyone else? You have a build-able ability that resets when you're out of combat... sounds like most classes. Hell, my Black Orc's plan mechanic resets in combat sometimes.

Grudge was never meant to just sit at high levels from fight to fight to fight, THIS was EXCACTLY the aspect of IB's that needed a nerf, they were able to maintain grudge for far too long which made them far stronger than they should have been.

Now they'll be far more on par with the rest of the tanks in the game.

[Chuck Bronsun]

Agreed, grudge shouldn't sit at 100 from fight to fight. If the next fight is a minute later. Grudge is the prime mover of a IB, without it they are pointless and weak. Its like adrenaline, its up when you are in the heat of battle, it doesn't just go away.

[Dravyn]

Regardless..if IB are so "superior" to other tanks, then BO needs to be nerfed as well, since they're hands down vastly superior to SM And Chosen.

[Chuck Bronsun]

Regardless..if IB are so "superior" to other tanks, then BO needs to be nerfed as well, since they're hands down vastly superior to SM And Chosen.

Exactly, and in nerfing the IB they will eventually have to nerf these other classes as well. Problem as I see it is that when or if they implement these changes to the IB I'll simply not play my Ironbreaker and switch to my Bright Wizard since they are getting a nice fat boost in damage, not like they needed it. Fewer tanks equals less defense, cause and effect of listening to players who don't know how to player their class, and think their class should be able to take on all other classes.

..cough! Black Orcs and Witch Elfs cough!:p

[ProjectMercy]

Lets look at the facts, shall we?

For a lot of the moves that have nothing to do with grudge, Black Orcs just do more damage
Grudging Blow (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1355) vs Clobber (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1664)
Vengeful Strike (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1357) vs Savin' Me Hide (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1677)
Guarded Attack (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1356) vs Tuffer 'n Nails (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1669)

The ones that improve with grudge are pretty much just better if the IB has any grudge at all.
Heavy Blow (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1354) vs Skull Thumper (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1676)
Stone Breaker (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1371) vs Wot Armor? (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1666)
Binding Grudge (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1358) vs Trip 'Em Up (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1670)
Rune-Etched Axe (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1366) vs Da Big Un' (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1678)


This has to be about the worst comparison I've ever seen in my life. When I first started WAR I planned on playing a BO, but after 20 levels I realized how inferior it was to the IB, so I switched. I find it ironic that a lot of the posts here are complaining that grudge is now a limiting factor.. what do you think the plan system is?

Grudging Blow vs Clobber? You don't even use grudging blow unless you're tanking NPCs. You use heavy blow. Heavy blow is exactly clobber, except it also does more damage if you have grudge. Stonebreaker is Wot Armor that only uses one cooldown, does more damage, and destroys more armor. Trip 'em up was like binding grudge with NO grudge before, but since it was the only decent middle-plan item, they had to change it to the one you see, which is still crappy.

I could pretty well go the list, and you'd see how bad it is. BO has one thing over IBs, "Da Toughest" (which is very strong, I won't argue).

I'm not going to argue about the changes one way or the other, but this post, and a lot of the replies, show how out-of-touch a lot of the Ironbreakers are with the rest of the game. IBs are head-and-shoulders above all the other tanks in just about every aspect. I won't argue whether that position is where they all should be or not? but right now they're not balanced. I can't say I'm happy with getting nerfed, but I expected it, so it's not a huge deal-breaker for me.

[Vota]

" IBs are head-and-shoulders above all the other tanks in just about every aspect."

Damage maybe, everything else your having a joke right.

[Timmeh]

Tanks are already stupid for keeps and anything oRVR fun. Oh boy I can cast hold the line and .. uhm.... hey what else can I do in keeps? Oh yeah, die from oil. And build rams over and over again.

I won't argue IBs are currently the strongest tanks. But Mythic apparently forgot Order has 1/3 the count of melee of Destruction in almost every encounter. Additionally, Order is almost always fighting at a disadvantage in numbers.

And now Destruction gets the black guard and we get the crappy tank added. You think that's going to get better, Mythic? Should you really be chopping a leg off the top melee, especially order melee, in the current broken state of RDPS?

[Asha'man-WHA]

I've moved this post into the Public Test Server Discussion forum. However, now that it is in this forum, keep in mind that all posts in it are now subject to the heavier levels of moderation as outlined in this READ FIRST (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184901) post. Keep it within the rules and everyone can benefit from the discussion value of this thread.

[AJ2ME]

Note:

Destro will complain about ANY class that gives them even the slightest bit of a contest. Therefore the whinning about IB and BWs till they got them nerfed.

P.S. -- if you check most SC's damage charts you will see that Sorcs outdamage BWs most of them time and that is on LIVE. After the changes go in I doubt that Order will stand a chance against Destro any more. :(

[Baldor]

Lets look at the facts, shall we?

Grudge shouldn't decay in combat, period.

QFT


I tested my IB on the PTS today for the first time and I have to say, I thought it was pretty bad. From what I could tell the OF change might be fine (I didn't get to test it much, but it didn't make me outright cringe). I found the 10 sec cool down very disappointing. It feels like someone was giving the task to balance the IB, goofed off for a month, and threw an idea out at the last minute. It completely chops the game play up, and doesn't make sense. Healers, here is a hint. Just don't hit me :) To me, it makes me feel like they are forcing me to spend a tactic point to not be broken.

I can't say if IBs are over-powered. I think we leave a bad taste in people's mouth early with our knockbacks, and they decide from that point on we are OP. I can tell you I don't feel Op in T4. I dont' feel gimped either, but I can get my butt handed to me real quick if I mess up (or run into a trio of Sorcs). I really don't care if I get nerfed. I will play well and be fine. I just hope this isn't the answer.

[andante]

Currently in 1.05 the oathfriend cooldown is 1.5 seconds from 15 seconds (live) and grudge decay went to 10 seconds from 30 seconds (live).

This change going to make playing the ironbreaker very unenjoyable and frustrating due to always having to swap oathfriends. The change also goes against the class description and class philosophy.

My proposal

Change #1
The decrease on the cooldown on oathfriend makes the IB's oathfriends even less significant than facebook "friends". I propose that oathfriend should have it's cooldown increased to 1 min or even 2 mins.

Reason:
On live, the 15 second cooldown allows ironbreakers to swap oathfriends to whoever is getting hit without a second thought thus allowing them to run on 100 grudge no matter the situation. With the dramatic increase on cooldown, it forces the IB to seriously consider who to make oathfriends with. Also this change allows the enemy team work around the fact that the IB can't switch oathfriends on the fly and gives them the option to avoid the oathfriend entirely to limit the IB grudges. This also implies that oathfriend can be an indirect way to tank/protect a valued team member. This change thus can award both sides on smart play. Also due to the high cooldown, it can be a good motivation for the IB to go out of his way to protect his oathfriend thus forcing him to expend grudge abilities such as his knockback or defensive buffs.

However if they decide to attack the IB's precious oathfriend, they deserve to feel the wrath of a 100 grudge IB... just like what it says in the class description.

Change #2
With the increase on oathfriend cooldown thus limiting the IB's grudge. Grudge decay should be increased to 1 minute, another possibility is 10-20 seconds after being out of combat.

Reason:
The ironbreaker is a hardened veteran soldier not a college kid with ADD (which is what the PTS 10 second grudge decay implies). On a more serious note, this change also prevents the all too frequent awkward situation that happens alot on PTS where there is a huge battle going around the IB with the IB fully engaged in it yet he is losing grudges due to being not hit by the opposing team. Mainly however this change is to offset the cooldown on oathfriend.



With these changes the ironbreaker would work like a class that values his oathfriends and will not forgive any wrongs commited against him and his oathfriends. Coincidentally this change also would make the Ironbreaker more Akin to it's philosophy and class description. These changes award both the Ironbreaker's and the opposing team on smart play by giving the IB's enemies more control on controlling the IB's grudge while at the same time gives the IB more control on protecting his allies.


So what do you guys think?

[SandersJudgment]

Honestly, I could live with IB's grudge being as it was if they didn't hit so hard at 100 Grudge. I understand it's a difficult thing to maintain and keep up proper momentum, but the bad things IBs can do is.. ugh.

[Chaot]

oh no IB's are fine...i cant win against 3 sorcs...!!!!

lol

try getting curb stomped by 1 BW as a black orc

But honestly..I have played an IB..and I agree with the people who are talking about how grudge affects tank spec IB's

With vengence spec all IB's abilities are damage boosted and they dont have to spend grudge to do damage ..the grudge just keeps the DPS high

its the tank spec IBs that get screwd as all the good moves require the expenditure of grudge

the mechanic need to be swaped or evened out....leave grudge building and decay as it is
and force vengence spec IB's to spend grudge to do damage..and let tanks spec IB's conserve Grudge and passivly boost their defenses

[Ashler]

* Edited *

[Ashler]

I did have something postivie to add. The new 1.05 grudge is what it should of been the whole time. I am sure (and the 1.05 on PTR seems to agree) that grudge was not ment to be easily kept at 100% nor was it ment to be gained as quickly as it was.

Now, many IB's will be able to rock just fine with them, some will not.

But either way IB's were and still are the best tanks in the game bar none. So no room to complain.

[Trobbles]

SnB tanks DO NOT maintain 100 grudge at all times, or even most of the time. We cycle through grudge, build up, use it, build up.

No, we cannot effectively tank if we are sitting at 0 grudge more often than not.

Shall I break it down for you?



Grudge is built either by being hit, or via another Oath Friended player being hit
If you are the primary tank (which is what we SnBers tend to be), you are getting little, if anything out of oath friend (aside from buffing your OF)
Per patch 1.05, grudge begins to decay 10 seconds after the last grudge was built
Grudge decays at a rate of 10g/second
Grudge can and will decay in combat if you go 10 seconds without being hit - using crowd control abilities or ANYTHING that prevents you from taking damage (i.e. BEING A GOOD TANK) counts against your decay time
SnB IB's use more abilities that dump grudge than 2h vengeance IBs. If we are trying to tank effectively, we forego damage in order to use the grudge we've built
If we use any of our cc/defensive abilities that prevents us from taking damage, we're hit with a double whammy - no grudge accumulated + grudge dumped from using an ability
Now we sit at 0 grudge with useless buffs and virtually nil damage.
What other class's mechanic is dependent upon actions OTHER people take against them, and not the actions they take against others? Yes, this is the KEY issue here - rising anger aside (which no longer prevents grudge decay if in a state of decay anyways), in the best situations, we have little control over the accumulation of a necessary class resource. We cannot spam a key to prevent grudge decay from happening like the class this nerf was modeled after.

That is all.

[RedDevilCG]

Are you serious that in combat you can go 10 seconds without being hit once?

P.S. Can two IBs Oath Friend each other? That would be an awesome way to generate a lot of grudge for you and your partner!

[Zeebie]

Are you serious that in combat you can go 10 seconds without being hit once?

P.S. Can two IBs Oath Friend each other? That would be an awesome way to generate a lot of grudge for you and your partner!

It's easy to go 10 seconds and not get hit, and if your OF has died, and your at the front lines.. then yep goodnight grudge.

I play as veng spec IB who tries to go around the back and attack the healers. if the healer roots me, or is running away, 10 seconds without being hit happens a bit. I can start at about 60 grudge on the test center and by the time I've put 2-3 hits on healer, I'm down to 0.

if I am hitting something I SHOULD NOT LOSE GRUDGE it's that simple

[Kermit1979]

It's easy to go 10 seconds and not get hit, and if your OF has died, and your at the front lines.. then yep goodnight grudge.

I play as veng spec IB who tries to go around the back and attack the healers. if the healer roots me, or is running away, 10 seconds without being hit happens a bit. I can start at about 60 grudge on the test center and by the time I've put 2-3 hits on healer, I'm down to 0.

if I am hitting something I SHOULD NOT LOSE GRUDGE it's that simple


Yes it is indeed. One of our rank2 moral ability gives us 100% block rate for 10 seconds. If an IB blocks or parries he does not generate grudge (unless he uses a tactic for the parry).

The current system is borked, it's designed similar to combustion/backlash but the IB has no control over their grudge generation like a BW/Sorc does. Mythic's logic is incredibly flawed.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Mythic IB's will quit in droves if this patch goes live as is. You're completely destroying the IB with this change. The current Magus will be more effective ffs. Why break something that isn't broken?

Don't like us building grudge up so fast? Fine, make the OF change to 10/5/3, but don't touch the decay rate. Even the current decay rate is broken, try sieging a keep, if there's no opposition you sit at 0 grudge the entire time. Slotting Rising Anger isn't an option either as the tactic is incredibly broke. It doesn't reliably give grudge, nor does it reliably reset the "last grudge gained" mechanic for purposes of calculating decay times.

Just one of my keep raids today (on live) I watched as my grudge dropped while I was swinging at a keep gate. Every second it dropped 5, then would go up 5 every time ~1/5seconds. I was steadily losing grudge after the guards were dead. Once I hit zero grudge, Rising Anger then allowed me to correctly build Grudge back up.

Just 1 of many examples of how this ability is fubar. Yet we'll be having to rely on it to make up the handicap Mythic will be giving IB's...

Thanks but no thanks, it's much easier to quit then put up with crap like this.

[NicWester]

I'm sure it's been asked, but there are a lot of pages:
How does scavenging hurt in PvE?

Let's say the last time you're hit in PvE is two seconds before the mob dies (unlikely, but possible). That's 8 seconds before the Grudge starts to decay.

Now let's say you loot the corpse, that takes 1 second. 7 seconds before the decay starts.

Now let's say you scavenge, that takes 2 seconds. 5 seconds before the decay starts.

Unless you're pulling multiple mobs, you should have plenty of time before the decay even starts, let alone before you reach 0.

[Kharhadast]

SnB tanks DO NOT maintain 100 grudge at all times, or even most of the time. We cycle through grudge, build up, use it, build up.

No, we cannot effectively tank if we are sitting at 0 grudge more often than not.

Shall I break it down for you?



Grudge is built either by being hit, or via another Oath Friended player being hit
If you are the primary tank (which is what we SnBers tend to be), you are getting little, if anything out of oath friend (aside from buffing your OF)
Per patch 1.05, grudge begins to decay 10 seconds after the last grudge was built
Grudge decays at a rate of 10g/second
Grudge can and will decay in combat if you go 10 seconds without being hit - using crowd control abilities or ANYTHING that prevents you from taking damage (i.e. BEING A GOOD TANK) counts against your decay time
SnB IB's use more abilities that dump grudge than 2h vengeance IBs. If we are trying to tank effectively, we forego damage in order to use the grudge we've built
If we use any of our cc/defensive abilities that prevents us from taking damage, we're hit with a double whammy - no grudge accumulated + grudge dumped from using an ability
Now we sit at 0 grudge with useless buffs and virtually nil damage.
What other class's mechanic is dependent upon actions OTHER people take against them, and not the actions they take against others? Yes, this is the KEY issue here - rising anger aside (which no longer prevents grudge decay if in a state of decay anyways), in the best situations, we have little control over the accumulation of a necessary class resource. We cannot spam a key to prevent grudge decay from happening like the class this nerf was modeled after.


That is all.

Quoted For Truth.

Please guys in USA submit this in the Public Test Server.

Mythic is hitting hard the Order with this severe and non-sense nerf.




I'm sure it's been asked, but there are a lot of pages:
How does scavenging hurt in PvE?

Let's say the last time you're hit in PvE is two seconds before the mob dies (unlikely, but possible). That's 8 seconds before the Grudge starts to decay.

Now let's say you loot the corpse, that takes 1 second. 7 seconds before the decay starts.

Now let's say you scavenge, that takes 2 seconds. 5 seconds before the decay starts.

Unless you're pulling multiple mobs, you should have plenty of time before the decay even starts, let alone before you reach 0.

Congrats.

You really took out the essential argument of the post. There are no more important facts told here.

[Zeebie]

I'm sure it's been asked, but there are a lot of pages:
How does scavenging hurt in PvE?

Let's say the last time you're hit in PvE is two seconds before the mob dies (unlikely, but possible). That's 8 seconds before the Grudge starts to decay.

Now let's say you loot the corpse, that takes 1 second. 7 seconds before the decay starts.

Now let's say you scavenge, that takes 2 seconds. 5 seconds before the decay starts.

Unless you're pulling multiple mobs, you should have plenty of time before the decay even starts, let alone before you reach 0.

that gives you 5 seconds to find, attack, and get hit by a mob. it takes 10 seconds to lose all grudge, considering after the first fight most the time you can be at about 50-60 grudge, if that mob is more then an axe throw away, you will be at 0

[Nytalia]

SnB tanks DO NOT maintain 100 grudge at all times, or even most of the time. We cycle through grudge, build up, use it, build up.

No, we cannot effectively tank if we are sitting at 0 grudge more often than not.

Shall I break it down for you?



Grudge is built either by being hit, or via another Oath Friended player being hit
If you are the primary tank (which is what we SnBers tend to be), you are getting little, if anything out of oath friend (aside from buffing your OF)
Per patch 1.05, grudge begins to decay 10 seconds after the last grudge was built
Grudge decays at a rate of 10g/second
Grudge can and will decay in combat if you go 10 seconds without being hit - using crowd control abilities or ANYTHING that prevents you from taking damage (i.e. BEING A GOOD TANK) counts against your decay time
SnB IB's use more abilities that dump grudge than 2h vengeance IBs. If we are trying to tank effectively, we forego damage in order to use the grudge we've built
If we use any of our cc/defensive abilities that prevents us from taking damage, we're hit with a double whammy - no grudge accumulated + grudge dumped from using an ability
Now we sit at 0 grudge with useless buffs and virtually nil damage.

What other class's mechanic is dependent upon actions OTHER people take against them, and not the actions they take against others? Yes, this is the KEY issue here - rising anger aside (which no longer prevents grudge decay if in a state of decay anyways), in the best situations, we have little control over the accumulation of a necessary class resource. We cannot spam a key to prevent grudge decay from happening like the class this nerf was modeled after.

That is all.

Hey bubeleh, I appreciate the quote, just make sure you give credit ^_~ <3

[the44thnight]

Wait so let me get this, finally the FOTM IB is *kind* on the even playing field as 3 other tanks now everyone are drowning in tears.

Lets be serious for a sec, IB still have the luxury of the grudge system which is far more beneficial than BO and SW's 3 steps "use 2 useless skills so you can use something useful IF target is still in range and u are not knockbacked, rooted, disarmed, disabled" BS mechanic.

What this patch really does is to sepreate the good IB players and the bad IB players. And yes i have seen plenty horrible BWs in T4 that still dont have a clue how to play.

[quik77]

has everyone put in feedback on the PTS for this? (I'm remembering the the 4 people who said make the feathers bigger from the beta talks lol)

If all it takes is like 4 IB giving feedback on the PTS if everyone on this thread gives feedback it should hopefully make them rethink this or at the very least make every hit you would of taken build grudge.

ie. on dodge/block/disrupt/parry "you you almost hit me!"

and yeah grudge decay being so short now is completely against what you would think it should be, hell when I first read about the mechanic is thought it would have a part that worked like this the each person who has gotten a killing blow on you in the past 24 hours gives you additional grudge when they attack you, and as long as enemys that had made you build grudge were within 100 feet you'd keep that grudge lol.

[Trobbles]

Hey bubeleh, I appreciate the quote, just make sure you give credit ^_~ <3


Just trying to spread the wisdom. :|

[Nytalia]

Just trying to spread the wisdom. :|

No qualms here, just saying. =)

I've been working ridiculous amounts of OT lately so I haven't been able to get on PTS in the past few days - has anything changed since PTS launch? Has 10/5/3 been implemented?

I really have no issues with how oathfriend scales. It's the decay timer that's driving me batty. It also seems to be the one issues the IBs are demanding a response to that is going unheard.

Scale my 100 grudge damage back. Make oathfriend scale. But for the love of all that is short and drunk, DON'T allow me to lose grudge while in combat. It's madness. Cats and dogs, living together - MASS HYSTERIA.

[Crode]

Did I just read that correctly? He said IB's are the FOTM? :confused:

[Trobbles]

No qualms here, just saying. =)

I've been working ridiculous amounts of OT lately so I haven't been able to get on PTS in the past few days - has anything changed since PTS launch? Has 10/5/3 been implemented?

I really have no issues with how oathfriend scales. It's the decay timer that's driving me batty. It also seems to be the one issues the IBs are demanding a response to that is going unheard.

Scale my 100 grudge damage back. Make oathfriend scale. But for the love of all that is short and drunk, DON'T allow me to lose grudge while in combat. It's madness. Cats and dogs, living together - MASS HYSTERIA.

Bump :!: Cmon Mythic, we know you'll do the right thing.

[Broloc]

there's nothing constructive about your post bro

Traytor, the first thing I heard was broken was 'Ironbreakers and Bright Wizards' when I started playing this game.. actually heard that a few times. I consistently see IB top the damage charts by 8-10k in Tier 2... not necessarily all the time, but enough.

Tier 2 is the most important part of the game apparently.

[Wrektem]

They're nerfing sorc dark magic and BW combustion heavily...and as it stands they already have an incredibly short decay, By the time the decay is gone I haven't recouped my HP when out of combat and must often pause after I've scavenged. The IB doesn't seem to have that problem.

I would suggest chaining a few mobs then scavenging a few mobs at a time to reduce downtime. IMO the change is fair in terms of decay because largely we're talking about downtime out of combat, which other classes share or have it worse.

If all classes were created equally for PvE zealots could mow down mobs like a marauder.

[AODEaSyKiLL]

They're nerfing sorc dark magic and BW combustion heavily...and as it stands they already have an incredibly short decay, By the time the decay is gone I haven't recouped my HP when out of combat and must often pause after I've scavenged. The IB doesn't seem to have that problem.

I would suggest chaining a few mobs then scavenging a few mobs at a time to reduce downtime. IMO the change is fair in terms of decay because largely we're talking about downtime out of combat, which other classes share or have it worse.

If all classes were created equally for PvE zealots could mow down mobs like a marauder.


The downtime doesn't start out of combat. The downtime starts the last time you get hit. Big difference.

[Timmeh]

I'm just going to play a BW, or maybe an RP or my ENG until Mythic wakes up. I still don't understand the harshness of this change. Are tanks overpowered in RVR at all? Not at all! Instead of nerfing IBs I think they should be boosting all tanks to 1.04 IB.

[Ralloszek]

*edited for content*

[golbleen]

*edited for content*

[AODEaSyKiLL]

*edited for content*

[Theoric Ironfist]

Just get cultivating instead.

Flowers are for sissies :shock:

[golbleen]

*edited for content*

[caj190]

*edited for content*

[Takauri]

Grudge attacks?

I don't know wether to laugh or cry.

Did either of you even read the the posts explaining what the problem is with the proposed grudge decay mechanism or the fact you that will see a LOT more dps IB's if this change goes through?

[Asha'man-WHA]

Please remember that all posts in this forum are being moderated under a zero tolerance policy and all violations result in immediate suspensions. For reference, you should review the MUST READ (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184901) notice at the top of the forum. Quite a few people have received suspensions from inappropriate posts in this thread and if the trend continues, we'll have to come back and lock it. In short, if you have an opinion regardless of whether it is positive or negative, it must possess a baseline level of respect, and it must encourage productive discussion. We are not asking you NOT to post negative feedback, but that it actually has something the devs can take away from it they can use. Thanks!

[Crode]

Lol this thread has more dead people than in a 1.05 scenario. :p:p:p

[Sturmpanzer]

But on the other hand, how can you justify being able to use abilities that are INSANELY powerful at 100 Grudge at ALL times?

75% armor debuff for 20 seconds, 750 instant aoe damage etc. - you have to pay dearly for it, don't you?

Imo, the change is much needed to bring IBs more in line with 3 other tanks.

[Oberanoth]

This is great news!

IB's will now be actually balanced against the other classes!

Woo hoo!

[Takauri]

But on the other hand, how can you justify being able to use abilities that are INSANELY powerful at 100 Grudge at ALL times?

75% armor debuff for 20 seconds, 750 instant aoe damage etc. - you have to pay dearly for it, don't you?

Imo, the change is much needed to bring IBs more in line with 3 other tanks.

I agree that there needs to be some balancing however the IB 75% armour debuff is the only one that Order get, and you must be at 100 grudge to use it - with these changes a tanking IB will never get to 100 grudge.

This nerfs tanking IB's extremely hard whilst barely touching those dps IB's hitting you with that AOE (which by the way costs 10 points in the Brotherhood tree to get) and other dps skills at max grudge because they never spend it.

The biggest change that this nerf will bring is that most IB's will spec Vengeance for max dps. They will not spend grudge and once they are 100 they will be doing insane damage to everyone - and so the nerf calls will continue, whilst the tanking IBs (who need to spend grudge to use their protective skills, buffs and cc) are nerfed into oblivion.

It definately needs to be balanced but this is not the way to do it. While trying to support my team and doing pathetic dps because I spend grudge on protection skills and nobody hits me, I will lose ALL of my grudge because I am not a threat.

How can it be fair to lose your "fuel" to use your mechanism while you are IN combat because the enemy are smart enough to not attack you? No other class depends on the enemy to create that fuel for them.

I will have to change spec from tanking (which I love) to mdps in order to still play my class - and I don't want to dps!

If they are hell bent on putting this on live they can at least make it so that if we hit someone we gain 1 grudge to prevent the decay timer from kicking in but even then if we get rooted or knocked back we will lose all of our grudge and waste the last minute or so of constant combat that was used to build up the grudge we had. A solution that I believe we could handle would be to decay after 10 seconds of being out of combat, or if it absolutely has to start after we last get hit then keep it at 30 seconds.

The only comparison I can think of at the moment would be if they were proposing a change to BO/SM plans to reset if they are not hit within 2 seconds or Chosen auras to drop if they are not being hit. How frustrating would it be if you cannot use your most powerful/useful skills unless someone was beating on you within a small time frame or you lose your fuel? Everyone would completely ignore all tanks if that happened, which is exactly what is going to happen to IBs.

As I said, I agree we need some kind of balancing to happen but making our grudge decay after 10 seconds of not being hit is not the way to do it. The only thing that will do is make the Order tank population dwindle even more and most of those that do continue to play their IB will switch to DPS - amplifying the problems that destro players are having with IBs because they will in fact be doing more damage than they are now due to the DOT changes.

Personally I think they should go with the 10/5/3 change to building grudge that they have proposed (even though it goes completely against the lore!), change the decay to 10 seconds out of combat (at which point it can reset completely if needs be), increase the bonus to damage from grudge at the low end and lower the bonus to damage for grudge at the high end.

[YourEcstasy]

id vote for a 20 sec decay.. 10 seems really to low

[Rakavich]

If 1.05 goes through with Nerfs for IBs still in it, Surely this indicates that Mythic feel Order is too powerful.. and I for one don't like playing on the powerful side I prefer the Underdog... which must be destro as why would you nerf a core class on the underpopulated side otherwise...

So I say to all IBs Mythic does not seem to want us to play IBs or Order so lets all roll Destro and hey lets make it BGs... we still get to keep the so called OVERPOWERED grudge like system but we get to play for the side Mythic wants everyone to play also.. Win Win situation...

Oh but will who will we fight.. when Order starts to quit due to even worse Realm population balance... Hmmm

[Sturmpanzer]

those dps IB's hitting you with that AOE (which by the way costs 10 points in the Brotherhood tree to get).

You need 10 points in Discord for quake aswell. Do you know for how much it hits? less than 100.

Chosen's auras got nerfed so badly in closed beta that they hardly have any use anyway. Only if you're playing solo. And then, Chosen is a very bad solo class (in pvp)

So, as i see it, you either have to work VERY hard to get to 100 grudge or those skills should be halved in their usefulness.

Or buff other tanks.

[Takauri]

Hell yeah buff other tanks, especially Chosen and SM

[Callibys]

I agree with others that Grudge should NOT decay while youre still in combat.

Personally I feel there should be a trade-off besides Oathfriend. Get rid of Oathfriend altogether, and give them a straight time-based grudge build if they ARENT being hit. I would think that being a tank and a dwarf and being ignored in the middle of combat would really piss one off the longer it goes. Make it so it doesn't take 10 seconds to build the 100 grudge, but it doesn't take 2 full minutes either. This ensures that most IBs won't just be ignored in RvR now and have to opt for a dps build to be useful, and also would make smart players think twice about completely ignoring the IB running around in the back ranks.

[Cress]

Blocked/Parried attacks should generate Grudge.

[Jesper]

You need 10 points in Discord for quake aswell. Do you know for how much it hits? less than 100.

well, last time i've checked Quake had a 65 ft CAoE range and had a 2s KNOCKDOWN attached to it. I'd trade the damage for the aoe KD anyday, if only i could...

[Smasher78]

I honestly have no problem with the nerf. The cooldown could be a bit longer, but it always felt way, waay too easy to get grudge before.

[Trobbles]

I honestly have no problem with the nerf. The cooldown could be a bit longer, but it always felt way, waay too easy to get grudge before.

Don't worry, soon you wont have any grudge at all! Go you!

[Smasher78]

Don't worry, soon you wont have any grudge at all! Go you!
Honestly it wouldn't be such a problem if they had actually done something to close the gap between tanks/melee and RDPS. Within their own archetype, I find that IB is somewhat "ahead of the pack", but compared to what RDPS get to do that's like winning the special olympics, for lack of a better term.

I, however, will remain faithful to my career. There are plenty of Swordmasters and Chosen who have had, and will continue to have it much worse off than us, and they're still playing their careers.

The balance see-saw is going to tip back and forth violently for a very long while; I doubt we'll see it settle at a comfortable place for any concerned parties for at least half a year.

Again, the only problem with this change I can see is the excessively-short "cooling off" timer being implemented, which should probably be at least doubled or tripled from what it is now.

It could be worse.

[Gramps]

It amazes me that people think this is effective balancing of the IB - it's simply not.

It won't affect burst damage, because IB's will just wait a little longer before jumping into their burst damage sequences. The hard hitting skills still don't cost any grudge.

Grudge decay in scenarios will hopefully only happen occasionally (theorycrafting here), once IB's get used to the annoying task of constantly changing OF to stave off the decay (which is a PITA, btw). Though I also think decay should take longer to kick in.

How hard an IB is to drop in a scenario probably won't change much. If the IB is getting hit, then they'll have access to their buffing/tanking abilities.

The issues, as I see it, are mainly with tanking/support and PvE.
A tanking IB can't protect the squishies properly in RvR because most of the support stuff costs a lot of grudge. The IB isn't getting hit, the squishy is, and squishies can't take enough hits to be reliable grudge generators.
Likewise with off-tanking in dungeons etc - generation isn't enough to keep the buffs up & running.

It's like all the things that players (who don't know the IB very well) complain about are only changing a little (or will stay the same with a slightly different play style) and the stuff that no one really complains about are taking a hit.
Skills that were borderline useful because of grudge costs will be avoided completely.

Makes no sense.

[Chaot]

Gramps your sig is priceless

much lolage here

[Smasher78]

Instead of directly-toning down the abilities, they're attempting to add relevancy to the IB's mechanic and adjust the cost-efficiency of said abilities. It's the same approach card designers take to Magic: The Gathering: You don't tone down the card's power, you make the card cost more mana.

This has the additional benefit of making Grudge an actual class resource. If you're constantly up on Grudge for most of a fight - then what's the point of having Grudge in the game in the first place? That'd be like Sorcs having no backlash*, Auras being free to twist, and Swordmasters being able to retain Perfect Balance indefinitely.

And the other tanking careers lack the "Support stuff" that you "need" to protect the squishies. SM/BO has mostly self-buffs, Chosen auras are laughable in their current form. Challenge, Taunt, Guard and Hold The Line, along with Knockbacks and Snares, can go a long way on their own.

*Does not necessarily reflect this poster's opinion regarding whether the combustion/dm mechanics are working as the design intended.

[Jirsted]

Welcome to a class mechanic that works?

Maybe we should give the Bright Wizard/Sorceress mechanic a 30 second decay time too, that would rock!

I'm sure someone else already laughed at you for this, but i can't bother to read this entire thread atm. I just had to point out that BW and sorc can control their combustion/DM decay. Keep casting, and it doesnt decay. IB has no control over whether or not people attack them, so your point is completely invalid and laughable. :roll:

[Athea]

Yeah grudge decay rate should still be same as it is on live 1.04. After 30sec. Not being able to hold 100 grudge makes IB pretty useless. The game seems to be made that having IB's on 100 grudge whilst using abilities that cost grudge to make dmg/buffs/etc which reduces our grudge to a lower level which means we got lower damage till we get our grudge up again.

But as someone said they're doing it the wrong way since now they're lowering the cost of some grudge abilities AND lowering the speed you gain grudge also making it harder to maintain grudge, now thats redicilous becouse some our abilities scale with grudge. It seems like you dont want us to reach 100 grudge. So I think it's the wrong direction we're going to but to make it bareable, please let the grudge decay version stay at 1.04.

Also another question is why is the mechanic built up 25-50-75-100. It seems pretty strange system, I'd rather have it like BW's/Sorc like 10-29/30-69/70-89/90-100(or however it is havent really played bws/sorc but its something like that). It makes more sence as well. Having grudge mechanic like that will not really increase our damage or anything it's just that it will be more simple.

Another suggestion. Increase the buffs which got 10 secs duration to 20 secs, and slightly higher the grudge cost. Having an ability simply spam every 5 clicks is really anoying most people don't even consider using certain abilities becouse it doesn't last long enough before you have to spend grudge on it again. The Abilities as follows, Oathbound, Watch 'An Lern, Ancestor's Fury. I probably forgot some but it makes no sence that all our other buffs are 20 seconds but these are 10 secs. Even 20 seconds buffs are anoying to hold up. And when they are more one 10 second durations buff abilities you'd like to have up at the same time it's just a pain, and not worth it.

just my thoughts

Edited: made it a bit more clear

[Gramps]

Don't forget that knockback costs grudge too :P
The other classes have tools to look after the squishies too ya know. All the tanks Knockbacks and knockdowns to varying degrees.

I get what they're trying to do, Smash, and think it should be a class resource - I just think they're going the wrong way about doing it & hitting the wrong areas too hard.

IMO the abilities that scale with grudge need a grudge cost associated with them, with more powerfully scaling abilities costing more grudge. Would make sense to have the grudge cost scale based on how much grudge you have, too.

Decay should only kick in when the IB is out of combat.

The reason people are crying nerf is because thats effectively what it is.. it's not balance, because the damage is still there. It's like they're gimping some areas of play while leaving the ones that everyone thinks they possibly should balance almost untouched.

I don't think many people are arguing that IB's should be at full grudge all the time. Mostly, from what I've read, it's more that decay is far too harsh and there's STILL no real incentive to spend grudge.
With how things are set up on the PTR currently, the only way people spend grudge is through decay, which isn't how things should work

edit: can't take credit, Chaot. It's a quote from these forums ;)

[Smasher78]

IMO the abilities that scale with grudge need a grudge cost associated with them, with more powerfully scaling abilities costing more grudge. Would make sense to have the grudge cost scale based on how much grudge you have, too.

This would make sense, actually. It might require re-scaling of some of the grudge-scaling abilities, but it would be a lot less headachey to balance and make sense of than the current system. Some abilities cost Grudge! Some don't but scale with it! Others generate grudge when the Great Old Ones are..Okay, not really.